Bookwild - Silicon Valley, Body Horror and Shadowy Visions: Matt Casamassina's Degenerate

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

This week, I talk with Matt Casamassina about his genre-bending sci-fi-horror-thriller Degenerate. He shares his unique approach to audiobook production, how reading Stephen King as a kid influenced his writing, and how one of his co-workers inspired the story.Degenerate by Matt CasamassinaMason Kowalski, a twenty-four year-old copywriter for a San Mateo startup, is on the verge of a nervous breakdown when he inexplicably suffers widespread vision loss in one eye. The doctors say it’s macular degeneration triggered by overwhelming stress, but he wonders if it’s something more, especially when the shadows in his peripheral vision begin to take shape and whisper wonderful and horrible things to him. Is it madness or destiny? The answer could destroy everything and everyone he holds dear. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Matt Casamacina about his new book Degenerate. It kind of mixes like speculative fiction elements with horror, and it takes place in Silicon Valley, it has dark comedy, it has a little bit of everything for you. This is the synopsis. Mason Kowalski, a 24-year-old copywriter for a San Mateo startup, is on the verge of a nervous breakdown when he inexplicably suffers widespread vision loss in one eye. The doctors say it's macular degeneration triggered,

by overwhelming stress, but he wonders if it's something more, especially when the shadows and his peripheral vision begin to take shape and whisper wonderful and horrible things to him. Is it madness or destiny? The answer could destroy everything and everyone he holds dear. Journey into the absurd beating heart of Silicon Valley as Mason and his lovable friends scramble to stop a demented serial killer from murdering more children. Like I said, this one has a little bit of everything. We have action. We have some serious horror. elements definitely some body horror elements so not for the faint of heart just so you know and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to the audiobook and part of why I even found this one was I saw it on

Netgalley and then I saw an article that Matt posted about why he loves audiobook so much and the production that went into creating this one so the production is fantastic he kind of talks about there are audio flourishes in it even though you wouldn't call this like a graphic or audiobook as we know them. And so you're still getting the whole story told to you. There's just some like extra sounds added in. But you can hear more about this from Matt. So I am super excited to talk with you about degenerate and our shared love of audiobooks also. But I do always want to ask before we dive into the books like what your journey was to writing fiction. I know you also write as a, wrote as a journalist or still write as a journalist, but what, what was your

writing journey been like? Yeah, I was always into fiction. So I grew up reading, you know, I was raised on Stephen King and the likes of books like that, right? And so when I was a kid, it was the stand, it was the dark tower, it was books like that that really kind of raised me. Yeah. And so I have a special place for all of that in my, in my heart. But I was going to school, of all things to study criminal justice. I kind of wanted to, I think I'd seen point break, and I wanted to be an FBI agent or something like Johnny, Utah. And instead, I was also a big video game.

You're a huge, just big, really into video games. And so I was applying to various websites and magazines back in the day, and this was around 96, it was a while ago. And, yeah, I just got a lucky break. And next thing you knew, I was part of a company called IGN. It was an upstart. Yeah. We were off to the races.

But at the entire time I was doing that and writing about video games, I was always kind of fiddling in the background and trying to write stories. And they were mostly terrible. And, you know, I think, you know, when you're an early writer, you try to, I think you try to be extreme. And you try to, you know, you try to like be provocative in ways that are not realistic. And so I was really going for it. It was very gory. It was out of control. and I read some of my earlier work.

It was just not great. I don't know that my later work is any better, but it certainly feels better than me. I mean, I think so. I guess I can't compare, but. Well, thank you. So anyway, that was that was kind of happening in tandem. And then when I finally just sat down at one point, it was like, I'm going to write a novel. I'm going to be one of these people who says, you know, they're going to do it and then they never do it. And just kind of stayed dedicated over a year or so and not just.

one out. That's awesome. Once you get one, then you're like, well, I can do another one. You're like, I can do it at least. I can finish one. Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. Do you, do you plot it out before you dive into it? Do you kind of follow your heart or a hybrid of the two? Yeah. You know, I didn't mention I was raised on King. King is very outspoken about plotting and he's very anti-plotting. And so I've sort of followed the rule of thumb of King. And so I don't plot. What I do is I have a general idea. So I'm writing a book now and the general ideas.

I kind of want to do a zombie story. And I want it to be in a certain way. And I have like three scenes in my head that I know have to happen at some point. But that's it. And then my fingers will either get me there or they won't. And yeah. And that's kind of how it goes. Yeah.

And with your characters, because I love it's kind of a large cast of characters. not totally large, indigent, right? But I felt connected to a bunch of them, even not just the main character. So do you also kind of get to know them while you're writing, or do you kind of know the characters when you get going? I do. I have, it depends, right? I think it's a combination of the two. What I try to do is when I'm writing any of my novels. I don't, I'm very against having, you know, the non-gray character. I like the gray characters that are the kind of good and bad at the same time. And they have many faults.

I think all my characters are very, they have lots of faults or at least peculiarities about them that a lot of people would look at and say, man, that's weird. And so I generally sit down and I start with just one character and I say, oh, he's going to be in this situation or she's going to be in this situation. Let's see what happens. And then after a little while and you go and you think about it and you take walks and what have, what have you, you come up with other characters. And I might actually, that's the one thing I will do.

I might plot out a character board of some kind where I say, oh, Kevin Mason, for instance, in Degenerate is going to have these three qualities. And this is his background, et cetera. Yeah. And I'll keep that in the background somewhere and I'll refer to it just as a reminder to myself. Yeah. That makes sense. So it sounds like you read a lot of horror growing up.

And then this one definitely falls in that. I don't know if your other two completely fall into horror, but, um, no. Okay. So is there, is there something that kind of drew you to the genres that you do write? Yeah, it's what you grew up reading. So I grew up reading a lot of horror, a lot of sci-fi. And so those are near and dear to my heart. Yeah.

And I've always, my first book is, is a post-apocalyptic, you know, into the world survival story. Okay. And I got that out of my system. That's the one I wanted to write forever. And the second book is near future sci-fi set here in the Bay Area. And you'll probably notice, having read Degenerate, that Silicon Valley becomes kind of a character onto its own in my books. Because it's so ridiculous out here. And so the same is true in sophistication.

So I make fun of Silicon Valley a lot because it is. It needs to be made fun of. It does need to be made fun of. Yeah. And so I kind of waffle between sci-fi and horror. Yeah. And degenerate, I really wanted a horror book that was hard to classify. It is. When I've tried to explain it, I'm like, there's like dark comedy.

It's, you could almost say speculative fiction, maybe in a little bit of it. There's definitely like action. There's definitely horror. There's so much. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I tried to squeeze a lot in. And I kind of wanted to do a little bit of a twist, you know, and kind of go one

way and then pull back into another direction. So hopefully, hopefully you got that and it was at least semi-successful. Yeah. When you were reading it. Totally. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. The main character, Mason, so he is also a tech writer.

So what I'm assuming, re-pulling from some of like your own experiences for creating his character. Yeah. And so this is directly based on a friend of mine. His name is Juan Castro. And we worked at Apple together. Yeah. And Juan worked for me at Apple, and he would get severe anxiety just about the job and other things.

And he was losing vision in one of his eyes. And so it's all true. And I asked one if I could, you know, hey, use you as inspiration for my next story. And he said, yeah, go for it. And so that was, that's what started this book. So it really does. Like anxiety can really, I mean, I know it can probably affect all of your body, but you can really kind of lose your vision. way. Yeah, yeah. I didn't, I had no idea about that either, but he was legit losing vision in one eye.

He took some time off and started to heal up. He had other, I think, issues. He's always had a little bit of kind of issues with his eye, but that really compounded it. Totally. Yeah. Stress is not very helpful. It's not. No, no, no. And, you know, obviously being from Apple incorporated a lot of that. And so some of the absurdities of what's going on here. Yes. You'll find in the book. And you probably will think to yourself there's no way that's happening but in fact it's based on reality that's what i um it was reminding me of a book i read which it doesn't have any horror but dead money by uh jacob cur and it was reminding me of that because there were some people who were like this is outrageous like he's being hyperbolic and i think he even said when i talked to him he's like there's really

not much hyperbole here no it's just wild i'd say the same is true and i would say the same is true for me you know yeah you've got there's a scene where two people are riding on scooters that's what i was going to bring up because it's not much of a spoiler right and they're talking with one another uh electric scooters in like an apple park scenario that's based on my real life i figure it sounded so specific yeah yeah it's just yeah it's wild like they're like they're gonna go on a walk together but they're basically like kind of on segway side by side and talking with headphones which And everyone around them is, you know, kayaking and, you know, lounging out and picnicking and everything else. All true.

Yeah. It's crazy. I know. It's a whole other type of workplace that I don't think a lot of people, like, know how much, like, the, even like, movie depictions are so. Or it was making me think of the show Silicon Valley, too, which, like, one of my favorite shows of all time. It's great show. So funny. Like, I need that kind of.

I mean, clearly, I think it was Mike Judge that show, right? Uh-huh. I can't, and he was an engineer in Silicon Valley, so, like, totally gets it. Yeah, it's wild. I feel like it is one of those things that's, like, a setting that is, that works so well as a character because there's, like, so much lore around it, even if you're just kind of in the, in that area, not even always, like, working there, basically is what I was trying to say. Totally agree.

And there's a, you know, there's, let's be real, there's a part of the country that just hates it. Oh, yeah. You know, if you bring up, I'm from California. I know when I go to Texas to visit my wife's family, they probably aren't happy that I'm from California. You know, there's just a general dislike of Californians. And then on top of that, there's a bubble world in Silicon Valley. It's even more, it's like extreme California. Yeah.

So, yeah. So I kind of played into that. Yeah, those subcultures are work. Yeah, they just like work well for stories too. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it sounds like your inspiration for the story. was initially your friend, like losing vision in one of his eyes as well.

Was there anything else that like inspired the, I'm trying to talk around, spoilers, but like him starting to see stuff and like then trying to figure that out. Was there anything else that like inspired that part? I don't know. Not necessarily. I mean, I think it's going to be compared or referenced to some lovecraftian things, right? because of the nature of things he sees. And I think there was definitely some inspiration there.

I don't know, not necessarily directly. I wasn't trying to create those particular monsters. But I wanted to play in that realm a little bit. Yeah. And I needed an element of horror that would be disturbing to people, hopefully. And it could also be visceral and visual and not just shadows in the periphery, which that's what kind of begins at. Right.

Yeah. So it is. It is very visceral. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I mean, there are some scenes in that book for sure. I saw a review from somebody. I was about to say the same thing.

So we might be thinking the same one. Maybe not. The one I'm thinking of is someone said, you know, I think it was Kirkus. Or maybe it was publishers a week. They were like, yeah, you know, the book has some scatological humor. Yep, you don't often see that. Yes. I saw one that was like, it was like, just so, you know, though this book isn't for

the faint of heart, I'd be like listening along and all of a sudden I'd be like, did I hear that right? Is this what's happening? And I had a couple of moments like that where I was like, did I zone out? Like I feel like this escalated really quickly, but I don't think I zoned out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was some of the body horror was reminding me for whatever reason of like the Matrix. Like some of some of it was reminding me of some of the scenes there. Yeah. I don't know where that came. I mean, I definitely want to, you know, I'm, you're trying to stand out and there's a lot of noise out there, a lot of books. And people have done a lot of horror, right? And so I'm trying to do things that would be funny, dark, and memorable. And this is one way

to do that. I don't know if it's the right way, but it's definitely unique. It is for this blend of it all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not dull. There aren't very many dull moments. Thank you. With everything that's going on. Yeah. Did you, so like, Mason has like friends, kind of one friend who really ends up helping him the most. But like when you are thinking about who all to include was that like, did you kind of know all the characters you wanted there or did you kind of meet some of them as you were writing it since you don't plot? Yeah.

I knew I knew I wanted to write a black character because I'd never done it and it was a little bit scary for me. Yeah. And it was also kind of, it's hard for a, especially a white character. guy to pull it off and get away with it. And I was like, well, worst case, it'll be controversial. Maybe somebody will notice. True. So I was thinking that. And then I knew that the other characters I were going to create were going to be based on some folks that I really, my good friends in my own life. Oh, nice. And so, you know, the character of Rudy is this kind of like rough and tough kind of

like I have a friend who looks exactly like that. He doesn't necessarily think like that. Yeah. And I've met people in my life who are ultra-conservative and, you know, good people, really good people, but also have some old world views on things, you know, and maybe believe in too many conspiracy theories and what have you. And I wanted to have imperfect characters

who you could still love. Yeah. And so those were the things I was trying to create. And I don't know that I necessarily started and said, oh, I need to have a, you know, I need to have a Samoan character, which is what I have with Cassie. I love her. I love her. I love

love her too. She's one of my favorites. She's amazing. And so she's based off a friend of mine. He talks exactly like her. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And so it is pretty funny. And so yeah, that's where I kind of started. I started from a place of I want to kind of step out my comfort zone a little bit with Mason. And in the end, I don't know that I fully did because, you know, he's adopted by Polish parents. and I don't know that I fully push it as hard as I wanted to, but I put my, I dip my toe in the water a little bit. And so that was cool. Yeah, I always wonder about that because I know you hear conversations about like, you do want to write outside of your experience. But I agree.

It would be intimidating for me to write someone who was really just not white just because there are a lot of people who get it so wrong. So I know. be intimidating to me. And I was trying not to be a coward about it. Yeah. I didn't want to skirt around, you know, how people really talk to one another. So this character on occasion, his friends do drop the N-word. Yeah.

And I'm a white guy. Can I get away with that? I don't know. So I still don't know. Yeah. But I felt real. And so no one can say that I wasn't trying to be honest. Right.

that was it right right yeah i agree um with uh oh where did my thought just completely go it just completely left me um well i'll dive into the audiobook part actually so i i saw your the cover of this on net galley and the cover was like really intriguing to me um and then i read the synopsis and then i googled it and then i saw you had a i think it was a blog post or an article about like how much you love audiobooks and then kind of how you approach the production of audiobooks. And I had like tried what is called like graphic audiobooks here recently. And the where you're not actually getting the whole book read to you and like you're having to rely on the sounds just didn't totally work for me. However, yours, I loved what you said in your post too.

You're kind of talking about like flourishes. And that kind of production I have been really enjoying when like a recording sounds like a recording or you hear like the setting change, but you're still getting it read to you. So can you kind of talk about how you love audiobooks and then how you've approached producing this one? Yeah. Again, this is what I was raised on, right? When I was a kid, my older brother said, hey, you should listen to this. It was on a cassette tape or maybe it was a CD. I can't remember, but it was an audiobook of the Dark Tower read by Stephen King, the actual author.

and I was just mesmerized by it. And so ever since then, I'm not one of those haters who's like, hey, to experience a book, it must be read. In fact, I'm the opposite. I think when you're reading a book, oftentimes you tend to skim over parts, tend to read quickly ahead, especially when you get interested in something. You just want to get to the end result. And, yes, there is something to be said for your own inner monologue and how you perceive things,

but it's also something to be said for a professional actor who can deliver this in the best light as well. Yes. And so all of this to say, I love audiobooks. I put a lot of time. I always have. Yeah. I've always put a lot of time into my audiobooks. And so I work with pro actors, you know what they're doing.

And we add sound effects. We had music. We have, it's all original. And, you know, and the other thing I firmly believe is that the, yeah, as you kind of touched on, the sound effects and music should be. overtake the spoken word. So they should be complimentary. Yeah. And, you know, so if there's something happening, I'm not going to give any examples because I don't want to spoil it. But, you know, you just, it should add to the experience and not distract you from it. Because if it's too loud or overbearing or what have you, it can take away. Or if it feels too dramatic, then you can

lose yourself and step outside of the book again. I don't want anyone to do. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it I like for the longest time could only listen to like nonfiction for audio was like all that like worked for me and I don't know why it changed at the beginning of this year or if it was just like my friend I had a friend who just was like you start with these narrators and like that obviously makes such a big difference so it's probably somewhat because I was listening to um essay Cosby and I can't think of Adam Adam was our white is he's such a fantastic narrator so I think that's kind of what got me into it and now I can listen to fiction but like you're saying there's some of the things I've even noticed too is like uh like if I'm reading and it's in like the UK I'm not actually I'm not even reading it with like a British accent even though I technically know that's what it is but then like I just listened to

one that had like three different narrators and they were all Irish or British, basically. And it does like remind you of where you are even more, having that context with some stuff. Definitely. Yeah. I was listening to, oh God, I'm going to totally butcher. Famous author, is it Pierce Brown? Yeah. The Red Rising series, I think. Oh, yes. Yeah. And yeah, and he's got, I think it's an Irish or Scottish voice. actor. Yeah, and it totally immersed me in the book. And I would have never thought of that, that rendition if I was just reading it for myself. Right. Yeah. And then again, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do spoilers. But the way that like the voice acting in this one really

elevates some of the horror levels. Yeah. With some of the voices where I was realizing that's another thing where like, would I have actually been like in my head hearing this like scary voice or would I like just be reading it? And so it is just like so different getting to listen to it. And like I said, I do love those elements where it's like just complimentary, kind of like you're saying or like you can tell he stepped outside or like just kind of like help set the scene but doesn't overtake it. But you're right.

That is like the other part is like still making sure like everything is balanced correctly. I just edited an audience. book in June or July. And that was like the other thing that I hadn't thought of until I was editing it. Like I would edit in my noise canceling headphones. And then you listen to it somewhere else and it also sounds different. So you just like have to like pay attention to all the different things. Yeah. I completely agree. And it would be interesting to, I mean, I don't think a lot of listeners understand all the back and forth that goes into an audiobook either because you write something, you send it off to a narrator. The narrator reads it. Sometimes they read it perfectly.

sometimes they don't sometimes they miss a word or something like that and then it comes back to you and you realize whoops that wasn't their fault i forgot that word and then so you're kind of like catching last minute edits especially if you're an indie author like me and uh and so it's a process and it just keeps going and going and it took us i don't know we probably worked on the audiobook for close to two months that's what i was going to ask yeah yeah and yeah and there's a lot that goes into it right and you're looking up, I'm going on and I'm trying to find the right music for certain scenes and anything that you hear in that book outside of the voice work, which was done by a guy, Philip Nathaniel Freeman, he's amazing.

He, although all these sound effects music were chosen by me. Just a lot of research. And so if there is a pivotal scene where something gets unveiled or something and there's kind of a buildup of music, that was handpicked by me as well just because I felt like it appropriate for the scene. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask next is like how you kind of decide on that because I, I basically co-narrated with one of my, she was an indie author as well and wanted to do an audiobook. So she was like, would you be interested in co-narrating with me and can you edit? And that's what I do for work. So I was like, yeah. But like she's in California.

I'm in Indiana. And so like somehow like back and forth between the two of us. I think it took six weeks. It was a shorter book and we didn't really add flourishes, but like everything you're talking about, sometimes I would be listening to what I had recorded. And I'm like, why did I just skip that word? And how did I not know that I skipped that word? Like, you're like, what? And you can't just record one word. It doesn't, or you can't just re-record one word. That typically doesn't work. And sometimes your voice sounds totally different. You just have to redo the whole chapter. Completely. Yeah. And I will say, I love the guy. But my, narrator was very literal. So if I wrote something and he would read it exactly as written. So

yeah, if I had the wrong word sometimes or what have you, and it would help me catch stuff, like I said. Yeah. Yeah, it's a process though. It is. But I'm very proud of the audiobooks. I actually, when my friends or family ask me, hey, you know, what version should I get? I usually recommend the audiobook. Yeah. It's a fun theatrical experience. Yeah, I do too of this one for sure. It was, yeah, it was just so immersive, um, having those extra elements. And he really, he's a very talented, uh, voice actor. Mine is like, is I was just mostly speaking in my voice. So it was like a kind of fit. I have a good voice for it though. Well, thank you. It was crazy because I never thought I did. And so when she asked me, I was like, really? I've never even

thought of that before. And she's like, you've been talking on podcast forever. And I was like, I guess you're right. Um, yeah, my wife is like, how you should, you should read your book. And I was like, no one wants to hear this voice. So yeah, yeah. That's how I felt. And then I very quickly realized, like, if I was going to do more of it, because we were recording in the summer and I had bad allergies. And I was like, oh, boy, if I was ever going to do this, I can't live here in the summer

and do this because, like, my voice is just so inconsistent with. We just had some, we had insane allergy season this year. But, yeah, there are some books that I don't know. basically this year it also made me explore even more genres was like the other interesting thing because I've mostly just been like a horror thriller um sometime mystery I don't know sometimes reader um and something about audiobooks helped me like enjoy all kinds of genres even more which is so fun like there are some books where you're like you really might like this if you listen to it versus like trying to read it I agree

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially for new readers, I think, even. Yeah, I totally agree. And I've gotten into several books that are outside of my genre scope as well, because I kind of like the voice narrator. Yeah, yes. And I can't remember. There's this guy.

I'll have to send him to you afterward, but there's one voice narrator I love so much. And he reads a lot of stuff for the author, Peter Klein's. Okay. And anyway, he's incredible. Like his name is Ray. But anyway. I would follow him anywhere. He could read, you know, poetry. He could read stories that I'm just not into. I'd be all over it. Yeah. That's what I, Angel Peene is one of

my favorite female narrators. And the first time I heard her was in a book called Junie by Aaron Crosby-Eyne. But it's the same thing where like literally right before we got on here, actually, I had someone pitch me a book that comes out, I think, in May. And I was like, oh, this does sound really, it sounds really good. Do I want to request the print on NetGalley or the digital version on NetGalley? And then I looked it up on Audible and my favorite narrator is the narrator. And I'm like, okay, I'm just going to wait until the audiobooks out. Because like, I've almost read, I've said this a couple times. So I haven't read it yet. She also narrates like this like, uh, uh, like bisexual pirate woman from like the 1400s. I'm like I've never read about

pirates and I don't know if I've read anything in the 1400s, but I love her voice so much that I'm like considering it. Love it. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny how that, like, especially if you become a big audiobook fan, uh, I mentioned Peter Klein's. He has a new book that just came out maybe about a month ago. Okay. And it's called God's junk drawer, I think. Oh, it looks really good. People are giving it rate reviews. However, you didn't ship the audiobook at the same time for various reasons. It's not coming out until January. So I'm going to wait until January. I feel you. Yeah, I'm done the same way. I remembered what I was going to ask earlier, but there is like you talked about, you do make fun of Silicon Valley because it needs to be

made fun of. There is like some really great dark humor throughout it. So is that an element that you pay attention to and like try to balance or is it kind of just like your tone and like this is what you're thinking from working there for so long? I think it's both. There's a lot of dark stuff happening in the book, right? And, and the, I think the reader, if I were just to throw that at you nonstop without a break, true. It would just be overwhelming. And so I want the sort of like the campfire where you can retreat and cozy up to be the characters themselves, right? Yeah. And they have to have a certain warmth and you have to like them and you have to want to hang out with it. And so that, if I've done my job, who knows if I have, but like that, that's where your retreat is against

all the dark shit that's happening everywhere. I like that. There's also, there's quite a bit of action scenes in all kinds of different ways. Again, just avoiding spoilers. But I'm always fascinated. Everyone kind of has a different approach to writing action scenes. So is there anything you do to like visualize it or are you, does it just kind of come into your mind?

I say it comes into my mind. The thing I'm mostly aware of, when I try to be, like, sort of north star is flow and pace. And I don't know that I can go off on my own little tangents too and maybe lose flow a little bit. Yeah. But flow is definitely my guiding light for sure. I want everything to keep moving as quickly as possible.

I don't always succeed, but I definitely, that's my intent. And so action should exist, obviously, as a means to build on something that's happening. but really it's about the characters at the end of the day. So how they get through with it? And I think in this book, there's even more action probably in sophistication, which is my last book. And that was difficult to write

because I hadn't done a lot of action scenes like that. And this one, I'm more familiar with the process and at least how I do it. And so no, I just have a scene. I know what's going to happen. I know that I wanted to be visceral and I pull whatever levers I can to make that happen, whether it's audio cues, visual cues, and things that stand out in your mind.

Yeah. And I don't try to keep it from bloating as much as possible. Right. Yeah. Do you ever scare yourself with what you write? Like, does it ever stick with you and you're like freaked out going to bed or something? Yeah. Yeah, I've done that.

And I've also, you know, the other thing is you write something sometimes. like wow that was that was a that was a great moment between those characters and you actually kind of like feel a little bit of emotion yeah feel emotional about it and so I've done that as well uh it's a rare fun satisfying thing when that happens as an idea whether you scare yourself or make yourself laugh right or or make yourself emotional yeah it's yeah it's great yeah it's like wow i was able to make that and it's like lingering with me even even though i created it it's still sticking with me yeah and I will say in the process of the audiobook where you've forgotten what you wrote and it's been in some cases months you can like hear it fresh and you know oh yeah that did work or that didn't

work. It didn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Was there any not to get into spoilers, but I know you didn't know your ending going into it, but did you change it at all? Was there any changing that or did you kind of like get to where you wanted to look kind of like with the first round? Yeah. I, That's a good question. I think I didn't know. So if you get through a portion of this book, it seems to be going in one direction. And then after you hit a certain point, it kind of goes into a different direction. And I didn't know that that was going to happen. I didn't plan it at all.

And in fact, I thought the story that you start with would be the story that you ended with. And so it would all take place in Silicon Valley. And, you know, it would be a self-constained story there. But it's not what happened. So at one point I hit a crossroad and I remember thinking myself, Matt, this is where you either go for it or you don't go for it. And I decided to go for it. So I see a result. Yeah.

It's so fascinating to me like how ideas come to people or just how they craft it versus like sometimes it's like, oh, I just had to sit there and say I was going to write. And then like the ideas came as I was doing it. that's generally how I work by the way yeah yeah that part just like sounds so it sounds so magical to me but that's probably because I'm like so process oriented in other like areas of my life where I'm like that is like just knowing if you make yourself sit there you can probably write something just again yeah I was saying it just ends up feeling magical um I don't think it's a spoiler because it isn't the synopsis but there there is a serial killer element that's going on as well.

Was there anything you researched for that? Were you already kind of like interested in serial killers? What was that part like? Yeah, there were two things that happened. When I first wrote the opening chapter, it started with Mason in Silicon Valley. And I thought this is too negative, too negative. And I need to, I need an opening hook. And so that's when I wrote in D.B. Cooper.

and that scene kind of builds up to the rest of the book. And the other thing I thought was whatever, this thing that's happening with Mason is interesting, but isn't enough. I need another element, I think. And so at some point I realized it was probably going to be a serial killer, but I didn't know who the serial killer was going to be at all. Yeah. And or what or anything like that. So, yeah. That's crazy.

Yeah. So you are trying to, it's funny, what the craziest thing that happens is. happens for me in a book is you you somehow foreshadow without knowing on a conscious level that what you're going to write. So I've written a scene early on like when I first started writing the book and Mason is talking about something or he's thinking about something. It turns out that's exactly a foreshadow of what ultimately happens in the book. And I don't want to say it here, but you and I can chat about it on the side. But yeah, I completely predicted where my book was going like in the first pages and had no idea until later.

That is wild. Wait a minute. Yeah. It's got to feel so cool like seeing like, oh, a part of myself might have kind of known where this could go. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's definitely weird. I'll send you the line and you'll be like, oh my God, that's true. Wow. Yeah. I've had a couple people mention that before. And I'm always like it's because I'm also just generally fascinated in our subconscious versus our conscious. And so it's, it's kind of, you see why, like, even when people go to therapy, they're, like, kind of just, like, start writing or journaling more. You'll, like, some stuff may come up that you don't even know of. And it sounds like it can happen with novel writing. And in the same sense, it's just, it's kind of cool that relationship

between, like, both parts of ourselves. At the, at the very, I mean, if you're, if you're a scientist, you might say that thematically, the thought was already with me. Yeah. If you're more, you know, if you're more, if you believe in magic or what have you, you might say, well, wow, you knew already at the very beginning, you know, what was going to happen. Yeah. I don't even know which one I'm, I probably go both ways. Yeah. It's safe. Yeah. It is just cool, though. What was I also going to ask? Maybe that was it. Uh, so I, I obviously loved it. People who have been listening to podcasts have also heard me talk about it. And any of my audiobook people who I know we found a lot more this year, I highly recommended

it on audio. I also would say like even if this is kind of outside of your genre, this is that good example of like try the audio version because sometimes that does just like click like we were talking about. But I do always ask it in two if you have any books. that you loved recently or just any books that you always recommend. Ooh, I did read something recently, but am I going to remember the name of it? I'm not, gosh. It is wilderness reform. Wilderness reform is the name of it.

It's a great book, and it's written by two brothers. And it's basically about a bunch of a youth who are having trouble in life and they get sent off to a wilderness reform to like, you know, clean up. racks. And when they get there, the camp counselors are not at all what they see. So it was a cool, fun story for me. That sounds good. I liked. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So that's, that's the latest. And yeah, and then next I'll be reading is God's Jump Dore by Peter Klein's. Yeah. Wow, this cover is fantastic for wilderness reform. Yeah. Yeah, you've got me to read it. It's a neat story. I liked it a lot.

And it's it's it is I will say very masculine. And they kind of embrace that. There's a lot of talk about, you know, boys being boys and all that. Right. So that either works or doesn't work for you, but I liked it. I thought it was fun.

Yeah. It was kind of reminding me, it's not the same thing, but I just read Camp Damascus by, why can't I think of his name right now? I know the title, but I've never read it. Oh my gosh.

He became one of my favorite authors this year. but yeah it was more about like a like a gay conversion camp so still kind of like an unsettling camp experience basically and I loved it it was so chuck tingle that's what it was I could think of talk I couldn't think of tingle which is probably more memorable yeah you might like this thing it's a it's a good one yeah and then definitely definitely got it you got to check out and your readers should check out god's junker I haven't even read it yet but I know it's going to be fun yeah I'm even the title is what has like I love a I love a unique title like that oh it's another cover with a black and green yeah got some black and green cover wrecks for everybody I really I really do I've got a theme going on yeah we always joke like so

many I don't know if I even have one nearby but so many domestic thrillers are blue and yellow and like so much it's like a house with a yellow light on and maybe a silhouette so it's like you're sure There must be entire marketing where they've done A-B test to see exactly what works and draws the eyes and everything else. Yeah, like what works for your genre. Well, I'm definitely, oh, I just saw there's time travel involved in God's junk drawer. So I'm getting more intrigued. And things.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? I'm, so you can go to my blog, which is just Mattcassah.com. I'm T-T-C-A-S-A. That's where you generally post updates about just the books. Yeah. And I'm active on Blue Sky and still on X, although less so.

Yeah. And yeah, you can just look for my name. But there's a lot of video game talk for me happening on both those sites as well. Yeah. Because my background being in video games. Totally. So you may find me talking about Nintendo's new game as much as talking about books. That works.

Well, thank you for coming on. and thank you for the audiobook experience as well. Yeah, my pleasure. It's super fun.