Bookwild - Sin Is an Illusion? Keith Giles on The Quantum Gospel of Mary

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

This week, I talk with Keith Giles about how the early Christian world was far more diverse and mystical than most people realize. He unpacks the history of suppressed gospels, the erasure of Mary Magdalene’s authority, and how non-duality, interconnectedness, and compassion sit at the heart of Jesus’s original teachings. We dive into deconstruction, Christian nationalism, biblical misuse, and how theology shapes our relationships with ourselves and others.Keith offers a grounded, hopeful vision of spirituality rooted not in fear or hierarchy, but in transformation, justice, and shared humanity.The Quantum Gospel of Mary Info Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Keith Giles about his newest book, the Quantum Gospel of Mary and the Lost Gospel of Truth. It is a fascinating book. We have a fascinating conversation about how the books that were included in the Bible were chosen and maybe why Mary's was not included and how we can interpret different parts of the Bible via this perspective as well. So here's the synopsis. The Gospel of Mary may have been written as early as 80C.E or as late as 180C.E. But no matter where you place it in the timeline of early Christian texts, it still remains one of the more controversial writings ever studied. The Gospel of Truth was most likely written between 140 and 180C.E.

And until its discovery at Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945, was one of the several gospel texts suppressed by the Prophemy. Orthodox Church for suggesting that everyone was already one with the divine. In this book, author Keith Giles offers a look at both texts through the lens of shared divinity. His thesis is that both of these lost gospels provide a window into the revolutionary teachings of Jesus that point to a quantum spiritual reality that we are all connected to God and to one another. You know, I've been on a streak of talking about this kind of stuff lately. truly the most powerful part of this book is thinking about Christianity in a sense where everyone is already part of the divine. There isn't this lurking fear of hell. There isn't this huge judgment

that you should just always be feeling about yourself and that actually we are all connected to each other, which I think is a very powerful message for nowadays. So, So that being said, let's hear from Keith. I am super excited to be here with Keith Giles, who when I was looking at all the books you've written, you have written so many books. I'm thoroughly impressed. It's a backlist. I'll have to slowly work my way through. But I am super excited to talk about the quantum gospel of Mary and just all of your interpretations, theologically. So thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation. And yeah, I've been writing a lot of books over the last several years. And lately it's kind of my main thing. I never thought it was possible. But that's cool. Yeah. So yeah, it's been fun. Yeah. So what kind of brought you to, I mean, I know there's all kinds of, there's all kinds of backstory, I'm sure. But what kind of brought you to writing in general? And then specifically, these. you have the quantum god or the quantum sayings of jesus and then the quantum gospel of mary so what also kind of brought you to those subjects yeah um well writing books um or writing in general i mean um

i've always wanted to be a writer since i was old kid i think my dream initially was i was going to write science fiction but uh oh that hasn't happened yet although i am i am going to publish a novella next year so i am i'd say i'm intrigued by that yeah um i'm dipping my toes into that going back to that but um well no so i but i always wanted to be a writer um many years ago golly probably like 20 years ago yeah something like that's a long time ago yeah um i i started a blog this is back when blogging was a big deal and uh back in those days and um yeah and the blog so i some of the blog post you know i kind of self-published a couple of books based on some of the blog post i self-published like, I don't have probably like six books before I found a publisher. And so yeah, once I,

once I started having success as a writer, it was like, okay, I love writing and I like to be able to do this and engage with people either through blogging or through my books and that kind of thing. I think the, when all my books have been, all the books that I published have been sort of nonfiction theological kind of things. And, um, And typically they are, they're based on my own kind of journey, you know what I mean, things that I'm learning. And I'm like, hey, wow, this was amazing. This was helpful to me. I'm sure other people would also, you know, would help them to know these things.

And what I try to do when I'm writing, and hopefully people notice this, even though I am trying to share information, I am trying to help people, you know, learn something. I'm also trying to help people think for themselves, you know? So, like, in all the books I've done, I typically will say something along the lines of like, you know, you don't, at the end of the book, you don't have to agree with me. You don't have to land where I land. But I hope you would at least, you know, listen to what I'm saying, look at what I'm talking about and think about these things, right? I think to engage people and to get them thinking about stuff, that's what gets me excited, right? So writing these, the last two books I've done, so the quantum sings of Jesus, which is about Thomas, the Gospel of Thomas, and this one, the Gospel of Mary, which also in this book has included the Gospel of Truth, sort of a two and one in this one. I came to those by way of, well, I had just finished writing the seven-part book series called the Jesus Unbook series.

And one of those seven books dealt with a specific bit of my theology I grew up with that over time I figured out like what I was told wasn't accurate. Yeah. And what I realized was I didn't really have an education. I had an indoctrination because an education would have been, hey, you know, Keith, this is all the information about this particular topic. Even if the people teaching me had said, and we prefer this, you know. Right. Interpretation. Yeah, our interpretation, sure.

But I would have known all of it, right? And then I could have made it my own mind. So I kind of had to come, sort of unlearn a bunch of things I was taught. That's why I wrote the Jesus Un series. Yeah. And so that series I dealt with everything from the doctrine of hell and the second coming of Jesus and how do we approach the Bible and faith and politics and so many things. so I finished that series and I kind of reached a place of kind of like now what you know like I know what I don't believe anymore I kind of think I know in general where I land but I just was like where do I go now just on my own journey journey not just even as an author right so the first book I wrote after that was a book called Sola Mysterium Celebrating the Beautiful Uncertainty of Everything and that that was the beginning of what led me to where I'm now. So I, what I realized was is that what I have been doing to that point

was theology, right? I've been talking about theology. What is theology? Theology is essentially the study trying to understand God, and God by definition is a being beyond all human comprehension. And what I realized was it's kind of insane to say, hey, you know, there's this being beyond all human comprehension. And now let me tell you all about them. Yeah. You know what am I doing? What am I trying to do here? So that's when I was like, you know what? I think it isn't about having all the right information about God.

I think it's actually not information. It's actually about transformation. And transformation is more about your experience with the divine. And that's about getting all your little doctrines lined up perfectly. Like as if there's some cosmic quiz you're going to all have to pass at some point, you know, to get all the answers correct. So the I wrote Solom Mysterium. And in writing that book, I started getting into quantum science and started really like, that was the beginning for me of noticing how quantum physics was beginning to confirm many of the things that mystics from many traditions, not just Christianity. Yeah.

Buddhism, Hinduism, you know, people like black elk and Native American shaman and Rumi and others have been noticing for a very long time, which is that everything is connected. Yes. That duality is not reality. And so that was very exciting. And then the more I moved in that direction, around the same time, I started looking at the Gospel of Thomas. And what blew my mind was that the only way to make sense of the Gospel of Thomas is to read it through that understanding of kind of a quantum reality that everything is connected.

And we are all connected to the divine and therefore we're all connected to one another. Yes. so that was super exciting to me that that book the quantum things of jesus um was i just i had so much fun writing that book and yeah and i kind of say like i feel like that's the answer this this realization is the answer to everything for me yeah so like i think literally and it sounds hokey but i really believe this i think that if we as humanity can really wrap our brains around this and begin living from this reality of we're all connected to God, everyone, and we're all connected to one another, that we all have a shared divinity and a shared humanity.

Yes. I say it's the answer to everything because this is the way you love your neighbor as yourself. Because when you look at your neighbor, you don't see an other person, you see yourself. This is how you love your enemy. Because when you look at your enemy, you don't see an enemy. You see Christ. You see God. You see the divine in them.

And I believe it's, if we could really do this, this is the end of war. famines, you know, prejudice, all the problems, all the major problems that the humanity faces. And so that's what gets me excited about this topic. Yeah. Yeah. And so after I wrote Thomas, it was sort of like natural to be like, okay, what's next? And I looked at the gospel of Mary. Yeah.

And yeah, even more excited. There's just amazing stuff in the gospel of Mary. Yes. So I'm writing a series right now. So those are the first two. and I'm working on at this moment I'm working on a commentary in the gospel of Philip and then I'm also going to write a book about the sayings of the Apostle Paul which are actually along the same lines of non-duality and connection.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I have, I agree with so much of what you just said. I have so many other questions too. kind of just to set the stage for for anyone who's kind of new to the Gnostic Gospels, Gospels that didn't make it into the Bible. Yeah. Can you kind of talk about like briefly about the history of these Gospels that weren't included? I will try.

Or it does have to be brief. I have time. Okay. All right. But I will try to keep it. Yeah. Fairly brief. So yeah, I mean, that's to be shock, right?

like being raised in an evangelical conservative Christian home, you know, there's, there's only four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But then, you know, you start studying and finding out that, oh, no, actually, there are lots of different gospels. And, by the way, lots of different Christianities. Dr. Elaine Pagels has an excellent book called Beyond Belief. And this is the book that blew my mind about this. Because I had, the ironic thing is I had studied early church history for a long time. But always from the perspective of orthodoxy, like Irenaeus-Tertullian, what we call the Church Fathers. But that's only one stream.

That's only one voice of early Christianity. What Dr. Pagels points out is that, and many other scholars point out, is that early Christianity in the first couple hundred years, it wasn't a monolith, right? Essentially, if you could go back in time, you would encounter dozens of different groups of people who all would have said that they followed Jesus. But they all would have had slightly different or sometimes, you know, vastly different ways of understanding who Jesus was, what Jesus taught, what it meant to be a follower of Jesus.

But they would all said, I'm a Christian or I follow Jesus. And so that's number one. So when you understand that and you realize that, then it makes sense that there were many other gospels out there. We know, I talk about this in the quantum sayings of Jesus, sort of the timeline, the historicity of this. but essentially the people that we now call the Orthodox who have convinced us all that they were the only Christians that ever were around well they did that by erasing all those other

Christian voices and one of the ways they did that was under Constantine one of the church fathers named Athanasius again under the authority of Rome the Roman Empire he wrote a letter to it's called the Easter letter to all these Christian seminaries and churches and schools, you know, around that time, and like 340 A.D.

And basically what he tells them is they can no longer use certain texts in their sermons, in their teachings, in their homilies, in their education. And first of all, that tells us something. That means until 340 A.D., Christians were using all of those different texts in all of their, you know, education and teaching. and sermons and everything else. And so in this letter, we have a list of the books that he essentially says, you know, don't use these anymore. Most, in response, most Christians burned or destroyed those texts.

At least one person that we know of in Nagamati, Egypt, probably at a seminary or something there, or maybe he was a monk or something, right? mystery um anyway he took these texts and he but 30 odd something 30 something text and he put them in a jar and sealed it and buried it in the sand and it sat there until like 1940 something and then it was discovered so it was this amazing time capsule of books so the nakamadi discovery that's where we found the gospel of thomas but we also found the gospel of philip and uh the apocryphae of john the gospel of truth Thunder Perfect Mind. There's so many different texts that were discovered. And so that discovery has, you know, allowed us to shine a light into some of what was going on for the first

couple hundred years of church history. So the thing that's fascinating about that, that I personally find exciting about, like, writing a book about Thomas and writing a book about Mary and Philip and the Gospel of Truth and things like this, is that this is such a brand new field. you know, like this discovery, the discovery of these texts, at least the translation of them, has been in my lifetime, right? They were only translated in English, like in the 1970s or something. I was born in 66. So, you know, if you think about it, we have 2,000 years of commentary and study on Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We've got about 40 to 50 years of study on Thomas and Mary and Philip and all these other texts, right? It's brand new.

we just are beginning to look at them and study them and find out what were they saying, what did they mean, and how do they apply? So, yeah, that's the exciting thing about it. So hopefully, yeah, if listeners don't know, yeah, there are a lot of other texts that are out there. And yeah, and I think at least Thomas and Mary and Philip and some of the others, specifically Nagamati texts, are definitely worth studying. Yeah. Yeah, something I thought was really interesting that you kind of write about at the beginning of this book is that there's a Harvard theologian who basically says, I never call the Gospel of Mary a Gnostic text because there was no such thing as Gnosticism.

Kind of coming from the idea that it is just someone else's perspective of what was happening at that time. And the more that I've learned, I kind of went through. the way I explain it. I kind of went through deconstruction about like when I was like 19 and 20 I'm a pastor's kid

so I went through a deconstruction that had a lot attached to it as it probably always does and it was just kind of getting it was definitely evangelical white family

who there was an obsession with being in the world and not of it so like lived in a bubble essentially so it was kind of like I had I had to tease out like abuse I had to kind of go through like what's difficult for me about the Bible which I really resonated with what you were saying at the beginning is like sometimes it's just the interpretations and how it's used and also what was so hard for me was like so this God who created me created me knowing I was going to be imperfect but then he got angry at me for being imperfect and I had to send his son it feels like resentment it feels like all kinds of that so that was kind of my first de- construction. It feels like now I'm having another one where I'm kind of like, okay, there are also

just like different interpretations. Yes. And religion is used for control and mixes with the government. So that's kind of my feeling with this narcissism. It feels like these are more loving maybe gospels or like more generous interpretations. Is that kind of how you felt when you've been yes no thank thank you i think that's actually a very accurate um assessment of that you're right like i always say when i talk about thomas and mary and things like they're not gnostic texts yeah even even what you would call nosticism what people call nosticism which is really sethe in nosticism it has very specific teachings about a demigod that created the universe that's not the real god um all these angelic hierarchies and arcans and things like this

and none of that is in Thomas doesn't talk about that Mary doesn't talk about that Philip doesn't talk about that so they're not really they're not even Gnostic text if you want to say something is Gnostic but you make a great point though about like the deconstruction process and how the Bible really is the hardest thing like in that seven part series that I wrote I mentioned Jesus Unbound is the book that I wrote about

it's called Liberating the Word of God from the Bible and it's about approaching how to approach the Bible and I always tell people even though I didn't write that book first. I always say you should read that book first. Okay. In the series, because I think it's such a critical thing, the way you approach the Bible and the way you understand the Bible will impact the way you understand everything else. Yes, especially living in America. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. The Bible, well, in fact, I was just in Canada a couple weeks ago, and I gave a talk, which is crazy. Christian nationalism is starting to happen in Canada now.

Yeah, I believe it. So I flew up there to talk to this college, group there about Christian nationalism. And what I talked about was the Bible, was exactly this, like, because the way you approach the Bible makes it, I shouldn't say the way you approach the Bible, the way you are told to approach the Bible. Right. Because it is about fear and shame and guilt, and those things give them control over you as a human being. And so that can only happen if you allow people, convince people, to convince you that the Bible, is sort of like this flat authoritative document. It makes it easier for nationalism, Christian nationalism, to take place.

And many other horrible things, right? Yeah, fundamentalism in general. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty crucial to fundamentalism. So, yeah, the way we approach the Bible is important. And I think untangling that is really the first step, you know, to realizing. So like the things that I talk about in Thomas, that I see in Thomas, that I see in Mary, this message of non-duality, this message that we're all connected to God

and we're all connected to one another. Here's what's crazy. Once I saw that and wrote about that in those books from those texts, I started noticing that, you know what, those same things are in Matthew and John and in Ephesians and in Ephesians and Galatians and Colossians. Like, that's why I'm going to write a book about the quantum things of Paul, because Paul talks about this stuff all the time. And so to Jesus, you know. So it's not as if we only get these teachings in these quote unquote gnostic texts or or nagamati texts or these oh extra biblical texts they're in the new testament text too they're just not emphasized right right that's not the stuff that gets that gets preached over and over and over again um so i think see being able to see it

the things that jesus says and thomas the things that that are said in mary um you know this non-dualism right wow this is amazing and then going well wait a minute pa said something similar, Jesus said something similar. You realize that this is where these guys got it, right? Yeah. Why could somebody in the first century, second century, call themselves a Christian,

have a gospel of Thomas, have a gospel of Philip or the gospel of him, and talk this way and be accepted because Jesus talked this way, because Paul talked this way, because lots of other Christians thought this way at the time. This idea, yeah, like you said, more loving, more accepting,

Like in Elaine Pagel's book, Goal and Belief, when she's talking about these different Christianities, plural, she talks about one group called the Valentinians. And I was reading about the Valentinian Christians and what people like Uranus and some of the Orthodox Christians didn't like about them. And what I found that they didn't like about them was like everything I would love about them. Like I was like, if I lived back then, I'd be a Valentinian. Right.

Because they didn't believe in hierarchy. they um like iranus and other church fathers were upset that the valentinians like when they came together they allowed women yeah baptize people they allowed children to read the scriptures out loud they allowed like in other words like everyone was included yeah it was like they were the body of christ and everyone had a role to play and everyone was accepted as an equal and i'm like that's awesome yes wow i want to live in the alternate reality where that's the Christianity that that one the day, you know what I mean? Yeah, that persisted. Unfortunately, it's not. It's the patriarchal, hierarchical one that was all about power and control. Yeah, which is the, which is actually the

verses you cannot find, you don't find Jesus saying that's what was supposed to be. You find the opposite when you're just reading what people have said about Jesus. That's what's been fascinating to me, just learning more probably in the last year or two, where I got to a point where I was like, well, I want to know some more about this, like, especially since Christian nationalism is, yeah, I mean, it's affecting, it's affecting everyone's lives, whether they accept that or not yet. That's right. So I got, I got really interested in it as well. And then I was like, I mean, politically, Jesus would be my homeboy, essentially. Yes, he would.

Yes, he would. Yes. you'd be telling you to do what by the way of the Jewish scriptures the Hebrew scriptures say care for the poor yeah love the immigrant treat them as one of your own like all of that that's all quote unquote biblical yeah right and so Jesus was all about that right the sermon on the Mount is all about you know I was I was naked and you clothed me I was hungry you gave me something to eat I would you know like this is a Matthew 25 is like the standard like who who gets in and who doesn't yes not do you know that the right the

Did you say the prayer? Did you go to church every Sunday? Did you tithe regularly? No, it's like, did you love your fellow human being? Did you have compassion and mercy on people? That's what matters. Yes. Yeah, exactly. That was early on in the book, you mentioned, I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the direct quote, but like if sin was off the table, how would your relationship with God change? But then also how would your relationship with everyone else changed? Yes. So can you kind of talk to people about, like, like how Jesus kind of says, like, sin is, he's almost saying sin is a man-made construct. No, he does. That's exactly what is. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the Gospel of Mary, I mean, we're missing the first sort of the intro of it. We're missing, like, the first six or seven pages. And so, so where it's, where it begins, the disciples are just asking him questions. And, yeah, so it begins at the, with a question like Peter asked, you know, what is sin? and uh and jesus response is there is no sin like sin is an illusion sin is something that you guys invented you made this up right and by the way that's consistent with other things jesus also

says in matthew mark luke and john right this idea that um because like when we look at jesus in the in matthew mark luke and john he's he forgives sins all the time no one yet no one ever asks jesus please forgive me and yet he's forgiving them constantly it's the first thing out of his your sins are forgiven. Now what do you want? What's her name? Why are you here? Like so yeah, Jesus Jesus sets up this idea that and in the gospel of Mary just flat out says it. Sin is in your head. Sin is your problem. And meaning human beings, we're the ones keeping track, right? Well, again, Paul says in 1st Corinthians 13, love keeps no record of wrongs. And if God is love, then that means God isn't keeping the record of wrongs. We are. We're keeping the score, right?

there's also a passage in second corinthians where paul says god was in christ not counting your sins against you but reconciling the world to himself never heard a sermon on that my whole life me neither but a radical but see that's all consistent with what jesus says in the gospel of mary he answers peter by saying there's no sin sin is in your head get over it right yeah as far as god is concerned right i have cast your sins as far as the east is from the west I remember them no more. Why do you keep bringing up this sin stuff?

And why do you keep holding it over one another? Because, see, that's really what happens. Yes. We, you know, oh, you're this sinner. You're that kind of sinner. What's going on right now in the world today, right? Yes. You broke the law.

What do you not understand about the word illegal? Yeah. They came here illegally. They broke the law, right? Yeah. And just calling people illegals. Like, so demeaning. Yes.

Yeah. So again, we're the ones who do this kind of thing. God doesn't do these kind of things, right? Yeah, so I do ask that question in the Bible, like, wow, just imagine if that teaching had stuck. If we have Christianity was known for this insistence that sin was in our head, and we need to just get over it. Because God's not holding it over us. We've got to stop holding it over one another. And then, yeah, the question like, how would your life be different if you didn't look at other people through that filter of their sin?

Yeah. And if you didn't look at yourself that way. Yes. I mean, talk about being set free. Yeah. That's really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be a much calmer existence in your own mind towards yourself. And I think some of it, too, I think, I think dogma can can help you feel like you have control and can help you feel like you understand things for sure. And that's like I always, that was a lot of, a lot of my 20s was. unlearning, not unlearning, but just learning that wanting everything to be black and white not only isn't possible, but it's actually like I wouldn't want a black and white world as much as I think I do. Right. So I think it would help us, like you're saying, so much even in how we talk to ourselves, but also how we talk to others. Here's one of my questions I've had kind of recently. So, like, I love this approach to either Christianity or religion or spirituality, whatever it is, of understanding we're all interconnected. I think that's really powerful. And that's, I've also been learning just like so much of the history of the United

States that I wasn't taught in school. It's not good, is it? It's not pretty. There's another example of, like, stuff that just, we're like, let's just hide this. Like, people don't need to hear too much about that. And one of the things that I've like really noticed so much to your, to your point about how even like shamans, um, some indigenous, uh, Native American cultures feel the same connectedness. Yeah. Because I'm like we, like I lost out on hearing from like in the case of America, black and

indigenous cultures have so much respect for interconnectedness and like approach community so much different than the like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, mentality I grew up around. And it's like that's such a beautiful approach. And I think we would all be treating each other better and taking care of each other if we even had more of that instead of just suppressing either just genocide or slavery with these other cultures. So, but then when I start getting into thinking about this, like thinking we are all one, there's also in forgiveness we have like Jesus flipping the tables too

when people were basically using the church for capitalism and control so can you pressing the poor that's what he was upset about yeah do you have a like so that's that I've heard people bring that up and be like he wasn't forgiving them for that so but for me it's kind of like he was loving everyone else

by trying to keep them safe from these people so do you fall somewhere there Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, because I think, yeah, loving everyone and forgiveness and all that, yes, is very important. But at the same time, Jesus was all about justice. And justice, now it's not retributive. It's not in the sense of like we've got to go get them and punish them. Right. It's more like pointing out the injustice. People are suffering, right? Jesus is always on the side of those on the bottom, right? The poor, the orphan, the widow, the oppressed, speaking out for the injustice. them pointing out those that are doing the oppressing and that kind of thing. So yeah, you have to balance that, you know, you don't, it doesn't mean loving everyone doesn't mean letting them get away with it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay, as an example, I hope this is appropriate. Yeah, I hope this is okay to say this. Oh, I'm sure it is. Okay, well, I see this all the time. I just had a conversation recently with someone about this. Like, so like, you know, we're like going on

over in Israel, right? Yeah. And raised as a Christian, conservative Christian, you were always told we have to bless Israel right yeah me and what they mean by that is right um just anything they Israel does we have to just stand back and and let it happen right and or support it and cheer it on and say yep this is good but here's the thing um all of the old testament prophets i say it Jeremiah is equal Daniel like all of them you can't find you can't name major or minor prophet um who didn't bless Israel, but how did they bless Israel by pointing out their sins? I don't mean sins in the sense like we just talked about. Okay, it's right. Pointing out the injustices. Yeah, yeah. By saying, woe to you. If you keep doing this, right, bad things are going to happen to your nation. This is not good.

This is going to yield bad fruit for everyone, right? And Jesus does the same thing. Flipping the tables over in the temple is Jesus blessing Israel. But he's blessing them by saying, this is wrong. stop it, right? You're hurting people. That's blessing Israel, okay? It's not standing by and shearing it on. So I think it's reframing understanding like if you love someone, you don't allow them to continue to do harm to others because you also recognize that if we're all connected, they're also harming themselves. True. Right? So to see harm being done, to recognize the scope of that harm that's being done, and to stand up against it in the strongest way you can to stop it, right? All of that is in line with, you know,

being a prophet or being someone like Jesus who stands up, who loves others. Yeah. And who's all about reconciliation and all that. Yeah. Yeah, the stuff with Israel for me, too, obviously it's just such a tricky conversation for all kinds of reasons. There's already a lot anti-Semitism that has not like disappeared like that's still there so I understand how right of course I understand how some people are like hey like I or I don't know I understand how some people don't want that to well all of us should not want should want that to not get worse yes but I've had a couple conversations recently where like I think it's also so important to remember that like it's Israel's government like it is a very select

few people in that actual country where like just like every person in Israel wants this no yeah and like just like I mean the KKK here used religion like there's there's like we love Christ signs behind like the whole time and it I would hope that no one would just lump me into that because I was white and lived in America and was a Christian well I wasn't alive at that time but that's the other thing I think I think we forget that it's like when we talk about countries typically like capital or capital what am i trying to think proper noun countries we're really talking about their government not all the people there that's right that's exactly right yeah i think that's important to pay attention to as well but you know but your question also i think

i don't know if this is where you were going as well but but i think you can't um obviously the positive side of this idea that oh wow it's so amazing and beautiful that we're all connected to God and then therefore all connected to one another. And because the way, you know, like the way the gospel of Thomas says it, that, you know, Christ is in everyone. And the gospel of Mary says the same thing. I think Jesus says to all the disciples in the gospel of Mary that the child of humanity is within you. And the child of humanity is almost a rephrasing of the term son of man, which is a messianic, you know, again, the term of Christ. So that's the positive side. That's beautiful. That's amazing. I mean, the more you meditate on that, wow, how amazing is that, right?

Yeah. But we can't meditate on that very long before you have to go, wait a minute, if I'm connected, if everyone has Christ in them, if everyone has the spark of the divine in them. And I am connected to that same divine and therefore to everyone else. I'm also connected to these people that are doing all these awful, horrible, you know, genocidal, you know, just awful. things. What do I do with that? Yeah. Right? Because now it's like, what? How does that work?

Right. So that's a very difficult thing. And I definitely came up, you know, in my studying of this and trying to live this out. You know, that's yeah. I'm talking to that pretty quickly. Like, oh, okay, what do we do about that? Yeah. I think it is like some of it reminds me of the nature versus nurture argument where like,

who knows how what percentage of either of those like affects who we become yeah really different for every person too and like then you're wondering like what what what was your innate temperament versus like how you were treated yeah uh i would hope like i guess when i try to think about it really hard which i do sometimes um you would you would almost hope that it means that in some sense at some point there would technically be a way to scratch into that person's humanity is like kind of what I try to imagine. And then with like pedophiles and abusers and all of that, it's hard to imagine. But it's like sometimes I try to be like, okay, it means that like in some circumstance maybe we could find that little humanity inside them. Right. Right. No, I totally agree with you on that. Yeah. I mean, I think we we know this.

from psychology, you know, that people that do, you know, hurt people, hurt people, right? Right. So people who have, who commit horrible crimes, you know. Yeah. Um, yes, we, we see what they do and we say that's awful and horrible and all that. Yes. And it ended in there, we're right. That is horrible. But, you know, quite often an abuser was abused. Right. Um, and then we can hopefully have some compassion for the little child, um, who was abused, who then later grew up to become also an abuser. We don't excuse the abuse, but we understand that, you know, we have some compassion for this person that, again, something happened in their past that pushed them in this direction, right? So the other thing about it is, like, there's a great analogy. This has helped

me to think of it this way. And I got it from Richard Roar. And he got it from somebody else. So it's not really from him, but he got it from someone else, but I've always held on to it. he tells a story about this woman who was on a subway train in I think in England in the tubes whatever and all of a sudden it was like she just had this mystical kind of moment where everyone she looked at she saw Christ in them wow and it was just overwhelming to her and then she got out of the train and went up to the street level and then everyone on the sidewalk like this lasted for like a day or two everyone she looked at she saw Christ in them and she talked about how amazing that experience was

but then she said what was interesting was that she was in some people when I saw Christ in them it was bright and shining and beautiful and it was overwhelming but other people when I looked at them I saw Christ in them but it was as if Christ was dead in his tomb waiting resurrection

I like that analogy that's what helps me make sense of it that Christ is in everyone yeah but but in the sense of like dead but coming but but a resurrection is inevitable i think right yeah going to happen maybe in this life maybe in next right but there there will be a realization there will be an awakening of that um i have to believe that right yeah yeah i mean you want to believe in that i just um interviewed a poet named palum palumial tempo he wrote a book called manifest destiny um and he he was talking about how it's it's a lot about how actually interestingly

he's from nigeria and when he was studying to get his citizenship here he was like oh a lot of the stuff that was going on here is the same as what's going on in gaza was like what was clicking in his head yeah so there's a lot of poetry that's breaking down what's what has happened in america what is happening in gaza but he also has these love poems included and I asked him about it and I was like I thought that was nice because like we want to remember what we're like hoping for and what we would want to work towards and he said that his public he was like I'm glad you kind of said that my publicist was like I don't know if love poems fit here and he was like it we've got to have the example of what we're able

to hope for so I kind of think that's similar to what you're just saying no I think you're right yeah yeah exactly yeah we have to hold on to that hope that um that in the end love does when even if it doesn't always happen and we don't get to live to see it yeah yeah that's what's been kind of it will know just has been important for me especially in the last year is like it would be easier to be like oh all Christians think this way and I have no interest in learning about it but I was like I would love to find the Christians who are loving yes and there I mean, that's the, that's the thing, you know, we don't, we don't run into them. And they don't make the news, right?

It seems like all the most awful people are the ones they get attention. Yeah. You know, I've met wonderful people. Here's what's so funny, though. I mean, yes, absolutely. I met lots of people who are Christians and are very kind and loving and compassion and giving and serving and everything. You know what I meant a lot of non-Christians too.

Yeah, exactly. Don't know, don't go. They're not Christian there. But they love people and they care about people. And like that's one thing that in my deconstruction has been so has set me free is like learning to relate to human beings just as another human being, right? Yeah.

Because, you know, in the Christian world, it was like you always, when you met somebody, we're like, well, but okay, but are they a Christian? And, you know. Yes. Yeah. But now it's like, I don't ask that question. I just like, wow, they're a beautiful person. They're an amazing person, right?

And I can just relate to them as a human being to another human. being and oh they're a Muslim or they're Buddhist or they're atheists I don't care you know that's interesting but they're amazing person I can love them and care about them and relate to them just as a human being apart from that yeah that identity that tribal identity that we ascribe to so many people yes yeah I would always have that feeling growing up especially and then just like the interminable amount of pressure to save them if they weren't so you've got to preach the gospel to them because if they die. I need to save these people. Like, I'm in their life. That's what I'm supposed to do. I have to tell them something. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They get pressure. Having that pressure

relieved is like, relax. Yes. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to like convince them of right. And I can just relate to them and you know what? Maybe I'll learn something from them. Yes. Right. I'm in a posture now of like, I don't have it all figured out. Right. I don't have to. and, you know, in my relationship with this person, well, I see something in them I would I would never see otherwise. Yeah. I think that's something I've been saying more lately is like I want to stay curious in all situations. Like if I can stay curious, like you're saying, you might learn something from someone. You might hear something that like clicks that you'd never heard before, basically. There was, I just finished reading cast by Isabel Wilkerson,

which is all about how we've essentially had a caste system in America since the beginning. We just, they convinced, like, the powerful people convinced us that wasn't what was happening. We don't call it that, but yeah, it's very similar, yeah. Yeah, it's been there. And so she was talking about basically Jim Crow, and specifically it was either Alabama or Arkansas. I think it's Alabama. But, like, all of the rules about how black people couldn't use the same water found. use the same pool they like the government at the time was very aware of the fact that if you had a

one-on-one relationship with someone they become a real person to you and so they were so obsessed with convincing white people like you're going to get sick and die if you share water with these people yeah so it was like it was all about like extreme division and not having a one-on-one relationship which would probably touch your humanity a little bit if you weren't like so far gone essentially. So I think it's so important to be able to talk with any person, for the most part, one-on-one, who's not a dangerous person. Yeah, yeah. And that's something, you know, that's so true in so many situations that you can only other a group of people if you don't know anyone in that group. Right. And so I've seen that. I think I first noticed it

years ago my wife and I and our family we were we started this little ministry to families living in motels in Southern California and and so a lot of them

were families living in motels they had some amount of income but I mean a poverty level but then as part of doing that we also met people that were just flat out just homeless you know like living in their car or whatever and so we did that for like 11 years

and I tell you what that really changed my perspective because like then when I would hear people say things like oh all homeless people you know they're going to lie to you they're going to trick you they just want money and they're going to use it for drugs and blah blah you know like anytime somebody would other that group of people I would say that's not true because I know you know I have names you know my friend Mary's not like that my friend Jim isn't like that you know you should meet these people but then I realized like oh okay I'm immune to that now because I know people I've humanized people in that group well you're

It's also true for, like, Muslims, right? Like, you can only believe that Muslims only want to, you know, they hate you, they hate America, they want to oppose Sharia law, yes, and all that garbage, right? You can only believe that if you don't know any. I know. If you know them and you've been to their house and you've met their kids and, you know, like, you're like, no, no, they're not. They're just like you. They want to pay their bills and raise their kids and, you know, that, so it's true of all these

different groups of people, right? You can only hate trans people if you don't know anyone who's trans. You can only hate gay people if you've never met someone and you don't have a friendship and a connection with someone. And you can do this with every group of people, right? Exactly what you said about black people in the South. But it goes across every group of people, right? You can only other those people if you don't know them and have a connection with them. Again, this is like the reverse of what we're saying we see in Thomas and in Mary. Like, but we are connected. And there is no separation and division. And anyone telling you that there is, there's an agenda there.

Yes. They want you to believe it because it benefits their power structure. Correct. Keep you believing that this is true. Yes. Which actually leads me back to some questions about Mary, who has been fascinating for me. And we're talking about Mary of Magdalene or there's a whole breakdown. I essentially going to ask you about.

but um so she really pretty much was there with uh jesus and his disciples um frequently like from what i'm reading at least there were way more disciples than we we just think there were mostly it was the women that were kind of not included in our interpretation of it now um and her story the more i've learned about her is kind of reminding me about like witch hunts and the way that we would across cultures and time like women who were intuitive or women who could heal people like it's been all kinds of things that we've called witches um and there's been this like prostitute sex worker stigma thrown on her but then what i also thought was fascinating mary of magdalen is how i always heard about her growing up um but you break down a really cool

other interpretation of her name and everything. So can you talk about that part too? Yeah, yeah. That is fascinating. Yeah. And I didn't even know that when I started writing the book until I started writing the book and it got into it. So yeah, we always hear it. And even I think even at least one New Testament passage, it says like Mary of Magdala, as if like Jesus of Nazareth, right? Yeah. Like this is the name and this is the second part is where they were born or where they grew up or where they're from. So Mary of Magdala, you know, that's how some translators understood what was being said there. Like, oh, Mary must have been from a town called Magdala.

Or she's the Magdalene. But the problem is there is no town called Magdala anywhere. You couldn't find one. I mean, there's one there now, but I think it was founded in like the 1,200s or something, like $1,50 or something, or maybe $1,500 or something, just because, oh, we need one. So, okay, this town changed their name. But there is no ancient, you know, first century town that they could point to

that's a town called magdala so what they but now what we think was actually happening is it wasn't a reference they weren't attempting to reference where mary was from but that actually it wasn't magda or magdala it was migdala because that is the the greek term for a tower now why is that significant well because peter was the rock right yeah and and jesus changed peter's name to the rock when he gives this Christological announcement. You are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus says, you know, the Holy Spirit has revealed this to you. And therefore, you are the rock. And upon you, I'll build my church. So we think that, and by the way, other early church fathers' writings confirm this. They call her the tower. They call Mary Magdalene as Mary the Tower.

Yeah. So there was a term, it was an honor, an honorific term, right, the same way Peter is the Rock. Mary was the tower. And also because Mary does give a Christological statement. However, this leads us to the thing about, there's a chapter about how Mary was erased in the Gospel of John. The oldest copy of the Gospel of John that we have, it's like 200, I think, AD, or Common Era. So oldest copy of the Gospel of John we have, an amazing scholar, Elizabeth Schrader, did this incredible study on. this text. And notice that in the gospel of John, an attempt was made to erase Mary Magdalene and to make it so that it's Mary and Martha from the Gospel of Luke. Because they don't want Mary Magdalene to be the one who says, this is why they changed it, because if it's not changed, because they added in Martha there, that's what she proved. But why would they do that? Well, because it's otherwise it's Mary. And it's just Mary. And there's just Mary. And there's, no, Martha. And the only other Mary in the Gospel of John is Mary Magdalene. And therefore,

Mary Magdalene is the one who says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Yeah. Which would have been, right, an opportunity for Jesus to say, and you are the tower. Yeah. So anyway, we know that this was done. She's proven this, not only in that oldest copy of the Gospel of John, she went back and looked at the oldest copies in Latin. Yeah. And the same thing, the same edits were made. So there was an effort made to a literal. erase Mary Magdalene because she was just too prominent, right? She's with Jesus all the way through. She doesn't run away when he's arrested. She's there at the crucifixion. She's there at the tomb. Yes. She's an apostle to the apostles because Jesus sends her. That's what

apostle means, the sent ones. Jesus sends Mary to the apostles. So she's an apostle to the apostles to say to them that Christ has risen. So that's just so, so for many male, you know, a lot of, because it's a very patriarchal movement, that's too much. We can't have Mary Magland being equal to someone like Peter. Right. So an effort was made, which documented is proven, to erase her from the Gospel of John, as you said, to slander her name. There's an ending tacked on to the gospel of Mark, which is where they mentioned that she had seven demons and all the stuff. But we know that that came later. We know that that has a tacked on ending. It wasn't in the original ending of Mark. Wow. So that came later, again, this smear campaign against

Mary Magdalene because they don't want her to be that prominent. By the way, a similar smear campaign goes on in the book of Romans because Paul mentions Junia and this woman named Junia and she's an apostle. He says she's outstanding among the apostles. Oh, wow. And for centuries, Junia became a man. They changed Junia to Junius, which is male form, for hundreds of years. Because the Christian church couldn't handle the idea that there was a female apostle. Right. Now we found it. Again, we've proven that that was wrong. And so anyway, we see similar things happening to erase Mary Magdalene, to diminish her, to slander her. She was no. don't listen to her, don't take her seriously.

She's a demon possessed. She was a prostitute, right? So, yeah, sadly, that's what we see. And this is kind of the whole story of the Gospel of Mary. You know, I think I end the book kind of essentially saying, like, what gives me hope is that we can see all these attempts to erase her, all these attempts to slander and diminish her, literally to shred chunks out of the beginning and the middle of the Gospel of Mary.

But it didn't work. Right. We still know the truth. We still have at least a number. enough of it to know the message of it and and the prominence of mary maglin that she really was the tower she really was an early christian influence on the church yeah um and such a threat that people had to go to these links right uh to erase her yes us i talk about being books on here often just because there's more of it happening now and i with a lot of my friends were like okay if if you're banning it

that just makes me want to know what's in there that you're so scared of like now i'm just just going to read it because I need to know what you're trying to hide from me. That's exactly right. It's so similar. And it also reminds me when I was reading this. It was also reminded, like, we've had the globe, the whole world has had a history of like some people think Shakespeare's wife wrote some of his stuff or helped and didn't get credited. Then there's F. Scott Fitzgerald. A lot of people, a lot of us at this point really feel like the Great Gatsby wasn't necessarily.

written by him and then even with like uh wuthering heights is everywhere since the trailer is there but the bronte sisters published under male surnames when they were alive so that people would actually read it so we have had this like there's a very long history of that like even barry shelly right who wrote frank that's that's that was the next one i was going to bring up is like because yeah her husband was a writer right yes so initially i don't think i think they just put shelly on it yeah i think i think so too. So they would assume, yeah, they would assume that her husband wrote it without saying that she wrote it. Yeah. Because we have an 18 year old woman writing like something that is so, which actually

tease up another thing that I was going to say, there's been all this conversation about Frankenstein because there's the Guillermo del Toro adaptation on Netflix right now. And it is an adaptation. And so adaptations, you're allowed to kind of do what you decide to do with the source material. And he made some changes, and he's even telling it from his experience growing up. I don't know if he grew up in Mexico, but more of Latin culture is kind of sewn into this version of it. And so that has been making me think a lot about when we're talking about interpretations of things. It's like it is him interacting with the source material and like the things that stood out to him. and like what was important to him

and so then he's kind of recounting it his way and it was making me think of these gospels the ones that did make it and the ones that didn't and why I feel like it is so important to have so many perspectives because it is all of them we don't remember conversations verbatim our brains don't do that

so I feel like it is so important to have all these interpretations because as humans were going to be biased no matter how many years ago the person was living So I feel like it's so important to have these Mary and Thomas interpretations too because maybe we can kind of understand the source material a little bit better. No, see, that's exactly right.

Like, some of my frustrations about, like I wrote this book of Jesus Unbound about the Bible and researching that what made me upset about it is the fact that there even is a thing called a Bible. Right. Because for about 300 years, 340 years, this is the reality. every individual Christian was allowed to have their own personal quote unquote canon right and I did this you can go and look like like one early church father like Turtulian would he said you know to him these books were quote unquote inspired and some of them are books that yes that are in your New Testament some of there are books you never heard of the shepherd of Hermis you know

the book of Enoch and things like that and that was fine no one had a problem with that Right? And then another church father, right? Justin Martyr would say, well, I like these books, and I like that, but I also like these other books. And that was fine. So what was going on for over 300 years is exactly what you're talking about. And every individual follower of Christ was, what had permission to decide for themselves what inspired them. Yeah. What was inspiring to them?

Right. And it wasn't until, again, under Constantine, again, now the Roman government, right, the empire, they don't like. that. They can't have it loosey-goosey that way. It's difficult to control people if they don't all agree on what's authoritative and what is it. Yes. And first of all, again, inspiring shouldn't be authoritative. Why does authority come into it, right? Right. Authority only comes in if you need to control some people. Correct. So, you know, that's what makes me upset. It's like, I want to go back to saying, like, I think we all should be able to, should be free to say, like, these are the things that are inspiring to me and maybe it's the gospel of john maybe it's the gospel of thomas maybe it's

the writings of black elk maybe it's the poems of roomy right maybe it's bernay brown that's fine you know um and lamont like i find a lot of that inspiring and and because that's genuinely what speaks to me it's which which sparks something you know of the divine in me right rather than well nope this is it anything god wanted to say he said two thousand years ago it's over and that there's nothing else like right i don't accept that right that's what it's actually it's fascinating um approaching it approaching christianity or just jesus christ all of that uh from a historical lens actually has made me more like more warmed up to christianity in general again and i think it's what a lot of people are so scared of is like they want the bible to be the bible but then like

history is a whole other thing that does it like they don't ever merge in their minds and it's actually like making me feel like a lot of what you were saying in the beginning if I had been given all of the information yeah I would have felt differently about it but it was like the culture I was in was never gonna go that route right um but the other thing that was standing out to me in especially in the quantum sense like you're saying like the belief that were all connected um really butts up against. There's also this movement within Christian nationalists to say that empathy is bad and that it's harmful. And I feel like, I feel like this was like it's the literal counter argument to that. Like how can you say that feeling like we're connected is a sin?

So can you can you kind of talk about that? Well, no, yeah, it is ridiculous. I mean, look, even if you don't, even if you don't come at it from a religious perspective, right? Just quantum science. I'm sorry. Quantum physicists are saying that the universe is constructed in this way. But there's only, like they would say, many of them would say something like, the quantum field is everything and everything is the quantum field. Yeah. So even though we experience different people, different objects, different things in the universe, right?

They're not different. It's everything is merely an expression of one thing and that's the quantum field. So, you know, this is what excites me about this. is like, you know, I come at it from, you know, more of a mystical kind of side of things. And I see the Jesus and others, you know, other mystics point out this truth. And it's exciting to me. But you don't need that. I mean, you know, it's like to deny it, to say that, oh, no, it's not true.

We're not all connected. Yeah, you're not only going against religion and going against the Bible and against Jesus. you're going against quantum science, which is the cutting edge science of our day to day. You are out there on an island by yourself trying to convince the world that your little narrow view of reality is true and real based on nothing. I'm sorry, you've had nothing to cling to anymore. More and more, the Bible's not supporting that. Other mystics aren't supporting that, and now quantum science is saying that you're full of crap. I think, yeah, we definitely need to move empathy is

I think again like I said it's the answer to everything yeah it's not just empathy because oh you know it feels good and we should do it no because it's what's true you really are connected to one another and what you know when you do harm to others you're harming yourself you're harming humanity right we have to awaken to this reality

there's only one little planet we're all under this planet together we need each other to survive and if you know until all of us are free the numbers are free, right? Yes. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think that's really, that's the beautiful message.

And I love that more and more that message is coming at us from a variety of different sources. And hopefully it reaches the place where it's undeniable. Yeah, I agree. It's so hard for me because sometimes, like, I also feel like I'm pretty empathetic. And we talk a lot on this podcast, too, about how fiction can be such an in-row. for empathy for an experience where like you may never one on one meet this person or even like when it's historical fiction you're you're never going to meet the person who live during that but you might read something and like feel connected to them through both fiction and nonfiction um so that's been huge for me and expanding my worldview as well but it is still so hard for me to believe that like the goodness of empathy isn't undeniable and like And then even like the way we're treating immigrants in America right now, like how, how are more people not angry? Like it's still confuses me.

Yeah. But I do think a lot of it in terms of the Christian nationalism side, my hope has been that there were a lot of people who didn't know that this really was on the docket when the election came up. That's kind of been my hope because I'm like, how can so many people not see these people as people? Right. No, exactly right. That's one of the disappointing things for me is that, you know, we are now starting to see some people that initially voted for this and supported this, you know, like the FAAFO, right? Like, oh, wait a minute. Yes. And I wish that what would have been the tipping point for them would have been, oh my gosh, other people are suffering. Yes. This is horrible, you know. Stop, guys. This is wrong. Let's not do this. But, but instead, said, what's finally making many of them rethink their decisions is like, oh, I'm suffering. Exactly. And now it's, now I have a problem. I know.

It was okay if other people suffered. But now, you know, it's my husband that's lost his job or doesn't get back paid because he works for the federal government. Right. It's, I'm standing in line at food, you know, at a food bank or something. I know. Now suddenly I care. That's what's very conflicting for me because there are some activists who will say, like, by the way, it's coming to you next. And it's like, I'm like, but you, it shouldn't have to come to you next.

Yeah, exactly. But then I also understand in some cases, like, is that the only way to get those people to care? So then like, do we kind of need that message out there? Maybe. I agree. It shouldn't have, every time I see those kind of quotes, I'm like, it shouldn't have had to come to you for you to care about it. I agree. But at the same time, I will say, you know, it is like, you know, so you don't have, let's say you're someone who doesn't have empathy for,

for families that are suffering financially because you haven't suffered financially. But now you are suffering financially. Now you're going through it. And so the thing is about that is that now you will care. You know what I mean? So, I mean, I say that because like, you know, I mentioned earlier that, you know, my family had done some work at, you know, families that were living in motels and but you know what?

We did that after a period of, like I was out of work for like a year and a half. and I did have to go stand in a line and get food from a food bank, right? Yeah. And so it was like I didn't even know those, I didn't know what it was like. You know, I didn't feel that pain. I didn't know what it was like. But man, once you know what it's like, wow. Now you can't really stand by when you see other people suffering the way you have suffered.

And you only know that pain because you felt that pain yourself, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, ideally it would be wonderful if everybody could just, right um have compassion for their fellow human being because we're human beings but but but the truth is like sometimes you have to suffer in a certain way so that now you understand what that suffering is like right now you're like okay I now I get it I because I felt it and and so in other words I guess there's there is hope I guess down the road um as more people experience some suffering maybe their empathy will enlarge and their ability to feel the pain of others will also enlarge.

Yeah, I agree. I feel like that that's what has, we've kind of been joking that 2025 has been my to Jesus year because the more I've read about Jesus, I'm like, wait, I agree with, I agree with everything he says. Jesus is great, yeah. Yeah, it's what everyone else was telling me. Yeah. do i i love i love anyone who is saying like we should all we should all care about each other we should

take care of people who are less fortunate and i think i think there are some christians who i've spoken with who who did vote for this who i think some of them to have such a belief that the church can't take care of everyone because they are someone who is doing that yeah and i and i love them for that. But that was a realization I was kind of going through is I'm like, I think they don't understand how many other, I say in quotation mark, Christians aren't doing what they're doing. And like the government does have to help people more than thinking the church can do it. Right. Yeah. I agree with you on that. Like, you know, I heard that argument all the time. Well, the church should be the one doing it. Then why doesn't the church do it? Exactly.

Exactly. The church makes in America billions of dollars. And the statistics are that like more than 90, at least 90%, but probably more, 90% of what they collect goes back to the church to, you know, buy a bigger building and get flat screen plasma televisions for the, you know, the coffee bar and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Like it's most of the money spent on itself. I had a friend, gosh, I wish he had done this. This was years ago. I had a friend who wanted to introduce legislation. He had a friend who was in the Senate or something. And he wanted to introduce legislation that basically would say that churches could not claim tax exempt status

if they didn't spend a certain percentage of their annual tithe money on the community that they were actually in. You see, that makes too much sense. I think that would be beautiful. I would support that in a heartbeat. Yes. You don't get to call yourself a non-profit. if you're not actually doing any good for single moms in your neighborhood or kids that, you know, need after school programs or whatever, you know, elderly people that are, that are shut-ins and

need food and things like this, or just someone to visit them. Like, if the church should, the church should do that if they want a taxism status. Otherwise, the taxing them status is just so the pastor, you know, can have a vacation home or something. Yeah. Yeah. It's nuts. Yeah. Yeah, it is that there was this social.

experiment that just went kind of viral where a woman called I can't remember. Yeah, so many churches. I think 50 or more and only two were willing to give her like $20 or help her buy baby formula and it was a Muslim

mosque and it was a black AME church. No one else said yes. So like that was the example to me. We're like there are Christians in my life who are serving and I think they I think they really did believe that like the church could take care of people maybe because

they're in a more loving church than a lot of them. But more, more by and large, I'm like, that's not what's happening. And so we do need the government to help take care of these people. Most churches are not doing that. I wish they were. I think they should be. I think they should be. Yeah.

That just makes so much sense. But they're not. Yeah. That's rough. Well, I'm so happy I got to talk with you. I really want to read through your back. list. So I've got a lot of reading to do. Okay. But it's people talking about the Bible this way that are giving me hope right now. So I'm really glad we got connected and I got to read it. And thank you for

talking with me about it. Thank you so much.