Bookwild - Saumya Dave's The Guilt Pill: Mom Guilt, Ambition and Maintaining Your Individuality

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Saumya Dave about her new thriller The Guilt Pill! She shares how she found the inspiration for the book, how her work as a psychiatrist informed the book, and how she started the book while pregnant with her first child, and finished it while she was pregnant with her second!The Guilt Pill SynopsisWhat if women could get rid of their guilt?Maya Patel has it all—her own start-up, a sexy, doting husband, influencer status, and now, a new baby. Or does she? Because behind closed doors, Maya's drowning.Her newborn's taking a toll on her marriage, her best friend won't return her calls, and her company's hanging on by a thread. The worst part? It's all her fault. If she could just be a better boss, mother, wife, daughter, friend… Maybe she wouldn't feel so guilty all the time.Enter: #Girlboss Liz Anderson, who introduces her to the "guilt pill," an experimental supplement that erases female guilt. At first, it’s the perfect antidote to Maya’s self-blame and imposter syndrome, and she finally becomes the unapologetic woman she’s always wanted to be. But there's a catch: for Maya to truly "have it all," she needs to be ready to risk it all. And as Maya falls deeper and deeper down the pill's guilt-free rabbit hole, her growing ruthlessness could threaten everything she's built for herself—and the family she's worked so hard to protect.Electric, taut, and sharply observed, The Guilt Pill is a feminist exploration of motherhood, race, ambition, and how the world treats women who dare to go after everything they want. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Samia Davay about her new horror thriller, The Guilt Pill. And it was such a fun conversation about the demands of motherhood, the way that mothers end up handling guilt, and the importance of maintaining your individuality as a mother. Here is the synopsis. What if women could get rid of their guilt? Maya Patel has it all, her own startup, a sexy doting husband, influencer status, and now, a new baby? Or does she? Because behind closed doors, Maya is drowning. Her newborns taking a toll on her marriage, her best friend won't return her calls, and her company's hanging on by a thread. The worst part, it's all her fault. If she could just be a better boss, mother, wife, daughter,

friend, maybe she wouldn't feel so guilty all the time. Enter Girl Boss Liz Anderson, who introduces her to the guilt pill, an experimental supplement that erases female guilt. At first, it's the perfect antidote to Maya's self-blame and imposter syndrome, and she finally becomes the unapologetic woman she's always wanted to be. But there's a catch. For Maya to truly have it all, she needs to be ready to risk it all. And as Maya falls deeper and deeper down the pill's guilt-free rabbit hole, her growing ruthlessness could threaten everything she's built for herself and the family she's worked so hard to protect.

Electric, taught, and sharply observed, the guilt pill is a feminist exploration of motherhood, race, ambition, and how the family. the world treats women who dare to go after everything they want. As you know, I am always interested in a story that dives into psychological issues and psychosocial issues with women and the consequences of living in a society like that. So I was very intrigued when I first heard about this book and I was so excited to talk to her about it. So that being said, let's hear from Samia. So I am so excited to talk about the guilt pill. I am. I'm such a sci-fi speculative fiction fan, but especially in this realm of like existing as a woman and then trying to also be a mom. But I did want to get to know a little bit about you before we dive right into it. So you've done a lot of things. But what was the moment where you were like, I want to write a book or I want to be an author? What was that moment for you? moment happened when I was very young. I grew up, you know, I immigrated to the United States with my parents when I was two years old and my parents worked a lot around the clock during our first years here. And so I spent a lot of time by myself. I'm an eldest daughter. And so I read a lot of series. You are too. I am. We have to talk about that. I am. I am. The eldest daughter read a lot.

So much to unpack together. Yes. And so books really kept me company, and they taught me a lot about a world that was beyond the one I was in. And I always dreamt of being an author. And I thought it could be such a magical thing to do is to provide stories to people looking either for an escape, for entertainment, for learning, for a combination. I just didn't know any authors.

I didn't know many people in creative fields at all, actually. So it was one of those things that I had thought about since I was very young because I was always a book lover. But I didn't know it was a possibility. until I would say I was in my 20s because before that it was just one of those dreams that I saw other people did do that but because I didn't know them personally it felt so far off totally yeah and I felt I felt the same way it sounds like we have a lot in common that was it's like it wasn't even going to be an option to be talked about in our family to like pursue something creatively

and I see both sides of it it's not like it's not it's not it's not the easiest route to take and it's not always going to help your life financially that much. But it, through the podcast, I've kind of had the same experience where I'm like, oh, you can actually do it. And I've talked to enough people where I'm like, you can do it and still be doing something else where you're making your money. And so it was so much different in my adult life, getting to think about it. I love that.

So you created your own path too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did your writing process develop? up like do you have like do you have structure do you plot like how do you approach it it's changed throughout the year so when i was in medical school and residency i just wrote whenever i wasn't studying or at the hospital so it almost felt like i was squeezing writing into whatever spaces were left in the

week and so sometimes that meant an hour a day and sometimes that meant an hour a week or every two weeks depending on just what rotation i was on and where i was at if i was working night shifts you know in residency, then my whole sleep was thrown off. So then that would mean that there was a stretch where I didn't write so much. So I would always have the story percolating in my mind. So I know people often talk about whether writers or plotters where they map everything out or pancers, where they just kind of, you know, see what comes out when they sit down. I'd say I've oscillated between the two based on just what my schedule has been like. But the story is always in this kind of separate compartment in my mind all the time. It's always there. And so there's an openness that I try to have in my daily life

of just taking in information. So that way when I do get that time to sit down, I automatically can get to work, which sometimes can be hard to just get into that zone. Now, since being done with residency, I actually have two whole days a week just to write, which is incredible. So it's funny.

I often get asked, oh, how do you do both? But actually it feels more doable, having that structure and the set days for things, rather than being in a stage where I'm learning and training and all those different things and trying to fit in writing wherever it can go. Yeah, that makes a lot of,

lot of sense. I, my husband and I, we basically make content for people, social media websites and stuff. So you're both creatives. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so not as challenging, not the same kind of challenging as residency and all of that, but it is one of those things where like we don't really have days off. Like you could always spark. It's you. Yeah. Like you're the one. And when you're trying to like grow another area of the business like you're just very busy so i i know what you mean because like sometimes i'm like what would it be like to just absolutely not have to work on saturday and sunday and like just you could just fill the time with whatever you want so right i get what you're saying it really it makes a big difference it does it does um so you have done i mentioned that quite a few things and i'm just

going to read all of these off um but you are a writer you're a psychiatrist or or have been these things in your life. Professor, mental health advocate, mother, which fits this. But you're also a mental health commentator on NBC and co-founded this is for her, which is a nonprofit that uses art therapy to help with mental health. So even when I just read that, I was like, oh, this is going to be fascinating that someone with all of this wrote a book like this. How did all of that, like, affect the writing of the guilt pill? It really felt like it was informed by things I've been doing and questioning my entire life. And so I think ultimately I am a storyteller and I seek stories. I'm a story taking in. What is the word for someone who just takes in stories? I was going to say

a reader. Yeah, there's maybe there's like bibliophile or something. Right. Yeah. And so, so I when I was postpartum with our first child, I had this fantasy, but this is before I was pregnant, that, oh, when one has a baby, the baby then comes out, and then they just get integrated into your life. So you do all the things you do, but then there's this cute little companion with you all the time. Yeah, that was not true at all. It's the most of this important. It's what they want us to think, though. That's what they want us to think, right?

100%. And so then when I was pregnant and gave birth in December 2019, I told myself, okay, when my, you know, what we call the fourth trimester, the first three months after birth are done, I'm going to reintegrate into the real world. Well, that was March of 2020. when lockdown happened. Oh my gosh. And so right when I was getting ready to join the world again, we were all back in our confined, isolated space. And there was so much unknown that time about the virus,

about the state of the world, about how long this condition would continue. And so it was a very scary time. And I felt like I experienced motherhood almost in what felt like a pressure cooker at that time. And so I began, and whenever there were moments, I would seek out advice from other moms. And one thing that came up a lot was,

well, you're going to feel really guilty. if you do anything for yourself, you are. Just know that. And it was said in such a straightforward, just expect this kind of way. And that turned out to be true. I did feel that. And I wondered what was behind that because I knew on some level, if, for example, I would go for a walk by myself, I wasn't actually doing something wrong that was going on a walk alone, but I would feel bad.

And so that led to this deep dive of just wanting to understand more about guilt, about what we call mom guilt, about why I don't ever hear the term dad guilt. And it was this really. really fun integration of my psychiatry day job with what I was wanting to explore in fiction, and then also what I was really grappling with in my personal life. They just came together. And then it was during a phone call with a very close friend. She told me she fantasized about being mildly injured so she could be hospitalized and have meals brought to her and watch law and order on repeat from a bed. And she couldn't do that otherwise because of the guilt that

I found myself thinking, I wish I could turn this off for her for a day so she could give this permission to herself. And then I thought, wait a minute, what if, what if there was a pill that could do that for someone for these finite periods of time just to give them what they think is a leg up during that time? What would then happen to a character in this situation? Yeah. It's so tempting to want something like that because it just, I don't have kids, but when I think about it, most of my fears are covered in this book, like the losing my sense of individuality and like, the fact that I, that I've just talked to enough mothers, read enough books about mothers, like all those things where you really can't experience other people's experiences.

Like, I know the guilt is inevitable in general for most moms. Like, for your generally healthy mom, like, you just feel it. And it makes sense to me. Like, I feel guilt. My dogs want two WALK's day. And it was pouring rain for like a lot of last week. And I feel guilty telling them like, no, we just can't right now. And I'm like, I don't need to feel bad.

They're dogs. Like, I love them, but they're just dogs. So I'm like, then turn that into a kid. Like, I just know, I just know how much it's just going to be something that I would have to deal with. And it does freak me out. And there's not a real guilt pill, unfortunately yet, or fortunately, depending on how you end up feeling by the end of the book. But everything you're saying, like dads just don't seem to innately. Most dads don't tend to in innately have dad guilt.

I've never heard people talk about dad guilt. either. But the other thing I thought was interesting in the book is it also kind of focuses on how guilt is like personal and but it's also cultural. And so it's like also informed by the culture you live in or the culture that you come from. So how were you approaching that like guilt from all of those different angles? When I went into my deep dive, I found that depending on which either mental health expert or researcher's work I found, I found different divisions of guilt, which I thought was interesting. So the categories varied by name,

but one that really stuck out to me was maladaptive guilt versus adaptive guilt. And that's, you know, maladaptive guilt being guilt that doesn't help us. It actually just makes us feel bad. It might actually hold us back in some ways. And it might be rooted in something that I call emotional muscle memory, where you're even given an idea about what it means to be a good girl or a good mother, a good care provider. and that's really informing whether we feel bad or not.

Adaptive guilt cues us into our values and what we really want and the life we want to build and the things we want to do and the things we want to model and be a part of for the people around us. And so what was really important for me with Maya was her grappling with both forms, but then being kind of muddled together because I found that that happens with all of us. Yeah. We don't often get those opportunities to really pick apart. What are our real values? What do we really think is good versus bad versus somewhere in the spectrum between both?

And so what do we actually think we have the permission to do versus not do? And then how have we been conditioned? It's so funny. You mentioned, like, I haven't heard dad guilty either. I hadn't either. And now I hear it from my husband. He feels guilty often. And he, you know, he took paternity leave with his job.

He is very hands on. I mean, we split everything equally. And so he will then, when he has something to come up forward, he says, I feel so bad. And so that even teaches me that if we're primed, if girls are primed from a young age, to take care of people and always be mindful of how their people are feeling. that's something that's taught. It's not actually innate to us. And so maybe guilt that comes from those types of sources deserves to be examined a little bit further. Yeah. That's reminding me of when I was in therapy. I had a lot of like toxic shame. But what we should my therapist kind

of explained similarly that like shame is like is feeling bad about something that like you, you don't necessarily at your core actually feel bad about it. But it kind of what you're saying with a maladaptive guilt is how she helped me to see the difference between like guilt is when like one of my own values has been crossed. And I just want to correct that versus like shame that's like this deep seated thing that says you're completely bad because you did this thing that like culture or family or whatever told you that you shouldn't do. And then that that ends up paralyzing you most of the time. So yeah. I feel like it is important to see those distinctions. Yeah. Sometimes it does course correct you like good guilt. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it can keep you aligned to your own internal compass. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all. No, no. I don't think so either. So in your research, how did you, where do you fall on if guilt can be cured, like the bad kind of guilt and the good, like where do you fall on what we can do with guilt? I think to be honest, it would be difficult to do it with the pill because there's some.

many layers to it. And then there's also, you know, you alluded to this, the interplay between guilt and shame is quite strong. And because there is such a societal and cultural component to it, I imagine it would vary depending on maybe where we are in the world, where we are in history, and where we are right in communities and the people we're around. And so I think a real guilt would be tough. But what I don't think is impossible is actually for anyone who feels guilt to actually sit with it and uncover where it's coming from, what's bringing it up. Are there patterns there. There's something called a self-talk log, which I prescribe, so to speak. I say that in air quotes. It's not a medication, but it's literally for a week to just write down when you realize the way you're

speaking to yourself, just write it down and then look at it after a week is past and see the language that you're using. Is it language that actually is not very uplifting? Is it shaming language? Is it judgmental language? Or is it curious and is it compassionate? You know? And so, yeah, I'd I think with those types of things, we can all sit with our guilt and understand it more and then tackle it, so to speak. I think a pill could be tougher. Yeah, I think so. It's not, you kind of mentioned in the book, too, like, you kind of tell the difference between like SSRIs. Yeah.

Do a certain thing and like, like your larazepam to quote white lotus at this point. I know, right? We're talking about larazepam thanks to white lotus. Right. And the way that they help, but they don't, no matter what, like I'm on Zambam's. Zoloft and it is life changing for me. But no matter what, like the feelings are still there. It's just they don't spiral with the OCD that I struggle with when I'm not on Zoloft. But yeah, guilt would be so isolated to try to, yeah, to try to fix it chemically almost.

Totally. I love that self-talk log idea. And I feel like that was something I did at the beginning of therapy too, where like for a while it was like every thought you have about your yourself, like write it down. And then sometimes you do see how mean you're being to yourself. And you're like, whoa, like it's that bad. Like sometimes you just don't realize it when it's in your head. And there's a podcast I listen to with these two women who, um, kind of talk about all of this stuff. Like also like internal family systems and parts work and like all of that. Um, and one, one of the weeks, the, I'm just going to say their names that I'm not like sounding confusing.

McKinsey was she was saying mean things about herself essentially on the podcast about like and I didn't do this and blah blah blah blah and her co-host Jesse said hey don't talk to my friend that way and I started crying I was like oh my god like the way that she said it and how much she was like hey don't talk to my friend that way and it's like sometimes you need the people outside of you to do that but like just hearing her say it that way it's like wait I should I should be my own friend too Yes, I should be my own friend too. And you mentioned the internal family systems. I just did training on internal family systems for mothers. Nice. And so, yeah, right? Like, which just a brief overview for listeners, internal family systems is based on the idea that we have different parts

within us. And sometimes those parts can be in conflict with one another. And so when we think about that even, like sometimes there's one part of us that feels very guilty for certain things that we do or maybe don't do. We can kind of hone in on that guilt further and just like examine it and sit with it. Yeah. It's so helpful. I remember I first heard about it about it on a podcast like two or three years ago, but it's it's so easy. It makes it so much easier to have a conversation with yourself. That's like the other thing that makes it easier because sometimes I still even, I'm just, I'm programmed for shame for a lot of reasons. Eldist daughter, pastors, kid, like, there's all kinds of stuff there. Um, but it helps me separate it out when I'm when I can catch the bad thoughts.

Then I'm like, okay, I'm talking to like this part of me that feels this way. Can I like bring the adult to the table to like have a conversation about this? And can I really, it helps me separate it and be like, oh, I don't have to be, uh, I don't have to feel like I am shame just because there's like a part of me experiencing it really strongly. Yeah. Wow, that's so powerful. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Book Wild, but I would love to do it without having to have ads in the podcast. And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall.

And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The Book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early. And you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book related or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the bookwild tier. And it includes everything from the first tier, but also Book Wild's Backlist Book Club. So this year, I've been wanting to also still read more backlist, even though I read plenty of arcs.

and Book Wild's back of this book club felt like the perfect way to do that. We meet on Sundays. We are international right now. So Sundays are the best way to do it. And we meet on Zoom and we all pick a book and we talk about it. And then we talk about everything else we read during the month. And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far.

And we'd love to have you join the book club. So if you'd like to support the Book Wild podcast, you can go to the Patreon. link in the show notes and you can sign up for whichever to your interest you. And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. I love it. It has helped so much. There is a, it was, um, Pete Holmes has a podcast called, You Made It Weird with his wife. And he talked about like when he can't get, when he's like spinning out in his head, like, one of the things that he was like reminded to do is to like put all of your awareness in your big toe and you're like okay this sounds weird but then when you put all your

awareness in your big toe it helps you get into your like observer part yeah that is observing the feelings that you're having and that was like game changer for me i think i was even out of therapy when i heard that at that point and so like that's what i'm always like trying the most to get back to when those thoughts you come up i feel like it's just made such a huge difference that most of the time i can also like step back from my feelings without suppressing them. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. So with Maya, how did you approach, like, building her character?

Did she kind of come to you? Like, how did you approach that? So my husband works in tech, and we talk about work with each other all the time. And I've just always been fascinated by so many dynamics within the industry, how it's always looking forward. It's creating these things that it thinks we make. need, maybe we do, maybe we don't, right? We have an entire discussion on that, right? Yeah. But I've always been fascinated by that. And when I was pregnant the first time, I was watching

one of the morning shows and I saw a founder come on pregnant. And she was on a magazine cover. And I remember thinking, wow, this is so incredible. And this person also had a really great social media presence, beautiful photos, all of the things. Six months later, I'm postpartum. This person is too, by the way. And I see all of these articles. written about the same individual in a more critical light. And I remember thinking, oh, wow, we can put women up on a pedestal and then we can also take them down. And so how do we treat the people that we put in the public eye?

What do we do? And what are the values and things that we actually put onto them? Maybe they did have them. Maybe they didn't. But I think we feel disappointed when they don't live up to certain things. And I just got really fascinated with that idea that a lot of people who are online and have these big profiles. there are a lot of people who then feel like they know them and they know their life and they know a lot about them that they probably don't actually know.

And so then when I began doing research about what it's like to be a woman and a founder and being in this space and trying to raise money and trying to get people on board with your idea, I found multiple interviews where different female founders said, I felt like I had to have a very strong social media presence. I felt like I had to be aligned with my brand publicly. Whereas I actually, I don't even know if the CEO of Uber does even have a social media. count. I don't know. That's a great question. Yeah. I don't even know, but I will tell you of some other founders, right, I will know that they do or they don't. And so I then thought, okay, I think I need to put Maya online. I need to make this a part of herself that's very public and where people think they

really know her. And as a woman of color, she feels this pressure to represent everyone in her demographic, which is not ever doable, but she puts that on herself. And then what happens when it looks like maybe reality isn't adding up to that. So it created this really fun space to play in and to experiment with with someone who just put so much pressure on themselves, someone who's so high achieving and someone who has an eldest daughter just feels this need to take care of everyone all the time. Right. Right. And I would not be the one to know about the experience, but is eldest daughter as like in an immigrant family as well? I would assume there's like even more pressure there for her. Definitely. And I think there are socioeconomic

factors at play. You know, so Maya's parents, they own a motel and they've really just been working in this motel for as long as she can remember and they're needed there all the time and she has a younger brother and so when they're caught up with work who's the person to fill in in this intermediate parental type of role it's it's her and then who's the person who has to explain the school system to her parents that's her who's the one who asked to explain why doesn't she you know go out with friends late at night when she really wants to that's that's her so I think she has to almost be a translator in multiple ways as well because they're all getting to know their new home together. Yes. Yeah. And then, yeah, putting her in the influencer-ish, that's what you're doing

when you're saying your social media account matters. Putting her there, I think that also brought light to how toxic mom culture can be in the influencer sense as well. Did you experience you that yourself or did you do research for that as well? I did a lot of research for that. So one of my favorite podcast is under the influence by Joe Piazza and her entire first season is about mom influencers. And so I listened and she goes into the origins of how they came to be and how they were actually on Instagram before things were being sold on Instagram. And then there was this realization that they could sell products, which is so interesting. It wasn't just about the photos. And so I began seeing, okay, a lot of people who are either parents are thinking about becoming parents or just found themselves

in this algorithm, they're seeing photos of these beautiful lit, apartments that are really clean. Everything's in these neutral colors. Everybody's wearing matching clothes and everybody looks perfect and they're seeing this as the image of motherhood. So when their own reality doesn't match up because parenting is messy, life is messy and not always matching, not often matching. They might find themselves falling short. I didn't actually feel that way myself and I wonder if almost being able to study it at the time I was entering it myself helped in a way that I don't expect. And then I also, one of the other exercises I do in therapy is a social media inventory

where we go through, you know, a feed together and then jot down how you feel after about a few minutes of scrolling and really take away, okay, if you're feeling drained, if you're feeling jealous, if you're feeling less than, can we mute or unfollow? And then can we add in accounts that actually align with you or teach you something? And I've actually been doing that for a long time. So I actually learned a lot of really helpful things about parenting, especially during the pandemic. when so many of us were isolated. I learned a lot of that from social media in a really powerful way because my fee, so my experience actually was quite different than Maya's. That's good. But I actually

think my research helped with that, which helped you like kind of be removed from it and sort of like run into it. Yeah. There is I just interviewed someone. Her name's Elizabeth Rose Quinn and she wrote follow me, which is like a horror thriller about mommy influencers. Yeah, I love that. And what's crazy is I was I was like trying to remember I wanted to tell her you guys have a very similar story. She also became a mother right as the pandemic started. Wow. So she had the opposite experience and was seeing all everything you just said. The picture perfect. And then and then when you're in one of the most vulnerable times of your life as a woman, um, becoming a mother, uh, you're getting sold to. And it's like, this is going to solve this for you. This is going to solve this for you. And she had this story about like,

like they were, it was like sleep training was horrible. And like she couldn't figure out how to have her kids sleep. And so she found a system that she thought she like trusted essentially and worked her way through it. And when it got to the eighth step, you had to sign up for a membership and buy something to get the eighth step. And I was just like so enraged just hearing that story because I'm like, I know what it means to be tired. I don't know what it means to be tired postpartum tired and like not sleeping and thinking you had a solution. And then someone does that. Like I she was like it made her so Maddenance, part of what fueled her writing that book. And I'm like, it is just, I'm sure there were lots of women who started, who maybe are even selling stuff, who started out from a place of

actually wanting to help. And like, you're saying they must exist because you kind of curated your, your feed to be that way so that you did have a different experience. But when it like really gets into the like selling so much stuff and it's, and maybe, and motherhood's different for everyone maybe sometimes it is easier for other people but i don't think i don't think it's very honest and then it's shocking when um i can't remember if i saw this quote while i was reading your book or if your book had the quote in it but it it talked about uh we we tell we tell mothers you need a village and then we ask them to be an entire village like yeah i was like that that is like the shocking part like I think the reason motherhood concerns me in some ways is just because I've seen how much ends up falling back on the woman for all kinds of reasons.

It's not even always like patriarchal ones. It's like your body is the one that changes. Your body is the one that is maybe breastfeeding if you choose to go that route. And like you're connected in a different way than dads are just in general. And so it's such a big undertaking and like having people in full. influencing you at that time is so rough. And when there is such a lack of support for mothers, of course mothers are going to want something that feels like it's going to make it that much easier, even if it's that one person from a product. But I have had women ask me, they're like,

if I get this baby carrier, will I feel like I'm put together finally? And so it's that promise. It's that promise and that hope. But what we really need is support in many, many different forms. And I, and I, of course, I understand the allure of thinking that a product we're told that we're told if we buy the specific toys then hand-eye coordination and all the milestones will be reached so they're all interlate together in this really complicated way yeah it really is also i love your social media thing in therapy that's just like i love that that's such a cool concept and i also like of course you can really uh kind of like dive into stuff about yourself by looking at stuff like that um and when you were talking about kind of you're

a little bit talking about parasycial relationships. We think we know people because they post a lot. And sometimes you do. Sometimes you do know maybe more like I well, I obviously podcast. So like there's like hours of me talking going out every week. And so it's like the people who listen definitely know me better. But it doesn't mean they like most of the time they actually don't know like the scary things that I was dealing with earlier in the day. Yeah. They don't know everything. They know what you're giving them. But they don't know everything. Yeah. And. And. And that whole parasycial part is just so fascinating because that's been intriguing to me for a while now, as well as fame. I don't want to be recognized. I don't think. I would love to have lots of books sell, but be the kind of famous where I can still walk down the street. So I think I'm really fascinated by fame because it seems so different than anything I would be interested in. So it's something that has just always been in the back of my mind. But I remember when, So even when Taylor Social was on the Airs Tour, and so she was everywhere, like on social media. I feel like I'm a fan.

I don't know. I know a lot about her because then it turned into like Easter eggs or like reading a thriller. So I just had to know all the information. But I don't like blindly defend her either in the way that is sometimes associated with Swifties. All of that to say. Because I was like, oh, I'm going to figure out all these Easter eggs. There's more and more of her in my feed. And when I started to realize, and by the way, I'm not saying this is Taylor's fault.

It's not. It's not anyone's fault. But then I would get on here to podcast and I'd be like, oh my God. Like my hair is like such a mess. Like it my bangs don't. How do I fix my bangs to like this way? And so even I had to kind of consciously be like, okay, I don't need to be looking. I don't need to consume this much content about any celebrity or like people whose faces are, they have all kinds of wealth that is making their face look different than mine. Like all kinds of things like that. true. So it is just, it's hard to catch it sometimes, but it's like, basically all of that was me saying, like, that's such a cool idea in therapy, because it's like, it does bring your stuff up. It does. And I think it influences how we think and what we focus on and then what we might, you know,

do or feel compelled to do and what we might dwell on. And so I think what we're taking and we're taking it and it's so easy to access to. It's right there on our devices. And so I think it is really, it's a practice I return to regularly actually it's not yeah done type thing it's a regular practice of just knowing what are we what are we consuming that's that's really cool i also kind of noticed like an improvement because i spend more time on my bookstagram now than on my personal and it's like it's such generally bookstagram is just a very supportive community and it's like talking about stories which is like my favorite thing in the world to do yeah and so it was interesting i slowly started checking in or like switching into my personal less and less and less. And it wasn't like a conscious, like, well, no, it wasn't conscious that I was

like, oh, I just enjoy being over here more. But now I just am. I'm over here more. And I do, I do like it. It's a little, it's a little nicer and chiller and all my bookish people. So with Maya, I think I feel like part of the book, too, is kind of is dealing with the fact that similar to what you were saying, you thought, oh, I'll have a baby. My life will very, like, just be slightly interrupted. I'm just going to have a little sidekick. I think it feels like before she had her kid, she was somewhat similarly thinking, like, my life won't be that much different. And I'm going to get back to work. And all these things that matter to me can all matter to me. And then after the fact, she's like, okay, this is a lot harder than I thought. And I still want

to feel like an individual and I still want to feel like myself. But a huge part of me also doesn't want to leave my kid ever, like just all the hormones, really. So how did you kind of approach that with Maya and maybe like talk to about that importance of still feeling like an individual when your mother? One of my favorite books I read during my research process was called To Have and to Hold by Molly Millwood. And she's a therapist who works a lot with people who are either planning to give birth or just have or, you know, dealing with family life. And what she says is that every single mother feels attention between wanting to be with their kid and then also wanting to be somewhere else, whether that's alone, whether that's at,

if they're doing paid work outside, whether that's in shower, being unbothered, whether that's on a vacation. That is just attention that always exists. So the way she normalized that, I think it helped me on a personal level. And then also informed my work professionally as well. I knew that I then had to have Maya grappling with it and then thinking that that tension made her a bad mom. But actually, it just makes her a human being who has gone through the biggest life transition a person can go through on many, many levels. And so she takes all this, you know, she internalizes it and feels bad. But what I want her to realize over time is that this is what everyone goes through. Yeah. Yeah. And I talk with my sister-in-law a lot. And she and I've had similar conversations,

both about marriage and children is like now it's a little more prevalent and I think that's like the positive side of the internet which is what I thought was cool that you were like I still court I still curated my feed to be what I wanted it to be because sometimes like when people are like the algorithm is terrible I'm like yeah the algorithm is showing you what you lean or what you linger on so if you're saying everything is hateful on the internet I know I know what you like to watch at this point. So I, but the more positive sides of it, I feel like there's more resources that women can have to kind of hear these other sides of marriage and motherhood.

But my sister-in-law and I have that conversation a lot that like this is a stuff people, at least when we were growing up, weren't talking about. They weren't. And it just wasn't out there. And so it's so easy to be like, oh, I have this really weird tension with becoming a mom or like all of those things and we just didn't talk about it enough until recently. And I feel like it is one of those things where like when you're feeling so overwhelmed, it does help to know you're not the first person to have gone through it because it kind of like it kind of helps you believe that

there is that there are people who've come out the other side of it. So like coming out the other side of it is possible. Definitely. I think she, Maya is very hyper independent. You know, she believes she has to manage everything on her own and nobody else can and help her she's only out there to help herself and it's it's a flaw to need others and so you know that's something she's carried with her from a very young age and she also tends to get isolated when she's overwhelmed and so she she retreats further and further into herself she's not what i would call someone who explodes she maybe implodes it happens inside and so it was really important for me to show her that vulnerability letting people know that she's not okay knowing that she's not the first one like you said and that

not alone in her feelings. All of those things were just so important for me to have her grapple with and understand as she goes through this journey. That, what you just said, though, also a lot of eldest daughter things that resonated with me. 100% when you said she doesn't explode and maybe she implodes, I was like, oh my God, that's exactly it. Because my mom is really, was really histrionic, extremely histrionic about a lot of stuff. And so sometimes, even just when I'm PMSing and like the rage is out of control, but it's all in my head. Sometimes then I start freaking out and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like her. And then I'll be like talking to my sister at Lawn. She's like, you're not exploding on anyone though. Like, why are you thinking that? And I'm like,

my thoughts are so angry though. And she's like, but you're not acting on any of them. And so that's something I have been coming to terms with more and more lately is like, but I'm not doing that, but implosion. I had never thought of the fact that that's what's happening, though, when it's all just stuck inside me. It's still, it's still going somewhere, but it's actually hurting the person even more maybe because they're containing. And I think we also face our fears and we face what we maybe saw in our caregivers, parents, authority figures, right, during really tough moments as well. And that was something important for me to show with her. as well that she she's worried about giving her son the same childhood that she had she's not anywhere

close to that she's not anywhere close to that she's not doing that she's already so mindful of it that it's not at risk but that fear has been there for a long time and so a lot of the things she does are this attempt to gain control and to let go of that fear yeah yes that's what uh my sister and all and i talk about that as well is like she'll get worried about stuff similar to that and she's like when she was in therapy, she was like, the fact that you're worrying about it and like trying to do it differently probably means you're most likely going to do it differently, not perfectly, but differently, like if it's something that you're aiming for already. And I was like, oh yeah, I guess that does.

That does make a lot of sense. Then there's also the having it all conversation with women, which I feel like is another situation we never talk about with men like I don't think I mean I haven't heard it um and so and it sounds so appealing and if you're someone who's like a high achiever and everything you've mentioned you love control like all of those things you're like I can do it I can do it um needless to say literally the fact that it says have it all there's just absolutely no way anyone ever will. It's actually just completely not possible, but it's so alluring. So how did you approach that side of what mothers deal with? Yeah. So, you know, she did grow up. She's an eldest

daughter again. And then she grew up with pretty tough standards, both put on her from her community, from her family, and then also over time, they became part of her and the way she identified and viewed herself as good and worthy and acceptable. And so I think, her productivity, her work ethic, and her accomplishments being tied to worthiness. That's kind of this deep rooted relationship that she has with herself over time. And then that comes out in everything. It comes out in how she mothers. It comes out in how she is a boss at work.

It comes out in how she feels as a wife. And she really, really that pressure. It trickles out into everything. She doesn't compartmentalize. She just says, well, you know, if there's one more role I'm taking on, that's also going to get this treatment too. And she realizes that that's not sustainable for many, many reasons. not only just from a pure energy standpoint, but even from a personal fulfillment. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like when we're talking about her still feeling like an individual, I think that's kind of what you're talking about there for like personal fulfillment. Like I feel like we are somewhat trained as women to meet other people's needs. Like that is very much something we hear in all kinds of messages from early on, even if it's not your family. And so then breaking that pattern is so difficult. I loved what you called, you said, an emotional muscle memory.

And kind of like, I feel like that's like a better way to explain neuroplasticity, like that you can change it, but like you're going to go the like default route until you like, you have to, it takes so much more work to change it, but you want to change it. how do you see the importance of like still being connected to that individual self and like feeling like you are also accomplishing things outside of your kids? Yeah, I think it's so important, right? And one of the myths that we have sold, and this is everywhere around the world, is that a good mother is a sacrificial one.

He is always giving, who is always nurturing. She puts herself last. And she gives everything she can to her kids and who. family and her community and others whatever's left over is what she gets but we really do need to flip that narrative that when someone is whole and when someone is rested and when someone is feeling good that's when actually they are in the best possible place for themselves and then to give that's the place to give from when there's an abundance those things not when it's in this depleted state and so Maya definitely feels that she also saw that in her own mother her mother was always giving

and her mother was putting herself last so even her mother has normalized this to an extent all the women in her community have. They make her feel like she's so lucky to be with a nice man. So even the standards are so, so different between what's expected of her and what's expected of him. And so I think this informs a lot of different things for sure. And really, I think a lot of, you know, people when they become parents, there is that fight for individuality. Like that when actually in IFS motherhood training I did, that was one of the central things. It was where do I fit in? What about me? That was kind of a set of questions that came up. Like, what about me? What about me? What about me and all of this? And I thought that was a really powerful way to look at it.

That is. I love that. So she's also, Maya is also a very ambitious woman, which is one of those words that sometimes means something different when you say it about women than men. We're finding all kinds of those. And that's another endpoint for guilt as well is like maybe even if you don't have kids, some of society is still thinks you're a little weird if you're an extremely ambitious. even like just like an unapologetic woman as well. So what did you do any research with that or kind of how did you approach that part too?

Yeah, definitely. So I found things like the likeability trap, how women in workplaces, right? They're held to this likeability standard far more than men. Their behaviors are critiqued much more harshly. Even when it's the exact same behaviors. And I found this incredible report in the Harvard Business Review. co-written one of the writers is my friend, Ruchika Tulshan, but I'll send the information for that. But it's about how imposter syndrome might actually be rooted in sexism and racism.

And so we put it on the individual, but we actually should be looking at the systems that contribute to this idea coming up that I don't belong here. I'm not worthy of being here. And so, yeah, my research, you know, opened up a lot of different fun portals that I could have honestly spent my entire time, even going even deeper into those because there's so much to understand. pack but definitely I found things on every front and even I would read essays by mothers who would say that if they took their kid out without an umbrella and it started raining they would get stopped by someone saying why didn't you prepare and then if their their husbands did that somebody would offer an umbrella and so all I mean the stories and the you know and everything I looked at is just endless wow that is wild yeah I have seen because I get like uh therapy related stuff

on TikTok a lot. But that there's more of a focus now on how systemic stuff is, that's something that the individual can't change in therapy. So when it is the systemic stuff they're going up against, like, you just had the conversation so different because it's not like the approach of like, let's rewire your thoughts. Like sometimes their thoughts are right about the way that they feel like they can't move forward in certain areas. Right. And her husband, isn't getting judged for spending all his time at work. Not at all. He's not getting judged. She's feeling like she will be judged if that becomes. But they actually are both ambitious individuals. It's not just her. And so it's a, it was really fun to kind of play with how that pans out with a couple

who actually felt like they were both on the exact same page before they had a kid and everything was divided equally. And then suddenly this comes and it throws everything into chaos. Yeah. Well, and it's like, it's like how guys, they're like, oh, he's babysitting the kids. You're like, no, he's not. those are his children. It's not possible when you're his own. That is not what's happening here. Did you know where you were headed with the book when you, like, did you kind of know the ending you had in mind while you were writing?

Yes and no. So I actually had a completely different ending during the first couple of drafts. And then after talking about it with my agent, it shifted into what it is or closer to what it is. And then with my editor got even closer and closer. I would say that I had this idea and then it definitely evolved with edits, which is the beauty of being able to work with other people because I think getting out of our own heads and, you know, we're obviously so attached to our own work. We're the closest possible and we can't always see it.

Yeah. The right perspective. And so being able to do that was just so, so helpful. And I, you know, I now realize that was the right ending, but I would not have been able to come up with that. Oh, yeah. That's cool. I have noticed that I'm writing something right now. But the first thing that I became so aware of was like, I'm never going to be able to read what I write and have it like new in my head. So it's like when I'm like, am I foreshadowing too much? Is this making it too obvious? There's like no way for me to do it on my own to like go back and read it because it's like my brain already knows all of it. So it is like it's cool having it's another example of like just really meeting people to meeting people have conversation about it like all of that. Totally. What was my other question? I felt like I had one. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I've asked them all.

Do you read as well? Like fiction? I read. I obviously read a lot. Yeah, I love fiction. So I'm a big fiction fan and a nonfiction fan as well. Right. Have you read anything either fiction or nonfiction that you've loved recently? Yeah, so I read the other Latha by Kyrton Aromisetti, who I'm very lucky to even call a friend, and I got to read an early copy of that book, but it's a very fun premise. So it's about a woman named Latha who starts getting emails from like someone who is intending to send them to a woman with the same exact name. But this other Latha has a much more glamorous life and much more wealth. And she gets invited to these really fun New York gala and premieres and all these things. And so then this lethar starts actually accepting the invites because it looks like the other let that isn't going.

So it's got fun Anna Delvey type vibes for anyone who watched inventing Anna or knows that story, mixed with the nostalgia of just New York from about 10 years ago when things were obviously different. A little bit pre-social media being what it is now too. Yeah. So it was a fun, fun place to go. Yeah. I'm always reading something. I also read Mad Woman by Chelsea Baker.

That opening line. Oh, my gosh. One of the best ever. Yes. Yes. I was just sharing stuff about the whole chapel rhone conversation. And I was like, this whole discourse is reminding me of it. It's like, the world isn't made for mothers, but mothers made the world. And then the next one is the world that isn't made for children, but children are the future. And I was like, okay, just starting out really strong. Oh, that writing was just incredible. Fantastic. Incredible. And I was so happy to see because I loved to the push by Ashley Audrain. Yes. And it was so fun seeing Ashley Audrain's name on the cover.

Yes, Mad Woman, because it just felt perfect. It really did. And I, it was even, I got it on like MetGalley, like months before it came out. But I was like, huh, this sounds interesting. And then I saw the blurb that's like, like, like, Ashley Adren said something about like emotional suspense that will like sit in your bones. And I was like, oh, okay, request. Yes, yes.

And she was so right. Yeah. Yeah. She was. She was. And it was great. I'm obviously just gravitating towards motherhood related stories. I reread and then watched the movie Adaptation of Nightbitch by Rachel Yoder.

Also a really fun speculative goes into the horror territory, especially in the book story about taking care of a toddler all day. So really fun and really well done. Yeah. Yeah, those are really cool. And then of course, White Lotus, which isn't fiction, but, you know, is... I mean, it is. Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Yeah, TV fiction is my favorite TV fiction. right now. My gosh. And it just finished airing. It we are recording the day after the finale aired for anyone who's listening at this point. So we're just still in shock. We are. We've still got a lot to process and take in and then read about. So it's going to be eventful. Yeah, 90 minutes. And there's like there's just so much to talk about for sure. Yes. Well, obviously I loved the guilt pill. I love all these topics. And I really, I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. of reading these topics in fiction. It kind of makes it, like you were saying at the beginning, entertaining, and you can kind of learn a little bit, too, as you're reading it. Where can people

follow you to stay up to date with everything? I'm on Instagram at Somia J. Davay, and then my website is www.com. Awesome. I will put those links in the show notes, and thanks for chatting with me about the guilt pill. Thank you. This was so wonderful.