Bookwild - The Recruiter by Gregg Podolski: An Action Hero Who's Bad at Action with a Comedic Voice

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

On this episode, I talk with Gregg Podolski about his debut action thriller The Recruiter.  We discuss how his job as a recruiter inspired the story, why we both love comedy with our action thrillers, and the fun of writing an action hero who isn't good at action.The Recruiter SynopsisWhen bad guys need good help, they call Rick Carter.He's a criminal recruiter, searching for contract killers, cyber hackers, gun smugglers, and any other assorted villains-for-hire a European crime boss might need. But, when the family he left behind in New Jersey is caught up in a client's plot to monopolize the black market, Rick has to save them from two of his own top candidates: deadly assassins known only as Ghost and The Persian.Fixing his own mess will require a set of skills he doesn't have--not a problem, as finding qualified help is where he excels. But stepping into action, becoming the hero his family needs, that's new territory. For a man who's spent the last ten years being the best at helping the worst, this may be his last chance to do something right.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

The main character, Rick Carter, he was the first one there. He popped in almost kind of not fully formed because there's a version of this where he's a little different. He was a little bit more of a tough guy, you know, more sort of what you would tend to find in an action thriller. And as I wrote, I kind of realized that wasn't as much fun. I was having more fun making him an action hero who's bad at the action stuff. When I consume anything as far as entertainment, it's to be entertained. I'm really not looking for a message. I'm really not looking for a political viewpoint.

I mean, you can have those things, and it can still be entertaining when it's dark and gritty or if it has a certain political bent to it. But I just have so much more fun when there's something that makes me laugh. I mean, you need that release valve, especially in a thriller because there's some dark things in the recruiter. I had so much fun talking with Greg Podolsky about his debut action thriller, The Recruiter, which is hopefully about to be a series, the Rick Carter series. But I loved this book as much as I love talking to him about it, and it is about Rick Carter. When bad guys need good help, they call Rick Carter.

He's a criminal recruiter searching for contract killers, cyber hackers, gun smugglers, and any other assorted villains for hire, a European crime boss might meet. But when the family he left behind in New Jersey is caught up in a client's plot to monopolize the black market, Rick has to save them from two of his own top candidates. deadly assassins known only as ghost and the Persian. Fixing his own mess will require a set of skills he doesn't have. Not a problem as finding qualified help is where he excels. But stepping into action, becoming the hero his family needs, that's new territory.

For a man who spent the last 10 years being the best at helping the worst, this may be his last chance to do something right. I love the tension of this book. He, Rick, is still trying to kind of consider. himself a good guy, but he's definitely in a bad guy job and a criminal job. So the tension between that is awesome. I love the character development that you don't always get in these novels that really explains how he got to where he was. And probably my favorite is his snarky tone of voice through the whole book. It really, really, really reminded me of Deadpool,

which just made it such a fun experience to read. So I dive into all of that with Greg, and we really geek out about all kinds of action movies that we also love. So that being said, let's get into it. First, I wanted to get to know a little bit about you before we dive into your book. So when did you know that you wanted to be an author or when was your moment that was like, I think I want to write a book? I always wanted to write.

When I was a little kid, I had a short story published and highlights. magazine, if you remember. Do you remember Highlights Magazine? I don't know. Yeah. It's like the staple of every pediatrician's office everywhere, right? And that was huge when I was a kid. So I wrote a story in, I think it was in second grade. I was seven called the horse raised by wolves. And my parents submitted it to like they had like an editorial page where you could write in stories. And I got picked and published when I was the next year. So I was eight or nine. And it was cool. They did a little article on it in the paper and they read it over the intercom when I was in school and that was my first published piece and I'd always wanted to write after that never really got serious about

it until I graduated from college back in the early 2000s and then like every author wrote a couple books that didn't go anywhere and probably shouldn't have and kind of like okay I took a shot at it and I fell into my job my day job as a recruiter and really ended up liking that and I had I had two kids and two kids sort of took away any free time I had. And I also didn't have that burning desire to get out of my day job anymore. So I sort of put the writing thing aside for about seven or eight years. And then COVID hit. And we all suddenly had a lot more free time.

And I said, well, if I'm ever going to take one more shot at this, this is the time to do it. And I had the idea for this book about a recruiter, but a recruiter for criminals that was sort of knocking around my head for a few years. and I said, well, let me just write it. And I did in that last Hail Mary paid off. So it was kind of cool. I mean, of all the things that come out of COVID that were horrible, you do hear a lot of creatives, you know, had time to finally do things. So there's a silver lining to that.

It is that we got some, you know, maybe some work that we wouldn't have got otherwise. Yeah, I have heard people talk about that in more creative fields where obviously it is really sad that like some people did. some people lost their lives or have long-term complications as well. But it was people who maybe, like you're saying, didn't have the time otherwise, were kind of like, huh, what is something I'm kind of interested in that I can try out? That part was definitely cool. Yeah, you got to look for the good things when you get something like that. And I guess that would be one of them that came out of it.

Yes. Yeah. So how did your writing process develop as you wrote that book? Like, do you plot? Are you a pantser? I think I'm a hybrid. I've been asked that a few times. So I don't really plot, but I also have my phone is full of notes.

And it's sometimes just like a line of dialogue or sometimes it's a scene or just an idea. And so I kind of have the story beats on my phone. And then it's from getting from beat to beat is kind of where I pants. That's where things just sort of happen as I write. And then sometimes I get to a beat and that beat doesn't work anymore. And it's like, okay, well, I got to get rid of that. but so that it's sort of that combo um i don't think i could ever really do a full outline i hated outlining when i was a kid like in your teacher in english made you write the outline first i always

hated that but i also don't know that i could just sit down and write with no idea of where any of it's going i think i kind of need to at least have some land like guidelines you know um at least for these for this one that's how that worked anyway yeah i've i just read so many books in june that were july releases that were so good. So I've been interviewing a lot of people this week. And it's been super common that people do a more hybrid approach. I feel like I'm getting that answer more often, which I kind of think in a sense. So it's kind of interesting seeing like some people, some people are like I have to write the

whole outline, but I've been getting more people saying kind of the version. There's thriller authors I've heard that write like 30,000 word outlines. I don't have the time for that. I couldn't even think about doing that. No. No, I have a few notes on my phone. I hope that God my phone never crashes and I never leave it anywhere because there's entire novels planned out there that I would now be out of.

So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people about their phones, especially writers. Just in general, people about their phones. My 17-year-old daughter would be lost without hers. Yeah. So, yeah. Definitely.

Just like all she's known. So this one, what I thought was cool is it is pretty character driven, even though it is an action thriller. So how did you approach getting to know your characters? So the main character, Rick Carter, he was the first one there. He popped in almost kind of not fully formed because there's a version of this where he's a little different. He was a little bit more of a tough guy, you know, more sort of what you would tend to find in an action thriller. And as I wrote, I kind of realized that wasn't as much fun. I was having more fun making him an action hero who's bad at the action stuff.

I really enjoyed leaning into that because that would be me if I was in these situations and it's written in first person. So it was kind of fun to put him in situations where he didn't always know what he was doing and he didn't always do the right move. So I kind of had to go back and change the beginning part. And actually the first 70 pages didn't work anymore. So I had to totally get rid of those. but he came in and then everything sort of flowed from that world and who would be fun to have him interact with and you know if there was a villain the villain kind of also had to have fit into that sort of funny but still dangerous world that I was sort of crafting so all the characters are sort of born from

the way he set the table as a character and you know very much an action thriller but a lot of humor like I've been on a Beverly Hills cop movie. Do you last Beverly Hills Cop movies, Eddie Murphy? The new one just came out on Netflix. It's good. It's way better than the third one, which isn't a high bar to clear, but it's certainly, it's good. It's fun. And I just love the vibe of those movies. I'm a big Shane Black fan. So lethal weapon, kiss, kiss, bang, bang, the nice guys. Like, I wouldn't call any of them comedies. They're definitely action thriller. But they got a lot of humor. And that was sort of, that was kind of the requirement for the characters that they wanted to come play in that. sandbox, they had to fit in there that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In my review, I talked about it. It also reminded me of Deadpool. I love it. Thank you so much for that. Anytime you drop a Deadpool reference, you're on my good side. So plus, are you wearing a Beach Boy shirt, by the way? Because I've seen that. I love it. I was so hoping you were going to rock that because I rock the pink power on my shirt, too. And I was hoping we would match. And you wouldn't go to show up like in black because it was the

recruiter. I know. It's, yeah. No, no, I love that shirt. I'm so happy you wore that. Yeah. Yeah, it was when I was reading it, because I, similarly, I love when comedy is blended with action. Like, it just makes it so much more fun, especially just because it kind of, I mean, it's like the foil character too, though. Like it, it keeps it from being so serious all the time or too heavy sometimes too. And literally when we, I, sorry, right after I wrote the review for your book, we went and saw, oh, we went and saw the new bad guys. movie. Bad boys? Yeah. And that was the first time we saw. There's like a, there's like a little trailer they're doing for Wolverine and Deadpool that's like not a trailer. It's kind of like they like, it's a. Oh, I saw that. It's genius. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. So you've seen that. Yeah. So we saw that. And I was like, turning to my husband. I was like, I didn't go to book review that mentioned Deadpool. This is so cool. And he's like, what do you stop talking? Like what are you? I can hear you. Wolverine is asking you to be quiet. Right.

he's like you're missing the point of it but i was like that is so cool i was like i just wrote about it so i can't wait to see that one too i just i just love when people sneak comedy into action as well so when i consume anything as far as entertainment it's it's it's to be entertained i'm really not looking for a message i'm really not looking for a political viewpoint i mean you can have those things and they can still be entertaining when it's dark and gritty or if it has a certain you know political bent to it. But I just have so much more fun when there's something that makes me laugh. I mean, you need that release valve, especially in a thriller, because there's some dark things in the recruiter. Like, there's some places it goes to. And I had to be very careful not to sort of minimize

what I was talking about. Like human trafficking is an element of the plot, but I didn't want to make that central because I didn't want to go. Because in order to treat that the right way, you have to be serious. You can't make a joke around that. So I was very careful to keep that on the margins so that I keep the humor without feeling like I was trivializing that. But you do. You need that release where you kind of go, oh, okay, I can take a breath right here and it's okay to laugh and have fun, you know? Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to your point, like, he is kind of, like, he's not, he's not someone who participates in action. Not willingly. So, like, yeah, that's kind of like almost inherent to the humor of it all is like, he's kind of like the bumbling idiot when it comes to that stuff. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. So it sounds like you are an action fan and movies and everything. Is that kind of what drew you to writing an action? Yeah, it's funny. The first couple books I wrote, I was talking about this with somebody else. Like I think all authors go through a phase where they just sort of ape authors that they like. And you sort of almost try to copy that voice.

And you end up producing like dollar store versions of that, which nobody is never really any good. But that's how you find your own voice. So the first couple of books, I wrote. One was thriller-esque, but it definitely had more like John Steinbeck leanings to it, like kind of talking about America. And then there was a horror one, and then there was one that was straight up like speculative fiction. I never really wrote action because I never really read it. I liked watching it. But when I read, I would read Stephen King. I would read John Grisham. I would read. The closest was probably Elmore Leonard to action. And he's not really action,

you know. He's got action beat. Yeah, it's more thriller. right he's more sort of like that crime true crime um and then when i started writing this story i'm like well this is an action thriller so let me write and i found that it came so much easier and everything just flowed more smoothly in my voice and i wasn't for the first time i wasn't like copying somebody else probably because i never really read in that genre so i had nobody to copy um but it came very natural and it was so much fun it was the most fun i've had writing any of the stuff that i've written Yeah. Yeah.

That's cool. Just kind of like finding your natural. Yeah. Yeah. After veering all over the road, yeah, I finally settled into where I should be. You got there. Yeah. So you mentioned your recruiter yourself.

No, please don't anybody call the cops on my employer. They would not condone anything that Rick does. Yeah. Yeah. But was that some of the inspiration for the book or where did the inspiration? So it's a lot of like write what you know, right? And I had been doing that for, like I said, about seven or eight years when I got the idea. I actually wrote the first couple pages of this, maybe about six years ago.

And then it's kind of sat because I didn't have the time. My son was little. And maybe even longer at this point. But anyway, I had sort of thought, well, let me write a story about a recruiter because you don't really see them in popular fiction. Joe Nesbo wrote a book called Headhunters. But even in that book, the profession is. sort of, he doesn't have to be a recruiter to make that book work, right? Like, he could kind of be anything. He just happened to pick recruiter. But after that, you really didn't see it anywhere. And I was

like, well, this is sort of a gap in the market. And I know I'd love to read a book about my job. But I also didn't want to just write a John Grishman book with recruiters instead of lawyers. Like, I didn't want to do a good lawyer who got stuck in a bad situation. I felt that had kind of been done. So I was thinking of how I could make it different. And I came up with the idea of, you know, what would it be like if there was a guy who did what I did, but he did it for criminals. And that character has appeared in a lot of movies. Like, there's a horrible but great movie called The Expendables Three. Do you ever watch anything in that franchise?

Yeah. I feel like we saw it. The third one? You need to get your money back if you saw that one in theaters. So the third one is the one, it's the one with Stallone and all the old action stars. And they kind of get together as like a mercenary group. Okay. So the third one has a character in it that's,

played by Kelsey Grammer. And he kind of sort of is what Rick is in that they, Stallone goes to him to help him find members for his team. And he sort of presents them the way I present candidates to my clients. And I always liked that. But again, he's sort of a good guy because Stallone's team is mercenaries, but they go after bad guys. And so he was helping him find other good guys.

I'm like, well, let me do that little different and let me do it with a character who, you know, helps find criminals for other criminals. and in any other thriller, that character's may be in there for a scene or two, right? Like, he's sort of the guy the main character finds and beats up to get information and then he's done. So I really wanted to see if I can structure a whole book around kind of a throwaway character and then make him really bad at the action stuff and put him in an action story on top of it. That was fun. That was a challenge. The more I thought about, like, this could really be a lot of fun and it was to write.

Hopefully it's as much fun to read, but it was a lot of fun to write. Thank you. It was. the synopsis was so exciting to me because of what you're saying like it's we don't spend that much time with that character typically the closest thing I could think of because it's what it um kind of like got me excited or interested in reading it is I also love shows or movies with like fixers so like uh I was just going to say right on to them type stuff yeah and I just saw I can't remember what it's called but it looks like there's one coming out with George Clooney

Yeah, it's Wolfs on Apple TVs. Yeah. Apple Plus. Yeah. It looks so good. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

I know. I just saw that trailer and I was like, oh my gosh. Because I just, it's always so fascinating. That character is always interesting. And it just lends itself well to action because they're dealing with like people who need to cover stuff up most of the time. And that was important to me. Like I wanted him, like you said the bumbling idiot in the action scenes. I needed him to also be able to own a certain.

situation or else no one's going to follow an idiot the entire time of it unless it's a comedy, right? And it was not going to be a comedy. Yeah. So I needed to make him really good when he was in his element, which was working with candidates, working with clients, kind of in an interview situation and in a negotiation. He's really slick and he's really cool when he knows what he's doing. But when he's out of his element, that's when you really can have a lot of fun with him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of that, his, his planning kind of being his or orchestrated being the thing that he was good at. I loved this moment when Rick was trying to come up with a plan

and he's thinking about it and he says, I had a rough outline of a spy thriller that would feel quite comfortable nestled on a shelf at any airport Hudson News. But in terms of actionable, usable strategy, it was as unrealistic as the plot in those same thrillers. And I loved that so much because I also just really love meta-comedy. So did you just like, did you feel like that? Anytime I feel brilliant, my wife is right there to remind me that I'm not.

No, that was like a sales pitch for Hudson News, probably. I'll throw Hudson News in there and maybe they'll carry it. No, it was basically just him. It was a way to show that he doesn't know what he's doing. And again, I would feel like that would be me. If I had to come up with something, I would draw on books I'd read, not things I've done, because I haven't done anything like he needs to do in this situation. So he comes up with things that are kind of outland.

And then when he step back and look at him from 30,000 feet, it's like, oh, it's the Michael Bay movie. Awesome. This will work. This will be fine. Right. Yes. Exactly.

I hope you're enjoying this episode of Book Wild. And if you are, could I ask you a favor? Could you go and rate and review this podcast and whatever platform you're listening? Ratings and reviews make the biggest difference in discoverability of the podcast. And I definitely want to find all of our fellow thriller readers out there. So if you could go rate the podcast and leave a short review, that would make a huge difference. Thank you. And let's get back to the show. Another thing that I loved about it, though, is even though it does have the Michael Bay type action in it, there is a lot more character

development than you normally get in a movie or a book like that. So how did you approach, like, making Rick's backstory and kind of making him still like an empathetic character? So I always knew, I have a lot of ideas for where this character is going to go. But I knew the first book, The Stakes had to be very personal. And I wanted them to be very small. Like there's an element of this book that deals with some smuggled material that could get in the wrong hands and do some real damage, like city level type damage. And I had been asked by my agent and I think my editor might have brought it up to. You know, could we expand on that?

And I never really wanted to make that the focus. I didn't want the focus to be Rick has to save the world. I wanted it to be very much Rick has to save this tight group of people he cares about. and that's all he cares about. So it was very much, it was always going to be his family, was going to come into it in some way. And I also knew that by the end of the book,

he needed to sort of have the arc where he started off as a guy who you would never think would be doing the things he's doing for a living. And then not very happy with himself about that, not really loving who he's become. And by the end of the book, not totally over that,

but sort of making some people, piece with it, right? And so that was always going to be a big part of the story. And you can't tell that story unless you delve into character. And it's also the first book stuff where a lot of authors, they put their own life in the first book. So his family, while not exact doppelgangers for my family, like when I would write the scene, I would think of my daughter or my son and my wife. And that sort of helps make the emotions, I think, a little more honest when you're kind of thinking about them that way, even though they're different names and slightly different personality traits. Yeah. And I feel like because it's going to be a C. Ideally, yeah, Blackstone's got the second book.

They're just waiting to see how this one does. But I would love to keep this like as a book a year kind of thing. And as long as people want to read it, I want to write them. So yeah. Yeah. So it's it were for a first book, that's kind of a cool part is like it did focus on. It is kind of like focused on his origin story too. And so you are getting to know like the people he left behind. Like you're getting to know those kinds of things. So it also kind of makes sense for a first book. Yeah, I wanted to tell the origin story without making it an origin story. That's why it picks up 10 years after he sort of got into this life.

And then you sort of get flashbacks of what he was before and kind of hints of how he did it. There's a book down the road that I would do that in my head is like a true prequel where you see that happen. Oh, yeah. But I didn't want to jump in with that. I wanted to have the world and the character. established before we went backwards. Yeah, that makes sense. So there's tons of action scenes.

It is an action thriller. And one of the kind of cool things for everyone listening was the way I heard about your book was during a Thriller Fest recap with Lori Brand and Olivia Day Wallace. So that's another episode of people want to listen to it. Lori's awesome, by the way. Lori was talking about. I met her at Thriller Fest. She came up and I didn't realize until I connected with her on Instagram that she's also like completely badass bodybuilder who would destroy me in a fight.

Like she is no joke. And I just think she's fantastic. I love following her. I love the interview you did with her. She was great. Yeah. Yes. She's so personal.

She was so easy to talk to too on top of all of it. but she was saying her favorite panel that she went to was one about writing action scenes where you and someone else actually kind of like acted out a scene and so then that made me interested in your book and I requested on that galley and I got it and I was like well this is a cool through line the way everything kind of came together but how do you approach writing action scenes do you act them out no it was it was funny one of the guys who acted that out was a stunt Man and he's got a book on submission. Yeah, that's what it was.

Kind of like Fall Guy-esque, where the stuntman is the main character and you love that movie. Oh, so good. Yes. That, like, that tone is exactly what I was hoping to go for with the recruiter. Like, that was, it nailed it. But he said he blocks out scenes and Yasminango, who provided a blurb for my book and has done an excellent, the Nina Knight trilogy. She said she's blocked things out, like, in her office. for me it's all in my head it's more somebody i can't remember who it was but described writing a book

is watching a movie in your head and just writing down what you see and then every time you hit a stopping point you just hit and pause on the movie and then when you come back in you hit unpause and you start typing again that's the closest i've ever come to hearing anything that describes how i write um so it's all mental and i just kind of see it and then when i look at it on paper i'll look at it and go all right well maybe that doesn't make a lot of sense and even in that fight scene it was a good lesson because when they were acting out one part, they acted a different way than was written. And it was like, ooh, I thought I was clear there, but apparently not because I was reading it to them and they did something different. So it doesn't always translate, but that's, I don't block

anything. I don't stand up and, you know, have somebody come in. And it's definitely all watching the movie in my head and then writing down what I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, Yasmin was one of the first interviews I did when her first in the night one came out years ago. And I was cracking up just because she was saying that. Like she literally is like moving around her office and her family's like walking by like, like what are you doing? I thought you were writing. And she's this petite, tiny, sweet little person and I picture you're doing like Ethan Hunt moves in her office.

Right. Like, yeah. Yes. I know. I was so surprised by that answer. I think it was what I even pulled for the teaser because I was like this is just too good. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love her.

And I actually, I'm excited. I just got, she wrote, I think it's like kind of a domestic Yeah, she did a pivot. Or it's just like more. Yeah. Yeah. And it was an Amazon first reads pick. So if anyone has,

Not what she seemed? If you're a prime reader, you can pick it for free. The digital. Is it not what she seemed? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds really cool, and she's a fantastic writer and a better person. So definitely recommend anybody check that out. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to read it. I snagged it when I saw it came through as a first pick, basically.

So one of the chapters at the beginning ends with Rick saying there were no good people in this business, but I want to be the first. So how did you approach balancing that tension of him, like, being a recruiter for like bad, tasks, but still being a good person, like at the end of the day that we were rooting. Yeah, it was actually, that line was a reason given to me by a very prominent, very nice agent that I pitched to at pitch fest for Thriller Fest, back when it was all still remote, and we were doing it over to Zoom. He requested the pages, the full manuscript, and I actually already had an offer pending from my current agent, and so he agreed to read it very quickly. And he came back and he was like, that line is the reason I don't think I could rep this because there aren't any good people in this book.

And he was one of the ones who wanted me to do it like a John Grisham book. He was like, can't we make him like Mitch McDeer from the firm or he's a good recruiter and he gets sucked in? I'm like, no, that's not. The point is he's a good guy who got into his situation because he made some really poor choices for good reasons. Like his intentions for doing it were all the kind of things that we could all empathize with. But they were completely bad choices. And I feel like that happens so much more than a good person getting stuck into a bad situation through no fault of their own. Like that makes for good stories, but it also isn't very realistic.

And not that a lot of this, like this is definitely a hyper-reality book, right? Like that's the fun of it. You don't want to make it super realistic. But to empathize with him, I felt more people could relate to a guy who just made a couple really. bad choices and it spiraled way out of his control and now he's sort of stuck. And he also happens to be really good at the bad choices that he made. And it's more interesting to me to have a guy who at his heart is a good person that doesn't want to do those things, but is also really good at him. And because that was the other thing with the breaking battle with Walter White, he ends up loving

like he loves becoming Heisenberg, right? Like that's, you get the sense that's who he was always meant to be whereas in Rick's case he doesn't really want to be what he's become he would love nothing more than to go back to what he was but he can't he's too deep now and that's where i think and then also making him funny when somebody's funny good or bad you relate to him that's why the villains and movies that are funny people love them like Nicholson and batman right like it's just if you're funny people like you so it was very crucial he had a sense of humor and it was very crucial that he got into this for a way in a way that a lot of people I felt could go okay yeah I could see myself doing something similar and then how would I handle that you know yeah yeah it is what I loved

about breaking bad because it's like especially when you're in the early seasons he's not he hasn't completely broke bad it's just like a little bit but the way that you like go through the journey with him you do you totally understand why he did what he did and then you kind of get to the where he's to the point of no return and is like, oh, I actually. Yeah, and he loves it. Like, he totally embraces it. Yeah. Whereas Rick is constantly fighting against who he's become, but also has to be good at it or

else the people he works for no longer have a use for him. So if he stops being good at what he does or tries to get away, he's dead and he doesn't really like that option. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And without giving away any spoilers, it's like you did. There is a reason, like you're saying,

for what he did. And it's like, I think everyone can identify with like when you're in a more desperate moment, like you're kind of willing to do things you're not normally willing to do. And then sometimes, like in this case, then it kind of gets away from you. And like you're saying, then you're just stuck kind of. There's a book that I blurbed. Also came out from Blackstone. The author, M.M. DeWill is a filmmaker from South Africa.

And he, it's his first novel. And he and I share an age. agent and I was asked to blurb it. And the whole book is about that. It's about a woman who is sort of in the most desperate situation anybody could imagine and is presented with this opportunity that requires her to do something pretty horrible. And she takes it. And then it's the fallout of that. And it's such a relatable situation for so many people that you have to justify in your head doing something that you know is wrong, but for the right reasons. And then it's very rare that somebody who is not used to making those kind of decisions and being in that world

can sort of hold on to that and keep their arms around it. Usually you make that choice and it completely goes out of control and now you're stuck sort of trying to keep your head above water. And that's where we find Rick at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? It's called the helper. The helper.

Yeah. It came out last month. It's very, it's written in a very sort of almost like fever dream kind of prose. It's a very unique take on that story. the way it's written. It's, it's, yeah, it's hard to describe how he wrote it is very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

Well, I've been asking people at the end, you've kind of answered it, if they've read any books that they've loved recently. So has there been anything else you've read that captured your attention? So I just started reading about halfway through a book called the Second Life of Nick Mason by Steve Hamilton. It's an older book. It came out in 2016. and the third one of that,

which was long delayed, is going to be coming out in August called an Honorable Assassin from Blackstone, my publisher. And I liked the idea of this book. It was actually one I had comped to, even though I'd never read it, what I was sending out my own queries

because I heard the synopsis, and I knew Steve Hamilton's writing style. But it's about a guy who is sent away to prison, and again, legitimately, he was guilty of what he did. And he was got 25, 25 years and he had a wife and a little girl and he gets an opportunity to get out after only five years but he basically is owned by this criminal mastermind who's in prison and is still sort of

running his empire from behind bars and Nick becomes sort of his hitman muscle guy on the street and whenever this phone rings he has to answer it and do whatever he's told to do and even though he's a criminal he's not like a killer and it's about him bound to balancing. I said yes to this so I could see my wife and kid who have since moved on, but also I might be out of prison. But I'm also still sort of stuck in a kind of prison because this guy can call me anytime and tell me what to do. And it's a fast read and it's a great concept. I'm loving it. I'm about three quarters of the way through and it's really good. Yeah. Nice. It kind of reminds me. It's not the same thing, but the night agent. Oh, Matthew Quirk. The one that's on Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How like, really just the part where it's like he just has to be pulled into something he wasn't expecting. But I, yeah, we blew through that when it's everybody did. That's like, I think that's the second season coming out, right? I want to say. Yeah. I think so. That was one of the top ones. I think that's what I saw. I haven't watched that one yet. That's on my list. Among many others. Oh, it's so good. Obviously, I just, I just love action. And I love that you love action. because, yeah, I mean, when I first, when you requested me, I was kind of looking at some of your recent ones. Like, gosh, she's more of like sort of the domestic thriller. But then you interviewed Rob Hart.

And you clearly knew what you're talking about. I'm like, oh, we're good. I'll be in good hands. We'll be all right. Yeah, it's one of those things. Like, I definitely love both. And I read, what was the other one that I read here? The man who saw seconds was Alexander Bolizari was really good. Sometimes it's like, And then I just read one that, because I'm about to interview them, it doesn't come out until September 1st, I think is the release date. But Isabella, Maldonado and Jeff and Deaver. Oh my gosh. It's called fatal intrusion. It was fantastic.

So it's one of those things where like I definitely love like the domestic suspense and just suspense thriller in general. But when I can find like an action one that has some like character work in it too, I. Oh, I just love it. Two things. Isabella was on the panel on Thriller Fest, and she's such a great person and so funny and so talented. And she was talking about that book, so I cannot wait for that to blow up for her. Yeah. And just the concept of it sounded really cool.

And then my wife, when we first started dating back in the late 90s, she was kind of like a chick flicky kind of. That was like her genre. and then she started watching some of the action movies with me and she is a full-blown action movie officiato now. Like she knows the Marvel movies better than I do. She can like quote like she's Marvel Wikipedia. That to me is like one of the biggest things

that a feather in my cap as a husband that I was able to convert her to the action side. I love it. Yeah, she won't even think about watching like a Sandra Bullock movie now that's like Hope floats or something. Like, no, no, no, no. let me get something with you know harris supported it please that'd be great yeah yeah i it's just my thing is like especially with thrillers i think the reason i love the genre as a whole is the pacing and that like stuff is

always happening so i think that's where like action is so and that was crucial for me for this one is my favorite movie of all time is raiders the lost arc and one of the reason i love it is it's there's not an ounce of fat on that movie it's so perfectly paced every beat matters everything that happens it happens There's no filler. And I really wanted to make this book kind of flow that way. And I think you mentioned it in a review and a couple other people on their earlier reviews have mentioned how fast pace it is. And that was, I wanted to nail that.

I didn't want anybody to feel like I can skip this chapter and I won't miss anything, you know. Yes. Yeah. You did. It comes out just screaming. You're like, okay, we're right in it. Thank you.

You're welcome. Where should people follow you to stay up to date? because I hope there's going to be lots. Me too. It all depend on what the readers say. If they wanted, I'm sure Blackstone will put more out. My website, Greg Podolsky. And the ending set it up so perfectly.

The ending set it up. Yeah, and that was really important to me. Speaking to Marvel, that was sort of my end credit stinger. Like I didn't want to end on a true cliffhanger. Like, I know people hate that. I wanted the main story to be wrapped up, but then also to sort of set up the next one, right? And I was really worried they weren't going to let me do it.

it but they were fully on board with that like no we love that um that that was how i described it to my friend who doesn't read action thriller so i spoiled it for him i was like i was like the coolest part is like said that almost word for word i was like everything that matters gets answered for the story that you're in i was like and then i read the epilogue and i was like oh my gosh this gave gives new context to everything that happened and it makes me want to read the next one yes all right mission accomplished yeah um but now you can find my website greg peddle I'm on Twitter at bits of nonsense, which is something I came up with a long time ago, and I figured I just going to keep it. I liked it because that's basically what Twitter is.

It's a lot of bits of nonsense. And at Greg Podolsky on Instagram. And I'm trying to be so much better on social media because I was never really a big social media guy. But I found that if I just post a book thing and then something goofy that I like or something fun, people sort of respond to that. But yeah, I'd love to hear from anybody. And, you know, any and all reviews, good or bad are always appreciated. Because art's very subjective.

You either like something or you don't. It doesn't make it good or bad, right? So I understand some people that are like, this is garbage. And they write a one-star review. I'm like, thanks for reading. Appreciate it. You know, just like the five stars. You picked it up and you read it.

That's a chunk of time you dedicated to me. If you didn't like it, I still appreciate the effort, you know. Yeah. That's awesome. That's a good perspective. You have to. Otherwise, this business will beat you up. You have to have that.

Yeah, totally. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes for everyone so they can keep up with everything. And thank you so much for- Thanks for having me. This was a ton of fun. And I'm definitely going to continue following you. You do a great job. I love your interview style and you bring in really interesting guests.

So I'm happy to be a part of it. Thank you so much.