Bookwild - Taylor Frankie Paul, Another Duggar, The Manosphere, Age of Attraction and More with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

Halley broke the news to me that The Bachelorette was cancelled after the video of Taylor Frankie Paul was sold to TMZ, so we start off right in the mess of pop culture.  Listen for our thoughts on: Cancellation/pause of The Bachelorette starring Taylor Frankie Paul due to domestic violence allegations Ethics of airing real-life trauma and abuse on reality TV Trad wife culture vs. reality of women as breadwinners Religious conditioning and spiritual bypassing Purity culture and its connection to shame and abuse Grift culture (influencers, politics, capitalism) Age of Attraction's age gap dating approach The Manosphere - when men become obsessed with the male gaze Incel/red pill ideology as a bid for connection Some movies, TV shows and books we've loved recently Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

I am back with Hallie and we have important things to talk about. We do. We're welcome back. Thank you so much for having me back, Kate. Yes. Your America's correspondence, we are. We're here to talk about some important things. Yes.

The timing is pretty perfect, especially because this episode is going to come out tomorrow. So we're just going to be on it with the pop culture. We're going to be on it with the pop culture. So not two minutes ago, I got an announcement on my phone from I think the Hollywood reporter that they are pulling, who knows if it's forever or if it's just for the moment, the season of The Bachelorette starring Taylor Frankie Paul from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives that was supposed to start airing on Sunday. They were airing it on Sunday.

But like amidst the domestic violence allegations that she and one of her baby daddies have been kind of throwing back and forth. And he, his side allegedly leaked a video today from 2020. of their previous domestic violence incident. And I think that's what made ABC Twitch. So I feel like there's a lot to dig in here about like, you and I are like always so interested in sort of like the reality of reality TV, social relationships, and like, I don't know.

What are your thoughts? Do you watch? The new season of Mormon Wives has another season up too, right? Yeah. They're cranking out like four of these seasons a year, which first of all, my like immediate thought is like somebody should not let this woman be on the air and I actually am a Taylor Francidval fan but I'm like this is too messy this is not good for her this is not good for her family there's children involved like she shouldn't be on the air you know like she needs to be dealing

with the stuff in private that said I'm going to talk about it forever with you yeah right uh except for when we talk about it right but you're perfect and right and compassionate yes I mean you know what you're signing up for when you especially with reality tv that's a whole different kind of thing even than just being like famous for singing yeah um or acting but okay so a couple things blakely thornton is who i found out i found out that about the domestic violence in general yesterday because he had a hilarious take where he was like and now the heteronormative trash bucket that is the bachelorette and i about died laughing he's just so funny he's like but they're got to decide what they're going to want to do um and i remember a lot of people when the show started

airing where they're like this is actually the most uh like ghetto show and the but we're not but so many people weren't using the word because we've kind of racialized that word and think like white Mormon wives can't be that boy can they they are are messy. And like I, so do you watch the show, Secret Lives and Mormon Wives? I had obviously seen the new season. That's why I was looking it up. Like I didn't know, did they all, I didn't know if all the episodes of the new one had landed or if it was soon. All the episodes of the new one, I think have landed. They have announced, they announced earlier or like last week that they had halted the filming of season five, which I'm like, these women have been on the air for 18 months and

we're already in season five. Like, that's fucking crazy. That is crazy. They're just green lighting this. And like, and then we can also like, I don't know, we're just like complicit. And I don't know. There's a lot. I know because it's sad. You and I've talked about that. It's like one of the more sad realities TV shows to watch sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. And like I think the most fascinating part of it is like the part that's kind of said not super loud. Although I think they dug into it this season, which is like these women are performing traditional femininity but have an act become the breadwinners of their family, which like forces a role. reversal that the men in their lives, like, are not game for except for Connor, who is a perfect

angel, despite his, like, Tinder slash grinder infidelities. But, like, he's the only one who seems to be like, he loves it. Yeah. And I love that. And I'm like, okay, Whitney is now our queen. I don't know. Somehow that happened. So, so if you guys remember, if you were watching, there were first domestic, like, that was the pilot episode of the show, which honestly, like, is that legal? Like, that, was always, I thought that was crazy. They had like, like, police camera footage from like the domestic violence allegations. Yeah. I think it might was it. It was, though. You're right. It was police. It wasn't just ring camera. No, I don't think so. I think it was like body cam footage, which like, imagine, first of all, I mean, there's a lot here that's like very sad and damaging to talk about,

but like I also want to leave. Yeah. I mean, again, like, you know what you're signing up for. Totally. And, but like, but Like imagine like who the fuck are you that you're that producer that you go to the police and you're like, oh yeah. We're going to need that body cam footage because it's going into pilot. And then they didn't even know if they were going to let her be in this season. Yeah. Yeah. And so it comes on the heels of that.

We've also like if you've watched, I think there are very clear instances of emotional abuse by her baby daddy Dakota that have been captured. on screen. I mean, this is like, I, like, this is like a toxic sandwich, like we've rarely seen, you know, like, and her parents. And her parents, her mom. Add to the, or maybe not add, they explain. Yeah. They explain. I just remember those, well, and I don't even remember the exact parts, but I remember them pretty much telling her, like, you should be grateful at her with someone, even though he was so terrible. And that was the purpose of the conversation, it was her being upset. totally just didn't care right or like they've said stuff to her where like she's I feel like what I've seen her do is a thing that I feel like we've seen other women do on reality TV shows really she fixates like he's clearly a bad partner for her in a lot of ways including I would argue like at least emotionally abusive if not in other realms yeah physical intimidation at least yeah like I don't remember like there's like a scene burned into my brain in the first season

where she's like days away from giving birth and he's like haranguing her about why she doesn't married to him and she's just like lying on the bed like crying like he's so pregnant and just crying and frozen like why don't you want to marry me like over and over it's like I don't know this maybe this like not a compelling case exactly like you know what I'm not signing up for for life this uh but then I remember yeah like conversations with her like she I think she fixates on like who he was sleeping with and when. And like, to be fair, this man does seem to be super messy. Oh, yes. Like sexually, but like when really what she could be focusing on is like the big picture of this person is wrong for me. And instead it's like litigating like, you told me you weren't sleeping with her,

but you did sleep with her. And it's like, sure. But like generally, this person is garbage. You know? As when I was in therapy, one of the things that, especially when you're dealing with a narcissist, they tell you, they're like, do not get into detail. And, you. They're like, do not get into details like because that's where you spin and get away from the conversation that you're having. And so sometimes it's so tempting to be like, I'm going to have all of these things listed in my head that prove that you're wrong. They're never going to, they're never going to believe it, even if you have all the details. And then like you're saying, they're just going to be like, well, I think it was the 16th instead of the 17th. So you're wrong and you should be with me.

Like you don't get anywhere. Right. Right. Right. It's like it's not. much these small incidents as like the main picture but I think it's much easier for people to be like well he lied to me about this girl or whatever I'm supposed to be like well this person has made my life a chaotic mess for two years that's time to go you know yeah I think sometimes and this applies to a lot of things that I have been experiencing with people um I I think sometimes too it's like easier maybe to focus on those like little the little details that make your decision okay because otherwise you have to just completely believe for yourself like no you're not great and I am done like you have to completely own it yourself totally totally and they're just

going to spin you if you're in details totally and I think it's like almost a form of arguing with who you want this person to actually be versus yes like trying to be like if you could just not do this one thing when it's like actually like the picture is much bigger than that it is fact about like these major incompatibilities and yeah i do think that's a big part of it because you don't i've had moments i've had moments here recently where i've been like is my judgment okay am i catching the right things with the right people and it's it's intimidating and so then sometimes yes you're even like battling the part of yourself that is like well i think he's this person though and like that's the only reason i was with him yeah i'm not like sometimes there's

There's the whole, am I stupid for not seeing this? And so that that makes it hard to confront to. And then, I mean, her parents, though, like. Right. And she's like- Doesn't seem like she had a good platform or a foundation. No, totally. She's, like, trapped in layers of it where it's like, it's like, it's her parents.

It's also, you know, the religion she's in that is like, chemically patriarchal. And, like, that's the thing. I mean, I have always found it very easy. to root for Frankie Taylor Paul, maybe less so after the domestic violence. I mean, who knows exactly what's happened now. It's hard to know.

We don't have a lot of details, but that's never fine. I'll never be a Dakota fan. So like, you know. No, no, no. But, like, what I found so empathetic or, like, so tender about her was, like,

she was so clearly being shoved into this box of, like, Mormonism and, like, be married and, like, and do this thing very specifically. And it was, trying not to right and it's so clear that like that format doesn't work for her but all the people in her life who should have her best um interest at heart only know to push her in that direction like and i don't think they're doing it necessarily maliciously but they're only like it's all they know do this you would be happy and it's like i don't think so i don't think she's built for that you know like

it's kind of like i mean no it is it's not even really how much of a jump but it's kind of like in some circles and some religions it's like you're not depressed you need to spend more time in prayer. I'm going to pray for you or like all of those things. It's spiritual bypassing is what that is. And then in this case, it's like spiritual bullying because it's so patriarchal. Totally. I know. It's so messy because I remember I've always felt bad for her, which is also like kind of what you don't want. Like I think I've always had some pity for her. I mean, there's pity kind of watching that whole show, though, itself. Like, I think that's where I was still like, I've got to like talk myself into doing this other,

because again, it's almost a sad show to watch. I mean, who knows how much it got exacerbated by what you opened up with is like, you can't, you kind of can't have a show about tradwives, especially because it's not just Instagram, Trad Wife that's like one and two minute things. It's going to be really hard to have a reality show about trad wives where they make the money and that never throws off the whole balance. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I agree with you. I find it sad like sometimes on a personal level. And then I also find it like sad for America where I'm like, I don't know, we're having this like culturally conservative moment where we're like Bradwives are in the mainstream and like all these different

things. And I'm like, ah, I shouldn't be watching this. I'm part of the problem. But oh, the world is ending and I want to watch. So McKinsey talks about being a conscious consumer. of anything, even media. And so, like, I think she and I were talking about, oh, it was with America's next top model. We're going to have to talk about that. Yes. Yes. Where she's like, she's like, but if the next season's on, I'm going to watch.

And I was like, I know. But it is, there is still, you and I are not going to, us not watching is not going to make that show not get filmed anymore. Yeah. And there is social insights. from watching stuff like that. Even if some of it's edited a certain way, it's still is socially interesting why it's edited that way.

So I think we, I think we aren't like idolizing anyone in this show. Well, I don't think I idolize anyone. I've never felt better about my life choices than I do watching this show. I know. I know. You watch it. You're like, oh my gosh. And I remember like the first season, all of the like all the threads or the tweets or whatever that are basically like these bitches are this wild sober yeah and also i have to say what

they do to sodas like i don't really believe in god but if there is one he's way more offended by that than wine i would have to like good lord oh that should be the title of this episode almost that's so good yeah i know there's a lot in time lately where i'm like or sometimes you can't what it was a couple of times what was it i don't know but yesterday i was like thank the god that i don't believe in that blah blah blah blah blah but also i'm having more and more moments where i'm like you think that's what god is worked up about right right that's it no i mean maybe the war and genocide and like i hope that's what god cares about yeah i don't think he's like those mormon women protect the pedophiles i don't think about i don't i don't get that vibe but i don't i don't get that vibe but i

can you remember if I told you, but like the funny joke is that obviously in 2025, I started reading a lot more nonfiction and had all kinds of different people on the show, particularly Christians who interpret whose theology is through the lens of love because I was like, oh, there are actual Christians who like see things differently to you. So we made a joke last year that that 2025 got so crazy that I had to come to Jesus moment. But. Because historically, I think he's a pretty cool activist who wouldn't be okay with a lot of this stuff. 100%. Right?

Like, that is like, if you really, like, dig into numbers. He kind of got killed by the state for questioning corrupt power. Totally. And he was like a socialist, if we're going to name it like a political. There are like obviously really good teachings. Yes. Yeah. But like it gets really perverted by a bunch of different factors.

and interests and things where it's like love thy neighbor unless thy neighbor is a or trans or black or you know like not white you know yeah i know because the other news is even more sad but another dougar kid just got arrested for child molestation almost like it's systemic almost like it's systemic That's a unique culture that values male agency over women's bodies. I know. And I think, well, I know because you see it. There are some people who think it is the most like far left cuckoo shit to say that purity culture and rape culture go together. But they do.

Like, they just do. Because the girls and women have so much shame that they will take it on themselves and it stays quiet. That's a big part of it. it, I think. And we know they do because there's studies about this, right? Like, we know that Utah is one of the most devout states. We also know it consumes the most porn. We also know it has like amongst the highest rates of like, you know, sexual abuse and families. Like there are like, it's not just conjecture. Like there are studies that back this up. It's really crazy. It's crazy because when I watched the documentary on the Duggers like, I don't know, was that two years ago? That was terrifying.

And what was extra terrifying to me was almost all of that stuff was, what I was was the version of Christianity that I was in and I had forgotten but it's the James Dobson stuff. Yeah. So that's why watching that documentary I was like, holy shit. Like this is, these were like the veggie tales like all these things that were like my upbringing. Where am I going? Oh. And so then I just, I think I just shared it too. I saw a thread that was talking about like the Duggers and the Dobsons like the Duggers pushed James Dobson's family. I can't think of focus on the family. It's kind of like this widespreading curriculum for churches and families or whatever.

The Duggers pushed it so hard. And then we found out how terrible a person James Dobson actually was and all of the, at least, assault in certain in different ways. It's also quoted heavily in the Epsine files. If you go to the searchable Epsine files right now, even redacted, you will find so many references to the Dobson structure. And so that's what someone was using to talk about. Like, this is what we're talking. Like, all of this is connected. The, like, putting so much shame in certain areas so that they don't get talked about. And then, like,

powerful men are like, oh, I'm going to latch on to that and say that God wanted me to do these things. Right. Find justification for the gross things that I want to do by saying, oh, look, there's this culture or framework or whatever. Yeah. And I mean, I saw something, I saw someone who's like, just remember, we don't have to say, oh my gosh, why am I agreeing with Candace Owens right now? We can just say Candace Owens finally is finally agreeing with us. But then a broken clock gets to be right twice a day.

I know. She's been, I wondered. And again, I should say then technically, this has not been a thousand percent proven. But months ago, people were talking about how Erica Kirk got banned from Romania because of a pastor whose name I can't think of exactly right now. But that part has been verified. Yeah. One of the megachurch pastors that she is traveling the country with right now just got hit with massive child sexual abuse suit. I didn't see that.

I think 15 different now women. a few days ago that came out and she's still touring with him but they were in Romania together where they were getting so many complaints that they're banned from being in Romania I'm like what is with you people like treating kids like I feel like treating kids right should be one of the easiest things to do yeah I mean right it's like we're seeing so many structures that have said that they are about moral upbringing when it's What it's actually about is like enabling men seems to be what's happening. And then it makes me more and more sad the more I learn because there are naturally really great parts to most religions.

Yeah. And it like all, I can't believe I'm even having to clarify this, but like all Muslims are not bad. No. And all terrorists do not have brown skin and are Muslim. Like that's not the case. And then it's so sad because like I'm hearing so much. many people like, well, those are the Christians that give us a really bad name. And that's true for some. Right. But then some of those same people are then also being like, Muslims are dangerous. And I'm like,

you don't get to say that's not my version of Christianity and like allow yourself to separate and then just make a sweeping judgment against any other religion. It just, it sucks. Totally. It reminds me a little bit too of like the police when there's like that Apple's theory. which is so that like I do not believe that every person who works in the police force is a bad person or a racist person. But the few bad apples theory doesn't hold up either because we are looking at something that happens systemically and is covered up. Like I mean, it is, it's clear that there is some flaw in the system that's either enabling people to go into this or once they're into this pipeline, converting them to something that is like much more dangerous and gross. And like that is, that's the thing that I feel like the one bad apples people are missing. like, yeah, you don't necessarily have to be a bad cop yourself if you're a cop, but like,

there is a problem in the system because it's happening. Well, and I think that's making me realize because there are a few people who are like, there's nothing wrong systematically with America in my life right now. What would you like to live? I think it's, it's quote unquote nicer. It doesn't work for me. I was just talking to one of my author friends. And she was like, some people just don't even want to know.

She's like, I have friends you don't even know we're at war. I was like, same. Or she was like, I have acquaintances. And I was like, yeah, I had someone be like, why is gas so high? And I was like, the war, which isn't that funny. But oh, what was I about to say right before that? What was the last thing? We were talking about systemic, like, issue. Oh, I think people who also are like, I don't think anything is systemic where they think that's like such a far left. so, like so extreme, they would also laugh at a joke in general about popes and little boys. Yeah. So it's like for some people, I, because I'm also trying to extend grace in some situations

where I'm hoping there's maybe some kind of ignorance, but it's not maybe willful. If I were going to extend some grace in that area, it's like, do they just completely, not know? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know either. I mean, I think America is a pretty good propaganda machine in the sense that, like, we have been telling ourselves for generations now that, like, we are the best. It doesn't get better. This is the home of the free. This is as if, as if other nations aren't free, too, which is strange. You know, we have, and we're built on a bedrock of imperfect but lofty ideals, right, that are good. Like, there are lots of things about, like the constitution or the Bill of Rights that I think are like really great important markers of

like of democracy. But then we also sort of instead of like working to continue to extend those and like take them further and like make them more encompassing and compassionate, we're kind of like, we perfected it. We've did it right. We're not taking notes at this time. And it's because we're white. So the white people get to enjoy it. Yeah. And it's this sort of like, I don't know, this sort of like rigidity around like the reactions to Mamiani I shouldn't be surprised but it's insane it's like he is making the city a better place in a way that I think almost if an outsider was just told details right I think they'd be like wow that's some really good change that he's making and there are people still just saying the most racist stuff yeah because they think he's a terrorist just because he has brown skin

I mean, speaking of like, you know, propaganda, I mean, even using the word terrorist, when we say terrorist, I think even you and I understand that there is this racialized component to it. But like, I would argue that the greatest threat of terror in America, it tends to white men with guns committing mass shootings. Like, that is terrorism. Nothing has happened for Renee Good, Alex Prattie, Keith Porter. Like, nothing has happened. Right. Or even like, you know, who is the guy? I don't, I'm glad I don't know his name, but this was years ago. There was that mass shooting in Los, I mean, there's a million of them every year, but the mass shooting in Las Vegas at the concert, like, that was a white man and they managed to capture him alive. That's what drives me. Right, but it's like this person is killing, like, hundreds of people or dozens of people, and we're not using the word terrorist for it. Some places do call it domestic terrorism, but a lot of places do not say that.

They call it mass shooting, which is also this weirdly, like, that also becomes racially coded in a way that that's like for white people generally versus terrorism. them like well and how we're like he had he probably had mental health problem i'm sure he did but like yes that's why now living in america you know that's what got to me so much to i read that book toxic empathy for research it was terrible um but it's good it's good to know if you want to know how these like how these people are telling themselves the empathy is a bad thing um the the the immigrant chapter got me so worked up that I even have a I have an Instagram post you can scroll down if you want to go see it but her whole thing is I know you basically I know you think I'm cold

for saying this but crimes by immigrants are crimes that could have been prevented okay that's her whole thing she's like yeah people are like what about the crimes that citizens commit and I'm like well these could have not happened if we didn't have them here so I immediately it was like ali beth stucky stance on gun control yeah and she is hard core pro like no regulation and i'm like you want to talk about if you are if you are actually concerned about saving people's lives in america which is actually what my whole carousel ended up being about by the numbers um let's let's start looking at gun regulation if you want to talk about preventable crimes yeah I totally agree. That is like the number one or like if we were even to say start profiling domestic violence abusers to bring it back to.

But those are often the people who escalate into other things. And you went in a much more nice logical based. When you said that about preventable crimes, I was like, if we put every man in jail until he proves he's not a threat, that would also get rid of a lot of crime. Exactly. Not all crime committed by men, but like let's start there. Well, it's everything that we're talking about also circles back to the not all. man not all men but always a man with that that that's with like police violence like women like we're talking about well and have you seen that tweet going around that uh i don't get on twitter i need to say thread but i say tweet um that's like uh women hate men as a system but men hate women as individuals and that's the difference yeah so i think everything that we are talking about right now, we are talking broadly about systems within gender, race. Totally.

Words like terrorism, to your point. There are plenty of individual men I like and love. Yes. And as a whole, I'm like, I don't think they're almost people, you know, they haven't really heard so much to be people yet. I know, I know. That's like the Schmidt meme where he's like, oh, white man. It's like one of the best shifts.

well so that's what's happening in all of pop culture and a little bit of political culture but it does kind of fit because I was just like maybe we should just I don't even know why it was one night I was like what are we going to talk about and I was like we could do book movie TV show and then a podcast or a song yeah yeah but that fits we were talking about some TV shows at least to start it off. Yes. And there's more, I have lots to, okay, are you watching Age of Attraction? You're what? Oh, I haven't seen it. I know about it. Okay. I think it is crazy. So, sorry, I just like, like you said TV show and I was like,

we're going to. Go for it. Go for it. Do you know the premise of the show? The huge, I heard Hannah Burner recap it, but you can recap it for people who have not. So it is, I think it comes out of the love is blind family. It's not the liches. It's Nick Vial, who you might know from, he now has like a ubiquitous podcast and he was on the batch. He terrorized a lot of women on The Bachelor. And now here he is.

And he's married to a woman who's 18 years younger than he is because she slid into his DMs. I didn't know very cap was that big. Okay, go on. And so I think she was like 23 and he was 41 or something. And so they came up with a show that I think lives, again, like I said, I don't think it's like a spin-off of Love is Blind, but I think it's sort of like Netflix is like we've had this monster hit. What else could we do that's like that's like it? So it is a show where people go to Canada because what's happening is clearly not legal in America. Just kidding. Canada is like better. They've exported them.

And they go to basically like a summer camp and they're dating all these people. and you can't know the person your dating's age until you get to what's called the promise room. And that's when you're like, we want to like keep dating each other. And then they say their ages. And that's the one cliff I've seen. Yeah. It's, I tell you. How many other?

Has it all aired? Mm-mm. We're like, so it's weekly. Yeah. So they're pretty far into it. We like, so they have a bunch of people. they did show us there were a bunch of like age appropriate matches and they basically were like these losers aren't on your TV look at them they're off happy we're going to focus on the ones that have

the age gaps and um so i mean it is truly wild that the show came out in a post Epstein document america like the fact that they're just wearing this and being like what is age it's just a number so he's 33 years older than her who cares watching it you're just like what but i will also say it's the best thing that's happened to me in terms of brain rot for a long time. It is crazy. That's how I only watched the first season, but it was a similar thing because Love is Blind did well. The ultimatum like years ago. And I was like, this is terrible and I cannot look away. It's one of those where it's like, it's very bad, but it is pretty watchable. And oh my gosh, first episode title is age just a number.

That's what I'm saying. I think like, no. It's not actually. And there are a couple couples on there. Actually, there's just one. There's a couple I'm rooting for. She's older than him. I don't think it's going to work out because I think she's too freaked out by it.

Yeah. But we'll see. But there are so many men who are like pretzling to themselves to believe that the fact that they picked a 22 year old. woman is they're like she's she's so mature for her age oh yes so mature like they're like you can see them trying to convince themselves that they're not in fact skeevy men and yet there we are it's so tricky too because so what's interesting was i haven't finished the episode but hannah burner was talking about it and she is 12 or 14 years younger than her husband

but she met him in her 30s. Yeah. And it's never felt weird to me. Like they have a podcast together that does not mean that you're hearing everything. I'm aware of that. But their dynamic has never seemed odd. And she kind of talks about, kind of often about how, like, he had established his career already.

And hers was pretty established. And so, like, they didn't feel like they were competing with each other. And they're both, like, he will be. be gone for like a week and then she might be gone for the next week but they both uh respect their careers so much that they're just like we're not going to freak out about that yeah but then sometimes i hear like a 16 year age difference you're like oh my god and i know she was saying too she was like if i was 20 and was with a 36 year old she was like now that i'm like 35 i think she's like no no so like it's weird i don't know when the timeline is that all of a sudden it kind of

isn't weird. Right. And I mean, I think part of the reason it's weird is power, right? Like, it is about the like potential power, knowledge, financial, like all of these things that go into that potential. Yes. Which I agree with you, starts to level out. Like a woman who's like 45 dating a 61 year old, I'm not worried about that age gap. No. Because you're sort of like, you're probably like, you have life experience. You have this other stuff that like may negate some of the. that like inherent power differential. Now, a 22-year-old woman and a 38-year-old man, as we see on the show, a little different, you know?

Or like, a bunch of these men have kids who are like closer to their, in age, to their partners and they're just convinced. They're like, she's going to be a great mother. And meanwhile, she's like, I don't know. I don't know if I'd call myself a mom. I didn't see this for myself, which again, I'm also not blaming any of these women. I have a lot of side-eye for these men who keep being like, she's 22, but she's She's a wise 22.

And I'm like, that's not true. I know. And that's the power part too, where sometimes, like, it's going to be really easy for them to manipulate you when you're that young. Totally. Totally. And, like, you may not have the life experience or the, you know, financial standing or, you know. And again, who do?

I think any, it's hard to do any sort of blanket statement. But in general is really, there's, there's, there's a pair where we're all. Oh. I saw someone who And I won't say anything But the one I saw was like a reveal of like 60 and 27 And I was like That is a big range

It's a big range And you, it is one red flag amongst many I find out he's lying about having children He like and not like a lie by omission She asks if he has children and he says No, I don't believe in having children. having children out of wedlock and then tells her later like, yeah, no, I just didn't think it was the time to have that conversation. So it's like it's not even sort of like a glossing over it.

It's like I. Yeah. We lied to you. And then like he really turns out to be a piece of shit in a bunch of different ways. Like, well, yeah, because who doesn't realize eventually she's going to know? Right. You're not as far as you think you are. Right. And then in that instance in particular, or you're watching it. And my feeling was like he knew how young she was on some level. I think they all know to some degree, right? Like I'm watching it and I'm like, that girl's 22, that girl's 26. You know, you can tell.

And I'm like, oh, I think he picked her because of that. I think he picked her because she would be less likely to be like, hey, that's bullshit. You know, like, call him on it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. This might need to be a falling asleep show. Yeah. And you'll have nightmares about the state of America. Oh, my gosh. And I'm surprised Canada hasn't put a press release and been like, we don't appreciate being involved in this mess.

They're like, we're going to build a massive wall. You're building a wall and no more of this. No more coming to our chores. Oh, I know. Well, to one more time speak about the state of America, which I guess you can't not with these topics. I want I'm counting this as a TV show it's not but I watched the Manofsphere doc two days ago how was it it is I'm scared painfully bad yeah you will just be like what like what though like are you sure you just said that um without spoiling things because some of it some of the fun of it is seeing how this documentary and does it and now I need to go watch some of his other documentaries.

I don't know why that was the word I lost. I aspire to this man's level of calm with asking questions that he knows are, even if they're not like provocative in an aggressive way, like they are. And he will just ask them and let people talk. And it's definitely These people say stuff Knowing there are cameras around And you're like, you really said that.

Like it's absolutely wild. He did kind of interviews with, I think, four or five different of these men who are like really mega fit podcasters who are essentially, when we talk about red pilling, that's what this doc is about. And like just for like a taste of it the the first guy he's talking to he I took so many notes watching this because I was like this is so crazy that I just have to at least like write this down because I'm so shocked.

He he's like so you are he's the the dude bro. I can't even remember which one it was is telling Louis that women need alpha men. and like men have gotten away from I know the being the providers and it's just so important for men to be that way and Louis says do you think do you think I'm an alpha male and just like blinks at him and it's so funny because the camera even caught it and I'm like he just looked down at him and then he Louis says back to the guy he says did you just look at my arms he just says it he was like did you just look at my arms to answer that and he was like well yeah I mean it doesn't look like you really care about your physique. So that was my first note. That's in the first five minutes. And I was like, oh, my God, it's rough. Yeah. Like I say it made me that angry. It's only 90 minutes. And it's not,

so it's not like you're watching like three hours. I think that helps too. And again, like for me, I would rather know that this is what, yeah, is out there. You know what I mean? So yes, it's like mildly infuriating, but I also kind of recommend it. I, I, I, I, maybe, I'm scared to watch it. I'll be honest with you. I'm with you. I think more information is probably good. And I'm also like, I may never date again.

You know what I mean? I can't even imagine. I find it so fascinating. Like, I have nothing good to say about red-pilled men at all. But I will say like some of the stuff with like the looks maxing or the in-cells or the alpha males, all of that. at its core is a bid for connection, right? I know.

It is wanting to be like, I want a partner. I want this thing. But I mean, they don't really want a partner if I want, you know, a trophy. Um, but like it's like it's still,

I guess what they want is they want a woman in their life, but they still want to be superior. And they don't. One way monogamy is what they call it. And they don't really want to know what women want. Right. I guess that's part and parcel because they don't see women as people or as valuable in any sort of way other than as a trophy to impress other men, which like I'm not using this as a slur. But like there is so much about this heteronormative culture that is in fact so homoerotic that is so crazy.

It's about like impressing other men via women. Like you guys could just kiss. We all love teeted rivalry. Yes, we would actually love you. Welcome. Have fun. Enjoy yourself. you know i know it's so crazy and it is it's all about the male gaze that's what like they're

they're they're they're missing and the male gaze you know exact it's both yeah it's it's so wild and uh they're like women don't want equal relationships women want heroes and i'm like i actually don't like i do you want to date a woman who's like i want a hero i need you to perform for me me like that feels like so much pressure yes i agree out and watch bravo with me like normal people like that's what we want yes come watch terrible netflix shows i know i know it is there's a lot about it that is it's about the male gaze both ways yeah it reminds me of did you even if you even if you didn't watch it i'm sure you saw the clip that goes viral about the um the guy on love is blind being like, I usually date women who do Pilates. And he's like talking to a woman who's a hot

doctor, homeowner, like all these things. It's like so crazy. And I saw a take on it that was about like how it's actually like red pilled language. He doesn't even know what he, what he means by that is he sees like a woman who does Pilates as a high value woman. It's like not even about this woman in particular or her body. It's about like some like I want to be able to tell dudes that like I'm dating a woman who like does Pilates all this. Exactly. Yeah, they talk about that whole, the obsession with high value women and what you need to do to be a high value man. At one point, there are like fans that come up to him. Like, I just want to tell you that you changed my life. Like you just, my life is so much better because of you all I want to be used like you. And the, the documentarian asks them, he's like, so what changed your life like that he told you? And they're like, Like they, that he told me, he was like, men start when you're born, you're worth nothing. And you have to work for your value.

And so then Lou goes, okay, and then like, what do you guys think about women then? And he goes, women are born with beauty. Women are born with beauty. They come with value. They don't have to earn it. That's so odd because there's like a way in which that doesn't even make sense. No, it doesn't make sense. And there's a way in which I sort of, like, if I were to say that in a different way, I mean,

I think all people have worth and value at birth, identity of being human and having humanity. But like, there's a way in which that statement on its face, like, could, doesn't be used positively here. Yeah, or like kind of aligns with sort of what I believe, but I'm believing, like, a very different side of it of, like, the more life experience you get, the more empathy, like, the more you can offer a partner, the better you know yourself, the more you experience, the more, like, all of it. of these things that it's like, oh, growth equates worth. Yeah. Like, I don't know worth is right, but like growth equates like, I don't know,

increased value you can add to other people's lives. But that's not what they're talking about. They're talking about, like, they're talking about you need to, they all have to sign up for his day trading stuff. Which is, like, it's all just as they can gain value. It's a grift. It's all of it is. It's so crazy.

Every last bit of it. Yeah. We're just a grifter nation. We are, though. Yeah, we are. I read Clay, Clay, why can't I think of his. So I read Burndale, Clay Cane, Burndown Master's House. Really, really, really, really great. Okay.

Revenge historical fiction. But he also has a book called The Grift. And it's nonfiction. And it says the down. spiral of black Republicans from the party of Lincoln to the cult of Trump. And so it's all about how grift has become such a thing. And I was like, it came out in 2024. I was like, I need to read that too. Totally. I mean, you see it everywhere, right? Like everybody basically diets have been grifts forever. Like all of these things. Like it's, and maybe it's just the natural end point of capitalism

of like, I think it is. Yeah. Of just like if you just need to sell, sell, sell, sell in order to like accumulate like to become wealthy like eventually yeah there's i in our book club one of the girls is from spain and she's like i've never paid it doctor bill like what are you talking about and i'm like take us with uh can i move in with you i'll sleep on the floor i'll do whatever it's fine yes yeah it's not great i also saw like a thread today though It was like America, the land of the great, where your eyes and teeth are extra add-ons, or optional add-ons. And I was like, it's so weird.

It's so weird. And yet the whole, and yet, again, not everybody, I think there are actually quite a large contingent of us being like, hey, is this the best we could do? But there is still a large contingent being like, it doesn't get better than this. And you're like, what? What? Really? That's what I started realizing is I didn't know how much of my childhood,

I was really hearing messages that were like, but you wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It's terrible everywhere else. And it's not terrible everywhere else. It's not. No. That's not the truth. Where it is terrible, it's like that's our fault. You know what I mean? And then there's that. That is actually our bad. Yeah. In both whole world right now. We are. Yeah. It's just insane. It makes me so sad. I know. Cuba's in a blackout. I know.

We just cut off. Which is crazy. It's wild. So anyway, the Manosphere. Oh, great. Great. Right. Yeah.

Do you have any book or TV show or podcast or some recommendations now? Yes. Okay. So let me stick with TV shows briefly because I, we started there. So I haven't watched it yet. But I became aware of a show that I am very. interested in and I actually knew nothing about this real historical event. It's called The Lady. And it's starring Natalie Dormer and, oh, shoot, she was just in the Seven Dials show. She's

an up-and-coming British actress. So it's the true story of a woman who was one of the personal dressers of Sarah Ferguson, trenchant in the news right now, who murdered her lover. And it's like the whole story about that. And I am very intrigued. by that. That's like hitting on a lot of things that I'm like, wanting to know more about. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't started on my radar. You never watched any Game of Thrones, right? Is that what I watched all Game of Thrones. Okay. Someone I talked to on here recently said they didn't watch any of it. That was where I was introduced to her essentially. Yes. I loved Natalie Norman. I loved her.

I loved her. She was also in, she played Anne Boleyn in the Tudors, which I was in college. And I thought she was great as what was Marjorie Tyrell. side note we're never getting the end of those books huh that man is not finishing him oh you're right that's what you and i talked about yeah yeah i don't think i think he's like i got tired of it guys well and i i even have empathy for the fact that like he the show i think did finish out his vision but maybe in a different way that he would have done it and everybody hated it so like as a writer i would find that very hard i wouldn't be motivated to write a book that i'm like think a lot of people are going to be pretty bad.

I know. And like, because there are, I feel like there would be some people who just wouldn't buy it because the show was bad. And then the people who are buying it are like, please do way better than the show, but no pressure. Totally. And it's like, I think he could because I think like, I mean, I think the big issue of Deinaris's like evil turn.

I actually thought was very interesting, but I thought the problem with the show was it was too compressed. I agree. I just needed to take time. Right. And so I think in a book, you could do that. And it could be very cool where you're like, by the end of it, you're like, oh, I thought she was the hero and I realized she's the villain.

Like that's very cool. Yes. But it took us, like, it went too quickly, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. Yeah. You could feel the pressure on the writers.

Yeah. What about you? Any TV shows you'd recommend or that you're wanting to watch? So the other one that I just finally started is the pit. I'm finally watching it. Have you seen any of it? I have seen a few episodes, but I'm not a religious watcher of it. Yeah.

I had not. I didn't watch any of the first season. I was so hardcore in my audiobook era, which I still am. And actually the book I would, the book I'm going to talk about, I was so good last night that I was just like, I don't even, it's a great TV show for the record. So for people who don't know, it's in, basically in a Pittsburgh ER. and my lungs decided to just give out right when we need to record. Each episode is one hour in the shift. So that's kind of like a fun structure for it, basically.

Noah Wiley is the main character. But yeah, if you like medical dramas, you'll enjoy it. It is. I remember seeing people when it was airing say that it was so realistic that it was closer to documentary. And that's what made me scared that there was like, not scared. But like I don't, I don't love watching surgeries be done. So I thought like a lot of that was in it. And it's there. But it really is. I see how the other thing that I had been seeing all about it last year was how health care workers were like, this is one of. of the better depictions we've seen, especially of the emotional ups and downs of one day in the ER. And I see what they mean about that because they're the end of episode three in the first season. Because Gare's the one who told me I had to, he was like, you have to. I was like, okay, start watching it on the treadmill or something. It's so sad. But then you're reminded that the healthcare workers have to go help the next person.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, you do, I remember, I remember I say it like it was so long ago, but I texted him even and I was like, I don't, I don't know how they do it. Like I so much respect to the people who can like know, because that's one of the things they grapple with early on that like patients will die. Maybe every every day of the week on one of your weeks or whatever. And you just have to keep rolling with it. So it's very emotional. I will say that. I don't think I could be. it. I watched the first episode and then I watched two and three and I was like, I don't, I'm not ready for the next one yet. Yeah. Yeah, but it is really good. Yeah, I've heard that too. And I, yeah, I've seen a few episodes. I really enjoyed it too. I am not in a place where clearly gravitating to less weighty things right now. I don't know why I tend to do the opposite, it, but I have learned that I do. I love it. Have you, were you, have you seen any of the, like, rhetoric around?

So, um, we get to talking about podcasts. I was going to mention this one, but they did a deep dive episode about it of Michael Crichton's estate suing, um, because they think it's too close to ER. Like, it is actually a very interesting story because Noah Wiley was in ER. Yeah. It was originally pitched as an ER spin off. Okay. The Creighton finally didn't sign off.

So they removed some elements of it, but it's a, essentially like still a very close to like what they were originally going to pitch as the ER spin-off. So it's like this very interesting battle around like is it like TIP or is it not? Because it's like all medical dramas feel really similar. Right. Well, so I don't know. Was ER the hour by hour too? I don't think it was.

But when they did approach. So it was kind of the thing that launched Noah Wiley and George Clooney. Right. In the 90s. And so when they did approach, they were like, we're going to do an ER spin-off and it's going to be hour by hour. And so when the Crichton family didn't, Crichton estate didn't sign off on that, they said, okay, well, it's not going to be an ER spinoff. But it basically was this very similar to what they pitched. They just said it's not an

ER spinoff. And they were kind of like, wait a second. Like, you know, and so and I don't really have a side here. I think arguments for either way, but it was an interesting thing to do a little bit of a deep dive on. Interesting. Okay. Well, I'm going to go down that rabbit hole at some point. Do you have any other TV shows? TV shows not hugely. I have a couple movies. So I saw recently, I saw Pillion. Did you see it in theaters?

I did. It was in ours for like three days. I thought it would be more than three days. Okay, go ahead. One of the benefits of living in L.A. I know. A lot of many. So I saw it over the,

weekend with some friends. Nice. And I made a fatal choice, which was I had to go to the bathroom and I moved the moment that Alexander Scars Guard went full frontal. How rude of the universe? I came back and my friend was like, you, he was naked and I was like, what? Oh my God. So if you don't know, it's a story. It's starring a young man. I think he played Dudley-Dersley, actually, in Harry Potter. He was the child actor who played Dudley-Dersley, grown-up, and he gets involved in this BDSM relationship with this older motorcycle man played by Alexander Sparsgaard. He's a motorcycle man.

I don't know. I don't know what they call him in the movie. No, it works. I like it. And leather daddy, I guess is what he is. And he, yeah, it's a very interesting story about love and self-exploration and, I don't know. I really, I liked it a lot. Nice.

And I'm wondering. And I miss Alexander Scarcer, it's penis. And I will never forgive myself. Dude, his actors on act. Was that what it was? What his dad was so funny? Or no. No, yeah.

So that was really funny. And then after it, I saw an interview where someone was like, are you, like, embarrassed that he did Pileon or whatever, or that he did BDSM? And he's like, I'll be embarrassed if his acting is bad. And I was like, that is the answer. Sweets have a very healthy attitude about sex maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that, I think that that family obviously has been in the business. Yeah. I was just trying to figure out when it's going to stream. I know. I know. I don't know. Yeah, I was going to see it, but it happened. It came and went too quickly. Kind of like Alexander. It came and went to the bathroom, too. I was like, I feel like now safe, we're not going to miss anything. And then, yeah. Yes. What about you? What are you? Well, my movie experience that I thought I was going to be able to make content about. And I just, I mean, I kind of did. But anyway. life is life. I got to see Harley just burped really loud. Hopefully no one didn't eat. I didn't hear it.

I was like, what just happened? Okay. I got to see Project Hail Mary in 70 millimeter IMAX. Oh gosh, how cool. Yes. So you were talking about the perks of L.A. There's one perk. There are two perks in Indiana. One is Wild Geese Bookshop. And two is that we have a 70 millimeter IMAX. And they're only like 14 in the whole country. So it's one thing I can hold on to. But, and I didn't even realize that we were getting to see it a week before. So for most people, it's airing today as this episode airs. But we got to go see it on the 13th from Friday the 13th. It's my new favorite adaptation of all time.

It is one of the best adaptations I've ever seen. like the other i listened to it that's the other other part and it's one of those where like anyone asked like how do i get into audiobooks which are the best that one in dungeon crawler carl which is always so hard to say those two are what like everyone talks about being so good and it was i got so lucky that that was like the third audiobooks that i listened to um and i cried so much when i listened to it and i was like i wonder and i had i mean I listened to it like eight months ago. I know because I went back into my stories to grab stuff.

So there had been time, but I was like, I don't know. Like, I think I'll be emotional, but who knows? And I was like, I think you cried for the last 35 minutes. And I was like, it's so beautiful. So I loved it. I loved it. It's one of the best adaptations. I do think like, because I was thinking about on the way home,

if a 16 hour audio book or like a 600 page book or the fact that there is like science explained within the book and I can't tell some people are like yeah it really wasn't that difficult for me it wasn't but I can never tell when people are like how sciencey is it I'm like I don't know I'm like people who I think would say like oh it was not a problem dislike it and people who are like I'm scared are like oh I understood it all so all of that to say if like a 16 hour audio book doesn't work for you. This, I think it's like two hours and 30 minutes. I can't believe how true they stayed to all of the like emotional beats of the story.

It was so good. I was so emotional. And it's one of those things where when the trailer came out last year, some wonderful people on TikTok were like, if you have not read this book, don't watch the trailer. And so then I immediately started listening like the day after the trailer came out. So for the sake of that, I'm not going to talk about anything else. But if anyone wants to ask me questions, they can DM me.

But it's a space. It's a space. For the most part, it's an epic space movie. Like, if that intrigues you, you will enjoy it. You're really selling me on it. I think you will love it. And then we'll have so many things to talk about. I got to watch it. I am a person who's like in general a little freaked out by space.

And I'll be honest, like I don't examine my. to know why, which is like, you know, I'm like deathly afraid of spiders, like even small ones. So, so it like I thought it looked like a beautiful adaptation like Brian Reynolds. Like there was, or I'm sorry, Ryan Gosling. Um, and, uh, not all lions are the same person. No, no, no, no. Um, the one Ryan theory is going to be my podcast. I start. There's just one Ryan. Um, um, It's getting weird. My day quoth wearing off. It's getting weird. We're both just limping our way through this one. People are going to be looking me like, what?

I'm like, my hands are just shaking. I took my inhaler. I'm all hyped up. Holly's crashing from dayclam. I'm in the caffeine. I'm coming in hot. So, but now it's like, now it's higher on my list. I definitely, I want to see it. You will love it. It's, it's. So, like, it's. So, like, Like, I don't know. The emotional beats are fantastic. And I feel like it feels less sciencey than like even like interstellar. And so like.

And there's humor. So it that's right. There's a lot where like it is like interstellar. If you love interstellar, you're going to love Project Hill Mary. But you might love Project Hill Mary and never see Interstellar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. Okay.

That's my long-winded thought. I like it. Good to know. Oh, I loved it. so much. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Yeah. Do you have any podcasts that have been like tickling your brain lately besides obviously this wonderful podcast? Well, there is this one. I love Good Hang with Amy Polar so much. She's so good. I haven't listened to the Viola Davis one yet, but I keep sharing the clips because I'm just like, Viola Davis is so cool. She's just amazing. Yeah. And I actually just

listened a couple weeks ago to her Judge Stone. She co-wrote a book with James Patterson. Amazing. It is really, really, really good. And I will say, because I had people ask. And so, no, I haven't read James Patterson in years. And for people who are like, does it feel like a James Patterson book? It feels like Viola Davis pretty much wrote a book and then partnered with a pro to, like be like let's do this like this story is very viola davis and then if you've listened to her or read her memoir there's like even more where like you like it's so fascinating because you don't always have like 10 hours of an author's autobiography or a memoir when you then read their first fiction so it feels very much like viola davis but that got me oh podcast so then she's on amy pollers good

good hang with Amy Polar this week. So I want to watch that. But I love good hang. And the other one, actually, these are the main two that suck around for me once audiobooks happened is so true with Caleb Heron. He is one of the funniest people in the world. He is so funny and also so like kind and wonderful. I love that. It makes me laugh so much in so many different ways. So I love so true. We always ask guess what's what's so true to you is one of the questions they all have to answer. That's a good one. I've seen clips of that on social media, but I haven't really like watched or listened to him. He's so fun, especially with Drew Afuolo, like they're really good friends. I love her. And Brittany Broski as well. They all like get along really well. Yeah. Okay. I got to check that one out.

Yeah. I love it. Have you been listening to any? Yeah. I don't like, yeah, I don't like being alone with my thoughts these days. So it's like a nonstop podcast fest. But a couple, I mean, I have like a lot of them that I listen to. Like if books could kill or maintenance phase. Like those are some staples for me.

I love culture study podcasts. Like I like anything that's very much like, let's take like an informed look at like low culture at times. I find that very enjoyable. But ones that I wanted to talk about are, so I mentioned it earlier. There's one called infamous. I don't know if I always agree with their takes, but it does a lot of stuff that's like really in the zeitgeist. Like, for example, I just listened to one that came out today that was about like looks maxing

and twin flame. Oh, yeah. Like in cell culture has kind of like, I don't know that we've like the way that we're talking about like this grift. And they did one recently actually that was a fascinating listen, which was like the Deepak Chopra emails that came out. I'm like scrolling their episodes. Oh, that one's excellent. Because it basically talks about some of the stuff we talked about before where it's like how one of the things that you see in those emails is Deepak Chopra kind of trying to create a spiritual,

I mean, he's not the first one to do this, but a spiritual framework for Jeffrey Epstein to be like, you're going to be a spiritual person even if you're a billionaire, like, which like historically religions have been like, money is evil. great is bad like you want to be like you know penitent and humble and then like and i'm sure it's not just america but like now we have this sort of like what did they call it that's like the something about bounty or whatever where it's almost like we flip that on its head where it's like oh the fact that i'm rich means god loves me oh it's called a gospel prosperity gospel that's where it's very with uh christian nationalism right exactly and so they're like talking about that and like

I don't know. It was, it was a really interesting. Yes. And so, it's so damaging to act like, because I'm so good, my life's this good. There are some really good people who have some really difficult lives. Right. Right. And like, right. And I think that that also erodes at empathy, right? And then you can say, like, if somebody's life is going poorly or something bad happens, so it's like, oh, they deserve it. Like, that is a pretty lateral move out of that, which is like really good. So I enjoy that podcast.

And then the other one that I have been really into. And I know this has been in the zeit guys and I actually haven't watched the Netflix doc, but it's called Curse of America's Next Top Model. And it basically has that like reexamines, you know, America's Next Top Model and speaks to a lot of the women who were contestants and like talks about like how deeply fucked up all of this stuff was. And it's like, I mean, I agree. with you and we talked, you said this earlier about like, it's, it's interesting to be like,

oh, this is so bad. But if there's another season, I'm not, I don't know that I would watch it, but I'm not like necessarily opposed to it, even knowing all the exploitation and stuff, which is the thing. And I should probably examine that. But like, I grew up watching that, of course, right? And I do remember ingesting some really toxic stuff from that. And like, it pleasurable in a way to watch this thing that was like humbling women in really horrible ways, you know. And I remember, like, I never wanted to be a model that was never there, but, but like the lens and then like the message I was getting when they're like, this is what it's like, you have to do things in horrible conditions. So I remember just being like, well, you have to

be prepared. That's what the job is like. Exactly. And it's like, no, like there is not an agency that's going to like make you switch races and be in blackface fucking crazy. It happened multiple times. And like it's just really. And so they do an interesting job of, you know, and I think this is really in the conversation now after the Netflix doc and all of it of kind of like unpacking like what's Tyra's culpability. And Tyra herself is like in a framework of certain things. You know, she was one of two black women who became supermodels at the time. And like basically they were pitted against each other and like all these.

But I don't know. Did you watch the show on Netflix at all? Oh yes. Yeah. And then I didn't even. even know, but McKenzie and I were talking about it. She auditioned. So then the episode with her, like, she has some BTS moments of it. She was like this close to being on the show. Whoa. I know. I'm kind of glad for her she wasn't because it seems to have fucked up a lot of

people's eyes. Oh, that's how she feels too. We have an ongoing joke that, um, like, her memoir is going to be like three feet from danger. Because like she was like really sad when she didn't get invited into the ditty parties, like all her friends were. And now she's like, oh, okay. That wasn't too bad. And then like, in Miss America, she, because she came that close to our current president. And, like, didn't get pulled completely into that either. So I'm like, you were just always like three seconds from danger. So totally. Like all these near misses that it's like, I'm sure we're disappointing in the moment. And then you look back on it. Oh my God. Thank God. yes and she just has the craziest like random stories like that um but we were yeah we we both just

ended up watching it basically and then talking about it but i was like the other thing that was interesting to me was it was one of those shows where like i didn't experience it in real time because there was like everything that i was kept from as a kid then i tried to like catch up on in college. So that was one of those shows where there were so many seasons of it. And I was like, ooh, I can finally watch this now. Yeah. And I'm just like, I remember like, I remember being like, yeah, she really has like put on weight, like agreeing with that. Right. And then it was reminding me, what it really reminded me up to is the Jessica Simpson picture that we all know about where we were like, wow, she was so fat. And I look at her and I'm like, she is gorgeous there.

I know. Or Brittany. I believed it. Totally. We totally did. And because we were being guided to believe it. And that was the conversation. And I'm with you. I remember the same thing, too, being like, I guess you don't have what it takes to be a top model. And not necessarily having me. Because I mean, I didn't watch it in real time either. But what I remember was there were always marathons of it going. Yes. You would always sit down. Like, I remember getting ready for prom and, like, watching a marathon. You know, in college, you'd be like, what are you doing Saturday? It's like, I guess I'm going to watch nine episodes of America's next top model, you know? Right. So you were sort of like, I don't know.

I just, I remember that too of this sort of being like, I'm taking it at face value. Yeah. What women have to do in order to be a model. And that this is okay to speak about women this way and that this is actually like, you need to have the thick skin in order to and like I think that's done a generation of us some pretty good damage you know yeah yeah because I I felt so removed because it was never what I would go after so I'm just like oh this is just what it's like and she's just preparing them which there was also that commentary of like she she said she wanted to like help make the industry

different than what she grew up in, but actually kind of ended up just pandering right back to it. Totally. Instead of making it different, she just kind of passed down the trauma and was like, well, you're just going to have to do this. Yeah. Totally. And I think what I found interesting about the curse of America's Next Top Model podcast, too, was like they did try to do some reckoning with like, there were ways in which, I mean,

Tyra was maybe putting women of color on TV in like a mainstream way that you weren't seeing or like a trans woman or like and then of course you find out later like even after the podcast it was funny because they did a recap episode after they watched the Netflix thing and they were like oh yeah we actually gave her props for like the way she handled this and then like they talked to this contestant that we didn't get to talk to and she was like actually it was horrible and then so never mind you know but it's it's not that there weren't things that she was doing that were like revolutionary but like there was so little care taken in some ways to like prepare. And like the fact that they weren't paid, they weren't compensated.

Like I mean, how many times have those things rerun? And like they're not making money off of that. And that's wild. It really is. It's crazy. And I didn't see the documentary yet. I kind of felt like overkill because I just listened to this podcast. But.

Oh, yeah. But the clip that I've seen go around and that I've read about of Tyra being like, I've owned up to it. I hope when they come for you, you're as open as I've been. I was like, what a crazy reaction. There's a lot of that. Like, we think she thought she like killed it. Yeah. Like, totally rewrote the whole narrative.

Like, totally proved she was a victim. Like, I think she was like, I. I'm going to look great. Because she's the main producer of it. That's like the failed part. Or maybe she even like, I'm with you. I think she probably did or doesn't. I don't think she sees herself as having really done anything as damaging as I think

a lot of. Yeah. But then I think the flip side is like maybe she doesn't care. Maybe she just cares that she's in the conversation. You know what I mean? Like maybe it's like all publicity is good even if I come off like an asshole. Mm-hmm. Big trench coat.

Like there are just so many. fascinating. We understand to be like the wardrobe of the villain. I know. So crazy. I was trying to, I'm like trying to think like, it was reminding me of how Olivia Pope talked about how clothing is armor. Yeah. Like I think of that line way too frequently.

But I'm like, is that what, like, did she feel protected? Because she just looks like a villain. Totally. She looks like a villain. We understand trench coats to be like, you know, reductively like a thing that he wears or like a thing that you're going to like flat like you're hiding. It is so like what a strange visual symbol. It's so weird.

Like I would think you would almost want to like feminize yourself. Like look softer. Right. Not that she has to. It's just what I would be doing if I was trying to soften my image. Totally. Which again makes me wonder maybe she's not. She doesn't care.

Yeah. I don't care as long as I'm the topic of conversation. It's wild. Yeah. Because I can't imagine that or it. I can in terms of empathy, but because that will never be me. Yeah. Like, I understand I have a podcast.

I do not want to be famous, famous, like, not even a little bit. So I forget that some people are like, I want all the attention. Or maybe once you're also at that level, you're like, I can't slip. You know, like I can't have less than what I have now. Yeah, that's true, too. I don't know. I don't know. I don't either.

What about books? Are there any books you've read? Yes. So I just started one that Gare happened to tell me about a couple days ago. And I was like, how did I not even know about it? It is from a debut author. It's called The Plans I Have for You by L-A-I. I just have like a short synopsis pulled after a subway altercation goes viral. Shelly, who loses everything. Her law school future, her internship, and the like, she was building, forcing her to return home and start over. When a mysterious woman offers her a path to reinvention and revenge, Shelley is pulled into a dangerous plan that quickly spirals beyond her control. And I'm having a hiccup attack. So hold on. So I try to scare them out of you from across the screen. Yes. When I like, I think it's just when I'm having breathing, I guess it makes sense that your diaphragm just because when I take my inhaler, I tend to have hiccups like, yeah. 40 minutes later, which is probably right now. Okay. So this one, one, it feels very unique.

While also I have like the most comps for it, which seems kind of odd, but it has some of the vibes of like such a fun age. Okay. Yellowface by R.F. Kwong. I'm not done with UNET by yet by Jesse Q. Soutanto. and almost surely dead by Omina Oktar. So it has a lot of vibes in one, but it's also still feels pretty unique. But it's kind of like the main character,

someone really does just approach her in her life and is like, I've been in a situation where I needed revenge too. And so you kind of, I'm, because I think I'm at 40%, the whole time you kind of are like, So how, why did she pick her? Like you have so many questions that are not getting answered. And it's one where it's like, is it slightly magical? Is it spiritual? Is it like pure psychological, like literary fiction? It's very fun. I like it a lot. And I'm listening to it in case anyone listens. I'm liking it as an audiobook. Okay. I have to check that one out. That sounds great. Yes. I know. What's funny is Gary, just texting me and asked how far I am in it because we unintentionally buddy read her buddy reading it

I love that mm-hmm um what else that wasn't me when I pulled um I just finished one called oh no actually this one because of what we were just talking about it probably makes sense to mention this one this is one that I am eyeball reading it is called reality in ruins And the subtitle is, yes, how conspiracy theory became an American evangelical crisis. So the really short version, for concerns, citizens, and anyone who's lost relationships because of conspiracy theories, a historian and theologian explores why paranoia happens. It's unique entanglement with evangelicalism in America and how to cope in today's culture of fake news and alternative facts. I got recommended it on NetGalley and I was like, you are right.

I am interested in this. And it is, I'm 20 pages in and I'm like, this is fascinating, especially from a historian, a theologian. I kind of, you feel both of those perspectives. That's really interesting and very relevant, terrifying elements. To what we started with. Yeah, kind of the story of America currently. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. those are my, those are the books in my life right now. I just finished Vigil by George Sanders, my boyfriend. Yes. This, this podcast when we meet has like recently, unintentionally become the like, Hallie's Horny for podcast. I agree about that.

But I didn't love it. I didn't, I mean, he is like, I think one of the great living American writers. Mm-hmm. I loved so much of his stuff. And there was something interesting here, but it didn't. So it's a story of it's like this man, K.J. Boone is dying and he's been like an oil tycoon and like pretty directly linked to climate crisis and climate change.

And so as he's dying, our main character, Jill, is like a spirit who she died young. She was blown up by a bomb that was meant for her husband. And at the time of her death, she was like blown into the consciousness of the man who planted the bomb. And it was like such a pro. And she has this like very profound transcendent experience to be like, I don't even blame him for what he's done. Who could like hear all the things in his life. Like who could he have been other than what he is? And like so it's this very like profound experience of like forgiveness and identification.

And so she sees her goal as she's like, sometimes. comes to earth when somebody's dying to like comfort them and kind of like give them spiritual sucker and um really struggles with this guy who is not willing to admit his own culpability in different things and like so there's a lot of like really interesting ideas at play his writing is great and i didn't love it and i that's a odd thing just i feel like i can say that about george saunders because his career is just fine but like yeah i know what you mean yeah i'm like me saying this about this like massive book isn't going to make a big difference. And it's like it's not even that it's not worth reading.

Like if you're interested in it. And it's not very long. It's like 175 pages or something. Like it goes. I didn't know it's super short. It's super short. It just is like I came out of like Lincoln and the Bardo his last novel being like this all time.

That's what I want to read more like since we talked about those two. So that's probably what I will start with. Well, and I bet Lincoln and the Bardo is an amazing audio book too because it's I've heard. Yeah. So not that you couldn't also eyeball read it, which is a term I hadn't heard before, but I like that. Steph introduced it to me. I like that.

Yeah, it helped. That last night. And then I also want to, and I'm about to start, I haven't started it yet, but I'm going to, I have it next to me. The gifts that bind us. You love that cover. Yeah, it's a YA book, and it's the second, I don't know if it's a series or a, trilogy or maybe even a duology by Caroline O'Donohue, who I have more or less like fallen in love with over the last like year.

And her first book was called All Our Hidden Gifts or the first book in this thing was and it's about it's about this like 16 years. It's kind of like Dairy Girls meets like tarot fantasy. It's very cool. And so this is the next one. So I know I'm going to like it because I find her very fun to read. That looks fun. Yeah.

And then I also want to plug, I got to read a couple weeks ago, a book that isn't out yet, which is like my prerogative of having writer friends. It's called The Chaperones by Amy Meyerson, who's vocalize was incredible and came out in December. I'm pretty sure this one's coming out in either December might get pushed to January. But it's basically like a very interesting, it's kind of like a cop might be like big little lies. It's like a family or like a school. Like the PTA goes of this like very rich school goes on a weekend field trip to Catalina Island off the coast of Southern California. I'm sorry, the Channel Islands, not Catalina Island. And people wind up hurt and secrets come to light.

And there's a body. It's great. And it's just Amy is such an incredible writer. Like both in terms of. story and prose like it's it's really really well done yeah i don't think i think because you're saying she's not quite sure oh i did find it on good reads there it is yeah it's like i don't have a cover but yeah you're right i think this is it so far out yeah well i added it so yay at some point there will be a cover there yes and don't link it yes that sounds good did you see there's a big little truths

I did see that. Okay, can I? That's a terrible title. Thank you. It felt so lazy. Like, I was like, what? And the other thing that's weird to me is they did a whole other second season of the TV show. And to then have the book come out so long after, it feels, I wasn't as excited as I expected to be. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I understand that title, why I,

they picked it big little lies big little treats it's a bad title yeah and it also makes me retroactively go was big little lies a bad title and i just liked it more like that's a good point you know um what are big like it's not it's a very early 2000s title so yeah maybe we've yeah yeah grown out of it or something yeah and i it's that's interesting and i um I agree with you. That's odd. Like there was so like publicly that second season of the show, which the second season was no, Buono. And, and so I'm assuming this is like probably very different than the second season because it's like, I'm assuming the second season was the showrunner's idea. I think so. This is going to be her idea. But like, I don't know. It's interesting to return to that well after it's been like so huge and famous, you know? And I wasn't ever. left thinking there as much more to know. I was never like wanting a sequel, I guess is kind of what I'm saying too. Yeah. It makes me feel like in a very cynical way and like this is probably not true because I, Leanne Moriarty is like an institution. But it makes me like there's a cynical part

of me that's like, oh, did we need to make sure this next book was a hit or something? You know what I mean like I'm actually not the case I'm sure she was like oh I feel like there's something unfinished I want to revisit but like I don't know I feel that way you know I think so either or I don't think I do yeah it was weird this is a weird one that is an odd one yeah sweet that one's not really on our list here are all the books that aren't on our list oh my gosh it's always so fun to think about but I really just won't like you're saying when it's like not a big author. I'm just like, I'll privately tell people what I thought about a book.

But I just keep reading. I also know like there's so much that goes into it. Like I'm a mood reader. So it's like something could have been good. Yeah. And I was just not the right for it. And then not everyone's right for every book. Totally.

That's what makes it hard. If it's not like really bad, it's going to be hard for me to like need to talk about it, you know. I agree. I agree. And like, yeah, you're right. Mood reader and also like sometimes books hit at different points in our lives. Like I've definitely had books where I was like, oh, I love that book and then I rewrite it like 10 years later. And I was like, huh, it doesn't hit. I've wondered about that. Yeah. I've heard about that with some. Yeah. Yeah. It's just different. Yeah. But yeah. I unfortunately have to go edit some more stuff.

Fair enough. Thank you for a long. This is very natural. For everyone.