Bookwild - Rob Hart and Alex Segura's Dark Space: Espionage, Conspiracies and A Mission Gone Wrong

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

This week, I talk with Rob Hart and Alex Segura about their new space thriller Dark Space.  We dive into their world building, their joint writing process, and how speculative fiction helps us examine present truths.Dark Space SynopsisIf life were fair, ace pilot Jose Carriles should have ended up a desk jockey like his former friend Corin Timony, back on the lunar colony of New Destiny. Instead, he’s the pilot of the Mosaic—a massive ship taking the Interstellar Union’s first-ever mission to outside our solar system.Timony should have been the best spy at the Bazaar, the lunar colony’s international intelligence arm. Instead, she’s been demoted to admin duties like monitoring long-range communications. She has no one to blame but herself—and maybe Carriles.But when the Mosaic experiences a series of strange malfunctions and Carriles is forced to take a wild gamble to save the ship, he begins to suspect the reasons behind the exploratory mission weren’t exactly on the up-and-up.At the same time, Timony’s old instincts kick in as she realizes the distress call she received from the Mosaic has been wiped without a trace.As people start to end up dead and loyalties are tested, Timony and Carriles find themselves entangled in a star-spanning conspiracy that drags them through the darkest corners of their government—and their own personal failures—and face-to-face with a reckoning that could destroy humanity as we know it. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I've always been a big Star Wars and Star Trek fan and always wanted to like kind of play in those spaces. I've done a lot of Star Wars stuff. But the idea of doing not a space opera per se, but a more grounded take that still had those familiar elements. Like it does have things that are new, but it also does feel somewhat familiar, especially the shipside stuff. You know, you can connect that to stuff like Battlestar and Star Trek and things like that. So it was really just wanting to play in that space. And Rob has so much more experience in the speculative space. So it felt like a good fit.

We'd work well together. So it was really like me just sending him a springboard. And then the rest we built from scratch. I always start off thinking I want this to be as accurate as possible. And then I remember like, oh, wait, no, this is all made up. Like, I feel like we came from a place of like wanting like the logic to track. Like, not that it not to be, it didn't need to be 100% correct. It just needed to be believe.

cool. And then there was there were also points where I just kind of threw it out the window. I'm like, Neil deGrasse Tyson's going to get mad at this and I don't care. I'd rather write a fun story and you know, like I don't want to do like what Andy Weir does where like with the Martian where like everything is like scientifically accurate to like a decimal point. You know, like I feel like that we wanted to go more for like a pulpy feel. This week I got to talk with Rob Hart and Alex Tagura about their new thrill. that just came out called Dark Space. It is really an espionage thriller that happens to have space related to it as well.

And if you know how much I've loved everything that Rob has written, you would probably love this too. But here's what it's about. If life were fair, ace pilot Jose Carillas should have ended up a desk jockey like his former friend, Corinne Timony, back on the lunar colony of New Destiny. Instead, he's the pilot of the mosaic. a massive ship taking the interstellar union's first ever mission to outside our solar system. Timony should have been the best spy at the bazaar, the lunar colony's international intelligence arm. Instead, she's been demoted to admin duties like monitoring long-range communications. She has no one to blame but herself and maybe Carillas.

But when the mosaic experiences a series of strange malfunctions and Carillas is forced to take a wild gamble to save the ship, He begins to suspect the reasons behind the exploratory mission weren't exactly on the up and up. At the same time, Timony's old instincts kick in as she realizes the distress call she received from the mosaic has been wiped out without a trace. As people start to end up dead and loyalties are tested, timony and Krillas find themselves entangled in a star-spanning conspiracy that drags them through the darkest corners of their government and their own personal failures and face-to-face with a reckoning that could destroy humanity, as we know it. I loved this book. I loved it picks up right in the middle of action, which is something I always love. As much as there are some slow burns out there that I love, there is something about just getting right to it that works for me. We start off right in the middle of it all. We are trying to figure out what's happening right alongside Jose and Corinne. And Corinne's part,

especially, really does feel like a spy thriller or it was even reminding me, of kind of like CIA thrillers as well. So any of that sounds interesting to you. You definitely need to get a copy of this. But for now, let's hear from Rob and Alex. So I am super excited to talk with both of you guys about dark space. But I did want to know a little bit about your writing partnership a little bit before we dive into the book itself. So what was like what was the moment of where you guys were like, we should write a book together? Well, we've known each other a long time. I think Rob and I are our careers have kind of run parallel in that.

We both came into mystery writing around the same time. And we had PI series that, you know, it kind of became an annual tradition for us to do our launch parties together. And we wrote a novella featuring our two private eye characters, Rob, Sash McKenna and my Pete Fernandez. So there was kind of, and we've written a graphic novel together. So we kind of had a foundation of working together and working together well. We'd never, I don't think either of us had written a book with anyone else. But I had this loose idea and I just ping Rob and he immediately said yes. And then we were kind of off to the races.

Yeah, I think you just like send me a text message. And you're like, hey, want to jam on this sci-fi idea and make it into a book? And I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? Yeah. So I think we both are pretty sympathetico in terms of like work ethic and neither of us are super precious. about, you know, Rob says this too. It's like best idea wins. Like we're not, you know, at the end of the day, it's both of our names on the book. So it's not, no one's going to be able to tell. This is the Alex section. Though people have tried. They've, I've, early readers of Dark Space are like, oh, you wrote these parts. And it's fun to say, no, I don't remember who wrote

what part. And that's the cool part of co-writing. If you do it right, you can't really tell at the end, who did what. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just kind of surprised by that. Like, it's not just that people aren't getting it, it's that they're getting it wrong. They were like, oh, you wrote this part. And I'm like, no, I didn't. You both did. Or Alex did. Or I don't remember because we were writing it and editing it at the same time.

But, you know, I think that the big thing that's such a huge help is that we were both journalists. So yeah, it's exactly. It's like we both get the importance of just writing toward the end goal as opposed to like writing toward like someone's ego. Yeah. That's, that's really cool. And I would have figured that I knew who was writing which, but now I'm assuming I'm wrong.

So how did you guys approach that? Did you like outline it together and pick chapters to write or what was that process like? I think it was like it was kind of fluid. I mean, when we started out, we did do a lot of outlining. So we had like a pretty hefty document when we started out, which for a book like this, I think is important when you're dealing with like such different locations and there's so much going on and so many characters. But usually it would be like, I would write a little bit and then Alex would jump in and edit and then write a little bit more and then I would jump in and edit and write a little bit more. So even though there are two POV characters, we also, we both wanted to write each character. We didn't want to say like, you know, Alex is only going to write Carillis and I'm only going to write timony.

Like we wanted to, we wanted there to be a bit of a mix. So I feel like it also like depended on schedule sometimes too. Like there was a few points where like one of us would be really bogged down. And then the other one will be like, well, I'm just going to go in and write a few chapters then. And let's move us forward a little bit. Yeah, we alternated pretty. I think looking back, we alternated pretty consistently. And we each, we each would write two chapters basically one or two sections with each POV.

So I would write a Carillas and a timony chapter. And then that would go back to Rob. And we would edit what the other person wrote, basically. Not in terms of like rewriting too heavily, but just logic stuff and tweaking. and I think it made for a cohesive voice, a surprisingly cohesive voice, because sometimes you read co-written books and you can tell where things break. But thankfully, nobody seems to be able to tell. Even I can't tell, so.

Yeah, there are a couple of points where, like, when we were going through the editorial phase, when we were doing like the final cleanups that I'm looking at it, and I'm like, I don't remember which one of us wrote this. Yeah. That's cool, though. Yeah. Yeah, it was a good way to collaborate. And we also, we had a pretty tight outline.

But, you know, we start with a Google Doc just like looking at the characters and fleshing those out, fleshing out the world. You know, I think sci-fi, speculative fiction, you know, you have to do a lot of world building before you even get to the story. Like, that helps you kind of winnow down to that point of story that you want to hit. Yeah, that was going to be my next question because it is, like, it's a space and sci-fi thriller. But in some ways, it kind of feels like speculative fiction just in that it doesn't feel too far off that we would be. well, we are trying to go to different planets and stuff. So what was the world building like? Because we have Timeney, who's on basically a moon.

And then Kerales is basically up in space. So kind of two really distinct settings. How did you guys create those? You know, I always start off thinking, I want this to be as accurate as possible. And then I remember like, oh, wait, no, this is all made up. Yeah. Like I feel like we came from a place of like wanting like the logic to track like not that it not it to be it didn't need to be 100% correct.

It just needed to be believable. And then there was there were also points where I just kind of threw it out the window. I'm like Neil deGrasse Tyson's going to get mad at this and I don't care. He's really. Yeah. I'd rather on the story and you know like I don't want to do like what Andy Weir does where like with the Martian where like everything is like scientifically accurate to like a fun story. And you know like I don't want to do like what Andy Weir does where like with the Martian where like everything is like scientifically accurate to like a. decimal point, you know, like, I feel like that we wanted to go more for like a pulpy feel.

I was, I think we were both really interested in making sure the kind of political stuff felt like it tracked and the socioeconomic stuff felt like it tracked in a broad way. Like, you could see this happening if you're looking at it from 30,000 feet. But the kind of nuts and bold science of it, you know, Rob was better at that than I was. I think I was more prone to being like, attacking on bursts, set them free or whatever. you know, like Star Trek does that so often. They just kind of go into like Trek speak and you just not along and get to the next story point. So, but I think in terms of humanity and society, it is a believable situation to be in. Yeah. Yeah, there was definitely stuff that felt

relevant to everything going on right now for sure. Was there anything that drew you guys to wanting to write a space thriller? Or was it just kind of like, Alex, you kind of had an idea and that was where it was? I always, I've always been a big Star Wars and Star Trek fan and always wanted to like kind of play in those spaces. I've done a lot of Star Wars stuff. But the idea of doing not a space opera per se, but a more grounded take that still had those familiar elements. It's like it does have things that are new, but it also does feel somewhat familiar, especially the shipside stuff. You know, you can connect that to stuff like Battlestar and Star Trek and things like that. So it was really just wanting to play in that space.

And Rob has so much more experience in the speculative space. So it felt like a good fit. We'd worked well together. So it was really like me just sending him a springboard and then the rest we built from scratch. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of fun because I, I. I like the sci-fi stuff because then it's like, because I've always been fascinated by science and especially like theoretical scientific concepts. And so, you know, if I can find an excuse to do like, you know, take like stuff like spooky action at a distance and, you know, gravity manifolds in space and kind of like turn them into something in a working story, then I'm just going to be as happy as can be.

Yeah. I felt like the was new. The spy, I mean, you do see a lot of ground. I think Andor was a big touchstone for us, but also you don't see a lot of grounded kind of espionage, sci-fi stuff happening. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but that felt like a fun filter to pour those familiar elements through. Yeah, that was going to be my next question because I love that part.

No, you're good. I love spy thrillers. Like, that's always fun for me and just action thrillers in general. But this way kind of is a genre mashup because like you're saying, she's on the moon. She's kind of navigating politics the way like a spy would have to. There's also kind of like a who done it element when people start disappearing. And then there's like the space element as well. So did you guys know you wanted to put all of those genres together when you started outlining or did it kind of like come out as you were writing it?

I mean, I think it was clear from the jump because I'm pretty sure, like what we've been calling it is like if John Lockeuree wrote an episode of Star Trek. And I think that's one of the first things you said to me, Alex. Yeah. That was exactly the vibe that you wanted to go for. And that's one of the reasons that I was so excited about the idea because it was like, yeah, yeah, I want to see that too. Yeah, I mean, I think you have to, as writers, you have to be obsessed in the work because obsessed with the idea because otherwise you're never going to finish it. just there's so much labor that goes into creating the novel. But yeah, that hook of like a gritty spy thriller that also happens to exist on a starship felt really compelling to me. And so when

Rob came aboard and we started putting it together, it felt really substantial. Like it felt like there's a lot of meat on this bone and we could definitely see doing more in the space. So nobody intended. Right. Yeah, when I was telling my husband about it when I was reading it, I was like the cool part, because I do read a lot of thrillers, I was like, it feels like a thriller. And then like space happens to be there versus like space in all caps, like being like the like whole sense of the story. So I did like how it was like there, but it was like not also like the most important part of the story too always. And I also thought it was kind of cool. So the two main characters, we have Carillas who's in space.

on a ship and timini who is on the moon basically but i liked how their stories are actually interconnected like their past are interconnected even though we don't see them like interfacing with each other a ton um but their stories are also this example of kind of like nepotism and like classism almost too because uh carillas is like his mom is a notable senator. So when they both get in trouble for something, she basically loses the job that she loves and has to do a desk job, but he still gets to captain this ship. So was that like always an integral part of the story to you guys as well? You know, I don't think it came up initially. Like I think as the characters started to be fleshed out while we, you know,

our Google Doc looked like you spilled rainbow paint into a Google Doc. Like there's just so many edits and tweaks and revisions. But I think once we got to the heart of who we wanted our POV characters to be, then we started to think about, well, what's the connective tissue and how do they play off each other? And I think the idea of like Karela is failing upward or continuing to fall upward because of his privilege was a really smart. You know, it came up as we were talking and it really just shows the difference between these two characters and how they've experienced like failure. Yeah, yeah. And I kind of, I liked playing with this. idea of, you know, having these two characters, like, like, that's, that was kind of the challenge

was that you had these two main characters who were connected, but are literally like light years apart and not even really in contact with each other. So it was important to kind of find that, that connective tissue to like make it, to make you understand why these are the two characters that were telling the story and what they needed to heal with themselves, but also kind of with each other. And, uh, you know, that's why when, I mean, this isn't a spoiler to say that obviously they eventually cross paths in the story. And when they do, it was just really satisfying to get there and be like, hey, cool, this is fun. Yeah.

That was actually part of what I mentioned what you were just touching on in my review was that it is really satisfying that the external plot does, like, help both of them with their, like, internal struggles by the end of it. Like, that ends up helping them face that stuff. So, yeah, that was basically something I love. loved about it too. Without spoiling the plot, there is, there's kind of this examination of colonization or how countries or people just like force their will on others when they're not getting what they want from them, basically. And I feel like that's kind of a common theme in sci-fi or speculative fiction. Do you guys feel like there's a reason that that, like, fits well in that genre? I mean, I think there's a degree to where.

which, you know, when you're writing about, writing speculative fiction, when you're writing about the future, it's kind of like there's this mix, at least I personally feel internally, where on one hand, it's like this frustration at the fact that we haven't been able to learn from our mistakes. Because if you look at the course of human history, like, we are better off now than we used to be, but we're still doing a lot of really, really dumb stuff because we're not learning important lessons along the way. But I think there's also like a hopefulness that we will learn those lessons at some point. point and sometimes it takes blowing it out of proportion into like a space story in order to sort of like really underscore what some of those issues are. Yeah. Yeah. Like what are the big recurring mistakes that superpowers make? And like if the United States was still in a position of power, what things would it do with in this new setting? So we tried to play it as more of a progression of things that exist now because that's how we envisioned it evolving. And I think those are still our problems today that, you know, if you put it in a different

situation where we have the capability to explore deep space, then yeah, the U.S.'s first thought would probably be like, how do we claim this territory for our own? Or what can we do to like take the things that are good there and use them for our own means because we've abused our situation? And it's not just the U.S. I mean, there's the way we have it set up, the political structure is that there's a few superpowers, but that's pretty close to how things are now. So yeah. Yeah. And it's the same way now where like they all like smile and shake hands in front of the camera and that behind the camera everyone's trying to stab each other in the back. Right. Yeah. Really really great vibes to have with our leaders. Yeah. Yeah. You're kind of touching on it now too. Like there's there's another theme or question, big question about humanity and how destructive some humans are.

but then there are a lot that are actually good people too. So kind of just like the dichotomy of those things both existing at the same time. And was that something you wanted to include from the beginning or was that something that kind of showed up as you were writing it? I think you always want complicated characters. I mean, the villain always thinks they're the hero. The hero, you know, shouldn't feel like such a pure, pure-hearted hero. Like, I love complicated characters with flaws that have their own demons to overcome to even be of help to the bigger problem. And I think Carilla's and Timney are good

examples of that. I think Timney very much feels like a PI character, like this flawed, tainted night that is struggling to overcome her problems to do any good. But I think also for the quote-unquote villains in the book, you feel like you can almost understand why they did the things they did because they were in these situations where it benefited them or it benefited their mission. So I think the goal is always to present readers with conflicted characters that they can relate to across the board. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I always come from this place of like,

I just assume all power structures are corrupt because anyone who's seeking power, you know, probably shouldn't have power. If that's the thing that you want, you want it for a reason. But so I and I love being in that space where it's like, you know, I think the common man and woman has, you know, more hope for the future and more ability to strive for that hope, whereas it always feels like whoever's in charge is just trying to figure out how to like strip mine everything for their own benefit. Yeah.

Yeah, because it kind of comes down to like you're saying, where you can sometimes understand the villain is like, in this case, the desire to survive is a big part of that, basically. And so then it's kind of easy to like get into a gray area basically because you're like, well, this is so that I can survive. But it the book also then still kind of focuses on how like it's still worth it to think of the group as a whole and not just be thinking about yourself. So was that probably kind of along the same lines too? Like you still wanted to have that conversation as well.

Oh yeah. No, I think, you know, not to turn this into too much of a political, you know, rant, but, you know, I think a lot of the problems in American society today are based on this, like, myth of like rugged individualism that, you know, like, I'm the only person who can do this and I'm the person who like, I have to pull myself up by my bootstraps and all this, this nonsense. Whereas I think collective thought and collective action is so much stronger and so much better to live in a society where we're. helping each other and giving each other a hand versus saying like, well, you know, I got mine. So you can go screw. So it's kind of, it's fun to play in that space of like, you know, putting people in this position of remembering that it's not just about you. Yeah, I mean, empathy is good.

It's good to not just think about yourself or think about your immediate needs and kind of consider the greater good. And I think that is what differentiates quote unquote heroes from villains. Like the villains in our book are self-interested. selfish and looking to improve their lot, gain power, while the heroes, even as flawed as they are, are at least taking a minute to consider, well, maybe this is not okay. You know, maybe I'll get through this fine, but there's other people that are going to suffer as a result. So maybe we should not do this bad thing.

And that's just a very simplified version of it. But I think having empathy and being considered of others is something that I'd love to see more of in the world. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. So I've been asking people at the end if they've read anything recently that they loved. Have you guys been reading lately? Yes, I have been reading. What have I been reading?

That's been good. Almacatsu had a great little series of mini spy thrillers that are on Amazon. I forget what the Kind of little kind of, little mini novellas, I guess. Yeah. The first one is called The Vanishing Man that really has the genre. the Karei vibes up to a 20, but it feels very modern at the same time, which I think is a hard thing to do.

What else have I been reading? Sorry, Rob, go ahead. I'll look at my like Kindle. Oh, I'm, I'm, actually, I've been so underwater that I haven't been reading a lot recently, but I did read Exhibit by R. O'Quan, which I really, really like. Oh, that was good. Yeah. Yeah.

She's awesome. Oh, one book that I read that was really great was Our Wives Under the Sea. It's a really short book. It's by Julia Armfield. And it's about this queer couple. One of the partners goes on this underwater expedition and comes back severely changed. But it's really, this sounds depressing, but it's a really deep analysis of like the idea of marriage and partnership and like how things change and how relationships evolve through the prism of this very creepy underwater horror idea. And so I don't want to spoil anything.

It is a quick read. You would probably read in like a day or two. It's like 200 pages or so. But it just kind of left me thinking about it for weeks, which is always a good sign. Yeah. That's awesome. That's cool. There's that quote that like if you're married to someone, you fall in love with like 50 different people over the course of the life with them.

So it sounds like it's kind of like that, but with some thriller or horror elements to it. Yeah. It does this thing where you have the present day storyline. where the partner who stayed home is dealing with her partner who's come back completely different and doing these strange things and then flashbacks to them from the viewpoint of the other partner when things were great and how they fell in love. And it just is a little bit of a downer, you know, about how relationships can change and kind of be different from what that novelty or the rush of like romance.

But it's also very grounding. I also read this book called The Path to Paradise about Francis Ford Coppola making Apocalypse now that was really fascinating. Just basically how he had to immerse himself in that process and launching Zotrope entertainment and just in just the crazy 70s film scene. It was pretty Sam Wassen Wausen did the book. He wrote a good book about Chinatown as well. Nice.

That sounds very interesting. He was a movie not Lee in neighborhood. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Where can people follow you guys to stay up to date on everything? I am at rob whart.com on the web. I mostly use Instagram and threads these days, which is at Robbwhart1. And then I've got a substack at robwhart.shart.substack.com.

Yeah, I'm at Alexegra.com. The only social I really use is Instagram, Alexegra, jr, and also on substack, Alexegra. com. And that's where I post pretty much every other week about what's coming up, what like new releases are coming and things like that nice well i will put those links in the show notes for everyone and hopefully i will be reading more from you guys together in the future yeah we love to do more i think we can uh write another one of these yeah well thank you so much for talking about it with me thanks for having you all this