Bookwild - Rob Hart: The Paradox Hotel

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Rob Hart about his action packed, contemplative sci-fi thriller The Paradox Hotel.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsWebsiteCheck out her company WriteWay at her website as well!Check out the book hereThe Paradox Hotel SynopsisJanuary Cole’s job just got a whole lot harder.Not that running security at the Paradox was ever really easy. Nothing’s simple at a hotel where the ultra-wealthy tourists arrive costumed for a dozen different time periods, all eagerly waiting to catch their “flights” to the past.Or where proximity to the timeport makes the clocks run backward on occasion—and, rumor has it, allows ghosts to stroll the halls.None of that compares to the corpse in room 526. The one that seems to be both there and not there. The one that somehow only January can see.On top of that, some very important new guests have just checked in. Because the U.S. government is about to privatize time-travel technology—and the world’s most powerful people are on hand to stake their claims.January is sure the timing isn’t a coincidence. Neither are those “accidents” that start stalking their bidders.There’s a reason January can glimpse what others can’t. A reason why she’s the only one who can catch a killer who’s operating invisibly and in plain sight, all at once.But her ability is also destroying her grip on reality—and as her past, present, and future collide, she finds herself confronting not just the hotel’s dark secrets but her own.At once a dazzlingly time-twisting murder mystery and a story about grief, memory, and what it means to—literally—come face-to-face with our ghosts, The Paradox Hotel is another unforgettable speculative thrill ride from acclaimed author Rob Hart. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Welcome back to another episode of Between the Lines. I'm here today with Rob Hart, who is the author of The Paradox Hotel, Hell, which was maybe my favorite sci-fi book that I've ever read or maybe any book that I've read. So thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me. And that is really high praise.

I really appreciate that. Yeah. I could not put it down. And when I finished it, I was like sitting next to my husband. And I was like, that was the most perfect ending I've read in a while because endings are hard to do. But we'll get to that later in the spoiler section. I don't want to talk about it yet.

So first, I wanted to know a little bit more about you. So when did you know that you wanted to be an author or when did you like know you wanted to write your first story? I would say, I mean, I was always an artistic kid and I was always encouraged with my writing in like grade school and in high school. But I was always more of like an artist. I drew a lot. I was like that kid in class who could like, you know, draw stuff good. And I ended up going into an arch-nostic. conservatory for college and just when I got there realized like wow this is not for me like

when I was in an environment doing it full time I was like nope and uh so I was like 18 I was kind of failing out of college my first semester and I was like you know maybe I should give this writing thing a try you know because I dig that and I've always been pretty good at that and I ended up jumping into the journalism program because I figured like okay like this is a practical way to apply writing for now and I knew when I was 18, I was like, yeah, it'd be really cool to write novels. I would love to write novels. But, you know, it's going to take a little while to get there.

So, yeah, so I figure, like, I decided I was going to write books when I was 18. And then my first novel came out when I was, like, 32 or 35? I can't really. In my 30s. So it took a little bit of time. So what about it took time? Was it the writing or was it, like, getting? connected with the right people. You know, it's a combination of a lot of things because, you know,

there's not really an instruction manual on how to do it, you know, because there's plenty of, like, how-to books and there's, you know, classes you can take and people you can work with. But so much of the process is like discovering your own process and figuring out how to actually do it and finding your voice. And that took a good bit of time. And I wrote one entire novel that I had to burn off because it was terrible. But a lot of authors do that, I think. Like a lot of friends have done that where it's like your first book is kind of a map. but you kind of just need to get it out of your system. And then my first novel that got published was called New York,

and that took me like five years to write. And now I can like turn around a book in like less than a year because I'm up to like eight books. I know like what my process is. But for that first one, it's tough. You're just trying to kind of figure it out. And you know, and then there's like, you know,

trying to make the right connections, like meeting people, finding an agent, all that stuff. And it's a long, frustrating road. And I was having this conversation with someone recently. They were like, you know, they were kind of like at the start. And they were like, you know, what's the best thing to do right now? I'm just like, be stubborn. Got to be real stubborn because it's going to take forever and it's going to be really hard.

And you're going to get rejected a lot. So if you're stubborn, you'll be okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you kind of spent most of it. It sounds like figuring out your process. So what is your writing process now? Do you typically know exactly where our story is going or how do you get started?

Yeah, no, I can't even start actually sitting down to write the book until I know where it starts and where it ends. Like, I really, really need that. And I outline like crazy. So I always have like a pretty clear roadmap, which I'm comfortable, like, diverging as I'm writing. You know, it's sort of like the way I explained it is that it's like you've got like an old school roadmap that takes you from point A to B. But like halfway there you see a sign for like the world's biggest ball of yarn and you're like, well, I'm going to go check that out. And you check it out. maybe it's awesome or maybe it's terrible, but you know, you still have the freedom to do that.

Right. But it's usually, it's weird. It's like it usually starts with like a stray idea. Like with Paradox Hotel, I literally just had this idea like, oh, what if there was like a hotel for time travelers? And like that was it. And then it just slowly became like, okay, like how do I build on this? How do I develop this? And then, you know, finding the underpinning of the idea and then finding the character.

And then, you know, kind of once I have those things in the pot, like it all comes together. pretty quickly. That makes a lot of sense. So do you do any planning for the characters or how do you develop the characters? You know, that's that's kind of the fun thing is that's sort of like the divination in the process where it's like, you know, I had all this stuff set up for like the world of paradox and I kind of knew how it was going to look and how it was going to work. And then just one day had this image of this woman stepping off an elevator in like this big boho hat. And I'm like, oh, there she is that that that's my main character that's january and so it just kind of like smacks me up the side of the head out of nowhere and um and that's the moment when i'm like okay like i'm ready to do this now and uh yeah it's it's just so it's so weird

it sounds ridiculous but it also like makes perfect sense in my head yeah i mean it sounds like especially when you were saying that you outline pretty intensely and like you need to know where it's going and then i was thinking about the book there is like so much world but building in so many details that I feel like, I feel like some books that are especially about time travel and then maybe sci-fi where you're kind of world building a little bit, you are going to need to have those details a lot. And then it sounds like the character part is like the more free-flowing part for you maybe. Yeah, yeah, essentially. Because it's like, you know, I don't have a deficit of ideas. I've got like a million ideas. It's ridiculous.

Like I, like whenever I have an idea that I think has like the slightest bit of legs, I create a Google Doc for it so that like if more things come to me on that idea I have a place to like dump information like news articles or notes or whatever and I can go through my Google Docs now I mean there's stuff that I wrote down like years ago that I don't even remember what I meant now

like there's one that's like alien fight club and I'm like what was that like was I drunk that night and but but it's it's I mean it sounds intriguing you know and maybe it's something I'll end up doing but yeah essentially it's like sooner or later, like when the characters pop up, that's when I know like, because the ideas are essentially useless until you can hang it on like a really good character, you know, because

that's, that's kind of the key is those two things have to be in conversation with each other. Yeah, I completely agree. There are some books that are like, yeah, the plot was kind of exciting, but I didn't feel connected to anyone. And so then it's like, it doesn't like stick in my mind as much when I'm done reading it. So how would you describe the paradox hotel in a couple sentences? You know, it's funny, it's such a hard book to describe, but I keep on telling people. I'm like, well, it's, it's about a time travel book and it's got robots and dinosaurs. And it's also about, you know, grief and how hard it is to face yourself. And, you know, the general idea is that, you know, we're about to privatize time travel.

And this woman who's running security at the hotel for time travelers finds a dead body that only she can see and has to figure out if a crime's been committed or not. I think that's a good summary. I was, when I was trying to explain it to my husband, I was like, There's so many good things, but I might just have to, like, read you the summary because I don't know if I could just, like, free flow, explain it to you. But that was a really good summary, in my opinion, without giving anything important way. You mentioned that, like, kind of the idea came from just thinking about, like, what, if there was a hotel people stayed at to, like, then go time travel. Was that the main thing that prompted you to write it or was there anything else that prompted you to write it? I mean, you know, it started with the actual.

idea, obviously, like that sort of kernel. But then it starts getting into like, okay, like, what do I want to unpack about like myself or what out of my own bullshit do I need to sort of like, you know, explore here? Because that's what every book is. It's like, you know, the author working through something at a moment in time. And, you know, those were just some of the things that were kind of on my mind and that I was grappling with. And, you know, it was kind of seeing like how it all came together. Because like, I'm always going to write stuff. that's like anti-capitalism. I think capitalism is a bad system and I hate it so much.

So my fiction's always going to kind of revolve around that. And then it's also like it was a period of time where I was like accepting the fact that like I needed to get into therapy that I had like a lot of issues that I needed to address that I was not addressing. And it was this idea of like, you know, having to kind of like sit with yourself and like be self-reflective and see yourself in the mirror. And so yeah, it was interesting. It's like a couple of things that are usually like circling it once. And then I just start smashing them together into a book. Yeah. That is really cool.

And I've been in, I was in therapy for years as well. And so there was a lot of the book that was reminding me of myself pre-therapy. So I'm not surprised that it kind of came from a place of that. And that's probably what I really loved about like exploring the kind of the deeper topics around the story as well. Yeah. So we are going to talk about spoilers now. So if you have not read the book, just pause and go read it and come back. But if you are here already because you already read it, you can just keep listening.

So I kind of brought up the world building. And that I feel like is some of the funnest part of sci-fi books. Like reading them and maybe writing them. I'm not sure. But how did you approach like the world building for the page? Paradox Hotel. Was it kind of a separate process? Like, did you think of like the unstuck terms and the, I don't know how you would have pronounced it, but the retronym, like, did you think of all of that before it, or did you kind of figure it out as you wrote it? It was mostly before it. So the retronym is actually

was a phrase that I kind of like pilfered. It's actually like an actual thing. It's a concept. I forget what the meaning of it is. But I was like, oh, that's a great name for a medication. But yeah, I did a lot of reading about, I mean, I've always been like interested in quantum physics, you know, and time travel and stuff. Like not to the point where I'm any kind of expert, but certainly like I've picked up books on it here and there. And so I did a little bit more research about time, about how time affects the mind and stuff like that. In terms of like the facility itself, like I drew a map, like I went out and found a hotel that I thought would be like a good stand in that have a good look, which was the TWA hotel at J.W.A. AFK because it's like this great mid-century modern design. So it's like kind of like Mad Men.

So it's like, you know, kind of retro but kind of current and futuristic at the same time. So that I drew my own map of what the hotel should look like. And then I sat down and started like trying to figure out what time travel should look like in this world because it's got to be my version. And that was hard because time travel is complicated. Yeah. And I found that the more limitations I gave. myself the easier it was because at one point I decided you know what like in this reality we know how to go back in time we don't know how to go forward in time and

once I figured that out it was like oh that just took half my problems off the table you know so it's right it's a very evolving process of like you know starting with like okay like we invent time travel what's gonna happen and then thinking of it of like a funding and a regulatory perspective where it could kind of be like you know space travel where it started as a scientific endeavor and then it got perpetually underfunded over the years and now private industry is trying to get into it but like you know guys like jeff bezos and elon musk like they're not getting into space travel because they want to send rich people on like 10 minute flights up into

space they're doing it because like there are so many ways to monetize space you know like this is they're basically trying to conquer a new frontier of money making so it's like okay cool like all that how do we translate that to time travel and uh You know, and I found that it actually like, that there was a really nice, strong parallel there. There was a part where I even like highlighted it just because it was interesting kind of to your point there where they were talking about how the main reason that they were needed to be bought out is like that we were in so much debt and that China was needing us to pay back and we needed to find a way to get a lot of money into the government. And I was like, well, that sounds pretty familiar to what's happening right now. Yeah, yeah. And look, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to get too deep down the political well here. But like, it's a fairly standard tactic, especially among like Republicans and conservatives to like underfund something until it doesn't work so that they can make the argument that it ought to be privatized. Like that's basically what's been happening with the Postal Service for the last couple of years. Right. Right. Yeah. You definitely were able to kind of, I get to, when you said earlier, you are not a fan of capitalism. I was like, I'm not totally surprised.

from what I read. Yep. But it's such a, it was a really good, like, exploration of that as well. So it is a really thrilling sci-fi story, but there is, like, very much an exploration of grief. And so January is kind of just throwing herself into her work and being really abrasive with everyone to try to, like, hide from her pain, even though that's not really working. So what prompted you to include that? whole exploration of grief in the story.

Well, dealing with time travel, you know, I kind of got fascinated by this idea of like not having to let go and like having these ghosts around you of your previous life that like you can just sort of revisit and like what that would do to a person. And, you know, it's just, and grief is always like a fun thing to play with. And it's always fun to write a character who's like kind of a jerk. but you know has a good heart yes and um you know that's kind of my wheelhouse is i love like you know like really acerbic narrators um but yeah it's like time travel just seemed like a really good example for how like you know we we have a we have a hard time facing ourselves and facing our

past and like what if those things were like constantly thrust in our face like how much harder would it be yeah i think that was because i was thinking about how difficult that would be and she's like literally she has so many people telling her it's probably not safe for her to be there anymore but she's like but this is my one connection to her still so yeah she almost can't do something that she maybe needs to do for herself because she is stuck to the past basically yeah yeah yeah and that's something like and i i wish i could remember who said this because it was so brilliant and i repeat it constantly and i always precursor it because like it's not my idea i just want to make it clear because it's just so brilliant. But like I once saw someone say that like any story a character

can walk away from, a reader can walk away from, you know, and it was a really good way to kind of trap January where it's like, yes, every single, there are so many reasons that she should not be there. And but you also can't blame her for staying. Yeah. Yeah, you really can't because like you don't want, you really don't want her to leave either. Yeah. And so you do also incorporate some Buddhist elements into it. So you're kind of weaving in some of the principles of it. Like she's hearing Mina tell them to her. So you're kind of hearing it through the story. And then what like kind of blew my mind because I just wasn't expecting it necessarily was how it was kind of like going through January's own enlightenment or achieving her own

nirvana is actually like the main journey of her character. And that was what I loved about the ending. Did you know when you started the book that that was kind of like a general arc that you were going to want to include? Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, in addition to being really interested in quantum physics, I've also always been interested in Eastern philosophy and Buddhism. And, you know, it really seems to me that there is some like intertwining there of like some of the concepts. And there's actually a really good book about it called the Quantum and the Lotus. which is one of the books I read in anticipation of this. But, you know, there are things that kind of like really dovetail nicely from each other.

So I wanted to kind of play with this idea of like something that was like very scientific but very spiritual, you know. And to kind of like just swim between those two things and show the parallels between them. Now I have a new book I need to read. It's a good one. But I really, it really did feel like both of those things were almost like always having. happening in the book. And then there's also, it sounds like you kind of chose not to have people go into the future just to make the writing process easier. But there is like, because that's what you have in place, it's like they can go to the past, they can kind of change the past.

And with this block model that is the current perception of what time is like, they kind of think everything has already happened that will happen. So the future is also set in stone. But January starts having experiences where she's like, I don't think that's actually the case. So were you kind of intentionally examining how like we can't change the past, but we do have agency to change the future if our behavior changes? See, that's a really interesting rabbit hole question. And I feel like we can talk about that for the rest of the day. But I think like my intention was I, you know, I wanted to throw out some models just to create a basis for people.

and, you know, free will versus determination is always like a really interesting concept. But honestly, like, the thing that I was going for more than anything was just like that this stuff is completely unknowable. And that's why at the end you've got Mina basically saying like, you know, using the Soros painting as an example, but also like this being like, you know, but you're just seeing a little bit. Like it's way more complicated than this. You can't even process the entirety of it. And it's like, I'm kind of fascinating. about that idea of like the challenge of our our limitations when it comes to our perception of it. Because like at the end of the day, like whatever theories there are are never going to be 100%

correct because there's things. Like even if we kind of got it right, we probably can't get it fully right because we just can't. It just feels so beyond the grasp of what we can process and understand. So I think what I was kind of trying to get for was that like the answer kind of doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter what's right or what's wrong. It just really matters, like, what choice you make. Yeah, and it really is, there's some part of, like, learning how to accept just what is instead of needing to have all of the answers. And kind of from that, her thoughts about the trillionaires pretty often are about how, like, power can so quickly corrupt people who are just constantly looking for more and more power.

and that it's just like what it does to a person in the way that it corrupts them. So were they there also kind of as the contrast to being able to accept what is and not be trying to like constantly exert your own agenda and make things conform to what you want? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, a rich person is always going to be a great villain. You know, no one gets rich and powerful without stepping people along the way. And I just, I like playing with this idea of like, you know, you've got, you've got a couple of these guys who like, their reasons for wanting to take over time travel are not necessarily bad. Like you've got this like the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia who wants to like reverse this like really terrible tragedy on his country.

And it's like, how do you argue with that? You know, and you've got the guy who runs the social media company who like, you know, I mean, he's surely got some nefarious ideas, but also things like, hey, maybe this is a way to fix climate change. like we can go back and change things. And like, you know, it's these ideas of like, but, but at the same time, they've got all these people around them telling them like, this is a bad idea you shouldn't do it. And they're like, but I don't understand the word no. You know, and I think that's a very specific type among powerful men in particular who like, you can't like, the word no isn't in their vocabulary.

It doesn't exist to them, at least in regards to like receiving it. Like they can't understand someone telling them no because. to their mind because they're rich and powerful, they're always successful and they're always right and they're infallible. And so, you know, it was kind of fun to, like, have these guys as the villains, but also kind of like trying to, like, humanize them and not make them, like, completely over the top. Yeah.

It was a weird balancing act, but it was a lot of fun. And with her, as you called her, acerbic wit, it was pretty funny having someone like that thinking about them too. Yeah. She had some pretty funny thoughts about them. So Cameo has this beautiful metaphor for loss that they explained to January. And they say loss is an injury. Like any injury, it triggers a pain response.

And that pain response can be overwhelming. But injuries are supposed to activate a healing response too. That's why loss hurts less over time. And one day it's just a scar. The evidence of it never goes away, but the pain does, unless it gets infected and then it doesn't heal. And the way that they described the infected way, basically, that January is dealing with Mina's death was just poetic and perfect for her character especially. But do you think January was almost kind of okay with keeping the wound infected because that at least meant it was still there? And like if the pain went away, would she still remember her?

Oh, yeah. No, she was like all in on that. Like she thought it was the only thing she had left. She was kind of like torturing herself. And, you know, it's, I also was reading into like grief while I was writing this. And I found this thing called complicated grief. Like that's, I mentioned it in the book and that's a real thing. And it's like you literally believe that the person's just going to walk back into the room.

And so it was like, oh, wow, this is kind of perfect because January is. in a position where me and it keeps walking back into the room. And yeah, like, it's, and I read that about how, like, you know, grief is a pain, like, triggers a pain response, but also needs to trigger a healing response. And when I was thinking about it in those terms, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, like, that makes a lot of sense. And so it was kind of, you know, God, I love Cameo. Camio was such a fun character to write. And having them sort of, like, I loved having them kind of, like, come in and provide that like, you know, little bit of, you know, you've got these people who are kind of pushing January to try to be better and to try to like be more, because they're all basically like a family.

They're a found family. And like, as much as January doesn't want to admit it, she's very much the matriarch of it, but she just doesn't want to accept that responsibility because she's afraid of what it's going to take away from her own life. And, you know, the book is basically about trying to like beat that into her and get her to recognize the importance of this. Yeah. And finally at the end or near the end, she is starting to feel something other than anger and shan, or than anger and numbness. And the first thing that she actually notices she's feeling is shame. And so I kind of thought like, okay, she's a fun character.

She's just going to be a stereotypically grumpy detective, this whole book. But she does eventually have the emotional growth to get to a point where she does feel shame, actually. So how did you know that the breakthrough feeling for January would actually like need to be shame for her to be able to access her other feelings? I think it's, it's the one that's like, because it's almost embarrassing, you know, like this feeling of all these people really love me and are sticking their neck out for me and I just keep on spitting in their faces. And like, you know, because she has a capacity to care and to love and to, you know, do good things. But it just comes down to this place of like, all of a sudden she realizes like everything she's been given and how much she hasn't

given back or the things she's given back that have been like hurtful. And yeah, like I think shame is a, is a place you would hope someone would go in that instance because you would want them to recognize like sort of like the wreckage they've created. And that's sort of the entryway to her kind of realizing like, oh, like this is. this is not okay and I need to start like being more mindful yeah it is typically once you can feel that I feel like because Mina says something to her about that earlier in the book where she's like if you can feel bad about what you're doing that means you like know how to choose differently yeah and so it made sense then at the end that like really coming face to face with how she felt bad about it is like

like opened her up to everyone again yeah and that's the thing like she's not a sociopath you know she's just kind of a jerk right So near the end, also, Mina is explaining to January about Nirvana. And she says, the secret of Nirvana is that the path to achieving it is a paradox. Like any goal you think you should be working towards it, but to truly achieve nirvana, you have to let it wash over you. You can't fight it or struggle over it. You get there by surrendering, not by trying.

And at the end, January really is able to surrender to what is actually happening. and it allows her to actually save her stanga or her chosen family that has been a theme throughout the book as well. So when you started writing, did you know that you were setting out to create a character whose arc would kind of all be based around that paradox of Nirvana? Oh, yeah, yeah. And again, like, that's something that's always kind of stuck out to me in, you know, some of the readings I've done about Buddhism is that, you know, the path to Nirvana is, you know, the path to Nirvana. It's about like surrendering and not trying. And that's actually a concept that's like very common across a lot of Eastern thought is, you know, just sort of like allowing instead of trying. And, you know, and like an example I really like too is like jumping rope.

It's like, you know, when you're jumping rope, if you're thinking about it, you know, if you're trying too hard, you keep on tripping over the rope. But if you just kind of like allow your body to just remember what it's doing and just take over and just kind of like be with the feel. like you'll fall into this flow state. And yeah, it's like this, I love this idea of, you know, it's this thing that you try for that you can't really be trying for. You just have to allow it into your, into yourself. And it is kind of like a weird paradox, you know. It really is.

It would, I know I mentioned I've done therapy and I think that's part of what was really good about rereading it too, was remembering being. super closed off but the other thing I used to want to do all the time was think that I could control everything and that I could just try to get better and like I would eventually like reach perfection basically and there was actually a podcast I was listening to a couple months ago where the host was saying she was like I decided for 2022 that my new year's resolution is um not self-improvement it's self-acceptance and she was like I need to quit like trying and like reaching and things I'm going to like reach this perfect version and then that's going to be the good version of me.

And I was like, wow, I had to like journal about that one and think about that one. But it's it that paradox, same similar paradox there. It's literally the hardest thing for me still because you like want to be striving for things in general. But you do struggle less when you're able to just like accept things as they are. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's so hard because I think in a general sense we're so. trained and so expecting of wanting answers of there being like an answer or solution or like something at the end of the road that we're working toward when I think in reality it's just you just

got to do the best you can you know and everything else will kind of like fall into place if you do and sometimes sometimes accepting that is hard yeah it really is um January also realizes near the end that the girl she's been seeing everywhere is actually her younger self and she thinks she's like how did i not recognize my own self and i thought that was so brilliant because that was what she was doing most of the story too was if if you're if you kind of go into the parent child model of yourself like your child self is the one having the feelings and she was like not trying to feel those feelings so how did you come up with that awesome idea to like display her literally not recognizing her child itself.

So that was interesting because I wrote the whole book. I sent it to some friends and then I did another edit and then I sent it to my agent and then I sent it to my editor. And my editor is brilliant, you know, brilliant, brilliant story technician. He did like The Martian, he did Ready Player 1. Like, the guy knows what he's doing. And he sent me back my edit letter, which was huge. And, you know, and we were talking about like the emotional arc and,

and, you know, and what, like, the next step was going to be in sort of, like, addressing some of the issues that he brought up. And I had had this idea in the back of my head of, like, this creepy kid wandering around the hotel, because I just wanted to, it started with, I just wanted to, like, up the creep factor a little bit. And then kind of, it sort of morphed into this idea of, like, oh, like, maybe it's January seeing a previous version of herself and this version of her is kind of, like, stalking her around the hotel.

And so I mentioned it offhand to my editor. thinking that he would say no, because it was a fairly big change to make pretty late in the game. And he was like, okay, I don't hate it. I don't think it's going to work. But, you know, give it a shot. Just see what happens. And it ended up working out so, like, I was so happy with how, and it made that emotional note at the end where she's finally able to, like, forgive herself. I was like, I was sobbing when I wrote that scene.

I was joked up. I was like, that's so powerful. And the only thing that we didn't keep, you know, because initially I had the girl wearing like a creepy bunny mask because I just thought that would be like cool and a cool visual. Because also at this point, like it's being developed for TV and I just thought that would be like a really awesome visual. And then it was like, and he was like, okay, all of this works except the mask. The mask just doesn't work because there's no reason for it. It's just, I'm like, okay, okay, that's a fair point. And so I kind of then just sat and thought with that.

it for a bit. I was like, no, like, someone who's in this much denial and who is like this preoccupied with everything in front of them who can't sort of self-reflect. I think there's a fair argument to be made that they would sort of like take traumatic memories and bury them down in order to not deal with them to the point where they become unrecognizable. So, um, so yeah, it was funny because it was such a late addition. But I knew that there was like, there was just something missing. There was just some like emotional note that was missing. And then adding that in kind of like brought the whole thing full circle for me. It really did.

I really can't say enough good things about the ending. I mentioned that before we were in the spoilers. But it is hard to nail, and that was part of it for me that I was like, okay, so that was really great too. The other thing that was so cool was Gene-Rae being able to save her found family the way that she did. And then there was this beautiful conclusion that she and Mina are actually kind of still there together. And they're kind of watching over. Basically, they still get to be fixtures of the hotel and interact with this family that they both found at the hotel. So would you say that they are both Bodhisattvas now from what Mina brought up earlier in the book?

See, that's another really good question that we can spend all day talking about. And like, I don't. Right. I love the concept. It's a beautifully romantic concept that, like, people put off their own enlightenment in order to help. other people achieve it. And, you know, I don't know, I don't even know if it's a real thing, you know, but I just love the idea of like getting these two people to a place where they could be together, where it's sort of like this liminal space like outside of time and can just sort

of like be. And, you know, I mean, I had some thoughts on it one way and then just recently, you know, I don't know if I'm ever going to write it, but I did get a sequel idea. And that's partially because, you know, like in talking to the TV people, they were interested in, like, if I had an idea for a second season or if this would be more of like a one-off limited series thing. And initially for a while, I was like, no, I got nothing. It's like, it's like the Doctor Who problem. It's like every season ends with like, oh, no, the time stream is going to be destroyed and the universe is going to end. And it's like, it's hard to do that over and over again without it feeling like, you know, kind of like, okay, we get it.

And then I kind of, and then I got this. idea for how to kind of like take the concept of the book and just blow it out into something like almost completely different but still within the same realm and um so yeah like it's it's forcing me to kind of like rethink where those characters are in their journey but i like that you know and i don't know if i'm ever going to write it but you know we'll see that is so exciting because i was thinking last night about it being turned into either a film or a tv show and i was like it really needs to be a TV show so it can have the time to explore all of this stuff. So I'm so excited that it's going to be. I mean, well, it's sort of like it's not a done deal yet. Essentially, it was optioned.

There's, I just saw the pilot script recently, the final version of it. They did such a brilliant job, the writer who they hired. Oh, that's awesome. I mean, really just knocked it out of the park. He's such a smart guy. And he added all this world building stuff that like I'm, it's so good I'm jealous of. I wish I had thought of it. And now it's just like next steps. Oh yeah. No, they did a good job. And now we just kind of see what the next steps are. And then, you know, I don't know. It's like this stuff is so weird because like everything is like gung-ho and exciting until like, you know, one day it's not. So right now it looks like it's pretty good. Yeah. That's awesome. So where can people follow you so they can stay up to date on that so that we all

can know when it does come out, if it does come out, where it comes out, and then just any more of your books, just kind of plug wherever they can follow you. Yeah, sure. I'm on the web at rob wheart. com, on Instagram at Rob W. Heart 1 on Twitter at just Rob W. Hart. Paradox Hotel is my latest book, but you can also find my last book, The Warehouse, which is about, you know, what would happen of Amazon kind of took over the entire economy and built like company towns. And that was a fun one too. And yeah. So I will have all of those links in the show notes so everyone can go there if they want to go find that.

And thanks for talking with me today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.