Bookwild - Purity Culture, Power, and the Women Who Survive: Kristi DeMeester on Dark Sisters

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

This week, Kristi DeMeester shares how her new novel Dark Sisters emerged from a collision of personal history, cultural rage, and the disturbing ease with which faith, patriarchy, and power can be weaponized. We discuss purity culture, megachurch hypocrisy, witch-trial history, feminist reclamation, the generational impact of religious fundamentalism, and how horror can become a perfect container for social truth-telling, female rage, and bittersweet hope.Check out the book here:Dark Sisters by Kristi DeMeester Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Christy Demester about her new horror novel, Dark Sisters. I am obsessed. If you were here for the Women of Wild Hill episode recently with Kirsten Miller, this is right in that vein. Like if you're a fan of that, you're going to love this. I would almost call this like the R-rated version of it. But here is the synopsis. In this fiercely captivating novel, horror meets historical fiction when a curse bridges. generations, binding the fates of three women. Anne Bolton, a healer-facing persecution for witchcraft, bargains with a dark entity for protection, but the fire she unleashes will reverberate for centuries. Mary Shepard, a picture-perfect wife in a suffocating community, falls for Sharon

and begins a forbidden affair that could destroy them both. And Camilla Burson, the rebellious daughter of a preacher defies conformist expectations to uncover an ancient power as her father's flocks spirals into crisis. So, you know, I was all here for this for so many different reasons. There is righteous female rage. There is the exploration of how calling a woman a witch was a way to discredit her and discount her and get rid of her. We have a girl who's a pastor's daughter, just trying to figure out what she actually believes compares to what she grew up around. It is fantastic. And it's one of those books where just because there's this one other timeline that's like in the 1700s,

it doesn't feel like true historical fiction, but you're just kind of like getting good context for what's happening by having that chapter. I really loved getting to talk to Christy about it because she also used to be a literature teacher. And so some of the witch stories and lore and how she kind of approached that, it was really cool to hear these examples that she had from her time as a teacher. And then also how her experience in really high demand religion growing up inspired some of the stories. So that being said, let's hear from Christy.

I am so excited to talk about Dark Sisters with Christy Demester. Um, but I did want to get to know a little bit about you first before we dive into the book. So what was your journey to writing? Like, did you always know you wanted to or like how did that all come together? It's really funny. So I came to writing really late, which is strange to be because I feel like I hear from so many other writers who they started writing when they were children, that they were putting little books together and stafling them and all of that. And I was always a reader. He was my number one activity, my number one hobby, and loved it, loved it, loved it, but never really, like I dabbled in writing, but it was never anything that

I really took seriously. I would write really, shitty poems when I was in high school, full of, you know, whoever I had a crush on at the moment, super angsty. But I didn't start taking it seriously until I was in my late 20s and I was looking to go back and get my master's degree and I really didn't want to get it in education because I was a teacher and I just the idea of having to go and sit through school again for more education-based pedagogical crap I just went no I really I can't do it not for me and so I the school that I was looking at at also had a master's program in professional writing. And I went, well, I've always loved reading. And I like the concept of writing. So I'll just do that. And then all of a sudden,

it was like this door opened. And I went, oh, this is what I was supposed to be doing this entire time. I can't believe that I didn't ever think to jump to the other side and try it from the other end and from there it was really just a lot of short stories a lot of kind of you know sharpening your teeth and and learning the ins and outs of how things should be and once as part of my program I had to do a portion of a novel as kind of like your your thesis and once I did that I knew I went okay I'm going to take some time to learn who I am as a writer what works for me but it doesn't work for me, but I'm going to get back to novel writing at some point. And it took about 10 years to really get to the point where I felt comfortable

your novel writing and even that first novel was. It's got to be so intimidating. And it exists and it's in the world. And, you know, I'm a very different writer now than I was then. But it's, I don't think I really started doing novel stuff until I was in my 30s. That's cool, though. So you never know. Like, it's like, obviously, if you want to write, you typically do need to read a lot.

So it's like you kind of had built up that part of being a writer for years and years and years. It's just, it is. I think sometimes it is hard to be like, am I a writer? Could I write something? Like, you just don't think of it always. Yes. And especially as someone who already has imposter syndrome where you walk. going, not me. I can't. And I could never. And so it took a while to swallow it. Even now when I

meet people for the first time and they ask me, you know, what do you do? What do you do for work? I have a very hard time saying, well, I'm a writer. Yeah. Because it still doesn't feel that that's not a real job. What are you talking about? I know. You've written so many books now too. Like the Imposter Syndrome is just sticking with you. Yeah, that's a friend I think I'll never be rid of. I think that's coming with me forever. Yeah, that one, that one is tricky. It's just super tricky.

Yeah. What, so you do write, I think, all horror. There may be some that aren't. Is there, was there something specifically that drew you to horror? Or when you started writing, was that just like what was in your head? I have always been a horror fan or horror girly and was always my favorite genre. It was always what I gravitated to to read, to watch. But I didn't write it for a very long time, particularly when I started in my MFA because,

and I think a lot of people who come out of MFA programs will tell you genre is frowned upon. Oh, yeah. I think that's getting better now. I know that my schools program now, they're great. They offer genre-based classes. And so I think that that window is, really opened but at least back then you didn't do that you didn't right just a quick question because i've heard this conversation too like genre movies and genre books and so in the context of an mfay are they is it kind of like literary fiction is like what they're saying is like writing and then it because it's like i feel like everything has a genre but when people use that term it typically means like not literary fiction maybe exactly that's really how they defined it of

They really wanted that strict literary tradition of, you know, Hemingway and Faulkner with the serial numbers, like, brushed off, which is great of, you know, I think three years and they have their place and they're wonderful, but not what I'm inclusive. Yeah. Yeah, not what I wanted at all. And so once I, and it's actually really funny because once I started working on my, on that thesis, that portion of the novel, it was in literary tradition. and my wonderful advisors sat me down at some point and said, I think you're writing a horror novel. Oh, why don't you just do that? And I went, like, all were twists like with my head.

Yes. And so finally, it was, so, and it's so strange that someone else has to give you permission to do the thing that you really want to do. I think with creative stuff specifically. Yeah. It's, why can't I just do this thing? But I said, okay. And so from then, it was.

was strictly horror of I've well and I've dabbled I guess really in the beginning of writing short stories it was more like weird fiction is I guess what you would call it or cosmic just because that was the where I was leaning but in my heart it's always been horror I love it I love it so much I got I used to like mostly be a thriller reader and now I'm reading kind of like almost everything except romance nothing against romance it's it's me it's not the genre um but i like probably about 18 months ago i read a book no road home by john fram and it it like uses horror similar to dark sisters in a in a social sense and i was like oh this is fun like the different things that horror can talk about and like uh kind of what am i trying to say like almost hyperboise for the sake of like really talking about things that are actually happening So I got so obsessed with horror, and I've just been reading all the horror that I can this year, so I'm with you on that. I love it.

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Horror is a great genre for a kind of social commentary as well because, and I've talked about this in other places, but I mean, it's the genre of monsters. And so it's a really great opportunity to take a monster. and say, okay, can we take this and look at how all of these smaller events that maybe we don't pay attention to become monstrous? And it's a, I think it's a, it's an easy door for people to open because in their minds, oh, it's, it's just a spooky book. It's just and you're going, no, I'm actually, there's actually other things here. And then at the end, all of a sudden, oh, well, I never thought it that way. Yes. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I completely agree. It was kind of what even got me into some historical fiction because historical horror

kind of exactly what you're saying there where historical horror can really show you like, oh, these are the things that have led to even like what our society is like now, basically. Which is a cool segue is that you have three different timelines going on in Dark Sisters. And so we get, like, all the way back to the 1700s, correct? Yeah, the 1700s. We have 1950 and we have 2008, 2006. Yeah, that's just completely missed it on both things. Yeah, we got it.

And so that's, it's kind of another really good example of that. So, kind of what was your inspiration for this story? And did you always know you wanted to tell? it that way? I didn't. And it was, it was through a lot of trial and error. It's, it's interesting that this book, well, I mean, honestly, with it being three timelines, it was particularly difficult to write. Just in wanting to make sure that the, not only the voices of the characters are distinct, and they each have their own things that are propelling them forward, but then also that you're capturing the authenticity of that time period to the best of, well, I guess I should say,

it's the best of my ability. Right. And that that can get true. tricky. I bet. But it honestly, the whole core of the story started with the dark sisters themselves as just as an entity. I'd written a very different book where they were mentioned but not heavily featured. And as I was writing that book, what they came to represent, I really liked the fact that they were serving as this mirror for a society to say, this is what happens when all of these small things add up. And this is the curse that comes out of it when we just tend to ignore or put things into the corner or let these very small moments of misogynistic insults happen.

And so I came to the end of that book and my agent, who was wonderful and very, very smart, just said, listen, there's a lot of books on the market with this exact same premise right now because it was about grooming, like a teacher, a student. And I just don't think now is the time. And so I said, okay, that's fair. But I couldn't let go of them, of what they were. And then it just felt very like, it felt like kismet where everything just lined up, just right. I was doing a lot of journaling about my childhood and dealing with purity culture.

Yes. And growing up in a fundamentalist religion. And so I already had that. Oh. Yeah, I loved that. I resonated with that. timeline a lot. I'm also a pastor's kids. So you got it from both. Oh, bless. Yeah. So it's, it was one of those things where and it's interesting. People that I've talked to that have had

similar experiences, it clicks. And yes, I feel like for some people who have it, they feel that I'm exaggerating. I'm like, no. Not even a little bit. Well, maybe not. Well, that's true. you're not a portion because that's the horrific component that i'm trying to get it in there but so i so that was happening i was doing a lot of journaling a lot of like kind of reminiscing on those experiences and then roe v weight was overturned wow and i went wow and it really felt like a punch in the gut yes and so i still had the idea of the dark sisters in my mind and And then I, and all of these things were swirling and happening. And so I had just started writing, just kind of free writing without really any intention.

And then Camilla's story started to come out of that. And then I went, okay, I think I have something now. And then as I was building her story of, I have to have a foundation of why this is happening. And then the, and then Anne's timeline came. Yeah. And then as I was going through and I was talking with my agent about the book and she said, I think we need one more perspective to really hinge how all of this connects. And so that was when Mary's timeline came in.

Yeah. So it was a long, arduous process of learning it all together. But really, the foundations were I was, I was pissed. I feel it. I am too. And I felt it. I was pissed. And so that's where it came from.

Yeah. Yeah. The thing that's a couple of different. different things. I've been learning a lot about Christian nationalism. And that really originated so much at the end of the 50s and going into the 60s. So I feel like that timeline was so important, too, because that was kind of where I read a book called Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Du Maas. And I think she has another last name. But it's all about how. politicians saw an opportunity with Christianity to get voters. And then that's where this like

prevalence of like actually very hyper-masculine, um, Jesus, thus the Jesus and John Wayne, like, yeah, in my interpretation, in some other people's interpretations, Jesus actually had some feminist qualities. If we look at him historically and like the way that he took care of people. And it was that time period where, where they were like, let's, like, kind of convince people like you're a good American if you're a good Christian and this is what a good Christian looks like and I just kind of tapped into how easy it is to control people through religion. So that's been something I've been learning about a lot more this year because I too am pissed about a lot of stuff and I found that reading nonfiction has at least it helps me feel grounded

and like I know things that happened and it made me feel less like I could be gaslit. so that just like worked for me um so yeah that that middle timeline i think is kind of a good bridge of like and then this is kind of how we started really going towards misogyny not that we were ever matriarchal or anything in this country but yeah yeah i'll have to look that book up because yeah i'll send you a link and it's fantastic and i just i interviewed a guy a couple weeks ago his name's John Fugel saying and he wrote a book called Separation of Church and Hate and talks like he talks about his his log line is like his mom was a sister she was a nun and his dad was a brother a Franciscan monk and so his kind he's also a comedian so he's like my mother who was my mother who

was a sister met a brother or a brother who was a monk and they got married so a brother and sister got married and had me. It's like how he kind of explains it, but he got tired of, he's like, I got tired of people using like the religion that I saw my parents using for good and helping people and using it as a way to like cloak their hatred. So it's really powerful too. And he kind of writes it from the perspective of if you're in conversations with people who are mixing politics and Christianity, the Bible is actually probably more on your side than there. And so then it kind of helps you have dialogue where you're like, tell them, he's like, if they're going to be Bible thumpers, thump them back with the Bible.

And I'm like, that is so powerful. Absolutely. And that was the thing that as I was going, well, not just as I was growing up and disconnecting from a lot of these very deep-seated, longstanding feelings and ideologies that I had growing up in that religion. But as I was writing, that was something. that I wanted to make certain that I brought to the forefront of and I and I also hope readers take away from the book as well of I'm like I'm not hating on faith as as a concept of what I am

frustrated with is how easily faith can be manipulated to benefit greed to benefit hypocrisy and how frequently that happens yes and how and it is lots of religions it's not even just Christianity. Yeah, it's not Western exclusively and it's not Christianity exclusively. It's it's anyone who is corrupted that is in a position of power and a position where you're a leader of a faith-based whatever. And that that was what was so deeply impactful. And I think Mary's storyline, Camilla's storyline, and Mary's is even double-edged because you start to believe that the reason for your own unhappiness and the reason for your own sense of I'm doing wrong is you. Yes. even though it's these external things that are pressuring you or telling you you're doing wrong or you are not living to expectation of a security culture thing is unbelievable to me. Yes. That I believed for a very long time that if someone, if I caught, if a man sinned, if he had a thought that was about me because I wore a shirt that was too long.

It was my fault. Same. And that is just insane, like taking zero responsibility. Because I've had people ask me before, too, about the purity balls. Oh, does that really happen? Yes, they really happen. Oh, did you do one?

Yes, I did one. What did the boys do? Nothing. Nothing. They did nothing? Did they have one? No, they did not have one. Did they have to pledge their virginities to their mothers?

No. They didn't have to wear their rings. The purity ring. It was a purity ring. of it that it was um it was all it was only us and then it's couched in this very attractive wrapping paper um you want to wear a basically a prom dress or basically a wedding dress don't you want get a really nice piece of jewelry a party just for you and wear it sarah get your hair of course yes totally yeah yeah and i think the other thing that is so i guess interesting is the word for it

about that dynamic is it's also hurting the men like in the sense that like it's it's propagating this idea it's it is like a this other side of purity culture where they're like you're bad if you have that thought and then the next thing is but you can blame women for it so we have it's the same thing where they're still kind of being told like you're not supposed to even have those thoughts, which actually the thoughts in general are okay if you saw a hot woman and you were like, oh, she's beautiful. Or like, it's okay if you notice it. Just don't rape her, please. Like, let's, let's not do that. But it's hurting them just as much because it's like doing that same programming where it's like you're a bad person for having that thought.

Right. And then it's extending the like, but it's women's fault, not your fault. Yes, because it's also programming that you're not in control of your own body. Yes. And that it's okay if you're not in control of your own body and that's that's equally awful right it perpetuates it all right of because then you get you get to internalize and externalize the shame that you feel yeah so it's none of it's good and it was it was yeah that as i was writing there were certain scenes and certain moments that i was having flashbacks and going I know for me it happens sometimes now I've been removed for it for about 13 years now so it is one of those things where like in general I'm not thinking about it that much in my day to day and it's also because I did therapy in my 20s like it's not like I just magically left and it went away but every now and then kind of what you're saying every now and then like I see something in the news lately and I'm like oh that was what I grew up around. That's kind of, that is weird. Right. Yes. Yeah. Because that was one of the other

moments of what, because I was also, our church was a wasn't, even though it was fundamentalist Pentecostal, it was also a megachurch and that materialism and money was really important. Yeah, the prosperity gospel. Yes. That it's, you know, having money means that God chose you. And God blessed you because you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. And so all of a sudden, in that sense of putting on the show becomes really important as well very which again is so ironic considering everything that jesus actually teaches right that's what i've been learning yeah of it it was i lost where i was going oh well it's okay okay yeah the the idea of the megachurch is it couldn't be like this that is the kind of stuff that had jesus flipping tables is basically

what i come back to i'm like he he did not like big power like that that is so easily corrupted right absolutely and and that was i think that that was the biggest takeaway as you're right you do a lot of therapy when you come out of it because and it took me a little longer to get to it but and it was all of a sudden this awareness of let's really look at the reality of what's happening here and evaluate the logic and in it. And everything, and it turns your world upside down because everything that you just is truth and what was normal. And all of a sudden, it's wait, it's not. Okay. So I love to ask other people who grew up this question. And I hope you don't mind because I'm open about it.

Yeah. So you grew up in it. Yes. Yes. A Methodist church. Yeah. So children I have always, I find are very perceptive. They are highly emotionally intelligent. And, they pick up on things very, very easily. They may just not know how to articulate them or they're told that they're not allowed to articulate those. If you were a kid, did you clock when things were hypocritical and be like, okay. I remember saying to like, so I had a, mine, I was extremely sheltered too. So like even Camilla is like having more friendships than I was even allowed to have. we were very much in the world and not of the world family like is it dobson i can't think of his first name like focus on the family yes focused on the family like veggie tales into middle school

cable tv was shameful oh yeah oh yeah you didn't have tv or no neither i so i had like none of those references but i remember at one point saying to someone when i was like at school and away from home and being like, I just wish that I just wish it could be, I could like have an argument with my mom that was moderated like in court. I remember saying that to her. I mean, I just wish I was like, because I feel like it doesn't make sense, but no one cares when I'm making sense. So yeah, yeah, it was there. I didn't know what to do about it until I got to college. But the, I was definitely aware of it. Oh, yes. And because it does. They're the babies. The babies. The babies. I love it. It makes you feel crazy. It really does because you're being told all of these things and then you're watching someone do the exact opposite, but you're not allowed to point and say, but why is that okay?

Right. Right. I was hardcore. Like the purity culture was very, very, very intense. My first stop. Stop. I'm trying to talk about something very important. he's mad for us my first sex talk my dad put a glass of water on the table and like crumpled leaves into it and then crumpled dirt into it and then put rocks in it and then handed it to me and was like can you make the water clean again and I was like no and he was like that's what sex does and like the whole idea of like you need to have your your sex is the gift to the one spouse you're going to have so like that was that was it it that was like basically what i got yeah that's not helpful at all meanwhile my mom was sleeping

with the family best friend for eight years and everyone knew like when it completely came out no one in the church was surprised and i was just like how does this work i'm confused oh absolutely of that we had that was oh and that was the hypocrisy part of of it that just used to drive me insane because our creature, and this happened shortly after we left the church because my parents divorced, oh, that was a whole thing. My parents divorced and then we got kicked out of the church because divorce isn't allowed and we didn't have enough money to justify being able to stay. Oh. So, you know, other families had parents in the church who had been divorced in the past, but they had money. So it was like, well,

you can continue to attend the church, but your children are no longer welcome to go to school here. Mm-hmm. Okay. And so it was one of those things where we, so we leave the church and our preacher who was very well known in the apostolic realm and was, uh, famous isn't the right word, but I guess as famous as you can be in the Pentecostal, whatever. Right. And he, it was probably a year or two later, he left his wife, long, long marriage.

This man was in his 50s. I think they've been married for 30-something years and left his wife for this 22-year-old. No, that would have been. That was a choir director. No, she was, I can't think of the word now where you traveled overseas to try to convert people. like missionaries missionary thank you of um he he he ran off with her he took every bit of the money from the church oh my gosh and it was a megachurch he emptied the bank account and took off now now you would think that because of that that man would be vilified no correct he's preaching

he was preaching within the next three years like at some other mega church in texas right and so i just hearing about that and going if that doesn't sum everything up i don't know what does exactly yeah i so i had someone on just as this airs a week ago um his name is keith giles and uh i just read a book by him called the quantum gospel of mary and he digs into the gospel of mary that was excluded from the Bible because if anyone doesn't know, Jesus is crucified. And then 300 years later, Rome, who crucified him, decided which books to pull together to create the Bible. And they went like into Christianity. There was some very purposeful exclusion of female narratives included in that Bible. And so he was a really interesting conversation because he's

kind of been a theologian for years and he's written lots of books about all kinds of stuff within Christianity and then also kind of who Jesus actually was. But he was talking about he had a friend in Congress who was trying so hard to push through that like if churches wanted to be a nonprofit, the reasoning behind most churches getting to be nonprofits is they put so much back into the community is the is the reasoning. That's just all it is. And he had a friend who was trying so hard to be like if you want to have the nonprofit label as a church then like this percentage of your earnings needs to actually be going back into the community nobody wants to sign it absolutely nobody wants it to be law and i'm like it does need to be that way it's so unfair and then like

this dude's just like stealing money that was never even taxed like it's such a racket yes of it right and and that the mentality becomes well what we're giving back to the community is a sense of faith and forgiveness and it's all it's all abstract it's never anything to deal right if it's not giving back to food banks we it's not we're helping people who are unhoused of it's all this theoretical yes we're hosting a women's retreat next week and people are you know people can come and give them a free meal right well la-da-da-da and yet also even though the tithing plate goes around every week there's also fundraisers throughout the year and it just makes you wonder yes and like you mentioned earlier and i like to mention it too there are some churches who are doing it yes by

in large when you get to the megachurch level that's really specifically what we're even talking about in this context is like when there's just that much wealth yes it's kind of that was that reminded me of the thing that I forgot earlier of the other thing that I watched as I had initially started drafting the book was I think it was on HBO documentary called The Way Down. Oh, okay. It was about a woman who, a woman preacher of a megachurch who had grown that congregation because she started a weight loss program. And that was basically Jesus doesn't want you to be fat.

Dude. And my mom loved to use gluttony to fat shame. We would like leave church and she started fat. shaming. I'm like, are you kidding me? So go on. One of the seven sins. Yes. But that's not what he says for our bodies. And that's exactly what it was. And it was a whole program about for, and again, there were men involved, but it was specifically catered to women. Typically. The idea of if you're, you know, if you just pray, if you just pray a little more. If you just donate to your church a little more, you won't be fat. Oh my God.

And it was such an insidious, such an insidious kind of countercrossing of just so many things. And I had my jaw on the floor the entire time. Yeah, I want to watch this. Oh, it's fascinating because the thing is, is again, underneath that seedy underbelly of the churches were encouraging child abuse. Correct. There were a lot of weird sexual perversions happening. the leader of that church, the woman, I can't remember her name now, but if you just look up the way down and you look past her, you'll find her. She had hair to hear, you know, the higher

to Jesus. Oh, okay. I have seen, yep, okay, go ahead. But, like, she left her long-time husband and took up with some young Hollywood, want-to-be actor. And then as they were in the middle of making this documentary, she, the husband, and I think a couple other people all died in a place. plane crash. Wow. And it's, I remember watching it, though, and even though it wasn't Pentecostal, my husband and I watched it together. I said, this is how I grew up. Yes. This mentality of the way you look is so important. You both were just blown away. Yeah, it's what's really unfortunate is what I've kind of been connecting more this year is how much Christian fundamentalism, Christian nationalism, patriarchy and capitalism altogether benefit from women being weak

and as small as possible. But then like all of those together also are kind of why pedophilia is so rampant in different areas of the church, like even the Catholic church i didn't grow up in it but there's there's that there and so this like obsession with women's bodies looking like children's bodies is alarming but it's almost like all of those things together have like reinforced it over and over and over again that we should like be as small as possible absolutely and and not just that of it's this this mentality as well of a lack of it or forcing a lot forcing women to not think independently correct and if we the younger that we can stop that the better because we're not going to advance to a point of any kind of

logical independent thought and that was part of what was so disturbing even for the purity balls for me is it wasn't for eight years of yeah it's coming into your womanhood it was for 10 year olds 11-year-olds, girls, children, who don't, who may or may not even know what sex is. And don't need to know that yet. And yet, like, most of the, you hadn't had your period. And you're going through this process of saying all these things that you're pledging to your dad. And I'm going, why, why, but why are we doing it so young? I know.

What is this indoctrination really doing? Right. It still weirds me out. Obviously, if it's what you want and it's done in like a kind and loving way, I understand upholding tradition. But I still don't understand why people ask for the father, ask the father for the daughter's hand in marriage. Like that would not have gone over well if I felt like it was not my choice. Right. Right.

It is. Who's permission? Why do you need his? Like, I'm the one who's going to have to live with this man forever. isn't it me? I think it should be my choice. Right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see why I connected with this book in your writing so much. I think we know why. The other thing kind of to all of this is needing to discredit women in a way that we've been doing that for centuries is by calling them witches. So how did you, did you know like, I'm assuming you probably knew that.

you were going to be writing about witches with the dark sisters maybe um but what was it like kind of building a world around that so witchcraft and witches in general has been my one of my most favorite horror genres since day one i find it so fascinating and as i got older one of the fascination I think as a child comes in magic making and this sense of being powerless but by some magical something you're going to be granted power and that felt very wonderful as a young kid who felt like she had no control over anything and so the fascination really started there but then as I got older I never looked at witches at evil for Satan worshiping because to me, even though that's what I was told, I saw what was

happening and I went, that doesn't look bad. There was the children eating and all of that you would have in fairy tales. But even that of a lot of the time, I was like, well, that kid deserved it. Right. Hansel and Greta were eating her house. Yes. Now they deserved it. So there was that part of my brain but then I got I got older and I went into teaching and I taught for 13 years and the one consistent every year was American lit and I taught honors American literature every year oh wow so every year for those 13 years I taught the crucible and then a number of those years as I taught Scarlet Letter. And in looking at those foundational texts, because I would always try to establish

context for my students of, okay, I know that Miller, this is an allegory. We're not really talking about the same on witch trials. We're talking about the Red Scare. We're talking about the sweep of communism in the 1960s. But these things pair so well because if you go back and you look historically at what was actually happening during the witch trials during the brain times, these. accusations were, one, they were baseless, but they were fear-based. Correct.

Because it was easy, because of belief in Puritanism, to take the thing in the woods. So you're indigenous people, we don't understand, dark, and demonize them. That's devil-related. And then it was also very easy to take women who not necessarily were just, healers because that in itself that's its own ball of waxed i know the fact that it like that was a big chunk of it like that it was a wonderful resource right there that that they that were then vilified but it was more so i think that single women um women single women with money single women with land yes and i had to point that out i would point that out every year of saying you look at the

women who were accused of there was always a reason behind it. It was never witchcraft. It was jealousy. It was greed. Your land borders mine. You're a single woman. No one's going to miss you. You're easy to accuse because what are you doing over there all by yourself all day every day? And now I have your land. Now I have your cattle. Now I have your gold. And that was the true foundation of it, of it was taking. Yes. And that witchcraft for me, became about that sense of disparity, of look at women as a threat because they have something that we want. And we can call that magic, but a lot of the time, that's prosperity.

Yes. In some capacity. And we want it for ourselves. And how do we go about taking it? We vilify that thing that is actually really helpful. And one of the poems that I would teach in it along with it was a poem by Margaret Atwood. called Half-Hanged Mary. Beautiful poem and really heartbreaking.

Have you read her memoir? I just got it, but I haven't listened yet. Oh, gosh. Okay, I have it as well. It's like I have to with it. And I haven't gone through it yet. But yeah, I have to. I keep getting other books on Libby.

But there was a portion of it as well. And I explore this idea a little bit, Dark Sisters of part of what I think patriarchal bullshit does. is it also makes women too afraid to speak. And there's a section in the poem where they hank her. And because she's been accused of witchcraft and she's a woman who lives alone and she has cattle and she has land and she has money. They hang her and she's looking out over the congregation of people who have come to watch. And she's looking at all, not at the men, she's looking at all of the women.

And she's kind of mentally pointing out of each one and saying, you know, I helped you. I helped your baby who had the group, and I helped you when you were dying, and I helped flush another baby out of you and you didn't want it. But then there's this sense of release and forgiveness, because she has this moment, she's like, she could be angry. She's like, I could kind of reminiscent to the crucifixion then. Yes, yeah. Oh, absolutely. You've sin. But from a female's perspective. Yeah. I understand why you can't help me. Yeah. You would then be implicated. you would then be where I am. I know, it gives you every single time.

Control bumps and start to tear up because I said, what an ultimate, and I felt this very deeply in Dark Sisters where I said that, yeah, there's permanent, but I want there to also be salvation and because she says, I understand. I understand. Let me be the fall. Let me be the person who takes it because I'm strong enough to take it. Now, in the end, she wasn't going to live any other way is what her personality was. Yeah. But the great thing at the end, into that poem is that she does get her vengeance is that when they come back in the morning to cut her down, she's still alive. I love this. Oh, my God. So she's still alive and now they're all so afraid of her. Yes. They cut her down and leave her there. And so she was like, I wasn't a witch

before, but I am now. And that is powerful. Can I ask you a really huge favor? One of the biggest indicators in audience growth and podcast popularity is ratings and reviews. I am always going to be growing bookwild and the range of guests that we're able to have. But the one thing that you can really do that would help grow bookwild is rate and review on whichever platform you listen to. And if you do rate and review, send me a screenshot because I would love to send you some bookwild bookmarks. Now let's get back to the episode. That is like an OG good for her moment. It's actually how I felt watching Frankenstein too. You are the second person in the last two days. I haven't watched it yet.

I have to, okay, because I started to watch it. My husband comes in and he goes, don't watch it without me. Oh, you're like, it's a long one. When are we going to find the time? Yeah. It's usually at nighttime. I'm like, I'm going to bed. I can't. I don't have to be. But yeah, so that's, that was that same mentality of. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. I watched Frankenstein here recently. And then I just got back from a book event for a book called I Medusa by Iiana and it is like her origin story it's like medusa when she's like 17 years old and she doesn't get the curse until near the end of the book it's all of these themes like it's all the same theme so it's like uh that frankenstein dark sisters and then a couple months ago i read the women

of wild hill by christin miller which is another like female rage good for her all the way but to what you were talking about at the event last night Ayanna the author was talking about how sometimes we think it is just men that uphold the patriarchy and it is not like there are women who have devotedly especially in Congress currently I'm just going to say it who have devotedly upheld stuff Marjorie Taylor Green and girl that's my district oh no Oh, that is my district. And every time I just want to pull everything out of myself in a rage. But I bet. But yeah, it's this idea that proximity to power won't save you in the end. And we've seen it even happen, even with her, like Trump's. She used to be kind of a lap dog. And then he like cast her out the second that she wasn't 100% on board with him. And she's resigning now.

right after she gets her pension. Yeah, I also think there's another reason behind that. I think she's going for a governor run, but that makes, yeah, I could see that too. But it's like the proximity to power is where some women are like, oh, and I understand. I also know there's a lot of nuance because it's, it takes a lot to want to stand up against something and go past the part of yourself that is in self-preservation mode and is made, like you're saying, like these women aren't helping her while she's up there. But also, if you're so terrified, it's a very specific personality that's going to want to be like, well, I'm still going to stand up for what's right, but it does not always protect you in the end. They like women quickly, it's like Handmaid's Tale, Serena's the way

when I'm like kind of trying to explain the concept to people. The second they need a pawn or a fall guy, it's going to be you. It's not going to be men. Like it didn't protect you. No, absolutely not. And that was, that was something I wanted to play with. That exact idea was something I wanted to play with with Vera's character. He has a moment where she has, she has the option to make a decision. Do I help or do I not? And that fear of, I feel that fear. Yes.

I put myself in these moments all the time where I think to myself, well, what would you do? And I, it's hard. I think especially when you start to take into consideration all of the other factors that into one person's life. I mean, I think, well, if it was me, yeah, well, I have a, I have a child. What would that mean? And so it's, you know, and so in putting that on Vera of, and then having her have recognition after the fact of, I made the wrong choice. Because it didn't save me in the end. It didn't help me at all. Yeah. And what that means. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's tricky. And I'm not even coming from judgment all the time with women who do. There's really

this is reminding me too of um there's a book called the line women of teheran um by marjan kamali and it's this it's this generic like decades spanning i think it spans 40 or 50 years of their no it's more because it's like when they're eight and then like finally at the end they're like in their 60s or 70s but it's these two friends and one of them homa is like cannot stand to live in a world with so much injustice um and and she's growing up in iran right before fundamental religious fundamentalism took it over in the 60s I think but like women had careers like it was news to me like the way that it's portrayed to us is like Iran has always been like this like they've always hated women like no it was a really religious regime that came through there

are women who were lawyers and overnight all of a sudden couldn't be but the book does a really good job of like the two characters Ellie feels strongly about it and feels ambitious but like is terrified to stand up against anything and homa is like i can't stand to sit here and not say something and it's so good because there's no judgment on either however i think it's still worth like all of us understanding that like turning on each other isn't what's gonna it's not going to save anyone within women especially and other minorities too absolutely so yeah i've been reading a lot of books in this scene I have a whole list

now of things that I have to go and get because yeah I think some of it too is probably like I think more horror comes out like in the like end of the year too so that might be some of it but they're such powerful stories

and even the fiction ones for me like help me help me have hope did you feel that way writing any of it did it kind of like give you some bits of hope even though it might be bittersweet i think so of particularly as i knew or as the end started coming yeah and i knew where things were headed and it was it's it's it's bittersweet because you recognize that this this is probably the best ending that they could have it's not wonderful and it doesn't solve everything but

step forward and that's better than stagnating where they were and having to kind of shape these patterns over and over and over again and that because that's the thing as well and without giving away the ending or without spoiling anything everyone that is the problem doesn't go away if that makes sense of me not everyone the sense never will be either unfortunately it never will be as for everyone that goes of And it's, there's three more that sprout up where that left off. And I think that it's a, a reminder of that this is a fight that that's worth continuing. Mm-hmm.

Because yes, there are going to be those continuations and that these things that don't stop. And so that sense of good for her is something like, take it, put it in your pocket and take it with you. Because it's, we have to keep going. Yes, definitely. Yeah. I agree. You did talk about the, there are three very distinct voices. Was there, was there anything you did to kind of make them each feel distinct? And like the other thing I noticed, we have first person perspective for Anne and then the other are third, third person. So was there any thought process going on with that part too? You know, for the choice, I know. Sometimes it's just how it happens. Yeah.

It was just kind of how it happened. And I don't, I wish I had a good reason why or I wish I could put my finger on exactly why it felt right to have Andy in first person. But it was, I think it was, I think I needed the first person in order to capture the voice of that time period. Yeah. And it was, it was. interesting as well because originally I wrote all the all the these and nows and thines and wuts and

that very particular time periods voice and when I gave it to my editor she said I think I get what you're doing. I love how authentic you are. I think we got to take them out because it's going to slow the reading down a lot. Makes sense. And so I was like, yeah, I get that. And so I felt though in order to really get into the period, something about that first person fit better. Yeah. But then for the other two timelines, Mary's voice, and it was funny because she was the last time, point of view to come in, she ended up being my favorite and the most closely aligned to me and my current, my own current voice.

But then Camilla was, her voice was easier sometimes for me as well, because it was, it was me when I was that age. Yeah. And so in getting into each of those. voices, I think the time periods really helped be able to transition into them more easily and make them more distinct because there is a way in each timeline of how those women perceive things, of how they exist in their world. And so I think had they not had they been similar, more similar, I don't think it would have been as easy. That's a good point. Yeah. Because it's that

the way I view the world is how I talk about it and how I think. And so that made it, this is the first time I've thought about that. Yeah. I really think that has to be it. It was the time periods that. Yeah. Well, some of what had me, I think, noticing and thinking about it was I had Aaron Crosby, Eckstein, who wrote Junie. She was on a couple weeks ago. And she was talking about dramatic irony because it's a story about a 16-year-old who's been enslaved her entire life on a plantation. And so some of the tension of reading the book is that we know how bad that time period was. And she kind of does, but she's also a teenager who hasn't like known any differently. And so then when I started reading Dark Sisters shortly after it, I was like with Camilla,

you're kind of because she's still so young we're also kind of having that experience where like we know stuff that she doesn't know but it helps us think about like kind of what you're saying like heavily indoctrinating children like and they don't know any different so I think that was some of what had me like really paying attention to her perspective too is sometimes the like teen perspective is so effective actually I'm Medusa she's 17. the whole time. And so I was having that same experience where, like, you have all this compassion for her because she's being groomed. And she doesn't know because she's 17 and she's lived on an island with her parents her whole life. And she's like, wow, Poseidon. I mean, spoiler alert,

this is a thousands-year-old story. But Poseidon just doesn't love his wife. And like, he's just so fascinated by me. And like, it's easy to look at it and be like, girl. But then when you're like, oh, she's 17. Like, you don't know yet. And so it. it's like even more powerful having those teen perspectives sometimes I think right yeah even a very adult look right well and I think sometimes too that that I understand why that perspective can be or that age can be very difficult to read from an adult perspective because and I've seen criticism in the past and even going back to my previous novel um such a pretty smile one of the characters in that book is 13 and this this criticism of well it reads very y a and and

And or Camilla's character is very frustrating because it's like, girl, stand up. And I go, I mean, I get it. Yeah. I want her to as well. But there's this, like you said, there's the limitation that's been that she doesn't, they don't know better. Yeah. And that that's kind of the point of to say. That's what I was going to say.

I think the frustration is the end game. Like you want to feel frustrated by that because you're, you're thinking like, oh my gosh, this is happening to her. She doesn't know any better. Right. And yeah, I'm like, yeah, I want that frustration because that's the point. So. Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about, because it's even in the title, it's Dark Sisters, uh, in, in terms of like the bittersweet hopefulness of it all, it's like we can have sisterhood with people who are related to or even not related to. So was that kind of important from the get go to include some of that as well? Oh, yes.

of that i yeah absolutely of and that also understanding darkness in other people sometimes create those bonds uh creates that sense of sisterhood motherhood because it's really not and it's it's funny i had one person who was talking to me about the book and they said you know it's funny we have the title dark sisters and i don't think they're sisters anywhere there's no real sisters yeah and i went well no but i'm using it in terms of the larger sense of sisterhood. And this idea that there can be frustration, there can be disagreement, there can be betrayal even, but in the end of if there's a mutual coming back to an understanding that's coming to a place of genuine love and compassion and wanting to get better,

that that's what forges these bonds that are so incredibly important. And I want to be very particular when I say that, that it has to be a mutual want for love and advancement and betterment because I think that sisterhood is sometimes painted with a very broad brush of it's just blanket acceptance. That's not what I mean of if we're accepting, that's going to be accepting the dark parts of yourself and admitting that they're not good and that they're not purple. So that's what I, when I say self-acceptance and love, it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. not, well, take me as I am. No. Yeah.

Sometimes we have to build. And sometimes we have to dismantle the hurtful structures. And that's really what this is about. That's what creates that sisterhood. And I see you, you see me, I know kind of thing. Yeah. It's something else I've been learning about this year is the concept of not just being an ally, but being an accomplice. And I felt it in this book, too. And I feel like that's kind of what you're saying.

Like we do have to mutually want it. We have to want to help each other. And we will be better for it if we do. But yeah, none of us are perfect. So even kind of how, I mean, it's loosely related, but even how kind of like the Democratic Party has a habit of like cannibalizing candidates because they're not perfect. And you're like, we're never going to find the perfect person.

Like they're going to have some flaws and that's okay. but like even someone who is aware of their flaws is so much easier to be in relationship with than someone who thinks they have none so absolutely yeah and as I was exploring the relationship between Camilla and Brianna in that that friendship of yes they're very good friends but I wanted it to be real that Camilla is ignorant yes and it you can say that it's not her fault, but she has to grapple with it and say, okay, I am and how do I fix it? Because that's not something you can just brush under a rug. And if you're going to have a true friend, they have to be able to say, I was wrong. And I'm sorry. And I'm going to learn from it. And so I want, that was really important

for me in their, in their friendship as well. Yeah. When Brianna pointed out to her that she was pretty sheltered from all of it and not actually experienced. experiencing like the full brunt of the negativity of being a woman in the path uh i was like yeah you like exactly what you said camilla doesn't know at the moment but i've even been keeping like i'll eventually turn it into a blog post but uh losing my ignorance is something that i have been talking about because there's obviously just a lot of stuff presented to me that like now i'm like, I don't think so. I don't think that's how that was. So yeah, her as a kind of as a mirror, Brianna kind of as a mirror was like, it was fascinating because it's like sometimes you do

really care about someone, but you're like, you've got a big blind spot. Right. Yes. And then am I going to be brave enough to bring it up or not? Exactly. And can and not just cut you off? And like, can I, because like that doesn't solve anything either. Right. If you're in an abusive situation. Yes, cut people off. But it's like in other situations, it's like continuing the conversation that could be the most helpful. Right. Absolutely. It's not always fun. No. And it would be very necessary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like we could talk forever. We definitely we have a lot in common. We definitely love horror the same way. Um, but obviously I love the book. we love female rage over here so anyone who is in the is in the mood for their next female

rage good for her witches are actually wonderful books like you guys need to go pick this one up as of today as it airs you can go get it um but i do always ask at the end if you have any books that you always recommend or any books that you've loved recently yes and it's funny because okay i have to and they're coincidentally they're right here next to me because i've been talking about them a lot lately. So the first one, this is my go-to. I always recommend this book to everyone just because I feel like this is Helen Ooyeemey's White is for Riching. Okay. And I love Helen Oyaeemey, period. But this book in particular, what she does so well, if it is this genre blending, because I love a genre blend. Yes. But she somehow converges this absolutely beautiful.

lyricism of prose with things that are deeply, deeply unsettling. Wow. And that meeting, that kind of uncanny valley feeling that happens when you're reading something really beautiful, but then also going, oh, this is awful. Yeah. Does something to my body that cannot. It is my favorite kind of literature where a really beautiful writer talking about really unsettling things. And this book in particular does it so, so, so well. And so this is a, this is a, again, a very women-centric, women-focused story looking at four generations all within one family who live in a very haunted house. And the main character has PICA, where she eats, um, random food. And so, but so she's, she's starving, though, because she has, it's essentially, it's an eating disorder.

she's eating things that aren't food because they're not food and but it's this beautiful like generational trauma ghost story wow i can't recommend this one enough uh but that that's my go-to i always recommend but then the one that i read recently that i go has become probably in my top 10 is um this one uh elliott gish's gray dog okay and it is it is like my Anne of Green Gables loving oh sorry everything kind of cut out for a second

but like my Anne of Green Gables loving childhood girl heart grew up and wrote a horror book and it is gorgeous of it's a school teacher she moves to the small town and the town is very strange

and weird things start to happen and a lot of female rage in this book And it is gorgeous. So those are my top two. I love this. I'm like already like looking if they're available on Libby. Oh my gosh.

I know. I have so many lists of my desk like for right now has little post notes. Just a full of book recommendations. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. I don't have enough time to read everything I want to read and it makes me stat sometimes. I know.

Me too. Can we just read all the time? No. Right. It'd be amazing. Well, thank you for coming on and talking with me and for writing this. I just love stories like this. And I know a lot of people will connect with it as well, probably a lot just after what

2025's been like. So I loved reading it, and I'm so glad I got to talk with you about it. Same, same. Thank you so much.