Bookwild - Tessa Wegert's Cinematic, Multi-Genre Shana Merchant Series

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

This week, we talk with Tessa Wegert about her fast paced, cinematic, New York based Shana Merchant series!Follow us on Instagram:Gare @gareindeedreadsKate @thegirlwiththecookonthecouchTessa @tessawegertCheck out the Shana Merchant series here!  We aren't including the synopsis to her newest book in the series Devils at the Door to protect spoilers for the other books. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Guys, welcome to the Killing the Tea podcast. This is Gare and Kate. And we are going to be discussing all things, chills, thrills, and kills. Kate and I are going to be talking about our favorite books, TV shows, and movies that are in the thriller or crime fiction genre, as well as some reading habits and other items related to how we met on Bookstagram that will fit in with this podcast. So thank you so much for joining us and we hope that you have fun and get totally terrified. We're so excited that you're joining us tonight. Tessa Weirte, Devils at the Door is officially out in the world. For those listening, he's showing the book.

Yeah, for those listening, I'm holding my copy. My dear at heart. And yeah, this is your fifth Shannon Burnship novel. It is. Yes. Hard to believe, honestly, because I don't know, I sometimes talk about this, but for people who aren't aware, I wrote death in the family, the first book in the series is a standalone. It wasn't intended to be a series at all. So the fact that now we're at book five in the series, and I'm working on a sixth that's going to be coming out in 2024 is kind of mind-blowing to me.

That was going to be my first question. Mine too. Was it really? She just like jumped right into it. We're totally jelling. This is great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, like, I was hoping that Shanna was going to end up, like, what is her name, Patricia Cornwell? Case Carpetta. Oh, yes. Yes. Like, I will take, I will take 25 books of Shana. Yeah, totally. And mine was like, I wanted to, because I was just talking to Vanessa Lily with Blood Sisters. And it was the same thing where she wasn't intending on it being a series. but then like there was interest in that and she like knew where she could turn it into a series. So like what was it like after you wrote that first one like starting to think of it as a series? Yeah. And I actually, Vanessa and I talked about this because we did an event together last month,

I guess, in November. And it was kind of a similar situation. It sounds like for both of us where we had this opportunity to turn the first book into the first book of the series. And then it was a case of going back to see what breadcrumbs we had already planted that we could follow or what opportunities that we had to dig deeper into the character, into the character's backstory. And that's definitely what I ended up doing with Death in the Family. When I started working on the second book in the series, I took the ending of Death and the Family and I made it at the beginning of the dead season, the second book. And then it turned out that I had already laid the groundwork with this backstory of Shana. So for people who don't know,

she's a senior investigator with the New York State Police. She lives in the Thousand Islands, way upstate on the border of Canada in New York State. And she used to be a homicide detective with the NYPD. And so with the very first book, you find out that she was abducted by the serial killer that she had been hunting down on the case in New York. And she's the only person that of the victims of his that they know if she's the only person who escapes. And then he eventually follows her upstate.

and becomes a constant presence in a lot of different ways in her life. But because I had that backstory already down with the first book, there was so much to dig into there. There was so much about her anxiety over the situation, her PTSD, her history with them. Because the other thing, I think that maybe sets the series apart or kind of like the hook of the series is that she has a personal history with the serial killer.

So that was something that I could explore over time from one book to the next two and just, yeah, pull the reader along into her life and expand on her universe with every new book in the series. That is so cool. I love the idea that, like, you're, like, going back to read your own writings to be like, what could I say is, like, my own foreshadowing, basically? That is, like, such a cool process. Well, and I kind of had no choice because I have never known from, really from one book to the next, how many books. there will ultimately be. So sometimes I get a one book deal, sometimes I get a two book deal, and then I know at least for the next little while what I'm working on, but I had no idea when I

wrote, let's say, the first two, you know, the second book and I had that initial deal. I had no idea there would be a sixth book eventually in the series. So because I don't have, because I'm not creating an overarching series arc right from the get go, I do have to just, I have to work with what I have. right? I can't go back and rewrite the books. I can't incorporate something new or make changes after the fact. So I really have to look and see what I've already done. And that's why a lot of the characters that you meet in the later books, you will recognize from the earlier books. I'll go back and I'll pick a character who maybe was just a, you know, a throwaway character who became an alibi for someone or just had a couple of lines or you meet very briefly in Shayna's new town in Alexandria Bay.

And then that could become a primary character in one of the later books or sometimes a case that she's working on that I just scrape the surface of in one of the books becomes the major part of the plot in another book in the series down the line, which is fun for me because then I do get to go back and reread and really pick and choose what I want to focus on now and where I think the most, what I think the most interesting route to take will be for readers is they get to know her better and learn more about her life and follow along with her, with her cases and with her personal journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible too because it's like, I love that a lot of authors will say, well, I had planned for three, four, five because I had this idea, this idea,

this idea. And with you, it's like you finish one and you have this like waterfall effect that you've created yourself without realizing it because you're so like, you know, wrapped up in telling this story that, you know, more are coming and more are coming. And the thing that I love about this, well, there's so much I love about the series. Like, I'm obsessed. But they're so cinematic. And I don't know if it's because like it's close to where I live, which nobody writes books up here. So, but it's close to where I live. But they're also like so cinematic. But like, whenever you have a series, you have like a schick, right? So you have like heavy police procedural serial killer or different like tropes that people play around with in the thriller genre that

are like really present in all of the books. And with yours like death in the family obviously locked room mystery, you know, but like each one feels like you're toying with a different trope in the crime fiction genre. So it's not, it doesn't get like, you know, stale or unbelievable because every single one is like a serial killer thriller, a locked room mystery, you know, like different, like cold cases and like different things that are popping up in these stories that like aren't reminiscent of another one in the series. Yeah, it's like one big mashup. It's one big subgenre mashup. It's like it's like the best thing in the entire world to read that because you don't get sick of the same trope over and over again and you never know what to expect.

Like, I'm at the point now. Like, I don't care if I know what the plot is. Like, I'm just going to go in blind and see where it takes me. And it's kind of like trying to avoid like a spoiler of like a movie that you love. You know, when you're like, like, when I was sent this, I was like, I'm not even going to read the back cover. The devil's at the door. Like, I'm not even going to read the back cover. I'm just going to like, when I pick it up, I'm going to pick it up.

and I'm just going to start and, like, see where it goes. And honestly, like, I could you not. This is probably my favorite one in the series so far. Oh, I love to hear you say that. It is so, so good. I cannot put it down. I was, like, pissed about going to the dentist today. I was like, I need to, like, read.

I need to know what happens. But this is, like, so cinematic. It's, like, the atmosphere that you build in your stories is so wild to me because you can just, like, picture it, like, on screen. without a doubt. Well, the setting plays such a huge part, which I think is probably, that's probably one of the reasons why it feels that way, is that I really try hard to create a sense of place with every book.

And of course, the reader is returning to a similar region, or basically the same region with every book. But I focus on a different, slightly different area, like a different island or a different town along the St. Lawrence River up there in the Thousand Islands. and some of that is for my own benefit because I want to maintain interest in the series. It's a lot of the same characters, and it's definitely not the same plot by any means from one book to the next, and I think some of that comes across on what you're saying about mixing

subgenres. It's conscious to some extent on my part because I do want to keep readers interested, and I don't want it to ever feel like it's repetitive, even though you have a lot of recurring characters and even though the setting is largely the same. So I think some of it too was I've spent 20 years visiting that area every single summer and I know it's so well. And I just came back from an event and Clayton up there last weekend and was jotting down notes for the next book. You know, things I came across that I wanted to incorporate people. I don't know if I should say this actually out loud online. People in town sometimes do inspire me, the people that I see. see like little character traits sometimes I'll incorporate because it's just such a unique part of

the world. And honestly, I feel so many people are not familiar with it and have never had the chance to go. And it means so much to me. So it's, it's really fun for me to dig into it with every new book and try to figure out what else I can convey about the area to them so that if you've never been there, you still feel like you have a sense for the place. Yeah, 100%. Especially like Clayton, And like, that's going to be so much fun because Clayton always reminds me of, like, the cute, like, quaint town that you would, like, see on the news as I'm describing. Like, nothing bad ever happens here. Clayton plays a really big part in the sixth book, actually.

So I was, it was a trip for a book launch party, but it was also a research trip to some extent because I did have to take some notes. And the sixth book actually takes place in the winter. So it was going to be there this time of year and check that all out. Well, if you have to go back to Clayton and you need a part. partner in crime. I'll take you out to lunch because I owe you a lunch and I know some great spots to eat and Clayton so I'll be pumped to that. That sounds great. It's a date. We'll make it happen. Yeah, that'll be so much fun. I'll just be Googling it over here in solidarity. It was one of the books, though. We've talked before on the podcast about like books that like make you

Google the location because like it's like not sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes like you kind of know where the person is, but like the place doesn't matter as much. But this was another one where I was like Googling specific things and like looking through everything, being like, oh my gosh, this is adorable and wishing I didn't live in Indiana and all that stuff. Well, I do try to work real, real places and real locations and real islands into the books as much as I can for that reason. because I as a crime fiction, like an, you know, obsessive crime fiction reader myself, I love to pick up those books where, you know, you're familiar with it, and then you try to see if the author gets it right.

So it's a lot of pressure on the one hand, especially when I talk to you, Gere, because you know the area is so well. So every time you say that you enjoy a book, I feel like a huge sense of relief because if Gair signs off on it and I have your seal of approval, then at least I know I've done something, right? but yeah, it's fun to know that readers will go out there like you're saying, Kate, and look it up and then they'll discover that the places that I describe are real places and real historic homes and fascinating history to a lot of that part of the region.

And that is stuff that I, as much as possible, work into the plot wherever I can. Yeah, yeah. And then there was, just for like anybody who is listening, there was a moment like about a year and a half ago, Pirates weekend. I was going to meet Tessa and I had a family emergency so I wasn't able to. But like that was going to be one of my things where I'm like, okay, let me buy you lunch because I want you to like have a Pirates Weekend thriller because it's like it's kind of like the little like festival they have and like I know what you did last summer.

Like there's so many different ways you could go with something like that. And there's so many people around and people travel. from all over for like something like that. So I definitely think that like, not only do you take that that atmosphere of like a small town like that, but you also like really prey on like, like you said,

like the different islands and things like that where like people who are from there really know them, but like you build it really well for people who don't visit that area because like they're like, oh, like now this makes sense as to why like people can only get here via like

jet ski or, you know, like why this is like such a popular area but it's just they're so cinematic like I just don't I don't understand how you do it I really don't that's like my thing with your writing is like the cinematography aspect of like when I'm reading it and like the atmosphere that you build is like so incredible and like I don't know how you do the cinematic aspect of it because I literally feel like it's laid out in a movie like it's very relaxing to read books because I don't have to use my imagination. Like, I just, it's like I'm in your passenger seat with you, like, riding along in that area.

I love that. It is like a film strip in my head, it feels like when I'm writing it. I can see it very clearly. I got a visual for everything. And again, I think some of that might be because I know the area so well. But like you're saying with Pirate Days, which made its way into the fourth book. So that is such a big part of the kind to kill. That was a, that was a situation where.

I was looking for, I was looking for a time and a place to set that particular story where there would be really high stakes. I think that book in particular reads like, again, talking about subgenres, it really reads like a serial killer thriller, right? Like there's a copy cat killer aspect to it and it's super fast-paced and that book, when I knew that that's the kind of book I wanted to write, what better place to set it than during pirate days? Because this is a time, like you're saying, when thousands of people, thousands of tourists descend on the town. And so if a serial killer is on the loose, those are some pretty high stakes then for the, for Shana and Tim and her team of investigators, because they're of course concerned that more people will be targeted, more people

will die at this one moment out of the whole entire year when the town is just packed to bursting. So, yeah, comes to choosing times of the year and events that happen there, some of, some of which I do make up, some of which are for sure fictional. But when you have something like pirate days to choose from, why not incorporate that, right? Oh my God, yeah. Yeah, totally. It's so good. How do you like pick? So with that one, it sounds like you kind of had the crime in mind. And so then you kind of like fit everything around it. Do you normally, so like the kind of like the crime at the core of each one, is kind of like what also like creates its own genre for each one. So how do you typically come up with like what she's going to be solving?

It's somewhat about where she is in her life and where I've left off with the previous book. So with the previous book, I don't want to say too much that will spoil it. But with the previous book, there's a major event that happens at the end of Dead Wind. That really changes the course of her life up there in the Thousand Island. And so going into the fourth book, I knew I had to address that obviously, right, because I had to pick up where we had left off, even though it's a few months later and the kind to kill. But because of that and because the serial killer presence was still like a major issue for her. And because of her personal connection to this killer and her family history and everything else, that all played a part. So I did know that I wanted that to be a major part of the plot.

And then it was just, it's always just once I, once I reach that point where I have a pretty good sense of what the story is going to be, then yeah, I sit down. I think about the setting sometimes actually comes first. But in that case, it was the fact that I knew there were things I needed to address after the third book. And then it was, what's the best setting for this? And again, pirate days seemed perfect because, yeah, all those people crammed into one little area, one little town that normally just has a couple thousand people and all of a sudden

it's overrun. But that's a fun part of it for me is with each new book, I do get to make those decisions and really think about not only what's happening in Shayna's life and what's happening with the other core characters in the series, but I do honestly sometimes take inspiration from things that readers say to when I'm in book clubs or online on Instagram. Occasionally someone will say something that will spark an idea. I don't know that I've ever actually taken an idea that someone suggested fully formed, but sometimes people say things like, oh, I would love to see Shana do this. And then I'll start to think about it. And then sometimes there is an opportunity for me to, at least to some extent, incorporate that. And more than anything else, now that this series has

legs and it just seems to keep going, knock on wood, I do want to give my ultimate goal is just to give people the best possible experience, because it just, it completely blows my mind that these characters a few years ago didn't exist. And now people say things like, it honestly makes me teary to talk about it, but people say things like, she's one of my favorite characters I've ever read,

and this is one of my favorite series, and I love Shana. And to me, I feel a huge sense of responsibility now to continue to give people the kinds of stories that they will enjoy. and that will satisfy whatever it is that they're getting from reading this series, the sense of connection maybe with her or with the area. So that's always top of mind with every new book is what can I do to make people happy?

I love that. Who can I murder to make people happy this time? Yeah, right. It's a little twisted when you think about it that way. Yeah. I'm here for it, obviously. Oh, yeah, obviously. Yeah, we're totally here.

here for that. I think the stakes in this one and Devils at the Door are probably the highest in the series because of everything that's going on in this one. So where did you, like, how did you come up with this idea for this story? Like, was this like, oh, you know, like, Shane is that, like, I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to spoil, like, any part of the book. But like, Shane is that, like, you know, a certain point in her life where, like, things can either go really well or I can just, like, completely, like, demolish it, you know? Very, very accurate. Yeah, yeah. So, like, what made you come up with this idea?

Because I feel like with this story, it's very complex and it's so unique that, like, every word matters in this book. Like, you can't take out one word in this book. Otherwise, it'll change the course of everything. because the plot is so complex and it's like this, you know, spider web effect. So I'm very curious on, like, what made you come up with with this one? Yeah, well, we're raising the stakes is concerned. Anytime you incorporate a kid, I think immediately the stakes go through the roof. So that was, that's what I did with this one is Shane's niece comes to stay with her for the fall semester from Vermont because this news about this deep dark secret that the merchant family has had for all of

these years has finally come to light. It's finally out in the public realm. And so Shana's niece now is really grappling with the knowledge that they have this tie to this killer, this notorious killer from upstate New York. And so she starts to rebel against her parents. And eventually Shane's brother feels kind of at the end of his rope and he's not sure what to do with her and he's really concerned about her future. And so he sends her to the Thousand Islands to live with Shane and Tim, who is her, Shane's partner and also he's also in law enforcement. So the idea is that they're going to try to help Henrietta get back on track, except that when Henrietta arrives in Alexandria Bay, the local kids have this morbid fascination and this this really dark kind of

interest in her family history and they know quite a bit about it because it's all out in the world now. It's been all over the family's been all over the news for months. So some kids befriend her and it's unclear whether she is possibly involved in a crime that Shana then has to investigate and it's unclear the extent to which the other kids are involved and if maybe they're kind of in cahoots with each other. And so for Shana, What a position to be in, right? Because she's, she's the aunt. She's supposed to be the caregiver and the, and the protector of her niece while she's living under her roof. And here, Henrietta is discovered literally at the scene of a suspicious drowning on Devils of an island, which is also a real place up there, just north of Alexandria Bay. It's this little uninhabited island. And this is another case of hearing things on my travels up there that just sparked a, an idea that then became a book, but I had heard that that island used to be a place where the local kids would party years ago. And now when you go there, there's all these signs tacked up

everywhere that say, danger, no trespassing, and you're not supposed to go there. It's a very steep island. It's basically just one big rock. There's a cave in it. And so, of course, I'm a crime writer. So I'm up there. I'm hearing these stories. And immediately my mind goes to, okay, well, that's the place to have a murder happen. That's the place to have, like, suspicious go down. And that's the place where in the book, the local kids go and party and get up to all kinds of wicked, bad behavior. And that's where now Shana discovers Henrietta and has to try to figure out how much does she really know about her niece and how much does she trust her. It's so, it's so wild. I, like, was dying. Because, like, I went into a blind, you know, so, like, I was like, oh, like,

Like, you know, like we get to see like a little bit more of the family tree here. And then I'm like, oh, okay. Now she's like on an island. There's body. You know? But it's just, yeah, it's so good. It's so wild. I think that like anybody who has been reading the series is going to be like completely devouring it and wanting more.

Like your DMs are going to blow up after this week. Yeah. Because all of your readers are going to be like, okay, I want like six, seven, eight, and 10 now. I will say, I will say that this one has an ending that shocked even me. Let's just put it that way. I did not expect the book to go in the direction that it went in at all. And I got three quarters of the way through and kind of went, what if I did this? It is very different from anything I've done before. And it is very unexpected. Let's just see how it pans out. And so I ran with it. and it ended up working perfect.

Like it just slotted right in there, luckily for me, because I didn't have to rewrite the whole entire book that I had so far. But yeah, it's like it was meant to be that this twist that just kind of revealed itself at the 11th hour. And funny enough, that actually happened with the book before this too, where I changed the identity of the killer toward the end of writing the book. And now I'm wondering if maybe this is a thing that really works well, Because if I don't expect who the killer is, if I don't know what's coming as the author, surely that means that it's going to be surprising to readers too.

That's my theory anyway. That is like my favorite thing when authors are like, yeah, that twist that blew your mind, it blew my mind too. It's really true. Yeah. I mean, I've had my mind blown through all of that. I've never guessed an ending in your book. And like I pride myself on being that person that's like,

this is what's going to happen. Like, nobody wants to watch a movie with me because I'm always like, I bet you this is what's going to happen. And then it does. And like, I've always, I'm always shocked. So I actually have 50 pages left because I've been like absorbing it. And then like, get ready. Doctors and dentists and dogs and all of the dees are basically like distracting me.

But I have like 50 pages left and I'm just like, I'm savoring it. Like these are the books that I don't fly through. You know, like I try to like really take my time with it. But oh my God, now I'm like, now I'm super anxious to see what's going to happen in the end. I am dying to know what you think. You have to let me, you have to DM me when you're done. Oh, 100%. 100%.

Yeah. So a lot of people that I've like read interviews or talk to who write series specifically, they always say that they either try to write an ending. to each book as if it's going to be the last or they'll do a cliffhanger, like, if they know that there's more. So, like, we always talk about, like, the beginning, you know, like, what what made you have an idea for this book or, like, what was the writing process like? But, like, how does it feel when you finish one of these books? Like, do you know, like, do you have an idea of how many you think you'll have? Or do you know, like, what the end is going to be like? Or do you just

kind of finish it and say like, I'm going to, I'm going to let her, like, breathe for a little bit. Marinate. Yeah. Yeah, she deserves a vacation at this point. My God, she's been through so much over the last few books. Yeah. I know that's a good point. You know, by the time I get to the end of one of these books, I do typically know at least whether I'll have one more book, if not more than that.

So that helps me determine how I want to end it. But there is also just this natural progression as the story goes on and a natural point at which I feel like that that case needs to end. The story needs to wrap up. Honestly, some of it is just word count too. I get to the point where I'm looking at my word count going, okay, they don't want 100,000 or 150,000 page book. At least my publisher doesn't. So I do. I'll take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The next chain of book is going to be a thousand pages long. It would be like a thing novel. Yeah, but I do think about that. And then there is just in terms of pacing and in terms of just like there is kind of a three-act structure to these books, more or less.

I play with that a little bit. But there is a point at which it feels like it's time to wrap up the story. and I do close every case with each story. So if you only read that one book, you do get a satisfying ending. You do know who the killer is and that new investigation that she's been involved with. But there are,

there's this through line with Bram, the serial killer. There's a lot of family themes, especially dysfunctional family themes, and family members behaving badly and all of that stuff. And so that is a theme throughout the book. and throughout the entire series. And so from book to book, I will think about where I want to take that next

and what I haven't explored yet about her family history. And so with this one, it made a lot of sense for me to bring in her niece, again, to raise the stakes, but also the point at which, like you said, where she is in her life, where things could go really well

or really tank. Yeah. Not, right? Like, she's in a, well, I don't think it's really a huge spoiler to say, but she's in a relationship now. she's in a romantic relationship that she really wants to see work out. So imagine that you're living with this partner of yours. And like here comes a 16 year old who has obsessions with horror movies and who creeps

around the house at night taking things that aren't hers and gets in a lot of trouble in town. And that kind of puts a damper on the romance in a new relationship. Yeah. You're going to match a little bit. So with this one, it really was just, it made a lot of sense based on where I ended the fourth book to start here and put her through her paces and give her some new challenges. And that's something too with every, with every book, I think with every book in any series is you want to throw as many obstacles at your protagonist as you possibly can. Right. And then see if they can find their way out of them. Makes it interesting.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And this is definitely, this is definitely an interesting one. throwing some obstacles. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of moving parts in it, which is like something I always enjoy, you know, with your books because, you know, like you said, when you're trying to to tell a story with, you know, returning characters and things like that, you know, you want to keep things fresh and interesting and you definitely do. So I'm, listen, I will take a hundred Shane of Bucks. Like at the end of the day, like, I will read her until she is like 80 years old and like kind of like a murder she wrote. Oh gosh. Imagine she becomes like the Jessica.

Fletcher. I would love it. That would be so much fun. Yeah. I could be on to something. I know. That would be so much fun if she did that. But yeah, I mean, I think that your books are so cinematic and I've like said that word a hundred times tonight. So I always, you know, kind of one. The word of the episode. Yeah. If this was like watch what happens live, it would be like drink every time Gair says cinematic. Yes. But so for these books, would you rather have a television. series for Shana or would you rather have like a series of movies where like each book is like its own movie? Oh yeah. Good question. And I've tried not to think about that too much because it feels like just a pipe dream at this point because there's nothing in the works right now.

But I do think it would work either way. I think it would make a really cool series the way that like the Shetland books have become and Cleef Shetland books. have become a series or like the Robert Galbraith, J.K. Rolling, um, thrillers that are a series. There is a, I sometimes feel like there is a bit of a UK crime fiction vibe to these books. I don't know what it is. It's like a balance. I agree. Right? Like, yeah, it like, I almost thought it was when I started reading them again. I was like, oh yeah, no, this takes place in New York. Like I, it was in my mind when I like started thinking about them again. Well, it might be the, small town thing, right? Because the UK, a lot of the UK crime stories take place in these really small

insular kind of villages with these close-knit communities. And that's a really big part of the series, is her trying to navigate her new village, her new town and figure out what's happening behind closed doors and who she can trust and what history is between the neighbors and all of that, always plays apart from book to book. But yeah, I think, so I would take either is the short answer for sure. But I do think it would be cool as a series that, like a limited series or something like that. And yeah, you could almost do, you could almost do one book and two episodes, I think. Yeah. That would work too. It was also, when you were saying that, it was also making me think like BBC like Broadchurch. I don't know if you ever watched Broad Church. I loved Broadchurch.

But like the pacing and like the, the small town and like everyone like everyone's roots there mattering. Exactly. Or like Mary of East Town. Right. That's another one. I'm just so into those small town, obviously, because this is what I'm focused on. I'm really into those small town mysteries. It's something about having grown up in a small town myself, maybe.

But I think a lot of people like them because it is this. It's the sense of you almost feel claustrophobic or like you could feel potentially quite trapped living in a small town with all of these neighbors around who you maybe don't. don't trust all of them. There's maybe a dark history about some of them that you don't know. And when that stuff starts to come to light, and here you are in a situation where you could see those people every day, feasibly on the street, right? You have to live with these neighbors and friends or frenemies or whatever they are. And so that does create a really tense environment, which is kind of perfect for crime fiction. It is. Yeah. Yeah. I want Shane had to team up with Luther.

Oh, that would be cool. That's an interesting idea. Well, I think that's like, the reason you remind me of like the British crime fiction is because like, whenever I read something by an author who's British, I'm like, no one in this book is safe. And like, there's going to be some like pretty like emotionally dark things that happen. And like, that's how I feel when I read your books. Like they're not, you know, like, they're definitely not a cozy mystery.

like Shana definitely like has gone through the ringer and you know there could be something that happens to her that's bad and like you you kind of don't know what to expect like no one's really safe in these books you know and like nobody's mental health is safe nobody's lives are safe like you just like kind of you know emotionally smack around your reader a little bit and like tie a bow on it and you're like okay take a breathe take a breather until the next one comes but that's what I always like think of when I you know when I read this. is that like I think that's why I'm so addicted to the series is because it reminds me of like Luther. It reminds me of if I were in charge and I were making it with like my imaginary studio. Like I would have I would do like a true detective with each each book being about six or eight episodes. You know, because the thing that I love is like you always have like a big cast too. So you know, you introduce like your your pacing. with introducing characters is so good because I never forget who someone is. You know, it's not like your five pages in and there's 40 people being pushed out of your face, you know?

So, you know, with like a shorter, like six to eight episodes, you can kind of like really take your time like you do in the book with introducing these red herrings, introducing, like, possible next victims and kind of like building that suspense. So that's what you're, yeah, this series has reminded me of like the first season of Trudence. detective. Yeah, which is the best season in my personal life. Oh, yeah. Still, it is. Although the other seasons have been all great. Hopefully this upcoming one maybe is like up to par. If Jody Foster cannot save your TV show like wrap it up like it's done. You know, like if Jory Foster can't do it, then like, sorry about your shut out of luck at this point. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. But this has been so

much fun. Oh, God, you guys. Thank you for having me. This is honestly, I love to watch you online. I love you both. And this is, I could chat with you all night long. So if you ever want to just do a phone call, hit me up. 100%. 100%. I'll like, yeah, I'll go meet you and Clayton and we'll face time Kate. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have to get there somehow. We just got to do it. We'll do it. We'll give you personal. I know. I keep trying to like, I keep telling her like all of like, the good things about this area you know like I'm like every weekend I go get my groceries in Canada

like that's how close I am like I get my groceries in Canada like we can go here and yeah yeah visit Vermont like I get my groceries by boat when I'm there which is also fun like how cool is that you just get in your little motor boat and you shoot across the water

and then I walk through a trailer park and I get to the price chopper and it's like and now my kids are enough that they can do that on their own, which, how fun is that? So that I think like that, like that works its way into the book. Those little fun experiences that I feel like are very specific to that area or maybe don't exist in a lot of different places. I try to work those into because I don't know, I'd be pretty interested, I think, to hear about things like that. And I am when I read books that are really setting forward, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you want to learn something

new about the area that the story is set. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I say to people, too. Like, it just, you know, growing up here, that's been very natural for me for like when I was growing up, my parents would say, like, let's go to Canada. Like, we'll go out to dinner. And like, when I tell people things like that, they're like, what do you mean you just go to Canada for dinner? And I'm like, yeah, like, you just like cross the border and like go out to dinner and then you come home. Like, it's not like, like, they're like, don't you have to like stay for a certain amount of time. We're like, what do you have to do? No, no, no. It's like, back and forth. Yeah, and it's the same thing with, like, you said, like,

getting, getting your groceries by boat. And it's like, every area, you know, in the world has these, like, specific things that, like, only people who have grown up there who've experienced that, like, no. So, you know, it's, like, always, like, fun to play with that. And I love, I love that in your books, too, because I'm like, this is, like, something that you don't really think of being, you know, in this area, but, you know, like, there's going to an island on, like, a jet ski. And I'm like, I wouldn't even know how to drive a jet ski. But like these kids do because of where they, you know, like in Alex Bay. Yeah, right.

Yeah, you learn how to. Yeah, you do that before you learn how to drive a car. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it's so much fun. But I hope everybody has had as much fun as I have tonight. And Devils Up the Door is now out.

So if you haven't started this series, binge them. Have you even been listening to us? Yeah. If you haven't started the series, you have not been listening to me for however many, however many years.

Yeah. Well, I'm so grateful for all the kind words and you guys have recommended them so many times and I just appreciate it so much. Like I said, I just hope all I really have wanted with the series is for people to enjoy it

and have a little sense of escape. And hopefully it will deliver for them. It does. Yeah, it does for me. So I will read, I will read Shana as long as you write her. No, thank you, Gary.

Thank you guys. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Thank you. And we'll have to do it again soon. Yeah, we'll do well. Yeah. On the road in Clayton.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just do a casual podcast in Clayton. That would be fine. Yeah. Yeah, well, the way you're turning the books out too, or you'll be back in no time. Yeah, that's true.

With any luck. Because you are one quick writer. I'll tell you that. Yeah, well, it's necessity some of it, right? But also, you don't want there to be a huge gap in between series if you've been avoided. I think right to just keep people invested in character and keep them, keep everything top of mind for them. But yeah, I enjoy it.

I don't, I wouldn't be doing anything. I don't know what else I would be doing if I wasn't writing crime fiction. and I am not tired of writing Shana by any means. She still is keeping me interested and keeping me entertained. So, yeah, we'll see where this goes. Yeah, well, wherever it goes, we'll be along for the ride. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.

Have a good night. Bye, you too.