Bookwild - Sinners Reactions and Analysis with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

This week, MacKenzie Green and I dive into everything we loved about Sinners. We dive into Ryan Coogler's succinct visual storytelling, how he tackled the themes of religion, spirituality and race, and how social horror paired with humor comes together so well.Follow MacKenzie hereListen to Manifestation Monday hereTikToks I mentionedSeven Deadly Sins from TheReel VoiceVampires Needing to Be Invited BrandonToksMoviesSammy's Ability to Connect With People is What the Devil Wanted from 5hahemRacism hurts White Couple Too from TheJaam  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

So this week, I am with McKinsey Green and we, she's been on here before. You guys know her hopefully. But you've also probably heard me reference her a little bit. She also has a really cool podcast called Manifestation Monday or is it called a podcast or you guys just call it a series. Yeah, we're just, yeah, it's just a series on Patreon. So if you've heard me talking about how all of a sudden I thought that I could manifest something with Book Wild, this is who I was talking about. And if you want to hear more about that, I'll just put the link in the show notes. You guys can go directly there.

I mean, basically, I'm just Annie. Yes, you really are. Doing hoodoo and making things happen. You really are. Yes. So we are going to be talking about sinners, which you probably already saw from the title, but that's also what she was just referencing with Annie, who's one of the most badass characters in the entire movie in so many different ways.

But I just love, I just loves the movie. movie and I wanted to talk about it. So I posted and I was like, who wants to talk about it? And because he's like, I will. And I was like, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's one of those movies that if like a stranger was like, hi, I have a podcast. Would anyone, I'd be like, hi, hi, you've never met me. I'd love to talk about this with you. Yeah, it's, wow, what a masterpiece of a film. So good. I was hoping I was going to be able to go see it again because at this point, I saw it, what, over 10 days ago. So I was hoping I could fit it back in.

But I didn't. But I feel like TikTok as well has kept it in the front of my brain. I very much am a film nerd. And so I wanted to see it in 70mm iMacs. As you know, there was only one theater in the state of Indiana showing it that way. Because when this came out, I was in Indiana. And truly, it came down to my mom being like, do you want to see the movie? or you want to see it in a certain way.

And I was like, you know what, screw it. Let's just see the movie. And I had hoped to see it here in L.A. that way because I saw Oppenheimer in that aspect ratio and it was mind-blowing. I did not. So similar to yourself, I'm like, well, when Apple tells me that they have the movie for $20 to buy, to be quite frank, I'm just going to go ahead and buy it. Because I imagine this will be, I'm a scaredy cat.

And so rarely do I find, like, quote-unquote horror films that I can, like, engage with on a regular basis. So I think this will be, this will be one that enters the rotation for me. Totally. I agree. And it's, it's interesting because it kind of,

like the horror part hits kind of later as well. I think that's probably some of it. Like it's, it's definitely, and it's not gratuitous violence. But you know what I will say from a very Jordan Peel perspective? Yes. There is an element of horror.

I think if you are a certain audience member, that is still present from the second it starts. Like that small, like even just those wide shots of the sharecroppers in the cotton field. Like I was like, scary, scary, scary, scary, what's about to happen? Scary, spooky scary. And then you're like, well, the scary hasn't happened yet. McKenzie, like I still found myself being like, ooh, spooky, oaky. I don't like that.

And you're like, oh, wait, no, this is just their day-to-day lives as sharecroppers. And it's that, that social horror aspect. Yes. It's like what you're seeing the more of the literal social horror in the first half. and then like the traditional or like bloody vampire horror. Yeah, I think, you know, and obviously with this being like a book podcast, it's like I think of so many kind of books in that world I've read before where it's like, I mean, the immediate one that comes to mind is Bunny by Mona Awad where it's like where it starts

and you're kind of like, well, when's it going to get scary? Like people keep saying it's scary. And you're like, well, the scary is starting out with like a young woman in college just trying to navigate like making friends and fun. finding people. But I think like the other part of it and people have talked about this, it's very like beloved. It's very Tony Morrison-esque in the way that it's like, like you said, the social horror of like, first let's just root you in Jim Crow South and like how nerve-wracking this feels uncomfortable. Like even those moments where they're talking to the guy that owns the

juke joint building and you're like, well, what's about to go on here? Like, you know, or the the kind of anticipatory shot of going with Bo from the black general store to the white general store where Grace is and then coming back. It's like they create tension in just life existing. Yes. And so you're kind of like, oh, and I know people kept saying like, it starts slow. I'm like, it doesn't start slow. Like what are we talking about? Yeah. I know. because like when I got done I was actually I just recorded a podcast with one of my friends who's a writer I guess I'm a writer too even though I haven't finished my book so I should say us but we were talking about um she was in a webinar that talked about how there's so much more processing power that goes

into a writer or in this case like a well he is writer director yeah he is writer director producer all the things yeah um in creating the world and in creating scenes and then it takes less processing power for readers to consume it. And so I was telling her it reminded me if Stephen King has a quote that's like, write everything that is the story, tell yourself the story, and then remove the parts that aren't the story. And so we were talking about like how concisely you can say things. And that was when I left the theater, I was like, I can't believe that was only a two-hour movie.

Yes. Because I think was- chose to show things. Because I think what's funny is like having to have seen Oppenheimer that was a meaty, beefy, well over three hour film. And you were kind of like, oh, we covered everything. All right. Okay. Wow. You know, and it's like, and I love superhero films. And I found myself being like, I remember looking at the runtime and being like, there's no way. There's no way. There's no way. There's no possible way. And I think what I found really interesting is at the top, how succinctly he explains what a grillo is. First of all, I have to give myself a humble brag. So I made that video about

what it's like to be Ernest Green's daughter. Yes. And one of the people, even that was such a, like, go ahead. Sorry. I was going to say, but what, so one of the things that happened when I first made that video is Tarana Burke, the Taranaburk, like commented on it because I was basically saying that like Imani Perry, the way she ties and weaves the story. It reminds me a little bit of how Ryan Coogler did it in this in this book using the color blue as a motif to tell this story was the most breathtaking thing ever. And so then like Tarada Burke Commons and she was like, yes, every generation needs a griot. That was the first time I'd ever heard that term. And I was like, yeah, because Imani Perry is that person. She was like, and you are too. And I was like, oh, my God.

Now mind you at the time, I was just like, thanks so much. Then to see that movie. And it opens with the story of like through, you know, these centuries and generations and cultures there is a grillo and they are the ones that hold like the past, the present and the future in themselves. When I tell you, I said, oh, so Taranaburk thinks I'm magical. I'm Sammy. Okay, cool. Yeah. Like, I was just like, oh my God, guys, I don't know how to tell you all. I think I might be important. Like, it was hilarious. Like, sitting in the theater, my mom's like, please, what are you doing? Like, why are you teasing so hard next to me? But, like, I thought he's, Like to be able to explain such a huge part of the story in a like 90 second explanation that you're like, okay, got it.

Cool. Yeah. And it just totally made all the sense in the world. You're like, okay, cool, cool. Like it wasn't this long 30 minute piece that involved like showing these. No, it was just like wood carvings. Here you go. Now let's begin the story.

Yeah. And like I said, what even made it even more kind of mind blowing. is to start the story with the end. Yes. Was like, I love when books, like, that's part of the reason I'm obsessed with Adam Higginbotham's Challenger is because he starts the book with the challenger explosion and then tells the story from the beginning. And so, like, there was something about seeing Sammy. And even though your brain logically is like, it's the daytime. I know this is a movie about vampires.

He's here. He's walking in. I still was kind of like, what if he's a thing? vampire like when he entered the church or something and I'm like you don't even know who this person is like what's happening in the story so yeah then for it to take off from there I was like whoa whoa I know I really love that it's reminding me I don't know I think you and I had a conversation about it but I don't know if you saw monkey man last year I heard it kind of does that same thing where it like establishes the legend like what you're saying so like the first the first scene is like explaining what the

monkey man has meant to those cultures and like kind of like even the hero arc of this figure that's important to them and then we get into all that. Exactly. And then there you go, Jordan Peel. Monkey Man is so you're just like, oh, okay. You guys are just telling stories better than all of us. Got it. Yes. Thank God, Jordan Peel. Because that, I don't know if you knew, that movie almost went straight to Netflix. Yeah. It almost was not in a theater and Jordan saw it and was like, no, we need to get this in the theater. When I saw that after I saw the movie, I was, was like, yeah. Thank you so much. I think what I love about Ryan Cuehler. So I was introduced to Ryan Cougler through Fruitvale Station. And I was like a teenager, when to see that movie,

it broke my heart. Like I constantly say that movie radicalized me because it was the film I saw and I saw it with my parents of all people. I still remember the theater we saw it in, the Chevy Chase Theater. Like I remember truly being so mad and angry. because I knew nothing about this man's story. I knew, and to watch, I think even for my parents to watch my disappointment at the end to be like, so that's like, what, why? And then listening to my dad be like, there is no why. And you're like, but I don't understand. Like, what do you mean there is no why?

And so I think that's when I fell in love with he and Michael as a team. Then Michael went off and did a bunch of random rom-coms. And I was like, what? Why is he in a movie? Fon the guy for Fruitvale Station? Like, what is going on? So then I just very much was like, I'm not, I guess I'm not a Michael B. Jordan fan.

Even though people were like, I love him. He's so cute. Right. And so then when Black Panther was announced, which to me was like the most important sounding thing to my little blurred heart and they were like, and Ryan Coogler is directing and people were like,

who is Ryan Coogler? I was like, what do you mean? Who is Ryan Coogler? Like, this is Fruitvale Station. Like this is him. And I think that's why I was so surprised that people were like for such a young upstart director to get such a large franchise. But a buddy of mine... He was like the youngest ones ever

direct Marvel. And a buddy of mine and I were talking about this who works in film and TV and we were saying like the spot they got in the release calendar is not an admirable one you want. Like they... Was it sinners or was it? Black Panther.

That we were like, it was placed in the calendar in the slate for Disney in a way that indicated we don't think it's going to like do crazy numbers but we like we don't want to set it up for failure kind of thing and I think that's what's so funny is to then watch this man like

you know and we talk about this I mean again books talk about this the movie talks about all this like how the line got moved that all of a sudden a quote unquote upstart director makes a billion dollar film and people are like well it's a Marvel movie right and you're like well how what How did the line get moved so quickly for him, where now all of a sudden it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, see the box office.

It doesn't matter like that. It's just because it's Marvel. And you're like, there's a whole lot of other Marvel movies that have come out since that have been bad. That aren't good stories that don't have a billion dollars. And I think he has such a care and intention with how he directs. Like I think somebody pointed out, we'll get into it on here, but like the significance of 1992 that you realize. the care he takes because that is that's the the la riots that's the killing of rodney king and like that he continues to make this an inflection point in the kind of budding out tourism that is

ryan cougler that it's like we'll always touch on that year in some way shape or form and i think like i think and i think what makes sinners such a clear thing is like when you watch black panther too the care and consideration he takes of having namor become now and like an indigenous Mexican as tech kind of man and like this use of this language and the fact that Homeboy was like I went to scuba school. I trained with like the seals like so that I could be underwater

filming this. He was like I didn't know how to swim and he's just so he's so fascinating to me because like I really think when all is said and done like the way we talk about like Spielberg Scorsese Lucas like all these people. I think think he will be in that conversation one day. He better be. He, and that's my thing. It's like, he better be.

Because if he's not, then it speaks volumes to what he's writing about. Even the things he writes about the things he is experiencing in a way. Like, you know, not to always take all roads back to Beyonce, but it's like, I remember. I remember once. Yeah. I was saying to somebody once, because I was. And I made a video about it where I was saying when you when people do that very stupid like Taylor Swift versus Beyonce I'm like let's talk about it. What we're talking about is Taylor Swift takes the personal and makes it communal.

Nobody will ever know what it's like to date a Hollywood actor when they're 17. But what they do know and she can take a very personal experience is what it's like to have your heartbroken by a boy that you thought loved you. Yes. On the flip side though, Beyonce takes the communal communal and makes it personal. and if you are not a part of that community you have like Taylor truly like Taylor truly is like here's my personal experience here it is for the community

and Beyonce is like here is a very communal experience of colorism of misogy noir of whatever and I'm gonna make the most personal song or the most personal album like lemonade right of like what it is like to feel betrayal as a black woman and I'm going to make this so, so, so, so personal. Yeah.

That if you don't touch the community to which I am speaking of, you will be so lost. Yeah. And it's like, and I think that's why it's funny, like post-Cochella when people were, like, I saw like one tweet where somebody was like, I got to say, guys, I loved Gaga Chella. Like, Beyonce is such a good dancer. And like, I love that Beechella was like a really great dance performance. but like Gaga really told a story and I was like that's my point guys is like not paying attention yeah I was like Beyonce told a very specific story about HBCUs the pride that HBCUs provide to black folks and truly

if you do not know what you are looking at you are going to sit in that audience and go wow she's a great dancer yeah like if you've never like I remember um we had Tina Knowles for an event for work and she's I know she she was it recently it was last year it was last year it was last year for power play for Marie Claire and she was coming towards me. Oh my God. And I was talking to my team and she was walking towards me and I was staying very calm talking to my team telling them in the instructions they needed to know for the thing that was happening.

And the minute I knew she was behind me, I started freaking out to their faces. I was like like silently screaming and I was just like. And then I had to like sit on the ground. They were like, are you okay? I was like, I'm unwell. The way I just had to keep it professional. But I remember she was on stage and she said that somebody in the crowd when she started singing, lift every voice and sing, said like, oh, is that a new song?

And Tina said she even told Beyonce before B.Cella. She said, honey, the audience is not majority black. Like, what are you? It's a lot of white folks out there. Like, honey, they're going to be confused. And that Beyonce was like, they have Google. Right. And I think that's a little bit of like,

how I would describe Ryan Coogler is like, yes, it's like he very much is like, listen, if you watch this and you don't understand why there's no, you know, Latino representation in this, I need you to Google 1930s Mississippi Delta

and to understand where all the Latino people went, all the Mexicans went. They left because of the racism in the Mississippi Delta. Because by that point, they had been in America and been like, oh, this is awful. We are going west. And it was like, if you don't understand the,

the backstory of, you know, Chinese Americans in the Mississippi Delta during Jim Crow, I'm sorry, you're going to have to Google when this is over. Like, if you don't understand. And I didn't 100% know either. Likewise. I was aware of it. Like, I am the product of it.

You know, my grandmother, people for my entire life have always teased me about how in the world is your grandmother, Asian, Native American, and black. And I said, I don't know. Talk to the people that made the railroads. That's my understanding. We didn't ask to all be here at one time, but here we are. We didn't want to be there the way we were.

And I said, because people truly have always tease me about like, okay, so where did the Asian part come in if she's from Kentucky? And I'm like, history, displacement, immigration, the railroad, being allowed to work side by side. Like, I don't know how to explain. it any better way. And I think the same thing where it's like the Irish part of it, it's like, if you're just like, well, vampires are usually from Transylvania. It's like I, you're going to have to Google. You're going to have to read a book. You're going to have to learn about the colonizing of Ireland. Because that's been something new. I've learned over the years of like unpacking. I think oftentimes when we're like unpacking inherent bias, I realize I had a lot of like misconceptions

about Irish people in Ireland, specifically Ireland. Because, and again, people can call me ignorant. But I, really, when you watch these movies, because, you know, Pierce Broson's always playing somebody from IDF in a movie. And I just was under the impression that they were just, they were just, Irish people just setting stuff on fire in the UK, just setting bombs off for no reason. Yeah. And so when Queen Elizabeth died and they were celebrating, I said, wait, wait.

They wrote. I forgot about it. I said, mom, why are they so happy? I said, what? Or when Charles was like something to the effect where I think he was like, and Northern Ireland. And I said, why are people so pissed? My mom was like, oh, you don't know.

Yeah. And I was like, what do you mean? I don't know. And she was like, you need to look this up. Or like, I didn't know why Paul Mezcal was like, this is all been new to me when Paul. He was cheering the memes. Yeah. Then sharing the memes or like, but then to learn about it, you're like, well, of course he was at the premiere for Gladiator and William comes.

And he was like, I'm not shaking your hand. You know, because it's like, and I think especially as a black person, I am very, I'm very, I have a desire to understand my brothers and sisters having the same experience in other parts of the world. So to then understand. Because again, you go on TikTok and you're like solo travel as a black. women, safe places to go. And people would always be like, Ireland, girl, you got to go to Ireland. There is no better place to go as a black woman by yourself, like, you know, or black people making videos. And I was like, really? And yeah, that just led me down this rabbit hole. But you realize, like, it's like, it's not a knock on a Scorsese or a, you know, Chris Nolan or anybody.

Hell, it's not a knock on a Taylor Swift or Lady Gaga. It's just these black artists are making such a different an intentional level of performance art with the stuff they do, that you just sit there and you're like, wow, I'm really lucky you made this. Yeah. And that I get to see this. Yes. Yes. Which kind of brings me to one of the, one of the, whatever, cool, one of the, one of the cool

story structures within the movie as well is there, I was seeing people like debate. like Sammy summoned the devil because of the music. And it's like, did he do that or was like his power to connect with his ancestors, the people there, the people in the future was the devil attracted to that because he wants to be able to. I think what is that scene in particular, the juke joint scene. The one shot. Yeah, the one shot.

Yes. I there have been a handful of times there have been scenes in cinema that I have watched it and been like damn it's good to be black damn like oh my yeah like like it's one of those things where I'm like oh yeah I get it I would hate from outside of the club too if it looked this good you can't get in like I was like oh my God hot damn because there's something so beautiful yes because I I I do think, and it's interesting, because again, as a fan of hip hop, as a fan of like, my daddy love jazz and blues and all that stuff, when you're sitting with people and they're just like, I don't get rap. And you're like, well, it's an incredible linguistic art form that is like, it's truly one of the few American forms of music. Or people are like, how dare, again, Beyonce, how dare she make a country album?

You are not, you are not country. That like within like the same two weeks. Or you've got Ken or you've got Kendrick making his music and people are like they're not like us. I don't who's the us you're talking about Kendrick and to watch that scene how beautifully Ryan Coogler is like let me tell you what you make fun of these girls for twerking. Guess where it came from. Let me show you an app like a pure African tribal dancer that doesn't look. any different from this young girl twerking in the corner. Let me show you Bootsie Collins playing guitar next to somebody playing like fiddle,

next to Sammy playing the blues next to this person. Like it was just, it was one of those most, like it really is. Like for me, again, the Ryan Cougler scenes, it was that scene. And the other one that like to this day still takes my breath away is a coyer on top of the car. spear through the hood of the car in this red dress with everything flowing behind her staring down the barrel of the camera to go attack someone like there are a handful of times where I've just been like yeah yes being black is dangerous but it's lit like I just it was just something and I think to your point when people are like oh his music summon the devil what the

I at least in my opinion what the movie is trying to say is a talent a someone with that kind of gift to show you the beauty of the past, the present, and the future, no matter how it is packaged. And I think particularly blackness, because I think it's a choice that Ryan shows the scenes of the griot through Chinese culture, indigenous culture, and black culture. And I think what he's saying is there is something so inherently beautiful within these cultures of the stories they tell, told, and will tell that there are people who want to extract and take everything from it in a almost demonic, possessive, disgusting kind of way by any means necessary.

Because like that's the thing, right? It's like Remick says to say, I just... I don't say, which brings us to why vampire was like the right... was just the perfect. Oh, it was just part, because if it had been anything else. Yeah. But like the symbolism of him just being like, I want you. I want your stories.

I want your mind. I want what you have. I want your gift. And earlier in the movie, having Slim say to Sammy, you know, they love the blues, but they hate us. Yeah. You know, it's like, and I have said that many times of people is like, like, Like black people, they love black people's rhythm, but they hate our blues. Like, my God in heaven, do people love to have a boxer braid and never give a credit, like, and never call it a corn row?

Or do they, or do you talk to somebody? And you know this, like with the food conversation, they love to tell you like, oh, my family, you know, my mama makes the best fried chicken in the world. And you're like, you ever asked your mother where she got the recipe from, where her mother got it from, her mother got it. you know because having to have also just come off of reading they were her property that was like a really like that stuck in my head is this kind of yeah is this foundation of and it's not just the south because that line that stack says when sammy's like isn't chicago amazing kind of thing and he's like child it's just the south with taller buildings and i'm like thank you yeah thank you especially especially at that time yeah not that it's not that it's

not still. Yeah, but I think that's the beauty of a film of what Ryan Cougler's doing is like, you can watch it now in 2025. And people say lines in that movie that I'm like, ain't that the truth. Oh, yeah, that's correct right now. You know, it's like, and it almost, and I'm like, it should be embarrassing to us that things in that movie ring true now. But yeah, I just, I think there's, I, Remick is a brilliant, brilliant. brilliant villain. Yes. Yeah.

So that's what I was going to bring up a couple of things about him because we were kind of talking about that, the scene when he wants to come in for the first time. And so first of all, I saw it. And I'm going to credit people when I got the ideas from them. But there was a podcast clip from Brandon Talks Movies. Okay. But he was talking about the brilliance of like vampires needing. to ask to get in.

Yes. And like then the colloquialism of if you're invited to the cookout. I was just about to say, yes. It's like it is one of my, because it's one of my favorite things, right? It's like I've encountered this so many times where like a white person does something that they're like, I did it. And now because they know that term, they'll be like, am I invited to the cookout?

And you're like, oh my God. What? I will never ask. It's not something you ask. Yeah. And so it's like this or like how black folks will get on each other of like, stop giving everybody a damn seat in the imaginary cookout and all this stuff. Right.

Like I always immediately think of like a Jack Harlow or hell. Even a Travis Kelsey. People are going to be like, damn girl, you really go in at Taylor's neck, but I'm not. You're a rant about it and it still cracks me up. Yeah. But it's like it is this thing where it's like, and I think it's brilliant that Remick and the group are standing outside playing easily be like what you imagine when somebody says like Southern country from the Mississippi Delta. You imagine like, he picked poor Robin Clay. Like, it gave me such, again, as a Disney adult, too, it gave me such splash mountain vibes.

Because like when you would write on that and they'd be like, zip-de-dude-da. And like, people were like, isn't this fun? Yeah. This fun. And you're like, no, it actually feels so low-key creepy. Yes. To be honest. Yes.

And it, I'm, it seemed like to me that we were also veering into like well-meaning white people territory. It was because even he's kind of like they're like you the clan or they say something like Yeah and he's like I would never like the ins of because I don't want to kill you because you're black. I just I want to kill you because I love your music and I love your energy and I love your soul. What are you talking? I love you so much. I want to take everything from you like that's how I love you. I love what you're doing here. I love what you're doing so much. Yeah it's like it really gave that energy because I think that's what I also love about art and story. Right. It is impossible. And Robert. Phil Casal said this when they were doing like the press tour for blind spotting.

It is really hard to sit someone down, especially in my life. I'm literally in a white sorority, one of the whitest. Melinda Gates is my sorority sister. And like to try to talk to my friends about like, hey, some of the stuff, like if you're asking these questions in good faith, like here sometimes has been problematic. And when you're trying to get somebody to examine themselves really hard. But when I hand them such a fun age, and they're reading that and they're like, God, that lady is insufferable. Jesus, did she think that was a nice thing to do by inviting her to that party and then parading her around?

Oh, God. Oh, no. Wait, am I the lady in this book? You know, it's easier to use story, right? It's like when you try, you know, you listen to Taylor's show. The amount of hate mail I got when I said, there are white people and then there are people who happen to be white. And I said, and a lot of times well-meaning white people are white people. And folks were like, how dare you?

I read this to my sister. She was insulted when I played it for her, all this stuff. To have a movie like this now and be like, here, I'm going to show you Ramek. Is what I mean. Now, do you see how he is killing the clan members? Do you see how he's like, I would, I just want togetherness and brotherhood for all of us? Do you see this? Yes, that was the line where I was like, oh, this is the well-meaning.

Yeah. Yeah, do you see how he... I want it together. Yeah, do you see how his argument to them is, listen, I'm trying to equip you. Because tomorrow, the clan is coming. Yeah. To kill all of you. Well, and the other thing, I saw a clip from the jam podcast, J-A-A-A-M.

And these links will be in the show notes, too. But they were talking about how Remick was also unintentionally this example that racism even hurts white people. Yes. So like when he come the, he basically, everyone who's listening has seen this by now. So I don't. I hope. Because if you're like, if you're like, I'm going to listen to this, then go see it. I mean, I applaud you, but okay.

The, the remic kind of like almost like a meteor shoots into the frame is what we have happened. And then he kind of comes up on this house kind of in the middle of nowhere with this like white couple. Yep. And they end up letting him come in because he says. the, I don't know if he says Native American or, no, he says some, I think he says a much more insulting pejorative. I think he starts not and then he sees their clanhood. Yeah. And then he immediately switches. Yeah, because he's like, because that's the thing too, right? It's like if we talk with them. Because if we talk about our current political climate, all it takes is is saying the right

things. Oh, yeah. You know those immigrants are taking your jobs. Yes. Somebody agrees with me. Yeah. Well, you know, your life would be better. if these black people weren't allowed into Harvard. You're right. It's because the DEI policy existed my job that I, with a high school diploma, have not gotten hired as an SVP at META. You are so right. Oh my God.

I'm glad somebody finally said it. And it's like, because that's all he had to do. I will say shout out, because again, coming from these different heritage backgrounds, shout out to the indigenous vampire hunters that said, listen. And this was where they really got hurt by their own race. Yes, by their own race. He said, hey, hi. You're the only house for 200 acres.

We're pretty sure there is a vampire. His back, probably smoking. When he let you in, right? He was riddled with just like all kinds of sores and stuff on his body. I saw that the imagery was to make him look like a vulture too. Yeah. Well, my mom was so. funny when we saw it, she goes, look at the vultures on top of the house. So many vultures, all about

culture vultures. I kept, oh, I was like, God, Ryan, I love you so much. I was like, the way his mind works, I want to be in there. I was like, I get it. And all I could think, too, also, side tangent is as you're watching it, you're like, God, I wish I could just be in your side of your mind. I'm like, oh, that is probably something he has heard in pitches from like white movie execs who are just like, oh, my God, we wish we could just clone you the way your mind works. Oh, if we could just take your brain, you know, that kind of thing. Or like I've heard Danny Trejo say like the hardest thing of being a successful and recognizable actor of color in Hollywood is like,

he was like, you start looking at auditions and they say Danny Trejo type. He was like rather than just calling you, they go and try to replicate you in someone else. And so like I was like, all right, Ryan, I see what we're doing. But that moment when that man said hi, hello. Is there a, is there a. Smoky man? Is there a smoking man that asked to be allowed into your home? Mm-hmm.

And she said, if you don't get your brown body off my front porch, she said, all right. And he immediately's like, cool. And the way his, everybody in his group said, son's about to go down. You tried. And he's like, I did what I could. He said, I tried, lady. But, okay, but you are so lost in the sauce. Uh-huh.

Best of luck. And I think what I find interesting about that because so many people are like, wow, they came and they dipped. It's like, you have to remember also like the historical context of that point. Like their people have been killed. Their land has been raped all because they tried to be nice and accommodating. All of a sudden people showed up and snatched up their land, killed their people, spread disease through them, shot, you know, bought guns and started, you know, started raping and pillaging

the land, not just the people. And it's like, and so like at that. point indigenous people had context they said listen fool me once shame on you fool me twice the fool me won't get fooled again like i'm not doing this with you i asked you nicely i gave you all the information and you are okay okay you don't care if you don't care i don't care i don't care i can't care more than you do and they bounce and i said this is why i love ryan cougler because he could have easily said done the thing been like representation matters. Let me have them in the film longer. He said, no. The briefness of their appearance is

amazing. Is to show the context of where we are in history that they're like, that these indigenous folks are like, not doing it. Yeah. We're not doing it with you. We, we fell for this before. We tried to save you from yourselves once before and you turned on us. Yeah. So this time around, fuck it. It was amazing. He really does. Just like the second she's against it, he's like, they're like, son's going down he's like yeah he's like all right well best of luck hope you make it to the morning you probably won't so we'll be back in the a.m yeah and i don't think we even see we don't see them once again never never again the representation in the uh music scene but we don't see them they're like fine and i loved it so i was like this is brilliant this is so good and i think the other one that

i just think is so well done and tells us everything about the characters is um are the chinese couple is the fact that the husband is completely comfortable working in the black store and the wife works in the white store. And just like, and even small things of seeing like Chinese American people talk about how that moment when she's like, I only have one color to write the sign in that writing somebody's name in red is bad luck. And that's why she's like, listen, I only got one color. You okay with that? And even just, and I've been talking about this a lot with friends, particularly with friends of South Asian descent. not so much. No, and I actually do have a co-worker who's of East Asian descent and we've been talking about this is this idea of the model minority myth, right? Is this idea that like

there were a group that came here and they literally were told by white folks. If you just don't behave like them, you're fine. I don't know what they're, I don't know what they're complaining about. They are bitching and moaning about nothing. But honestly, if you just don't act like them, you just distance yourself from them, you'll be gravy. And I think that moment of seeing that Bo is like, I'm comfortable over here. I'm fine over here. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I actually feel embraced by this community.

But the idea, and I think this woman talked about it in a PBS documentary about Chinese Americans in the Mississippi Delta, that she said, listen, we benefited from both communities. We acted as a bridge, you know. It was like we could take. the money spent from either place. We didn't fit into either community, but we were beneficiaries of both of these communities. And I think there is something really beautiful about later on

when it's like, here's the group, like we have to preserve ourselves. And she's like, I don't give a shit about anybody in here, except for me and mine. Like, sorry, not sorry. You know, and so it's just there's like so many beautiful. beautifully intentional choices because, yeah, when I'm watching the press run and I'm like, Ryan, I thought this is like a black vampire movie. Why is there like an Irish guy there?

And this Chinese lady is talking in press interviews, but then to realize what they're doing. And then I think the other one in that kind of early exposition is Annie and Mary. So I am also the product of a grandfather who had siblings who passed in Chicago. And so Mary was not confusing to me. And I think Mary, though, is confusing to us now because we're like, Haley Steinfeld is a white lady. But like I don't, but I think when we have conversations about passing, people think that it's Tessa Thompson.

They think that it's like, they think it's Ruth Naga. They think it's that passing. But in reality, it was that. It was the one drop rule. It was people like, I think about my grandfather. my grandfather's mother was white his father was biracial oh yeah they had white basically you know knowing everything about you yeah i'm like oh it's so generational yeah truly right so it's like

so it's like here they have these kids very brit bennett um vanishing half kind of thing where they have all these children and their white mother was from a very wealthy family incredibly wealthy Their last names were the McKenzie's. Her name was Flavia McKenzie. Oh, I did it on. Yes. The McKenzie is owned half the town in Kentucky that they grew up in, and they all lived in Chicago. So you basically had all the kids get a choice.

Do you want to go to Chicago and pass and live with the McKenzie's, or do you want to stay here in Kentucky? Well, in the case of my grandfather, he had gone to Chicago to pass. he very and like similar to mary when you wanted to kind of go see your black family yeah you had to do it like very privately in the dead of night well just so happens he comes home to kentucky sees a beautiful dark skin girl who has an indigenous mother an Asian family and black family and is so cool and falls madly in love with her he remembered her from when he was a child sees her again at 16 and is basically like i am willing to throw away all of the trappings of passing to be with her. And because he had also seen the dangers of passing, he was like, I want my children and my descendants to be undeniably black, that they never have to go through the horrors of standing in these two places at once. And then, like, my grandmother used to tell me beautiful stories about my grandmother,

Flet, great-grandmother Flee, how she would demand that her daughter-in-laws sit with her in the same area on the train. And they be like, oh, well, are they your maids? Are they your whatever? And she'd be like, nope, daughter-in-law. and she's sitting right next to me. And if you make her move, I'm going to move back there. And now your train will have a white woman sitting in the colored car.

And now how are you going to explain that to people? Yes. You know, and all this stuff. And so I think for me, Mary was such an interesting character because you had stack ultimately saying, I made a choice for you that if given the choice of being black or white, the safest thing, the most prosperous thing for you is to go be white. obviously like the fact that she was living in Little Rock as a white woman. I was like,

I was like, is this movie for me, Ryan? I know. I was like, I think we're 20 years early. Okay. Truly.

I know. I was like, you're too early, Mary. But then like on the flip side to have Annie who oftentimes that's very rare in a film like that to have a dark skin, heavy set black woman, be the love interest.

The fact that like people online relate. People thought she was his mom. I was like, what made you think that? I mean, we know what makes me like that truly but that's what I'm saying is that like Ryan really said like I know how this plays out for black women in films it's either the mammy or the horror yep and I'm going to give you guys visually what you know to be the quote unquote mammy and I'm going to make

her the love interest and I was like this is and the fact that she does hoodoo and all that stuff I was like this is such a good movie and like we talked about this before getting on air to everybody's point saying this is a very horny movie this is not a horny movie really not. This is a movie that centers female pleasure in a way that I don't think we've ever seen in a film. Yes. Nobody gets naked. No, that's the other, that's the fascinating part. I saw a comparison with challengers. Yes. And this and how like, people said the challengers was so horny. And it, it's sexually charged. Yes. But it's like, it explores. Because it's still the male gaze. It's still like, what do guys want to see? Even the parts that are like the two men being into each other is still very like, what do, gay men want to see men do.

This was very like, it gave me very like smutty book vibes, right? It's like the amount of times women The one-liners. Yes, those ones. I said, I know that's right, bitch. I know that's right. When she said, I knew your body didn't forget me.

I said, I know that's right. You better tell him. Yes. And I can't even remember Mary's insane line. Mary was she had two. There was the line about. about like, oh, you can, you can rob trains and steal whatever, but you can't, does she say steal this pooch? I didn't remember what she says, Mary?

What? Mary, why are you so? But I also think that was necessary to Mary's character, right? Because when you see her and like people point out from a very sortorial style perspective, she's in like a knit herringbone. It's clear homegirl is rich. Yes. Wherever she is.

She is a wealthy white lady. And so then to have her just be so like raunchy. And then that's when all of a sudden I was like, oh, she probably did grow up in this town and this community. And it said so much that she was like my mother nursed the smokestack twins. And I was like, okay. So she's not just like she really isn't. She is truly a victim of passing.

Like she really is like forced to live this life. You know, she can only come see her mother now that she's dead. She couldn't come to her mother when she was sick Because what if she gets figured out? Side note, that's what actually would happen to my dad My grandfather's brother He was about to marry a very, very, very wealthy white woman in Chicago And the father had a background check PIs

And they went down to Kentucky Saw this biracial black man who was their father And when he came back and reported He's black and he's trying to introduce black blood into your gene pool, they beat him until he was almost dead. That is just horrific. Yeah. And then when he recovered, he went on to become a really legendary pimp that we're

pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I take a lot of pride. Yeah. I take a lot of pride in that. I think you should. He's actually the pimp.

I think his name was Iceberg Slim. I think he is actually who inspired Magic Don Juan, who then gave us Snoop Dog. So I like to think that without my. people yeah we would not have snoop dog and i was like you're all really welcome i think you should roll with it yeah but like i just i thought the women were given so much depth and care and considerate like ryan cougler writes and makes films in a way that is a love letter to black folks and and i hope it never stops like when they said that he's going to be doing the x files i said i've never seen an episode of that show a day in my life i know nothing about it but ryan

I am sat already. Totally. Like, yeah. But, and then the one that we both said, like, we were dying. Because obviously the juke joint and all that. The comedy is there too. There is so much comedy. That part when, like, Slim is a heartbreaking character.

Oh, so sad. When he, like, basically is like, I watched what money did to my friend. So I would rather drink all my success away. But that moment when the shit happens with a vampire and he's, says and he's like guys if you spell that I shit my pants I said that is that is the that is the realest thing because I'm just like whenever horror movies happen and people are just like and like they're all scared and I'm like no I would probably piss myself like my legs go out from under me if I get yeah fainting goat you're like a fainting goat immediately like what are we doing like and just

like even the stuff with like cornbread I thought that was so I was the scene in the field or yeah, in the field when the smokestack twins go to talk to him. And she's like, he said, stack says something about like, how much could I pay you? Yeah, how much could I pay you? Yeah. And the wife is like, let him talk. How much? She's like, cheer him out.

But like, there's something so funny to me about like when he gets turned and he comes back. Yeah. And that fight, because again, like things that just feel so black, like, my grandmother would also have very gladly cuss somebody out if they said she used old fish grease to fry her catfish. And so that moment where like everything is so tense and they're like, why do you need an invitation? Blah, blah, blah. And then he's like, oh, I probably had an, I'm probably nauseous. My tummy's upset because Mary uses old grease.

And Mary's like, first of all, now listen, I was willing to hear you out. But I know you want some bullshit right now. You're trying to insult my cooking. And like just all that stuff of like those little funny moments too. Again, that felt super black to me because I was like that is because that to me has been my life experience where you're like, you know, it's like my dad is in the throes of damn near dying at a hospital and I'm crying and then I'm like running through it with the doctor of like what happened right before we called 911 and I'm like and I mean if you didn't want to watch the Barbie movie you could have just said so and I was like

what I was like that's what I was playing before he passed out you know or whatever but it's like I think there was I like cornbread to me is such a brilliant character because like yes he's comedic, but you also, in the moments that aren't spoken, you feel this deep sadness already of like, wow, his wife will never, like, his wife, like, maybe his wife is going to feel this sense of guilt and yeah, you know, when he doesn't come home and like all this stuff. But yeah, I think the, and then the other one that will eternally stick in my head is the Rocky Road to Dublin moment. Yes. It's advancing. Spectacular. It's, it's fantastic and absurd, like right outside of this, like, building. being on fire.

It's like truly like all hell has broken loose. They're in there like planning, trying to figure out how do we survive the night. And truly he's just like, because again it goes back to his thing of like, we could be having a great time. And you're like, and that is the allure of a lot of times. People being like, just assimilate.

Just give in. Give in to respectability politics. Do the thing. Play the game. You know, it made me think about Kendrick and the like, Mr. Lamar, do you know how to play the game? It's like, yes. You know, it's like because the argument he's selling is like, hey, the clan is still coming in the morning.

Mm-hmm. So you either can die with me and kind of live forever or you can die by them. Yeah. And you're kind of like, well, shit. Like, when you put it that way, like, we're dead either way. And I think, and I do think like Annie basically saying like them. And again, the culture vulture, the vampiric. element. It's like she is the holder of so much power as a black woman specifically and this

idea that she's like, do not let them take me. Like, oh my God. I know. Yeah. It's just, oh. So before I forget some things that when you were talking about the women, I saw something from Straw Hat Goofy who also, he seems to be friends with, he's at least closely related to Ryan Googler because he even had some clips with him. But he was talking about the use of colors in general, which was so so cool. There's like a million things, but to like keep it

kind of like kind of short. So we obviously have like stack has red accents in everything. And then smoke has blue. And also the way there was like smoke in a lot of the scenes with him at the beginning, such a

smart way to establish like, oh, this is the twin because you're like trying to acquaint yourself with so many characters. But he's wearing, smoke is wearing the blue, which I wonder if this is then in that book that you were mentioning as well because I'm hearing that it was like

literally haint blue. Yeah, haint blue. And that's what Imani Perry, and I think that is really beautiful. It's like when it was said that Imani Perry was going to write a book telling the story of black people using the color blue, I said this makes no sense. Like when I picked it up, I was like, how are we going to keep this going?

That's what I remember seeing that in your review. And I'm like, and if she did, that it, and then you loved it. Yeah. So it was really interesting that like when, when all is said and done in the smoke clears, like, it is the blue that remains at the end that you're like, wow.

Okay. Right. Yeah. And so the, he, uh, this guy was saying that, um, then Annie also. is wearing blue throughout the movie and it's like she kind of recommends that to him she also gives him the spiritual protection that I'm going to bring up next because it ties into my next question

but the other thing that this guy was pointing out is that Annie like you were saying obviously her clothing is like also like higher looking quality or whatever word we want to use for it but she's in pinks the whole movie light pinks which is red plus white and I was like oh my oh see And this, but see, that's the thing about right, like a Ryan Coogler where you could be like, oh my God, red is pink plus white. I wonder if he knew. Ryan Cooter is so damn intentional that you're like, nah, he knew. Like, I'm just now.

You're like, I'm just now finding out. Like, he definitely knew. But yeah, it's just. When he said that part, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. The other thing you were talking about with the, with Bo, how like, when it came down to it, she was like, no, I want to get back to my kid, which. It didn't even make sense.

It made no sense. That wasn't going to get her back to her kid. But I saw someone breaking down how the seven deadly sins show up in this. And it was the real voice. I'll tag it. But his thought was stack is greed. He just wants more money. True.

Smoke is wrath. He like is angry about the things that have happened in his life, kind of. And then he talked about Sammy was sloth. And he said we think of sloth as like being. lazy nowadays, but especially back then, the more literal translation was a neglect of spiritual duty or like spiritual

apathy. I can believe that. So he was connecting that as like his dad's telling him don't do this, but he does. See, I almost think of if that is the definition of sloth, I feel like, because it makes me think about my grandmother used to always get on us about like God gave you a certain gift. She used to be

like everybody's ministry is not in the pulpit. And I think what is, I almost hearing that description of sloth. I'm like, though the problem is Sammy's ministry is his guitar. That's what I thought too.

But he's not taking it out into the world. It's like, yeah, I'll just kind of like, yeah, I got the guitar. I got the, I'll just do it here. You're like,

you're not at the train station, you're not at your church. You're nowhere playing. To be that talented seems like spitting in the face of God. I, yep, I agree.

And that interpretation kind of takes us into where I'm about to go of, like taking the dogma. versus like the spiritual sense of what this means because in the spiritual sense he's not doing what he's meant to do yeah um this guy said perline was lust i agree delta slim is gluttony yeah uh remick is envy because yeah i agree to have the way sam can connect sam can connect with people or preacher boy for anyone who's like which one was sammy yeah um but then he said he was kind of torn on this but he feels like grace's pride.

She had this inflated sense of self-importance. I agree. I matter. Yeah, she was like my family because it was like everybody there has a family. Mm-hmm. But she's like, but my daughter. And I'm like, to be quite honest, I love my mama more than life itself. If my mother shows up at my front door with a chunk of her shoulder missing,

talking about, hey, can I come in? I'd be like, if you don't get away from my door, mom what happened to your shoulder like why can't you come in without why are your eyes glowing when you talk what phyllis green what is going on today like there even as a child that also is like a joke my mom did laugh because when the whole thing about like she's going to let her in when I was little my mom used to be like if she would leave or something she'd be like don't let anybody in and I would be like even if it's jesus like if she had to step out and she'd be like even if it's Jesus because then he'll understand he'll know why you can't open the door and I said okay so I am like a grown adult in my 30s now and if she like leaves or something I'll be like don't let anybody in even if it's Jesus because then he'll know why you can't let him in. I love that but like I just yeah I agree with that I I I really as a I think especially in 2025 as a black Christian there is so much conversation around Christianity.

and spirituality and if upholding Christianity is upholding kind of quote unquote the colonizer's religion. Again, I can only speak from my experience. I grew up in a very culturally diverse home. You know this from listening to Jesse and I. Yeah, everyone else needs to know. We love witchy shit, as you would say it now. It's not witchy. It's closed practice things from indigenous culture, from Asian culture, all this stuff.

But we love it in my family. Who do has a place amongst our Christianity. like you are praying while also sage smudging you are putting an egg on its end during the solstice while also you know talking about scripture like for me the conversation that whether the way Annie approaches things and the critiques of religion are in Congress to each other I'm like this is how I came up that's what I definitely wanted to ask yeah about because it just literally in the movie. Like, um, I was, when I was mentioning she kind of gives, is it, is it a bag? I think he was a bag. Yeah, it's, um, it's a, and I'm forgetting the name too, but it's, yeah, it's a juju bag.

Okay. That's what I saw. But like, I'm not kidding. Like, I've had times in my life where like, I went to Miss USA with a little juju bag. Right. On me that my mom was like, keep this with you at all time to keep you safe. Like, you're going to be fine at this thing. And you're like, okay. You know, or going getting like that scene that bottle people are like his bottle of milk i was like no that's a bottle of florida water on the grave like we have a santeria man that we see in the bronx where we go to new york to get refills of like florida water all this stuff and so it's like watching it i was like this is the world i grew up when where people are like okay take your florida water and read the 23rd song you know or it's like do this cross the house

this way. I mean, hell, even little bits of hoodoo, and I've seen a lot of like black Christians my age critique this where it's like, hey, churchy person calling this demonic. Like, put your purse on the floor. Right. You know, if you think all of this is nonsense,

put your person on the floor. If you think all this is crazy, let me sweep the tops of your feet. Now, I will say, if somebody swept the top of my feet, I'd beat the hell out of them. I'd be like, oh, so you want bad things to happen to me. Got it. So you hate me. Like, my poor boyfriend now if I come in mind you ADHD stuff is everywhere but I'll tell you one thing you

I never going to find a purse on the ground in this house and I use everything as a purse so like my backpacks on an elevated surface my like every and he's always so confused like I don't get it or I know now because again white guy from the Midwest right he is like we were walking down the street one day and I said ah ah and I like ran behind him and he was like what I said you're about to split the pole. Yes. Yeah, I don't know. And he was, yeah, and he was like, what? And I was like, you're about to split the pole. Don't do that. You know, and he was like, oh, okay. And now he's, like, so used to things that now he's learning through me that he'll say them to people where he'll be like, we got to go blow cinnamon through the door because it is the first. Once we stop recording,

I'm going to go blow cinnamon through my front door. You know, it's like these things that he has grown so accustomed to now of understanding while also hearing me talk about. And like my faith and God and all of that. So I love, I just think it's such beautiful commentary that it's like you, we talked about earlier, like the colonized religion. Yes. Versus the actual what this is supposed to be. Right.

Yeah. And that's what it had me thinking about because we have like the final, well, it's not the final scene. There's also post credits. I don't know what the final scene even would be. But when Sammy and Remick are like, in the water and he's basically like about to baptize Sammy at least the imagery is yeah the imagery is very baptismal and it but really he's about to kill him right and it's like yeah it's beautiful it's an interesting confluence

and sammy starts saying the lord's prayer and then that's we referenced out a little earlier that's when remick says don't you think i know that too like they came to my town and told me that a man came to my town and said the same words and then burned down my father's home i think it's like the line he says and i think a lot of people Again, because I do think this is something about like evangelical conservative Christians is this idea of constantly being like looking for the devil when like hell is happening. Yeah. They are always attributing the devil to something else when in reality the hell you are trying to avoid you are creating for yourself. Yes. Here on earth right now.

And you know, you and I have talked about this. I had never met an evangelical Christian until I got to college. And I was gooped. I said, the gays, since what has God been concerned about the gays? Right. The same homosexuals who helped me at the Mac counter? Like, I was lost.

Like, I was like, who are these, who are these sodomites you speak of? And the girl was like, and the girl was like, well, homosexuality. And I was like, girl, my grandmother has a degree in theology. I have never, we have never once dedicated time. That's what I'm always like, please tell me the verse for all these things that you're worried about.

Truly. You know, and then meanwhile, my grandmother's so petty. She gave me all the verses on God not thinking that mixing fabrics was a sin. So she was like, if anybody ever says this to you again down there in college, you ask them about this part of the Bible. And so then I would be like, well, what do you think about the such and such from Leviticus? They'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that one. I'd be like mixed fabrics. So are you wearing a polyblend right now?

Yeah. Are you wearing any kind of synthetic synthetic fibers? Because technically you should be stoned as well. But like I think there's something, I think so many people saw that scene and went like, see how the devil will try to use the word of God against you. It's like, no, what they're actually having in that moment is like so many of the rituals and words that we attribute to Christianity. We have just bastardized so much and made them meaningless. But in reality, Sammy's God-given gift is that guitar. And ultimately his gift given by God that voice, his ability is the thing that actually saves him.

Yes. And it's like, and that's the, yeah, it's like, because I, you know, I think about this a lot. Again, the movie made me think about my grandmother. It was like, everybody's ministry is different. She was like some people's ministry. Like, I remember there are a lot of rappers I think about now that I'm like, if she was alive to hear Kendrick Kumar, she'd be like, that's his ministry. That's how he's going to bring a lot of people to salvation.

Because in her mind, salvation was not the church. Salvation was living and embodying the words and acts of God. That like if experiencing that, like, this was a woman that truly used to be like, we can go into church. She loved it for the singing and the community. But like, she was always very clear with us. She was like, when I'm gone, I'm not in there. Yeah. It's why people when they tease me about going to do it.

Disneyland. I'm like, I'll tell you where my grandparents are on a Sunday. I know where they are. Yeah. Like, I know exactly where they are. I don't have to, I don't feel the compulsion. And so I think there is something beautiful about like, ultimately, Remick and Sammy's dad are making the same argument, which is my way is the only way to salvation. And the fact that Sammy's like, no, it's actually my guitar. That's how I'm going to save myself and save others and bring them some. place else and it's just yeah i just like i mentioned a few things that were also coming up for me one what you just kind of ended on even with disney going to disney is i i also have told you before that like you and pitt holmes are like the main people i can listen to to talk about religion

and not be like yeah i appreciate it and he has yeah i still remember hearing him talk about like being on a podcast was what he was even saying like with a really good friend and he was like they were in the same room. McKenzie and I do not live near each other so we are not. But they were in the same room and he was like looking into your eyes, connecting with you, like remembering what we've done and like hearing what you've done since then or whatever. He was like this is my church. Like this is church for me. And I feel like that's what you're saying with Disney as well. And then I feel like that was also. this the juke joint was also like yeah functioning that way of saying like there are there are different versions of church yes so i'm uh i i yes when modern family came out my dad was appalled so i am a part of the white evangelical not anymore i grew up there um he was like this is disgusting that we're just going to say that this is what a modern family is and i just remember being like why are you so bothered? I was still in high school.

So like now I'm an adult. I would totally throw down. Now I would have asked. Now I would have asked a follow up. But instead other things happen. So where I'm where I'm going here with a couple of a couple different things. So the prayer didn't save Sammy. No. And also what saved smoke was Annie's like ancestral knowledge. Yes. At least it's not literally saying that, but like he takes it off at the end. he's ready to go, oh, that's a whole other scene. Oh, my God, that scene in itself. Right.

Because I think it is a way of saying, like, he, it's also a commentary on faith, right? He talks a bunch of shit when he sees her the first time. And she's like, all right, but I know you got it on. Yeah. And he does. And he does. You know, and it's like, and in that moment, he's affirming that, like, no, I always had faith in her.

Like, it made me think about, I was saying this to my mom recently when we were talking about my dad and she was saying like well you've got to have faith and I said let me be very honest god is really pissing me off right now right and I said now I have faith in you yeah and if the thing that you believe in is is not failing you then I will continue to have faith in you and I think that is the thing that also hit me is to watch him basically say like I've always had faith in Annie yeah you know did I think the world would get better did I think all of the Did I think my brother and I would ever get our act together? No, but one thing I always had faith in was her.

And right now, I'm fully letting go of my belief in this. Like, I'm actually fully embracing my belief of this because I really think she is so powerful that her magic, her faith could keep me from dying at the hands of these, like, 40-something clan members. Right. But I would rather be with her than without her. Yeah. And I think like that is so, because it did.

And when she told him he had to put the cigarette out, she said don't get smoke on the baby. I was like, I was like, oh my God, this whole. She's like, you got to come here, pure if you're coming over here. Yeah. And it's just, and it's so, because it is funny. It's like, I think about that often, like when people are like, what happens when you die? And it's like, because, and maybe this is like going through my head a lot because I just recently lost my godmother. But like, and I think about this a lot with my, when my grandmother passed is like, I am sad.

I'm incredibly at a loss. I also know that these people are with the people they loved, especially with my grandmother. That was somebody I had no question whatsoever where they were. I said, wherever they are is better than here. I know that much. And I was like, I'm so happy for her because she's back with her husband. Like she's back with, you know, siblings and all this stuff.

And I thought about that with my godmother where I was like, oh, I'm so happy for her. She gets to see her mother again for the first time in decades. like she gets to see her her closest mentor, Dr. Dorothy Haight, and like she gets to be back with her husband and all this stuff. And now she gets to meet all the ancestors who protected her to get to where she was in the world. And like, and it's just, that's the thing. It's like that it's such a beautiful movie. But then it did kind of make me chuckle where I was like, damn, this man survived.

Literal hell. Right. And here comes the clan next morning. Right on time. And he's like, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back and deal with that. Yeah. It's like, you're just like, damn.

Mm-hmm. Even if Remick never shows up, even, and I think it's also commentary on like, yeah, Sammy never sings. Mm-hmm. Devil never comes. Yeah. Devil was still coming. He was. There was no.

It was not. And it's, that's what I liked about. Yeah. It was like, he didn't summon the devil. There was a devil nearby. The devil was already here. It's, I was listening to someone. This woman, she was on the stacks.

Uh, it was. indigenous writer and she wrote a beautiful book about indigenous justice and land and all this stuff. Oh yeah. And she was talking about how in this current political climate that people would love to compare our current leadership to Hitler. And she said, you don't have to look for a far off dictator. You don't have to find a person. She goes, I can give you one an American made right here just as bad. And she was like, Andrew Jackson. And it made me think of almost that, right? Where it's like oftentimes, especially now, people are like, this is the scariest time we've ever been in history. Imagine, and I'm like, there was always a devil knocking on my door.

I'm going to say, I'm assuming it's mostly white people saying that. I'm like, hell was. I think other people would disagree in some ways. It's like when you talk about Handmaids tale, right? People are like, oh, my God, we're in the Handmaid's Tale. And I'm like, for a lot of women, I'm like, you guys understand the Handmaid's Tale is built off of true stories that actually. actually happened to black and indigenous woman. Yeah.

Like the devil was always here. It was smiling in your face, selling you the house that you can, this land you can use to try to build your business in. It's telling you, clan isn't. What the clan? Mm-hmm. My word. They are long gone.

Not here. We've never had the clan. I don't even, how do you even say that word? Right. Clan. Is it spelled with a C or a K? I've never heard of it. Like, you know, it was like that's the part that got me is like even if even if stack and smoke, don't throw the party that night.

Right. Even if they wait the week, guess what? They were going to come back in the morning. Yes. To a burnt down building. Like it's kind of like Remick's vision of this place being burnt down. Mm-hmm. Always was going to happen.

Yeah. So like, and I think one of the things that will probably go down in Ryan Cooler's altruism. is the idea that he writes villains that you're like, you're like, I think he, I don't disagree because like, when I think about killmonger, he got a point. When I think about no more, he has a point. Right. And then you land on Remick and you're like, he's not totally wrong.

And he wants to connect with his ancestors too. Like that's the other part. Like he doesn't have that ability. Like you can, you can understand. that. Yeah. It's, uh, it is, it's a breathtaking film. It is. And I think, um, this woman, Nikki Marie on TikTok had the best line ever where she basically said, come award season, if this does not get a single Oscar, a single nomination,

a single nod, I will also know that they did everything right. because award season will be a validation of sorts of what the story is about which is like do you love our stuff do you love that we helped your industry do you love that we got people back to the movies not just back to the movies but people specifically were looking up like how do I find 70 millimeter IMAX films yeah and then all the sudden it's like it's like oh but with marketing, I think you shared that too. But with marketing, he didn't make as much. I'm like, we never talk about that when we talk about box office numbers. Literally when, when the guy Franklin Leonard showed side by side,

once in time in Hollywood, exact same budget, exact same opening weekend. Sinners, exact same budget, exact same opening weekend. And the way we talked about the two, I'm like, because it almost becomes this funny thing where you're like, we are in the movie right now. We are in the movie. You guys want black. stories. You want bad boys to get made because it makes people go to the theaters. But then you're going to poo-poo and shit on Will Smith till the day he dies. You know, it's like you want Ryan Coogler. You want these stories. But then all of a sudden it's like, well, you know, he just makes Marvel movies. And I'm like, I don't know how to say this nicely. Only thing I knew R.D.J.

from Rat Pack. Rat Pack movies. And Charlie Chaplin, an anomaly. And then Marvel. Yeah. But everybody was totally fine when it was his turn for awards. season to be like, wow, a redemptive arc. I mean, listen, and don't even get me started on the Jamie Lee Curtis of it all. You all know, I raged out for an entire week when people were like, well, she's just so old. I said her and Angela Bassett are the same age. Well, she deserves this. Which of the Halloween movies did she get snub for? Please tell me, quickly. Was it freaky Friday? Is it going to be freakyer Friday? Oh, God. Is that what she was actually called? Yeah. Somebody was like, well, she was a real standout in the movie. I said, Stephanie Shue gave emotion.

resonance as a rock. Right, right. I would have understood if she got the Oscar. Like I think, I think it is a beautiful piece of storytelling that will hopefully make people who are open to it examine themselves and examine like, who am I in this story?

Am I grace? Am I like, fuck these people? And just screaming, come on in! You know, it's like, am I bow trying my hardest to be this bridge, but realizing like I don't fit anywhere like am i slim just because slim makes me think of so many people now who are just like well everything's horrible it's all nihilistic what does it even matter let's just fuck it we ball and you're like okay that's that's your approach to what we're going through is

nothing matter who's it really cares you know i'm like are you mary where you're like you know because mary let her privilege i can go out there and talk some sense into exactly that is what that's what actually brought it in i saw someone like like, girl. Really pointing that out. Like, if she doesn't go out there thinking she can talk to them, she doesn't come back in a vampire. Truly. And I think, you know, it's just, it's like I, I, even for myself, it's like, are some of us the indigenous people being like, listen.

Yeah, right. I'm done. You're going to shenan once. You go chanan again. So I'm out of here. You know, it's like, I think for me, like I paused and saw a lot of myself in Stack where I'm like, a lot of times I've been like, I'm just going to do what I have to do to get by. Yeah, I'm like, I'm going to do what I have to do to get by.

I can play this game. I can do it well. And I've been smoked before. Are you doing parts work too? Was that you or someone else? Yep. Yep. Yes. You know that.

So I think that's the other interesting thing is like sometimes with big ensemble cast, you see how you, you switch into different versions for different like occasions or whatever situations. It's truly. Honestly, this film is a gift. And honestly, we're all so lucky. to be living in Brian Cougler's world. And to be quite honest, I could talk about this film for like 15 hours. So I'm really hoping that it gets award nods.

So then I can just force you to let me back on to talk about this again. Yes, totally. Yeah. I, it was, I had this strange. I was telling you this before at confluence. Like it wasn't planned, but who knows if it was in my subconscious. But I had seen more people in my bookstore. I'm talking about the book, Jesus and John Wayne.

Yep. which is like it's the subtitle I'm paraphrasing is basically how how even white evangelicals like broke a faith yeah broke a faith and I think it's for a certain for control essentially so I was I was listening to that right before the I saw the movie and then I saw the movie and then I have I had the same order you did after movie I then read yeah afterwards is when I read you right yeah afterwards is when I had Harriet Tubman live in concert. Yes. And I was like, damn, these are in conversation.

It was wild for me because so I very much grew up in the very strict white evangelical version of Christianity. Yeah. And like in the middle of Indiana, like there's not diversity in general like where I even lived. So I grew up with that and I am very disillusions with it and have all kinds of like feelings about it, about Christianity as a whole. I used to have feelings about Christianity as a whole because of it. But like what has been a little more difficult for me recently is I'm like, but some of the

people who are the most loving people are even like you are, I heard you talk about your spirituality. Like there are other people I've heard talk about certain things. And I'm like, but how can you agree with like hating, thinking transgender people are the problem? thinking gay people are the problem thinking like anyway it was getting confusing for me and so that was what kind of drew me to the book too because i'm like how do we have such different variations of it yeah how are we all reading the same book and seeing such different worlds and it was making me think about also during election time when you were talking about the orange i'm not even going to say his name um you were saying how when you would talk to people who were christian

and we're like, well, he is the Christian, whatever, you would ask, uh, which fruits of the spirit. That stuck with me. I used that line once. It didn't help them, but I used it. Yeah. Um, but I thought that was such a great line because when you said it, I was like, oh yeah, those are the things that like, I still technically agree with about my, there are huge parts of it where I'm like, yeah, those are some good things. Those are some good qualities to have essentially. So then listening to this book and hearing that like it like starting in the fifth 30s to 50s was also then when when this was right when this starts well was like politicians were trying to find ways to control people in mass and that it's it was a lot of white evangelical men who were in politics or other

other and think about in harriet tubman live in concert that whole conversation where harriet is so deeply of faith. But then you've got the guy. Yes, that was reminding me of it. Yeah, the guy who's a part of the group who's like, I hated it. Like we were forced to sit in this room where they're constantly reminding us about obedience and turning the other cheek and like, you know, reading us the passages about servants, you know, cleave to your masters and all this stuff. And he was like, I couldn't, I can't. He was like, it's hard for me to make sense of how Harriet hears from this great spirit that's telling her bondage is not the way and to seek freedom. And it's like, but my whole life I've been taught otherwise.

And I think, and similar to like what the book is, both that book and the movie are grappling with is that has always been my life. It's like, I have known this woman who opens her home up to gay kids in the neighborhood who get kicked out. I know this woman who is doing prison ministry all the way into her 80s, you know, I mean, when my grandmother died, there were prisoners, former incarcerated people that came. Wow. Who were like, my life is different.

And when I opened up the paper and saw that she had passed, I had to come pay my respects. Like, you know, and to me, I think was always funny. And I oftentimes, like, you hearing you be like, well, somebody like you, it's like, my lesson from my grandmother was, be such a light and a beacon of hope. and you know my grandpa because in the second post credit scene actually sammy is singing this little light of mine and my grandfather used to be really big that was his favorite song and truly they were like make your light so bright that people come towards you and ask like how did you get like this yes which they use in religiously but it's like it doesn't just have to be be such a good Christian that

you attract people no truly it's why like when jesse and i do manifestation monday and i make the jokes about listen, I share all this crazy stuff that's happening because like at the very least, I hope that people know God is still in the blessing business. Yes. Yeah. You know, and it's kind of like, and I think that's a thing, right? It's like I look at a Sammy and I remember being little and like, and we had a family friend who was doing their test sermon. So I grew up AME in the black church, African Methodist Episcopal, incredible beautiful history, the particular church I grew up in. was the church that was founded by Frederick Douglas. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Like we, you know, we have. Oh my gosh. All the Frederick Douglas shade in Harriet Tubman. I was like, this dude's catching strays all over the place. It's my favorite part because the way I slander certain civil rights icons because I know them, I said, hearing Harriet be petty about Frederick makes me feel better about shit I say. And so like, but it's like this funny thing where I remember being little.

going to this person's test sermon. And I was like, when I grow up, I don't know why. I think I just saw cake. And I was like, I love people's attention. And I love a party. And I was like, Mommy, when I have my test sermon, like, are we going to have cake? And I just remember everybody from the church was like, oh, oh, oh, the Lord is speaking to her. My grandmother, again, incredibly religious woman.

When my mom told her that story, she did not think it was cute. Oh. She was like, absolutely. No, she has a whole life to live. Oh. Why does she have to be a preacher? And it was like, and my mom was like, well, Mama, I thought you'd think it. She was like, uh-uh, that was not.

She should have told them people. It was not, uh-uh. She's a little girl with a whole world in front of her. She can do whatever she wants. Like my grandmother was one where it's like, if the church said, Oh, she was amazing. If the church was like, if the church was like, don't wear pants, that's what lesbians do. Oh, my God.

What was Ann Caudill in the next Sunday? Pants. Love it. Full Catherine Hepburn fit. And those are the women that I'm like, they were doing it when it was way harder. Oh, when it was hard. Way harder for a woman that sang back up from Mahalia Jackson. Like churchy down.

Her daddy was a preacher. And the way she truly used to always be like, like when I swam, she was like, that's your ministry. You know, she'd be like, this is how you reach people. And I used to be like, yeah, to convert them. And she was like, no, to show them the beauty and the spirit. of knowing that they are not the center of the universe. And it was kind of like, oh, yeah, okay. You know, or that like, and so I think that's why in watching that movie

when people have been like, it's demonic, it's going to take people, it's going to make black Christians question their faith. I was like, no, what he's actually saying is like, why did we ever let go of some of our traditions? Yeah. To make room for this thing. And it felt like it was very much respecting the blend that then I was. learning about in the book I was listening to you because it was talking the book even mentions how

like more black churches or predominantly black churches were just not vibing with it. Yeah. So it kind of did split off, which like now I think that's what I was then seeing is like, oh, some people are still kind and not. I mean, I'll be honest. The AME church is founded because Richard Allen, a free black man, gets to Philadelphia, goes into a Methodist church, gets on his knees during Sunday service to pray, and he and his other black companions are pulled from their knees from this church because it's like,

because the Harry Tubman book made that clear for me. It was like, just because you got up there didn't mean they were okay with you. Right. But yeah, and her and she was, well, it might have been her or like it's kind of like you get little vignettes in that book about multiple people's experiences. but it talks about how like they black people weren't allowed to read yeah and then they would pick one and they'd be like you get to read but then what they read just these passages to them is just the oppressed just the things that can be interpreted oppressively is the only thing they're teaching them and i think that and i think that's like the right it's like the first i remember the first time again meeting like my presbyarian classmate churchy down

slightly conservative and i'm trying to explain to him the a emme church and I was like oh I grew up in the black church and he was like why does I have to be a black church and a white church? I said well because Richard Allen was different yeah I said also I said because Richard Allen was literally pulled from his knees and thrown out to the streets of Philadelphia yes so he and his compatriots had to go start their own subset of the methodist faith because they were not allowed to worship in the church and he was like now where did this happen I said Pennsylvania and he was like wait but I said I know the story you've been told is not correct my friend and it wasn't that long ago

is the other part. Something I thought was cool in the book was how, especially at the beginning, he references them being from like only 150 years old. And I liked how he repeated it because I felt like it solidified. Like we're not talking about big time travel. We're not talking about people from the 1700s. I told you. I love to freak people out by being like, do you know your great grandma?

And the person will be like, yeah, my me ma'amaw. And I'm like, okay, cool. I'm like, what do you call your great grandpa? And like, my papa. And I'm like, great. Okay. So my papa was born a slave. Right. Like my boyfriend and I were sitting down.

Two people ago kind of. We were sitting down. We went through this book together that was about relationships. And one of the areas was money. And you were supposed to talk about like, how did your grandparents grow up with money? How did your parents? And as we were sitting and he was talking about his grandparents. He then turned to me after he's talking about like, well, my grandmother grew in Wisconsin and had this land. I said, so my grandfather Green was the first person in his family born free. And it was like just this, just of like, he's talking about generational wealth. And I think when we think of generational wealth, we think of like Rockefellers. He's talking about generational wealth in terms of like, they came into this world with land and property. And I'm like, I inherited the generational wealth of being born free. That's all I got to start with. Yeah.

And that's how it. Yeah. You were just that, it was just born not a person. Yeah. I was like the fact that my grandfather Green was the first person. My grandfather, the first person in his family born free, tells you how wild it is. Yes. And I think that's the part then when you watch a movie like that and you get to that first post credit scene, I'm like, I can only imagine what it was like for smoke to now have lived at least even just to 92, to 1992. and see that go from the Jim Crow South. Yeah. And then, because I think that's what I always think about right with it.

I love vampires. I love true blood. But I'm like, I want more black vampire movies because I can only imagine. Did you watch Lovecraft County? Oh, yeah. I haven't, I hadn't, I've never seen it. And I'm like, now I need to. But I think that's the thing, right?

It's like, I oftentimes think about, yes, you have bon-tomps, you have all that. And I'm like, I have a question. question for the black vampire that is as old as Bill who also lived through the civil war, but has now been experiencing the world as this black man that can only move at night. It's why I love the new interview with a vampire, right? If you haven't watched that. I haven't. It's on Netflix.

If you don't want to get like AMC and stuff, it is spectacular. Because this is again a vampire who exists in like the gym. Crow South of New Orleans. Good. So watching yes, no, but watching him navigate that, watching him talk about like how you use that to your

advantage to hunt and stalk your prey. Like building money, like the suspicious, like people are more suspicious of why he is a wealthy black man in like the 40s than they are of like, why does this guy only seem to come out at night

and his eyes are a weird shade. of Jade. Of course that's, yeah, that's not what they're worried about. Yeah, like what they're worried about is like, hmm, how are you so wealthy and successful? And I'm like, this is, because it's, it's the same reason of Homegirl not stepping aside, letting them in there and being like, you're so right, there was a man who landed on our door. His back was a flame. Yeah. No big deal. No big deal. He looks whitish. It's truly wild. It's, yeah, it's one of the most spectacular the movies I've ever seen. I know. It really, it really is. And it just like ages better. The longer you like, think about it. And that's why I can't wait. I can't wait for it to come home so I can just

watch it rewind it a million times. I know. Yeah. What do you think about the Easter release that it was really? Oh, I thought that was brilliant. Because also that to me felt very black because like I know for us. It is like, well, it's good Friday. Oh, it's Easter Sunday. Let's go see a movie. Like, oh, it's Christmas. like you're together as a family and then you're looking for something to watch so i said ryan also knows his audience to be like i know you guys are together i know you're looking for something to do i know y'all are hungry challenge like yeah that i mean whether it was totally intentional or not but the uh colonizer christianity as i was going to start calling it yeah is so fucking prevalent right now obviously and nice to show that version of it on eastern instead

Yep. It's nice to it's nice to critique it through art on that day and get people thinking. Yeah. I love it. Well, I could keep you all day, but I'm assuming you have stuff to do too. You know, I'll go to work, I guess. Boo. Well, thank you. I, it's, I mean, it's not cool what your heritage is, but it was cool to have someone with personal ties to so much of what was the name. I mean, I think, I think the best. way to sum it up is that juke joie scene it really is it's like it can be sadness pain it can all exist in a confluence and a conflagration together and i think that's what i love about that movie is it made me look at my life that oftentimes when you tell people stories of passing or this or whatever and they're like oh i'm so sorry and i'm like don't be sorry it's it's beautiful and it's rich and you know

to quote bionse a whole lot of red and that white and blue it's it's uh it all is necessary And it's like you cannot erase history. And I think that's the beautiful part is that there are more artists making sure that it is impossible to extricate people like myself and so many others that have these complicated stories that make us American down. No place else. And I think it's really a special time. So yeah. The other wild thing was you, she manifested going to the opening night of Beyonce. And then her show was not only, I haven't seen enough to comment on it completely, was not only what you're saying, that example of like someone who's using music to tell all of these stories.

Yeah. But you even got to see your dad as a part of that history. Beyonce is clearly a griot because the way she pulled the past into the present and then showed us through her daughters what the future can look like. It was like, gosh, I know. I'm like, wow, cool. we better get out of here quickly before Remick and the rest of them show up.