Bookwild - The Man on the Train by Debbie Babitt: Dual Timelines, A Messy Marriage and Secrets from the Past

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

This week, I talk with Debbie Babitt about her new Hitchcockian thriller The Man on the Train.  We dive into how she gets to know her characters, how she figures out plot and what she's working on next.The Man on the Train SynopsisManhattan Assistant District Attorney Linda Haley is awakened early one morning by two police officers at the door. She has no idea that her husband has been living a secret life during his daily commute from Scarsdale into the city. Now Guy is the prime suspect in a brutal murder that could derail Linda’s high-powered career and may be connected to a cold case.And Guy has disappeared.With a warrant out for her husband’s arrest, Linda sets out to prove his innocence accompanied by an ex-cop who harbors a secret affection for her. Together, they travel to the scene of a forty-year-old unsolved murder and a night of violence that shattered the serenity of a small fishing hamlet just past the Hamptons.But as the manhunt intensifies and she begins to uncover the shocking truth—and the past Guy has buried deep—Linda must decide if the stranger she married is innocent or guilty. And if he truly deserves to be saved.Featuring tense, atmospheric suspense that moves at breakneck speed, this Hitchcockian thriller careens from a bedroom community just north of New York City to the picturesque beaches of eastern Long Island to a suburban train station, where a killer hiding in plain sight waits to exact a final revenge. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I'm talking with Debbie Babbitt, who is the author of three books, but her most recent one is the man on the train, which is what we'll be talking about today. And it is just crazy suspenseful. It has the Hitchcockian suspense vibes that I really, really, really love in a book. So I was devouring this book as fast as I possibly could. So here's the synopsis. Manhattan Assistant District Attorney Linda Hayes. is awakened early one morning by two police officers at the door. She has no idea that her husband has been living a secret life during his daily commute into the city. Now Guy is the prime suspect in a brutal murder that could derail Linda's high-powered career and may be connected to a cold case. And Guy has disappeared. With a warrant out for his arrest, Linda travels to the scene of a 40-year-old unsolved murder and a night of violence that shattered the serenity of a fishing hamlet on the eastern end of Long Island. Aided and abetted by an ex-cop who's in love with her, she searches for evidence that could clear guy's name. But as the manhunt intensifies and she begins to

uncover the shocking truth and the past guy has buried deep, Linda must decide if the stranger she married is innocent or guilty, and if he truly deserves to be saved. Hirling down the tracks like a runway train. This Hitchcockian thriller careens from a bedroom community to the Hamptons to a suburban train station where a killer hiding in plain sight waits to exact a final revenge. This is dual timeline, which you know I love. And also dual POP. We follow both people in this tumultuous marriage. And I was just hooked to this book. I had to know how everything was going to play out. was reading when I was eating. I was reading when the dogs were outside. Like, I couldn't put it down.

I loved it so much. And shout out to Gare for recommending this one to me. So I was super excited to talk to Debbie about it. So let's get into it. So I wanted to get to know a little bit about you before you dive into the book. So when did you know you wanted to write a book or when did you know you wanted to be an author? Well, it's interesting. I've always loved novels. always been a major reader. And I got a little sidetrack with acting and playwriting for a number of years. But I'd always love to write. And I knew I had to stop acting when I started rewriting my lines.

So that kind of segueed into playwriting. And then after playwriting, it was very strange because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I mean, I love dialogue, but I also love books and thoughts and perspectives and descriptions. and a first person books like a 400-page monologue. So I walked into a bookstore and I met a woman at the Harlequin romance stand. And I didn't want her to think I would read these romances. So I said to her, I'm thinking of writing one. And she said, you're kidding.

My sister's associate publisher at Harlequin and they need people to write the back covers. I said, what do you mean? I could get paid to write back covers. So he said, yes, I met her sister. she rips the cover off a book and says, write it. So I studied every book in the store. And I started working for Harlequin. I made a portfolio and took it to all the houses.

Got a job. So I was freelancing for everybody. And then I got a job, offered a job as copy director at Penguin Putnam. Which meant I'd have writers under me and freelancers and flop copy and 100 books a month. So to make a long story short, after all this. hype copy I was writing for all these best-selling authors. I said, I'm going to write a book. Yeah. So I wrote a book, which was my first book, Saving Grace, and I sent it out. And luckily, for me, I got an agent. And he made a deal with Otto Penzler of Penzor's and the rest is history.

All three of my books have been with Penzler. So it was a kind of roundabout route. But I have to say that being an actress really helped because I always start with character. And that's what taught me had to start with character and everything flows from character. Yeah, that was, that was going to be my next question. I saw in your about section that you were an actress and a playwright and a copywriter. And you've kind of answered, but how, oh, I don't know why I keep freezing. Yeah. But how did those experiences, do they affect how you write still?

That's a good question because with saving grace, this 11-year-old orphan in the South, started talking to me. And then at the same time, her older self, 23 years later, as a sheriff started talking to me. And the story started taking shape as I discovered their world. So that was how the first book worked. And actually, I think that's how I pretty much work. Then I have to work out the story and the plot and all that stuff, of course. This is a horror.

But with first victim, it was similar in that I saw a courtroom. And I saw a woman with a long black robe come through a door and sit on the bench. So I knew that was my main character, Alice. And same thing with the man on the train. You know, did the characters just come to me first? And then the story takes shape. So, you know, the great Russian director Stanislavski said, character is action.

So for me, I wanted to be organic. And all the twists and turns, which are wonderful, reveals. They have to come from the character. It has to be organic. And there are authors who start with a twist and then build the characters. That doesn't work for me. Yeah, I've definitely heard both things. Right.

Yes. Some people even, maybe they don't start with the twist, but they have some of the plot and they build the characters for the plot. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's crazy how many different ways you can write a book, basically. I know. I know.

And I guess because I'm character-driven, I almost should be writing. literary books but I love mysteries and suspense so when you're writing characters in a genre where plot really is paramount you have to find a way to make it all work and still be face etc but character driven well you figured it out um otherwise like so it sounds like the characters just come to you is what you're saying um and then do you start plotting it before you write Or do you just kind of start writing with the characters? Well, I used to talk into a recorder, which I would take everywhere, because it was hard to write with pen and pad when I get ideas and, like, run off a machine at the gym.

So I would talk into the recorder, which was never the writing, just ideas, dialogue, snippets, stuff about the character. And then I had to input it into the computer, which took hours because then new thoughts came. And I'd have, like, thousands of pages that wasn't even the book yet. So the thing is when you sit down then to write the book, other things happen. Yeah. So you're organic in the moment. And that's something I wanted to talk about, which I've talked about a lot, which is that as an actor you learn to be in the moment. People can always tell when you're not in the moment.

So for me, my characters have to be in the moment. So I guess what happens is they come to me. I start writing. and when I sit down to write the first draft, all the thoughts that were there on the recorder hopefully are there in my head so I don't have to go back. And then I do start writing,

but I rewrite and rewrite a lot. Okay. Yeah, before I have a full draft. I could rewrite a chapter like 20 times. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of rewriting. And the thing about talking to the recorder

is that things change as you start writing. So then some of that won't even. even fit what because now you're writing a chapter and the chapter that came before may be very different from the ideas you had yes a little schizophrenic especially when it's a thriller right I know there's so many details to keep track of like especially this last one like you had dual timelines like there's a lot to keep track of well I do dual timelines in all the books but in this case I had the husband and the wife yes so in grace it was just her point of view in two different time periods Although one was first person, one was third.

In first victim, it was three points of view, but man on the train was very different because I did have the husband and wife. And it was the husband who had the bigger role at first. Yes. I wrote that to give the wife a bigger role because she started really talking to me. That's so cool. So was the husband, is he like the first character that came to you then? Is that kind of how that went?

He was the first character. and he was really with me. He was my first male character. And he could have emerged like full blown for me. I kind of, I knew him. I knew where he worked. I knew his background. I knew how he felt when he got on the train.

And so he was a very strong character for me. Yeah. And then when his wife started becoming involved, that changed some of what, how I was writing the story. That's cool. I mean, without spoiling it,

did his past come to you? Like, Was that, like, did you know about the incidents that had happened when he was younger? Or was it the present, him on the train? That's a very good question. And because, of course, thrillers always have passed. But that was good because it's a good question because his past was there in my mind. Okay.

And I was writing him. And I knew how long ago and everything, maybe not all the details, but I knew because of certain things in his life. But that's really good. That's true. Yeah. It was their present were like both there. That's cool.

You mentioned in first victim, you have a character who is a judge. And then in the man on the train, you have the wife Linda is a DA. So is there something that draws you to characters that are in the legal profession? Absolutely. And it's funny because my editor, Louisa Cruz Smith, who I adore, said, you're drawn to authority figures because Grace is a sheriff in the first book. But you, another great question. My husband's a critical defense attorney and my father with the federal judge. And I don't know if that was all inside me, but I loved Perry Mason and I've always loved courtroom drama.

Even though my husband says you wouldn't like most of the daily. It's not very sympathetic. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And it's interesting because my fourth book now, it's actually an idea for a series, and she's a criminal defense attorney. So I've got the judge, the prosecutor. I am drawn to the courtroom.

You're right. Absolutely. And I love the dialogue, too. And it's life and death. It's freedom. It's, you know, the criminal trial. So it's great drama, I think. It is.

It really is. Especially in this one. I mean, it's in the synopsis. So it's not a spoiler. but the tension of a woman who is a DA, a district attorney, having a husband who is possibly a criminal, like that tension is so huge. Right, right. And that's why I thought she needed. I knew she was a prosecutor.

She had to be a prosecutor. And that scene at breakfast where guy says, well, do you ever think anyone's innocent? She says, not a fan. I highlighted that. And I was like, oh, this is like a big part of the book. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, my God. Set it up so well.

So you were mentioning that some of the inspiration kind of comes from your husband then as well. And I saw in your acknowledgments that you thanked him for collaborating with you. So what does collaborating look like while you're like writing a book and he's kind of helping? Well, it's interesting. He's great with marketing too. But I'll tell you with First Victim, I don't know if you've read that yet. and I won't give any spoilers away. He actually, I had written a draft,

and he actually talked to me about a slow burn that there shouldn't be something at the very beginning. There should be a slow burn. He was absolutely right. In the man on the train, I have to tell you, Guy was in my head for a while. He's been in my head for a while, a couple of years.

He's been in my name. He's been right that book right away. So I never knew about him, and he knew the story. and there was there's a huge reveal in it as you know one of the first okay so originally I had that and my husband said that's the whole book to him that was the whole book I did subsequent drafts gave them to my editor because things were changing and the wife I did things are changing and that got a little lost okay editor said to me that's the whole story this reveal the year that's

And that's what my husband told me. That was the whole book, which when you and I talk of, because there's a few reveals. And I want to make sure people are talking about the major. And it's only a couple lines. And they both said, my husband ever said, that's the whole book. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

It is the crux of everything. We're like at the beginning, you do some cool stuff with timelines because it's kind of like, it starts somewhere and then jumps back to. weeks or does it jump forward? I can't remember. There's a lot happening at the beginning, like this time. And like you're saying, you kind of think that he is the whole character. And then as the story gets bigger, like, oh, that's why all of that mattered. And like, that's why you told it to us that way. Well, that's interesting because so here's the issue. And I'll probably ask your opinion, especially when you read other books, everyone talks about how man is fast-paced, can't put it down,

and all that stuff, okay. And that's part of why, I love mixing up timelines, but that's part of why I do that at the beginning. And it gets the reader invested immediately. So this idea for my next book is a series, and that's a very different kind of book as it's usually one character.

And so my Asian is saying to me, you're really known for suspense now, and these kinds of books, are you, is that something you want to do? So that's something I need to think about because it's a story I want to tell. But if I can tell it the same way with the timelines and going back and forth that way and getting the readers vested, it really doesn't matter if it's a series character. And maybe it's a good thing because then people will follow her in subsequent books. Yeah.

So what came to mind for me, there's a book, is it, are you writing like not, is it not a thriller? Or is it a thriller? It's a thriller. It is. Oh, yes. Okay, cool. An example, there was a book I read called The Real Deal at the beginning of the year. And it was like it's kind of, I think in Goodread, it's good reads, it's under chicklet or like general fiction. But it was one where it felt like a thriller to me.

Like I don't break out of thrillers very often. but it's a reality star who, or not a reality star, a girl who was on a reality show that was like dance moms to quickly explain it when she was a kid. And now as an adult they're coming back for a reunion. And there's some mysterious reason that the show dramatically quit, but you don't know what it is. So it's told back and forth between present and past. And so like as the reunion's happening,

then you start to find out like, the big bad thing that happened that stopped the show. So that was one where like doing it that way does still keep me like really engaged and it felt like reading a thriller. So I mean, I'm always someone who is for back and forth timelines. Well, in saving grace, it's funny, the first draft I wrote in a linear way and it ended to do who the killer was and then it went to the present. And I realized that if I went back and forth, because the older Grace was, talking to me. If I went back and forth in time and then it met at around in the present part two, that keeps the reader in suspension. And it really, really works for me that way. So, and I love,

I always seem to have dual timelines. And I seem to able to flip effortlessly into them, although my editor said it's good if you put years just because the reader want to make sure the reader follows. But I really love that. Like it's their mind and it's going back. But in memory, I love all that. I really do. And I think that even in a series, and I, this idea is in New York and Florida

because I need someone on death row. Ooh. So, yeah. And I think there's a unifying theme that could carry forward in all the books, but yes, it's a thriller and it's still a whodunit. And we still don't know. And there's dual timelines.

Yeah. So I think it's the same idea. But I think you're absolutely right. You need to get the reader invested immediately. And if they're invested and they're not sure what's happening, but they want to find out what that means, it will keep them reading. Even though they don't plan that as a writer. You just write. You can't like say anything. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Did you, with this one, did you write it linearly? So like, did you write his backstory? Well, I mean, there's her story too. But like, did you write his backstory and then the present? Or did you write it the way the book happens timewise? I wrote it the way the book happens time one.

Oh, wow. Yes. And then I discovered more things. Okay. You know, and then there's a cop's point of view, which I wasn't sure. Suddenly I realized I need his point of view. So, yes, it really worked. For some reason, this really worked for me because it's a lot about memory.

Mm-hmm. You know, he's trying to remember, but you don't even know where he is, which is why it's good to have the wife investigating instead of him. trying to remember because you don't know what's going on now where is he you know that kind of thing but it worked for me in this way going back and forth it really did yeah yeah it really has we've been talking about the suspense with it but it really has the hitchcockian suspense like underneath it like from the beginning um gear billings is the one who told me like you have to go request this on net galley and so he was like you're going to be obsessed with it so i was texting him the whole time

I was reading it. But at the beginning, I was like, even before we kind of had like a full grasp of what happened in the past and how it was connected, I was telling him, I was like, it just feels so eerie and like something is just wrong, kind of like in all of the scenes. So how did you approach like fitting that kind of level of like creepy eeriness into like all of the scenes? funny that's why I was told that about saving grace it's really funny um where girls disappear in two different time periods um you know that again that's not something you can like think about a plan i think okay um i think maybe it's like a feeling and it's a sentiment and it's there and it's in my feeling so it's in the character's feelings maybe

it has to do being in the moment i know there's an it is an eerie quality because you don't quite know what's going on and the characters might not know. So, you know, I don't, I don't know how. It's interesting because people have said that about my book. Victim too. I definitely felt it for sure. I think some of it was because like at the beginning too, like you can just tell that their marriage is in a weird place. And it's it's kind of cool since you're in both perspectives because you have what he's thinking about her and then what she's thinking about him is different. But you can kind of see how they're both thinking those things. So how did you kind of approach writing their marriage?

Well, it's funny. That chapter I wasn't even expecting. But Guy woke up and I knew he's going to have breakfast with Linda and that kind of just wrote itself because it hadn't really been in my mind to show a marriage and people say you're portraying marriage as well but all the pieces seem you know I think sometimes Kate that things are unconscious in your mind and then when I write something happens and I say oh my God that fit perfectly with that image or what I how could that be? I wonder if subconsciously we're doing things that were not. not aware. This thing kind of just like wrote itself. Yes. Yeah. It's and I love when they

happen. So I guess I guess I mind, you know, if you keep your mind on what you're doing. Yeah. And the characters, I really think some something, I don't want to sound too mystical, but something happens. Yeah. That's what I'm, I've been doing this, um, thousand words of summer challenge with one of my friends, Hallie Sutton. And it was funny as you were saying, you didn't want to sound too mystical. She and I were talking about it last night.

And she was like, I don't want to sound like woo-woo about it. I'm like, no, but like it is sometimes when like you're like, I had it happened last night where I like didn't know what I was going to start writing. And then when I got to the end of it, something I had written at like the beginning of it, like played to. together. And I was like, that is so wild that like maybe my brain was there, even though,

like, I didn't know it. I think so. Isn't it so. And sometimes it just, I wish I could think of an example now. It happened in another book, but it was like so good. I couldn't. Yeah. I got how well it worked. So, um, but I guess from there, things take off and they build because now you have this marriage. And that really goes for me with Linda in Montau because she's having all these thoughts about her husband who just doesn't even has no idea where he is. And you know, I gave it a fictional name. And just to let you know, it's happened in all my books, my editor said, because you're changing, anything you're changing, like having an abandoned lighthouse, which isn't in Montau. She said, you have to have a fictional town because readers will write in and tell you all the things you got

wrong. What's interesting was I googled the town because I was like, sometimes it's like, what I had just read? I had just read a book that took place in Greece. And so like I was Googling a bunch of stuff because I've never been to Greece and so I'm just like getting the image in my head. And so when I was reading yours, I googled it. And I was like, I don't think this is real. Never mind. Oh, my God. Well, I will tell you that the Montaukitt Indians settled my, but it's not, I had many different names and came, but Manit Talk, it isn't one. But I thought it's close enough for people to know, especially if it's the easternmost. There are no other towns after the easternmost edge

of Long Island. Yeah. And my ed said you can use other. real towns like amygantzit where i actually lived for 20 years um use and you can say route 27 i said shouldn't i make it all fictional so it's funny how some is fictional like new york's real scarsdale's real yeah yeah that's what i was going to ask too so most of your books take place in new york or even like manhattan have you lived there like most of your life it sounds like you have yeah i have I've got here most of my life. And Scarsdale is 10 minutes from where I grew up in Yonkers, which is very close to the city. And I'm trying to think where else?

The place in First Victim, Lowood is all the way upstate. I was never that far upstate. And I've never been to northwest Arkansas in saving grace. Yeah. I did a lot of research. People have asked me, your first book, The South, an 11-year-old orphan in the south? Where'd that come from? They can't believe I've never been there. Yeah. You're like, I don't know what just came to me. And then, you know, a lot of it for me,

while I describe it and do the research, a lot of it's emotional and it's the universality of emotion. So it almost doesn't matter where it is. Yeah. It's the character's perspective on the place that colors everything. Right. It really does. I have a silly question. Because when I was reading, I also texted Gare and I was like, I really feel like there's a misopportunity to call this the guy on the train. That's so funny. Was that ever on the table? No, in fact, my publisher said, could we call it the man from Montauk to get all the Hampton

readers? I said, but he's not from Montauk. Oh, yeah. And that's like a quiet literary book a little more. Yeah. What's funny is maybe because I'd never written a guy. guy's perspective. That's why I called him guy. That makes a lot of sense. That's why he was a guy actually. And so yeah, I didn't really think. I never thought of that, but that makes sense.

The guy on the train. Yeah. So you did he, guy is also, he's kind of, well, he just is bookish himself. Yeah. And he like there are a lot of books, there are multiple books that are mentioned in the story. And it's kind of a two-pronged question here. But were they all books that you really love too? Or did it just feel like books that would fit what guy would be interested in? It was more fitting what he'd be interesting and not interested in. It's a very good question. And two of them by two authors in the book were part of it. You knew why they were there. Yes. That's what I was going to, I didn't know how to ask that question without spoiling it, but it was one of them was one of them intentional in a way to interpret the ending.

Yes. You made the climactic scene. Yes. Absolutely. And Linda would figure out where he is. Yeah. Yes. And also in his early conversations on the train, the very first scene, we talked about the classic authors and one of them talked, he mentions train. Well, you know that. So yeah, that kind of all worked.

That all really worked for it, especially because, you know, the name of the character. Yeah, it really did. It also inspired me because as I was reading it, I needed a podcast topic for something I was recording with someone.

And I was like, oh, bookish characters. It's always fun when you're, like, reading a book and, like, one of the characters. is like mentions that they like to read to. So we're doing like a whole episode on, um,

our favorite bookish characters in books. Oh, oh, I like that. That's so cool. It is fun. Um, so you said that you read a lot. Uh, is there anything that you've read recently that you loved?

Um, well, that's a good question. I haven't had time to like do a lot of reading. Yeah. So busy writing and you have to be promoting doing book signings. But, you know, I love a really well-written thriller. It has to be a thriller or psychological suspense.

What have I read recently? I mean, there's so many authors I love. Yeah. But was there something, you know, it's not that reason. I always like B.A. Paris, her first book. I don't know if you read behind those doors. I did, yeah. To me, everything's that last sentence, the last paragraph is just that.

that blows you away. It does. And I mean, there's so many really great books. I used to love, well, I love defending Jacob, which I read years ago. I know I'm going to think of more. I just blew me away recently. I have to think about it, and I'll get back to you on that. But as long as it's a really well-written book.

Yes. And it's a mystery and suspense. I enjoyed the plot by Gene Corlitz. remember that was a that was a yeah i haven't read it but a lot of people recommend it yeah i mean it's not like the thrillers we're talking about but it's all about i like things about writing yeah and i think years ago olivia goldsmith wrote something called the bestseller and i remember the they're trying to fire her and like she won't leave her office and trying to pull her out i like book about the industry too yes but i certainly love unreliable narrators oh yeah

I like plays on that and different things. Oh, I don't know. What am I saying? I did read a book. Yeah. And I'm going to be doing an in conversation with him at Mysteries. A.J. Finn. Oh, yes.

His new one. His new one came out, end of story. He just came back from a worldwide tour. And this is what I mean about. It's very hard to write a book a year. This was like six or seven years, which is what I'd like to do. Right. And this book is amazing.

Oh, that's good to know. A lot of allusions to Hitchcock and Christy. I mean, and he knew the old authors, but. And his sentences are beautiful. Unbelievable. We're, that's the last great book I read. And I will say great, great book and a huge, shocking reveal at the end. Man, I need to prioritize that one.

Yeah. The woman in the window was just. Oh, I loved it. And I told him, I told him this. like I've told many authors, like Downey when I read my lovely wife, I never knew them. And I wasn't published yet when I read their books. And I'm so impressed by the woman in the window because the writing is great. So good.

And again, the twists, it was great. So if you love that, love, end of story. Okay. I definitely need to get it. I need to read that one. Thank you for asking. My lovely wife, like I read, same as you probably. I read it years ago.

I still talk about it, like all the time. Yeah. I love that book. I know. I picked it up off a table and just started reading it because it looked interesting. Cover. It was great. Yeah.

It's, oh, it's amazing. So you are working on another one, so there will be more to come. Yes, absolutely. I speak with my address to see what she thinks. It could be a standalone, but I think it could definitely be a series. And it's extending out. I'm in Florida six months a year. So I go events and author tours there.

And what's great is half the new book will be set there. So that gives me an opportunity to have a new state, a new place to. Yeah. And again, it's back and forth. And it's the law, which I love. Yes, more of the law. That's good. Well, I can't wait for this next one to come out.

And you'll have to come back on the podcast. So this is great. Yeah. Thank you for coming on and talking about it. Oh, it's my pleasure. And I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. And thank you for you. Yeah. I still reread it. Thank you. So, you know, we're not supposed to read reviews, but like actors, but it's hard not. Oh, I would imagine. I know. Like, you don't want to read the bad ones, only the good ones. Yes. Oh, yeah. Well, we have lots of good reviews of your book on this side of the side of the podcast. Thanks so much.