Bookwild - Rebecca McKanna's Don't Forget the Girl: Remembering the Victims, Female Friendship and True Crime Podcasts

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Rebecca McKanna with Steph Lauer IN PERSON about Rebecca's book Don't Forget the Girl. We dive into how a short story collection inspired the book, how she got to know her characters, and why she chose the ending she chose.Don't Forget the Girl SynopsisWe never remember the dead girls. We never forget the killers. Twelve years ago, 18-year-old University of Iowa freshman Abby Hartmann disappeared. Now, Jon Allan Blue, the serial killer suspected of her murder, is about to be executed. Abby's best friends, Bree and Chelsea, watch as Abby's memory is unearthed and overshadowed by Blue and his flashier crimes. The friends, estranged in the wake of Abby's disappearance, and suffering from years of unvoiced resentments, must reunite when a high-profile podcast dedicates its next season to Blue's murders.Tense and introspective, Don't Forget the Girl is an astonishing debut thriller that mines the complexities of friendship and the secrets between us that we may take to the grave.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk in person with Rebecca McKenna and Steph was with me as well. To talk about her book, Don't Forget the Girl. It was so fun getting to do it in person. We've talked about this book on the podcast for years. So it was just so fun to do it in person. But here is what the book is about. We never remember the dead girls. We never forget the killers.

Twelve years ago, 18-year-old University of Iowa freshman Abby Hartman disappeared. Now, John Allen Blue, the serial killer suspected of her murder, is about to be executed. Abby's best friends, Bree and Chelsea, watch as Abby's memory is unearthed and overshadowed by Blue and his flashier crimes. The friends estranged in the wake of Abby's disappearance and suffering from years of unvoiced resentments must reunite when a high-profile podcast dedicates its next season to Blue's murders. This is one of those books that just sticks with you. It's why we've talked about it for so many years and why I was so excited to find out that Rebecca actually lived in Indiana and could do an IRL interview. That being said, let's hear from Rebecca. I'm trying to remember.

You were the last person. Steph was the last person I did an IRL podcast with. Cool. And I think that we're just going to keep making it happen. This year and next year. It's nice to do it in person. It's a really different vibe. It is.

Yeah. You don't have accidental internet issues. the dog, the Bruce and Harley co-hosts are not here. Yeah. It will just be better. But for everyone who just started listening, we are with Rebecca McKenna here to talk about Don't Forget the Girl. And we, I think, oh, my gosh, we keep thinking we're going to print off. We have a friend Gare who's like also.

Gare, yes. Yes. So we keep saying, so Steph and I live in the Midwest together. and Rebecca lives in Indiana too. But we live like five and a half hours apart, but Gare is in upstate New York. So Steph and I have... Gare. Gare is so sweet about my book.

I love Gare. And that's where I was going. I think Gare was the one who told me to request it on NetGalley. So now I feel really bad that I didn't make the cutout, but I'm going to do it this week is what I'm going to do. I'm going to get... We wanted kind of like one, like his head on like a popsicle stick type thing. So he's here in spirit Because he read this

And he was like Oh my gosh We do call him Gare Bleak Billings He loves a bleak story Yeah and this is definitely And this one checked that box So he was like Kate You have to read this

And so yeah So I requested on NetGalley Because of that That was probably two years ago then I think is what we're thinking Yeah I think that's right And I loved it And then I went to

a Carmel Library event where Rebecca was in conversation with Lisa Jewell and I was like, oh my God, I know her. And then you and I were messaging on Instagram after her. I'm like, where are you? And I was so crowded. It was really crowded. So this is kind of still our first time in person. I watched her interview, Lisa Jewel, though.

So that was kind of cool. But Steph read the books too and loved it. So Gare Steph and I have talked about it. It's one of those ones that just keeps coming back up on the podcast. So yeah, I feel like we bring it up a lot. We bring it up a lot. Anytime we're talking about books where the victims matter than this area killer or female friendship. Yeah.

Or bleakness, you know, which is like some of the most common topics on a podcast. So this one checks all the boxes and we're so excited to talk with you about. Thank you. I'm excited to talk with you both. Yeah. This is surreal. Seriously, because it's like I remember when I was like, I listened to. this podcast and it's like so cool and then all of a sudden like we start talking and then like we're

recording together talking about this book and now rebecca's here yeah what the heck i know he manifested it yes that's the goal to keep manifesting more yeah sure and like a five-star read off i know i know so cool welcome thank you thank you yeah so i do always ask at the beginning what what your journey to writing was. So like, did you always know you wanted to write or when did you know you wanted to write? In like fifth grade, they did the thing where they would have you like write little books on like construction paper. And I remember like I would get upset because like my mind was going faster than my hand could. My hand would be like source. Like I always really like doing that. But I think maybe as a Midwestern person, I did not feel like that was practical or a life

career and so I ended up studying ultimately not very practical journalism and thought like, oh, I'll be a newspaper reporter. Like that's like a practical. And then of course, like I graduated in 2007 when the bottom fell out of the journalism industry. Yeah. But even then like when I was interning for a local newspaper, like I'd be alone on Sundays listening to the police scanner and I'd be writing stories like while I was waiting to see

if there's anything I needed to cover. So I always liked fiction. I just didn't think it was something. could pursue and then I worked in corporate communications for a while I was super bored and I just thought like what if I tried to get into an MFA program and so then I got in at Purdue and that kind of changed the trajectory of things for me that's awesome yeah what what um how does your fiction writing process developed and how does journalism affect it really a good question um I think with journalism like I was so used to writing on deadline. I think in some ways like it makes me very

kind of clear writer but I also think it makes me like I write short and I have to go back and kind of linger and like add more in and I think that comes from journalism so it's kind of like a double-edged sword a little bit but it gets you writing yeah probably is the nice part like exactly if you have to add back in right yeah do you plot or do you follow your heart or are you Are you a planter? Are you in the middle? I want so much to be someone who plots in advance. Like, I just, I talk to who was it? Oh, there's another author. And she just would like, she's like, I outline it and then I write it. And I was just like that's. Ashley Winstead is like that. Oh, right. I love Ashley Winston. Yeah. Like that's that's so amazing to me. Whereas it's like I try, because I'm sort of a control freak. So I try. And then I get onto the page and then they're doing things that I. I didn't expect. Like, Bree just started sleeping with that detective. That was not me at all.

She just like, and I was like, no, what are you doing? So they kind of do their own thing. But I always kind of go in with an idea and then whether or not that actually like happens. Kind of up to them. Yeah. So they kind of reveal themselves to you. They definitely do. Like Ashley, like Bree sleeping with Fry.

And then Chelsea and Abby having the relationship. Like that was not something I. came in thinking. They just one day I was writing kind of a scene in the past, a memory, and they started kissing at a party. And I was like, oh, okay. This explains a lot because I didn't understand why Chelsea was so much more, she's messed up in a very different way it felt like.

And then that sort of explained it. Wow. Yeah. That is wild. I guess we're going right into spoilers. Yes. Sorry. That's okay.

It happens. It happens really odd. Even the detective, it does too. You're right. Okay, okay. You're right, because I was going to ask about some of that anyway. Yeah. You used to start the spoilers because I have a lot. Yeah.

I think about them a lot. But I think that's very. I think you're right. You're right. Like how, how. I can edit it around if I need to. I was, yeah, I don't know. Saying it in general, too.

But you're right. That does happen. There is so much so vague. Like in a good way. It really is. Yeah. Like secrets. Yeah.

Friends. Yes. Time has passed. Right. Yeah. So, so the characters are kind of revealing it themselves to you, what would, did you have an inspiration point for this book? What did you go in kind of thinking it was going to be? So I went in wanting to write a linked short story collection about the loved ones of someone who had been murdered by a serial killer. And for like five years, I tried to make that

linked story collection work. And like ultimately so little of that is in this book. I kind of had to throw it out and start over because it just wasn't doing what I wanted. But it helped me get to know the characters, I think. But then part of it too was like many people are super into true crime. Ted Bundy particularly really freaked me out. And then one day I was like looking into one of his victims and I couldn't find like anything about her. And it made me really mad where I was just like, I know everything about this guy. And I know. so little about this woman and she's just like a footnote in a story and something about that realization like really changed my relationship with true crime the way that I thought about writing

a book about a serial killer and then it's been interesting in the news like the Idaho murders and the sister of Kaylee the victim Kaylee she gave this victim impact statement did either of you see that yes it is so powerful And what I loved about it is that, like, she sort of distilled everything that I was trying to get across in this book in this statement where she just sort of roasts him and is like, you're a loser, basically. Yeah. People shouldn't be afraid of you, you know. And if my sister had been awake, like, she would have picked your ass. Like, and that really, like, resonated with me where I just think that there's so much myth-making with some of these horrible people that I just really.

that I just really would like to see the victims get more attention. I think that comes across so clearly in some of the details like nose picking. You know what I mean? There's just stuff that like is kind of loser behavior. And so I think that you did so well and it's so cool that it translates into these things that are happening in present day. When I think about what you're saying now, I think we talk a lot about family members and things. I think sometimes like friendships can kind of get lost. Yeah.

And like the grief years and years later. So I was kind of wondering like, did you go in looking for a book about friendships or like how did? I mean, you're saying it's a short story, but like how did it kind of spread? Yeah. The first story I wrote for that linked collection was about, I don't know that they were named Bree and Chelsea, but it was really the two friends. So for some reason, that was sort of the starting place. And I think you're right. It's so interesting. We think about the family members, but not always like the best friends. And I think that that also is like a complicated place to grieve because, you know,

you never want to be the person that's like overly histrionic or is like trying to get attention from grief, but still like, yes, this wasn't their family member, but in some ways, like, chosen family is so important. And so, yeah, I thought that that would be interesting too, especially in the book, early on we kind of learned that they've been sort of shut out from the family, too. Right. And that's, that would be really painful. Right. They're closer than family. And when you think about being a teenager in college or are young adult, like you're closer probably to your friends. Yeah.

Then you are family and like they know things about you. Your family doesn't maybe know. Yes. That is such a important relationship. Especially in women. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Especially. And in college, like you're saying, like it's the first time you are like being yourself right out your like family of origin. So the other relationships matter differently. Yeah. Yeah. So when did Bree and Chelsea kind of when you were writing them in the short stories? Were they also estranged after the fact?

I don't remember. In the first short story, they were actually in high school in that kind of version. And they were already kind of starting to fracture the two of them. Because I think, I don't know, I could see a situation in which an event like that, makes you, you know, even more like enmeshed or something. But I also think that like this person is a reminder, especially if you have regrets about what happened with the person who died. Like, they're a reminder of all that. And I can just see where it would be hard to stay close in those circumstances. I remember Broadchurch was one of the first. It's a, yeah, I think it's from,

why can't I think of what their network is? BBC. Yeah. But it was on Netflix. And that was the first time I'd seen like it's definitely more about the fallout and the families after a child is murdered. And it was in that like series that I learned like I think it's like 75% of the time. If a child dies, the parents just can't make it work anymore because what you just said, like the reminder is so painful. And so it is interesting because it can just go so many ways. I'm sure there are people who do just like cling to each other. Right.

But then it's actually like really overwhelming for most marriages, that case even. Yes, even marriages have trouble lasting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. You said they kind of reveal themselves to you. But Brie and Chelsea both have maladaptive coping mechanisms.

Yeah, absolutely. And they're very different for each of them. Did you know where you wanted to take them? Or was that kind of also, too, like, as you wrote them? I think a little bit of both. Like, Brie is weird because she's a character I've been writing since I was 18. Oh, wow. Like, Brie had a whole other, like, novel that she kind of lived in that never, you know,

and I was like just playing around with writing. But they, I think they both sort of started out with, I don't know, maybe like the general brushstrokes, like, of who they were. And then as I wrote them on the page, the kind of finer details sort of emerged. So I didn't know at first, like, Bree has a lot of self-loathing. She makes a lot of really bad decisions. And it took a while to totally understand where some of that was coming from. Yeah.

And the same sort of with Chelsea, it was like, this is a person who's, like, crafted this, like, persona to try to protect herself and not quite knowing, like, why, what is at the root of that? I was telling stuff when I was listening to the book a couple weeks ago. I do love Bree and obviously I will the more I keep talking here but in that like those first chapters there you you mention how she's like she had she like takes her Zoloft and also has an edible and is eating like cheese girl dinner and my husband was out of town and I take Zoloft and I was on an edible while I was listening and I was eating cheese you're like you're like I was like oh no I was like, is my, try to look at such stuff. So you're just making me laugh.

There's all kinds of versions of using those things that can be good or bad. Right. But hers really is like her self-destructive. It's like the impulsive decision. Yeah. That she makes that's kind of difficult for her to get under control. Yeah. So then on the flip side, Chelsea like becomes a priest.

Mm-hmm. after feeling like she's a bisexual or a lesbian. Yeah. So it's kind of, that's like a very other interesting form of armor. So what needs you want to incorporate that? I, during the writing of this was attending an Episcopal church and had a female priest who is like actually a integrated together person like does not bear resemblance to Chelsea. but I just thought that I just remember interacting with her and how as like warm and lovely as she was. There was always this because of the role.

And I thought like, wow, that would be such a place to hide if you wanted to. Yes. Yeah. And so. Like so many boundaries that you have to have. Yeah. Because like people are always needing from you or wanting from comfort and all kinds of things. things.

Yeah. Like, you're right. Yeah. It's a mask you can put on easily, I think. And it's weird because, like, I'm a professor. And so you would sort of think Brie could use being a professor in sort of the same way. She does, like, the complete opposite, where it's a real lack of boundaries or kind of, yeah, facade. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, because both of them just, like, we started the conversation about them. They are both just a mess doing it. two very different ways. Yeah. It's interesting. We talk a lot with, especially when we talk with like Lane Fargo or something about like a likable characters. And there's times, like, I think I was telling Kate, like, I'm probably a person that like overshares. And so to me, someone like Chelsea is so difficult for me to understand. It's like, just say it. Right. Get it out. But then at the same time, I'm like, that's probably so real. And someone's like, I'm keeping this inside. And someone's like, I'm keeping this

inside. I don't know what Pandora's box would do if I open this up. So it's just like a fascinating place. Like did you feel like you wanted to create like these flawed women that people could still relate to or like how did you navigate their decision making? That's such a good question. I think in some ways like I took parts of people I know but also there are parts of me because on a a given day I can be kind of like you're saying with like the oversharing or whatever. But I think also the weird thing with Chelsea too is some of the stuff, she's not even conscious. She's hiding it. It's like she's locked it away so deep that she won't even look at it.

And I think that I can definitely do that in certain situations because it's like messy to look at things. But yeah, I don't think I went in being like, I want to write, you know, flawed characters. I just kind of wanted to write like real people because we all are flawed. Some readers have really loved that. Then other people are just like really. I've seen some of the reviews. I'm like, guys. Can I say my favorite?

Yes. Please do. Is it like your favorite one-star review? It's my favorite. Well, I don't seek them out. But this one, I can't remember they like tagged me in it or how I came across it. But the woman was like, I think that Abby was the lucky one because she died and didn't have to deal with the other two anymore.

No. Oh, that's terrible. Nobody kind of made me laugh. I know, it is. Like, at first I was like, Oh, boy. So, yeah, so they're obviously like, I don't know, but I think that my hope is that

I feel like if we have patience for unlikable characters, we have patience for the unlikable parts of ourselves. Yes. So I enjoy the real housewives. I like seeing the shadow parts of people come out. Like, yeah. Yeah, we're just not all perfect. No.

Yeah, I don't know if some people read for just like popcorn. Like I'm like if you're looking for any depth or reality, like this is what you're going to get out of people is like tough stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Abby, I've read a couple books now like portions of the push or the quiet tenant that are in second person. And I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this. And I was telling Kate, like especially being Abby where like she's the victim, I think it's so powerful. to be in second person? Like, what made you decide to do that? I think, like, exactly what you're saying,

because it was the victim. I wanted people to sort of have to inhabit that perspective. But it also just, like, wasn't conscious. I couldn't get her voice. And then I was reading some other book that had sort of a second person. And now I can't remember what it was. And I just kind of tried playing with it. And then it just clicked. And I was like, oh, this is the voice. So that's cool. Yeah. Did you always know you were going to write the pasty and the present? It was like such a, I, no, I wanted, I wanted, someday I want to write a book in first person one timeline, but it just like never seems to happen for me. And it was like as I was writing kind of the fallout, it was just clear that there's so much backstory that needs to be in there. But I didn't quite know how to go about it.

And then when I finally got to like, okay, it's the two in the present. It's the one in the past. That really kind of unlocked it. That's actually what Sagi Eat Schwartz, who's a friend of mine, but in her book, since she's been gone, it's in dual timelines. And she actually said the same thing was that she was just writing it present, but then she kept pausing to like do the info dump that you need. And she would, to like understand the past.

And it got to a point where she was like, oh, these can just be their own chapters. So sometimes it's like, oh, for this story, you just have to, it needs both. I'm also just kind of a sucker for those sort of book because it just creates innately so much tension. Because you're like, what's happening in this one? What's happening in this timeline? And when they kind of like, Samantha Hunt has a book called Mr. Slipfoot, something like that. And it's like the timeline sort of meet in the middle at the end.

And I just really, it just was such a page turner to like. see what was happening in each one. Well, I'm going to be trying to read that one. Yeah. Add it to the list. So it also takes place in Indiana, which, well, yeah, Iowa. Sorry. I mean, they all start with I. I'm in Indiana, right?

Right. My goodness gracious. Yeah. Was there a reason that you chose that location? I was just homesick. I'm from Iowa, and I went to college in Iowa City at the same time that I set this. And so I think there was just a part of me, like, as I was aging, you know, that was like, oh, I want to revisit. There's some good nostalgia in there as a person that graduated in 2010.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. College. It's like, so relatable. Well, I'm such a, it's weird to look back on it because there are so many things that the time seemed really normal. And then you look back and you're like, that was kind of messed up that we were like, weird, like diet culture things. Like the way that we saw sexuality was so different. Yeah. So they're in the past they it's kind of a good example of how threes can be hard especially like I don't mean especially women I'm not trying to say women are extra dramatic maybe just more women have three three people friendships but was there anything you wanted to explore with that or did you kind of like just be like I have these two girls who did lose a friend I have been in many like three person kind of like best friends. I have been in many like three person kind of like best friends. friendships and some have like lasted and I'm still friends with them and then some kind of like blew up in interesting ways. And I do think that like friendship breakups, one are so interesting and not always like taken as seriously as a romantic breakup. But I just do think there's always like

the relationship with the three, the one with the other and then you're sort of watching. Yes. This is the one that you're not a part of. And that can create, especially when you're young and they're trying to figure out who they are. It creates so much drama. Yeah, it really can. Yeah. Actually with assumptions. Like, you're always assuming. Yeah. Yeah. She thinks I'm not as smart as her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a bad habit of getting the giggles together. And I always feel bad because it happens when stuff is like, always happens like right before she. But I'm like, oh, they have like, they're laughing together and I want to laugh. But I'm not a part of it. Yeah. Right. I do not care. I don't. I know you don't.

happened. I wanted to. Yeah. Yeah, because like sometimes it's like she's reading a synopsis and then you're like drop something and it's like, oh, and it's just like, if we're recording late enough, it just makes me giggle and then sometimes we just feed off of each other. And I'm like, oh, no, what is? Because they did earlier this week. So I think you're like, what happened this time? And I was like, I'm just typing. So yeah, so, but I think it gets easier in adulthood. You're not like, follow the thought. But you're still, yeah. Wait a second. What do I do? here. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. I think in adulthood, you're also sometimes more to be like, what's going on? Right. Right. I'm not going to say anything, but I'm going to assume the worst.

Exactly. That one, what is it like a, some self-help book I know happened, like crucial conversations or something where they say like when you don't know a hole in the story you fill it yourself. It's usually filled with like the worst. That's so true. And I've thought that for, I mean, I've remembered that for a long time. And I think that's kind of applies in this. this book. Always fill it with like the worst thing. Yeah. And I think like as you get older, you start to realize even if it is a negative thing, like let's say you guys are not laughing at, you know, stuff. But like if, you know, I think as an adult, you realize like that's not, even if that were the case, it's not about me. It's usually about some deep-seated issue the other

people have. And I think that that's something that they're not at that place yet. So when one is mean to the other or whatever, they're not able to, like, unpack that. I know. Yeah. So rough. It does rough. Do you like it into spoiler, spoiler territory? Sure.

I think I had one thing else about, one another thing about that age group was I thought it was a really appropriate way. Like we talked a little about, like, Chelsea being a priest, about, I thought it was such an interesting way to insert, like, Abby was in a class. and there was a professor talking about like religion and sports or something. And it just like it allowed these conversations to happen between the college friends of like their beliefs and like, how do you think about God? And I was like, you know, that's such an organic way to have that conversation when you're having these classes and then you can you just like talk to your friends about it. Yeah.

And so I was just kind of wondering like why did you choose to add that? because it's so powerful and interesting. Thank you. I don't know. I think that during the time I was writing it, I was like, why always will be like spiritually seeking. You know what I mean? And so I think I was thinking a lot about that.

And I think you're right too. Like those, when you're in college, it may be because of those classes, it's easy to have these like big, big picture conversations with friends, these like big. And I think I kind of like missed that too. And then I also think that when you have somebody who, you lose someone, you innately are going to think about the afterlife, where did this person go? And then that obviously brings in like religion and God. And so it kind of felt like all of a piece.

Yeah. Do you have that contributed? Some people can find so much solace in religion, even if it's not like 100% connecting with everything about them. you, I wondered as I was listening, you feel like Chelsea, like it gave her something to hold on to and to make sense of how someone could die that young? Absolutely. Because I think kind of the way I see Chelsea, it's like for a while she was sort of lugging the hole with drugs and then she switches to religion and which is also really common. Right. Yeah. And not that. And I think that like for her, one is less immediately damaging, but it still is sort of.

of a way that she's able to push away and not have to like really get into the messiness of grappling with everything. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So we'll kind of get into the people want to market. Yeah. Yeah. You can pause and then you can come back if you want to. I had a crazy synchronicity happen where so basically you heard us, we talked at the beginning of the episode about how I remember it was July, right? In July. I had signed up to see Lisa Jewell, but I didn't know who was in conversation with. And so then I was really excited. And I was like, oh, I actually know her.

So that was then when Steph and I had talked about trying to do an in-person episode with you when she learned that you lived in Indiana. And then I just, you know, you have ideas and then you keep doing life or whatever. So all of that to say, I was like, let's get it going. Let's get in motion. That's why we're here today now. But I hadn't posted about it or anything. And so last week I got this DM from someone who says she's private because she is a social worker. Oh, interesting.

So I won't say her name or anything, but I get this message. And it's like really, it's like tons of text that like begins with like, I know we don't talk very much. But like, I just had to show you how many annotations I have in this book and how much I love this book so much. and I heard about it from your podcast, and it took me forever to get to it. And I finally wrote this, and I am verbatim right now. I'll show you it, too, because it was very sweet. Like, she was like, and I'm just really grateful that this story exists. Even, like, as a social worker, she really felt like the topics it covered were so valuable.

And so I'm just, like, reading this. I still don't know what the book is because it's just all this text is so long. She's like, okay, I'm going to send you the pick now. And I'm like, okay, what is it going to be? It could be all kinds of books I've read. And it is, don't forget. the girl and it has just tabs everywhere. I'll see, I know she's private, but if she can send me the photo, I'll put it up for the YouTube people. And she was like, it just mattered so much to me.

I know. And I was like, oh my God, I was like, I have to tell you, I'm like two weeks away from interviewing her. And it's just these crazy synchronicities that happen sometime in life where like, it's really cool. It came out kind of two years ago. And then this person happens to read. it like right before but she talked about something she was like I just wanted to tell you the things I love too she talked about something that I really enjoyed about it as well is she was like I was so glad there wasn't a twist at the end just to have a twist the sake of it yeah at the end and she was like I'm glad that like the tone kind of saying like the whole tone of the book was congruent with the fact that like no this was just a terrible guy who did it terrible did multiple terrible things so

did you, were you even ever considering it not being hit? Absolutely. And I think this person messaged me too. Oh, because they said, I did, I did get a message when someone who said, like, thank you so much for not doing it. It was a couple of weeks ago. Which, which, yeah, I thought, like, that's why you have multiple drafts to, like, work, work things out. Because there was a point where I had gotten kind of obsessed with the idea of what if there was this kind of high profile killer operating and it obscured some like random kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was kind of obsessed with that for a while. And so in the first draft, like it is, I mean, you probably guess who the other one was. Yeah. But then when I was revising it, I was just like, you know what? Like the whole point of this is that ultimately it doesn't matter. Like it doesn't exactly matter what happened. And their kind of journey is to try to. let go of getting certain answers. And so, you know, it makes just more sense that, yeah,

he did it. Probably. Yeah. And we won't, we won't know exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we, yeah, the readers are still technically left the way that a lot of family members and friends feel, because a lot of people don't get answers. Yeah. Yeah. When I was doing the reread, I was on like Abby's second last, well, for third last. And I was like, wait. yes is there and then I was like oh no I was so it was just funny because like there is a moment where you wonder yes and then I'm like okay yep all right never mind so because it like this whole part of the story is like it makes more sense for it not to twist yeah yeah yeah so I get it because there's that moment where you're like yeah yeah and I and I and I and I I think congruent is a good word for it because I was like, if it would have been, like, there was only that one little part where when we meet this person. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's interesting.

Because there are some readers who just want a surprise. Yes. Yeah. And I, as I read more thrillers and as I've gone on my reading journey, like, to me that matters less and life. Yeah. And so it's always interesting to me what people prioritize for, like, what they're looking for. Yeah, because I think that is like hard for authors to sort of balance twists versus maybe like a thematic cohesion. And I think that you can kind of see the different results.

And I don't know, my favorite are when you can kind of do both. Yeah. Yeah. Where it fits the big theme. And then, yeah, then it has a payoff. I think we did an episode or I did, I don't know who I did it with about the different. because also sometimes people don't understand the difference between a twist and a reveal. Yeah. True. So I'm like, reveals happen in like historical fiction. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like,

it's not even specific to thrillers. Yeah. Like for me, like, because sometimes I'll say it's like a twisty, like when I'm writing my review, it's kind of like a twisty journey to the end. Yeah. But that to me just means you're having some reveals along the way, not like necessarily like. I think people have forgotten that like, twist twist should mean that like almost everything you thought before just completely changed. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's what I think of with twist versus like there are even some reveals in here. Yeah. Where like this feels like to me a literary mystery. Yes. I would I would agree. It's so interesting how things like then you get into marketing. I know. And how people, I've seen books that are good books, but they just, their category was not what it really was.

And then readers are so disappointed. And I feel so bad because it's not the author's fault. It isn't. Control, like, how this was getting kind of pitched. Yeah. That's what we talk about a lot sometimes. Sometimes even when we're recommending a book, if it like says thriller on it too, sometimes we're like, this is more like a mystery, maybe family drama.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if I, I tell, I tell, telling you this right now, so I don't hear this complaint. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, because you do it. We're definitely both mood readers.

So it's like, and I just, I just got into the world of audiobooks finally, which has been exciting. It's so wonderful. Which has got me into more genres as well. And so it's been interesting for me to see too. Lately, the thing I've been noticing is I used to really only read like thrillers mystery. and then like some contemporary fiction but maybe that was like

we're still talking about like Evelyn Hugo might have been my first not thriller which is not necessarily contemporary anyway audiobooks kind of changed that and what I'm like noticing is like the themes and even the plot structures that actually are in all

like are in different genres so now it's kind of like the like core of the story is sometimes what I'm like attracted to so that's what I'm enjoying more historical fiction when like women, a really strong woman is like overcoming a system that was against her. Yeah. Really any character that overcomes a system, that's what I've learned.

Thriller, like, whatever the genre is, I'm like, let's overcome this. So it's kind of cool seeing like what you find was genres. And we do like need them to be able to talk about books. Yes. But sometimes they do hurt perception. Right. And it's interesting that you say that because I've been reading more. romance because sometimes my students want to write romance. I was like, I need to read it to kind

be better at giving feedback. And there's still often mystery in the, you know, in the ones that I really love, there's always a thing where you're like, what's the deal? You know, with that. And then it's sort of revealed as you go along. So yeah, like those techniques like you're saying are kind of across genre. Yeah. My friend Hallie talks about that kind of what you're talking about is that generally well-paced stories are mysteries in that like it's bringing up a question for you and then in the future you learn you bring up another question exactly then you learn and I was like oh that really that really makes sense like which I am just such a sucker for that as a reader yeah that is what is like me too and you turn the page I love it yes yeah I'm like why did he

act this way they didn't totally explain that that's on purpose Yes. Now I need to read. Like, I'm just such a little. Like, when are we going to get the answer to this one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have one? Well, it's not spoilers. Some of mine aren't spoilers. That's okay. That's okay. I was when we're talking about this and how earlier you talked about, like, you write really short. And then we're saying, like, it's kind of more of a literary mystery. I think, I think what drew me so much to it was there are some really just, like, succinct sentences that will say something about, like, being a woman or like i think there was she was like i i cried when i found out that it was going to be a girl because like it's so scary and it's like in two sentences you just said that and it like it's so true so i think like your short writing really really worked but i think there is like this whatever literary means like i get it yeah i think that sometimes when i think of literary i think of like some things take so long to explain. Yes. But I love the way that you write.

Thank you. The point. And say such powerful things. Thank you so much. I guess that was a spoiler. She's going to have a girl. She's going to have a girl. It's okay. We're in spoiler territory. Yeah. That's what I think we were talking a little bit before we hit record about the book. The book I'm reading right now is Doll Parts by Penny Zing.

And I might even just read an example. This might make it into it. It might not. Okay. But I was about to read it to you guys earlier. just because it was so incredibly powerful. So we were talking about how like literary prose can be so powerful. That's what it comes down to for me too is when like one sentence says so much. Coincidentally, I just posted my stories today. I'm reading Black Sheep by Rachel Harrison.

I love Rachel. I love her. Which is like Steph has told me that I would love this book. But the nice thing about audiobooks is I've been able to go back and get the books that I didn't. do interviews for for pub days and stuff so it's like giving me freedom to go back to that stuff um so coincidentally in one of my stories today there is a sentence this it's about a girl who and i'm not going to give any spoilers is returning to like where her very religious family lives for a wedding um and her relationship with her mom has always been like very difficult and when she first arrives there's a sentence that says her disagreement is my sixth

her disappointment is my sixth sense. And I was like, I have never seen the hypervigilance of living with a narcissistic high religion mom put that like six words, six words, I think. So when you were saying that, I was like, that is in that there are so many examples in this book. Yeah. But what I was about to tell you guys earlier is I just started this book last night. And it is like. Lots of highlights. I know.

I'm four chapters. I am four chapters in and, um, whoops. Uh, this is how many highlights I have four, four. Okay, I have to read this. Now, I do highlight extensively when I'm interviewing someone. Yeah. So there's a little more than like usual, but no, it was fantastic. So what you need to know, and this doesn't spoil anything, we're in chapter two, is these two girls similar.

It's, this is why it's reminding me of this book, too. These two girls were really good friends when they were in college. And then there were a bunch of suicides in this Sylvia Plath fan club that they were all a part of in college. Oh, I'm so into that. I'm already, right? You're like, okay. And both of them didn't think that it was suicides that were happening back then. And then something drove them apart after college.

And they went separate ways. I don't my jam. I know. And then one of the women commit suicide. in her home 20 years later. And so now the friend who's been estranged from her is like, well, yeah. We thought did she really kill herself as the gist of it? She also goes on to marry that widowed husband.

So you know all of this in the first two chapters. I am not really spoiling anything. But this was her at the funeral. Her new best friend, Diana Noble, had found her. her. Diana, who was allowed to cry and grieve, who is invited to speak at the funeral, while I sat in the back of the church, a stranger to everyone but the woman in the casket. Nikki and I hadn't spoken in over 18 years, a fact so unbelievable sometimes that it felt like fiction. I was like, two sentences. You got that much out of two sentences. And then earlier, when we've just realized she married the widowed husband, she goes to take. a shower and she's annoyed by the, now I'm at the quote, dark, wispy strands against white tile,

clogging the drains, tumbling in the corners. That straight, unfussy hair I had once coveted, I didn't know if I'd ever stopped finding it. Harrison told me that when his cleaning woman first showed up after the funeral, he'd sent her away. Curious at the thought of someone moving anything his wife had touched. Eventually, I vacuumed up all her dust on my own. Wow. That says so much. We're on page 10 and you know that much about her because of how succinct it is. So I just, I had to read those because I'm blown away. I can't always read this. I know. Yeah, I know. But then I was like, oh my gosh, coincidentally, there's some strong. I felt really similarly about this about. Yeah. Yeah. I think you may have said that when we talked about it in our

episode that came out on Friday. I think you might have said it kind of was like, don't forget the girl. Yeah. I was like, oh, you're right. Oh, yeah. We just have some kind of vibes that we brought this up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, we, we love your writing and we all love succinct sentences. I do think that, because there's something about, don't forget the girl like that, where it just felt so familiar somehow. And like, I mean, maybe you don't know, but it's like, do you think it's just from being a woman or like from being a friend or like, they're interesting about it that felt so familiar? I wonder. if part of it is we're like of maybe the same generation. I don't know if that is so we have sort of a shared

lexicon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've kind of come of age through the same sort of weird meat grinder that we as a woman we all did. Like yeah, that makes sense. Experiencing the same news stories that you think about things in similar ways. Like our fears are similar. Yeah. I think that is probably. Yeah. I think that is Yeah, yeah. It's like that meme that's like a woman, a man's biggest fear is that she'll laugh at him on a date. And a woman's biggest fear is that she'll kill her on the date. You're like, oh, cool. I was thinking about that quote because I was listening to Ashley Flowers' new book.

I was listening to the audiobook of it. And I was hiking kind of like out at Southwestern Park alone. And I usually have, like, hopper spray or something and I had forgotten it. And then I'm, like, listening to, you know, and I was just like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It sucks that you have to think about it.

I know. I even, like, I don't get too worried about it. No, it's weird about it. So I live in, like, a suburb. Okay. Like, we're, like, Whitesown. Okay. Yeah.

She knows where that is. It's somewhat. But, like, Vinyl Village. I am not saying that nothing bad happens there. I'm just saying it's like, it's a sleepy town with, like, a bunch of, like, elementary school families. And I have two reactive dogs who need to walk where there are not other dogs. So I also live in a town that's, like, all corn and warehouses.

So, like, all the Amazon warehouses you hear about, I'm in the part of the flat Midwest. Yeah. We are a part of it where there's a lot of that. So there's like warehouses corn. And so we say- A flip feeling. We say we take them to the warehouse district to walk them. Because there's like a really poor excuse for a park in between all of it.

Yeah. Employees can go walk on their lunch break or whatever. But thankfully no one's there. All of that to say. One time gear found out that I will do it. Like I'm doing it like right before the sun comes up. Sometimes, especially in the winter when it's so much later and I have to need to get their energy out of the way. and sometimes he's like, Kate, Tyler is traveling and you are walking your dogs and it's not

very dark and he's like, like, he got like so mad at me and I'm like, here, I think I'm okay. But then at the same time, I understand that he's right. And on the flip side, if you don't know, I have two pits. I don't know if he was really going to be coming for me. They're noisy. Yeah, I very nice. Hopefully help. Yeah.

I mean, that's the interesting thing about like the true crime of it all where it's like, it's like we hope that we'll learn how to yes be tired but then it's also just like statistically it's more likely to be someone we know and so it's you know it just is it's a weird a weird thing i think i don't know in some ways i think that's what was appealing to me about true crime or something i don't know it felt less scary in some ways that it would be like random versus like the reality which is like often that's where your islands come That one's like sadder. Eight.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also the thing, too, of like, am I going to not live my life because I'm scared? Exactly. Exactly. Don't want to not. Like, I'm not going to let you win.

And, like, also some of the newer information or opinions coming out of, like, how about you teach your boys to, like, not be, you know, there's that. So it's just like a really interesting dynamic at play. Like, you don't want to be completely flippant to, like, what can happen. But at the same time, it's like, we need to function. Right. And that's a really stupid problem that we have. Yes, absolutely. It is. Were you a professor when you were writing it? I was. Yeah. Nice. In the timeline. Yeah. So it's interesting. Sometimes I write stuff because, like, it's an experience I've had. Other times I write stuff because I can't understand why someone would behave in a certain manner and I want to like write to a place of understanding or like empathy. And that was definitely the thing with like, breathe. and the student where like I was just like I don't understand and she was and she runs into him with his mom like early on right and I just like oh and I just like I am that is something that like I am judgy about because of like the power dynamic um but then I sort of was like by the end I was like

okay I see it doesn't excuse it I see what brought her to this place because she's so damaged from yeah yeah like why not yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, that's what I just saw someone, who was it? I think, I don't know, who was saying like the worst, the worst advice is when someone tells you like, just write what you know. And she's like, it's fine to write what you know, but like, you don't have to just write what you know. I'm like, especially like, uh, Gare has a joke like when we first got to know each other and he learns that like I do love like, uh, spy action thrillers and we have an episode where he's like, you are so, you're so. You're. just such an adventurous woman and I was like, I'm adventurous from my couch. Let's add the asterisk. So even with reading, that's what's sometimes fun is like, I will never, I will never be a spy. But you get to like access. Yeah. I know. I tell my students, like I think that like write what you know, I feel like write what you know emotionally. Yeah. The other stuff. I mean, we see that with like fantasy or, you know, other genres. But I don't know. I think it's like, yeah, you can definitely.

write experiences outside of your own as long as you're like grounding it and something you know because otherwise they think it'd be super boring if I wrote only like my yeah oh yeah nobody nobody wants yeah to hear about my like eight hours of work each day what also is like oh so you're only writing what you know huh yeah right right which i am people who write nonfiction write memoir things like that i am really like that must be such a particular experience to have it sort of like all yeah yeah this is me nerding out we bought masterclass um because i'm going to be narrating an audio book so exciting yeah um and there were i was just like okay it came out of nowhere someone just called and asked if i would do it because she'd listen to my podcast saggy i don't have to

keep it quiet we've announced it so cool um and i was like okay you're right like i i have the setup i can edit like this makes sense but I was like, I've never even paid attention to like, or I've never taken a voice acting class. Anyway, there's a voice acting class on there. But the first one we watch is actually from Michael Lewis, who exclusively writes fiction. He wrote Moneyball. He wrote The Big Short. Okay, yeah.

He wrote The Blind Side. So he writes nonfiction, but very much from a place where like the things that he sees in his life, he then gets, he's like, I think I want to know more. I think there's a story here. I think there's something to pay attention to here. So to your point with nonfiction, it was fascinating listening to a nonfiction writer. I bet. Because there's actually so much, which it shouldn't be surprising, there's so much of storytelling that is so similar. Like, still so similar. He just can't force the facts to be what he needs them to be. I've only done a little bit of like, only like short form like creative nonfiction,

but it is kind of in some ways nice. Yeah. Obviously you know the plot. The question is just just sort of like how do you make it interesting how my goodness sort of restructure it or whatever yes yeah it was fascinating it was the first time that I was like I want to write something nonfiction because I do I had a lot of the feelings that he's talking about where like I'm definitely he's definitely get hyper fixated that's why I built a book wild empire so I get hyper fixated on things and when I get really interested I'm like learning everything and I was like it was the first time where I was like okay so nonfiction could still be a really interesting story-telling format, not just fact reporting.

Yep. Yeah. So, yeah, I took us all the way to nonfiction. I enjoy that about. I remember when we were doing our meeting for, like, the Midwest Book Club, we were talking about before you had mentioned, like, some of your favorite books. Like, do you, I'd love to hear that. Okay.

But then also, like, if you know that someone loved your book, are there other books that you've read that you feel like have similar vibes? Yes. Okay. Because I like, I'm like, sometimes when I find a book I love, I'm like, I don't want the same story obviously. Yes. But I loved like the style of it, the vibes of it. And it's sometimes really hard. I'm like, can we get a Pandora of books or something?

Because like, the absolute do you hear me. They're not. The first one that I thought of is when I read the summer, it came out, I don't think too far from when mine did, but I couldn't read it at the time because it felt, you know, but it's Knife River by Justine Champagne. I think it's really got gorgeous writing and great characterization. Justine Champagne. That's it. We'll link it. But the premise is there are two sisters.

Their mom is sort of presumed murdered, but they obviously have a lot of questions, and one comes back home to town, and then there's sort of like a, there's a break in the case. And then it kind of goes from there. And I just think, like, it has reveals and it has twists, but they're all, like, I think really well done, really thematically relevant. The characterization is great. The writing is just gorgeous. just really loved it.

Yeah. And I felt like, oh, okay, they're kind of in conversation. There's another one, and she's a friend. She teaches that Marian Rachel Cochran. She wrote The Gulf. And I would say it's also kind of like literary mystery where there's been a hurricane in a town and there's kind of a mysterious death and there's sort of questions about why that happened and an estranged maybe friend.

kind of comes back to town. Yeah. So those are two that I think are kind of like in the same. As we've as we've been talking, it's been reminding me of some. So I'll just share some notes on an execution. Yeah. Very very similar. In a very different story, but it's all about the women who this killer,

the women's lives that this killer. affected. So notes on an execution. The other interesting thing when you were talking about how kind of like at the end, like we're pretty sure Blue did it. But also kind of aren't just like a lot of families end up feeling. And Ashley Winsteads this book will bury me really grapples with. I haven't read that one yet.

Control and like wanting answers and like thinking that like if you have answers, maybe you'll have control over something tragic that happens. And so it again, another thing where it, but it does have true crime and it does have, there's not a podcast in that one. No, that black housewife. It's like them being an online group. Oh, interesting. It's kind of like a, it's like don't fuck with cats is like the funny, like it's a group of sluice that figure stuff out online. So it grapples with that part that's very similar.

And then bright young women, I always think of bright young women as well. Yeah. Cool. I think it's interesting, just like some of the things we've naturally talked about with the quotes that I've saved. It's wild. About like assumptions and things like that. I did highlight a quote about Ted Cruz that I thought was amazing. But I also thought it was really interesting, this character of Jessica, who she is a certain, kind of like right on women, I guess. It's like a surviving person of there was an attack at a sorority that Lou, I believe, was found guilty of.

And she's disfigured from it. And they're talking about how, like, Lou gets this, like, super sexy Disney guy, like, to play him. And it's like, well, what does Jessica get? And it's just, like, so wild. Yeah. I mean, the theme we've talked about this whole time, but I just think, like, her character was such a great ad. Because it's like Abby obviously isn't because like is Abby part of this, isn't she? But like Jessica for sure was.

Yeah. And it's like how often do people talk to Jessica? Right. She's absolutely impacted her whole life. And then like, yeah, I don't know. It is just weird how. Because I'll often start events out where I'll be like, how many people know the name Ted Bundy? And everyone's like me.

And then I'm like, how many people know this name of a victim? Nope. And so, yeah, just as like, and even especially it's, I think we often think of the victims that are not alive. Yeah. The surviving victims of some of these things. I don't know. It's almost, I wonder a part of it is like, it's that, that is like the line where it becomes almost too horrific. Because if you have to hear from this person, then you have to recognize the trauma and the real impact.

And it makes it real and not the spooky story that you want to like, I don't know. That's what's hard. I won't get into the whole thing. that's always what's hard for me. Like, true crime doesn't, it's hard for me to consume. I am not saying anyone who does is unethical or anyone who talks about it. I think there are unethical ways to do it. There's definitely that.

But that's what's hard about, I just don't end up consuming it because it's like, they're just, they are real people. Like, I just read scary stuff in fiction. Yeah. Yeah. Because unlike in real life, like you don't have living loved ones that are being like retramatized by, you know, so yeah, it's really, I think, complicated. Yeah. It's really hard. Then I've also, I've heard from loved ones of victims where they sort of have to leverage it to funeral costs or funeral costs or for just attention on the case because I'm hoping it'll get solved. And so it is like, that's such a complicated. And for some of them, it feels like they are being remembered if they're talked about it, which is like why I'm saying they're ethical ways to do it too.

But it's more sad for me. Obviously, I've cried in fiction, but it's really hard for you to listen to something knowing someone's like real, a real person who went through that. Well, in this book particularly, I think we haven't talked much about Rachel, about how she really does seem to take the pieces that we don't always hear about. And she does lift them up. And you kind of don't know at first, like which. way is she going and it was really nice that like she did do it justice yeah although her methods are

not unusual well insjustifies means is the eternal discussion let me know that's true and also like i don't know go chelsea i'm not sure right i know it's hard to know it's just good though like it is layered enough that yeah it's every every character's layered enough that you're like oh man well i understand why this person did that. People always feel bad for Daniel, though. Like, poor Daniel. I know. I mean, life is my life is messy. That's true. My favorite books, it's like, it's gray. It's messy. Like, being a type A person, like I, it helps. Like, books like this help me and be like a more flexible human being. Same. Yeah. That is the other part of fiction that I enjoy. To remember that you are everyone that I am meeting, like meeting. Anyone you're passing. Like,

what helps me when I'm having a rough day and not liking humanity as a whole is like everyone that you're like coming into contact with just had like all of the other stupid shit happened in their morning that made them like what the fuck my Monday's going wrong and and

my kid isn't talking to me right now because she's a moody teenager like we all we meet people and we like see something and like they have just as much crazy shit that's going on as like you're ringing into that situation and books help help you,

I hope you conceptualize that because you're in someone's brain for so long. That is the thing about reading like the empathy, that I think is really, yeah, huge. That's all. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Do you want to know why I think that both of us love this book so much also? Okay. So like, um, one of the quotes I said was, you're allowed to be who you are, even if that's inconvenient for some people, resaid,

even if it's inconvenient for you. And like one of, I told my husband we read an inconvenient woman. If you've never read that yet you're not, It's trying it. But I told my husband one of my goals is to be inconvenient. Mm-hmm. And so I think that's like, it is. Yeah.

Like go to a way if we were resonating with that. Yeah. Well, I do normally at the end ask if you've read anything recently that you've loved. We may have talked about it off mic, so you can still use the same one. I mean, I would, yeah, I would say Knife River, I just really, really adored. Yeah. It's really beautifully written. And just also a page turner.

or two. Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect. Mine's, I'm reading doll parts by Penny Zang as you all now. I can't wait now. I sound so. Yeah. I am addicted and like I need to finish it because I need to send her questions by Monday night. I'm on chapter four and I'm like, wait am I going to do this?

You already have. Yeah. It's true. That's true. So I'm really enjoying it. And I just started, oh, I started listening to Black Sheeper. Hi. Hi. I said you're going to lot it. Every Rachel Harrison book I'm such a, I've never met her in person, but I, like, am always, like, you know, sending in stories tagging her. So she must be like, who's this weird being girl?

But I'm sure she's a million. But every time a new Rachel Harrison book comes out, it's like a holiday. Because it's usually, like, every September. She's going to be here September 9th with wild geese. Okay. I have to sign up for that. Yes, I'm going. Because I just, like, it's such a treat every fall to see, like, what weird millennial female.

And it's such a sweet spot of horror where it's, it's creepy. but it speaks to the female experience, but it's not like so dark kind of in through horror. And then tons of satire and snarky. The voices. The humor. Yeah.

I really love her. Yeah. I am, my fingers are crossed. A couple of three or four days ago, I got an email from a publicist asking if I wanted to have her on for an interview. And I was like, yes. Oh, my goodness. Yes.

I was like, and I'm already signed up for her event. If there's a way that she could do an person one let me know be so cool and i was like otherwise here dates for virtual so we still don't know but i'm just going to have it on camera just in case it does it's in person now it's it's here yeah i just sign up for that event yeah it's i'll be there it's going to be pretty fun um so yeah i'm so glad we got to do this really nice though thank you both this was really fun yes this was so fun