Bookwild - The Role of Subconscious in Writing, Milling for Empathy, and Craft Tactics with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

This week, Halley Sutton is back and we delve into character development, the subconscious influences on storytelling, and the darker themes that often emerge in our work. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Is that how we started the episode? I hadn't pressed record yet, but now I wish that's how we started that episode. Oh, now I've screwed us all up. No, you haven't. Never. I don't think we could screw ourselves up enough in a podcast. Like, there's just always plenty to talk about. That's true.

That's true. I was like, Kate, let's not court fate. Now I just can't stop talking. I'm sorry. You're doing an intro. That's the whole purpose of a podcast. And honestly, like, at this point, even if you're a new person like the title says who's here so it's it's not super super important but

i am with hallie sutton who's just feeling yappy today which is good because we're on a podcast that sometimes that happens like especially too with um when i'm doing like author interviews like about their book and they'll be like i'm sorry i've been monologuing and i'm like i am literally here to ask you questions right now like this is what i need you to do i get that i in my day job I have to interview people sometimes and they have the same reaction. I'm like, no, no, you don't understand how easy you're making my job when you just go, you know. Yes, compared to someone who's like, I don't know, the idea just came to me. Right. And then they just blink and you're like, oh, that's it. Okay. You're like, really? Somehow I've only had like two or three of those in all of the

episodes, so I consider myself lucky, but you're always like, oh, I need my next question already. I know. Whereas like I feel like somebody asked me like, how'd you get this idea for this book? And I'm like, so I was born in 1988. You know, let me take you all the way back. Yes. Well, kind of related to that, last night I went to Chicago slash Naperville to Anderson's Bookshop to see Ashley Winstead on her, this book will bury me tour. And I was actually just trying to edit a recap before we recorded. And I thought she had this beautiful, like right when she like starts talking, she like shares the personal motivation for her book. If anyone doesn't know, her dad passed. She got really into the Idaho cases. She got really into true crime. And then she was like, oh, is there a reason?

I'm really getting into true crime right now. So that's like the gist of why it's personal because then it's a bad. out a girl Jane Way in her 20s who loses her dad suddenly and gets obsessed with true crime. So that's why it's such a personal story. But she did this like really great explanation about like all kinds and parts of the book. And I was just like holding my little camera. Just like just get the intro at least. I'm like trying like not to shake the whole time.

And I just thought it was so thorough. And then like at the end she's like, but I'm going to stop monologuing. And like, you could tell that everyone was like, but we're here to listen to you. I know. And she's so brilliant. So first of all, like, I'm sure most people listening to know this, but she has a PhD. So she's like Dr. Ashley Winston. And like she has such a thoughtful yet accessible way of talking about like really what she's doing formally in her books and like what her interests are and the question she's asking.

And it is a master class to behold. I feel like every time you hear her speak about her work or anybody else's work, you're just, I'm just like, talk to me forever. Like, I get smarter just by osmosis. It's amazing. I know. I am jealous of the amount because her, like, PhD is in like, is it American literature? I almost think it might be British literature. But it could be wrong. It's some kind of literature. Basically, it's something in literature. And I mean, I know you read your fair share of like boring books in that as well. But I'm like, sometimes I'm like, that would be so cool to. have spent that much time just like getting to like soak up literature. Totally. Totally. Totally.

And you see it in the way that it like, you know, she's writing books that are so entertainment driven, but are also so deep and thoughtful. And whenever I hear her talk about them, it always is a good reminder for me to like pay more attention to some of the craft work and like, you know, really like look for the deeper things that authors are doing because like, especially with the genres that I think we like to read so much of it is like, how do I feel? Am I enjoying the story? And then also like, what are the craft pieces here too? Totally. Yeah. I love that. Well, a couple of the things. She was there in conversation with Lane Fargo, which everyone knows how much we love both of them by now,

I would think. And so they were obviously talking about their writing processes and a couple of things stuck up to me. So I was like we could technically talk about it on this writing episode. Something that I thought was really interesting was Lane was talking about how I can't remember who she said. Oh no. Lane was talking about it. And then Ashley said the Amy Jen. entry said this. Another brilliantly smart human and writer, like truly. Yeah. And as we know, especially if anyone listened to the favorites episode with Lane here, she loves research and even has a degree in library sciences.

Is that what she said to? She does. And she was a dramaturg. And so that's like the person who like reads, I think I have this right. That's the person who reads a script that a theater production is putting on and like looks for, I think it's like you're kind of like matching almost like this was written in the 1500s like what are the references to? It's like basically like you're doing the research of the play itself to help people understand

the context of the play and like the history of it to make it more authentic. Yeah. Of course she is. Did I look that up or am I going with what I think I remember a dramaturgist? It's the first one. It's the latter. It's the latter. Yeah, exactly.

That's awesome. But she was saying last night, and I think she might have said it in that episode, too. They're like, she could just research for forever. It's like totally her favorite part. And then writing is so much harder for her to do. But that was when Ashley said that Amy Gentry said. We've got a she said, she said. Amy feels like her research brain and her writing brain are like two different things entirely.

And so when she's doing the research or like even just the outlining, it's like very like focused and linear and like working through the things that matter. But then when she starts writing, even if she has an outline, it's like such a different. brain and it's like the creativity opens up and sometimes you surprise yourself and I really resonated with that because I have had like both of those experiences where like I don't feel like I can go in completely off of vibes I like need I need something like I needed some kind of structure to even like conceive of like how could I write a book and coincidentally since we just are here talking about Ashley. She was my first interview ever.

I know. It's kind of cool the way it's like just played out over the years. But she was the one who introduced me to Story Genius because I was like asking how she does that. And so then I read Story Genius and Save the Cat writes a novel. And then that gave me enough structure that I was like, oh, okay. I like, it was the first time I was like, oh, that's how you write a novel. It's not like you just like have to have all of this like creative inspiration that just like bubbles out of you and whatever. So the little bit of structure did help me. But then I ended up running into like I was trying to

make sure I wrote every single scene. And when I stopped doing that, it was like some of those fun things that happened when you're just in your creative brain in writing. There were times where I was like, oh, I didn't even know I was kind of putting that back there because it would like make this moment better too. So I don't know if you experience any of that as well, but it is kind of cool how like when you're just like actively in the writing part, sometimes even with a structure, your brain like surprises you. Oh, yeah. That is like one of my favorite. Like to me that feels like the true magic moments of writing when like. so I feel like we you touched on a lot of different topics and I think there's a lot of things

we can go into there like the researching versus the writing brain like when and also like I think a question that I've had people ask before is like when do you stop researching and when do you start writing and I think that's like something we can talk about too and then because I'm curious about your thought because mine is just like a chaos goblin answer but and then I also like summarizing versus dramatizing scenes like when do you dramatize a scene when do you write something in summary and then also like yeah those magic moments i totally do identify with that i'm somebody who i think i've said this before and i keep saying it and it is an unfortunate reality which is that i am not a quote unquote

plotter i am a quote pancer meaning that i don't really now to be fair i'm not a true pancer and that i don't, I have some idea of where I think I want things to go. I'm not just like, I have a character in a room and we're going to see what happens. I'm like, I think I know we're headed towards this event. I don't know how we're going to get there and it might really change along the way. But I have a destination I think I'm driving to. I just don't have a roadmap. Yeah. But it is an amazing thing. And I, I'm curious about this. Like I don't really know psychologically what it is except maybe we've even justed so much story. But like when you feel so sure that there's a piece,

this has happened to me so many times and I think it's my favorite part of writing, you feel so sure that something belongs in your book or you're really attached to something and you don't know why. And then you figure out why, like six months after you thought of the thing. And I don't know if that's your brain finally finding

an answer and rationalizing that. I don't know if it's that it was there all along and you didn't realize, you know, but it truly feels like a magic moment when you're sort of like, oh that's why I did that. Like it is such a weird feeling that like it feels like your subconscious and I mean I think this is true right.

Your subconscious is smarter than we realize and it's like maybe doing things on more levels than we like fully recognize. But yeah, like talking about Ashley Winstead's points of like my father, her father passed and she's dealing with all this grief and then she's also drawn to true crime and being like, oh, I understand that there's a connection here maybe and like I don't know what the connection is for her, I could speculate. But like, yeah, what are, are there any moments that you feel like you could share that where that's like happened to you before, like in your writing as you go along?

I was trying to think. So what there was, okay, I feel like I'm sure this doesn't like give anything away, does it? That's also the question. That's what I can't tell on this one. So I'll just say it then I guess. So I have a character who is like essentially a Nepo baby, really. But both of her parents are super successful. Her mom was like a super successful model.

And then obviously she aged out as our world likes to do to women. And so then she was like, so what am I going to do? do next and so then she gets really obsessed with a reality show or having a reality show and she does realize it um and so there was this moment um okay i'm trying it's literally like trying to remember how all of the threads came together but um in a scene that i wrote when the the the mom and dad and like the daughter is like probably like six years old or something at this at this age um she uh okay i'm just i'm just gonna say you also we can we can we can it doesn't matter because i might change this guy's name but like i definitely was channeling bravo vibes i don't know if i'm

sold on this or not but i named the like head of this uh the this i got home at 2 a.m. from Chicago last night, guys, it's probably going to be like this all the way through. The production head or whatever of Chow is what I, chow is what I have it called. I don't know that that's what I have it, but maybe it is. It's a good name. I named him Dandy Hoken. And I can't tell if it's too on the nose and too campy, but for now it cracks my shit up. and so I named him Dandy Hoken.

For anyone who doesn't watch Bravo, Andy Cohen is like the mastermind behind it all. He's who you see on the reunions and at New Year's with Anderson Cooper. Yeah. Where they're getting lit. I love it. I know. I'm cracking me up.

So they're at dinner or whatever, and they're just talking about like what would be plot points for the show and stuff. And so he's even trying to like kind of connect with. Kaya, who is the daughter who's young. And he's kind of like, what do you like to do? And she was like, I love when we build sandcastles is like what she tells him. And so then later, of course, in the reality show, they go on a vacation at some point. And so then like they're there and the, her nanny is not on camera. She's like back in a bungalow or something.

And so they're like trying to film some stuff. And one of the producers comes up to Kai's mom's name is Blythe. So Blythe is just like sunbathing, just chilling while like Kaya just like tries to entertain herself. And one of the producers is like, hey, Dandy said, you guys should build the sandcastles. and basically then Kaya has a meltdown because her mom doesn't know how to do it. And when she said her favorite thing to do was like we make sandcastles, it was with her nanny, not her mom. And so then like when they were on the beach, that just like came to me as I was writing it. And I was like, oh, I was like, so that was what I think that might have been my first experience of being like, so did my brain kind of know?

because it's like if you watch reality TV, you know they go on vacations often. So it's like, was there a reason? My brain was like, I like when we make sandcastles and she kept it vague and then they're there. And I'm like, oh, here's a good way to show that like Blythe doesn't do stuff with her. And her nanny is the safe person. So I think that was the first time it happened for me. That's a perfect example.

And it's such a good example in your book too because that's like such a thing that like, of course they would assume she's talking about with her mom and like you're a kid and that's thing and it's actually like how dark is it that her best memory of childhood is with her nanny that that's like this thing that's beautiful well done your brain thank you and then i mean then her mom after she has this fit drags her away and tells her like you do not talk about her on camera and she tells her like you know how she doesn't want to be on camera if you talk about her on camera, then we're, then she'll have to leave and it'll be your fault. And so then her mom's like, so anytime you're talking about a memory with your nanny, you need to say it's with me, okay,

so that we don't lose her. And I was like, wow. This is just lurking in this subconscious. But well done. Really well done. That's great. Thank you. Oh, man, that is so fucked up. That's what I was going for. I'm like, am I writing something that's like not a thriller or not dark? And then I remember some of those scenes. And I'm like, no, it's dark. No, it is. It's plenty dark.

That's great. I love that. And so speaks to that sort of like presentation of family versus like actual family. And like, yeah. Yeah. That's great. Excellent. Yeah.

Wow. Have you had it happen? Well, thank you. Yeah. I've had it happen a lot. I can't think of any examples. I mean, I can think of examples in my other books. but it's, again, hard not to have it be a spoiler and or, like, remember, I mean, I'm also a couple

years out from having written my last two books. But, like, speaking of research or different things, I've just had it happen for the project I'm working on now, which I think I've shared a little bit about, but I'm trying to keep a little close to the vest as I'm developing it. But I have a rule for myself, which is when I'm writing, if I am having, like, a strong urge to do something. And by that, I mean, listen to a song, not like rob a bank, you know. Like, I'm also reading the book Monsters by Claire Deterre, which is about like, it's,

hold on, I'm using it to make my face look thinner by having it as part of my computer stack, but I'll pull it out for you all. Monsters, a fan's dilemma by Claire Deterre. Fantastic. And it's basically like, what do we do with bad men who make good art? It's like that question. And she's, there is no answer, right? There's no one answer.

And she is doing such a smart, like pulling apart all the layers of it and like why this is so difficult. And like basically we're also talking about the thing called like the art monster, like the man. And it's almost always a man, although there are a few different examples who get to really be like fully monstrous and service of being like a genius. So when I say I give myself permission to do whatever I want, I don't mean that. I mean, if I'm writing something and I'm having a really strong urge to listen to a song I haven't thought of for a million years or to be like, I need to Google this thing, I follow it. And now there's like a tough balance between that and being like, what am I letting myself get distracted? But like, I guess it's tuning into what that is is part of part of the process too. This is all really vague.

But it's just to say like there's a, am I distracting myself or am I following a rabbit hole? that's going to do something for my project and my brain. And I have learned that like when I get that really strong, weird urge, oftentimes it's the second one. It's like there's something about this that I need to like wrestle with for my project. So I had something happen the other night. This book I'm working on, I want to include the POV of essentially a haunted little doll. Not little.

When you posted your story about the dolls that stare at you while you sleep, I was like, well, it all fits. It really does. And I will send, I mean, I'll send you a picture. We can post that alongside this episode. My mom has dolls in the guest bedroom. So when I stay at my parents' house, there are like these dolls that sit. And the other day, she was also like, oh, what are we going to do about your dolls? And I was like, oh, no, no, I'm so sorry, those aren't my dolls. Those are your dolls. Like, those are not my dolls. They're your dolls. And I don't mean that, like, I gave them to you. I mean that, like, those are her dolls from childhood. I don't know why she's saying they're my dolls. Like, no, no. So I'm trying to figure, I'm wrestling with this, how do I do this perspective of this character that's not human that has this weird, almost objective POV, but like objective POVs I think are not that fun to read. So I want her to also have like a very snarky, like I want her to have a real voice in there.

And it made me think for some reason I got into my head and I had to track it down. And I could not remember the title, God bless Google. I remember there was this book. this really weird book that I used to really like. And it actually scared me. I read it when I was in like elementary school and middle school. I think I checked it out so many times the librarian said, you take this.

Like no one else has checked this out in like 40 years. This book is now yours. So and I, but I couldn't find it on the shelves and I couldn't remember what it was called. And it was this like, I was like I knew it was from the UK. And I knew there was candle in the title. And I just remember being really freaked out by it, and I couldn't remember why. And so I did a Google search, and it took like 40 minutes, and I finally found it. And it's a Welsh book, so I was ballpark-ish, a Welsh book called, let's see, a candle in her room by Ruth M. Arthur.

And it is now hard and expensive to find copies of this book. But what I had forgotten, like truly, this is funny that I set it up this way, because you're going to, be like, you didn't forget this, but I really did. I was like, I couldn't remember why I was thinking of this book. I couldn't remember why I was like interested in this book. The book is about a haunted doll that impacts three generations of women living in the same house. It's like an evil doll. I did not remember the doll part at all. I just remembered like, oh, there's, I don't know that there's something about this book that I want to like be reading while I'm thinking about this project. And I looked it up and I was like, that's why there's like an evil doll and I'd forgotten about

the evil doll. And so I don't know. Our brains like, are you? Are you? these big weird filing cabinets that like do have this inner knowledge that we like don't always have access to why we're doing it until we know why you know and in this case it was reading like the story graph description and being like am i going to spend 65 dollars to buy this off of ebay i might have to i don't know you know like oh my gosh yeah i'm assuming there's like not even digital versions no oh no no let's see i it from 1966 yeah yeah yeah Yeah, let's see. A candle in a room, the story of three generations of haunted people and the doll Dido,

whose compelling smile and enticing hint of evil changed even the lives of those who were repelled by her. Thanks, Ray. Can I tell you one of my favorite through lines of yours? Sure. Is that like all of the children's media you consumes is so terrifying? You're not wrong. Like last time we talked about, um, uh, return. to us?

Return to us, yes. And you were like, it's actually really quite terrifying for children. I love your through life. Honestly, thank God I grew up. You know, I was born in 88. And so I like got, I think the 80s were peak like media for kids that was like, we're going to fuck you up. You know what I mean?

Like really that's what you have like the dark crystal. You have all this stuff that's like a little too, what we would probably say now is too dark. But like I loved it. And like, I'm fine mostly. you know like i'm a i'm an okay adults like i'm got i'm all right you know i just i love i mean disney killed every parent so like in the early days of jim so totally i mean the lion king basically like devastated you know just all of it i was two years old and it was like the story that was told

that everyone uh yeah sorry uh that it was the first movie i saw in theater and i was in consolable and could not stop crying at that point. And they're like, it's the beginning of the movie and she couldn't keep it together. I get it. I have a nicer thought on that. I guess now that I'm older, I'm like, look it, sweet little Kate. But it would be before it was repeated over and over again how much that just wrecked me from two years old. So if there was any predictor that I was going to be the highly sensitive person that I am, we knew early.

Girl, I have a similar story. I was sent home in second grade. we had a like traveling theater troupe come to my elementary school and they performed um sadako and the thousand paper cranes and i couldn't stop crying for the rest of the day like and i don't mean like making a scene i mean i have a memory of like just doing my math worksheet hours after was over just like tears streaming down my face just like two plus two and my teacher being like are you okay and i'm just like sadako in the crates and i remember too her having to like give a speech to the class and being like some students are more affected than others.

Like, you can't be mean to them. And I had to go home because I was just crying too much. I get it. And mine like that, when I'm in my ludial face, it gets so bad. There was a time, like, I feel like it was like four years ago. Essentially, like, when I was kind of, it's the newness to TikTok. But, like, Tyler was gone for work. So, like, I had been scrolling for a second.

I'm not even going to say what the TikTok was. Oh, no. It was so heartbreaking. I'll just say it. I'm not going to cry now. But like a dog saw his dog friend get hit by a car. And then he was just laying by it in the middle of the street. I started sobbing and I was just alone all night.

And I would like think I'd gotten away from the memory. And then I would remember it. I just start sobbing again. I don't know that I wanted to know that. It was so. I can still see it. And I'm like, that was so sad. That is so sad.

But, you know, it probably makes. makes us good creative, good writers. Yes, yes. I think so, that empathy and like, and also you're right. This podcast, my episodes are cumulatively an exploration of like, why did Hallie have access to such dark shit as a kid? Like, here we are. Yeah, yeah.

So that's, I mean, I think so. I think the ability to like feel those things serves us as writers and artists, you know, like put yourself in somebody else's shoes and. something cool that Liz, well, she was Elizabeth McCullough Keenan is her full author name now, but I know her as Liz. And on the episode, it's episode 44 of Imposter Hour. I'm not sure when we're releasing this episode that just came out. They were talking to Dan Lawton, but she at one point was saying, like, I connect with what you're saying because I feel like we're all just milling for

empathy in our lives to like get into the page as well and I loved I need to text her I literally was like I need to text her to tell her how great I thought that was because I feel like that is I basically I had an idea for the like finale structure that like save the cat recommends has like this five point there's some name about the five something um but it's kind of of like you come out of the dark night of the soul you rally the troops uh you think you have a plan that's going to work you do the plan it actually doesn't work is like the third part yeah um and then they you basically try again and then you either fail if it's a sad if it's a gear if it's a gear book or you succeed and feel a little bit good about um the world again but from the milling for

empathy thing there was something that happened here recently oh i was just having another conversation with um laura who's a patron um and very cool and very fun we were talking about something and it reminded me of something i hadn't thought of and forever and i was like i can use that version i can i can use the emotional resonance of what happened there for my like that third part of the finale where like actually that wasn't the plan that was going to work. And so then like hearing Liz in the same week hearing Liz talk about like milling for empathy, I'm like, oh yeah. And something else I've always loved about Imposter Hour, they have like their fair share

because I'm sure it's a fair share of total writers who are like, I'm just very emotional and neurotic and like, no, you don't want to live in my head. Like you really don't. he there is um basically there's another guy like early on who is talking about that he's like yeah sure it's cool that like we can like write these scenes but it's also probably because we've like felt very deeply about something or experienced something or heard something that someone else experienced as well so that part I just I love that part of stories too though because now now I'm connecting back to some of the stuff we've been talking about this

month in general about like when mike white was like almost crying about how stories are his religion yeah that has with me so much because i've had a few moments over the last two or three weeks where like stories were helping me understand something that like i was really struggling with and it's such an amazing moment when story can do that in all kinds of ways not even like always deep ways. Oh yeah, absolutely. And like that's the magic, right? Like both for us as writers and also like all of us as readers is like the different lives you get to live, the different ways that like seeing somebody else's experience maybe helps you understand your own in a different way. And like, you know, I think of things like science fiction where it's like sometimes you can get at the truth

of something more deeply if you like remove it and set it like in a fantastical space or, you know, that it's often about like the anxieties that we're feeling about different things. I mean, there's just so many things that like fiction can do and be truthful to even while it's a made up story that's kind of amazing. Yes. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Bookwild, but I would love to do it without having to have ads in the podcast.

And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon, is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early. And you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book-related

or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the book wild. tier and it includes everything from the first tier but also bookwild's backlist book club so this year i've been wanting to also still read more backlist even though i read plenty of arcs and book wilds backless book club felt like the perfect way to do that we meet on sundays we are international right now so sundays are the best way to do it and we meet on zoom and we all pick a book and we talk about it and then we talk about everything else we read during the month. And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far. And we'd love to have you join the book club.

So if you'd like to support the Book Wild podcast, you can go to the Patreon link in the show notes and you can sign up for whichever tier interests you. And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. I can't stop talking about this book, but I also was talking about it last night with Ashley, because Samia Davay, the author of The Guilt Pill, was also at this same bookstore a week ago. I was like trying to convince myself to do this like three hour drive twice in a week. And I couldn't do it. I was like I'm, I've committed to Ashley's. But we were talking about it because I was talking to the owner and I was like, you guys had Samia over too. And hers is so cool because it's

called the guilt pill. And the whole gist of it is essentially a mom who is the CEO of, her company like has her first kid with her husband he goes back to work he's fine everything's good she doesn't want to give up her CEO position um she wants she feels like she's the best one to lead the company um and she thought that she would just be able to carry on working and that's not the case so the book is pretty much like it it is a speculative fiction all the all on that adage that when moms are at work, they're guilty, they're not with their kids. And when they're with their kids, they feel guilty, they're not at work. Some moms.

Now, you could also just change work out. There are all kinds of things. Like, even if being a mom full time, you still have guilt about like, oh, I just, I want to be away from my kids for a little while. Then they feel guilty for that too. So there's all kinds of guilt. It's not just work. But that's what this book does.

And I just, I, that's some of my favorite things that speculative fiction. and like black mirror type stuff does is it's like let's write a whole story around like this conundrum and then it's even cooler or I enjoy it even more when when they pull off showing multiple perspectives and like art coming down definitively totally on who's right totally totally and like that's another beautiful gift to fiction right is like And that's something, I do think we should do an episode sometime on like POV in general. Like there's so much to unpack there. But like, and it's something I love about first person POV is how limited it is.

It's like you really. And it's such an interesting trick on the reader. I feel like when you read a first person POV, you're prime to believe that like you're seeing things kind of objectively. But of course you never are. And that doesn't mean somebody is like an unreliable narrator. It just means that like they have limits. right like they can only see what they can see and they can only understand things based on who they are but like when you're right with the multiple perspectives too it like there's it's like getting to be like see a

prism of like a situation where you can turn it in all these different ways and see all these different things and be like oh i thought something was like this because of this person's perspective and then i see it over here and it's totally different and when somebody can pull that off well like just genius you know i know two come to mind and we were just talking about agare and i were again but we used to all the time when we started the podcast the affair on showtime just does it so well totally and so like the ways the way that it does it is like just showing how different male perspective and even female perspective are like even if it was just that like that's what they like do so well with but the other person who did it so well that like i could not stop talking about was

Lori Brands with bodies to die for. Yeah. And she examines so many, I mean, there's so many POVs. There are like three that are like the main ones or maybe four. But there are also like some that you just have a couple chapters with. And I just like, I was so impressed by how many perspectives and then like facets of body image and body image and culture. Totally.

She just talked about so many of them. Totally. So good. So good. So excellent. Truly. So we'll have to do a full POV episode. I definitely wrote that down because, oh, it is just, it's so fun.

And it's making me think because you, I have you memes popping up all over. And. Right. And an excellent. of first person POV, right? Like, I felt like I came into that show pretty clued in that he was the bad guy, but there's a way that like his badness is really seductive for a long time because he's so compelling and funny and snarky.

And like, so you're willing to kind of not even reserve judgment, but like not let judgment be the driver. You're sort of like, let's see where this goes, you know? Like, even as like he's doing, like even before we get to any murdery thing, what he's doing in the first season, I'm not going to apologize for spoiling the first season of this show. No. It's like the setup. It's he's stalking a woman, you know? And like that's a crime that I find really abhorrent in real life and have no interest in like actually understanding somebody who does that. But in the show, because he's so funny and compelling. You're sort of like, I know. What's going to happen here? You know? I know. And like, it should concern us more, but I just enjoy it. So I just enjoy it. And said, it should,

it should, uh, concern us more that humor. Humor is enough in most of those cases to be like, yeah, but it's fun to watch. Yeah. Especially for a man. You're like, nah, but he's funny. You know, like we should not be approaching life that way. We definitely should not. We should know better for sure. Another show, we do just need to do a whole episode about it is what we're realizing. Yeah. But the Day of the Jackal with Eddie Redmayne.

I have not watched. You're just like he, this is not a spoiler. He is a bad guy. Yeah. Bad guy. And you feel so, I felt so conflicted, especially through like the last two episodes. I was like, why am I sometimes pulling for him? Totally.

Why? I know he is terrible. But it's also, I think what that ends up reminding me of when I'm consuming stories of any kind is how important it is to understand that like sometimes just being in someone's perspective makes you fine with what they're doing just because you're in their perspective. Totally. I agree. especially if you set it up like in certain ways. I mean, I actually think we should also have a full episode about like constructing an anti-hero because it also makes me think about like Walter White and Breaking Bad,

who's kind of like, you know, the generations one. But like also even say I'm one of those people who I don't know that I'd argue it's a better show, but I enjoyed Better Call Saul more. I found it less stressful to watch even though it's like. It's more emotional but not as stressful. Yeah, and it's got the, um, there's something, I'm not usually, I don't know, that's like a whole thing we could talk about, but like the way, the, the, truly the trick in breaking bad of like making us identify with Walter White so much that it takes us like three seasons to really be like, oh no, you actually are the bad guy. You're not cosplaying the bad guy. You are the bad guy. And we should have picked up on that way faster, but you're kind of with him. It's kind of like he's a teacher and he's got cancer and like that's terrible. And he's been like, sticked over by his friends and like and then you're like oh no wait a second like an asshole brother-in-law yeah right like there's all this stuff that you're sort of like okay he's sort of like me i mean he's not like me because

he's not a woman but you know like uh there's like which like i say that kind of flippantly except to say like that's the thing right like we they ask us to identify with men a lot more than they ever ask men to identify with women but that's i was just listening amy polar talk about this yeah so that's my plug that her episode with quincea brunson is fantastic. Excellent. I got to check that out. But, um, but they like, you know, that there's so much of him being like, quote unquote, that every man are relatable that like he can take you darker as long as it's kind of incrementally and you sort of understand the steps before you fully realize like, oh no, like this is this person is like not just like an anti-hero. He's bad,

bad. He becomes bad. Yeah, Ozzy, that Ozimandias episode like, my God. Yeah. But it that's that whole like you can boil frog in water like if he gets in when it's like lukewarm totally because you like just don't feel it happening yeah anyone who loves stories like this and somehow hasn't heard me say it yet severance does a really good job of that too like I got to watch every a lot of the first season and the second season as well but a lot of the first season is like I understand why people don't like the pacing like that's fine um but a lot of it is sitting with multiple characters and kind of seeing like what makes them break bad never like completely anti-hero but it's that like fun journey of like what is going to make them like radically against

what they were previously doing and it's and then just the way they layer of multiple characters having that experience happen you all know i love severance so i'll i'll stop but they do it well too Yeah. And I have to say Killing Eve is, we finally got a female one there. That came up from earlier when you were talking about that. Killing Eve does it so well. Totally. It really does. It really does. And then, but also she's also in a space, like I would say Eve herself

is not the character that we're asked to connect with usually as much as Sandra O, you know? Yes. So she gets to like live in a realm of just like bad avatar that's fun. She does. Yeah, because the conflicted part is that, and I can't think of her name other than Sandra either right now, is that she's, she's conflicted by kind of enjoying, like, being intrigued by someone that bad. Totally. What would it be like to be like that?

And seeing, and that it's a woman and, yeah, all of those pieces, yes. And then Agatha, we already talked about that one. Agatha, the queen. Pure, anti-hero by the end, if not. For sure. villain. I don't know. I know. I know. So yeah, we need to talk about points of view. Yes. Yes. Subdive and constructing the anti-hero. Right. And like how like a question that I think would be interesting for us to talk about too that I just am interested in. Maybe no one else is. But like how do you

keep how do you worry about keeping a character relatable? How far can you push them? How like what is the what's the line? You know? And it's Steph and I were kind of having a conversation like this that it's reminding me of because she, I'm going to be vague, had, she recommended a book to a friend and was like, it's campy and it's over the top. So like read it if that's what you want. And then the person like wrote this review about how terrible and ungrounded it was, which is fine. You obviously can like have that opinion. but um so we were talking about that she was like i told her this like yeah maybe just like maybe this wasn't for you then and you could have known from the beginning and i was like yeah i was like

because can't be for me is also something that like i'm not always in the mood for like sometimes sometimes like i'm going to be in a mood where i'm like this this isn't going to fit for me and then there are other times where i'm like yes i need this to be like dialed up to a 12 and it makes it more fun. So that's the other part about like when you're saying like how do you write it well enough that like it's either grounded or relatable or like people are just in different moods at different times. And so it's like sometimes I'm going to have a reaction where I'm like, oh, that was just so much fun. And I'm not even pointing out that it was like over the top. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I think that's like the question. Right. And like and I totally agree with that too.

And like, and I think part of the answer there is also like there's no, no one book that's for all readers, right? So like some people's lines will be very different about what makes something unrelatable or like too campy or too much or, you know, and like you can't write a book that's going to satisfy everybody in those ways ever. But it's like maybe how thinking about effectiveness and like what's what's the way to get as much of the audience as you can. but I'm with you. That's also like the bane of every writer's existence, right? It's like my first book, The Lady Upstairs, was very polarizing for a lot of people. And a lot of, there are plenty of things in there to polarize people.

And I'm not, you know, whatever. Reader's experience is a reader's experience. But I will say that there was a subset of frustration with the book where people were kind of almost like, this is morally bankrupt. And what they're essentially doing in the book is sex work. and I'm like, but it's on the back cover. You know what I mean?

Like it's like, so if that was going to be a thing that you didn't like, why did you pick it up, you know? And like that's not to say there's not plenty of stuff to dislike in the book or that like you couldn't critique it in all these ways. And that's fine. I mean, thank you for reading if you hated it. But also just like, yeah, I don't really always understand that where it's like on the back cover about something.

And it's like, but like what, why then? Yes. You were warned. That was one of the reviews I pulled. We did, we did like Ashley reading her bad reviews. Oh, no. I don't think I can handle that. I was like, because I pitched her the idea.

I was like, it's like celebrities reading mean tweets. And I was like, I know some authors do not read a single review. So just tell me if you don't want to do it. She was down to do it. But one of the ones I pulled was about the last housewife. And it said, just so bad. I hate books about sex cults. And we were all having the same feeling where we were like, what it was.

Her response was even kind of like, I feel like I told you that part. Like, I feel like I warned you. You didn't have to. Not only would it be like on the back cover, but Ashley is also very good about doing trigger warnings or like content warnings in the front of her book too. So truly like not a lot of empathy for that reviewer. Sorry, whoever you are. I know.

I know. It's like, well, this wasn't for you. That's what sometimes so hard. for me on NetGalley is sometimes I get so conflicted on my own review because I'm like, it was not for me, but I think it was a really good version of this. Sure. And so it's like if it was good reads, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't like write a review probably even is what I would. But then sometimes on NetGalley, you're like, I don't know. Like it didn't work for me. And you can say that. And I do say that. But then sometimes I'm like, do I make it a three?

Do I make it a four? I know. It's weird. It is weird. It's, it is hard. It's, and I mean, that's, that is, like, the beauty of art, right? Is that it is all subjective and that, like, everybody, and, like, to go back to this Claire Deteret-Rae book I'm reading.

And I also went to a webinar last week, and I'm saying that because I, there are things I wanted, that they shared some, like, really interesting wisdom about writing that I want to, like, share. Oh, nice. So I'm putting a pin in that. But, like, the Claire Deteray book. that talks about like what do we do with the art of bad men she talks about the fact that like there's this idea of separating the art from the artist but you really can't do that because all of us are bringing our biography as consumers of art right like the reason that these things are like

hard for people to consume after you've heard about Harvey Weinstein or whatever is like the empathy that we have or the experience that we have or the feelings that you have that might be tied to what he has done to women you know that like you can't divorce your own experience from that. And so like that and like so I'm not trying to like make too pat a comparison except just to say that like we all bring our own biographies to our own reviews and our own books we read too. And like and it doesn't have to be like traumatizing for us not to like it. But that's just to say that like not everything is for us. And so. No. But like that is that's part of it. You know, like that is you can't get away from that. You can't get to a reader that's like this is purely perfect. Like it's all of us just

bringing our feelings and thoughts and they're all equally valid to an experience. It just is, you know, that's why we're lucky that there is so many good books and so much good art and TV shows. There's something out there that you can connect with, just maybe not the same as everybody else's. Right. Sometimes that's, like sometimes I just, I don't know why. I start thinking, Something just fell. Oh, okay. It's like, is your house being broken into? I mean, it kind of sounded like it for a second.

Sometimes, and probably even just out of curiosity, it's not like it comes up when I'm writing. And so I'm thinking of it in regards to that. But like, one of the best examples to just use would be how widely loved like Evelyn Hugo is. but there are also still people who are like this was terrible you you will find those reviews too and you also have your people who are just going to say that about anything that's a hyped book sure um but sometimes it's like sometimes i think about like so what so how what is it that made that book connect with so many people when like there's probably another similar book out there than not as many people i mean did you hear about kitty cars one that i talk about a lot um

And I do think, I mean, it was a Reese's book club big. So like people know, but it's like, yeah, they don't necessarily on the Evelyn Hugo level. So then it's like, what is it? And in that that's the whole luck part of like the universe too is like the timing of when hers came out and like how she met her agent or whatever like all of that. Just like how can you tell? And then I'm like, but it is a good reminder then because like once I reached. the same conclusion that you just can't know, then I'm like, okay, well, I don't need to think about it when I'm writing then. I agree. And like, how safe a space is this? Can I say something

controversial, not about Evelyn Hugo? But so the one that I think about all the time, because I think, I think about, and I talk about with people, my writer, my other writer friends, what we're talking about now, what makes the book, why do some readers connect with books, some books, so much more than others, right? Like, Lane and I have talked about that even with the favorites, but, like, is really connecting with a lot of readers, but, like, you know, I love her first book, temper, too. Like, why didn't that one connect with as many readers? Like, what is the difference? And the person that I think about that with the most, I think Taylor Jenkins Reed does a really good job of connecting with readers in that way, and I think it's whatever

emotional experience she crafts for the reader. I think so, too. Now, I'm going to say something a little spicy. I am not a Colleen Hoover fan. Same. Point blank. I don't love her writing, and that's as diplomatic as I'll be about it. Yes.

But those books connect with people. You know, her books really connect with people. And I read it, and I have a very different experience. and would have a lot of not, if you caught me at a bar and we were talking about it, I would probably be a lot more explicit than I'm going to be on a podcast.

But like, it's undeniable that her books connect with readers on an emotional level, that there is something that she is doing that is really working for people and they are having really like deep, like, you know, like mainline it into my veins. Yeah. experiences with her books in this way that like maybe speaks to something other than the way that

she crafts similes or metaphors or the things that she puts together. Yes, your face. And I'm really not trying to be a jerk about it. But you know what I mean? Like I would argue that on a line level, Taylor Jenkins read is a much better writer and as are many different people. But like there is something that Colleen Hoover is doing that people are really connecting with. And I think it is the emotional experience that she crafts for the readers. Like, people really attached to that. And so it is interesting to think when and I think that that is often true of those books that really catch fire like Evelyn Hugo or the favorites or you know, any of the books that really kind of have big moments. I think there is some sort of emotional

experience that the readers really like get sucked into. Right. Yeah. And it's like, plus side of net galley, there are like so many things where I'm like, this is someone's debut. And so it's like there's so many people. Yeah. who are so skilled and like it may not get in front of as many people as I think it should. Yeah, which is like a sad, devastating reality of like the state of publishing for sure. Yeah. For like writing episode. Totally.

I know. I mean, it's the reality of it. So it is. It totally is. It totally is. But I'll back out of that and say. So I went to this webinar last week. it was put on by the book incubator and it was free and it was about revision and they had three

different speakers. Ruffy Thorpe who wrote Margot's Got Money Troubles. Mary Adkins and sorry to this man I do not remember his name but he is a memoir writer and he was great too. And they kind of talked about different processes for revision and different processes for writing. And there were a couple really fascinating nuggets that came out of it that I found very affirming as a writer that I wanted to share, which was basically like how much, and first of all, let me say this. So Rufie Thorpe started the webinar by reading us a passage

of the published version of a couple pages from Margot's Got Money Troubles. And then she read to us like one of the early drafts of Margot's Got Money Troubles to show like how these had differed and why she had changed certain things in them. And let me say this. It was, I felt personally attacked by how good the first trap, true, like the first pass at Rufi Thorpe's page. I was like, what? Like, okay, you're going to show us like, you're still writing publishable quality things. Fine. Fine. That's fine. But she, I know, but she, so she read these kind of these two different parts and she talked about basically how much processing power it takes for a writer to envision a world and teach ourselves the characters and teach ourselves the

relationships between the characters and how the work of revision is putting yourself in the reader's seat and understanding how much less processing power it takes for a reader to buy into your world essentially saying that like we might have to write three scenes to get ourselves to understand something about a character where a reader can pick it up in one scene And part of the work that you're doing as revision is trying to like basically a huge part of the pleasure of reading, she said, is the inferences that you don't have to have every single thing explained to you that you're bringing your own knowledge. And I totally know this feeling, right? Like when you read a book and you're like, I think I'm picking up on something. And it almost makes you feel like you're a genius.

You know what I mean? Like or is that just my? Or is like the news all right where I'm like, everything feels off. And you just like know that something's off and that you just, you'll eventually know what's happening. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And so finding like basically the work of revision is like taking out that hand of the author that's like I had to write this much to to teach myself this. The reader needs this much, you know?

And so like doing that, which is that's for me who's an overwriter. There are some people whose first drafts are underwritten and you have to go the opposite way and sort of like build out a world around it. But for me, somebody who could be like, write 10 pages that winds up being like three paragraphs in the final draft. I found that really, like, insightful and like made me feel relieved to be like, oh, good, I'm not doing it wrong. You know, I'm just having a different process. And then. Well, that's like Stephen King's quote is like you tell yourself the whole story and then you go back and remove the parts that aren't the story. Totally.

Totally. And like we all do like, we do that when we're writing. Right? You have like, I think Amy Gentry calls it scaffolding, the sort of like pieces that you're putting up so that you understand the story or like tics you're leaning on. You know, like I noticed in my first draft, everybody's eyes are telling the story. It's like she looked there and she looked at him and like da-da-da-da. And you're like, if you keep that in, that's going to be very annoying to read. But like that's the sort of thing I'm starting to do that's like, you know. And then there was another thing they said that really, blew my mind. I am somebody who often struggles with like beginnings and like whether that's the beginning of a book or getting into a scene. It's like if it doesn't sometimes you have those magic moments where you just connect with something and it all unfurls. But a lot of the times I find myself rewriting the same scene for many different reasons trying to like find the right way in. And they somebody said on the call, the best beginning is the place where action meets voice. And I was like,

Like, yo, that's genius. So that one really stuck with me too, is the idea of finding the place where you can really be put a character in a situation where they can be very voicy. So you understand who they are and who you'll be reading immediately while also having something happen. And I think that's true even of like more literary novels too. Like, I don't know.

Has anyone picked up a book that's been like, I looked at a sunbeen for 15. minutes and you've got 15 pages of it and been like great i want to read this book like i don't think so you know you want there to be something that kicks us off into the next thing so those are things that i'm thinking about this week after that webinar i like that but you know who i it's reminding me dianeal valentinex makes some really great writing related content on ticot and that that was like she i like reviled is my first chapter because that was what she was focused on for a while I was talking about well she would always say like I was a slush agent who read stuff like here's what you need to do so that like I would have kept reading your book and I was like first of all fantastic hook because I was like

oh okay you like told me your credibility like how you can help me like so quickly and so then I started following her a couple years ago um but like the way she talks about like everything that you should put in a first chapter. That was another moment where like I heard like a structure and why it matters and how it can also just help you like get someone's attention at the beginning. And I like just had a moment where I just completely reworked my first chapter a couple of times. And now it like start so strong with action and voice actually when you were saying that. And then the way that she like explained when to end it, I was like, oh, the ending is really strong now too. I am going to propose that we include a new segment when we do our writing podcast where I think a big piece of, and I think we've talked about this before, I actually think that that's like part of the Swedish of like this podcast and like we've talked about with Agatha all along is sort of like how do we learn from the things that we consume to make us better writers, better storytellers too, right? And so I think we're all kind of doing this more passively. You're like absorbing things without realizing it. But I think we're.

should have a segment that we talk about where what's like a craft trick that we either want to use or that we observed in something we've read or watched or done lately that's like that we can we identified and we can pull out okay so you included watched so I feel like I do have one okay good but it's like you'll understand what I'm saying I mean it could be done with writing too so no spoilers but I saw sinners uh was it good was it excellent oh it is okay it is so fantastic. I am recording an episode in two days with a friend who's like as obsessed with Ryan Coogler as well, the director, writer, like, who knows what else he did on the movie. So I want to be able to see it again before that episode, but I don't know if that is going to be in the cards for me. But it is so good

that I would go do it. And Tyler's out of town when I saw it the first time. But like, I'd heard so many people talking about it that I was like I bet I would go again with him so I just went ahead and saw it. Oh my God. I'm obsessed. There are so many things to this movie and I'm just like not going to say much. But he uses horror and music and character to talk about America in the 1930s and race. and culture vultures in just so many brilliant ways in such uh when you were talking about cutting the stuff out i almost started i couldn't i almost couldn't help myself i almost had to talk about sinners i'm like out of breath i'm getting so excited um because he gives you so much information in such short scenes that like when i think back on it i'm like that was like a

barely two-hour movie like all of that happened so there's that but this is not a spoiler for it there are a michael b jordan plays twins which i one of my favorite parts of tic-tok is that immediately the joke was like the editing was so good i thought there was a michael a jordan and a michael b Jordan. Amazing. So I love the internet for those moments, but Michael B. Jordan plays twins. So to your point, again, about being able to like explain a bunch about a character really quickly to the viewer in this case, you need to know how to keep, or keep them separate

pretty quickly because like we're also getting into the action and it's also an ensemble cast like they're not the only people that matter um and they're the smoke stack twins and one is named smoke and one is named stack and so they both wear suits that are relatively similar um and smoke wears like red in some ways and stackers blue in some ways so you are you there there's like stuff going on visual cues the other thing that i thought was so cool is like at least in the first few scenes. I think I was at around 30 minutes, like the note that I have about it, but like any of the scenes that smoke is in are hazier or someone's smoking a cigarette or he's smoking a cigarette. And so like really quickly, like, you're like, oh, it's smoke, even if your brain's not like

thinking, thinking it. And I was like, that was such a brilliant way to help us like immediately keep them separate. Yeah. Yeah, that's totally. That's great. And I think you're right, you could totally replicate that on the page in some way. I don't know how you would do it in the same. Because you're talking about like a very visual language. Visual. But like, but I think that there are things. Like, I mean, even the way that somebody speaks or like, you know, different things where you can be immediately like, oh yeah, I remember who this character is.

They're not just one of many. They're specific. Yeah. That's great. Sometimes end up mattering in books. That's great. Maybe you can do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Sinners is fantastic. Okay, I got to see it. Just great story telling. It's fantastic. Love it. Okay, so mine this week is this week I read and finished the book Exalted by Anna Dorn. And it is, there's two different POV characters in it, and I'm not going to do a whole thing about the book.

It's really kind of like more of a, things happen, but it's like kind of a character study about one of the main characters is a woman who runs an astrology app called Exalted. And she's kind of run out of, she's become kind of like a celebrity doing it online, but as the book opens, she sort of like lost her faith in astrology until she gets somebody asked her to read their chart. And she reads it, and it's like the perfect chart.

All the planets are like, if you could pick where the planets are supposed to be, they are. And so she becomes very attached to this person and is like basically like, if I could become his girlfriend, like it would solve all the problems in my life.

And, yeah, and so she, so the book, she keeps making left of center choices, let's say, like increasingly unhinged choices. And something that the book does is she talks about how she had gone to see her therapist and her therapist, like she can no longer afford to see the therapist. But if I was still seeing my therapist, they would say that I was acting out of this way, but I think I'm acting out of this thing. And that happens throughout the book where she'll be like, is it, is it my OCD that my therapist has defined? Or is it that I'm like in conversation with the cosmos in a way that people don't understand?

And I became aware. And I mean, it was very funny throughout the book, but I became aware that like there were two other functions that this was serving within the story, these kind of asides of what my therapist would say I was doing. It was acknowledging for the reader that she was making really insane decisions. So it was sort of ameliorating any anxiety that we were having. I don't know why I just chose to use the word ameliorate, but there we go. I love that word though. It is a good word, right? Yeah.

And ameliorating, I'm sticking with it. Any like of that sort of discomfort we're having about the decision she's making because it's acknowledging that like this is something she shouldn't be doing. And it's also telling us that on some level the character understands that this, she does know on some level that these are bad choices she's made. So it sort of, it was this thing that serves as being kind of funny, but it also kept it very grounded and it also kind of added layers to the character. And so it was just thinking about that,

it was such a smart way to be able to, like, create a character who's going to make unhinged choices while keeping us knowing that, like, the writer sees it and that the character on some level sees it too. You know what I mean? Like, there was just a really small, smart thing that I was like, oh, remember that for when you're writing an unhinged character. Give her some way to stay in touch with the reality and the audience, even if it's like

in the back of her mind. And I would guess that at the beginning parts at least too, it's also kind of giving you like backstory or like kind of like defining her character a little bit by like if you know what she was working on in therapy previously, like you're gaining little like bits of info about her too. Totally. Totally. And like and then also it's drawing.

didn't think of this just now, but it's also drawing this line between mental health and sort of like the ways that we try to understand ourselves using different frameworks in the world. And like, yeah, so that was just a small thing that I noticed as I was reading that I was like, oh, that's a really cool craft trick that she's doing that, like, I could just read without like analyzing, but the analysis makes it feel like now it's part of my time. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, I feel like most. remotely self-aware people have had the experience of like whying to themselves a little bit. Right. So it's also like, it's also like if you were debating why she was making a decision, it's also kind of like, if you never made a decision, you weren't second guessing? Totally, totally. And yeah, and it's like, you know, I'm also, I don't think you, this will save this for maybe the anti-hero episode, but like it's not like you have to keep people doing super-relations.

things because otherwise fiction would be very boring to read. But it was an interesting way to sort of have your cake and eat it too in that way. Yeah. I love this new segment. I do too. And I think it's like a fun, now I'm going to be like looking for things outside in the world that I can like bring back to talk to you about. I know. And it's interesting because I'm realizing I have a note where I've kind of been doing this because

there are books where I get to the end and I'm like, oh. Oh, you can do it that way. Totally. I remember the first, I think when I started that note was when I read everyone who can forgive me is dead. And this doesn't spoil the book to say it. But I got to the end. And like, I was like, oh, you just can like not tell the reader some things, which sounds

really basic. But if you've read the book, you probably like understand where it's coming from, where I'm like, oh, it doesn't even always have to be like, not everything. needs to be foreshadowed. Sure. Like there are just some things that you can just not tell the reader till the end and it creates suspense, even though like when you're writing it, you know what happened and you're like, is it suspenseful? And it's like, yes, if you're if you're withholding details. Sure. It is. And I think I was I was at a point writing my book where I was starting to stress out about like, how do I know if this still feels suspenseful? And then I was like,

well, you just have to write it anyway. But totally. Then I read that. book and I was like, oh, you can just withhold the stuff that you wrote. Totally, totally, until the minutes you need it. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, now I'm going to be looking out for it even more. Excellent. And everything I can soon. Yay.