Bookwild - The Night Side by M.M. DeLuca: A Grifter Mom, A Return to a Small Town, And Decades of Secrets

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

This week, I talk with M.M. DeLuca about her newest thriller The Night Side.  We dive into what draws her to writing thrillers, inspiration from her family for this book, and the staying power of thrillers with character development.M.M. DeLuca's InstagramM.M. DeLuca's website Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with M.M. DeLuca about her newest thriller, The Nightside, which I read last week, and I absolutely loved it. It reminded me of so many of my favorite books. There were elements that reminded me of where the Crawdads sing, which means, of course, it also reminded me of midnight is the darkest hour. The part of having a grifter as a mom really reminded me of Stone Cold Fox, which I really, really loved. And then also just like the way the story was told in the past and present also really reminded me of hurt for me that you've definitely heard me talk about on here before as well. So it just had so many elements of so many of my favorite thrillers. And it's about Ruby. When Ruby Carlson was 18, she ran away from her home in Stony Brook, Montana and vowed that she would never return, never returned to life under the control of her manipulative mother, Ida, a self-styled medium and psychic scammer who made a career outrooting people's lives. Never return to the small town where enemies lurk at every turn. But now, 20 years later, Ruby is back. Her mother is missing, presumed dead, and Ruby reluctantly

returns to a home filled with chilling memories to settle Ida's affairs. Did Ida really commit suicide by drowning, or is this another dark scheme? Ruby thought she knew everything about her mother, but finds herself unraveling a web of lies and secrets to reveal story more twisted than anyone could have imagined. This was, it was so atmospheric, so moody. You know I love a grifter con plot in the mix. And I also do love the trope of someone returning to their town after like successfully getting away from it and getting like dragged back to face all of the demons that they ran away from. So I was super excited to talk to MM Deluca about this. We talk about some of her writing process and what she loves about writing thrillers.

So let's get into it. Welcome to the podcast. Great to be here. It's lovely to talk to you. Yeah. I am so excited to talk about this book. It reminded me of so many of my favorite books, which is like in a good way. Like I don't want anyone to think I'm saying like, oh, it was the same story.

Like it just reminded me of some of my like favorite tropes and stuff in the thriller genre. So I'm so excited that you. reached out about it. Which books? So it reminded me of kind of like the outsider perspective, like being the outsider in town really reminded me of where the Crodads sing. And there was a little bit more like attachment to the nature of the town as a thriller, which also then Ashley Winstead's Midnight is the darkest hour is also compared to where the Croddads sing, but it's kind of another thing where like that being an outsider in the town is a big part of it. And she's really close with like one friend who's a boy.

Well, boy and then a man as they grow up as well. So it kind of reminded me of that. And then I don't know if you read Stone Cold Fox came out last year. That one came out last year. And it was also about a daughter who really struggled with the fact that she grew up with a mom who was a con woman. So kind of just fits all of some of my favorite elements. And I just loved how atmospheric and moody it was. Yeah, I know I get too dark sometimes.

I think I just sort of get so deep into it. Yeah. And then it just takes over. And I especially love characters that are loners. And that Ruby, the main character of the night side is definitely somebody who's, yeah, she's a loner with one. friend, you know, stuck in the middle of a toxic mother-daughter relationship. Yep. Those always get me, too. So that was another part of my favorite part of it. Before we dive more into the book, though,

I wanted to get to know a little bit about you. So when did you know that you wanted to be an author or when were you like, I have a book that I need to write? Well, I mean, I always loved reading. right from when I was a child and you know I would I was a bit of a loner because we lived I'm from England and we lived in Durham City which is a beautiful cathedral town in the northeast of England but we lived outside Durham in a small kind of country lane and actually borrowed a couple of characters from some of the people that lived there just the type of the type of people and I would read books and because I was on my own a lot, I would make little paper figures and reenact them.

It kind of sounds crazy. I would do that. And, you know, I always loved reading, but I didn't pick up a pen and start writing until probably in my 20s. But then never really had the time for it. I got super serious about it when I took a class at university here with Carol Shields, who had just won the Pulitzer Prize for literature. And the first day of the class, it was like a rock star walking in. But she was a little lady, very quiet, very charming.

And that really got me interested. And she's so encouraging. And that's when I started writing more seriously. But I had children at the time, and it just takes up too much time. I was a teacher that takes up a lot of time. And I didn't really start. but thinking about publishing until probably maybe 2010, I think. Okay.

And I self-published first because I couldn't get... That's what I wanted to ask you about. I saw your acknowledgments. Yes, I self-published some books because I couldn't get anyone to take them. Yeah. The first book I finished writing, I sent it straight to Random House to an editor because you could. That's amazing. And she was very encouraging, but she didn't take it.

So I self-published first. And then the first book that I got accepted for publication was The Savage Instinct, which is historical suspense. Very dark. And that's when I knew what I wanted to do. Yeah. I was reading through your other books, and I saw Savage Instinct. Is that what it? Yes.

I saw that one and I don't like normally read historical fiction but it sounds so dark and twisty and amazing that I'm like I just might have to it sounds really good yeah takes place in England right yeah and Victorian England based on said in Durham my hometown yeah based on a real serial poisoner who was hanged there in 1873 and who actually I discovered was born just around the corner from where my grandmother used to live in a little village outside of Durham. Yeah. And I didn't realize I used to visit my grandma all the time. Yeah. I was a kid and this murderer, Marianne Cotton, was born around just very close by. So I thought that was crazy. Something of this. And she was pregnant when she was arrested. But she apparently

killed all many of her children, stepchildren, husbands, and mother, apparently. Oh my gosh. I know. Now I'm even more. I had to be so cool. Did you know when you were writing it that she lived close to where your grandma had lived? Yeah, I found that out first and I thought, wow, I think I'm going to research her. Then I found lots of articles that talked about whether she had a fair trial, whether it was already hyped up at the time. Yes. Because the Victorian establishment thought that she was too free and easy for a Victorian woman. And she was poor and she lived in sort of difficult circumstances.

And children often died of natural causes. But while I wrote that novel, when I wrote that novel, stayed neutral or tried to. Yeah. Nobody knows. Oh my gosh. This is so cool. I thought there's like layers of mystery to to this historical suspense.

You definitely have me intrigued about that one now. So it's that so you've written multiple books. You've also self-published and gone the traditional publishing route as well. What is your writing process like now and like? did it evolve with each book? Like basically, how do you approach it? Yeah. I mean, I am one of these pantsers that definitely should be a plotter because

That's what they all say. I know, you know, I start off with a great, I don't have any problem coming up with ideas. And I start to plan the beginning of it. And but then something makes me want to start writing it. Like, I've got to write the first page. And then I write the next chapter and the next chapter. But the problem is, if you haven't plotted it, you meet a brick wall in the middle. Yeah.

Sort of middle ground. And so now I've really been trying to outline it first before really getting into the heavy writing part. And that's worked for me with another book of mine, The Perfect Family Man, which I have. has been very popular. I really outlined that one. And guess what? It was much easier to write it. I think I wrote that the fastest that I've ever written a book because I've outlined it.

Yeah. I feel like most people or most authors end up saying that they're pancers and they're like, I'd probably do less revisions if I outlined. But it doesn't sound like you're in the minority. It sounds like it's actually like. people more common they're like, I just start writing. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

It is better to outline. And actually, I've done some screenwriting. And I've written, I actually wrote a hallmark, which hasn't been produced with a writing partner. And he was very much a plotter. He had the outline in beats, you know, every little beat. And I'm like, oh, God, I can't do that, you know. but with his help we did finish it and that taught me a lot screenwriting does teach you a lot about spotting and character arcs and it's been that was very very helpful for me that's cool

yeah I definitely have talked to a few different people who are screenwriters as well and it is just interesting hearing the different the different things they learn from it like since it is a very different writing form you're not giving his main, like, details, but it sounds like it just kind of like strengthens your writing in general when you're doing a little. It definitely helps you with dialogue. It also helps you write more visually because I just feel that I'm a very visual writer because my favorite writers, if I can't see what's going on in my head, its body's floating in space, you know. Yeah. bodies just suspended in space.

If I don't know the setting or what's the details about it. Yeah. I felt that very much in the night side. That's earlier I was talking about. It's so atmospheric. And you do like really feel like you're in that town. Did you spend, I can't remember.

I know you kind of talked about Montaena and your acknowledgments. But did you, have you spent time? Were there any towns that kind of like inspired Stony Brook? for you? No, I made up Stony Brook. Stony Brook is every small town along that belt of the Midwest and the west. Even in Manitoba where I live, there are small towns that probably look just like something in Montana, just slightly different landscape. It's just that small town feel where it's hard to get away from people and everyone seems to know each other and it's a bit claustrophobic.

But I've spent time in Montana and it's just such a beautiful, dramatic landscape. Spent time at the Glacier Park there and, you know, driven through it many times on various trips, been through it to go to Yellowstone and also spent time in southern Saskatchewan, which is very similar to northern Montana. And it's just so wild and remote. And nobody around, but gorgeous scenery. So I didn't like that. Yeah, it was.

It was my, I live in Indiana, and it's a lot flatter. And there's a lot more corn. But I totally, I totally feel the small town vibe. I grew up in an even smaller town in Indiana. Yeah. That was like very glosserphobic. And everyone knew everyone's business. So that part I'm familiar with, which is always fun and thrillers, because it kind of like, especially with this one, Ruby, the main character has like tried to get away from all of these people.

Yeah. Because she doesn't want people knowing everything about her anymore. And now she's like, oh, I actually have to confront all of this because everyone knows what's happening. Yeah. And so to confront the enemies that her mother made. So that makes difficult. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Totally. So Ruby is a really interesting character, and she's had a lot happen to her because of who her mother is. And also because she did, like, it's not a spoiler, she did eventually leave and get away from that situation. But it is dual timeline, which is another one of my, I love, I love when it's done well. And I love when they come together so perfectly at the end, which I felt like this one did too. but how did you get to know Ruby? So did you write it's not, you don't read it linearly,

you read it going back and forth. Did you kind of like write it linearly from her being a kid to being an adult or like which place did you start with with her? No, actually, no, I went back and forth with the writing. Yeah, it was a real juggling act. I bet. I could move a lot of things around. afterwards, because they didn't quite work,

it really started off with that whole idea at the opening of the novel where she's trying to escape a seance and she's a child. That's what sort of started it off. And realizing her mother is just mad and disturbed. And that's an image of seeing her mother standing in the doorway with the light sort of silhouating her and all the mosquitoes buzzing around.

around her, just kind of stuck with me. And, but I always do this. I'm a sucker for backstory. And I always feel I've got to explain it. And I just think it's so interesting anyway that it's what makes, you know, people want to know what's behind these people. Because if there's no backstory, they're not a particularly interesting character. You know, they've got no depths to them.

And we all want to know what caused. this, how Ida became this scammer, you know, how it would be, why she wants to run away, and how she did actually end up running away. So we want to know that. And to have that sort of going along with the current timeline where she's back to sort her mother's affairs out, I thought, if I can just balance that and go back and forth, then I think that'll sort of up the suspense a bit, but it did take a lot of juggling. And I did move whole chunks around because they didn't make sense and cut them. Yeah, I obviously loved how it turned out. What was your, like, inspiration for this book or like, what was your kind of like, what if idea for it that got you

started? Yeah, I started reading some articles about this detective who, especially, specializes in finding psychic scammers. People come to him and say, I've been scammed of all my savings by this person who said they'd remove a curse or who said they'd find me the love of my life and they've taken all my money. You know, they've, you know, because these scammers,

they are really skilled in finding the vulnerable people, people who are grieving, people who are insecure. and then they just latch on. And they start off by doing some free stuff, but then gradually saying, well, you'll have to have this coast removal procedure and it's going to cost this. And then the cost gradually escalates.

And this guy makes it his business to find these people and try to bring them to justice. And there are actually a few people doing that. And I thought that was very interesting. And I found one particular case where the woman had a teenage daughter and she would get the daughter to start doing the tarot readings. And then when the person was kind of trusting her, the mother would sweep in and kind of take over. And I just thought, what a terrible thing to involve your child and get your daughter involved in that. So that was one inspiration.

And then my dad, his mother, my maternal grandmother, was in the spiritualist church in England. And when my dad was little, and he always told us this story, he would sit by the doorway while they did their seances. And they'd be tipping the table and speaking in tongues. And I said, well, weren't you scared? and he said, no. I would have been petrified.

Yeah. As a kid? Yeah. Or an adult, really. A bit of a family sort of blink there. And my mother always said, oh, your dad's mother always said, I had the gift too. Like my mother had the gift. And she said the night she died, I was sitting on my own.

And I felt something behind me. and it was her. I felt it was her. And when my dad came home, she said, your mother's died. And she had. Oh, my gosh. I know. That is, I mean, that's like very inspiring for a story. If anyone ever asked me to go to a seance, I say no. I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to either. Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. So it seems like most of your books are thrillers. not always with there's a little bit of a supernatural element to this one. Yeah. You could kind of say.

What draws you to writing thrillers? And it sounds like it was kind of family influence that made you want to go a somewhat supernatural route with this one. But what, what draws you to writing thrillers? Well, actually, I didn't stop by writing thrillers. That my first book was like a family saga, the Pittman's project, which was based on some of my mother's experiences in a mining town in northeastern England. So that's kind of almost like a saga.

Then I wrote a sci-fi trilogy, a young adult, sci-fi trilogy. Nice. Those are books I self-published. And again, I couldn't get anyone interested in publishing them, but actually that sci-fi trilogy has had some interest from people wanting to develop as a series in the past. So that's, I'm working on adapting that. Yeah.

So that's called the forevers. Okay. But then I got into thrillers and suspense. And I just really like racking my brains to come up with twists. Okay, yeah.

That can get difficult sometimes. You have to go up for work and really rethink it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I've, I love a twist, but I don't always need like five of them in one book. Sometimes it feels like it starts to take away from like the story feeling grounded.

So I feel you in that. If it just comes out of nowhere, it's like fake. I don't like. I'm like, oh, really? Yeah. That's too forced. Yeah. So you have to have the character development and the plot development.

development to support it. Yeah, the more thrillers I read, the more I'm realizing, like, my favorite ones are ones where they're, like, they are character-driven, like, there is a character arc, like, we're kind of feeling something more than just the thriller part. I think I love thrillers for pacing, too, is like what it comes down to for me, because I've accepted that, like, I'm just a pacing snob in that, like, I'm just a pacing snob in that, like, I really am only made for like medium to fast paced thrillers. And like that's just like what keeps me engaged with it.

So I think I love that pacing, but I also love when like the author takes time with the characters too. Yeah, yeah. But there is also a part of me that likes to write humorous stuff. And a couple of the things I'm working on now, even though their kind of mysteries have a more humorous side to them. Ooh.

Yeah. So I don't know how to. that's going to work out. Yeah. It sounds fun. Leanne Moriarty, she's definitely got a humorous edge to her. Yes.

And Kate Atkinson, who's a brilliant British author, is so funny, but there's still mysteries. Yeah. I like that kind of thing, too. Yeah. I really love,

I mean, it's a specific kind of humor, but I love when there's satire, and thrillers as well. I feel like that works really well in thrillers because there's still like some crazy stuff going on, but maybe you're like poking fun at a certain kind of person or group of people. Well, I love Yellowface. I thought that was brilliant. Yes.

Yes, that was fantastic. Yeah, that one was a great example of that. And actually, Helen Laser, who narrated Yellowface narrates the night side too. Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. I was so thrilled. Yeah, so that just came out this week, right? The Nightside's audiobook came out this this week.

Yeah. She's also done the perfect family man too. So I was thrilled. Yeah, I was thrilled that she did both of them because she's a big time narrator now. That is so cool. Yeah. Yeah, for people, I know we have a lot of people who do listen to audiobooks. So some of you might even know.

I just, I'm on my Kindle or my Kindle app. on my phone all the time. So I don't necessarily know audiobook narrators as well. But I know some people do. So hopefully, hopefully they go listen to that or maybe they even know who she is, really. So you are working on some other ones, but they might be a little more funny and mysterious. I'm working on one that's actually, I don't want to say too much about it, but against the music industry because I have family connections there with it kind of features some aging rock icons. Nice. My favorite like non-thriller is Daisy Jones in the six. So you've got me interested. Yes, I love that. Oh, I loved it so much. And I don't know if you watched the TV adaptation.

Yes, I did. Such a good adaptation. Like really still stay true to the book, even though I had some changes. Yeah. I loved it. And it also introduced me back to Patty Smith because she, her song is the intro, dancing barefoot, which is great. Oh my gosh. Now I want to rewatch that. Actually, when you said Leanne Moriarty, though, her apples never fall. Just that TV show just, I think all the episodes aired on Peacock at once. Oh. I know. And I knew it was going to be coming out soon, but I think I saw yesterday that all of the episodes were out. And I was like, well, I guess I know what I'm doing this weekend. Oh, I read the book.

Yeah, I loved that book. Very good, yeah. Yeah, she has so many good books. I love her. I love her writing so much. I have too many people. Yeah. And I do have another book that I finished.

It's kind of similar to, do you know, Lucy Foley, the Garden? Yeah. Sort of along the lines of that. I again may have gone my you know it's just in a draft stage but I always go too far into the characters I'm like I've got three main characters in it and I'm going back and forth between them I'm sure there's a novel for each of them I could have written but that's funny I was just talking to someone because I'm I have like I'm writing something I'm trying to write a book I guess oh you're with it. Yeah, and I read Lisa Kron's story genius, which is like all about character development.

And I ran into the same thing where I had like, I had like 30,000 words, but like it was so much about each character. And I was like, I can't include this much information about every single character. Like, I'm going to have to slim this down. But I get it because it's like you want the characters to feel real and be real. but then you're like, okay, not everyone, not everyone wants all this information about this person. That's right. We don't need everything. Yeah.

Yeah. But I end up liking the books where the characters are developed. So at the same time, I'm like, get to know your characters. Why not? Yeah. You want to miss them when you finish reading the book. You're like, no, no, I'm not going to be hearing about this character anymore. Yeah, totally.

Totally. So I've been asking people at the end if you've read anything recently that you've loved or just anything, not even recently, just if there are any books that you've read that you just really loved. Yeah, I'm just trying to think. Well, actually, every year I try to read the Booker Prize winner and I read Prophet's song, which won the Book of Prize. That's a very unusual book because it's a totally stream of consciousness with no way. barely any punctuation in paragraphs. Wow.

But it's absolutely chilling sort of dystopian novel about how our society in the West could just sort of crumble and become, we could become like people getting on a boat to go across the, on a dinghy to go across the ocean. It's very chilling. I read that one. And I'm really a really fun book right now. sort of completely different. Tess Gerritson,

the Spy Coast, which is very entertaining. Okay. I've enjoyed that, and I'm trying to think. I reread one of my favorite books. One of my favorite writers is Sarah Waters. Yeah.

The Little Stranger. If you like, atmospheric, very scary books. That's definitely one. Ooh. I'm going to have a saddle. of these the spy co sounds amazing is that is it spies living in Maine oh my gosh I love spy thrillers so I'm adding that one to my list yeah lovely kind of conversational style it's so you know moves fast and great characters yeah I love that well where can people follow you to stay up to

date with everything. You can go to my website, www.marjorie delucah.com and they can sign up for a newsletter. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, X and Twitter. TikTok once in a while, but I just haven't really mastered it yet. I did. I'd never get any writing done. So I have put a few things on there. yeah it's only so much he can do Instagram probably is the one I sort of gravitate to yeah I feel like a lot of bookstagram or a lot of readers it's like Instagram slash bookstagram is definitely where people yeah people are great so nice and you know open to

yes reading your stuff and giving you I love it it's been so cool getting to know authors and just readers on there. I've loved it these last few years. Yeah. Well, awesome. I will include those links in the show notes, actually, so that people can stay up to date

because I'm excited for what you read next. But thank you so much for being on the podcast. And thank you. It's been a pleasure and good luck with your own writing. Thank you.