Bookwild - Scandals: Evelyn Hugo, Hollywood Babylon, and More with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: November 2, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton and I talk about scandals both fictional and non-fictional!Books, Movies, Docs We Talked AboutThe Seven Husbands of Evelyn HugoThe Sin Eater: The Crimes of Anthony PellicanoScotty and the Secret History of HollywoodOnce More From the TopDid You Hear About Kitty KarrFanatical: The Catfishing of Tegan and SaraThought Crimes: The Case of the Cannibal CopMommy Dead and DearestI Love You, Now Die: The Commonwealth V. Michelle CarterHollywood BabylonMissing White WomanThe Two Mrs. GrenvillesLa Cote Basque, 1965You're Wrong AboutThe FavoritesOn the SurfacePicnic at Hanging RockThe Hurricane BlondeThe Lady Upstairs Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am back this week with Hallie. We're both in a fun mood. You know, we're a week away from the election. Tensions are high, man. Tensions are high. Yes. But we thought it would be fun to talk about some more fun scandals that aren't so sad and serious. Fictional scandals, basically.

Yes. And I am so excited for, because when we talked about this, you mentioned you had like all these thoughts about evelyn hugo i'm just so excited for everything you're going to bring to the table for this one yes i'm super excited too um i came up with a list of both evelyn hugo and related scandals like one of my favorite things about that book which like much beloved book not just by me but by many people um is you know she does such a good job of like creating this believable old hollywood history and part of that is because she pulled from real life scandals and kind of change things and mix them around. And as a person who since childhood

has been researching old Hollywood scandals, definitely like it too young and age, I had some thoughts about it. And I also wanted to bring to the table some other books that like used real life scandals as jumping off points. Because there's so many books that cover like scandalous things, but I also think it's really fun when they're based on something kind of true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited that you have those because I don't think any of mine are based. Well, one, but yeah, it's going to be a fun one. Yeah, this is going to be a fun one. You watch the show, Scandal, too.

Okay, I have watched some of Scandal years ago. I've watched five seasons, because it started to Peter out for me. Yeah, I agree. My feeling about shows, I think this is kind of just true of most shows that stay on the air for a really long time, particularly ones that are dramatic. like shows like Seinfeld or friends, maybe not so much because you're like, it's more comedy. Yeah, but like when you have to keep building the stakes, you eventually get to a place that's insane. And so that's where I net out sometimes with some of the Ryan Murphys and the Shondaland shows is like when we get to a point where you're like, there's too much in the kitchen to be cooking with.

I kind of like back away from. Oh my God. Okay. But while we're here, Okay, I didn't mean to talk about this, but I just made my roommate watch it the other night. Are you aware of any of the Elizabeth Finch scandals, the woman who wrote for Gray's Anatomy, who basically like lied about a bunch of different stuff? Yes, I just watched the, Munchausenie. Yes, Munchausen for sure. And like, I, sorry. No, this is great.

The listeners are going to be like, sentence cracked. And yes, I have we're a week out from the election. Everything's very high stakes. So I just watched it like two nights ago. And like speaking of real life scandals, how crazy is that story? I know. Because I think it's called anatomy of a scandal is the doc even. Anatomy of lies is what it's called.

And I say that only because I think anatomy of a scandal is another show. That's a real book and TV show. Yeah. Yeah. So it's about this woman Elizabeth Finch who was a writer for, she started on True Blood and then she went to vampire diaries and then she eventually gets on on to Gray's anatomy and has this personal life that she leveraged. It's hard because you don't want to, it's a complicated thing because of what she did where she kind of used real life things.

Like she told everyone she had cancer. She alleged sexual harassment at vampire diaries. She alleged that she had an abortion while she was on cancer treatment. All of these things and wrote these big. articles about them and wrote them into the shows that she was working on. And then come to find out, she's admitted to lying about many, if not all of them. Like, there are a few things that she said she didn't lie about, but it's awfully hard to trust somebody who's willing to lie about cancer and wear a fake chemo port.

Like, that's a crazy. If you're looking for real life scandals, that's a big one. That's pretty nuts. And the way that it like started to like converge with Gray's anatomy where she's like, she's writing in articles like this happened to me or using other people's stories like that's what i heard about too yeah that's crazy so that's a good that's a good jumping off point but i just made my roommate watch it the other night and he was like i need to watch it so i heard another podcaster talking about it and then i read some articles and i just haven't

watched it watched it yet but like wilds she had like a friend like tell her a really horrible thing that happened to her and she just like like wrote it into the show. Yep. Yep. And then at some one point gets married to a woman that she met in trauma therapy that she had entered under the name of the person. She like entered the therapy as her, she went by Joe, which was the name of the character. She was like most known for writing on Gray's Anatomy, which is also sorts of weird.

And so then they meet up. And then this woman has had these like really horrible things happen in her life. And she starts kind of like, I don't know, doing some weird stuff with that. Just as my takeaway is this is a person who's not well, which is not to excuse any of the stuff she's done. But I don't know that you, but like it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy. So wild. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

Yes, yes it is. I totally is. Which is a good jumping off point. So, Evelyn Hugo. Yes, let's be with Evelyn. Also, have you seen the beautiful new copies of the book? No, I haven't. Oh, everyone's getting one and I'm like, how do I get one sent to me?

Seriously. I just need to buy it. That's what I need to do. But it's like, you're like, everyone's getting them from Barnes & Noble. I don't know why I haven't gotten one. It has like green gilded edges with seven rings that go all around. the book and it has like something what is that first part called when you first open the book the uh oh like the inside cover like the illus yeah yeah it has a name i heard someone call it something

but yeah there there's like stuff on the on the insides of the cover too basically as well and i just want it like i want it too i just want it and i'll take a picture with it i want it for my books like it is a dream of mine to have some sort of like a special edition with like decal edges that are like colored and stuff. That would be amazing. Yeah. She just emailed about it. Like I'd been seeing other people had posted about it, but she just emailed that you can buy it now. Yeah. I was like, well, I might need it. Maybe Christmas. That's what someone can give me. Yeah. There we go. Perfect. I love that. But what all do you know about Evelyn Hugo? Here's what I know. So here's the problem about,

Okay, so there are things that I might share that might be a little bit spoilery. So I can either not share those or I can warn you well in advance and you can like, fast forward the podcast. Okay. Yeah. So Evelyn Hugo, for anyone who doesn't know, which would shock me any of your listeners. At this point, yes, is the story of two women primarily, one, a young woman named Monique, who is kind of trying to get her big break in journalism

and gets assigned to write a story about Evelyn Hugo who's putting her clothes up for an auction, I think to benefit breast cancer research, if I'm remembering correctly. And her editor wants her to do a story on all the different dresses that she wore. And for some reason, Evelyn Hugo, who's like, you know, a name on par with Eva Gardner,

Rita Hayworth, Elizabeth Taylor, all of whom were influences for this character in different ways. kind of doesn't speak to the press. But for some reason, she allows Monique to come. But she's like, I don't want to talk about this. What I want to talk about, I want you to write my autobiography, essentially. And basically, one of the most famous things about Evelyn Hugo is that she's been married seven times to seven different men, which is sort of like Elizabeth Taylor was married, I believe, seven times. Five, maybe.

But she was married to what's his face twice. So I can't remember. I should have looked this up. I was counting on my memory being perfect. And surprisingly, I guess it isn't. But Elizabeth Taylor is like definitely an influence in the marriages. Rita Hayworth is another big influence in that Rita Hayworth was actually of Spanish descent. And her name was Margarita Cancino.

And the bosses were like, that's too ethnic. So they made her change her name. They made her dire hair. They made her thread her hair line back. Like they did all this stuff to basically make her more white presenting. And so that's a huge influence on Evelyn Hugo, who is herself half Cuban, but basically kind of downplays it. And then the Ava Gardner of it all is Ava Gardner very famously, like worked with an autobiographer late in her life to tell a lot of her stories, which were also rather scandalous. So, but kind of the, and one of the big ones, so she's married to these different men who have sort of like different Hollywood archetypes that we could.

talk about, but the kind of big ones who loom large in her life, one of them is Max Gerard, who is this French director who kind of like helps revitalize her career, but she winds up kind of marrying him and then realizing he was only with her for the sex symbol, which again is a very Rita Hayworth. Rita Hayworth had this very famous quote about men go to bed with Gilda and they wake up with me about the idea that men wanted to sleep with like the women that she portrayed in her movies, but they didn't really want to deal with the reality of her. At one point, Evelyn has an abortion, which is interesting because there are so many

stories that come out about stars who are made to have abortions by the studio systems. I was on a tour of the Paramount Studios lot years ago and was told in the course of that tour, have not verified this kind of doesn't pass the smell test for me but was told that during the filming of the Wizard of Oz Judy Garland had three abortions and I was kind of like how long were they filming for like that seems high but that I yeah but that was what the tour guy told me um but it just kind of speaks to this like Hollywood star machine where people would be involved in um marriages that would kind of cover up like or cover up certain things.

Like the thing I'm, one of the things I'm trying not to say as a spoiler is that there's a pretty significant queer storyline in Evelyn Hugo. Lavender marriages were a big thing, which is there's a big rumor unsubstantiated that Catherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, who are known as this great love story. Okay, so here's the backstory on that.

Spencer Tracy is married to a woman. She's Catholic, refuses to grant him a divorce. So he never divorces her, but falls in love with Catherine Hepburn. They live together as this kind of like open secret in Hollywood that they could never get married because he could never divorce his wife. And it was sort of a scandal. But there's a big rumor that actually they were each other's beards, that she was a lesbian

and he was gay. And they had created this other scandal in order to be like, oh, we're this tortured love story and we can't be together and it's really scandalous and it feeds the papers, but the scandal of them being together was less scandalous than the reality, which was that they may have wanted to sleep with people of their own gender. And I don't know that that's true, but that is like a big rumor behind the rumor, which is kind of interesting. And you see that play out in a couple of the storylines of Evelyn Hugo that I'm trying to spoil.

It's okay. Yes. there is another big spoilery storyline. So one of the great questions behind Evelyn Hugo is why Monique? Why is Monique the woman that she's telling this story to? And you find out that Monique has a father who passed away in a drunk driving accident or so she thinks. And that there may be connections in her past as to why Evelyn is telling her this story. So that is actually based on. a very famous rumor that is really not substantiated. But there is a rumor that Clark Gable, who I have great and deep sexual affection for, but I think was not a very good man. And I have more to share about him later in a different book. But he, there's a big rumor that,

One night he was driving drunk and I think like Brentwood or Westwood in L.A., like a very shishi neighborhood. And he like missed a curb, hit a pedestrian and killed them. And that they called a Hollywood fixer. And the Hollywood fixer basically came, covered it up, made it seem like it had never happened. There's a couple of different like, I mean, that one's a pretty wild rumor. We do know that there were Hollywood fixers around who did lots of shady stuff on the side. Like, and there's actually a great documentary.

on Netflix about, or I'm sorry, I think it's on Hulu about Anthony Pelacano, who is an infamous, like, 80s, 90s, 2000s fixer. And for example, he was involved in the Michael Jackson case. He was involved in a bunch of different things, but eventually gets taken down for wiretapping. It is, like, if you're at all interested in Hollywood scandals, it's a great ride. I can't remember what it's called. Anthony Pelicano. What name? What name did you say? Anthony Pelicano Sin Eater, the crimes of Anthony Pelicano. And it's a New York Times

presents documentary. So it's like the New York Times is documentary filmmaking arm. And it's, I think four or five parts. I don't think they're very long. I think each episode's like 35 to 40 minutes. It's like disgusting,

but it's great. Like you'll come out of it being like, boy, humanity is trash. But like it's also really excellent. And so we know Hollywood fixers were a real thing. Whether or not Clark Gable actually killed a man drunk driving unknown there is confirmation of some other really terrible stuff he did later um

but that's that scandal is i think where um taylor jenkins reed was drawing a really important plot point in evelyn hugo um and so i think one of the joys of like reading a book like that is kind of like finding all these little different ends um about it and i'm sure there's more that i missed, but those are, those are a few of the big ones. And yeah, I have more I can say about old Hollywood and some of the books that I really like and recommend about reading it, but I'll stop there for a minute. Well, I love that. I didn't catch all of those when I was reading it. I definitely read it a while ago, too. This is the other part, but the fact that there's so much from like elizabeth taylor rita hayworth and eva gardiner like i do think it's so cool because

she talks about how when she does go to write she submers herself in that time period basically um because i and i had heard that in relation to j jay jose jones in the six which is also hella scandalous totally and very like flea-mac coated and like yeah yeah that's what i was hearing her talk about that and like how she was so fascinated by the amount of dynamics happening within that group. And so then she was like, okay, I'm going to like dive into like what it was like during that time and like kind of create this. So it is it's it's an approach to historical fiction that I end up really enjoying. Me too. The way she does it. I think so too. And I think um, I think you can really tell when a writer has done that research.

because the thing I think that speaks to Evelyn Hugo, I mean, I think there's so many things that speak to why Evelyn Hugo has been such a success. But I think it's because it almost does feel real. Like she really does feel like she could have been one of these like grand stars. And in fact, when I was doing some research, I was trying to remember like, okay, what are all the plot points and what are their like corresponding scandals? So I was doing some research for this podcast. And like a bunch of the questions were like, was Evelyn Hugo a real person? It's like, no, my guy, this is fiction. but like clearly she did her job well enough that people believe it which i think is really cool it does it just feels so real and like you don't even it doesn't even feel like she has seven husbands like it's like

it's a good it's the right title for it and it like grabs your attention but it's like every time you're like oh that made sense well that made sense like you just understand all the decisions she makes totally and i think she does such a good job like there's so many small craft pieces that i think Taylor Jenkins read does in this book that really make it feel lived in. And one of them is that like the book is separated into parts by the husband and all of them have their like descriptions in it. So it's like clever Rex North or like that goddamn Don Adler. Like there's this there's this like real sense of like lived alongside somebody.

And I want to recommend for anybody who's interested in more about like Hollywood history. So the Anthony Pelicano documentary for sure. And what was the other thing I recommended earlier? Oh, God. Well, Anatomy of the Lies. That what we're thinking of? Oh, yeah. Anatomy of Lies was good.

But there's also, there's a documentary called Scotty and the Secret History of Hollywood. And it is about a man. And honestly, there are some, like, really deeply sad turns to that. I came out of that feeling, like, very deflated where I was, like, hoping I was just going to feel, like, juicy and scandalized. But Scotty, the person it's about was a man who, basically ran a brothel in Hollywood that catered to all the desires that people couldn't

communicate. And so he has all these. And it was this like infamous place. And I think it was in the, if I'm remembering correctly, it's in the back of a gas station. And you can still find the gas station somewhere in Hollywood. But it was like you would come to pump gas and then you would go to these secret rooms in the back. And it was kind of a whatever you desire situation. And so it was like he has stories about Catherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy. He has stories about Gary Cooper was had this long time male roommate that like you can look this up unconfirmed whether or not they were gay but you can look up that he like lived with this man for 11 years and there's like all these like swinging bachelors like living together things that today

feels very like coded in a certain way and so he kind of seemed to have this inside knowledge of Hollywood and so it's a documentary about this man and his like brothel that he ran and he's telling all of these unbelievable stories about everybody you know from everybody from like um wallace simpson and the abdicated prince or king edward and like to gatherine hepburn to like all these different people and again who knows if it's true or not but like if you are someone who like me really enjoys kind of diving into hollywood myths and legend and gossip even if it doesn't matter if it's real or not it's like a must watch yeah i'm adding it to my list for sure yeah Tyler we have we have we have watching it for sure it's it sounds i'm yawning oh i'm boring you i'm putting you to sleep

because i had to date vina drill oh my gosh i get it i'm sorry allergies are the worst yeah yeah they're um they're bulldozing a brand new neighborhood essentially right on the other side of my house so there is just like dust and harvested pollen in there everywhere so it's fun yeah I get it. But besides the yawn, you and I have, that's what we've always gotten excited about pretty similarly is the Hollywood stuff. It's so fascinating to me. Totally.

Yeah. Another one that I know that I think you and I have talked about too, especially if you liked Evelyn Hugo, this one has like all of the same like everything feels very real and lived in and it spans generations. But did you hear about Kitty Car is so. good and actually has like multiple different same thing like there's a scandal at present but then there are all these other little scandals that happened and I always want to like look at the synopsis just because there are some big spoilers if I talk to freely but in the present

the character Elise St. John is basically her friend her neighbor, her neighbor, passes and basically leaves her fortune to her. And so her neighbor is an older white Hollywood star. And she is a black woman. And she splits it, kitty gives it to all three of the black St. John's daughters. So her sister's daughters.

It could be either. So she leaves it to them. And everyone's like, why did she leave her inheritance then that's like odd like their neighbors they're kind of friends but whatever and so then we start getting this other timeline um of i don't want to spoil anything we get this other timeline of someone else who's growing up in the south um as slavery was ending but as we now know it was not like a oh it's done and so then it was done so kind of takes it from that point up until 1960s or 70s Hollywood and then we're also kind of in the

future as well but it has multiple scandals and you really we really can't talk about really any of them yep I get it but if you I just I feel a hundred thousand percent sure that if you love Evelyn Hugo you would love this book like has so many of the same great things to its structure and writing and all of it totally Totally. And I'm sure plenty of true Hollywood scandals beneath the book scandals, the fictional scandals, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I loved that book so much. There's so few historical fiction where I'm like, I loved it. And so then sometimes I try more of it. And I'm like, no, I'm just really specific. I get it. I get it. And like, I'm with you. There's not all time periods that I think I would find like engrossing. But for sure, like golden of Hollywood is up there for me. It just does it for me. Yeah. Which I'm also kind of excited. This is present day Hollywood, but I did my 10 before the end post yesterday and the close up by Pipp

Drysdale is on it and the cover is so cool. I love the cover. Oh, I looked at that post but I don't remember the cover. Yeah. I think it was like further. It was further in on that one, but it is like a very Hollywood scandalous one that I'm looking forward to. And it comes out. Oh, that looks great. Yeah, and I'm interviewing her in November. So this is a little sneak peek that there will be scandals in the future. Oh, that looks excellent.

I think it sounds really good. Yes. And to that end, where'd you go? Echo Blue is another one that kind of takes like a modern day Hollywood, like, former child Star goes missing and kind of plays with a lot. lot of that. Yeah. And that's by Haley Kreischer and another great recommendation of like Hollywood scandal books. Yeah. I do have another one actually pretty similar to that. This is music adjacent, but I was like, oh, this one's perfect. But I read once more from the top by Emily Layden here recently.

And I interviewed her too. It was such a fun interview. Like you would definitely, because we don't talk about spoilers. We were talking so much about fame and parissocial relationships. I'm like, Holly needs to be here. I was there and see it. Yeah, you were. So I had so much fun talking with her about all of these similar things, too. So again, if you really like that, there's an episode there. But this one covers the easiest way to actually just very quickly explain it is

follows someone whose career is extremely similar to Taylor Swift, like starts out in country, becomes mega famous. And then it's about a lot of the book is very much about looking at how, kind of how easily scandal happens when you're that popular. And just like the upsides, the downsides of all of it. But yeah, her name, her name's Dylan Reed in this book. And like when she has hit like a peak fame, her childhood friend who went missing is found in a lake. And so now she's kind of like pulled back into that.

And so it's mystery. I would also still just even call it contemporary fiction more than anything. That's even a good reads has contemporary and mystery. Expect more contemporary than mystery is all I'm trying to say. But it's like fascinating the way that like then having to go back for like the funeral and stuff makes her reflect on like how intertwined her friend was with the beginning of her career. and it kind of gives her a reason to reflect over everything that's happened in her career. And just how absolutely insane fame can be. Like it can get out of control so fast.

Yeah, totally, totally. It seems like there's no way it couldn't just wreck your life, you know. It's my perspective. Yeah, yeah, same. But also, I don't know, it's something that we all chase. Well, I guess not all of us, but like, to some degree a lot of us want it, you know. Yeah.

I don't want to be so fit. But like that's the thing, right? You're trying to make it. I have like a cap. Right. And I think it probably like there's probably everybody has those good intentions before of like, well, I want to be famous, but I don't really want to like lose who I am or all these different things.

And it's like, but it's kind of inevitable if you actually become famous, you know. Yeah. And there's like the fact that you're always losing who you are. Because like something is always changing you is like the other part. But. For sure. ourselves is just a big version of it. Yeah.

Totally. Totally. And like a lot of the things that change you for the better, which I think are often like challenges or different things, without being too like toxic positivity about it. But like when you remove those, when you become famous, like, I don't think that's a good equation, you know, to be able to be like, I can have anything. It's like sometimes not having the things is like builds character. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. It really does. It's making me think of something else. What was that? It was just making me think of. oh well i can't remember if you and i talked about that or not but i love that chapel rhone is handling fame very differently than everyone else and some people think she's being a little bitch and i'm like i don't really care like i she's not she's not going after people who aren't doing annoying things

she's just being very vocal about it and doesn't care and it's like she doesn't have to play the game or she doesn't want to and i think it's cool that she's like no i'm not going to totally i And I understand to some degree of frustration about, like, it's our time and attention and money that makes somebody this level of famous. It's also their talent and their other things. So there's a part of me that understands where parasocial relationships develop, not to say that I think they're good or like should be continued. But I agree with you. I think that there is, I think it's insane to expect that a star would not have boundaries. or that her boundaries would be the boundaries that you want them to be.

Like that's crazy. But it is, I think I don't, I think we don't culturally understand yet. And I don't know if we'll ever understand how to untangle that knot of sort of like the parisocialness of like, well, in a way, we've been the ones who lift you up. But also that doesn't mean that we're entitled to everything we want from you. I think that's really like complicated on a human level to like internalize. And on that parisocial note, Aaron Lee Carr, who is a really wonderful documentarian,

just released another one on Hulu called Fanatical. And it's all about the catfishing of Sarah and Tegan. But specifically, Teigen was the one who was actively catfished. It is insane. It takes a really good, comprehensive look at parisocial relationships

because like to give a very short gist Tara Sarah and Teigen were they were kind of like indie folk at the beginning like just a more indie genre too and so then they're even building relationships with the fans that like you do build at the beginning where like you are closer to them

then they they keep progressively getting more and more successful and more more well known and kind of when they hit like mid-level fame someone what then they didn't know that this was happening at the time you hear it throughout the dock but basically someone like hacked into where it was it's it's an older apple technology so I can't remember the name of it but where they were keeping like stuff on the server so someone basically got access to even like some of their demos that they had been working on and then like all kinds of of information that had been on their computer and started having digital relationships,

catfishing, other fans, pretending like she was Tegan and would sometimes be like, I want you to hear this new song I've been working on, and they would like pull a demo off of their computer because they were still connected to it. So these fans had every reason to think that it was real. And this person developed close, intimate relationships that like ruined these people's lives. and their ability to trust people. Yeah. Yikes. Yeah, it is the downside.

And I love, I love Aaron Lee Carr's documentaries almost every single time, I think. She just does a really good job of telling stories. But this story is like, you want to stay aware of it, like, that it could happen to someone like that. And then now there are fans who are like, I can't even listen to her music even anymore, even though she didn't do it to me. Like, it's so wild. That is wild. Yeah.

Okay. I definitely want to check that out. I'm a fan of Aaron Lee Carr's work. She also did the documentary on Gypsy Rose Blanchard years ago. This was kind of before the, like, big resurgence in Gypsy Rose Blanchard's popularity, which I also will never find not bizarre. But like. It's bizarre. And then there's me who's like, it was her only way out.

Oh. Oh. I have a lot of empathy for her. What I find odd is the coming out of jail and people. Yeah, and people being like, let's go on dancing with the stars. Like, you know, she was in an impossible situation, totally being victimized by her mother, who certainly was not a well woman either, but doesn't mean you get a pass for doing the things she did to her daughter.

But it's like it's one of those really thorny ones of like, you know, and so I don't totally blame her for her actions. But I don't know that I'm like, let's put her on. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I just out for her. Yeah, it's on.

But intensive therapy, maybe. We should be like funding that for her. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she's a great documentary in Erin Lee Carr. She also did like this one crazy documentary called, I think, thought crimes about a police detective.

I think it was a. police detective who wanted to had like deep this is such a weird conversation. I wasn't planning to talk about this, but now we're here. Had like a deep fantasy about eating somebody

about being a cannibal. And I think like went if I'm remembering this correctly and he like stalked a victim and but didn't end up doing anything. But then he yeah, the case of the cannibal cop. And he. he was charged with kidnapping and eating women, but he did not actually commit the crime.

He was just like ramping up to commit the crime. So the documentary is sort of like how, what's our justice system supposed to look like about somebody who has not yet committed this violent crime, but like seems to intend to? Oh, my God. It's a real thorny, like, mess. I haven't seen that one. I thought she did one. I think it's called like, I love you.

now die now die yes yes yes yeah about the this teenage girl who like had a really intense mostly texting relationship with a guy she went to school with and they were both I mean she was obviously disturbed there's a lot going on yeah and basically he was super depressed to the point that he mentioned committing suicide and she kind of talked him into it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that case and I remember that documentary. Yeah.

And yeah, it's an interesting one too about like where does this be where and when does this become a crime, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I know it's, yep, that's another wild one. So documentaries have lots of scandal too. Oh, for sure. For sure they do.

which kind of leads to the next one I had on my list, which was, okay, this is a hard book to recommend. It is racist. It's misogynistic. It's problematic in all the ways. But it's a ride. It's a ride. It's called Hollywood Babylon by Kenneth Enger. And it's from, I don't know if it's from the 60s or the 70s, but it basically is a compendium of like the most tasteless gossip about all the golden age stars.

of Hollywood. And it is not based in fact. It's like it's billed as nonfiction, but it's definitely not. And it like he, I think was sued for liable at a certain point. But what I find so interesting about it. I mean, first of all, it's just a juicy read. Some of some of the things are closer to true than others. Like there are some that are just sort of like what ifs or this like, here's the rumor about this one. And then there's other things where it's like for sure that didn't happen. like I don't think Clarabot had sex with a dog, just putting that out there, which is something he says. Okay. But like it's what I find so fascinating about it from like a creative perspective is like it's a real interesting look at like the myth making machine of Hollywood.

And like why are we so interested in believing the worst possible things about these people? And like why are we so interested in believing that somebody can be like this idolized person and also be like this horrific other other underbellal. to them. And like there's something really human about that. And if you're willing to like look at it with that eye with a critical eye, but that's also like not necessarily invested in this is the truth, it's a really fun read. It's pretty crazy. Yes. When I saw this cover, I was like, oh yeah, I've seen some TikToks about this. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I'm sure they're like, what the hell? And you're like, yeah, it's, it's pretty bad. Well, the, like you're saying, though, it's like it is a myth-making machine. Like, we know that.

So then that's probably what's so fascinating about trying to, like, figure it out or figure out what's real and what's not. Also, when you're saying it, it started to make me wonder, I wonder if for some people, they, like, need to assume that those people did bad things to get there because they can be like, well, that's why I can't do that. I just can't do bad things. I wonder if that's, like, part of it. Oh, I think for sure. I think for sure there's, like, a healthy dose of. envy, jealousy, and like sort of like, oh, these people aren't like real people type thing. You know, and like I have more of a moral center, which I think is probably like what I think is

interesting is like I think we know in some ways that probably is true about many celebrities, but like also Hollywood Babylon takes it to such an absurd level that you're like what? And like just so tasteless. It really is tasteless. That's the best word for that book. So just know that I'm recommending it with an aster. risk. Like, if that's your vibe, like, go in to go for it. But if that's not your vibe, just pretend I didn't say anything. Yeah.

Just listen to us talk about other theories. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I'm intrigued. 305 pages. And they go fast because it's really kind of just like, it's like little vignettes and it's a lot of pictures. And so it'll be like Clara Bow. And then it'll be like a two page write up about like, here's all the gossip about Clara Bow. And then you're on to the next star and it just goes through like all the scandals of hollywood which is really crazy and hers she was factually institutionalized by the end she i believe so yeah yeah yes i think you're right and i think she had like some deep depression i know she saw like a childhood friend die when she was little like yeah she was

known for as a silent silent star she could cry on command and it was essentially like like if you've seen that movie baby barbara bob plus a few other people but that's kind of who it's based on it She has this, like, had this extraordinarily expressive face. And people would be like, what's your trick? And she'd be like, I just think of my childhood. And then I can, like, cry, which is like so sad and dark. Yeah. That's sad.

Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. I know she was a little bit of the inspiration for tortured poet's apartment. Oh, interesting. I didn't. Named after her.

Yeah. Yeah. The original. Yeah. The theory of, like, just being picked. apart, picked apart until you end up in a mental institution. And then the mental institution was the theme of tortured poets department. So I learned all. I learned even more about Claire Bowie recently. Taylor Swift, a scholar of old Hollywood. Who knew? I guess everybody but me.

Oh, yeah. Even in reputation, she has a line about, you can be the Burton to my tailor. Ah, nice. So she, yeah, she really is. She has these little things. Those were the things that then made me a more voracious fan as I was like, oh, there's like some other things hiding in these lyrics, even though they're like pop songs. Totally. So, yeah.

Yep. She's, she's been making them. My next one is like not totally adjacent at all, so I don't have a segue. Okay. But I was thinking of it. about missing white woman by Kelly Garrett because it like also when I was researching for this I was like okay I know what scandal means but like literally looked up the definition too so that I could like narrow in on what I was picking and it was talking about like morally or ethically

questionable events that kind that that typically end up capturing the public's eye and I was like okay yeah that really I knew that was the definition but it helped me think about books more broadly that way of like things where it catches the public attention. And that was one that I've read most recently because basically this black woman Brianna, Brie, either one, she's essentially on like a weekend vacation with her new boyfriend and they've been there a couple days. And the last day that she's there, she comes down the, well, she wakes up and he's not in bed. She walks down the stairs. and there is a dead white woman at the bottom of the stairs.

And even worse, she's this woman that like missing white woman syndrome has happened. And everyone online is obsessed with being armchair sleuths and figuring out what happened to her. And I loved how Kelly worked TikTok into this one. Like not only like worked it in, but like you can tell she actually scrolled TikTok for a while because like it feels like the TikTok culture. And I also loved this book so much. Like I was glued to the pages, but the way she handles like how scandalous it becomes and then how like everyone thinks they can solve it is very thought provoking. I love that.

I have missing white women. I haven't read it yet, but I love Kelly Garrett's work. And like it is such an interesting and ripe thing, especially like the whole that feels very Gabby Petito, you know, where everybody was like had an opinion and like was very public about it and like the problematic thing of like a white woman goes missing in the world stops and like yeah it sounds very rich and juicy it's really it's both is what's kind of fun is like it's that and it's like very fast pace and like very much a thriller i like i loved that my attention span is just shorter and shorter and i've seen my fast ones totally totally yeah yeah it's really good

Kelly Garrett can do no wrong, truly. She is amazing. Okay, so I have kind of two matching ones for my next one that are two takes on the same real-life scandal, which is the two Mrs. Grenvilles by Dominic Dunn, who is an interesting figure himself. He's the brother-in-law of Joan Didion. His daughter was an actress who worked in Poltergeist, who was murdered, strangled by her boyfriend on her front yard in the middle of the day.

in Hollywood and he received six years for that. He was abusive and a piece of shit. Anyway, so that is a separate scandal that I clearly have very strong feelings about. But the two Mrs. Grenvilles and also the short story, Lakot Basque and answered prayers by Truman Capote, which was also kind of the impetus for that show, The Swans, the Ryan Murphy one, the American, like the feud, the swans that he just did. So it's about like basically these like this, Lecote Basque is a short story about a writer who's Truman Capote basically,

who goes to lunch with this high society woman and they're at this lunch at Lakot Basque, this restaurant in New York and she's telling him all the gossip about everybody around him. And so he codes it by putting in code names, but he basically aired the dirty laundry of all of his friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they were not pleased.

And to say the least. But there's one woman in particular, Anne Woodward, who, was kind of known, she was very beautiful, kind of known as a social climber, like all of the ways that she's talked about historically and in these books tend to be pretty misogynistic. So I might be using that language too, but that's not necessarily what I, I am not a scholar of it besides kind of these works. But this is also the story of the two Mrs. Grenvilles is about the scandal of Anne Woodward, who basically was, I think a young woman from Kansas, very beautiful, kind of winds up marrying like a high society man with a lot of money, allegedly a faked pregnancy situation. Who knows if that's true or not?

The marriage is not super happy or successful and he's eventually going to leave her. And one night, in the middle of the night, she gets up, thinks she hears a burglar and shoots her husband dead. And so there was always this sort of question of, did she kill him in cold blood? his family rallies around her, which is interesting. Like a led, so and Truman Capote kind of says as I think in La Cote Basque, that it's like they want, they're more interested in avoiding a scandal about it than they are and like finding out the truth. But or it could be that she legitimately thought he was a burglar.

I don't know. But what I do know is Truman Capote publishes the short story. Dominic Dunn publishes this book. right before this Truman Capote's book answered prayers is scheduled to come out. Ann Woodward kills herself. And people kind of suspect that it may have been at least partially influenced by the coming publication of this thing. So that is like, yeah, it's a very rich text. Definitely if you're interested, do like a better deep dive than just me telling you about this.

Because like there's way more nuance and context to all of that. But that's kind of the short podcasty. version of that and that these two books, one book and one short story kind of center on the scandal. Yeah, it's not that long. But it's a great, I mean, Truman Capote is a great writer, which we could talk about his relationship to the truth was interesting and not always very ethical. But like, he was a great writer.

Interesting. Yeah, this feels like, this literally feels like housewives drama, this Lakot Basque. Like, oh, it's like, who did you, like someone like? all the arguments of like you gave it to daily mail and she's like no I did it totally totally it's it's very um it is like the original mid-century real housewives kind of drama it's like I changed the names exactly exactly I changed the names but I air the most intimate details of any scandal that my best friends have told me in confidence like really Truman Capote I think was pretty self-sabotaging in a lot of ways um and that seems like one of them

that's messy yeah you know good for them though still being that messy without social media in the 70s like that's true I know the social media on Truman Capote's part was just like let me publish this in all the major outlets exactly not like no sub tweeting no like let do moi blind items it's like let me stick it out there and like the New Yorker you know yeah that's amazing yeah yeah yep damn well yeah mine's just completely different uh but it was making me think of a book that i i loved and the author reached out to me about it um and i hadn't heard about it and i read it and i loved it so much it's called the nightside by m m deluca and so from a sense of scandal with this one. And speaking, there we go, speaking of a questionable relationship with the truth,

Ruby Carlson grew up with her single mom in Montana. But basically, her mom was a con artist who pretended to be psychic or anything more, like anything people would kind of ask of a psychic. She's like, oh, yeah, I can do that. And started like really heavily grifting that. whole town and like they all believed her and um so basically once our main character turned 18 she left as soon as she could because she didn't want to be there um 20 years later she gets a call and they say her mom's missing and they're presuming that she's dead actually because she's been gone for so long so she goes home to essentially settle affairs um but she's also like is my mom's scheming again. So we get the backstory of like what it grows up with a parent who's like

involving you and their manipulation. Yeah. She, because she's reliving reliving her memories there. And then also the scandal of someone actually like really taking so much money from this like sweet, small community of people. Then there's the scandal of is she even dead or is she scheming again? And it was so good. And like the final. 20% is actually really action-packed too. But I feel like it's like another, this one's like kind of like another perspective where you're not in the scandal, but you get swept up into it anyway and you're like, cool. Totally.

Totally. That sounds amazing. And I just wrote that down because I also have a friend who's writing a book about a grifting fortune teller. And I'm like, oh, I should pass this along to her. That sounds wonderful. I really loved it. More people read it.

And I think the cover is very cool, too. The cover is cool. I just looked it up. And also, like, what a terrifically heartbreaking thing to be like, is my mom dead? Or is she lying to everybody as part of a scheme? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a unique life when you question your mom's motives all the time. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Oh. That's being very much. my next one yeah exactly we don't need segways for this podcast I think we're just we're good um my next one actually my next two are books that are coming out in 2025 um I have yes I have been

screaming about the favorites by Lane Fargo which I think everybody knows and honestly it's going to be a big book you're going to see it everywhere so um but it is basically a retelling of Wuthering Heights through Ice Dancing. And it has a very, like a format reminiscent of Daisy Jones and the Six where part of it is told, well, I guess this part isn't, but part of it is told through a documentary, like lens of interviewing people. But Lane, who is a friend of mine, I know kind of like Doug from like the scandals of Tanya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan, which I think we're all pretty aware of at this point, but was essentially like Tanya Harding was the power skater, Nancy Kerrigan was very artistic and kind of more the image of what skating

wanted to be. And they had this rivalry and going up into the Olympics where they were both going to compete Harding's husband and her bodyguard made a plan to hire somebody to like basically kneecap whack Nancy Kerrigan. And then it blows back. And so there's always been the question of like how deeply was Tanya Harding involved. So elements of that play into the favorites. There's another, there's plenty of scandals that Lane drew from. And she didn't draw from this, but yeah, if you're on ice dance TikTok, the ice dance world is currently being rocked by some sexual assault allegations, which kind of grows out of the fact that there are not enough male ice dancers in the sport. So it becomes very competitive to poach them in different ways.

And a lot of really bad behavior is forgive the pun, skated over because they're such like hot commodities. And so there are aspects of that that play in Delane's book too. But I know that what's happening now is happening too late for her to like directly have written it in. But like go look that up on dance, ice dance TikTok if you're interested. Yeah. And then there's another, I believe she puts her in the dedication. But Syria Bonalie was the French skater who was French and she was black. And she was black. the sport of ice dancing and ice skating is historically pretty racist. And so she didn't always get the marks.

And I think something happened where she either knew she was going to get DQed or knew she wasn't going to get the marks that she wanted at the Olympics. So she did this move that was her signature back flip move that had been like outlawed. So she basically had this program, this really infamous program where she was like, fuck it, I'm skating for me. And like does all the moves that are like she's not allowed to do because she just was like, I know I'm not going to get the marks anyway, so I might as well, like, do what I want to do. And I, like, that I think is, like, also a very direct influence on the favorites, which is a great

book. And I think people are going to be really excited about it. I'm even more excited about it. Yeah. Tanya Harding, that whole story is very fascinating to me. It really is. And, like, I love the, I love the podcast you're wrong about, which, like, if you're looking for scandals, revisited, that's a good one.

But they have a whole episode. Yes. they have a whole episode. They actually have like a whole string of episodes about like maligned women of the 90s where we kind of revisit public figures of the 90s and be like how would we look at it from this lens today, which is sort of like the interesting part of the Tanya Harding of it all where it's like she was getting docked for being considered quote unquote white trash like is part of what that was that she didn't present well enough. And the podcast really goes into it, which I think the podcast came out before or at least Sarah Marshall's reporting on it came out before I Tonya. And I think was actually an influence on the. film i tanya that i loves that movie me too me too i did yeah it's great all right you're wrong about but i remember when we started kind of doing that with monica loinsky finally whenever it was like let's have a modern conversation about this let's look at the fact that she was like a 22 year old intern and he was the president of the united states and and i think states and and i I think what's interesting about the Monica Lewinsky of it all, too, is that to this day, she kind of, and so I want to take her at her word of it. She's kind of like, he didn't coerce me into it. I wanted to do it, which I think makes it a little bit more complicated, but it's also not like the amount of like hate and stuff she got online was so disproportionate, considering that he was the married authority figure with power. And instead we were like, let's blame the 22 year old intern. I don't know about that.

I agree. It just doesn't, yeah, it doesn't, the hate doesn't go equally both ways. Right. By even a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And like they, I think they actually do, did do a Monica Lewinsky episode on You're Wrong About 2 and like some of the stuff that your dogs have feelings. They're like, Monica. They do. I mean, some of the like, coercive, like, some of the stuff he was saying to her in her account and like what we kind of know about it was so unbelievably like gross dude too like is really just hard to look at yeah yeah it's icky yeah hi bruce bruce you against men abusing their power yeah bruce is like he's against it bruce is an ally he will protect us yes bruce yeah you don't like that this it's how he's talking about

talking you right here. You think someone's in the hallway? Oh, no. Sorry, buddy. Oh, that's funny. Well, he had to make an appearance. He's known for making his, yeah, you're okay. I know you want to bark, but you don't need to. So my next one is just another left turn into On the Surface by Rachel McGuire. Also had them on the podcast. So again, if you, it's a writing duo. So if anyone wants to listen, they can. But this one is a really fun concept where Sawyer Stone and Danny Fox are these YouTube channel star, wannabe stars.

It's, they're fledgling YouTube channel is what it calls it. But it's basically they sail the world, like they live, they live on their boat. and just go from doc to doc and make YouTube videos about like, oh, this is us being cute as a couple, like all of that fun stuff. So they're basically stuck in Exuma because their main form of money was crypto and it bottomed out. So they're kind of like stuck in this one spot in Exuma. they're hanging out with like the other cruisers the other people that are fellow cruisers and um dny disappears one night so it's basically they all have a party together on one of the other ships um and in the

morning no one can find where she is and everyone's like hmm what was going on but then some pre-scheduled videos start posting on the channel oh snap she was MIA and it starts painting a very different picture of their relationship that was not being shown previously on their YouTube channel. So this one scandal enough right there. We've got YouTube scandal going on basically. But then two, they also incorporate the fact that because she's a white woman, all these amateur sleuths start trying to get involved. So they also follow that and actually show like how that's not always helpful. Yeah.

Like that it really can be problematic and which sometimes like I think that's why I don't talk about a lot of true crime in general because I'm just like, I don't know. And it's like there are some real facts and like who am I to. Totally. Talk about it. I think it's why I'm more comfortable talking about fiction like this. So they end up examining even how scandalous the public is with stuff like this. but also there are just some scandalous,

unlikable characters in this story. Oh, that's really intriguing to me. Yeah. And I think like YouTube stardom is obviously fascinating to me. I have to be niche YouTube famous. But it won't be from traveling. Not me.

Fair. Fair. That reminds me of a true crime book I read years ago called And the Sea Will Tell by Vincent's. Vincent Bugliosi, who was, he was a prosecutor. He prosecuted Charles Manson in the Manson cases, but he wrote a bunch of books about like the cases that he worked on. And there was this case, and this he will tell, where this woman goes with her new husband sailing across the Pacific, and they land on this tiny Pacific atoll. And they basically, they find a skull. And it's like a true

story. And like it in winds this whole history. And I don't know, when you were talking about it, made me wonder if any part of that had played into this because I think there was something like that where it was like, oh, they'd actually like met up with this other couple on this island and then somebody went missing and like, I don't know, it's really interesting. So yeah. It was just a really very fun book and it has a wild ending and I will, I'm going to do a little promo for them. In November, they're re-releasing or it's getting a paperback release, I think is what it was. So they are, they have a bonus chapter that you can read if you buy the book in November. And I got to read it early and it's also very good. That's really cool. That's really cool. What a cool promo idea. That's awesome.

I thought it was really smart too. Like they were like, well, and it's also because the ending is polarizing. And so then they kind of like gave some more. And I was okay with the ending. But then I loved this new one they added on too as well. So that's a nice. amazing. Okay. Not to say that like every time you say somebody makes me think of a different book, but do you know the book, Picnic at Hanging Rock by Joan Lindsay? Okay. So this is an older book and it has it's about, it's a story and they made it into a movie which was I know very influential on like Sophia Coppola and a lot of people. It's this very kind of dreamy thing. It's about these Australian school girls who in the beginning of the 1900s go on a picnic at this place

called Hanging Rock. And like four of them and a teacher go on like a little expedition somewhere else and like three of the girls go missing. And like the teacher, I think comes back. Or maybe the teacher, one girl comes back, but like can't tell them where the other girls are. And the whole book is the story of their disappearance. But what's interesting is that the book ends without you ever finding out what actually happened to the girls.

But the author wrote one chapter that explained exactly what it was and said it couldn't be released until like 15 years after her death. And then it was. And so people finally like read it and were like, that's what happened. Is that crazy? Yeah. It's kind of badass. Yeah. That is like some, yeah, it's like some OG. I don't know what you call it. It's made me think of like, hey, you can get bonus content with video games basically. Totally. Totally. That's cool. But like, locking it away until you're dead. You're like, nope, everyone can find out later. I think and like to me as like a writer too I'm like was like I don't want to deal with the fallout of people not liking my ending

so I have to be like really dead before you can release it that's a really funny perspective I love that oh Bruce Wayne oh no Bruce Wayne why are you both looking at me like that now They're like, we're having big feelings. I know.

They're like, we're stressed out too. Pibbles. Bruce Wayne. Can you just give me a little bit more time? Well, I thought Tyler was going to walk them. This is part of what's happening. I understand. If we need to wrap it up, we can do that.

We probably have to, unfortunately. But we did. I like took a lit. I wrote down everything we talked about because I make all the links. We talked about plenty of scandals. We really did. We really did. And I have a few I was going to share about the book, The Hurricane Blonde, but we can save that for another time too.

No, please do it. He can stay here. Talk about the hurricane one. So these are spoilerific. But I'm going to share the real life scandals that inspired parts of my book, The Hurricane Blonde, even though I won't tell you how they play into the book. I'll just tell you what the scandals are. So I mentioned earlier, Clark Gable, not a great guy. So there is this whole episode where Clark Gable was working on a movie with a young actress Loretta Young, who was known to be very Catholic, very prim.

And Clark Gable was a lady's man. And so after the movie was over, I think they were on a train together traveling somewhere and he date raped her. And she kind of was so unsure about the situation. She kind of didn't understand what had happened to her, except that she didn't really want it. overpowered her. And she finds out later that she's pregnant and is like, I can't keep the baby. I can't be an unwed mother. So she hides her pregnancy from everyone. People start to like wonder about what's going on because she's not seen in like press for the movies. So she does this like really famous interview from her bed where she like covers herself in pillows and it's like,

I'm definitely not pregnant. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So she gives birth to the baby, gives it up, puts it into like an orphanage. And then like two years later makes a big public show of adopting this baby being like, I want to do something charitable. So I'm adopting a child. But in fact, it was her own child that she was adopting. And kind of wouldn't talk about what had happened to her was so traumatized by it. The girl grows up and starts to develop like Clark Gable had very distinctive ears that were kind of like popped out of the side of his head.

And so the girl starts to have these ears so she knows that people are going to like wonder. so she has the daughter's ears surgically pinned back so that she doesn't look as much like Clark Gable. It's a really crazy story. And doesn't like, and so she and the daughter have like a bad relationship unsurprisingly. Yeah. Yeah. And so years later, I think she's like, I think Loretta Young is like in her 80s. She was watching something with her granddaughter and they started talking about date rape.

And she finally was like, that's what happened to me. Like she finally had the words to kind of like discuss like that's what had happened. So this doesn't, the story doesn't really come out until Clark Gable's, dead and I think maybe even Loretta Young was dead. But that, the idea of like covering up your child being born in this way is something that played into my book. And then another Hollywood scandal that influenced my book was I had this professor in grad school.

I'm about to get into some real hearsay territory. I had this professor in grad school who used to write for the Hollywood reporter. So he would always have these crazy stories that he would share with us. And I never knew if they were true, but they were amazing stories. And he had this story that like, so Polanski very famously had sex with an underage girl after giving her quailudes and basically being like, I'm going to make you a star. She was like 13 or 14 at the time, pretty awful. Gets in trouble for it. Basically flees the country rather than like deal with the sentencing.

So there's that. My professor had this story that he had seen personally. that Polanski was not the only one involved in that, that I feel like I shouldn't, a famous actor who was in The Shining was also involved with younger women, but because he was dating Angelica Houston at the time, and the Houston's were a very famous family.

Her father was a very famous director. They kind of were like, you're going to go work on a movie in Mexico. It's never going to get brought up. Like, we don't want this to be personally embarrassing to her because it would be if it can. came out that you were cheating on her with teenagers. So we're just going to kind of hush this up. And I don't know if that's true. This is all alleged. This is all hearsay. I'm not here to get

sued. I have no idea. That didn't matter to me as a writer, whether or not it was true. What mattered to me was the idea of somebody covering up something so terrible basically to like save face in fame. And so I did use that as a jumping off point for a part of my book as well. Yes. And so I haven't released it yet. I just. recorded a book hall, but I have the Hurricane Blonde back there now. Oh, thank you. Amazing. I got a bunch of book gift cards for my birthday, and so I'm filling in my shelves with people

who've been on episodes. Aw, Kate, that really means a lot to me. Thank you. So it's chilling right there, and eventually that content will come out. I need to edit it now, but it's always fun editing yourself. Totally, totally. All right. Oh, my gosh.

Bruce loves the Hurricane Blonde is what he just told me. That's what he's being so vocal about. He's like, adapt it. Make it into a show. Let's go. But yeah, your book definitely has lots of scandal too, which is definitely how we get so connected. Yes, for sure. Lots of scandals, lots of Hollywood gossip in there for sure.

Yeah. I can't tell. He's being quiet. I thought he was about to really, really bark. Um, so yeah, if you love scandals as much as us, you know, both of your books. Lady upstairs is the same way too. There's plenty of scandal in there for sure. I like scandals.

I just, I am too. It just makes it even, it's kind of like, because sometimes there are like conspiracies happening beneath them is probably what's so fun about it. Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, everyone has tons of scandal content to consume now. It's multimedia. Yes, a lot of documents. We mentioned a lot of things. Yeah, we did.