Bookwild - Sagit Schwartz's The Underdog: A Reality Singing Competition, An Obsessed Fan, and An Assistant Stuck in the Middle

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

This week, Steph and I chat with Sagit Schwartz about her new thriller The Underdog! We dive into her inspiration for the story, what she loved about writing crazed fan Norma, and how Sagit and I successfully recorded an audiobook thousands of miles apart from each other!The Underdog SynopsisWhen Liz, an aspiring director stuck working as a chaperone for a reality TV music show, picks up a new contestant from a psychiatric hospital, dubbed “The Singing Patient” by fans online, things take an unexpected turn. The contestant disappears at the airport, and Liz finds herself under police suspicion, accused of helping the woman flee in exchange for money.Across the country, Norma, an obsessive viewer of The Underdog, is captivated by one contestant's story. Feeling an intense connection, she travels to Los Angeles to watch the show filmed live and meet her.As the mystery deepens and the investigation into the missing contestant intensifies, the shocking murder of The Singing Patient’s husband leads Liz and Norma into a deadly game of cat-and-mouse. With each twist and turn, Liz discovers that Norma is not your average fan—but someone far more dangerous. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This is a super special episode. I'm with Saeat Schwartz and Steph Lauer, and we are talking about Seguet's book, The Underdog. And if you're watching, you can see it. She's holding her paperback copy up. And the other cool part about it, most of you probably know at this point, if you're a podcast listener, that I co-narrated with Segeet and produced it. it was my first time doing all of that and her first time doing all of that except writing. So this will be a fun one. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess before we totally dive into the audiobook part, I do always kind of like want to know where you got the inspiration for the story. Well,

I immediately start with that. Well, that's okay. I always start with so. So in December of 2024, I released a novella that kind of led into this book. The novella is called Broken Threads, and it's a prequel of sorts for the underdog. It's about an older writer who loses her technical writing job to AI and is completely broke. she has one month's rent saved, doesn't know what she's going to do to pay bills or otherwise because she's been technical writing for 28 years. And she has a historical fiction book in a drawer that she has been unable to get published for years due to her age, appearance, whatever her belief is in terms of why she hasn't been able to launch it. And she lives in an

apartment building where there's an influencer who has gone through a breakup and is kind of also looking for her next opportunity. And she asks her if she will help promote the book and things don't go according to plan. So they take a deadly turn because it's a thriller. And the underdog kind of got weaved in there in terms of this writer's next project. It's her next book. So it's a prequel of sorts. I wrote it really to be pure, escape is fun, and just to give people a break from daily life

and all the struggles and heartache that is part of existence. But upon, further reflection and thinking about it more as I was, you know, preparing for this podcast, I do think thematically it, there is a meditation on dreams because you have two characters and one cannot let go of her dream. She is in pursuit of it despite her ex-husband being cruel about it and it leading to her divorce and a lot of hard knocks in Hollywood, she still wants to become a director. And she carries that deep inside of her soul. She doesn't let go of it for better or for worse. And then you have another character, an older woman in her 60s, who did have a dream,

a very different one for her profession, but she never pursued it. Generationally, it really wasn't what women did at the time. And then the years passed and she stuffed it down. And one could already madness ensues. Yes. She was never able to pursue it. And it's just stirring and festering. And then, you know, she can't, it, it comes out in other ways like madness, which really is a nod to Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard. Because in her case, it wasn't that she had a dream that she stuffed down and ever pursued. She was a silent film actress. And then talking pictures came along. She was cast aside like a nobody. And she dreams of the return to the screen and goes mad in her own way because of the fact that her dream. and it was just snatched from her from the outside.

So I do think that thematically there is this meditation on dreams. But I would say first and foremost, I just wrote it for readers to have a really fun time. Reading it or listening. Yeah. When you were talking, he was making me think about how when we were first talking about this project you mentioned that you um wanting to get into acting and so this was like a cool moment for you to get to be a voice actor so it was just dawning on me that like your dream is kind of interwoven in there too in all of my bookish dreams to keep doing bookish things well i i moved to

Los Angeles in 2001 and really did have the dream of becoming an actor. And life took me in other ways. And I became, I had many, not many, but I had a few careers before the writing career, from teacher to licensed psychotherapists and practicing to writing. But storytelling never went away. That dream never went away. And how cool to be full circle and get to narrate. narrate this book. I mean, it's funny because I'm still connected with a lot of that acting crew that, you know, I was with back in the day and everyone's done different things, teachers, acting teachers, coaches, all different things. And they're so excited because they're like, oh, my God, SIGID, I can't wait to listen to you narrate this because it's been so many decades since I've acted in any

capacity. I had so much fun returning to that. Very different kind of storytelling than writing, which is quieter and more inward. But this was, it was, I really, also, Norma is a great character to play. She's fun. Yes. You have one chapter where you give it, you're all. I have too, actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Kate was like, I think you should submit this to some award, audio award this chapter to Audies. Is that what it's called?

Is there something? Something like that. Yeah, that might be more of the car brand, but I can't remember. There's something. Audible has some kind of awards. So, yeah. Also, I love that we've got, is she Lily? Why can't I think of your cat's name?

Okay, I was right. I love the Lily's just in the corner. Anyone who's watching, she's just like hanging with the girls in the corner of the screen. She's like, tell me about this. Like, happy are, the canines are out of the picture. Yeah. Yeah. My cany also, I, it was interesting for me when I was listening to you, perform Liz.

You know, there were lines about her pursuing her dreams and they felt so resonant. They felt like they were coming from someplace deep inside of you. Yeah. So that was really, and you can't, you know, I mean, when it comes from something that visceral and that deep, you can't fake that. Yeah. So I heard that, those lines, you know, coming from you. It was fun because I was recording all of it, all my recording sessions because of my dog who's warming up a bark over here right now. I was like I can't like podcast you know if he interrupts a little bit that's fine but like needing to like get through chapters I was like I'm just not able to do it here so I was also recording it in like a private like the rooms that you can rent in a library so I was like surrounded by books and I was just like this is just the best I have an excuse to go be in the library and yeah about all my book dreams so yes it was so fitting on so many levels.

It really was. And as an outsider listening to it, it was just so cool to like hear voices that you've heard before. And also that's what I wanted to ask you about. Oh, yeah. It was cool. I do typically listen on a little faster speed. So like that was kind of fun to just like hear Kate go in like 1.5. But I thought I was telling Kate before you got on, Sagit, that I love when authors read their novels. Like so often not. fiction authors will read or a memoir something, but like I love hearing the way like you want it to be told. So I think that's so special when authors read their fiction, you know. And so I think that it like the way that you were so in it, you're like, this is exactly how I wrote it. It's exactly how I wanted it to be read, how I wanted people to hear it. Like I think that's such a special experience for you, I'm sure. Yeah, it really was meaningful. And she's just so juicy. You gave yourself good material to work with. Yeah. Just to be that level of crazy and for it to be legal. Yes. It's really great.

What a release. Oh, man. Oh, my goodness. Surprised you surprise you about narrating it? What? Was there anything that surprised you about narrating it? Not the narrating it, but actually I've had some interesting experiences, marketing, the narrating part of it. In fact, this week alone, I posted something on TikTok about how my daughter abandoned me, you know, going no contact. And boy, I got all these responses. Our kids don't owe us anything. I hope you know that. Like, like, thinking that this was, it's like, no, this is my book.

I'm pitching my book. In a fiction book, you know, so, because it's a whole thing on TikTok. This particular issue is, it is, you know, it is very widespread on there. Yeah. So I think that the marketing probably more surprising than the actual narrating. I thought that I would have fun with it. And I did. It's also, it's hard work.

Yeah. It's like mentally different than what you expect. Yeah. And physical, like with as I ran into with my throat. And also the repetitive, like, you know, you get things wrong and repeating. And so the. And you don't want your frustration to come through. What?

And you don't want your frustration to come through that you're. it up you have to like just like tamp it down i think so i would say the maybe the rigor of it surprising yeah the rigor of you know doing an audio book yeah i kind of i when i like first sat down to just do my first recording it was like i just sat down and i was just like staring at the mic and i was like how do i start like there's just that feeling since it's such a new thing that i'd done before. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. And then I was like, okay, well, you're just going to have to start and do it. And actually, what was kind of surprising for me was that then like once I started, I was like, oh, some part of me knows how to generally do this.

Well, I have to say, Kate, I've gotten a lot of feedback about you and how talented you are and how much people love your voice. So it truly, I mean, I was always a fan, which is why I asked you to co-narrate with me. But, you know, outside people who don't know you at all are messaging me and helping me as much. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I didn't have a nice voice. I thought I had like kind of like, eh, and manly voice. So this was like also a fun experience to be like, oh, I guess I don't. I thought like it sounded like so crisp and really clean and accessible and accessible and natural you know all of those things yeah with kate's performance one thing i will say with i found a parallel though with writing and narrating you know there's some

days when you write where nothing comes out right like it just for the life of you every sentence every it's so it's like pulling teeth and it's just not happening and I had narrating days like that as well where I was just like gosh I can't do one good take I can't do one good sentence so that was interesting because I was like oh there's a parallel between and probably in every creative process and field there's days where people just it's just not you know connecting and then you leave it alone and you come back another day and it's all seamless and it's all seamless and happening fluidly. Yeah, since we're all ladies here. Not that we couldn't talk about it if they were men. I learned that when I'm in my ludial phase, editing myself is like so much more difficult.

I like hate on myself. I'm like, why did I say that? And then like a few days later, I'm like, this was perfectly fine. So it is the process of editing yourself is, thankfully I've had like four or five years of getting used to that. So I'm a little more used to it. But I was even having days sometimes where I was like, I don't want to edit myself right now. So it was. It was just a unique, all of it was unique. And to what you're saying about how some days it was different, I had one of those happen where like it was the day that I was trying to, I was like, okay, I think I can fit these two hours in because that's like the limit at the library. but I had to leave like I had a hard stop because I think I had to pick Tyler up from the airport

and I got home that day and I listened to it and the fact that I had felt rushed all day translated into it I had to redo all those chapters because I was like I was like trying to get everything done so that I could even go record and then I was like and now I need to get out of here and go pick Tyler up and I was like so like this the set what do they say that's what they normally say about mushrooms like setting and something like has a big impact on what your experience is going to be your mindset really does matter it's going to be really hard to narrate because as we've talked about uh 1x speed needs to be relatively it's slower than your talking voice so you don't want to go into it feeling rushed in your brain because you just won't catch it at least i couldn't

maybe some people, especially if they've done it for years, they can. But I was like, oh, boy, I was motor-mouthing these. But you just have to learn all those things. Yeah. That was like, when you called me about it and you were like, I think I want you to do it. No, I knew I wanted you to. You did. You did. I said, I know, I want to give you time to think about it. Yeah. I didn't something that. I said, You don't have to answer me on this spot. Take a night. Yeah. And let me know.

Yeah. Mainly I was just like telling you. I was like, I've just literally never done it. So I don't know. And then I mean, we had a, I can't think of anything big that was like, we didn't really run into like a super unexpected, it's like speed bump or anything. Like I don't think we hit anything that was like, oh, this is so much harder than I thought it would be. Like it's like you're saying, it's kind of just the endurance of.

it and like getting yourself to go sit down and read and if you mess up sounds like you didn't mess up it's just all of those things but we didn't really run into like oh no are we going to have it on time like we were running into any of that thankfully no no well that's I was surprised I'm excited to you as a producer I mean it I think it there are multiple times because sometimes I would be editing and you would be like listening or we'd be we'd be good we'd be doing different things but related to it. And I was like, this is, I get on my soapbox about how the internet is what you make it. And I'm like, this is, this is that reason to me of like, it's so cool that the internet can make these things possible. Where like, he was recording in California and

I was recording in Indiana. And I think we did it in like 32 days. Like it was pretty quick. It's so true. Yeah. Meeting people through the book world that live in different. places in the country and the world. I mean, that is an amazing part of the... Yeah. Yeah, it's so cool that it can happen that way now. Obviously, I love it. What are you about the story part of the book? Like, what was your evolution from, like, I know since she was gone, right? Yes. I want to say you for some reason, but since she was gone. Like, I know that was a, from listening to this podcast. asked like a more personal story. And then how did,

what was your evolution to like broken thread and then Thunderdog? Like how did you go from something more personal? I know you said like there's so much going on. Let's just have some fun. But like novella and then this like what was the series of events? Well, I wanted, I mean, since she's been gone, took a pound of flesh to write in terms of emotionally. all books are difficult to write. That goes without saying, but it was especially hard because thematically there were, it was so personal and there were themes that were quite difficult to

get into. So I needed a break from that. So that was going on. I knew I needed something lighter. And then with broken threads, it was really, I think, on the heels of, I can't recall if it It was around the time that I found out since she's been gone had actually been fed into one of the AI training model machines and, you know, stolen, basically, for that purpose. And what was going on with writers and AI and artists in general? And just the, in my mind, the big questions really around that. Like, where does this leave humanity at large? Artists, if there's an attempt to replace artists who are trying to mirror human experience, then what are we going to be left with?

So that was kind of in my head in terms of broken threads and Claire losing her job to AI as a technical writer. and then the influencer culture because she hires a young pretty influencer to promote her book who then takes it on as her own because she's like it'll go much more viral if, you know, a 24-year-old wrote a historical fiction novel and it does. It has, you know, it. And so I think that's where my. headspace was. It was all about AI, artists, writers, publishing, and then that organically led to the underdog. And I thought it would be so much fun to just have a modern twist on Sunset Boulevard,

even though I know it's kind of an ancient now at this point, an ancient cultural reference, and probably most people that read The Undertog have not seen the film, or, I mean, maybe they know a little bit about it as, you know, Dormand Desmond is a caricature. So I thought it would be so fun because she's such an interesting character.

And she also was replaced. She was a silent film after. who was replaced by talking pictures. Okay, so what is happening now to artists? Are we going to be replaced by chatbots? Like, what, where is all this going? Yeah, like that new AI actress just was announced or whatever. Yes.

Like a studio. They're called synthetic. Synthetic. Ah. Okay. They're not actors. Actors are human beings. I'm a member of the Screen Actors Guild.

and I actually heard the president being interviewed about this. The SAG president. Yeah. About this issue. Yeah. I listened to a podcast interview like two weeks ago. Yeah. This synthetic performer.

That's a good. I like that delineation, basically. Are they trying to regulate it or can they not? It's very, you know, each of these platforms. is doing its own thing. Okay. And a lot of the platforms are making the bet that they can just do things and use copyrighted stuff and deal with the fallout at a later, legal fallout at a later date

when, that they'd rather be in on the gold rush. Yeah. And because the laws aren't there yet. Yeah, they don't exist. And they're not allowed to for 10 years now. Is that what it is? Well, these cases are making their, way through the courts.

Okay. You know, the wheels of justice are always slow. And so I don't, you know, the laws haven't caught up. So a lot of these entities are just, they're thinking, okay, well, we'll be in on the gold rush and then we'll be so rich that we can just pay off all the legal issues at a later date. But again, it depends on the platform and what they're doing. It kind of, the latest one that came out turned everything upside down in terms of copyright,

opt in versus opt out. Because historically, you had to opt in. The default was opt out. Now they're putting the onus on opting out. Like everyone's in until you opt out. And so that's a huge shift. Yeah. And so I just read that last week, like,

you know, a bunch of the talent agencies opted all of their clients out, all the actors out of SORA, whatever, the latest. SORA too, yeah. Yeah. So it's just, it's a long way of answering your question, but it's technology, in terms of how I came up with broken threats, technology, my own being book, my own book, first book being stolen to train an AI model and then thinking about a technical writer losing their job to AI. What was really interesting is I was marketing it on threads and a couple of technical writers messaged me. Wow. And said, I just lost my job to

AI. And your book came up in my algorithm and I'm buying it. So this is real. It's not like a theoretical thing. It's actually really all this stuff is happening. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. And then the, with the underdog, you have the reality TV show. Oh, yes. Aspect. Do you want to talk about I really, gosh, I really love singing competition shows. Like, that's just the thing that I happen to love. I have a horrible voice. I wish that I could think. Something I wish I could.

If like someone said to you, what is the one talent you wish you had had in your life that you don't have? Singing would be it for me. Yeah. And so I just admire people so. much, you know, who go on these shows, whether it's AGT or The Voice or American Idol, and they're just singing their heart out for stardom, trying to chase their dreams. And so that definitely is a personal love of mine. And I don't think I'm the only one, because on social media, all these

shows have accounts and people respond to the performances. Oh, yeah. So they are cheering on their favorites and hoping, you know, for people to get record deals. And I mean, that's now the public square where people are discovered is online. Mm-hmm. Not like how it was 30 years ago or even 20. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's just something that I love. I'm not, there's other reality TV shows that I've dabbled in through the year. But consistently the ones that I'm always, I always love are the singing competitions. Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

They're a little more upbeat. Yeah. Like rabbit holes online of like, oh, what happened to that one girl with a little ukulele, Grace Vanderwall? Oh, yes. She was so great. And then I'm like, whatever happened to her? Because occasionally it will pop back up in your algorithm, right?

like some of really cool performances that are really like special and make you cry and stuff. And so like they are really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I also think it's a fun genre in the, you know, with thrillers like reality television. It's not a common one, but it's a fun one.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like the stakes are so high. Like emotions are so high like the nervousness and maybe like the, confidence and like has a lot of things that could go wrong. Yeah. And competition in general doesn't always bring out people's best sides. And I also like, you know, the, the show in the book is called the underdog.

And it's really a group of misfits in terms of contestants who have been rejected and other, you know, in public life or whatever reason. And that's always fun. I mean, like I love slow horses, right? Because it's a bunch of MI5 misfit agents who have been cast aside because they've screwed up in colossal ways. And they can't be part of the regular organization. So they, you know, house them in the middle of nowhere. And they constantly messing up and kind of get by barely.

And so here on the underdog, you have contestants who also have. questionable backgrounds. Yes. So, you know, this idea of a group of misfits who all have great voices who are buying in this competition. Yeah. The other thing I was remembering, you do like make a lot of different pop culture references. Like you reference, I guess I won't say, is that in this?

No, it's not in the synopsis. But you do reference a really, really popular thriller. the book and the author. You have some movie references. I feel like you have some funny joke about is it an A24 film? Is that what it was? Or am I mixing my books together? I might be mixing my books together. But does that part come naturally just because like you're interested in pop culture or do you like think about inserting those? I don't think about it. No, that would come out magically. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. It's just I love when authors do that. I know. I know. some people are divided on that and I'm like give me the pop culture references.

Why not? Yeah. Some people are like, but it makes the book less timeless. And I'm like, if anything, it's just reflecting the time period of when it's written. Like, no, it's true. I mean, there are those books that stand the test of time that don't have any references. But then to your point, okay, well, this is a slice of this era of this time. Like Shakespeare is using slang of his time period.

It's just we don't think of it that way anymore. Right, right. Just pulled Shakespeare into this apparently. I did. When it came to Norma since she was older, I did at times think about her language and how she spoke because she wasn't like to sound like a 30-year-old. So her language is,

at least my attempt at skewing a bit older. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you throw in a couple of phrases where you can tell she's like kind of using them wrong or awkwardly, basically. And it's so cute. It's the cutest thing she does. Let's put it that way. Yeah.

Yeah. Everything else is a little wild. Yeah. On that note, I felt like I wanted to like, did you have a lot of fun? just like being bonkers because I feel like some of it is just like wild and I think that was like what you were going for is like a lot of thriller readers just like want to read some wild stuff and I think you accomplished that and like it had to have been fun and then also like Kate 70 you mentioned like like I noticed I was like it kind of seems like a love letter to like some

you know I don't want to say tropes but like there are some things that I'm like, little pieces of like my favorite thrillers, I feel like came together in this book. And I don't know if that was intentional, but I liked that about it. I'm like, I think there was, it seemed like a fun time to write. Yeah. I, you know, I've gotten multiple texts like, in messages from readers. Readers I haven't bet. Oh my God, Norma is crazy. Oh, my God, Norma, you know. And one reader actually, she's like, I have specifically this year gotten into unhinged characters, and this is one of the best that I've read this year. So I do think there's a lane.

I think there are people that are just looking for that because it's so removed from reality that it is a form of escapism. Yeah, totally. You know, because it's not, it's like, okay, you know that you're taking. taking leaps of faith here. Yes. It's grounded enough, but there's stuff that's so that you're just like, okay, I'm going on this roller coaster and that's what I want. Yeah.

But I didn't think about other thrillers when I was writing it. I just wrote it. In fact, I've seen in a couple reviews, people liking it to a thriller that, you I still have not read Lottie. Oh. Is that her name? The one in, it was released this year. Oh, too old for this?

Yes. Yeah, I comped it to that. I have not read that book. Yeah. You know, but I, you know, so I. The characters are the same vibe. The plot's very different. So you're good.

Well, again, you know, things just, there's overlaps. Oh, totally. in the genre. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But I think it took like some of the, I mean, like unintentionally, I think like some of the best stuff from like, you know, people love a unhinged mother daughter or like mother or, you know, familial relationships.

People love in, you know, like the, I don't want to say like a sanitarium or something, but like people love a setting of like. mental instability, you know, like I think it takes like a lot of people's like favorite things and put them together. Yeah. I was trying not to spoil anything, but I was like, no, I did underdogs in that like there's a, you know. Yeah. It was, it was really a fun one to write and just also have a character who's just so, you know, justifying. everything that they do internally. And you come across people like this in life.

You really do. This might take it in a heightened way, but just that was really fun. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that at some point she's having to take care of a baby. And she basically is like, now nap and don't cry and don't wake up. That's like the gist of it. I was just cracking up because she really probably believed that the baby would listen and just do it. A baby.

That's been a high compliment when reviewers say that they laughed while reading. Yes. That is a high compliment. You had some funny lines in there, too, of her feeling so, so persecuted. Yes. Yes, poor Norma. Yeah, poor Norma. You could have called the book that too.

Yeah. You also, so another thing that people love, since we're talking about kind of all the things that are in there, is mixed media. And you have, yeah, you have a decent amount of that. And so I was wondering was that from the get-go where you kind of like, well, this is an important part of like reality TV. like that's why I want to include it or did you kind of get to a point and you were like, I think having this type of mixed media will help like give perspective to the story.

What were you kind of thinking? Well, in terms of Reddit, there's a bunch of Reddit entries. And at first it was a great way to respond to the excitement of the show and the performances. And then as it went on, I realized, oh, this could also be a good avenue to tell. another part of the story as well. That organically I developed as I was writing. Yeah. I personally, I'm a huge fan of Reddit.

I think it's like a gigantic town square. I learned so much for this. I get a lot of information. Yeah. It's actually really useful. So I, and then it also, I think it added another dimension to the story. and you know breaks up chapters because you're just like oh you've got to keep things fresh and moving especially in the thriller genre right i mean i'll never forget and since she's been

gone the opening scene literally the opening scene is a woman who believed her mother her her late father told her mother died in a car accident when she was 15 years old she's now 40 she's a psychologist and a so-called new patient arrives to her office and tells her your mother's still alive actually and she's in danger and she doesn't believe her and the woman gives her a neck a bracelet that her mother wore and she runs out and that happens in the first two pages of the book i had readers writing reviews saying this was way too slow of a start way too slow wow and i was like But that was very informative to me.

I'm like, yeah, this is a genre where the expectations keep things going. Yeah. There's no, no, no slowing down with this. You got to keep things going. And I think, I do think that the Reddit kind of,

that helps that, you know? It's like this other, oh, what's going on here? Oh, now we're back there. Oh, keeping things fresh and going. Another, just because we're talking about little like synchronicities and coincidences, when you were talking about Reddit, I also love it. Again, it's another thing where like Reddit is what you may get. Like, it is very, very useful if you're using it for certain things. But the crazy part is so Norma has a daughter who is no contact with her. Is that in the synopsis? That's not a teaser or a spoiler, right? No.

It's in the first chapter. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're right. It's in the first chapter. So the interesting thing, people know I'm no contact with both of my parents. However, it was Reddit forums when I got to college and had like my own internet access finally. It was Reddit for a shout out are raised by narcissists is what made me finally feel like I wasn't going crazy anymore.

Wow. Yeah. And so it's kind of crazy. Both of those themes are in this book now too. Like Reddit was like. like my guiding light when I couldn't pay for therapy. It was kind of awesome. Oh, I mean, people share so much. Yeah. And knowledge from the most mundane things like if you have an obscure old refrigerator that's not working and how to get it going to things that are more profound,

like what you just brought up. So it's like a gigantic town square. And it's fun to do with books, too if they're widely known i know stuff does that too like when it's like especially ones that are like complicated or there's purposeful ambiguity people will just like talk about oh okay i haven't park has a really um like the the book subscription they have a really active subreddit too i did not know yeah it is an author i tend to stay away from i don't blame me i'm I've only used to when there's like an open-ended ending where I just finished Bunny by Mona Ewa. And like the way there's probably like on there's infinite interpretations of that book.

Okay. What's real. What's not. Was it a fever dream? We don't know. Or like an open-ended ending like, uh, what? And so I think that that's where I found it the most useful. I'm like, did I miss something?

So it's more like, like you said, like we're coming together to share information to see if there's answers more so than like I don't really use it for like reviewing it necessarily. More like, oh, what did you all think? Yeah. Right, right. Like the town square. Like people are out chatting about. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a cool element. And then you also do include a lot of TikTok because the character I voice, Liz, is like, part of. of her job is to be paying attention to it. And you really, you nailed the TikTok culture. I'm not going to lie. As someone who used to scroll and scroll and scroll and then audiobooks, it's crazy how much audiobooks cut my TikTok time down, but I used to be on TikTok a lot.

And those were fun, too. They weren't like direct mixed media because it wasn't like a break in the story, but it's like my character's monitoring comment. So there's a little bit of TikTok in there too. Yeah, that was a little bit of a love letter. to TikTok. It's like all social media, it's changed over time and who knows what its future holds.

But there is, especially when it comes to these singing shows, there's a bit of that town square feeling in terms of people responding to an amazing performance and being so lit up by it. And I don't have many friends that are into reality. TV singing shows. So it's nice to go on TikTok and see other people who get fired up about an amazing performance. That's what I used to say about reading because there, like people in my regular life were not reading what I read. So it was that same experience where it was really fun

discovering bookstagram and even like NetGalley kind of also adds to that where then like you do get to talk to more readers. Like, I'm just not running into readers very often. Well, I guess I'm going to more bookish events because all of a sudden, Indiana has them. But yeah, outside of that. I see you going to a lot of them. It's crazy. How many, I never would have thought this many would be in Indiana. I got, I was sitting with Karen and Cindy were their names at Tiffany D. Jackson. I think they were approaching their 70s. They had the same little white bob hair. cut and we were just yapping about books together and I was like so do you like Tiffany D Jackson and they're like no we're just in a book club with some of our friends and like they don't really

switch it up or like find new authors so we just love coming to these events and finding more and I just wanted to hug them I was like you guys are so great but yeah sometimes you can get a little bit of that feeling in like Reddit or TikTok or book screen I love that. Oh that's cute. I just wanted to hug them like multiple times. I got there an hour early because I wanted to like, basically if you don't at some of these events, you're like waiting in the signing line until like 9 p.m., which is my bedtime. So I got there an hour early and I was like, I can just read, obviously.

But we just talked the whole time. They read all genres. We were just talking about all kinds of authors. They were telling me about Frederick Bachman. was on Jimmy Fallon and he hasn't apparently that was his first interview and it was so cute the one next me and Lee Norris she was like look it up on your phone just look it up on YouTube Frederick Bachman Jimmy it is such a cute she was like just look up on your phone and save it and watch it when you get home and she was just like showing me I was like this is just the best so I do love it it's always

fun finding your community yeah I love they were there for the scammers like I love a Y It's like YA kind of thrillery. Like I don't know if it's even technically called. But yeah, they talked about Stephen Key. That's so great they were there for that. Yes. Yeah. It made me really happy.

It was probably like the events are always fun. But this one, like the audience and then the who Tiffany was in conversation with Lee Johnson, they were just really good conversationalists. And the audience was just like, dare I say lit. like the audience was like clapping and they were they're also both banned they both have banned books so it was also oh wow okay so that topic got brought up so there was a lot of people like agreeing with the like let's not ban books essentially so it was cool it was a good experience i really liked that one and i've taken us completely off the rails but it was so fun

book is so good true yes i'm trying to think did i have another i can remember if i had another question about the story i think the mixed media was my main one yeah i was going to ask that and i forgot so i was glad that you was there anything harder about writing this one because i know it was less emotional uh we kind of talks about that but was there anything where you're like oh i this is different or whatever it's just always daunting to write something. So you're like, how am I going to do this? You know, can I do? Every time I go to write anything, I'm like, can I do this? I know it's so silly because you would think that the more you do it and have proof that you can, the doubts would diminish,

but they actually don't for me anyway. Each time it's like, oh my goodness. I actually do this. Yeah. And now I have. have a new project in my mind. I'm like, will I be able to do it? You will. But you'll doubt yourself while you're doing it. Actually, Tiffany D. Jackson was talking about this same thing. I think this was, she said this is her 10th book. And she was talking to one of her friends a couple months ago and was like, I really should go, I really think I need to get into an MFA program. I've never been trained. And she like laughed at her. And she was like, are you kidding me right now? And she's like, well, I still just don't feel like a like writer writer like meanwhile she has 10 books out so the imposter syndrome is just a

hard one to beat it's just like oh my god and then you when i sometimes when i was narrating i'm like i can't believe i actually wrote this like you know like because it's just so like wow okay because enough time had passed i'm like oh wow yeah that actually happened It is. I mean, I even kind of felt that way when we finished it because we just had to, we didn't have to do it quickly, but we wanted to have a buffer around your pub date. And then I also knew I was just going to get swamped going into September basically. But even like, what was it? I think it was last week. It was actually like the day that we ended up getting our approval from Audible, Tyler and I were driving. And I was telling him, I was like, like, I can't believe that I like that that audio book thing just like happened last month. And like now we're back to doing other things. I'm like, it was just like, it's just like kind of flew by. So yeah, I think that that's the, the hard part. Well, coming up with an idea and then let, you know, that almost can be harder than the don't, then, then, okay, well, now I have to write it.

Yeah. But so that that's what was probably, those were the challenges. Yeah. I can't remember. Do you outline or are you kind of a hybrid? No, I knew how the book started and how it ended, but I was going to get there. Okay. And that, that. That's the blank pages. That evolution. Yeah. So I knew. I knew that final scene that was going to happen in I knew that that was going to happen, and then I knew that you'd have these two characters and then their lives would intersect. And that was a fun thing to do. Because I mean, I have a very bad habit. I mean, it's not bad, but it's maybe a little obsessive. I watch so many mystery and thriller and detective series on TV.

and one of them is called Unforgotten. And it's, I've talked to you about it, Kay. Hey, you're serving on this one. I need to. Yeah. And it's about, it's about cold cases. And so it's like a cold case from decades and decades ago.

And you're following four strangers who are living totally different lives, but they're all connected to this cold case that happened decades and decades ago. And so I like. the idea like in this book you have two characters it's like how are their lives going to intersect because when the book starts it's different years different timelines you know there's a show in common a contestant on a show but like how is it all going to connect so that's kind of a a fun trope yeah i like that gear was actually saying he just started the book the business trip Oh, I heard of that.

Yeah, I remember seeing the cover everywhere. And he was telling me that it's a woman goes missing on a business trip, but it's told from like three or four perspectives of the other women or other women that were there. And I was like, that is such a fun structure. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I read that one. There's a lot of, I think there's, there's a full cast narration. Oh, really?

It takes place in, I think the author's from Wisconsin. And so I was like sold on it and it takes place there a little bit. But there's a lot of perspectives of how it all wraps together. Yeah. I need to try it out. Especially that full cast. Oh, well, yeah, for sure. Um, do you have any questions? I think we've managed them all. Unless you want to talk about what you're working on next. I know. I don't know if everyone likes being asked them. So I just kind of leave it. It's very early days. Yeah. But it actually is a cold case.

Oh, that would be fine. Yeah. And oh, this is absolutely coincidental. But we moved to a new city in June. and a few weeks ago, I joined a walking group that meets once a week, walks about an hour by the ocean. We live in a beach town. And there's four of us. And one of the women, her, this is completely coincidental. Her husband, who's about to retire, was a hundred, homicide detective and he worked a lot of cold cases. And I had this idea for my book before. Or I don't know if it'll be a book short story. I know Vella, I don't know yet. But I was like,

oh my goodness, okay, this is meant to be. This is meant to be. I have someone that I can really like talk to who was in the field and who worked these cases for years and years. And she told me he refuses to watch any of the shows. I bet. It probably would ruin the experience. Well, no, he's just like, good for them for wrapping it up in 45 minutes. I'm still knocking on doors three years later. Right. You know, working a cold case.

Yes. You know. That's a lot. That's so cool, though. Yeah. If it's a cold case, it's another elderly character. although I wouldn't say 60 is elderly in terms of the woman and in the underdog but this no this woman is older than that though so little older and cold case and there is some AI stuff as well so again early days I've never I've never written anything that involved a cold case so it's daunting this point. But I like that, you know, that in terms of I watch so much of that kind of content

on television, I don't, trying to think in terms of, you know, detective stuff when it comes to books, I don't read a ton of thrillers that have cold cases. I have, I have, but not a ton. So maybe that's why it's daunting because it's just not so naturally in my wheelhouse. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. I'm excited to see your take on a cold case. Yeah.

Your books will be so different, which is cool. I, you know, I don't, the thing is that Pete, the one thing that you do, okay, so they might all be in the thriller genre, but like readers then start expecting certain things. from you. So maybe if I switch it up enough, they won't expect. But I can't, I can't just keep doing the same thing. If that happens naturally, if I come up with an idea that I'm passionate about, that's in the same wheelhouse as another thing, I'll do it. But I really have to go where the idea leads me. I can't write just to write to, to keep people's expectations happy. I just because it's not, yeah,

like that's not the way you want to approach right. It wouldn't seem authentic, I think, for you or, and it might not be as successful if it's not what you want to be doing. It's too, you know, writing is hard enough, but then to make something to just for the marketplace or to please others. Yeah.

Then it's just like another obstacle. overcome. Yeah. I know there are some authors who are literally like, what kind of book do I need to write? And their editor tells them what's trending. And they're like, okay. And I'm like, to each their own, but it seems, that seems difficult. Yeah. So to be continued on that one. Yes. Thank you both so much for taking time to charity. Thank you. And thank you, Steph, for listening to our debut. Yeah. I felt like so

special. I was like, has anyone else read this yet? Like, listen to it. So I thought that was so cool. Yeah.

It was all cool. And like I said, I love listening. I mean, obviously I met Kate through listening to her. And I love when authors read their books.

It was just like such a cool combo. Yeah. We'll see how, what the readers think, the listeners think. Yeah, I know. I'm excited to hear.