Bookwild - Since She's Been Gone by Sagit Schwartz: Disordered Eating, The Opioid Crisis and Mother-Daughter Bonds

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

This week, I talk with Sagit Schwartz about how she integrated her own experiences with her mother, eating disorders AND the opioid crisis into her emotional, action-packed thriller Since She's Been Gone!SynopsisCan we ever truly know the people we love?Losing her mother to a hit-and-run at age 15 threw Beatrice “Beans” Bennett’s life into turmoil. Bereft, she developed a life-threatening eating disorder, and went through a challenging recovery process which paved the way for her work as a clinical psychologist decades later. When a new patient arrives at her office and insists that Beans’s mother is still alive—and in danger—Beans is forced to revisit her past in order to uncover the truth. She learns the “patient” is a member of a notorious family that owns a drug company largely responsible for the national opioid epidemic, and that her mother was once tangled in their web. In a race against time—and her mother’s assailants—while once again facing the disorder she thought she’d put behind her, Beans discovers that, like herself, her mother had a devastating secret. With its fast-moving, edge-of-your-seat action and intimate look at mental health, Since She’s Been Gone will keep readers in its grasp long after the last page. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Sagate Schwartz about her debut thrillers since she's been gone, which was just such a perfect balance of emotional and thrilling. And I could not put it down. It's about Beatrice Beans Bennett, who lost her mother to hit and run at age 15, and it threw her life into turmoil. Breft, she developed a life-threatening eating disorder and went through a challenging recovery process, which paved the way for her work as a clinical psychologist decades later. When a new patient arrives at her office and insists that Bean's mother is still alive and in danger,

Beans is forced to revisit her past in order to uncover the truth. She learns the patient is a member of a notorious family that owns a drug company largely responsible for the national opioid epidemic and that her mother was once tangled in their web. In a race against time and her mother's assailants, while once again facing the disorder, she thought she'd put behind her. Beans discovers that, like herself, her mother had a devastating secret. I absolutely loved this book so much. I was so invested. There are dual timelines. One timeline is very emotionally driven. One plays out like an action thriller, which you all know

how much I love that. And so it was just really exciting getting to talk to Saggy about the inspiration behind the novel, how her own mom played into the writing of this book and why she wanted to write a thriller that talks about eating disorders. So let's get into it. Before we kind of get into the book, I wanted to get to know a little bit about you. And when did you know that you wanted to be an author or when were you like, I have a book that I need to write? Well, I'm a licensed psychotherapist and I always loved stories, telling stories. And when I transitioned, I practiced for about a decade. When I transitioned to writing, I was writing in Hollywood and then do a bunch of factors. I transitioned into novel writing, decided I was going to give it a go with novel writing.

In terms of this particular story, I would say it's a confluence of factors. My book features a protagonist in eating disorder recovery, and as a clinician, I noticed that that was a mental health issue, largely left out of adult contemporary fiction. Found in Y.A. occasionally, and more so now in N.A., new adult, so like 18 to 20, but in terms of adult contemporary fiction, not that common. And it affects so much of the population. Right. So just there seemed to be a deficit there.

And I thought I could write a thriller that would also serve as a piece of advocacy as well. And the feedback that I've gotten from readers so far who have read early arc, some who have been in recovery for a long time, some parents with children in recovery, older people who struggle with eating issues. It's been apparent to me that this really actually is important because representation matters. And there's plenty of fiction books out there that deal with

depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, addiction. this issue has not been touched on that much. As for the thriller component, that's all that I consume. Thriller and mysteries and detective stories, both in fiction and the screen. So of course I was going to write a thriller. Yeah, yeah, you definitely did. And to both of those points, what I thought was really, cool about the book was that it is told in multiple timelines and so when we're in the past we are

with beans or beatrice while she's actively like in treatment for her eating disorder and like really going through it and so it really helps inform what's happening in the present timeline but like it was like I've heard about eating disorders I've heard like people who's like podcast I listen to will talk about it. But this was like so much of the like very nitty gritty details of like how much it controls their lives. And so I feel like you really took your time showing that in the past timeline. But in the present timeline, it is still the very like fast moving thriller plot that we're used to. So you kind of have like this big compassion for her and understanding for her. So you really did do both of those things so well. I really loved that. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Yeah. I also wanted to show that like addiction, you can be in recovery from an eating disorder and then go through certain periods in your life decades later where some of the thoughts might bubble up. And it's not a catastrophe, but just to kind of normalize that. So people aren't frightened if they, you know, start having intrusive thoughts all of a sudden decades later.

And my protagonist. who lost her mom when she was 15, which is when her eating disorder surfaced. I'm not giving anything away because it's the first two pages of the book. Now she's a grown woman. She's 41. And a new patient sets up an appointment early of the morning and shows up and says, oh, hey, your mom is still alive and in danger.

And that sets off the entire book and her journey to uncover what really happened to her mom 26 years prior. But in doing so, some of those old behaviors and thoughts resurface become triggered because this is incredibly traumatic time in her life. And restricting was how she dealt with things in the past. And so those kind of thoughts come back. I also wanted to write a story in terms of, and I won't hit it any harder in terms of the recovery aspect, but just that recovery is possible. I wanted to write a hopeful message because so eating disorders thrive and secrecy and shame and more people talk about it, reach out to others.

That doesn't give them the gasoline to keep running. It kind of like displays the balloon. Yes. So I wanted to write a hopeful story. about recovery, that it is possible, but also a real one, you know. I think there is a problem in the media. Oftentimes eating disorders are portrayed in a glamorous way or aspirational because you're a fatphobic society. And, you know, when people are thin, they are held up to be idolized. And then there's also the issue that, which I mentioned in the book, that most people affected by eating disorders are actually not thin.

Yes. By societal standards. And so then you're being rewarded for losing weight when you have an active eating disorder. Yes. So, you know, just trying to recalibrate this conversation to insert it into. fiction there have been a lot of memoirs but as i said many examples of adult contemporary fiction features this yeah yeah it was fascinating go go yeah yeah it was fascinating for me because i was reading at a at a time where i'm trying to very actively work on some shame thoughts that the

i i have oCD basically so that's even you mentioned that in the book that that even runs really similar with eating disorders. So I get stuck ruminating or in obsessive thought cycles. And some of mine have a lot to do with shame that then creates anxiety in me. So I was at that point, still at this point, this was like a couple weeks ago. But I'm very actively trying to separate the voice in my head and be like, that's not me. And I think my shame thoughts for a long time have convinced me that they're responsible and that they like keep me responsible or they keep me safe or something like around something close to that. So the way that you kind of like personified her eating disorder as like a voice that was talking to her that was saying like this is the

only way you feel safe is like because I'm here. I thought that was so helpful. I don't know if I I don't know if that's something that is like directly what people experience or if you kind of made a choice to kind of personify it that way. But it was helping me a lot too even just as I was reading because it's something that I'm trying to kind of actively like separate from like I have these thoughts, but these thoughts aren't me myself. Yes. I thought that was really helpful. I, you know, I think as a clinician, and that goes with any kind of thoughts, whether it's. OCD-related thoughts, anxiety to kind of separate yourself from those thoughts. And in my book, the eating disorder is called Ed, and it's this separate entity. And different people will relate

to their ads in different ways. Some people become, have to live with a level of it for their lives so they you know trying to beat them back and all of that doesn't necessarily work and so approaching their ed in a more oh you know friendly way like oh there you are old friend yes um i'm not we're not doing this today you know like that and then others the voices will quiet down over time but i it's mental health issues and general. I mean, we've come a long, long way in terms of destigmatization and people not carrying around as much shame as they did when I was growing up, for example, if they. But there's still, it's, you know, there's still a road ahead when it comes to all of that.

And I'm really happy to hear that you were reading it and thinking, oh, this is useful to separate my thoughts out from me, you know, my own person. These are intrusive thoughts that I didn't sign up for. Yeah. You know, I didn't choose this. I can choose how to manage it, how I approach it, but this isn't a path that I chose to be on. Yeah. And I think what you mentioned, too, is that when it's secretive, it just keeps living

inside you. That was me. Brenay Brown has some quote about like shame can only exist like when it's secretive and then when you're able to share it with other people it like takes the power out of it because so much of the shame of it is like oh what if people knew that this was happening to me

or that I think this way. I felt like that was really powerful because you've mentioned you wanted to write something that was hopeful and I understand that in some thrillers we're not going to have like super hopeful endings. I also don't feel like you made like, oh, everything's perfectly fine at the end. Like, it didn't feel like that either, but I love in thrillers where I feel like I get to go on the

journey with someone and they do get to like heal a part of themselves or understand a part of themselves more. And she did have to kind of open up to other people to be able to do that, which anyone who knows me is not laughing that that I connected with that as well. So I loved that. I loved that. I loved that that was a big part of her journey. And it's, I think it's a real one. Yeah. I think we, you can't travel this human experience without having moments where you feel ashamed

about something and then unearthing it to someone else, whether it's a therapist, a friend, a loved one. The act of that makes you feel less alone on your path. The simple act. of unearthing it, having it mirrored back to you. I mean, that's a central component of therapy, right? The therapist can mirror back your experience without shame, without judgment,

just being there to witness what you are experiencing. And that is healing. That's central to healing, actually. Yeah, it was so powerful. I did therapy for five or six years. years at the beginning of my 20s and it is there's just if you have a lot you need you want to kind of like rearrange in your mind and in your heart as well because I like to intellectualize more than go to my heart but if you have a good clinician they'll know that about you oh they did she did and they

will pull you back to the feeling right yes it was so yes it was so funny because my husband and I did it together. So it was like we would be together one week and then separate on the others. And the funny part was she would always, when it was with me, she would have to be like, Kate, how does that make you feel? Not what did you think about that? And then when it was with Tyler, she'd be like, what do you think about that? We know what you feel. What do you think about that? So that's like a good therapist. She was. She was, she was really great. She was fantastic. But it does, it does help so much when you're like the held space, like, you, It's a safe place here.

Like, let's actually explore all of it. But sometimes it's hard to, oh, I'm freezing. There we go. Sometimes it's hard to get to that space, which I think is what the book also really focuses on. Is it like Beans wasn't always ready to accept help. And her eating disorder even kind of convinced her like, I am the help. Like, you don't need help necessarily.

So that's that hard part about being in their minds. dangerous parts of, for example, restrictive anorexia. That's why it has a powerful hold on people because it can convince them that this is just, you know, this is the way to live and that everyone else has a problem. They don't have a problem. That is very rare in illnesses. When it comes to the majority, not all, but the majority of, physical and mental health issues, people want to get better.

Yeah. But when you're dealing with an illness that takes hold of a human being and convinces them that they don't have a problem and that everyone else is the issue, it makes it incredibly challenging to treat it. It is. It is. It is not impossible, but that is the reality of the illness. Yeah.

There's a really, when you were talking earlier about. kind of how it's hard. It's hard to get out of it too because if you're losing weight, you get compliments. So like it can be reinforced. There's an artist I really love, and I'll actually link it just in case this like connects with anyone. But there's an artist named Maddie Zam who has written all kinds of music. But she was, she would be, she would have been considered overweight when her career began. And then she started losing a lot of weight and then was getting all of this praise. And now she's been doing like TikToks talking about like, I'm unhealthy right now and I'm getting compliments for like I have been so obsessed with my

weight. It's the only thing I've thought about for like the whole 20 years of my life. And now I've completely obsessed over it to like lose the little bit that I could. And I'm getting complimented for it. And I want to be like, well, I don't want to thank you because I'm unhealthy. And then she also, It's crazy. She also just released, she just released a song that I thought was so powerful that was actually talking about how sometimes she feels like she doesn't want to get better because it feels like this is getting like it's a positive reinforcement. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just to be clear about how powerful that societal narrative is, I don't know if you saw the documentary Miss Americana with Taylor. Swift where she talked about her ed. And she was saying that she was going on stage after not eating for an entire day,

about to pass out and was getting praised for the house she looked. Yes. I know. So if she, like the most famous pop star on the planet is not immune to this. How are all of us managing? Yes, I agree. Because that was really illuminating. And if any one listening to this, I would just say, I think it's on Netflix.

I don't know where, but it's Miss America. I'll try to cut the part in, actually. And she talks about it. So if you're in this space and feeling badly that you are not able to withstand, you know, societal pressures. Yeah. fat phobic societal pressures. Well, Taylor Swift wasn't either.

And now she moved out of that and she is eating enough and she's not trying to get to the smallest size. And she, in fact, this tour was really powerful to see her now because she's so strong and powerful and going through and see that she came out of that. I agree. But that's just one of many examples. Yeah. Yeah. We got talking about all of this. Yes. Not the thriller part, but I think it's important. That's okay. I think this was still a very powerful part of the book as well. So I think a lot of people, even, I don't want to say everyone has eating disorders,

but I feel like a lot of people will connect with like just the social pressure to like look and be a certain way. So that's everywhere. But another, I'm kind of stealing, I'm pulling a quote that I saw from an interview you gave already. But it sounds like you were very passionate about including eating disorders in a thriller. But the other thing that I found so cool was that some of this was almost like a re-exploration of your relationship with your mom as well. Oh, so what can you tell us about that? Well, this book is a bit of a love letter to my late mom who died young. She died two weeks after her 47th birthday.

And when I turned 47, I decided I wanted to write a book to pay tribute to her. I'm eternally grateful for everything she did for me. She raised me for many years as a single mom without any help. Oh, wow. I would support nothing. she remarried when I was in high school and then died shortly after that. But so I wrote the book when I was 47, living out a year she never had. And then I sold it when I was 48.

And I just feel like I am really living this time for both of us because she didn't get the time that I have. and I included letters she wrote me when I was a young girl. The eulogy in the book of the mom is like 75% hers. She's infused. The mom's name is Irene, which was my mom's middle name. So my mom is infused in this book. And, you know, she believed in me. And even though I lost her so young, that believed.

has carried me through, gosh, decades. Ah, I'm getting emotional thinking about it. I am too. It has, it's lived inside of me for so long. And I don't think I could have written this book. And then when it was out on submission and I didn't know if it was going to get picked up, it's not like it was an active, like, thought. But inside of me, I felt like someone in this world.

has believed in me at one point. And so I carried that with me. And in all my work is a therapist, you know, if you have one person in your life, whether it's a parent, an aunt, a grandpa, a friend, if you have one person that really believes in you, it goes so far, a partner. Because this life is. It's complicated. It's hard. The world is rough. And that is, it's, it's just such an act of kindness when someone has belief in you. Yes. So this whole journey, I really felt that inside of me. And, you know, a writer's journey is so fraught. This just filled with self-doubt. Yes. It's not easy. And but, but if you have that inside of you, it makes things a little bit smoother.

So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you know there's someone outside of you who kind of see something. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And so it, you know, I, I hope that my book, that mother-daughter relationship, shit comes through. I've had several readers reach out tell me they cried at the end. Oh, yes. I was just like crying in my bedroom. Really? Oh, yeah. Yes. I was like, Tyler's going to come home and I'm going to be like, I'm okay. I'm just reading. I didn't, you know, I cried during certain parts writing it, but I never frankly thought about or dream that readers would have that response. Yeah.

So that was, that's been actually surprising people reaching out to me say, I, I never cried like that with the thriller before. Yeah. Yes. It wrecked me in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. And that shows, I guess, that if you write something that's visceral, it will, it will come

through the pages. That's what actually, since this is my first book, that's what this has taught me. They think if you feel something so deeply, it's likely it's going to touch someone else in that way. That's really cool. I'm kind of working on a book. Yeah. But after like kind of reading different like craft books and stuff and then starting to write some of it, what I thought was so cool and empowering about writing is that you can give your characters these like flaws or. traumas or like difficult things that they've been through and then you get to like write the story that like makes the traumas like how makes them the right character to overcome something else like in their present. Yes.

And I've been like that is just so powerful and like even seeing it then for myself. Like I feel like it kind of helps remind me that like but you can you can write like a different story after all the things that have happened to you as well. And it might make you the perfect character or the perfect person for some challenge. I just feel like that's so magical about writing. That's so exciting that you're working on something. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, is it fiction? Yeah, in a thriller, for sure. Oh, okay. Okay, this is really exciting. Yeah. It has been very fun. More after if you want to about that. Yeah.

Yeah. Totally. I think that's something I have. probably always loved about stories is the way that you just can experience so many other people's experiences and just like see how people moved on from it or overcame it or how like a bad thing wasn't like the end of the world for them. I think it's a really fun part about reading being a reader too. Oh, it's magical. It really is. Yeah. So what was your writing process like with this one? I went to the same cafe actually every day for like a year.

It was like a hole in the wall in a strip mall like with like two two different tables. Like no one really sat there. Mainly people would just get stuff and go. Yeah. And it just anchored me. And it's interesting because now I'm starting something new and I'm realizing I have to go somewhere else and do it somewhere else because I have so many. memories of writing this book there. So it's I actually need a whole change up now. Yeah. So that was yeah, that's what I did. I worked on it. It started out as a linear

thriller and then about eight or nine chapters and I can't remember exactly. I realize it was going to be dual timeline because chapter was half of it was it was all in the present but half I was talking about the past and I was like this actually is going to be better if I show this. Yeah. Just saying, oh, and then this happened to me when I was 15. And so I broke it out and thankfully readers seem to be responding to the dual time. Yeah. It wasn't something though that I had set out to do it just naturally evolved. And if people are listening and they're writing and, you know, I would just say be open to how things evolve because if I just said, no, I have to stick with this. Then I don't think my book actually would have had the depth that it does because I think the dual time gave it a depth that.

Yes. But so I was open to it. And though I was way into the writing the book, I was open to pivoting and changing it to a dual time. Yeah. Yeah, that's good to keep it. That's definitely good to keep in mind. So with Beans, it sounds like some of her character was coming from you and like things you've experienced. But was there anything you did to like get to know her more? Or is that kind of just like as you were writing kind of like you said, you also were like, oh, I'm going to need like her backstory to actually be dual timeline.

Did you just kind of figure that out as you were writing her? Yeah. It just evolved naturally. Yeah. And that aspect definitely, it was just a natural evolution. And then obviously, you know, she's a present-day psychologist and I'm a licensed clinician. So I was able to bring that part of my career to the table, even though we don't see her actively doing therapy that much in the book. But still, the knowledge, the language, the ability to understand what's happening to herself.

Yeah. that's the clinician in me. Yes. And there were a couple funny lines that were not like mean, spirited, but there were a few lines that made me laugh about like, she's like, oh, this is someone who I would have to be doing

this kind of reparenting with him and having been through therapy and like had that explained to me. I was definitely laughing because sometimes we'll be out in the world and we'll be like, oh, this is where this person needs like some reparenting around this. So I did like a little perspective. of that that was still in there as well.

The other thing that the main, like a big part of what's happening in the present chapters is kind of unraveling the secrets and deceptions of big pharma and the kind of stuff that they will kind of push on the public maybe before it's not ready, maybe not everyone needs to have access to it. Yeah. So how did you like, research that, kind of like bring that into it. You may have already had feelings about it from where you worked. Yeah, I think it's hard not in some way to be touched by what's happened with the

opioid crisis. And I have had readers also reach out to me about that actually, about parents addicted about their own addiction and overcoming it. I thought I would get more messages, you know, about the eating disorder. I have also had quite a few opioid related. This is, it's a national tragedy. It's obscene what happened with this one major family. But in my field, I mean, you quit. Yeah.

To prescribe something that was completely unwarranted for their injury that was not like, you know, a huge deal. So yeah. And I mean, it's gotten better. Doctors are being more prudent about it. But it's still, it's still an issue. It really is. And, you know, there's a book, the, the empire of pain.

which trapped what happened with the Sackler family. So everything that was in the news, what I experienced as a clinician, I also decided to bring it in to the book. And I think there are some useful parallels between addictions and eating disorders. Yeah. In terms of them being for some people lifelong things

that they have to keep an eye on, manage and just that it's really a genetic vulnerability that's the root cause of both. So trying to destigmatize these services when people understand that the underpinnings are genetic and that it's not a choice to, you know, be an alcoholic or be someone that has anorexia. treatment as a choice but being having these illnesses you know you have people in a room who pick up a glass of wine not all of them are going to become alcoholics but there will be one in that or not one I mean it's like whatever it is the person yeah it's a person that has a thing of like that's a genetic issue yeah yeah and then and then with like the

and stuff or drugs similar to that. I think the other big problem is that it makes a lot of money. So it's like they have enough power to kind of like block legislation or like someone actually trying to investigate it. And hiring lobbyists. Yeah. To protect their interests. Yeah.

You know, a thousand percent money is. at the root of this in terms of that epidemic. I mean, that was a family that was hell-bent on making money at the cost of many, many lives and family's lives being destroyed. So my character, when she embarks on the journey to uncover what happened to her mom, who she finds out might be alive and endangered 26 years later, she finds herself embroiled in a big farm of family that goes up to the highest levels and chains of politics.

And it was interesting because someone reached out to me and said, I normally find like political thrillers really slow and boring, but yours was really fast-paced. I would agree. I don't think it's hugely political. Right. Right. You know.

But yeah. She's like, there's a lot of action. Yeah. Yes. There was. That was what I really enjoyed about it. And I always, I talk about it on podcast all the time.

But I love books where you're, where the main character is challenging some kind of institution, like whatever it is, like churches or government issues or families who have too much money and are selling drugs to people. So I'm a sucker for that for that plot line. And I really, I love to being like, okay, okay. Like can can we take them down? Can we do it? And there is. There's so much action in the present timeline. Like it feels like you're reading an action thriller when you're in that one for sure. Yeah. Well, those are the books that I like to read. I like the ones where like I legitimately and ignoring at like actively ignoring my family. my responsibilities. Like I'll put in my AirPods and pretend that I'm like talking to someone. Yes.

So family leaves me one. But I'm actually like listening to the book or whatever. Yes. You know, I might switch between print and listening just so I could get through it. Like I love those books. I love those books. Just make me ignore everything. So of course I set out to write something that was a page turner.

Like, oh my God, what's going to happen next? What? Yes. Why? What is going on? Is her mom alive? Why would she still be like, who would just leave their kid for 20? Like, what happened? Yes. Yeah. I really enjoyed that part of it. You definitely pulled that off. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. I also, you know, and this is something to keep in mind for you, nowadays in this attention economy where people have so many distractions, myself included, I could be like, I'm going to watch a show and then I get on TikTok in an hour later, I'm like, what am I doing? Stop it. Yeah. I know. And you get sucked in. So you really,

you're, is a writer, you're competing with people's attention spans and where they're going to gravitate towards. So I think you, it's important to write things that will like grab people. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because that's what I love. I love when I am. I am, sometimes I'm like, am I a pacing snob? Like, because I just want things to be happening. but if if the pacing feels like there's just stuff I'm getting new information and it's changing like I if I didn't have a family and dogs around me I could probably read for like six hours uninterrupted at a time it's more the dogs and the husband that caused some of the interruptions now right right yeah one of the dogs just trying to have a conversation with us but I think he was

far enough away from the mic so hopefully no one had to hear him barking here a second ago but you you said that you are an avid reader too that you love reading and so i always ask at the end what you've been reading lately that you loved the let um well or in general what you've loved um i read recently uh Lisa well i actually that one I listened to uh Lisa jules's latest uh none of this none of this is true and none of this is true and none of this is true That was a fantastic audio book, by the way. Ooh, that's good to know. I think that you would appreciate it as a podcaster because there's a whole podcast element.

And the audio is recorded in. Oh, that's so smart. It's really interesting. They record it so that the podcast is sounding a certain way. And it's highly produced. That is really cool. As a podcaster, I kind of think it's a necessary. book to read is a podcaster who loves i read it i haven't listened to the audio though i've read it i've read it

oh yeah oh yeah it is so good they have the music they have the whole thing with oh my gosh that is awesome and they have different character actors for each characters and it's really interesting that is great i had only before then tried one other lisa jule book uh then she was gone and i was so I tried listening to it. I got about 20 or 30 percent. It was so scary listening to it that I got too scared. I couldn't finish. I think that one,

if I had done the physical, it would have worked better. A little more detached. But hearing the young girl's voice, all that, I had to stop and look up what happened. I've never had that happen with the book that I got too scared. She is young, though.

That would be really, that would be very different to be hearing it. right right yeah yeah and the ending's pretty heavy yeah um and then recently i read just because it was all over instagram like for like two weeks it was like the only thing i saw um uh the the the reese witherspoon book club pick this month the lies i tell yeah oh i love that yeah that one i read so yeah i i love like the, you know, just the con artist that, you know, I get, I, I love con artist. I get, I don't know why. I have a sucker for con artist books, TV shows, movies, all of it.

Yeah, yeah. So those were the last two that I, the last two books that I read. And I have a very close indie author friend, J.L. Hi. I don't know if you've read any of her books. She's such a good writer. And she has a new book coming out next week. And she just, she has a bunch of books, like seven books out. She has a new book coming out next week.

And she, I'm lucky enough that she sent it to me. It's part of a series. Grady Lake was the first one. This is this one that's going to be out is called Secrets of Grady. but she has a, if you look her up, she's got a lot of books and diehard fans on TikTok and Instagram, a very following of, and deserve it of people. So that's going to be my next book, because lucky enough that she sent me the PDF and I can't wait to read it. I, she. I love her covers. Her covers are amazing. But what I love about her is that,

her no one does place like her like place is its own character for her that's cool in michigan i mean it's just you are there you are so and it's always a murder mystery yeah i just i love her book so that that will be my next read that's exciting i mean she's going to be one of my next reads now too oh good good yeah these are great they're real I'm excited. Yeah, she's so talented. Yeah, it sounds like it. Where can people follow you so they can stay up to date? Are you ready?

Oh, I have, yeah, thank you. I have a website, S-A-G-I-T-S-H-H-W-A-R-T-Z.com. I'm on Instagram at Sagee Schwartz. I'm on threads at Sagee Schwartz on TikTok. I'm at SIGEet writer, S-A-G-I-T-Rater. And I'm pretty active on all three platforms. Yeah. I mean, it's it's so strange as a writer because you you have to write, right? And then social media, you've got to let people know you exist too. Right. So, you know, being active on platforms while at the same time making sure that you keep your writing time precious is so important. It's just so, it's so important. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I will put all of those links in the show notes so that people can keep following along with everything that you're writing and doing and all of that.

And you keep touch with me about your book. Oh, I will. I really will. Please don't hesitate to reach out. Yeah, thank you. Really. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me today. I love talking with you. It was so lovely. So it was so fun. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking some of your time to talk about it.

No, this is the joy of my day. That's, oh my gosh, that's amazing. So, thank you. You will, hopefully I will see you on another episode here maybe too. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm working on it. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Between the Lines.

And if you did, the biggest thing you can do to support the podcast is to go rate and review it on whatever platform you listen on. You can also follow me on Instagram at The Girl with the Book on the couch. And if you still need more thrillers in your life, check out Killing the Tea. my other podcast where I talk to my friend Gare about literally everything we read.