Bookwild - The Difference Between Twists and Reveals, But Also, Gladiator II, A Man on the Inside and a Writing Challenge with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Halley Sutton is back this week, and per usual, we cover ALL the things! We dive into the visuals of Gladiator II vs the plot, Michael Schur's A Man on the Inside, and give a writing challenge update. Then, we get to our main topic: the difference between twists and reveals. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am back with Miss Hallie Sutton. We're going to talk about all the things today, all the things that come to our minds. We have a topic, but inevitably we will spin off in 75 different ways. Yes, naturally. So let's see. What have I? So I've seen a couple movies, but it slowed down. I think, did I talk to you about Wicked?

Did we talk about that last time? No, we haven't talked about Wicked, but it's interesting because this, last weekend, I know, was like the biggest box office weekend. I mean, I know that it not only broke records, but I think it's interesting because like everything has been so slow for movies, like since the pandemic, that this is like the first time that it seems like it's like movies are back, you know, so we have wicked Moana Gladiator 2. I haven't seen Wicked yet, but I would love to hear your take on it. Well, I haven't seen it either. I couldn't remember if we talked about the fact that like I wish I enjoyed musicals. Oh, we did talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that's what

we did. Yeah. And it's like we've come so close to going because we saw Gladiator too, which I'll talk about next. But there hasn't been anything else that came out because like even Wicked and Gladiator came out two weeks ago. Um, and there just hasn't been anything else. They're actually, uh, same director of challengers, Luko Guadadadino. Whatever. I think that's how you pronounce it. His movie Queer is only playing in L.A. and New York. So you got to come visit me. You got to come and we'll go to do with it.

I've got to come see you just so we can go see it. Like, we need another score like the challengers. Totally. Actually, it's the same. What's the word for that? The person in movies. Yes, same composer. Yep.

Yeah. You got me. I am excited to see that one. I love, I actually am a big fan of Luca Guadaguino. He, so he did, the challengers obviously, call me by your name, which like, you know, was a great one, too, even though we now know the things about Army Hammer and like, there's some stuff about the fact that like the age gap between the two of them, that we all kind of like glossed over in favor of it. They're like, it's Italy, it's fine.

Right. But then he did one that I would highly recognize. recommend if you haven't seen it called a bigger splash, which is basically a remake of the French film La Piscine, which is this sort of like hot house erotic thriller where it's like, so they do a version of it in a bigger splash too. And it's got Dakota Johnson and Tilda Swinton and Ray Fines, Matthias Schoenarts in it. And it's like these, this couple is vacationing in Italy in this like idyllic villa. And then her ex-boyfriend who was, I think, also a friend of her current partner comes to stay and he brings his young daughter and everybody

starts to kind of like shift like what's going on and then murder happens and it's like it's a and it's and it's just also kind of like a very sumptuous like beautiful you it like feels like hot summer Italian movie it's great yeah now I know I need to watch that the other thing I need to watch is hereditary because jumping subjects here, I got entirely obsessed with We Used to Live Here by Marcus Clywer. That's my guess. It could be clear. It's K-L-I-E-W-E-R. I got totally obsessed, and I had a couple of people tell me I'd probably like hereditary if I liked that. Is that a book or is that a show or a movie? Yes, it's a book. Okay.

So there's not much you can talk about because I don't want to give away spoilers at all. So like one of my favorite devices, I can't say what it is. I don't want to ruin it for anyone. But the gist of it is this couple, Charlie and Eve, are they flip houses. And so they buy this house that's kind of in this rural, rural area. Yeah, like more isolated area and it's like this big Victorian house, of course. So you know we're going towards horror. Yes. And so they have like just moved in and basically the novel like starts right as someone knocks on the door and Eve answers it. And her partner, Charlie, is like in town getting

something. So she's alone. She opens the door and there's this family in five standing there and they're like, we were just traveling through and this is where I who knows exactly how it's worded but the husband used to live there when he was when he was a kid he grew up in the house and they're like we just really wanted to share show it to our kids since we were like passing through and like Eve is like I don't want to let them in but then like it's actually kind of a cool part of her character that the whole time it's talking about people pleasing and like how she just can't bring herself to say no and it was funny because even when I was reading it I was like the introvert version of this is like no role credits it's all done and then he makes a roll credits joke later in the movie or in the book

and I was like that's too perfect so she says yes reluctantly they come inside she tells them they can kind of only be there for like 15 minutes and she's really hoping her partner is going to get back soon because her partner does not have a problem telling people now so she's like shall be back soon, they'll leave. Family does not leave, as you could imagine, where this is headed. And then really crazy stuff starts happening. That doesn't make any sense. And I wish I could say more, but you don't want to know more.

I'll have to read it so we can talk about it. But I also want to say, I was laughing when you said I need to watch Hereditary because of that. Hereditary is great, but I've never heard anyone be like, let me enthusiastically sign up for what's about to happen. happened to me after watching this movie. Like that movie had a scene in it that I have never seen before on anything. And my friend and I, I was watching it with a friend and we have a tendency to kind of just like jibber jabber through the thing, you know, making little comments.

And the scene happened. And we both were like, what? What? I'm like, we just like couldn't believe it. So I'm, I can't wait to hear you, your verdict on it when you see it. And you'll know, you'll know. I'm excited for this scene, whatever this scene is that awaits me. You'll know. And similarly with we used to live here, this doesn't give anything away. But like everyone I've talked to who has read it, like it's in the reviews and like the people I've talked to talk to about it. the attic in the basement have some scenes that are just like uh what?

Oh, intriguing. Truly terrifying. And then like the best way I can say it without giving much away is there's a lot of complicated story structure to keep up with. And I'm just learning how much that like captures my entire attention. So I've been liking that lately. Totally. That's very cool. I want to talk more about that. And I think that I'll, I'm not trying to jump the gun because we have other things to talk about, including Payne with Pascal. But I do think, I do think story structural will play an interesting part in what I've been thinking about in our conversation today. So. Nice. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It works perfectly. Well, speaking of Mr. Pascal.

What did you think of Gladiator 2, the gladiating? So I. loved the visuals. I loved the men. And the women. I can't think of what the actress's name is right now. Connie Nielsen. Yes. Yes.

She's beautiful. She's stunning. As beautiful as she in this one as she was in the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I loved what it looked like. The plot and some of the dialogue was a little underdeveloped for me.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm glad it's not just me. There were, I really think the first one, I have so many thoughts. And there will be spoilers, I think, maybe that I'm going to talk about for Gladiator One. But that movie came out 23 years ago. You've had your time. You've had your time.

So, like, to me, that's almost like a perfect popcorn movie. It's like a little bit smarter than it has to be. Russell Crow is just charisma on fire on the screen. and it's it's just like it's so well structured and contained whereas this one felt like kind of sprawling and not as focused you know what I mean like that's how it felt to me I thought listen I love to look at all of the men who were in here I thought Pedro Pascal was kind of wasted like I didn't think he didn't his role kind of didn't wasn't much of anything and then Paul mescal or Paul mescal mescal mescal yeah I was saying it to rhyme with pastor Pascal. Yes. He's a great actor, not gladiator great. Am I wrong?

Like he's like a great like soft boy. He's not gladiator. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen different perspectives on it. And so it's like some of it, I don't think this is, I'm going to still keep it vague. If you totally want to skip spoilers, maybe just like skip ahead a few minutes, I guess. but there were also like some things for the character he was playing that like basically there's a change of heart that happens really quickly and suddenly and like did not make sense to me yeah so i've seen some perspectives that are also like he wasn't given as much to work with sure so and i kind of see it both ways but you're right he is just like he is such an emotional like more you're sad feeling.

than like anger and like overt masculinity in all of his other roles. Which is also like fine. Like I'm not here being like toxic masculinity is what I would like. No thank you. But like, but I agree with you. And the only one who really rises above it is Denzel because I mean, first of all, Denzel is a national treasure. But like I really think so it's like my favorite thing to analyze movies like from a story

perspective. And I think that's like you like to do that too. And that's why we have such fun talking about it. but like Denzel, whether it's in the script or whether it's Dan Denzel making choices, he seems to have an interiority to the character. Like he seems to be, you're watching him and you know he's thinking like five moves ahead on the chessboard, you know he's got some sort of plan, even if when it's revealed it's semi half-baked.

But like that's the thing that like the other two leads, Paul Meskell and Pedro Pascal, are sort of missing. And I'm not saying that's a flaw in their acting. I kind of seems like the script wasn't totally there. like they don't seem to like like what are what are they thinking what do they think this whole time and it's like even if you don't know you see that denzel is thinking you know like there's like you sort of he has a depth of character and part of that is just like what he brings to the role you know yeah yeah yeah i saw before i saw the movies you follow blakely thornton have we talked about

him we've talked about him but i haven't i don't follow him okay he's amazing i love all of his takes i wish I mean, I think I am pretty witty, but I wish I was as witty as him. But his take, he was like talking about it and he was like, and then we have Denzel just chewing up scenery and everything he's in. I'd never even heard it, but I knew what he meant by it. Oh, yeah. So then when I was watching, I was like, he was right. He was completely right. He makes a meal out of it. Like he does like every little gesture. He like gestures with his clothes and everything. He fiddles. The ring. Like he's just like he's got this sort of

like he feels more particular and individual than every other person in that film like and yeah it's i agree it's just he's he runs away with it by far yeah he does the only other thing i saw about him that i was like oh my god you're right when i like i didn't i didn't notice it while i was listening he's like the only one who still just got to have like completely american accent like oh yeah sounds he just sounds like Denzel. And then someone pointed out like, I won't say who it is to like try to hide plot points. There's some point where he's talking about one of his slaves and he says, hose him off and bring him in and people are like, are there hoses? So like I also get that. Like there is silly stuff like that, but he had the most presence. You're totally right. And yeah, totally. So

and I think it's almost because Denzel is so good that he can transcend because it's also like, it's this weird thing and I think about this all the time and I'm sure there are think pieces out here about it, but like we watch a movie set in ancient Rome and the default is a British accent, which also makes no sense.

Which also doesn't make sense. Right. And so it's like you might as well be American, but like because it's Danzel, he can carry it off, you know? And like, okay, to your point about anachronisms, I don't know if you caught this, but there's a small moment in the movie and I don't think it's a spoiler to say this,

but there's a flashback to a character when he's a young boy and some soldiers come into town looking for him and it kind of follows him as he like sees the soldiers and runs away. But you hear the soldiers talking to the town people and they say, have you seen this young boy? And I was like, what do you mean?

Like a photograph they're showing like a, or like somebody like drew him. Like what do you mean? Oh my gosh. How did those get by? I think we got by because this is a thing I was thinking, as I was watching it too, that I think is like an interesting conversation to have around this, which is like Ridley Scott, the director who made this, who was also the director who made Gladiator, made Alien, made last year's Napoleon, extremely prolific. But he's like, he's like in his 80s, I think. Yeah.

And so he's kind of working at this feverish pace. And there's something interesting about that. Like I gladiator two, I don't think anyone would argue with me as not as gladiator one and maybe didn't need to be made. But like, I get the sense he did it because he like wanted to live in that world again. And it's interesting to think about like as an older artist like what are the things he's wanting to revisit and do. And like maybe they're not as strong as they were when he was younger and had like a different sort of vision for stuff. But there's also a part of me that admires like just get out there and take, be like, be like, fuck it, we're putting sharks in the Coliseum.

Like, you know. We're a bad CDI too. Like, the sharks are so bad. The sharks and the baboons. I was like, really? You don't have better than this? Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

I know. I know. The piece I'm going to say that I think is a little bit spoilery for Gladiator 1. Actually, a big bit spoilery for Gladiator 1 is Russell Crowe dies at the end. And I actually think that's what makes that movie work. Yeah.

Like, because they're talking about, there's a whole thing about, and you see it in Gladiator 2, there's a dream of what Rome is. You know, the idea of the republic ruled by the people for the people. And so the fact that Russell Crowe dies at the end and that he, there is essentially no one figurehead to return the city of Rome to. It's going back to the Senate. That's like the victory of it. And so, and maybe I'm thinking about that more in this time when there's an election that went away that scares me and like that I have fear about.

But like the struggle for Gladiator too is they're sort of like let's return it to one good man. And it's like we don't, I don't think that's good. I don't think that is the dream of Rome and I don't think that's the dream of democracy that it should be in the hands of one single person, even if they're a moral person. because power corrupts or like who will it go to next. And so like it kind of in a way betrays what was so great about the first movie, which is like we we've created, we were going back to the dream of Rome. And now it's like, well, that didn't work. Let's, you know, I don't know.

That's a, yeah, see, that's a really good point. And it was I saw a funny TikTok that was like every, every man at some point in Gladiator 2. And it's like, I will save Rome. I will save Rome. I will say wrong. Totally. All of things say it at some point. And Connie Nielsen over here being like these fucking dudes, you know.

Yeah. But there was a lot of man thigh. So I didn't hate that, you know. There was. So yes, there was lots of man thigh. Really defined. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Did not hate that. No. Yeah. And the, what was the other thing that made me think of? Oh, I keep seeing John. than Bailey's lies thighs all over my tic-tok now too because he's doing the wicked breast tour and he and wow jeff goldblum are hilarious together in all of their press like i'm just dying i got to send you a couple they're so funny together in their interviews i'm like like and

obviously cynthia and um ariana have they have a thing they have their thing going on yeah i i can't believe I'm saying it, but I'm really here for the male side of the press store for Wicked. I get it. I think it's really sweet that Cynthia Arabo and Ariana Grande seem to have this really close-knit friendship, but it's also giving like intense theater kid energy to me, which is like also a little bit sort of wearing. And so I'm like, I want to see more of the, sorry to the theater kids out there. I know.

I want to see the Jonathan Bailey, who's having like a crazy year. Totally. Just like knocking him out. Yeah. He was saying he was doing, he was rehearsing like his dances. Is that what you call it? His dances for Wicked in his trailer. Apparently, I can't think of words today.

And his trailer for Bridgeton when he was even filming that season, like, he's just, he's been in so much stuff. I know. I love that for him. He seems so cool. Yeah, he does. He really does. What was I thinking that you were saying? Oh, you were talking about Ridley Scott, though.

And like this being later in his life. I also, there is a Clint Eastwood movie out right now called Juror number two. Same thing. I just like, I was wondering because it showed up on my AMC, but there was never like showtimes. And then I saw an article about like it just got an, a super, super limited release. And I'm like, oh, interesting. What is happening? Because I probably would have gone and seen.

that like I'm at least I've enjoyed a decent amount of his movies not all of them but totally so yeah I don't know what happened with that one either you know I don't know either I mean it could be like I mean who knows I have no real insider thing I just it seems like there the movie model has changed so much since the pandemic right where like things come to theaters for shorter periods of time and then go to streaming immediately and so like that may be like changing how they distribute stuff but it is interesting because you're right yeah Eastwood also like Clint Eastwood is like Clint Eastwood is is like a million. He's grandfather time out here and still making movies. It's crazy. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's Benedict Cumberbatch is like the star of it. I'm like it's not like this is like some indie plot or something. Or maybe it is. Who knows? I don't know. I guess I'm never going to know because I live in Indiana. Again, you got to come out to California. I know. I know. I know. I'll take you on my turn crime tour. Yes. Yeah, I know. We're going to, we'll make it happen. We're definitely a big happen.

The other thing that I know we both watched is a man on the inside on Netflix with Ted Danson. Yes. For anyone who hasn't seen me, because I posted about it a little bit, talking about it, it's by Michael Scher, who is Parks and Rec, Brooklyn Nine, Nine, and the Good Place, all some of my favorites of all time. Totally. So if you're fan of those, you're probably going to be a fan of this one, but it's this

kind of, I haven't looked into the fact that it's. at the beginning inspired by a true story. I have not done that deep dive yet. But it's this cool, cute concept that someone is stealing stuff at Anne, like a senior living center. And this PI gets hired to figure out who it is, but she decides she needs a man on the inside. So Ted Dancin's character, Charles, Charles, his wife just passed and his daughter's been worried about him, like having stuff to do in life and feeling useful and being around people. And so she's been encouraging him to do something. And he sees this ad in the paper.

And so he becomes a spy to try to solve it. But I would say leaning more towards the good place, it's. both very funny and very heavy and poignant and emotional and the like not funny ways too. Definitely. It's definitely a very emotional show. I watched it with my parents over Thanksgiving while I was here and my mom and I both cried and my dad's just sitting there stone faced and we were like, what's wrong with you? I cried so many times. Yeah, me too. But then it's also like in terms of the mystery of it, it's like very, I would say like a cozy mystery. Yes. Like, it's not, it's like lighter even than only murders in the building.

Yes. It's very, like, sweet and fun. And every episode is named after, like, a famous spy book or movie. Like, the first one is called Taylor, or Tinker Taylor Older Spy. And, like, I enjoyed all the puns with it. And then you definitely see, like, I didn't watch Brooklyn Nine-N-N-N-as much, although I know one of the, like, lead actresses was from that. Yeah.

And, but, like, you see a bunch of kind of, like, little things pop up from the good place. too. And it's so cute. I loved it. It was very fun. And it's eight episodes and it's 30 minutes. So it's like perfect for not that we were falling asleep, but it was our before we start to fall asleep show. Totally.

And like a perfect thing to be like watching with your family over the holidays. It's not very like there's nothing really objectionable in it. Right. It's pretty cute. Yeah. It's really good. I liked it. I did too.

And then obviously I got my most recent book obsession was we used to live here. Have you had any book obsessions pop up? Yes. So I'm reading one for review that I probably shouldn't talk about until I've written the review. But I just finished one called North Woods by Daniel Mason. And it's not a thriller. It's like, I would say it's more literary. It came out in 2020.

and like historical. It's like the, it's these, all these different vignettes and that tell the story of people who've lived in this house that was first erected

during Puritan times. And it does all these crazy things with point of view. Like there's one that's like from the point of view of a beetle and then there's like one that's, and it's, and there's lots of murder

and like shenan. It's like, it's highbrow and smart, but also. like you can feel how much fun the writer had writing it and it's just so enjoyable and just I really loved it. I'm recommending it to everyone. That sounds good. Yeah. Respective of a beetle. I thought probably, I think that's a first for me. Totally. And it's and then it's there's like slightly speculative elements, but it all sort of like works in this sort of myth. It's like it's the story of this house,

but using the story of this house, they start, they tell things that are like the story of America through it, which is really interesting too. So it like starts with these two people who've run away from their Puritan colony because she's supposed to be married to somebody and she doesn't want to be married to him. And then the next one is this like letter that this woman, um, writes after she's been taken into captivity off a colony. Like it's just all this, it's, it's great. I highly recommend.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Have you, did you read remarkably bright creatures? I haven't. But you know what's funny? It's that a friend of mine is reading it right now. That's why I came to mind because there's one there's like a pretty prominent perspective from an octopus.

Totally. And I'm like, what? Yeah, I know. And part of the reason that I wanted to read Northwoods, I mean, I'd become highly recommended by my friend Lane Fargo, but like I'm also, I don't know, I keep finding myself drawn to writing things from the perspective of non-humans. Oh, yeah. And I, and then I also keep being like, I don't know how to do that. And so I'm trying to like learn from other people. Nice. Yeah, I'm working on a short story. Have you heard about the, we're going all over the place, Kate? Have you heard about the doll houses that were used to teach homicide detectives how to solve murder scenes? No. So there's this woman from the early 19th century who I believe was a millionaire. So her name was Francis Lee.

Glastner and she created these dollhouse miniatures that were all these murder scenes and like she had the solutions to everything but like detectives would come in and use that look at them and try to determine based on the like evidence in that scene like what happened here and they're still I think maybe used today like I think they've been donated to Harvard but anyway I found myself the other day trying to write a short story from the point of view of one of those dolls in the dollhouse that have been murdered. See, that's cool. And it's cool if I can figure out how to make it work.

But, yeah. So I'm also really interested in reading perspectives from other things to try to, like, peel apart how people are doing it. Fascinating. See, I don't think I've read anything. I don't think I have. I don't think I ever have, actually. I need to.

I mean, Northwoods is a good place to start. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I'm just realizing, I'll have to tell you off air. there's some exciting things happening in January. But then I also realized I have so many neck alleys from January. So I am committed to my neck callie right now and some of the interviews that I have for the future in January. But they're good too. But I had a break from it for a little bit. And then I was like, oh, there's a lot happening in January. And we just added a couple of things,

too. So I was like, all right, I'll stick with these for now. But you're reading schedule. is intense, you know? Like, it's, uh, you read so much. And then you also, like you said, like, you're interviewing people. So you have to kind of like, I'm such a movie reader where I kind of go all over the place, but you're like, I have this, this and this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so, it's like the riskiest thing I do in my life is saying yes to a book before I've read it. But sometimes it's like, and like 80% of the time, I'm right. about whether I'm going to like it or not. And then every now and then you're just like, oh, I don't need,

sometimes it's like, I don't even know why it's not clicking with me, but it's not. But it is a little, it feels a little crazy sometimes. But I, this publicist, I work with Megan Beatty communications. They just like, keep sending me good ones. And I'm always like, I think I want to say yes to this one. Amazing. Say yes to the interview. Yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, the schedule is a little crazy. but kind of a good segue is that it's sometimes it's hard to decide when to write because I I've wondered about it before I've brought it up before like how it's easy

to be like oh I just like talking about books and reading books or whatever and I didn't ever want that to keep me from writing but at the same time book wild has gotten it got really busy here for a couple months and we just had other stuff happening to be

be fair and then there's business to keep business going as well. So I hadn't been writing as much, but I had been like, Kate, you know, you want to. You know, you want to. And so I was even literally, literally last week, I interviewed someone who her interview is going to come out on the 10th. So it's, it's going to come out a couple days after this is released. And she was saying, she's really cool. her name's Karen E. Osborne, and she published her first book at 69. And now she's, I think she's 73 now and has published multiple. And so, like, her kind of, like, message is like, it's never too late. Like, you're never to whatever your brain is telling you. And she brought up how, she was like, I asked if she had any advice for people who are thinking about writing. And she was like,

well, you're a writer if you write. And so she was like, I even just like, even if I can get 15 minutes in most days of the week, that still keeps me in it. And so then I had that interview. I told Tyler later that night, I was like, I have to do this. Like I tell him, like, she brought up just this 15 minutes. And I was like, I do have 15 minutes of scrolling that could be cut out. Like, I know that part's true. And so I was like, so I need to, maybe I need to do just 15 minutes.

Literally like less than 24 hours later, you and I were doing. DMing less than 24 hours later. It was so perfect. And you're like, I think, I think I need to do another challenge. You want to do a challenge this week? And I was like, well, yes. Perfect timing. Yeah, I hear you. It's like, it's always the first thing that falls off my plate. But I really believe that like writing is sort of like going to the gym where it's like the more you do it, the easier it is to do it and the better it gets. Like, yeah. And so for myself, I've been trying to be like, I want to write every day, even if it's

writing in my journal or writing an article. Like, I just need to like really be more consistent about like entering the space of like, I'm a writer and what I'm doing right now is putting stuff down. And like you said, 15 minutes. You'd be shocked. Like, as I'm sure you know, like you can get, you can actually punch out like a fair amount of words in 15 minutes, you know? Right.

And then it's like, I did it. I did it. Exactly. And then you feel, you feel really good. that you did it every single time. Same thing as the gym. Like, you actually never regret it, even though you can't always convince yourself to do it.

Totally. It's the like gearing up to do it that's often the worst part. And then once you're there, you're like, fine. And then afterwards you're like, oh, my God, I'm so virtual. I just, I haven't wrote words. I know. I came up with all of that. So how's it?

We were like a day and a half in. So how's it been going for you so far? Yeah. So the first day, I got locked out of my car. So that's why we're on like day and a half right now. And so I was writing later at night last night, basically. And then Tyler got home and he was like, so how was writing again? And I was like, at first it was like extremely intimidating.

And then it was like, oh, I can do this. So that was my experience with it again where like I basically got back to it. I needed to read like. a decent amount of the last stuff I'd written. I had notes on like where I was headed with it, but I was like, I need to get the feel for this. Bruce was doing that while I was writing, so that was fun. Chris has thoughts about writing. Yeah, he's very passionate about it too. And, but then once I started doing it, I was like, I actually can just,

I mean, it sounds so silly, but like you are making something out of nothing, and that's the part that's really intimidating. Yeah. But then if you just sit there and do it, you're like, oh, I can't do this. So that was my experience last night. Love that. Yeah. How about you?

Yeah. I'm kind of in a, so I don't know, I've been working on the novel off and on. I think I'm in a space where I kind of want to just finish something. And that's not going to be the novel for a minute. And I keep having all these strange ideas for short stories like I told. do the like murder doll house and other stuff kind of in that vein. And so I really want to just like knock something out. I want to finish a draft of a short story so that I'm like, see, you finish things. Like I think sometimes it's funny that I would even say this, but like, you know,

I published two books and sometimes I'm still like, am I really a writer? And like I think something that I need to like do for myself right now to push back against that idea is to be like, look, I finish things. You know, it's not just, because I have like, you know, seven drafts of short stories in the last couple of months that I've started and tinkered with. I need to just like finish it. So that's what I'm going to be thinking about for our challenge. I like that approach. Tyler has ADHD. So there's like our lives are filled with finding ways to effectively make yourself do stuff.

And that's one of the hacks with like to do lists is what you were just saying where it's like, can you pack like three? not time intensive things up top. Yeah. Now I'm having massive hiccups so that you can build the, build the momentum. And then it kind of helps you get to the other stuff. So I like that approach. Which funny enough, that's actually how I tackle my to-do list too. I don't, I've never been diagnosed with ADHD.

It doesn't mean I don't have it, but that is kind of, that's like the thing where I'm like, okay, see, look, you did some stuff. And then it's like, all right, you know, I think that's just useful for humans in general, you know. Right. I agree. And it, yeah, I don't think you necessarily have ADHD if you use it. But if you have ADHD, you like end up trying to learn all the productivity hacks that you can.

Totally. So what's the last thing where it came from for him. But yeah, I'm excited to see how we feel after a week. Me too. I think we'll feel accomplished. I hope so, too. Yeah. It always makes me feel like, wow.

And I did that. It's like sometimes you still can surprise yourself with what you can fit into your day, which sometimes makes me gaslight myself and I'm like, you're barely doing anything, which isn't true. But you still could surprise yourself with how many different things you can do on a day. It's totally true. And honestly, that's also part of it. I'm like, I live and die by my to-do list and I do it very analog.

I write it out in my journal every morning. And like it's both to like make sure things don't fall through the cracks, but it's also kind of nice to like at the end of the day to like look back and be like, see, I did all those things, you know? Like, I really did do. I wasn't just joinking around on my computer, which is sometimes what it can feel like. Like, I got through. Even if it was sending emails, like, still got to do it, you know?

Yeah. That's fascinating because also Tyler has started doing that in the morning. And he's like tracking everything. And he was telling me a couple nights ago, I don't think he would care that I say this. If he does care, you won't be hearing it. If you guys are hearing this, then lucky you. But he was saying he did. all of the things that he had said that he needed to do for the day. And he was like, and I still at the end

felt, I still at the end felt like I hadn't done anything. So then he was like, so I think I need to look at my workaholism a little bit again. And he was like, because I've been so convinced I haven't been getting anything done. He was like, I actually have been and I still make myself think that I haven't. So all kinds of things you can learn from to do lists with yourself. 100% and the lies that like late stage capitalism tells us and like yeah there's that one there's that one i think i brought up late stage capitalism to me recently and he was like okay he's like who is this radicalized woman i'm living with i love it oh yeah yeah so our topic our capital letters topic and talked about it, I think, briefly on the last episode, or we did it off air, so I can't remember.

I think we talked about it briefly on air. I think you're right. Yeah. The debate of a twist versus a reveal and then any of our offshoot thoughts on both of those words, essentially. Absolutely. Which much, this conversation has already taken many twists and turns. It has. We had to do spoiler warnings. We've gone everywhere. We've gone everywhere. were with it. Totally. And we finally revealed our real topic. I'm being super like dad jokes here. I am obsessed with puns. So I'm like all in for all of this. Yeah. So there are a couple, I think the reason it was the reason that we brought it, I got, it kind of got into our podcast last time was I had just seen Conclave. And my comment about Conclave essentially was I saw a bunch of people

that were like the twist at the end is crazy. And so I was like, oh, maybe this is kind of a more like a historical thriller than a historical drama. And then at the end, I was like, that was not a twist. That was a reveal. And it's a great historical drama. I think I say that every time I talk about it, but it wasn't necessarily the vibe for me. The difference, I think, for me is like the twist, a twist to me means like all of the information that you have. had before or a decent chunk of it gets completely flipped.

So it's kind of like everything you were perceiving was a little off. And then a reveal is just, to me, like you get more information. And maybe you weren't totally expecting it, but you get information where you're like, oh, okay. Totally, totally. That's exactly how I define it too. A twist is something that like upends your understanding. understanding of what you've read so far. And like it's it's often, I guess not always, but it's

often structural. Like the, the best example I think of is like the obvious one, which is gone girl, which is that you get to the midpoint of that novel and you understand that everything that you've read up to that point is actually through a different filter than you understood. And that it's like, that's not something that, I mean, you could guess it if you're a savvy reader and you sort of understand. But it's like it's not something that's like the author, like a reveal to me is like the culmination of all the clues that the author has put together and here's what it means as a whole. It's not like, like it's something that you should be. It's like the, it's the answer to the mystery or the answer to whatever question we've been

asking. And a twist is something that's like, oh no, like this is, I'm not in the same world I thought I was in. Yeah. I love that you said Gone Girl because when I was literally W-A-L-King my dogs before this, I was thinking about how it would help to talk about examples of stuff, but I didn't want to give spoilers. And Gone Girl came to mind because I was like, at this point, I think all three readers like have at least seen the movie if they haven't read the book.

So I was even going to use that example. That was so perfect. I think it's the easiest one because I feel the same way. And one thing that I was like wanted to talk about in this conversation, which is so I actually am annoyed by it both as a writer and as a reader is when marketing copy refers to something as twisty. Generally because they're using it wrong because they're and it's because it's a buzzword, right? Like everybody wants something to be twisty. Everybody wants a book to be gone girl. Everybody wants to read something that this like that just blew my mind.

But not all books can be that. Like for example, I don't think I've written a book that actually genuinely has a twist in it. I think there were like reveals. Yeah. Yeah. Because the first one I feel like one thing kind of could be considered a twist, but you're right. It's kind of a reveal too.

Yeah. And it's, um, it's something that a careful reader probably picks up on through the book before my character does. And then the, uh, so Gone Girl is like a good example of that. And then, but the marketing copy makes it really hard because then, then, one, it's like it's priming a reader to look for that thing. It's priming me like I see that and immediately my reader brain starts going, well, it's not like this because they told me it's twisty.

I know. It's not going to be this thing. And it's like it kind of ruins the experience for me a little bit or not ruins it, but like it changes it. And you know, that's, I wish we would stop doing that. I know. I know. And it's complicated because, I mean, well, even with we used to live here that I keep

talking around. Like sometimes there's a part that you do want readers, like when you're recommending books or writing reviews, they're kind of is something you want people to know because it might be something that will sell them on it. But then I know from my reading experience that I appreciated having to figure it out on my own as I read it. So I understand, and I don't think you're saying it's not, I understand that it's like a complicated art to get people to pick up your. book without giving away so much stuff but you don't want it we were just i don't even know if this is i mean it's there so it's like and we did talk about step and i did talk about it step was talking about kill for me kill for you is great i loved it but it has like if you go to good reads i guess what i'm saying too is if you haven't read this book don't read the first two sentences so i don't

think he's actually going to ruin it if you go to the good reads you go to the good read synopsis of it. Don't read the comps. Because the comps for that one totally have you go. And I still loved it. I thought it was great. I've said over and over again, it's like the best new take on the strangers on a strange rope. But if you see the two comps, you pretty much know what you're looking for from the get go. And it's still a fun experience. But can you imagine being completely blindsided? Totally. Totally. And yeah. I totally. And yeah, And I came in hot about not using the word twisty, but I'm with you. It's like, there's a delicate balance of like the marketing of stuff and wanting to draw people in who might be the right readership for it.

But it is like to a savvy reader giving those cues is like takes out some of what makes that so interesting. Like for example, like again, I too was thinking of books that I could talk about. But then again was like, but I don't want to ruin it for anybody. no, like there's a book coming out next year that has a truly excellent twist in it. And I even knew what the twist was because I know this person and we talked about this book and reading it. I was still like, damn, she pulled that like, I okay. But I'm like, I can't say what it is. I don't want to ruin the reading experience for people. I know. I know. And this is making me think of unreliable narrator. I don't need to. I don't need to. I don't need to. I don't

need you to tell me that. Totally. Totally. I don't want to know that. Right, right, right. And yeah, because that was led me into another one, which I think I can mention this again, because it was a huge smash hit that came out years and years ago, but girl on the train, I don't even know if I would say what happens in there is like a pure twist, but like it does have, it does play with it in some interesting ways that's like a little more structurally different than like a simple reveal. And again, with the part, you can get away with it because you're also working with an unreliable narrator, which also like, nobody needs to tell me that's an unreliable narrator. You read the first chapter and you're like, yeah, I don't know if this girl's on the level, you know. Yeah. Yeah. With that one, yeah, you know something's going on. We were just, we, Garence, and I talked about that one too. Because what was the context? Now I'm siking myself out because I can't remember if that episode's been published or not or if people are going to hear it the next time, but whatever. Oh, we were talking about when the only thing making someone an unreliable narrator is like drugs and alcohol, weight can be overused.

But we were talking about that one is one where it was like, you know that she's like dealing with that. And it's handled differently. Right. Right. Right. Right. And like, you're right. I totally agree.

And like there's, that's funny. It's like, I also see it as there's. a way in which all first person narrators both are and aren't unreliable because everything is filtered through their own experience. So like I got that critique a couple of times with the lady upstairs, but like I didn't actually feel like I was trying to write an unreliable narrator. I was trying to write somebody whose vision of what the world is around her is limited. And like that's different. Like she wasn't setting it. Like a true unreliable narrator is like deceiving themselves or the readers in some, like, spectacular way. And like, all of us are

unreliable narrators to some extent because we're in our own subjectivity, you know? And like, that's one of the other fun topics about unreliable narration. Yeah. And like, girl on the train, I agree. It's like, it's not just using, oh, she's an unreliable narrator because she drinks. It's like, her alcoholism is destroying her life. And like that's the like thing that you see throughout. And so it's like, it's not just to make her an unreliable narrator. It's like part of the like that character. Yep. Yeah.

A flicker in the dark is the same thing. And she's not even to make her unreliable, but she just has drug dependency. But it's because of everything that happened growing up. Like it's there to like serve her like character depth essentially. Right. Right. Which is very different. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. It is. What was that? There was something else that I was thinking about with, well, that's what it is, how sometimes I've seen critiques. And I've definitely read books where I felt that way where like the twist, it felt like there was a twist there because the author felt like thrillers need to have twists. Totally. And so then there's that part where like their books I thoroughly enjoy and it doesn't really have. twists even if it's like lots of lots of reveals like sometimes police procedurals are like that but i still wouldn't say it was like a twist totally and then there are some books i read and i love that the

twist is there and you're just like whoa i actually didn't see that coming um so i enjoy both kinds and then even even like sometimes in my reviews sometimes i'll say like moving toward an ending that you won't see coming. Because I feel like it's at least like explaining like you, you're going to think you kind of know what's happening, but there might be some other stuff. But I'm not always saying that because there's a major twist either. Right, right. It's just like, oh, the author pulled this off in a way that I didn't expect.

Yeah. Which is not a twist either, right? Like that could just be like a really well done reveal. It could be a twist, but it could just be like a really well done reveal where it's like And I think a well-drawn reveal is one in which I could have figured it out, but I didn't. And it should feel sort of inevitable. Not like I, not like, that's the other thing I think authors get in trouble for. And you're right.

Like, I think there's a lot of pressure in the marketplace to add twist because like everybody loves them. But it's like, but a really well-done twist is well-earned. And like, you're not going to fit into every book. But then the other thing is like to make the, you know, you don't want, you want to balance. You don't want to write an ending that is like, oh, definitely everybody guessed it. I saw that coming. But also if you write something that nobody could have guessed, that's also sort of cheating in a way where you're like, if I didn't have the tools to put this together myself, it feels unfair.

It feels like I'm being manipulated. Yeah. I, who, I can remember who it was. It was someone I interviewed really early on. And I almost think it was Alex Finley, um, who said like, you want like, 60 to 75% of your readers to not guess it, but you still want to have made it realistic enough that like 25% do. I was like, that's a really good way of looking at it. For sure, for sure. It should be something like somebody, it should be something that like surprises people, but they look back and say, oh, I should have seen that, you know, like not like look back and be like, well, that came out nowhere. Right. Like, oh my gosh, this is me like Glass Onion movies. Yes, totally. Knives out. I know what you meant.

But those, like, that's like the coolest trick of those is that then they show you things that you saw that your brain was not even thinking was related to the mystery. Even though like with going into a sequel, you even know that's the layout. And so you're even trying to. And then you're still like, wow, I did not catch that conversation off to the side that they let us hear. Totally. And there's there's one Agatha Christie. book in particular that does this that's like I just read and it's excellent. I feel like what we saw one of them that was made into a movie last year.

Oh. And it takes place on like Halloween. Oh, interesting. Oh, haunting in Venice. The haunting in Venice. Yes. Yes. I loved it.

That one does it too. Where then at the end you see all of these things. that he saw that we weren't noticing. Totally. And which I love it. And I think that's like the fun of it, right? And like to try to be like, like you get to be detective along with them. But her book, the merger of Roger Castle, has this infamous first chapter that.

And it's so funny because I'll say this and I'm not trying to do the thing that I just said I hate when people do. But also this book was published like 100 years ago. So like whatever. Yeah. You go back when you get to the end. of the chapter and the first chapter has told you the things that you didn't realize you knew. And it's like it's and it's so subtly done. It's really kind of crazy. Wow. Yeah.

My gosh. Now I want to read backless. Way backless. Deep backlids. Yeah, for sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I love. It just feels like such a flex when it's like here's what was there. and you could have pieced it together. Yes. Yeah. And I should just say, I realized I called it the murder of Roger Castle. It's the murder of Roger Acroyd. I don't know where Castle came from.

Okay. That's fascinating because I thought the title was Acroyd. And then I was like, oh, I mean, she wrote a lot of books. No, no, you're totally right. It was just my brain didn't filter. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I really, I feel like I should read more of hers because from like

is like respecting where we came from perspective in that like she really, I know how much she established so many of the like loose guidelines of the genre now. But I just don't end up picking them up, but I need to. I totally get it. And you know what's funny is that I like, I feel the same way where I'm sort of like, I like the idea of reading them more than I'm often driven to read them. But as soon as I pick one up, I'm like, this still holds up. Like she, once you're like in the world, you're in it. And it's like, it's just so good, you know, it just takes off. And it's never, what's interesting too is that they're never from, well, maybe some of them are. I'm, to be honest, I haven't read enough of her books. But like,

the ones that I've read that feature Urquil Poirot are not from Poirot's POV, which is so interesting. Because that's like now the kind of accepted thing is that you would put it from the point of you of a detective. It's often from the point of view of somebody else. And he's in there. And so you're, yeah. So it's, it's an interesting way to, to structure that. Yeah. That's good to know, or interesting to know, because what I was mentioning with the movie that we saw, haunting in Venice, haunting. I think so. Yeah. Is it had that same feeling where like you're kind of following the characters who've called him there. And then the reveal is like looking at him and then we see him like focusing on something. So you cut it the movie even kind of feels that way where you don't

get his perspective until the end. Totally. Yeah. They kind of did a cool. Maybe they did it right with an homage. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. And then it's tricky though because like with a book I just read that I just keep talking about, not talking about with We Used to Live Here. I also want to find more books like it. So that's like the other tricky part of it is sometimes you're like, holy shit, I'm so obsessed with this. I want to read another story like this.

Yeah. But then even at the same time, will it be the same experience if you're going into it because you're like, oh, I think it's going to be like this book. That's true. That's a good point. You're right. Like how do you replicate that surprised experience for yourself, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny because I just want you to be like, spoil it. I want to hear all about it.

Oh, I know. Well, I'll tell you, that's what I'll also say is I'll tell you off air if you want to know anything. Be jealous listeners. We have off-air conversations without you. Yeah, we do. We do. But yeah, I'm interested if anyone else has passionate feelings and thoughts about this, DM either of us. Yes, absolutely. I'm always interested in that too. Slide on in there, let's hear it.