Bookwild - Samantha M. Bailey: Watch Out for Her

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Samantha M. Bailey about her atmospheric new psychological thriller Watch Out for Her.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsWebsiteCheck out the book hereWatch Out for Her SynopsisSarah Goldman, mother to six-year-old Jacob, is relieved to move across the country. She has a lot she wants to leave behind, especially Holly Monroe, the pretty twenty-two-year-old babysitter she and her husband, Daniel, hired to take care of their young son last summer. It started out as a perfect arrangement—Sarah had a childminder her son adored, and Holly found the mother figure she’d always wanted. But Sarah’s never been one to trust very easily, so she kept a close eye on Holly, maybe too close at times. What she saw raised some questions, not only about who Holly really was but what she was hiding. The more Sarah watched, the more she learned—until one day, she saw something she couldn’t unsee, something so shocking that all she could do was flee.Sarah has put it all behind her and is starting over in a different city with her husband and son. They’ve settled into a friendly suburb where the neighbors, a tight clique of good citizens, are always on the lookout for danger. But when Sarah finds hidden cameras in her new home, she has to wonder: Has her past caught up to her, and worse yet, who’s watching her now? Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Welcome back to another episode of Between the Lines. Today I'm here with Samantha M. Bailey, who is the author of Watch Out for her, which we're going to talk a little bit about today. So thanks for being on the podcast, Samantha. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah.

So I wanted to kind of talk about your process first before we kind of get into the book and just get to know a little bit about you. So when did you know that you wanted to be an author? It's a really good question because very, very young. I was 10 years old when I submitted my first short story or my first, you know, manuscript to publishers. And it was my very first rejection. Wow. So I was very young when I learned. Yeah, yeah, I was really, I learned how hard this business actually is.

So yes, 10 and I'm now 49 years old. So basically. forever, yeah. That's amazing. So what is your writing process like? So do you mostly go in knowing how the book's going to turn out or do you kind of figure out as you go or is it different per book? So when I first started out writing full length, not 29. And at that point, I wrote edgy, edgy romcoms. And I would just, you know, fly by the seat of my pants. I was a panster. But when it came to starting to write thrillers, which I started doing about 2000. Maybe I'm trying to remember.

I realized very quickly. Actually, I always wanted to write thrillers, and I was really scared of the process. I knew the process was going to be daunting. I think it's daunting in any genre, but I knew for me especially that thrillers, the plotting was going to be quite intense. and daunting and frightening and out of my comfort zone. And so I became a very detailed clutter. And so for both Women on the Edge, my debut, and watch out for her,

I wrote 15 to 17 page outlines once I had a solid idea. Yeah. And yeah, it was a pretty, it's pretty intense. And those outlines are the character arcs, their narratives, their goals and motivation, all the plot beats and the twists and the clues and putting it all in there scene by scene by scene, which evolves as I write for sure, for sure, the outline, not everything in there makes it into the book as it shouldn't. but it is a pretty wild process before I even begin drafting. I feel like that's what I would have to do for sure if I was writing thrillers.

Like there's just so much to keep track of. So do you approach your characters the same way? So do you kind of outline with them? How do you get to know them? Yes. And I do it in both ways, both in the outline and the drafting. I try to understand them as well. deeply as I can before I begin.

I want to know who they are, what they want, both externally and internally. An excellent book I use for that is a Ticron story genius. It is brilliant at really getting to the psychology behind the characteristics. And then, you know, I also have to look. at how far will these people go to get what they want while also trying to make them very very real and very flawed because I love flawed messy characters then when I'm right I find them my characters they they will often go in directions I hadn't anticipated I try to stop them sometimes

And I want to say, but no, that's not what I intended for you. And they say, well, this is the way it is and this is who we are. So it is, it's both an organic and a planning process. Yeah, that's, that's cool that you kind of combine both approaches. And then I have had a couple different authors talk about story genius. So clearly she was doing something right when she wrote that because, I feel like all of the, all of the thrillers that have like really deep, developed characters, they all mention that book.

Yeah. It's an absolutely phenomenal resource. There are so many others, but it is one of my go-toes for sure. She just, it's, she makes it so simple to, it's not a simple process. But she, you know, helps readers, readers, sorry, authors. in a very step-by-step way. It makes away a lot of that so much fear in writing and publishing in general, yeah, that it can prevent us from really accessing the deepest thoughts and feelings

and everything that we need to access to write the best book we can. And Story Genius really, really helps with that. That's really cool. So how would you describe Watch Out for Her in just a couple of sentences? Watch Out for Her is the story of a war who doesn't realize until she changes her life that she is being watched as well. That sums it up. And then what prompted you to write it? where'd you get the idea?

Long answer for a really concise question. When I, well, I was, you know, I had just, a woman on the edge, my debut had come out. And I wanted to be sure not to disappoint anyone and not to disappoint myself. Writing a second book is scary in any event. And then so maybe I felt it a little bit more so. And I always want to make sure that I learn and grow with every book that I write and I take all the risks. And I, you know, jump in and face all my fears. And so it wasn't a lightning bolt idea the way woman on the edge was.

It was more of a process of thinking. I wanted to write about middle-aged motherhood. I wanted to write about wanting to be seen that as mothers, we can't control who watches our children when we can't watch. And the idea that when people place expectations on us, that we don't want to meet. And we also don't want to disappoint anybody.

it can cause us to hide who we really are, which leads to secrets and to lies and to danger. I began writing it right before the pandemic hit, and I have two kids who at the time were 9 and 12, and they're now 15 and 12. And at the time, my version of middle-aged motherhood, I felt was, and now looking back was definitely quite idyllic because I felt I'd achieved somewhat a balance

between my own identity as a person and my identity as a mother. And then the pandemic hit. And everything went to hell in a handbasket. And my kids were home and they were learning remotely and they were scared in my greatest concern. in my greatest role in life was to make sure that they were as physically and mentally healthy and happy as I could possibly get them. And so I ended up identifying with Sarah Goldman,

one of the main characters far more than I had ever expected. Yeah, that it's cool that because it was apparent to me that there's so much more going on to the story than just the plot of a thriller. So it's kind of cool hearing that like you really were thinking of all of that going into it. I think with psychological thrillers, domestic suspense, there is so much psychology. And what's going on in someone's mind as opposed to what they are presenting to other people, even what they're presenting to themselves, which is the name of your podcast, is between the lines. Yeah, that's what I, that was a big reason I wanted to start it was to talk about kind of all the stuff that's going on underneath the surface of the books even.

So next we're going to dive into the book a little bit. We're not really going to get into spoilers on this one, but I still will give the same kind of warning I normally do is like if you want to wait and read the book, just pause right here and go read it and then you can come back and listen to us talk about it, but we're also not going to get into anything that spoils too much today. So kind of make your own call. So at the beginning of the book, we learn that Holly's family doesn't really feel like a family to her. and kind of aside from the fact that they kind of use her to close business deals, she also wishes she wasn't a Monroe, but just herself, whoever that might be.

And so as the story progresses, she feels loved and truly accepted by Sarah and starts to feel like she shows who she is just as herself, not as a Monroe. So it sounds like from the beginning you were intending to do this, but were you intending to use the story as a way to show how like a safe, loving environment helps us understand ourselves on a more authentic level? Definitely. I don't want to be preachy, you know, in my books. And there's a fine line between what goes on the page and what is in all the drafts, you know,

that you write before. And that requires editing and an exceptional editor and making sure that, There is subtlety there so that each reader can take from the book whatever their experience is with the book. But definitely. Definitely, I wanted to show that it was important to me to show that no matter how much money you might have because Holly's family is very wealthy. It does not mean that you're going to be happy. and even if you yourself or if your family has a lot of money and you are set for life financially it will not take away from any pain or trauma or anything that you might be suffering

and that in the end love and support and allowing to be suffering and that in the end love and support and allowing to, you know, being allowed or being supported in being ourselves is the key probably to happiness or getting as close to happiness as possible. So that was definitely something that was important to me. Yeah, I could not agree with that more. And I love what you just said about how much the reader can still kind of place. experience into it as well because sometimes I'm even like okay so what do my questions say about me as a person like what does it say about the stuff that I'm picking up on in a story but I've also had moments where then being able to read a fictional story has helped me understand myself more so I love that part

and when you were talking about money not solving everything that made me think of Jim Carrie has a quote where he says essentially that he wishes that everyone could get have all of their like financial and whatever dreams come true so that they could understand that it doesn't actually mean anything in the grand scheme of your happiness. So I'd love that you explore that as well because there is there's something to be said for financial security within your family. But there's so much more to be said for emotional security in your family. Yeah. Financial stress is awful. I've experienced it, you know. I do experience it. It's financial stress is, is a terrible stress. But when you, you know, you look at lottery winners. You always think, I'd love to win $10 million. And they have these shows, these shows of people who've won the lottery and how it's actually in the end, in many ways, ruined their lives. And so, you know, inner happiness, inner contentment, really, I personally think is so much more important than all of the external accomplishments or gains or, you know, anything that you might be seeking.

Yeah, I completely agree. Another thing that's kind of touched on, and you kind of mentioned it when you were discussing your inspiration for the book, but Sarah does kind of miss her youth in the days when she felt really confident in herself. And so she kind of starts living vicariously through Holly and Holly's youth a little bit. So how did you approach writing the symbiotic relationship that kind of happens between Holly and Sarah? so Holly kind of finds a safe space and a motherly figure and Sarah kind of finds a portal to her youth. How did you approach writing that relationship? I had to make sure that they were very different characters.

And so I chose the POV of first person present tense for Sarah because I wanted to Sarah struggles to be very direct for the reader and very direct as I wrote it. I wanted to be very active for her agency to be right there on the page as it happens. And, you know, I listen to a lot of music before I begin writing to access those feelings. With Sarah, it wasn't very hard for me, Because I am 49, I am a middle-aged mother, I am a warrior. I am not, I am not Sarah. I do have people in my life are like, oh, you're so Sarah. No, I'm not nearly as paranoid, I guess you could say, and anxious as she is.

But the reason she is so paranoid is she suffered great losses in her life. and she is being lied to. She knows she's being lied to. She knows that people are keeping secret. She just doesn't know who it is, which of course can make you question everything that is happening around you and question yourself. But I listen to a lot of music to access the character's feelings

and to make sure I'm digging really deep. And then with Holly, the POVI chose, was third person present tense. because I wanted a little separation, but it's a close third person. And because Holly is only 22. Holly is at that almost pivotal age where, yes, you are technically an adult. But she lives at home. She is following the path that her family has decided for her. She is not independent.

So she is still unsure of who she is and what she wants. And so I wanted it to be where her thoughts are a little more distant because she herself doesn't quite understand what she wants and who she is. That is a really cool explanation. I had not even thought of how the first person or third person really did work so well for both of them. I hadn't really thought of third person working for Holly so well since she was so young and kind of like not sure of who she was at all. I hadn't even thought of that. So I love that.

I love the question. The, it does have also examined the unequal distribution of like domestic tasks for women. So at one point, Daniel makes breakfast. and he says, I don't know why I never did this for you guys before. And Sarah thinks because I took on that role and you were happy enough to just be served. So in some ways, painting David in this light helps us feel suspicious of him throughout the book. But were you also using that plot point as a way to kind of discuss gender norms in marriage? Again, not, yeah, again, not trying to be preachy or, you know,

jump onto any, any bandwagons, I guess, is what I want to say. But I am a woman. I have very strong ideas of womanhood and motherhood. And I write domestic suspense for a reason because I'm really fascinated and compelled to write about families and the dynamics and female friendships and the complexities and the complexities of women, the complexities of who we are and the, our imperfectness, you know, even now, I think there's an expectation that we are supposed to be likable and easy and accommodating when in reality, I think we are tough, we are strong and we are vulnerable and

that's okay. And we need a break sometimes and that's okay. And I think the pandemic really brought to the forefront, the emotional burden placed on mothers and women in general. Fathers do a lot, a hundred percent fathers are you know necessary and important but there there is something about the definition of mother and i don't know maybe we do it to ourselves or maybe it's it's placed on us i i don't know i don't know where it's coming from exactly or if it's both yeah where we are and do feel responsible for everything Everything. And that gets to be a lot when you are also trying to forge your own identity.

When you maybe have lost and want to regain the person you were or you want to have passions of your own. It is such a complicated issue. and I really think if you ask any mother, you know, who is, all of us who've been through the pandemic, this is something we have all thought about and it's something we have all talked about and it's something we're all, I think,

trying to change in some way, but that's very hard because we're mothers. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not a mother, just have dogs that, we're just walking behind, but similarly, I still, sometimes I'm like, I know that I feel, like, secure myself and that I feel independent in most ways, but I also still, like, feel the pressure to, like, handle all of the stuff at home, basically, even though I wouldn't expect it for myself. So I do feel like some of it is, like, it's not that anyone's telling us always that

we have to feel that way. I do think it's just kind of, like, still in our minds a little bit still. Or maybe because we've been told for so long, through generations, that it's just, you know, it's just embedded in the fabric of being, of being a woman. And I think that it's one of the reasons I love when women support women. I love when women lift each other up. when we help each other. We do this so much in the author community, so much. Mothers are not, you know, we help each other all of us because we know what it's like to be a woman.

We know how much we all deserve to succeed and how much we only want the best for each other. I think that's, that is the best version of female relationships for sure. And I like to write, I like to write about the real. twisted ones. I know. That's kind of what I was thinking about. Like, I love reading about the twisted relationships that women sometimes have. But in the real world, it is pretty amazing when there's the really positive version of it. So kind of further along in the book, at one point, Holly shares with Sarah that she feels like she doesn't know who she is yet. And Sarah responds, you're not supposed to. I'm 41, and I still don't. That's why I take pictures. I point my lens at other

people in hopes of finding out who I am and what I want. And so there really is this theme throughout the book of discovering who you are by comparing and contrasting yourself in relation to other people. So how do you feel like Sarah and Holly kind of figured themselves out by being in relationship with each other? Well, I think, first of all, comparison, I don't know who said it, but comparison is the thief of joy. I think that one of the reasons their relationship fell apart and one of the reasons it became so toxic was they were both longing to find a piece of themselves

that was missing in each other and thought they had found that. Holly was desperate for a mother figure And Sarah was, you know, desperate to find herself and to remember who she had been when she was young and was also trying to control everything around her. Neither of them had found internal happiness or satisfaction. and, you know, much because of the traumas they'd experienced and much because of what was what was going on in their families. And so they became very close, very fast and too close, too fast. And I think, you know, there's a lot of miscommunication in the book and a lot of lack of communication in the book.

And that was a theme as well as when people aren't communicating to each other, they're dissatisfaction. and it's eating them up inside because they don't feel safe enough to do it. They don't have the courage to do it. Someone's not open to hearing it. It just leads to toxicity and danger and sometimes murder. And so that process for them had started off actually really positive, where they looked up to each. other in some way and they saw this beauty in each other but then it just

deteriorated and devolved and became extremely dangerous. Yes, I loved their relationship with each other and I really loved seeing it progressed as well. Thank you. And I just love the whole book. Thank you. So where can people find you? Find me?

you to follow you so they can stay updated and just plug whatever. So you can find me on my newly designed website at samanthaambele.com or dot cae. And you can, I'm, I love, by the way, to hear from my readers. I get the most beautiful messages and posts and emails and it's everything. It's everything to me. I mean, my readers changed my whole. life, my whole life. So you can find me at S. Bailey Books on Instagram and Twitter and Samantha M. Bailey

author on Facebook. I'm on Facebook and Instagram quite a bit more than I am on Twitter, but I am very, very active on social media. And I also, on my social media, give book recommendations of other authors books. So books I love, I shout about. So definitely if you're looking for thrillers, if you love thrillers and rom-coms and historical fiction or whatever genre you love, pop on by for book wrecks too. Yeah, so definitely go follow her so we can keep up with all of your new releases that will probably be coming out in the future and then for recommendations as well. And thank you for being on the podcast. Kate, thank you so much for reaching out to me for loving my work, for making me laugh at your

barking dogs in the background, and for having me today.