Bookwild - The America's Next Top Model Syllabus with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

This week, MacKenzie Green (who auditioned for ANTM) and I talk about the cultural implications of America's Next Top Model documentary Reality Check.  We also share fiction and non-fiction books that relate to the themes of the documentary. Hear us dive into: How pop culture—especially America’s Next Top Model—shaped beauty standards, body image, and the way women learned to critique themselves and each other. A broader conversation about “girl-on-girl” dynamics: internalized patriarchy, reality TV as a mirror of culture, and why shows like RuPaul’s Drag Race offered a more affirming counterpoint. How being a conscious consumer makes all the difference in the media you consume. Books for the ANTM Syllabus Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert Cue The Sun! by Emily Nussbaum The Lilac People by Milo Todd Apprentice in Wonderland by Ramin Setoodeh The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison Model Home by Rivers Solomon Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

I am way too invested in this damn monkey overseas that can't be friends. Yeah. And then he finally made friends. I was still a little hormonal the first time I saw it. And then recently he made friends. And then I just looked. And there was a video of him being other monkeys were being mean to him and they were throwing him around. And I know he's a monkey.

I know this is part of monkey behavior. But I'm like, be nice to punch. Be nice. He's a sweet little baby. Oh. I love the animals of the internet. I do too. I'm also really embarrassed that I like care so deeply about the friend group of a primate. I'm kind of okay with it in the realm that I've decided now when I'm thinking like, oh, I'm really sensitive. I'm just going to just stay grateful that I'm empathetic.

That's the same. I'm like, thank God I feel big feelings all the time and that I've never thought to myself is is empathy a liability. Or manipulative. Good God. Am I a bad person because I care about other people? Right. Right. Or because you think love is love. That was the chapter that really was pushing me over the edge was her talking about how love is love is manipulative. And I'm just like, you've got to be kidding me. It's like, just what a way to live life.

What a way to live life. Wow. Well, who knows where I'll start. Who knows where we'll start. We'll start somewhere. But I am back with McKinsey Green and there is a lot of pop culture stuff happening. So I. As you guys know, we're always here to talk about it.

We are. I think it's fun that I get to give gab with you about pop culture. And we love books. And so invariably, bookness comes in. It does. Because we both had the same thought while watching the top model Netflix docu-series that I was like, oh boy. Yeah. And it just immediately made me think of girl on girl.

Like I was like, we are in it. We are talking about it. We are, yes. Like truly, I cannot. Like, oh, and for people that want like a really great discussion as well about the book, because, you know, Kate is a good person and lets you plug other things. Yes, I do. The Stacks Book Club did Girl on Girl for January Book Club.

And so there is an episode of the Stax with this woman, Christina. I cannot remember her last name. She used to be the co-host with Trevor Noah on his podcast. And it's the two of them in conversation. Also, I think you love her podcast. She just launched her pod and it's called Pop. It's in my, I'm like, I'm going to my podcast. Because there's nothing more fun than watching somebody scroll their phone.

It's called like Pop Cultured. Yeah, and there goes here the thing. Or no, how did this get made? Pop syllabus. That's the podcast. It's so smart. It's the kind of stuff we love to do, which is ultimately looking at pop culture through this very like anthropological academic lens but while I was watching the tyra thing

I was like wow this is the girl on girl book like this is ultimately because I feel like what the book covers which kind of the show is alluding to also is like the idea of how we as women are sometimes tools of the patriarchy correct I'm looking at you Pam Bondi that's one on top of my mind right now truly the first person I thought of where I'm like girl. Yeah. The master's tools will not serve you like divest from it. But I think like that's the interesting thing. It's right. It's like within every community. I feel like more or less we can like identify like, oh no, you are trying to behave for the oppressor. Because it's like when I think about like when black folks talk to each other, we're like, uh oh, tokens get spent. Like yes,

all right. You going in there. And the same thing. Like what girl on girl is is asking us to think of as women is like how do we perpetuate and continue like ultimately this patriarchal agenda so to watch that show yes to watch because i don't think people understand how famous tyra banks is to the modeling world right like i genuinely know enough about the model yeah i don't think people understand that like truly she and naomi campbell are these trailblazers for black models i would say naomi is probably the trailblazer from the like high fashion perspective for a black model. There's a great Apple dock called Supermodel. It is so good.

Also, shout out to Lindy Evangelista, who is a real one. Because like, truly, the original supers were like Naomi Campbell, Lindy Evangelisa, Christy Turlington. Okay. I'm taking such a segue because I have to give them their props. Yeah, I have to give these two women their props because in the dock, they ultimately talk about the racial discriminatory. that Naomi was dealing with as a dark-skinned black woman.

And these two bad asses basically started being like, hey, if you want the two of us, you have to hire her because they all lived together and they all knew each other. Oh, good. And so like they pulled a Marilyn Monroe because people don't know this about Marilyn is that Marilyn Monroe. Oh, this is why I will always be 10 toes down for this woman. Oh, go on.

Marilyn Monroe really did use her privilege. So when it was when she found out that Billy Holiday, like when these Ella Fitzgerald, Billy Holiday, when these black singers were performing, because if anybody's ever watched the Dorothy Dandridge movie with Hallie Berry, highly recommend it, these people, yes, got to perform at these big venues. We as the conventional public know them to be famous, but they still had to go through the back door. Like, they still couldn't sleep in the main hotel rooms. Like there's a scene in the Dorothy Dandridge movie where she's being playful with her agent. She sticks her toe in and kicks a little water. up at him. And she's like, oh my God, there's a pool. And then when she

passes by the pool on her way to perform at the Tropicana Club in Miami, the pool is empty. It's been drained. And there are black staffers in it scrubbing it down because she put her black toe in the water and therefore tainted the water. Anyway,

so that's to give a little background. So Marilyn and Rose's whole thing was she knew the whole world is paying attention to her. So she would intentionally go to these black performer shows and would call the press and basically say,

hey, if you want to see me and Joe DiMaggio, I'm going to be at Ella Fitzgerald's performance. If you want to catch me out, I'll be a Dorothy Dandridge's show. If you want to see me, I'll be a Billy Holidays. Like literally she used like,

and she knew they're going to follow me, they're going to come, they're going to cover the show, they're going to have to sit in the back of the performance and watch the whole thing if they want to come up to me at the end and get this photo. And so like, and so that is the background where like Linda and they pulled the same thing.

That's so cool. Where they were like, if you want us, you want her. Now, obviously she would go on to become the Naomi Campbell. So where Tyra became this real breakout star is that she kind of like took the lock on like the sexy commercial side of modeling. Like she became like the first black Victoria Secrets Angel. She became like the Sears catalog girl. Like she, yes, she had high fashion.

She got to do American designers like, you know, Tommy and all that stuff. But like the thing that made her like the top of Mount Olympus is that she was the first black cover of Sports Illustrated swim. She was the first black Victoria Secrets Angel. Like she was the first in so many things that she really did. And I don't, you know, it's like I joke with you all the time of like black famous versus mainstream famous. Like I don't know if she was. mainstream famous for her whole career, but all I know is I grew up as an elder millennial under the impression that, like, beauty at its peak is Tyra Banks.

Yeah. Like that's what you want to be. You want it like, Tyra was the prototype. So when Top Model happened, it was like appointment viewing. Yeah. Like not just from, because I'm sure every millennial woman is like, I also watch Top model. you're not special.

But like from a, at least from my lived experience, it was so important and so important to the culture that like Tyra Banks has a reality show. Right. I'm sure. Yeah. It was like, because for my brain, it was like, oh, my God, Oprah's on TV. Tyra's on TV. Like, oh, my God.

So that set the stage that I was like, Tyra's gorgeous. Tyra knows everything. Tyra is the law. Yeah. If Tyra says it, you have to do it. Now, the other context I have to give people from my experience of the top model, my mother is a former model. I was like, you like can talk on all of this. Yeah.

My mother is a former couture fit model. So like for people that don't know, like couturiers, altiliers, they have a model who acts as both muse and mannequin. So that's what a couture fit model is. A lot of times people are like, can I find pictures of her on the runway? I'm like, no. Right. And they're like, oh. And my poor mom used to always be like, oh, my modeling career wasn't that special because she never did the runway.

Right. But she lived at the altilliers of the designer she worked for. And it was her duty. And so ultimately, everything during the time she was at this house is modeled around her. Like she said, she's like, you sit with the designer. You talk about your life. You talk about what's going on. Like, you are their muse.

You, like everything about you, you know, the way your hair looks, your body. Yes. everything is modeled around you. At least that's how it was back in like the 70s, 80s. Now, modeling changes. I highly recommend again, the supermodel doc because we also find out from, because it does go,

it pairs well with girl on girl. Yeah. Is that also these opinionated outspoken supermodels are the reason designers were like, I just want a clothes hanger. Yeah. I don't want to have to make clothes anymore. So that's how we get the heroin chic of the 90s.

That's how we get 13 year old Easter. European girls because who has an opinion about the racial discrimination of their fellow models. Definitely not a 14 year old girl that barely speaks English. She's just happy to be here and get paid. Wow. Yeah. It's like so fascinating. But I knew from my mom like also what modeling is.

So as you can imagine, a show with the woman I want to be like in the industry I always admired and wanted to be in. I said, yes, please. Sign me up. Sign me up. And I loved every second of those 24 seasons. I loved every second of them. I watched it when she got fired off the show and it went to be a 20. Like I watched. I cannot think of a season of top model I have not seen.

Yeah. So to watch that documentary. Right. It was like revisiting a house you thought was the most beautiful home ever, only to realize like, oh, this was a house of horrors. Because to watch that doc and be, because I remembered where I was when Shandy was crying in the corner and her boyfriend was yelling at her about cheating on him. Or I remember thinking when they were telling Ebony,

your skin's too rough being like, Mommy, how do I fix my skin being rough? And her being like, oh, like you can put lotion on. And then three episodes later, her being told by her castmates, can you stop putting on so much lotion? It's making the doorknoms greasy. I mean, truly. And it's like, and so then I started

becoming hypervigilant of like, okay, I want to be moisturized, but I don't want the other girls in my class to know. But like all these things, or I remember Kelly. Like, I recently said to my therapist, I was talking about my appearance and I said, oh, I have, I, I feel like

I have the snout of a platypus. And she said, this is also why it's funny having a black lady therapist because she said, no, no, we're not doing that top model stuff here. And I said, Not you knowing exactly where I heard that from and when. Because it was. It was a critique that was given to a black woman.

Well, it was a critique given to a black woman on top model. And I vividly can remember her sitting in the mansion that they had them staying in, sitting in the mirror in the hot tub because they had like a hot tub bathtub. Yeah. And I just remember her sitting in this mirror in this mirrored bathroom, staring herself in the mirror and just going, I have a mouth like a platypus. Look how much my mouth projects out.

And I was like, and I remember, and I was saying to my boyfriend who watched the show the doc with me. Yeah. He had never seen an episode of Top Model. He knew nothing about it. He was horrified the entire documentary. He was so confused. He was like, what? Yeah.

He was like, what do you mean? Like when the girl who they were like, well, they didn't air this. I'm like, yes, they did. And that was the thing too. He kept saying to me like the whole thing with the girl that they kept calling fat. And I kept trying to say to him, you have to understand. I thought Kelly and the girl they told looked like a platypus. I thought they were beautiful.

when the show started. I was like, wow, they're so beautiful. And I said, and then to watch them be called fat and my takeaway, I remember saying to my mom, if I ever got on top model, I would never gain weight on that show. I would eat as little as I, like, I would maintain my body. I just need people to understand. I even auditioned for top model. You can truly speak on all of this.

I can truly speak to the experience. Yes. Made it all the way through. I was, this was actually the year before I ended up deciding to do the pageant. I was, I'd finished my freshman year. The auditions were coming to town. And I literally, we didn't know if I was going to be moving out on my own or living on campus.

And so I did the auditions, like right after my last final freshman year. My mom came to town. I went to the convention center in Miami because this had to have been 2006. So this is back when like. that scene in the dock where they're showing like the lines around the block that was that era like top model was big it was important like and i remember i had spent my entire high school at like my adolescence saying to my dermatologist i just got to get my skin clear i can't audition for top model if i have zits or if i have dark marks from my zits and all this stuff that audition was the craziest thing ever it gave me though one of the greatest highs i'm still riding to the

this day, which was a man yelled at me, ain't that the bitch that makes the baby fat jeans when I was headed into the callback room. And I just need people to understand, I love Kamor Ali Simmons with everything in my body. I think we may have talked about it. Yeah. So being, so having this man be like, ain't that hurt? I was like, oh my God. And on top of it, Camara had been a judge. And it happened right when the door opened when I was going in for the final interviews. So in my head, I was like, oh, my God. I'm killing this. Yeah. I was like, they're going to be like, oh, my God, she does look like Camorra, who's also Tyra's best friend. Oh, didn't know that. So I was like, wow, I'm a shoe in. I'm a shoe in.

I didn't get cast that season. They did cast an actual Asian woman who everybody said look like Camorra. And I was like, wow, wow. Okay. So it could have been me. Just Asian. Yeah. Let me tell you what. Like God, man's rejection of God's protection of God's protection. because watching that docu-series, I said, oh. You're like, I avoided something bad again. I said, wow. So I could have actually put myself in not only pageantry, but also this hellscape. Right.

Oh, Lord. I'm like, I wouldn't have made it out alive from the early two-fills. No. Well, and to your point about your therapist, before I forget, like knowing the platyposed reference, too, this is also why pop culture matters more than people think it does. Like, there's stuff to be learned and, like, seen. but also then like the negative stuff can stick in your head in such a big way because but I think it's it's the right it's like the things we don't think about the insidious nature of

pop culture we consume like I even think about what are going to be the implications years from now I mean and you know this I mean this is what book wall is built off of like the prevalence of murdered women being like a genre of book that people love like you know this and I say this every time I read it Lisa Jewell book. Mm-hmm. They make me so sad. Oh, yeah. Because somebody is going to die before this book is over.

Yeah. And it's someone that dies that when I finish the book, I'm like, well, how the hell is the family supposed to go on now? I know. Or I'm like, the dad is dead. These little kids don't have a father. Yes. He got murdered by the crazy lady.

What? This is why I've been, sometimes I send her disclaimers. I'm like, this is a tragedy, though. This is a tragedy just so you know. Truly. Like, I have to get, because like I think, but I think about that a lot of times of like, are the same way we're now watching top model docs and being like, oh, my God. Like, you couldn't tell me at the time that the race swapping thing wasn't revolutionary.

Like when I was trying to explain to my boyfriend, the moment when they show it happened a second time, he goes, they did it again. And I said, but honey, you have to understand. Barack wins the presidency. He becomes the most famous biracial man in the world. And Tyra and Ken Monk decide what's the best way we can honor

Barack Obama? We're going to make all these girls into biracial people. Oh my God. Was that like, was that kind of publicly discussed? Or is that like your inference? No, that was like how they posed it. So they did it the first time and it was already

inappropriate. Right. But then when they did it the second time, Because in the doc, Tyra's like, we learned our lesson. We know better. And then I love that the doc organizers are like, hot, surprise, eight seasons later, they do it again. I love that cut. I love that cut. But it was like, I remember that episode.

And Tyra's whole selling of it was Barack Obama's biracial and he's the president. And biracial people are beautiful. So we're going to make you biracial. You're half Korean and black. You are half Polish and Irish. And it was like, Tyra, what are we doing? No, no, no, no, no. We've gone too far from the spectacle.

But it's like when I think about it, I'm like, am I going to one day be sitting with my kids? Yeah. And there will be docu series about like all of these, you know, and then she was gone. Yes. Looking out the window. Murder and cabin 12. Murder and cabin 10. I know.

She went missing. And are they going to look at me and be like, the housemaid, are they going to be like, mom, this is crazy that you, that like, y'all just read books about like, women killing or being killed? I have to read you a passage. Please. So I just started someone, well, actually I saw it in a like black author's black history post.

Yeah. I was really happy. But then I also saw some people compared it to who we used to live here, which is my, I do think that's actually probably my favorite fiction book of all time. I think I have to admit that I do have one favorite. Listen, you know I have, listen, you know we've talked about this. I have a problematic fave author. Uh-huh.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We all know this. Yeah. I have discussed it with you, Sebo Campbell. I've had to do it off air. I will never discuss it with you, the audience. Because I really do love this man.

Yes. Yes. And the way I'm just like, ah, it's my, it's the same way with I will out her. Tracy from the Sags loves Gone with the Wind. Oh. And I love to tease her about it because it's like, she's like, everybody gets a problematic fate. And I'm like, but Tracy, it's so funny for all of your, that's the thing. I'm like, for all of your awareness and like all that you do to like celebrate black authors,

black shirt. I'm like, I love that you love Gone with the Wind. Aaron Crosby, F. Nguer, who wrote Junie, if anyone wants to, she talks about it in my episode. The opening of The Great Man is Kyra Davis-Lurie. Her grandma loved the book. And she, like, really enjoys it. Yeah. The same thing. Kyra Davis-Lory starts The Great Man with that, that beautiful essay on, like, one of my favorite books is The Great Gatsby. One of my favorite authors is F. Scott Fitzgerald. He did not like black people. Yes. And I have to come to terms with the best. fact that like this person I loved would not have loved me back. I think it might be one of mine where I'm like yeah, I know there he wasn't the best with the way he would talk about. If you said vanilla ice, then I'd be a little like yeah. There's still more redeeming parts of him. Yeah,

I'm like a little better but there are still times when I'm like oh he really did just say the F word. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, but this book I'm reading called model home by River Solomon, which I cannot believe I had not heard. I don't know if it's there or her writing. I don't know which one. Same. Yeah. Likewise. It's always fun with authors. You're like, I like the book. Enough discourse to have like caught a pro down.

Yeah. I'm always like, the author. Yes. Author says. Yes. So this author has multiple books. So I will probably go read other ones. But this is the most poetic prose I've ever read about true crime. Um, so, and it's a little bit long. So buckle up everyone. But after midnight when Elijah still can't sleep, I watch TV with her in bed, true crime, something grisly about a dead teenager or several. We both find solace in the inevitability of broken girls, something to count on. My youngest sister, Emmanuel, asked how my daughter and I can stomach such ugliness. I tell her we watch the sensationalized breakdowns of people's lives in the same spirit. We do puzzles. By the end, we hope to piece of, it altogether. We cling to the promise inherent in the genre's title that we will find something

true here. Not that any of these series ever deliver. This isn't because they lack in true things to say, but because we already know the true things they have to say. What we're actually hoping for is a different truth, a different answer to the question, why did he do it, how did the wife not know, why did the mother allow this, why weren't they watching more closely, how in such a crowded cafe Did no one see? Did no one stop this untethering of blood from body? The answer to all these questions, of course, is that human beings are not very good. I say this not misanthropically, but with the realization that we, through apparent dominance over other animals, have crowned ourselves kings when in reality we are all ill-equipped to handle the basic demands of life on the scale. We're forest creatures who've wandered into the man-made road, eyes frozen wide. bars. Is that not the most beautiful spas?

Bars. Of it. Wow. We are hoping for a different outcome. Yes. Or even to understand. Or to understand. You are so right.

It really is. I really understand that. But I think when I think about it's writing it for the record. But that's what I'm saying. It's like when I think about the top model doc, I think about Q the Sun. I think about Apprentice in Wonderland. Like to your point. Yeah.

We laugh and poo poo pop culture. This also ties to, this is really, again, another pop culture episode. We like broken girls even when it's not true crime. Or it's just like, yeah, it's like we do. And I think about, I cannot remember the name of the book. Not in then she was gone, but it's got like a red corset on the cover and it's got like a green ribbon wrapped around it. It's an anthology of stories about what we like about like, to your point, broken girls. Yeah.

And it's like, and it's so fascinating to me. When I think about it, I think honestly, that's kind of the. what people loved about top model. If I'm being honest, it's like you got to watch beautiful, stunning women, be plucked from obscurity. Yeah.

And then, I mean, but this is also the American dream because it could cue the sun talks about this. It's like, it's the idea that perpetuated the American dream. Most of the reality shows we love perpetuate this like, and they talked about it on this podcast,

where they were like, it is what we hope the American dream is. Just like how true crime is we hope to make sense of the, and I think the reason women like it to that line, we hope to make sense of the cruelty of men. Yeah. We hope that there's something in this book or in this true crime show or in something that will help us identify. Like, why do men, do, how did, yeah, why did a husband who took vows that he loved this woman? Right.

wake up one day and decide I'm going to kill her. Yeah. And it's the same way when I think about what they were posing with top model is like, it perpetuates the American dream that you can be a waitress at a Denny's in the middle of nowhere. And if you just work hard, show up every day to work, do what you got to do, keep putting in that effort. One day, somebody's going to walk in that Denny's and be like you and they're going to make you a millionaire. And they're going to make you rich and famous.

And it'll come to you in a second. Yeah. And it's like when I think about Q the Sun and what they're saying, like, at the end of the day, we're trying to make sense of because that one thing they talk about the first reality show that followed that family. Yes. It's like it's parents trying to understand like, how do I make sure nothing happens to my kid? Yeah.

It's like it's why 16 and pregnant exists. It's like, yes, it perpetuates. I mean, that's a whole separate thing where I think it's part of, you know, The way you're white nationalist matters too. I think it's also part of the white nationalist agenda to be like, have babies young, have lots of them, please. But also. Don't abort them. Exactly.

But also it's like, if I think about myself at that age, it's like, I kind of watched 16 and pregnant to be like, how do I make sure I don't do that? Right. I'm being told that is the worst thing ever. So maybe if I watch this show, I can avoid it. I can reverse engineer what they did wrong. Yes. Yeah. It makes you feel prepared.

sometimes. Yeah. It makes you feel it makes you feel like you can walk through it. It's the same thing. Like I'm, you know, again, I have a partner now who never watched Real Housewives, who does not care about the bad girls club, any of that. Right. And I was trying to explain the bad girls club to him and baddies. And then I was like, you know what? I should just read you this book called what happened to Ruthie Ramirez. And I was like, because that's a way better like fictionalization of somebody that would end up on the bad girls club. Yeah. So. So. that you can better understand. Yeah. But like that's the thing is like I, whether we like it or not, pop culture is such a mirror of where we are in space and time. And it's like, even when the edit isn't real, there, the reason the edit was edited that way is a mirror. It's because it really was real. And there really was something they wanted to do with that. And it's like, and that's kind of what girl on girl ask you is like, hey, what has been your complicity in this? Like, how have you helped to create the woman on woman violence, the girl on girl of violence that has kind of thrown us into this turmoil for lack of a better, you know, example?

And I think that's what's kind of funny is to watch that doc and to watch like the machinations people are going through of like, well, I wasn't part of this. Oh, I know. And I'm like. Production. Yeah. Or even just watching the audience be like, Tara, you can't put this. on me and I'm like, okay, but guys, here's the thing.

We carried that shit with us. It was popular. And not just popular, but I think about, like, I think about my senior year of high school. I remember doing my prom photos. I was already uncomfortable. I already thought I was very ugly. And I remember handing them to, I went to a Catholic school. Remember handing them to our religious counselor, who was also our, like, kind of home room

teacher. And I remember she said to me, you should have tried small. Oh my God. Now, in hindsight, as a culture, the smarter answer would have been, you look beautiful. Did you have a good night that night? Yeah. Let's move on from a 17-year-old picking her appearance apart from photos that were taken by the high school football coach.

McKenzie, it was never you. That man don't know nothing about photography. Oh, my God. The way some people don't know you do photograph black. people in black skin differently. Also, it's like, this man ain't no photographer. Yeah, framing isn't going to matter. Once I became a model and I realized a good photographer is like, do this with your arm.

So I don't know why I'm taking myself apart that the school couldn't. I'm like instead of the teacher going, oh, sweetheart, the school couldn't pay for a photographer and coach so and so. Right. Said he could do it. So sweetheart, you look lovely. The dress is beautiful. Did you have a good night?

But instead it was like, everybody thought they were a model. Right. Because of top model, everybody thought they had an opinion about appearance and aesthetics and looks. Yes. And that it was fun to like. And then it was fun. I mean, I still think about watching them get Brazilian waxes. Now, keep in mind, I was a swimmer at this time.

Oh, yeah. And it was what it was was happened below the waist. My attitude was at that, I would, because it really was this shift. Like pre top model, post top model. Mm. And pre-top model, I'm sure my coaches were like, she's got to get this situation under control. I mean, I remember once one of our female coaches was like, shaving is an option, girls. And I was like, not if you're going so fast, nobody can see.

Yes. If I had, I was like, if I just win and get out of the pool faster, no one can see. Post-top model, that was the first time I had been informed I wasn't supposed to have hair on my body. I know. So I'm looking at hard for me because sometimes from a sensory perspective. Oh yeah. I prefer it that way. But when I think about it, they wanted to.

I cannot imagine when I think about my mom's perspective, what it must have felt like to have like your 11, 12 year old say. Right. Can I get waxed before the next swim meet? Wow. Yeah. And you're not realizing where she's getting. Like, yeah, my mom's watching the show with me. but she's also watching it as a model being like,

oh, this is a funny little dramatization. She's not even... She's not even... She's not even... I need to prepare you for what it's going to be like. Yeah. But that was the funny part is now in hindsight, my mom will say,

I thought you knew that wasn't really how it worked. That that was a TV version. She was so camp to her. Yeah, like she was like, it's so absurd. Yeah. She has to know this. I mean, my mom was having the equivalent of what I have when she sends me AI videos.

And I'm like, mommy. He's not real. Mommy. Let's, okay. Do you really think this is, like, sometimes she'll send me. And for months, it never occurred to me to be like, oh, my God, she thinks this is real. She's not sending me like, ha, ha, ha, let's laugh at AI slop together. She's like, she's like, is this real?

And I'm like, oh, and that's the same thing with that show. It was AI slop to her. She was like, oh, she has to know that, yeah, they shoot swimsuit campaigns in the winter, but they don't shoot it on freezing cold rooftops on the East Coast. Right. They'll shoot a swimsuit campaign in St. Lucia in the winter. Yes. They'll shoot a swimwear campaign in Brazil in the winter.

They'll go to South Africa to shoot a summertime campaign. Not give them hypothermia. But they're not going to Michigan and going, it's snow on the ground. We got to shoot these swimsuits. Get on out there, babe. like she was like my daughter knows this and so like yeah i just watching that whole documentary it was so mind-blowing to revisit it and also have to come to terms with like what girl and girl says which is like tyra not only did you help promote the kind of like patriarchal agenda yeah but you also engaged in so

much massagin noir that's yeah i'm like that needs it so own episode. I know. And like when it was Ebony, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because she was like when she was like when she pulled me to the side. I thought like, oh, this is another black woman. She's going to like understand and like, be like, hey, I'll help you this way. No. No. Or watching somebody like Danny be like, I was told I shouldn't have a gap in my teeth. And then she was like, and then a few seasons later. And what's the difference? She would give someone a gap. A white girl. Yeah. And it's, and it is that thing where you're like, oh, my, Tyra. Mm-hmm. Tyra. No. This is girl-on-girl violence at its peak.

Mm-hmm. And it was, it's just so fascinating to me. It's the, I felt the same way watching that documentary I did when I read Apprentice and Wonderland. Yeah, it was running me in that book as well. Yeah. Where you, you are like, oh, you did watch this show. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. The people in the show were bad. But then when you really look and you realize all the shit it laid way for, it's like, oh, my God. Even that moment when, what's her face, Whitney was like, oh, it was the size six and they kept calling me plus size. It immediately brought me back to being at Miss USA and having people call me the plus size contestant. And I wore a four at that time in my life. Wow.

That is tiny, especially for tall. Right. And you're tall, right? Literally five foot 10. Okay. Yeah. Wearing like a four. If I was really eaten, it was a six. It was like, oh boy. And I remember. And I, and to the point of like the, you know, the girl and girl violence of it all. Like, I remember. Yeah. Going to get my swimsuit. And this is like, this is again, such a vivid thing. You, day one, you shoot your composites. Okay. So they have your opening number dress. they have your swimsuit. And so before anything happens, you are immediately thrown into a photo, you're thrown into

photo shoots and clothes you didn't pick. And makeup artists you've never met. Principal photography type of stuff. Yeah. It's terrifying. And a photography you've never talked. Like, you're not even warmed up. All you've done is you marked your initial on the check-in sheet that you are, in fact,

there. You rode an escalator upstairs, and it's go time. Yeah. And I still remember the costumer. when I was trying on my swimsuits, when I came out in a large size top, I'm really about to out myself on the internet. And I feel like I'm going to get a purvey comment for this. I have double D boots. I have big boobs.

I have very large boobies. I even had to get a breast reduction in high school. Wow. They were so large. Yes. I remember going to check in. And now, again, you have to keep in mind. I think Tyra Banks is the most beautiful first.

So at this stage of my life, I am 5'10, same height as Tyra. I'm basically Sherr Horowitz, talking about how my goal going to Miss USA was to look like Tyra. Yeah. I'm four, 5'10 like Tyra. I have double-deed boobs like Tyra. I'm like, I got big boobs, small body. Yeah. I remember the costume when I came out in the large top, it was not big enough for my boobie.

Right. And he said, oh, great, now I'm going to have to get an extra large top for you. Now here's the kicker. other girls also had big boobs but they were fake so they and so they the sizing is different as well the sizing was different because they sat up higher on their own they didn't need the support of the tops and i remember even saying to the costumer because this is what killed me we had the choice of slim suits that had an underwire or triangle tops yep as somebody with boobies yeah i was like going into it i was like i got to get the underwire one yeah and i remember

remember the guy was like, no. And to the point of like the top model of it all, how it's like, why would you cast Danny if you know the industry doesn't like gaps? If you were then going to it's like, okay, so you just brought her here to slightly humiliate her, tell her to close her gap. And then like, what,

show other girls that have gaps in their teeth. Like, look, Danny closed her gap and she won the show. Which is what happened. She ultimately got rewarded for modifying her appearance. And I remember similar to the Danny thing where I was like, well if you just gave me an underwire it would one look less lewd and we wouldn't need to order a larger size because that was the kicker is the fact that he was like we're going to have to order a larger size in order for you to look right we're going to have to and i was like oh okay well then i'll i'll wait for the and he was like no no we take the photos though today so we're going to take a picture of you in this ill-fitting top oh my god and i've already come then i go from that moment now i'm over at the open

number dress and the person's like oh now they're all sample sizes so she's like the four is way too small oh my god we're going to have to get a six for you not a six and i'm like and again because i come from a family of bigger girls all this stuff like athletic women i'm like oh my god a girl i'm so tiny and they're like that's not something to be proud of And I'm like, oh. So then they're like, okay, well, we're going to, we're going to take your picture in what we can do. Please put on a strapless bra so we can chip clip this dress to your back with like six clips. Oh, my God.

And you do it in front of all the other contestants. Oh, I'm sure. So other people are hearing like. So other people are hearing. And you're 20, in my case, you're, you just turned 20. It is so young. You don't. Or not even that.

you're 19 turning 20 in like three months. Yeah. So you're in a ballroom having somebody yell out, we're going to have to order a bigger top. Oh, my God. So when I'm watching the top model thing and they're telling Whitney, well, you're so big, we don't have any clothes here that fit you. Like I remember that.

I remember people saying like, well, how are you going to get a Giovanni, which I'm like, Housewives of New York. How are you going to get a Giovanni? if you can't fit the samples. You know, you're on this, it's just, it's so fascinating. And to that thing of the promise I made myself, if I were going to talk about it, I'd never eat. I get to Vegas, they're taking us to the best restaurants in the world that they have in

that city. None of us are eating. Everybody's terrified of gaining weight and not being able to fit into their stuff. Right. So every single person, we're at Michelin-Stard sushi restaurant. Everybody's eating half a piece of sashimi. This is good. I'm happy. I'm full.

And so it's like I just that, but again to the girl on girl violence, it did not matter how much I was like, screw what other people are saying outside of here. You know, it should come as to the pride in the own body. I was trying to lead the revolution. I'm like, screw what's happening outside of here. Let's just be. Yeah. And the fact that it was like, we can't. And people are holding each other accountable, selling stories about each other to blogs.

I had an entire message board at one point dedicated to She's a Man in a Whig. Entire message boards dedicated to breaking down if I was a man. Not to be confused with the message board called McKenzie Green. Dot, dot, dot, worst winner ever. Also not to be confused with the message board, McKenzie Green, fattest Miss USA contestant. Oh, my God.

Not to be confused with the sports betting that was taken out on us. To then watch. Even then. To then watch the comments on the sports betting page say, I don't even, oh, she's the biggest odds. You'll really make your bank on her. Look how big she is. Yeah.

If she wins, I really make my money back. Well, and not taking away from the pain for you, the fact that like trans sniffing or what, I can't remember. What's the, that's what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, it's also when I. Because it's making an assumption that, like, a trans person is gross too.

But that's what I'm trying. But that was another thing that happened on top model. Iris or ISIS. That was her name. ISIS becomes the first trans contestant. Right. What I remember distinctly about ISIS's season. What was the first photo shoot they did? Put them all in bikinis. After ISIS has just

said in the audition, no, I haven't gone through bottom surgery. You know, I don't have the money for it. If I win this, I can. And what do they am immediately do, throw her in a swimsuit. Oh, my God. And then you've got you side of the photographer talking about it looks really bulky down below.

You need to learn how to tuck better. You don't look good. Why are you hiding yourself like that? Why do you think? Same thing. When Ebony is like, oh, I said I was a lesbian. Right. That's what the entire show became.

And it's like, and I think more than anything, if people are like for myself, it's like, if I were to organize my thoughts, it's like the real issue on the table is like, we need to pay better attention to pop culture. Yes. Because it really has a chokehold on how we operate. Totally. Whether we realize it or not. Even like when I think of that I was making to think of like receipts, timelines, like the way that that gets repeated over and it's great. It's a great thing to use when you're like catching someone in a lie. But like, yes, Of course, it sticks with us longer. It's kind of like songs.

Like, yeah. Music makes ideas stick in your head longer. I also think these like big zeitgeist moments are going to make it stick in your head longer, too. Well, I always think about, too, watching the top model doc is that it feels like RuPaul's drag race was almost the antithesis to it. I saw someone saying you guys forget that RuPaul's drag race was satire. And I was like, oh. Same thing. Flavor of Love was meant to be satire of.

of reality dating. Yeah. Yeah. This had to be explained in my house because, again, the boyfriend saw me watching a Tiffany. Well, he, we were watching the Housewives of the Tomic for you and. Yep. And that moment, he did not, he doesn't watch the whole season. Like, he'll come in and out of the room when I'm watching it.

And so at the reunion, they were like, do you want to explain what you meant when you said Stacey had butthole lips and look like Forrest Whitaker about the eyes? And this man goes, oh my God, that is the most devastating insult I've ever heard. He was like, that is a poetic level insult to someone. So then I said to him, oh, if you think that's poetic, let me introduce you to Tiffany Pollard, giving the Gemma shoe monologue to which then led to who's Tiffany Pollard? And I'm like, babe, buckle up. Let me tell you a story about the greatest piece of satire ever. made that nobody knew was satire.

Right. But like to the Rupal's drag race of it when we talk about pop culture. Yeah. We talk about girl on girl. I wish the author had even gotten into, at least for me, Rupol's drag race became a very validating place as a woman. Yeah. I know people have beef with trans women and they love to act like they're trying to take

away from women. For me, being a self-conscious young woman who's coming off of what felt like the entire internet. Like I still can't even watch the video of myself on stage. It's all there. On YouTube, because the first comment is she looks like a man in a wig. Before my grandmother died, I didn't even show her the YouTube video. Like, thank God she was in the room to see it. Yeah. But she used to love watching videos of me during that time. And that I could never show them to her. Yeah. You don't want to see that. But for me, RuPaul's drag race to this idea of girl and girl and what pop culture does to women,

I loved it because I'm watching Latrice Royale. I'm watching fat, fat men, tall men, skinny men, short men. I'm watching Latrice Royale, a fat black man with a deep booming voice. Put on a corset. Now again, you all have to remember, this is two. thousands. Yeah. We've got heroin chic, the skinnier the better, low-rise jeans.

Now you've got to have a ripped body. Show off your hip, like don't have hip dips. Don't let your thighs touch. Oh my gosh, I know. Lose all the weight, but don't have hip dips. Lose all the weight, but also have a body, but don't lose your boobs or your butt. Lose all the weight. But to watch these queens have such reverence for being a woman in a way that I was like, Say what now?

I want, again, Lucrez Royale got to be pushing 300. Yeah. Easy. And to watch Latrice get in a corset, still big in this corset,

but be like in her confessional as she's walking around by being like, yes, get into this body. Get into these tities. I said, what? Yeah. Wait. And she was like, I am feeling my full fish.

I am gorgeous. And I was like, wait. way. Same thing I had with trans women. Where I was like, you have such respect and love for being a woman and truly feel that in your body so much. And I don't mean the fishy queens. I don't mean the bitches you can't clock.

I'm talking about the clocky brick ones. I'm talking about the Harper and Will documentary on Netflix where you're like, I'm talking about the ones that were public. love to use, aka a man and a wig. Yes. You know, the people who are a couple months into estrogen, and they still got the square jaw and a gorgeous, and to watch those kind of brick-looking girls. Yeah. Love being a woman. Yeah. To watch Trixie Mattel and her clown makeup, because here I am as a teen, adolescent young adult, still not able to figure out my makeup. Yeah. But

Trixie feels like the most beautiful bitch in the world. And she's got giant black eyeliner. Yes. And it's talking about herself like she is the most stunning woman. It really made me go, oh. Yeah. What a gift. And the way that you can embody femininity.

Yes. With what your body always looks like. Or this idea that femininity is afforded to anyone. Like for me, it was seeing these. drag queens out of drag that had strong bodies and handsome faces. And then, like you said, watching them have so much ritual and just like love being a woman so much. And they revere it to a point that they're telling each other like, oh, so you don't care about drag. So you're not showing off your body.

And I'm thinking, as I'm watching these people, I'm like, but you've got to. you've got an apron belly right and you're wearing such a tight dress yeah that's what i'm still stressed about because that has not gone away from me yet it's the last thing and i'm obsessed and that's what i'm saying i'm like but it's like i think that part too when i think about like when i think about reading the lilac people and seeing and those and all those passages where the characters are talking about like well no this isn't what makes you a man this is what makes you a man but unfortunately we have to do this performance for other people. It's like just all the implications that pop culture has, and especially in this case,

the top model had on an entire generation. Right. When like top models off the air, drag race is still on. And we are still discovering new ways of gender expression of expressing femininity through these queens. I know. I bought the drag. drag queen special.

I keep, that just keeps reminding me. This is her, her look for her special. Gorgeous. So gorgeous. Cool and vibrant. Insane.

Or when I'm watching and the boyfriend is like, oh, Monet looks great. Yeah. And I'm like, or this is, speaking of top model and beauty standards, I've been rewatching True Blood with my partner.

Oh, yeah. And to, again, the insidious nature of how content works, also for people I want to know, this ladders to what we're talking about. True Blood was a book series. Shut your face. Everything leads back to books.

Yes. I didn't know that either. You out there judging me. Yeah. So we turn it on. Uh-huh. I love the show. Yes.

I thought Suki Sack's house was so innocent and beautiful and virginal and she's who I aspire to be. And I want to be like Suki. All this stuff. I was like, oh, my God. I always thought Tara was ugly. Yeah. And also the show as we're re-watching it. The show also needs.

needs you to believe that Tara is undesirable. Yeah. And Tara, for people that haven't watched the show, Tara is Suckey's best friend who is a black woman played by Routina Wesley. Yeah. Yes. You're looking at a picture. I know.

I mean she's stunning. I remember her now. Yes. So show starts. Immediately, part of what the show also wanted you to think about is the fact that Tara, who we're supposed to believe is unattractive. That is not the desirable one. Has a crush on Suki's brother.

Jason and she is not Jason's type. Now again, you guys have to remember, we are millennials of a certain age. We literally had a whole genre of movies that were about like, hey, girl, change your appearance and he might fall in love with you. Oh my gosh. Yes. So even at that stage of my life, I'm like, okay, Tara, you're so in love with Jason, fix your appearance. So in this one particular scene, you have Tara, dark skin black woman, braids.

She's portrayed as very loud. Very muscularly is what I'm noticing. Yes, very muscular, strong arms, all this stuff. Tara's on screen. And also they had Tara be very loud, very outspoken. So everything about Tara to me was what is unattractive. Uh-huh. So in this scene, my boyfriend looks up.

He was reading one of his books. He looks up because he was like, ooh, I love this show. He looks up. Jason Stackhouse is talking to a beautiful, thin, conventionally attractive, white brunette. waitress and Tara is in the background watching the scene and we are supposed to interpret that as like this is what Jason wants Tara's opining in the back. The way it made my brain rewire when he looked up from his book and went, why wouldn't he want the hot girl?

And I said and then I said to him, yeah, I always wanted one of those Merlot's waitress shirts too. He said, no, not her. The friend, Tara, she's hot. And I'm like, now mind you, I've watched so much TV with this man. I mean, I've watched the hunting wives. And for people that don't know, there's boobies

for days in the hunted wives. Lots of it. So I'm like, it was supposed to be on cars. That's the vibe. And we had already seen boobies at the start of Trublo. So I'm waiting. So when he said, God, she is hot. I'm like, first of all, rude. Second of all, this is the first time I've ever heard watch a show with you and heard you say,

somebody's hot. So then end of the season, again, it is reaffirming to us how unattractive terror is because she shows up in her shitty homecoming dress with bad blue eye shadow on and a side pony. And I then am like thinking as I know we're heading towards the scene. I go, okay, good. We're going to get to this scene. And now he'll get to see what I see. Because weirdly now, I'm trying to prove to him. You're like, no.

No, no, no, you don't understand what I see. Yeah. No, no. You have to, here's the thing. She's, she is unattractive in some scenes. Right. We all get to that scene. Beautiful people don't look beautiful all the time. Truly. So we get to that scene. And I'm like, so see, this is when she looks like a hot mess, right? And he's like, I, babe, I'm not seeing what you're talking about. And I'm like, well, look at her. She looks ridiculous in this red dress. He was like, her legs look great.

I'm like, no, but like, her stomach's not flat. And he was like, I, I, I, didn't notice that babe what are you talking about and i'm like okay but look at her bad eye shadow he's like what he was like i just got her she just her skin glows i'm like yeah but she's got bad pastel blue eye shadow on he's like i didn't notice that and i'm like okay but look at her really stupid like it's just it's wild yes experiencing culture that impacted us like i don't know if you had the same feeling but like reading girl on girl was like watching the top model documentary like reading Apprentice in Wonderland where all of a sudden you are zoomed out. Yeah.

And you are looking at 10,000 feet at the landscape to which you thought things were normal. Yes. The per like you said, receipts, proof timeline, prostitution, whore, all of it. You're looking at a high level of the content you consume. Yeah. And you're like, oh, no wonder I'm a little fucked up. Yeah. Uh-oh.

y'all i just found the red dress and her legs do you look fantastic i'm not even noticing her hair yeah meanwhile i was like it's cheap and it's fandex and it's so ugly and he's like babe i don't see none of that what are you talking about i'm like well look her stomach's not flat he's like baby i'm just focused on them strong he was like i'm just looking at her eyes are looking at the leg you know and then he said some explicit stuff that i was like okay we get it but like you're with the guy But like that's the thing. It's like I don't think, I think watching the top model doc, and maybe you can speak to this from like a C PTSD perspective. I don't think people realize the trauma they have ingested.

And I would be curious to know if like the first step in kind of telling somebody they were a victim is like a level of anger at you for pointing it out. I, okay. So interestingly, there's this. author who reached out to me about a book called The Cost of Healing and Silence, which is basically a lot about how even our like therapy system doesn't necessarily know how to recommend racial, or not recommend. What is the word I'm looking for? Like help through. Oh, account for. Yeah, like account and help us work through like racial issues. And it doesn't acknowledge it very often. Yeah. And she just, she just posted something, the Harriet Tubman quote that's like, I could have saved more

slaves if more of them knew they were slaves. Yes. And she kind of talked about how that's what's really important to her in this video I saw yesterday where she's like some people don't want to hear that they're still being oppressed in modern day times. And they're like, no, no. Yeah, they think and I think even today it's like you're watching almost this like reverse backlash. Yeah. Where it's like initially there was the think pieces that were like, we were a victim. of Tyra and now you're seeing these people that are like I wasn't a victim I thought the show was great I enjoyed it and it's like hey hey hey hey hey hey hey it's okay like I almost feel like there's um yeah with that kind of like insidious nature it's almost this like people are fighting to be like

I'm not impacted by the media I consume don't let me in with the rest of you idiots that like based your beauty standards like a moral failing yeah it's like a moral failing that I mean it's it's the same thing I mean how many episodes of Housewives would be watched where people freak the fuck out when somebody else is like, I get it. I triggered you. And they're like, I'm not triggered. Like, whoa. You're killing.

Because like that in itself, I'm like, oh, what you're mad about is you feel like this woman is saying she has power over you. And it's like, you could just say, yeah, I was true. This is only because I've had this conversation with my family recently where I'm like, you guys know you're allowed to say this triggered me. And that doesn't mean that you're like easily manipulated. It just means like, oh, you bought up some icky. shit for me just now with that thing you said. But to the point of CPCSD, what you're saying, that that's like a big part of getting a grasp on it is accepting that you will never

completely get rid of a trigger and you will never completely get rid of a wound. And it's very important to take, to also take responsibility when you're triggered to be like, I know why I'm being triggered by this. Like, can be totally valid, but like you can also know why it's hitting you. hard too. Even just the trigger for me of like that moment when Tyra was showing her like you can kiss my fat ass and I was like and I was like that was a trigger for me because it was also the start of like body positivity and I use air quotes to say it was almost like it got co-opted and we're seeing it now where people are like well I'd happen in body positivity and it's like my nutrition said the best thing to me where she was like the goal is body neutrality. Yes. That's really what it is. It's being able to exist in your body, skin, skinny, just big. And just exist. Yeah, and just be like, oh, okay.

Yeah. And it's like, because even now in this like, as people are calling it, like, the death of body positivity thanks to weight loss shots. I'm like, I know. No, that's not. This is. I just, I personally. Yeah, I'm like, I personally just wanted my health bag.

But I'm still. And I'm like, and let's be clear. Again, I'm 5'10 and I'm now smaller than I was at the pageant. I still walk into stores and ask where the plus sizes are. Right. I'm like just now to the point where like I used to have to buy Excel for it to just fit. And then you get to the point where it's like I buy Excel for it to be a little baggy. And I just hit the spot where I can sometimes buy large and it's baggy.

And I'm saying this now with somebody that when I do brand events and they send me what size do we send to you, I typically send back an email that says if you have a smaller or next small, just spend me whatever you want. Yeah. And then I will still ask, though, does your brand, though, have inclusive sizing? Yeah. And they will, and I've had PR people look at me like, okay, well, girl, you just asked us to send you an extra small.

Why do you care if we have double X-Ls? And I'm like, because I'll be really honest. Like, it's, um, somebody's going to be like, bitch, what? It's like when I hear disability activist talking and they're like, everybody should care about ableism because at some point, all of us will need. mobility assistance. And I cared about ableism the moment I had to start pushing wheelchairs with my grandfather.

Right. That was the day I became fully aware of how ablest our society is, how much we lack mobility. It's why when I see a YouTube video or a TikTok about like, oh, something to help you slide your socks on, I'm like, it's not for you. No. Not for you. Clifton. Yeah, it's for somebody who cannot reach down and put their socks on. Yes.

Now if Chad. I saw one of your comments on. one that opens water bottles. Yeah. And he was like, I'm sorry. I thought it was like just laziness. I didn't realize this. Yeah.

And truly, it's like, okay, if Chad, though, at the frat house doesn't want to lean down and put his socks on. Yeah. He can buy this, but that's not the intention. And I oftentimes feel the same way about fat phobia. Yes. That I do ableism, which is, I have been small. I have been big.

Yes. I have been smaller again. I may be big again. So because I don't know where the good Lord plans on taking my body I would like to have a more size inclusive world

is better because it's better for every I'm like look at what happened to the world of makeup the moment Rihanna said I'm going to make makeup for all the skin tones that exist in black spaces from the whitest albino

where I'm like it took that long But here's the crazy part. When she said, I'm going to make makeup for the whitest albino black person all the way to the darkest black person. Yeah. Everybody went, you're just making for black people. But guess what I saw online? The palest white redheads being like finally a foundation for me.

Yes. I have never been able to find my color. Yeah. And now what's happened in the beauty industry? You've got tier tier, a Korean makeup brand, making inclusive shape. Yeah. Because even they see the market value. And it's like, so when I watch something like a top model doc and Tyra's like tune back in for cycle 24, I'm like, Tyra, I mean this with love.

Drag race exists. If I want to see a show that plucks people from obscurity, makes them beautiful, gives them a platform, I would rather do drag rates. Because I'm also getting reaffirmed as a woman. Yeah. of how gorgeous I am because I'm watching the tallest bitch ever Utica all the way down to the shortest one like gorgeous. I'm watching bitches that can't walk on the runway. I'm watching girls who's runway walker insane.

I'm watching people come out with fake breastplates down to queens who are like, yeah, I don't wear fake boobies. I just come out and whatever. And you're like, and it's like, and I find myself with my big feet being like, where does she buy those shoes? I like those shoes. Where'd you get them? Yeah.

Or the girls who were flat-chested, or even now in this weight loss journey of myself, where I'm like, oh, okay. So that's what I can do to feel more confident than this. It's like, it's not that there's a shift. It's like, I think also there's like a Walloichi for every piece of pop culture that's good. It's like there's a piece that's like kind of repugment. Yes. And so it's like, and I think post-top model doc, I hope one, people give themselves. grace if they did get trauma from that kind of a show.

Right. But also, I hope for the general public, we start to open our eyes up to, one, the actual academic anthropological pop culture part of it. Yes. And two, how much it impacts culture. And if you see something, call it out. Like, say, like, hey, because let's be real. Tyra ain't doing that dot because she is a good person.

Absolutely. Tyra's doing that dot because she's trying to re-referral. boot top model. And I'm starting to, I think it is that. And I feel like it's the fact that Hulu's about to, I just saw Lisa DeMato. I think it's called Dirty Scandals. Yeah, it's dirty secrets and they're breaking down a, oh, this is also, this is my Mount Rushmore. Uh-huh. Because the way I live for the fact that people love to fight me about this. And I'm sure everybody knows this. There are two Fire Fest documentaries. Oh, yes. One is on Netflix. One is on Hulu. Now I know everybody loves the Netflix one because Homeboy says he was willing to suck some peen to get some water.

Yeah. But I hate that documentary because the fuck Jerry guys who were kind of like the marketing team, like the media agency behind it were the producers. Tyra is one of the producers on that doc. Now here's how I told my boyfriend, I know Tyra's crazy. Uh-huh. Because the fact that Tyra did that whole documentary, it saw them clips, reviewed the clips with an editor and with her other producer and said, yeah, this is good.

Run it. I think she thinks she ate. I think she. Oh, I know she thinks she ate. I think she like, think she absolves herself. I think Tyra genuinely watches that doc and is like, I'm the good guy in this story. Which is that in itself, I'm obsessed with stories where people, because I'm reading the Bernie Gets book right now. And the way it starts where it's like him running from the subway and kind of being like,

who, okay, did what I had to do. I'm like, oh, you're the hero in this story. Yes. And there's no changing your mind. I mean, that's certain people who are sitting in the White House. I was going to live in a Tyra Bank's life. Like you, they believe it. They believe.

When you show them the evidence, they're like, like, I just, in my head. As somebody who worked in TV, I watched that doc and said to my boyfriend, oh, Tyra is delusional. Totally. Because she worked, she saw all of this, all the clips, all the interviews with the other girls. He saw, she saw Miss Jay saying, Tyra has not come to see me after my stroke. Yeah. And said, oh, but see, Ms. Jay says not yet.

She knows. That was the most devastating part of the doc. It was so heartbreaking. I haven't seen Tyra not yet. And then to find out when people are like, ooh, Miss Jay was being shady, it's like, Miss Jay just got a handle on speaking again post-stroke. Well, and I just saw Jay Manuel did a, Yeah, said that he, yeah,

walking a little bit. And that was when I also, well, that was when I also realized he, or Miss Jay was in the hospital for almost two years. This is what I'm saying. She had time. Blue my mind. Blue my mind. I said Tyra looked at this doc and thought it was good. I think so.

So for me, that doc is the fuck Jerry Netflix one. I completely, yep. Now when it comes to Firefest docs, I love the Hulu one. And people love to be like, you like it because it has Billy McFarlane. I say this as somebody who used to have Netflix colleagues as former Netflix employees as colleagues. Because they used to fight. They were like it because Billy's in that one. I said, no, I like it because not a single person who helped to put the doc together is listed as a producer.

And I was like, so they're very clear about the involvement of the fuck Jerry team. They're very clear about how screwed up Billy is. They're very clear of how complicit every single person was, like all of that. And that's the part I'm excited to see with the second doc is that I'm like, I want to see Netflix and Hulu again. I'm like, we keep doing this. And I'm like, and if I'm a big wig at Hulu Disney, I'm like, I know we have this one hour special coming. I need a full feature doc. Yeah.

I need us to talk to Lisa. We need to turn that into a full 90 minute documentary like what Netflix has. Yes. Because it is. And that's it's the same. reason I love books, right? It's like Heather Ann Thompson has the most beautiful Bernie gets book. And then there was another book out that's called Eight Shots by this dude. And I had somebody describe it to me. They said, do not read it. It removes the racial implications of the

Bernie gets. It honestly kind of takes Bernie side in it. It kind of lays out like a little bit of like a devil's advocate. Like, well, he had his reasons. Yes. I have someone in the YouTube comments doing that. It's just truly. And it's like, and that's the thing. It's like from just books or pop culture. Like all of this stuff

is things we consume that we can either go into as conscious consumers. Like that would be my if somebody was like, okay, what's the thesis? It's like, then just be a conscious consumer. Because I'm going to be real frank. Tiber drops the 25th cycle of Tom Lolo.

You don't watch. I'm going to probably watch it, too. I'm going to watch it. I don't know what to do with that. I feel so conflicted. It's the same reason I hated. I didn't hate it, but every second of The Housemaid, for me, was a hate read in a delightful way. And you want to know what I did the next day on New Year's Eve, I went to the theaters to see the movie.

I went by myself. I wore my coat. I went to a theater that is like 30 minutes from my house. There is a movie. Nobody would see me. There is a movie theater I can walk to from my apartment. And I still drove. I love that.

30 minutes to the valley to go see it. It's amazing. I was in my coat. I was in the Supreme if I did go. Truly, I was hunkered down in my seat. You're like, don't know what he's. Yeah, I was like. I'm so embarrassed.

Oh my God. I'm here in this savage movie. I'm giving Sydney, sweetie, my money. Oh, no. But, like, I am a conscious consumer. Right. I am not, like, I am never watching Housewives being like, that's what I want to be. I am watching Housewives being like, hmm, Boz is having a, okay, Bose is having an issue with Amanda because of this, this and this.

Now, am I also enjoying it on a silly level? Yes. does it validate me when I'm watching Michelle Obama on her own podcast, explain housewives to her brother? Oh, I loved that. And she's like, I don't really remember. And then she's like, rattle. And then she gives the most detailed breakdown of Teresa Judice and the table flip. And I love that he's like, so was there like an empty table? She's like, no, it was a fancy dinner. I had to pause the pod. I walked my boyfriend through the scene. I go, so now you have to remember. I said, I want, I said, what do you think of when you think of New Jersey? He said Snooky. I said, okay, so I need you to take Snooky, turn the volume up times 10. Yeah. That's Teresa Judice.

Mm-hmm. He said, what? I go, imagine. I said quintessential New Jersey. I said, she's all Joe. Joe. My daughters. I love my daughters.

I love my daughters. I love my daughters. I love my life. I love it. Oh, look at your face. I love my babies. I said, Caroline Manzo. I said, what do you think of when you think of a wife from the Sopranos?

Mm-hmm. And he was like, blah, blah, blah. I said, okay, so again, 10 times, I said, Caroline Manzo, this is about my family. You do not go against the family. Yeah. And then I proceeded to lay out that entire table flipping scene. And he goes, this sounds like cinema. It is.

And I go, babe, you couldn't write TV that good. Same thing with the top model doc. Yeah. When they had that moment of Nigel, Mr. Jay, and Miss Jay together, I said, you couldn't write an to a show as good as this. I said, this is fucking cinematic. Yeah. Because the movie, the movie buff in me went, I'll tell you what the story is.

I said, you take Jay's book, his nonfiction retelling of top model. Yes. I said, do you know how I said, and here they initially were put as pit against each other. These two queer men of color were not allowed to carry a show. That was also huge too. Like, we were. blew my mind. And they were like, and then they had to bring in Nigel, which that made me laugh.

Because I was like, talk about white passing and race being a social construct. Because Nigel's like, I'm half Sri Lankan. I'm not even really white. I know. But like, I look into people. Rugged masculine in the way he interacts with people. The same thing when they were like, yeah, when they said the thing about Jay Alexander or Jay Manuel, I was like, babe, I never. Because I grew up with flamboyant gay men.

So when I saw Jay Alexander and Tim Gunn, I was like, oh, okay. Right. All right. Yeah. Reminded me of my cousin David. Right. My favorite person in the world, this asexual queer man. Yeah.

And I truly was like, representation matters. Yeah. But like, they always forget the asexual. Read, bury your gays, guys. It's really funny. I love that conclusion. Yes. I'm obsessed with that book.

But like, that moment was so cinematic. Yeah. Of them talking about what this meant of knowing that they were kind of pitted against each of. I said, you couldn't write a. more beautiful. And I said, because imagine, if you watched a TV show of what that was

and then you heard a knock at the door, would we not as an audience be like, Tyra's coming through the door? Or like the characterization of Tyra. Yes. I almost cried because the idea of my head in this TV show of a knock happening at the door, Miss Jay being like,

and the door opening and it being Nigel and Jay. I'm like getting chills again. I said, I told my boyfriend, I said, that would be beautiful because that would be a, I said, that would end the male loneliest epidemic. Yes. Yes. I said to end a movie with the male friendships are the most important friendship. I said, oh my God, you might be able to heal incels.

If you put this, if you make a movie out of these three's relationship, doing this show, I said, that's what we need. The platonic heated rivalry. That's what I was about to ask. It felt like a platonic. heated rivalry. Yes. It was like, guess what? The real love story with the friends we made along the way.

Yes. This straight man creating community with these two queer men of color. Yes. And they are each other's family. They love each other. What we say when the patriarchy robs men, too. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

And so I'm like, so then again, it's like, you can watch that doc. We can all laugh. We can make fun of how delusional tire is. We can also be conscious consumers of reality. TV. But there's also glimmers of beautiful shit in it. Yes. And I feel, and to be honest, I love girl on girl.

Mm-hmm. But that's missing from it. Yeah, I think you're right. Where is the beauty of the things that we did gain from these spaces? Mm-hmm. It's not all bad. Yeah. Like I said, top, like top model may have made me a little neurotic about my appearance.

Right. A lot of neurotic added to my body dysmorphia. Which the when you were talking about it, another book wreck would be the bluest eye by Tony Morrison. Yes. Like when you were realizing how much of it was eternalized for you too, I was like, okay. But like for every bit of what top model quote unquote took from me, drag race gave it to give it back to me.

Yeah. The side things. Like did some people become great friends because they watched it together? Then there's like that's what I'm saying. Or the amount of people who did become models who use their platform. for something beautiful. Yeah. Who watched that size six girl.

Like that's Ashley Graham. She watched that girl who was a size six. Yep. And was like, well, I guess I could do it. Like for me, it was Takara Jones. Fast forward. Takara, the same woman that was screaming about, you know, who got eliminated after she said. And I loved, I still loved that Tyra confronted them.

Not Tyra. Tokara confronted them about their lack of sizes. She was like, you could find clothes in myself. Well, it was to your point. You cast me. Yeah. You know what I looked like. You know my body.

Why are we doing this game? Uh-huh. But then fast forward, I worked on the show that took, I was an intern when I worked on the show, Takar was the host on at BET. Wow. And I don't think people understand the full circle moment because I had started to get bigger. Now I was not as big as Takar, nor was I as big as Whitney. Yeah.

At my biggest as an adolescent, I probably wore a 10-12. Yeah. people need to keep in mind, I was also a junior Olympian in swimming. Right. So your girl was jacked. I was yoked up. My arms made, terrors look small. I was on the Chris Hemsworth path of string.

Yes. And to fast forward all these years later, to see, to be working on a set with Takara. And I remember she was interviewing playmates. Now, again, for people you have to understand, this is when girls next door was on. I desperately wanted to be, as I like to call it now. I wanted to be a pretty girl, a professional pretty girl. Yeah. It was like I wanted to be a playboy model or an S-I thing or I wanted to, I mean, at one point

when I was in my undergrad, I wanted to be Miss Hooters. I just, I was like, how do I get away from being smart and funny and get to be pretty? I mean, if you can't, if you can do it with that alone. Truly, I was like, if I could just be pretty, I'd be so happy. All my problems would be solved. Right. To fast forward and be on set with Takara interviewing a bunch of playmates who had written a book about how to have playmate beauty.

we were on a break for crafty and maybe this is where we end the episode because let me tell you this feels cinematic to be on that set I'm in New York I'm fresh out of high school I'm trying to make myself look adults and do all these things

we were at craft services and I remember standing there and Takara and this one playmate stood next to me and they were getting their food and Takara looked over at me and she was like you are so pretty

and I was like oh thanks I put this outfit And she goes, no, no, not the outfit. You. You know you're pretty, right? And I was like, what? And the playmate girl was like, I was just thinking that, too. The whole time you were like flitting around on set, I was like, oh, my God, that girl's so pretty.

Oh, I love that. So for me, like, to your point of who knows what friendships were formed. Right. Who, all the hell Takara went through to then see her thriving, watching. watching her have this show. She now has plus size lingerie and apparently it's killing it. Ooh, good. But to fast forward and see her thriving and then have her say something so kind,

I don't think she'll ever know that for me at that stage of my life. Right. To hear that from her meant the world. Completely. Yeah. And I'm like, I hope she gets her flowers for the rest of her life for what she means for the culture. Yes.

The same thing when I think about Shandy and all of these girls. When I think about Homegirl with her snagletooth, I'm like, I hope you all understand. I know it was horrible. And I know it rocked your shit and probably messed up a lot of your, I mean, listen, I speak as a fellow soldier on the front lines of professional pretty girls. Because Lord knows Miss USA did a number on me, but I also learned a lot from it. And a lot of people have come up to me throughout my life and told me what it to see me on that stage.

Oh, yeah. So it is like, it is truly the thing where it's like, watch that doc. Absolutely use your 2026 lens, but just know that like a lot of good also came out of that toxicity. Yes. That has changed a lot of people's lives for the better set them on the path of what they want to be. And yeah, it's just it's a wild time in pop culture.

And sometimes you can reframe it. And then what you went through. becomes empowering. Yeah. Or like I've experienced with some things lately where it's like even like my religious trauma, it's nice to be able to reframe it that I can talk about that world since I've been in that world. So it's like then when like you're saying, then the girls who are like it meant so much

to see you there. It's like you really can turn things. Yeah. You can really turn it around. And so like that, yeah, it's like amongst this whole, what are we going to call it, the top model syllabus. that you can consume of things we pointed out. It's like also know that there's a lot of like cool shit involved with it too.

Yes, I agree.