Bookwild - Three Hitmen, a Baby, and the Art of Writing Great Action: Rob Hart's Three Hitmen and a Baby

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

This week, I talk with Rob Hart about his third Assassins Anonymous book Three Hitmen and a Baby! Listen to hear about: Why the series resonates beyond action: Hart uses professional killers in recovery to examine guilt, redemption, personal growth, and whether people can truly change.   Rob's writing philosophy, and why he believes even pantsers need to know where their story is headed emotionally.   Why humor is essential in thrillers, arguing that comedy acts as a pressure-release valve that helps readers connect more deeply with characters and makes even high-stakes action scenes more memorable.     Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Rob Hart, who is a repeat guest on the podcast. And this week we're talking about his newest installment in the Assassins Anonymous trilogy, Three Hitman and a Baby. The title really tells you almost everything that you need to know. But basically, three assassins from the group of Assassins Anonymous take care of their friend's baby and shenanigans ensue, as you can imagine. I really think that's mostly what you need to know going into it. I do like giving like shorter synopsies lately because sometimes I love not knowing the full

synopsis myself. But we talk about what Rob loves about writing series, what he loves about writing standalones, how he gets his ideas, and how he approached writing this book where he already can't have mortal violence because they are in Assassins Anonymous. But now with a baby thrown in, there's a whole other curveball. So that being said, let's hear from Rob. I am back with Rob and actually we've met in person now since the last one, which was so cool at Thriller Fest last year. Well, so so technically, because I yelled at you from the stage of a panel, but then, but then our past didn't cross after that. So we have seen each other in reality. You've seen each other, yes. So, so we know we exist. We know we exist. I manage, we were just talking about

the weather changes here. I managed to have a migraine the last night that we were there. So I did not make it. Drinking would have been the worst thing for me to do. But. Yeah. Oh no. I get migraines too. I get it. It's just the worst. Yeah, you just need to like, you know, be in a dark room and quiet and away from the world. Yes. And you can't always tell like sometimes if I get ahead of it, sometimes you can, sometimes you can stop it from getting worse. But you just, you never know. And it was, it was not a great. But we've been in the same room, not just the same internet. Exactly. Well, obviously, I love this series.

And this is the third in the series for anyone listening. With series, I always wonder, like, did you have any idea, like, where you, I know you don't always know if you're going to get to write multiple. But did you kind of have any idea where you were going to want to go with the characters in, like, book one or two? or does it kind of just come to you and you sit down to write the third one? It's a bit of a mixed bag. Yeah. I have ideas that, you know, like scenes or emotional terms that are interesting to me that I feel like I'm going to get to eventually. I feel like the first three followed a pretty clear pathway in the sense that, you know, you could read them all individually and have a good time, but they kind of work together, you know, where you can see the characters changing and growing and where.

You know, the first book is just following one character. The second book, you know, turns the lens a little bit, brings it the second character. And the third one, the same thing. I'll tell you what, it was actually the fourth one that, you know, my publisher has been pretty happy with the series. And they're like, you should write a fourth book. And I was like, cool. Yeah, sure. I got nothing.

Like, I was talking to my editor on the phone. And she's like, what are you thinking? I'm like, I'm thinking I better come up with an idea. And like, I had an inkling of one, but it was just not really. really coming together. And so I got married last September and then I went to Thailand for my honeymoon. And I made a promise to myself that like for the first vacation in like a decade, I was going to not take my laptop and I was not going to work.

Like nothing. I was going to read books and eat food and wander around and hang out in temples and just not do a thing. And I was there. I was in Bangkok for two days. And then it hit me. I was like, oh my God, I have the fourth book. And this is perfect.

This is amazing. And so I worked it out. Me and my wife were sitting at a bar on soy cowboy, which is like one of the red light streets in Bangkok, just like drinking beers and people watching. And by the time we got back to the hotel, she was exhausted. So I put her to bed and I went down to a noodle shop around the corner.

And it's like it's raining like the Bible said it rained. And I'm sitting there eating noodles and like typing out a synopsis on my phone. Because the entire thing just snapped right at the place. And I, so it's like it's a 12 hour time difference. So I send the synopsis to my editor. I go to bed. I wake up. I have any email from her.

She's like, that's awesome. Please do that. So, you know, it was, I was really worried for a minute there because I was like, I just, maybe I've used my allotment of words in this life. Maybe I've got nothing left. And then it's just like the whole thing was so fully formulated in my head for how it work. And I'll give you like a little tease. Yeah.

It's called city of killers. And the idea is that Bangkok is the unofficial retirement home for killers because your money goes really far because of the exchange rate. So if you've saved up a nest egg, it's going to last you a while. And, you know, it's a very big bustling city full of expats, full of tourists. So you could be a white guy and you could still disappear into a crowd there. So, and I won't say much more beyond that. But it is my agent finished reading it. And he was like, that was insane.

And then my editor has it. I should be getting notes any day now. And I'm super excited. It was a fun one. So you've written it or like the synopsis part, written it? No, it's done. Awesome. Well, this is usually, this one I turned in a little bit earlier than normal based on my release

schedule. It's usually you turn the book in about a year before it comes out. Yeah. So they can do editorial and then make it look pretty and then do all the promo stuff. And then, you know, reach out to people like you. so we can chat again. Yeah. And this book, though, I wrote it in like a month.

Like I came back from Thailand and I was so excited that I just knocked out the whole first draft and like over the course of December. Wow. And then kind of and I've been working on like a whole bunch of other stuff. So it was like, you know, went down for a bit, went back to it. And so I turned it in last month, which was like a month early, which is still pretty good. Nice. That sounds fascinating.

It almost reminds me, was that in the last, on Wick one. Obviously, there's guns and lots of killing compared to Assassins Anonymous. But the last one, yeah, because it was. It was kind of about him trying to retire and like how difficult that is. So I'm kind of excited to see your take on it now. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm, it's, it's it's it's a fun one. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, so well, with, uh, with three hitman and a baby, what was what was like the initial idea for that one? Yes. it was it was a couple of things the first was that I wanted to write something that was a bit of a rom because the first two books are dealing with some really heavy themes and I was like I just want to have

fun with this one and then halfway through the book I was like oh no this is getting really heavy again but I just thought it would be really funny I like having the whole appeal of assassins anonymous to me it was like taking all these characters who are ostensibly like really scary and really capable they're they're all deadly killers and putting them in a space where they have to talk about their feelings. Like, that was funny to me. Yes. And then with this one, it was the idea that, you know, there's a baby.

One of the members has to go do something. She doesn't want to leave the baby with strangers. Three of the members, Mark Astrid Booker, they're like, oh, we'll watch the baby. We're like three of the most capable people on the planet. Like, what can go wrong? And then, you know, spoiler alert and everything goes wrong. Yes. And not, and they had good intentions.

It's just they were unprepared for one particular thing. Like, kids are very different than traveling being an assassin. Yeah. And Astrid and Booker didn't have kids. I mean, Astrid had like an adopted kid who she had for a couple of years, but who was older. And Mark never really got to interact with his son. So it's like, you know, they're just not suited for like those emergency situations where it's like, what do you do? Like as a as a dad, like if I would like my daughter's 11. And my step son is 12. And so, so they're pretty easy at this point. They just want to like watch YouTube and, and snacks.

Yeah. But if confronted with an emergency with a, with a baby, I feel like I could, I can handle it. But I, I feel like if I didn't have that experience, no,

I would be in so much trouble. Right. So with that child. Yes. Yeah. I liked, I don't think it's very spoiler because it's, you know,

at the near the beginning too. But it was kind of funny. Like something happens. They have to take. to like an urgent care and they're like what's her last name and they're like uh because like the whole idea of anonymous was that they like don't even know each other's names so i thought it was really creative all the different ways you're able to like show like these kind of what you're saying these people are very capable in one specific aspect of their life but just like anything

if you've never raised a kid if you've never taken care of a kid like anything you haven't done you're going to be like, oh, I didn't even know to make sure I knew these specific things or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned how Mark, he does have a kid, but he's not a part of the kid's life because of some really, really sad stuff. I mean, I guess it's not spoilers if people are listening at this point. But he kind of finally was in love with someone. her brother breaks into their apartment he thinks someone's trying to kill them and so he essentially

killed essentially he does kill her brother um so then he like doesn't he doesn't get to have a relationship with his kid for that reason and what i thought was interesting too is we have like we have the three of them uh the astrid and booker and where did it go completely left my head uh the third one why is it not in my head um but basically they're they're watching a kid. And so they're kind of experiencing that. And then we're also juxtaposed with, because of some of the tensions that are arising,

Mark has to go back and actually connect with his family. So are those two like parallels intentional? Or did that kind of just like happen as you were writing it? It felt like it was important to, uh, to, to have these dual journeys where if Mark is going to be dealing with a kid on one side, like he at some point has to,

address the fact that he has a child with someone else on the other side. You know, like to leave that dangling for too long feels like a disservice to the reader because there's a degree to which you know, Mark is both suited to be a dad and not suited to be

a dad. And I kind of wanted to like work through that and see what the, like where that could take us. And I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I mean, you know, it might not be the last we see of them. But, you know, Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. That's one of those things that like, it's especially now, like, because the fourth book is in. And it's like, are we going to do a fifth? Like, I don't know. I mean, I hope people go out and buy multiple copies of this one. Yes. But yeah, it's such a weird process. It's like, it is fun to have all these little, like, dangling threads that, like, I can go back to if I want to.

But, you know, I was happy that I was able to return to this one for this book. Yeah. Yeah, and it's, there's, I'm glad you didn't like try to force the idea of like, oh, they can be a happy family together because it's, it's just not possible with everything that happens. Like, it's not just going to like get really happy all of a sudden, even though he obviously feels bad about what he did. Yeah. What was the other thing I was thinking about with that? Well, the other tension that's going on is basically someone that he kind of had to get a. favor from now is it this part's in the synopsis for everyone listening but now they're saying

that he needs to kill astrid essentially yeah or his family is in danger now um so like from the get go like i'm just like how is this even going to work itself out that tension was like so insane to even try to think of like being in the middle of that so was that was that part of the idea that kind of came to you or did basically how did that part kind of developed? I mean, that was the only plot point from the first book that I knew I was absolutely going to come back to. Because, you know, he, you know, in the first book, Mark needs information. He goes to this woman who was a Russian mobster and like former, you know, political operative.

And, and asks for a favor. And she's like, well, you know, you owe me one. And so it was like that was always going to come back because I also really liked writing that character. this Maya like she was just really you know a terrifying old lady is a fun character so um yeah that that was always part of the part of the plan and uh it was i was it was one of those things where like i knew i would come back to it and then it just kind of clicked into place when it was time to write this one yeah that makes sense and you've obviously written a series before um is there is there something you like are those kind of the things you really enjoy about writing a series is

how you can kind of think long term as well while you're writing a story? I do. You know, it's kind of a mixed bag, right? Like writing a series, you know, every subsequent book is like putting on a comfortable parachutes and you develop relationships with these characters. I love these characters. I love continuing to push them and find new areas in which to explore their personalities. You know, the thing that's kind of a struggle is that eventually you feel like you're inviting

people to a Tupperware party where it's like. you know, oh look, I did it again. Yeah. And, and, you know, the Assassin's books are doing pretty well. And, you know, the movies and, you know, slowly, slowly, slowly chugging along. Yeah. But the reality is, it's like, you know, less people bought the second book than bought the first. And, you know, we might have less people buy the third book than bought the second. So it's diminishing returns over time. And then creatively, too, you know, there are so many things that I want to work on that there's a part of me that's like, maybe I should, maybe I should hit pause on this for a little bit and move on to something else. Because I've got these other. projects I want to do. So it's a love-hate thing. You know, like I wrote the Ash McKenna books, which was like a punk rock, PI, private detective kind of thing. And I did five books in that series. And by the time I got to the end of that series, I was like, I'm never writing a series again.

And that's why I wrote The Warehouse and the Paradox Hotel, which were very specifically books that were meant to be standalone. You know, I have, because they were getting option for for film and TV and there were conversations about, you know, sequels or multiple seasons. I have thought a little bit about how to expand those stories. But at the end of the day, I don't feel called to do that unless I have to. With the Assassin's concept, it's so clearly supports a series because you've got all these different characters and you can stick them into different situations. And so it felt a lot more organic.

So, yeah, I mean, while I absolutely love it, I'm definitely hitting that point where I'm like, feel like I want to be doing something else for a little bit. Yeah. Do you feel like it kind of helps because you've co-written two novels in that time as well? Does it kind of help to have, well, and I guess detour is going to be or is a series as well, though. So I guess I can't say that's standalone either. But Dark Space isn't going to have a second one. No.

Okay. No. We actually, we floated the idea of a sequel to Dark Space. And Blackstone didn't budge. They weren't interested. But yeah, it does a little bit. You know, it's definitely a pallet cleanser and it's fun to work on something else. But then there is also that difference between, you know, I still put everything I have into detour and I loved writing it and I loved working with Jeff.

But it's like it's still not mine. Right, right. You know, it's not like the way I feel about a solo project versus a joint project, it's love on both ends. It's just it's a different kind of love. you know, if that makes any sense. You know, I could be a little less precious with a co-written thing because I know that, you know, Jeff might come in and be like, oh, I have this idea. And I would like, oh, my God, that's so much better than what I had.

Like, yes, let's do that. Whereas with my stuff, it's like, it's me on an island. And that's it. It's me against myself. So it just, it feels a little bit different. Yeah. I feel like, I mean, everything you write is at least definitely still fits in, under the thriller umbrella, but is there any like trope or genre that like you really want,

you would be excited to like get to write that you haven't written? Well, I mean, I've got two projects right now. One is out on submission. It's a nonfiction book. And it's on the culture and history of Muay Thai, which I would love to write that. I used to be a journalist and I miss nonfiction. So, and it would allow me. to go back to Thailand a whole bunch.

There you go. You know, it's a tough sell because I don't have like, you know, for a book like this, it would be better if I had like a professional. Like I've been training for years, but I don't have like a professional fighting background. I'm not an influencer like whatever. But we're going to give it a shot. Yeah. And then, you know, I told you earlier I was in my office today and I'm going to be here

probably until like sundown at least because I'm working on a middle grade fantasy, which is totally new for me. and that's a gift for my daughter. I remember you saying that because it's like some of like what her heritage is as well. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of rooted in Irish mythology. And I'm very excited.

And I wrote the draft. I sent it to my agent and him and a bunch of people at the agency read it. And they were like, this is really good, but we have notes. And it's not open heart surgery, but it's not outpatient either because, you know, this is the first time I'm writing fantasy.

It's the first time I'm writing middle grade. It's the first time I'm writing a narrative from the perspective of a 14-year-old girl. So there are things here that I'm learning as I go. And their notes were incredible. Like I can see what I have to do to this now to make it work. So that's kind of, I think it'll be done. I mean, this draft will be done this week sometime. If not today, then maybe in the next two days.

Yeah. And then from there, publishing is about to slow down. So, you know, my agent needs time to read. it needs time to go through more notes if we have to. So by this point, we're probably not going to start sending out until like September October. But yeah, it's, I would love for that to be a thing and just to finally be able to get my daughter a book that she can read.

Because she's a great little reader. Yeah. And, you know, and then I've got a project that I've got in the back of my head that would bring me back into like warehouse territory. That would be sort of like a very big speculative swing, like a very, very big swing. Like it's a very complicated idea that I've been grappling with for five or six years now. But I'm feeling like drawn to do it because there are parts of it that are becoming, you know, even more relevant that they previously were. So I feel that little bit of added pressure to be like, I got to get this stupid thing done.

Yes. That's the case of speculative fictions so frequently. And I feel like at least somewhat in regards to tech, at least, I feel like it is even more sped up. like you're kind of saying if you have an idea, then you have to write it for some people that might take a year. Then someone has to read it. Then like you're saying, then you have to go through notes. Then it's like it's probably not published for another one or two years from the time that you finish. And so then speculative fiction, you're like, I swear I was thinking about this before all of these specific events started happening. But it's the nature of it when you're kind of like thinking into

what the future could look like, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, my experience on Warehouse was that, you know, yes, there were some things in that book that were like very obviously like of the moment. But, you know, there were things in that book that ended up coming true like years later where it's like, you know, I think the book came out. And a year later, Amazon was talking about creating its own banking system for its employees. And I'm like, this wasn't a how to guide, fellas. Like, why are you doing this? So I think, and that's the thing. Like, a good spec fiction writer is going to be able to kind of like read the tea leaves a little bit and see stuff coming down from the end of the road.

Yes. I would necessarily call myself good. I would call myself lucky and also like obsessive about the news. So there were things that I was able to kind of see in the offing. And it bums me out that some of it came true because it's like, well, you know, we continue to live in a hellscape of late stage capitalism. But yes. I'm going to try to make some money off it.

I was having this almost the exact same conversation with the author of this book that just came out today, sublimation by Isabel J. Kim. And hers is about essentially, like, when you go through a border, it creates a copy of yourself that stays behind. So it tackles, she did so many things. It tackles like borders within like our personalities, like not literal borders that we think of, but also like political borders. So we were having the same conversation where I was like, I'm sure you wrote this like a couple years ago. And weren't in, I was like, America's never had their shit together with immigration and how we treat immigrants ever. But it's obviously gotten worse. And she was like, yeah, it's not exactly

something you excitedly are like, oh, I told you so about like, you don't want it to be coming true. But yeah, no. Like, you can kind of see it. Yeah, it's supposed to be a warning. Yeah. It's like, hey, this sucks. This is bad. Let's let's avoid this. And then, and then, and then we barrel into it, like, with reckless abandon. Yes. Yeah, it is. I love speculative fiction for all those reasons, but then sometimes, yeah, you do finish it. And even as a reader, you're just like, so a lot of us could see that this was where this was headed.

But yeah, where are you going to do about it? The other thing I love with this series, though, going back to Assassin's Anonymous, is, like, its action and it also has, like, comedy in it as well. like Astrid probably makes me laugh a little bit more than Mark does even, but he was even making me laugh so much in the first one. But like one random thing I loved is how she's like, thinks flavored coffee is terrible. And there's even like a line where I was like, this is exactly how I feel about it, like how it just ends up tasting like chemicals basically. Yeah. And she's kind of like sarcastic toward Mark because he just wants like everything to taste like sweet and like these like really intense chemical flavors. And so she has some like, I roll thoughts where she's like, well, of course, of course he's going to want that.

But there's like humor in both of their perspectives quite often. And I always wonder with like with books that are also like action thrillers, do you go through? Do you ever like punch up the comedy parts of it? Or is it kind of just like you know their tone and that's kind of how you're writing them? I mean, I just, I know their tone. I know how they speak. You know, there were there were a few points. my editor for this one was like, you know, okay, I was getting, because it's very much a two-hander

between Mark and Astrid. Yeah. And she was like, you know, I forgot which one of them was speaking, you know, at this point. So maybe think about that. There were a few instances of that. But when it comes to my side of it, you know, they do have distinct voices in the sense that Mark is like a total goofball and doesn't take anything seriously. And Astrid is like much more acerbic.

And she's the grown up in the situation. Yeah. But they're also very, very much both sides of my personality. Like, I hate flavored coffee. I can't drink it because it tastes like a chemical spill to make. Yes. But I have the palette of a toddler where, you know, if something is birthday cake flavored, I will try it. I know.

Like, I want everything to be birthday cake flavored. And I do, I did finally find a coffee roaster that makes flavored coffees that their roasting method is much more natural. Yeah. So it tastes like the thing it's supposed to taste like instead of coming. chemicals. And that's why like I stock up like I I but it's far away from me. So I go there and I stock up for like weeks at a time. Yeah. And but yeah. So they're both very much aspects of my own personality. So that makes it a lot easier to write. But also like I, you know, I think comedy is so important in books, especially when you've got books that are dealing with action or heavy emotion. Yes. Because comedy is a way to connect with the reader. And, uh,

You know, James Gunn, which is like the Guardians Galaxy movies, and he did the new Superman movie, he is the master at that, where he knows how to carry a dramatic moment. But he also knows when you have to punctuate it with a little bit of humor, because it's a pressure release valve. Yes. It's, you know, it kind of like, it relieves things a little bit,

it grounds it a little bit more. But also when you can laugh with someone, you like them. You want to be friends with them. And that's why you build such strong relationships with these characters. is because you if you can feel like you're in on the joke then it just it makes a huge difference it really does and it's like it's those little things that are also like memorable like they're even just like the coffee thing standing out to me um some of the comedy is what you like end up remembering more about like their personality because obviously there's the like external plot

and then like their internal plot and so some of those internal ones are the things that you remember like long after. Like even if you don't remember all of the like fight sequences that happened. I know you've talked about last or last year I think was when you talked about how like you kind of see action sequences similar to like musicals. And how like breaking into the action is kind of similar to like breaking into song and how it accentuates everything. Do you do you kind of like when you're probably like when you're revising

or editing, are there moments where you're kind of like, oh, we actually do really need action right here or we do really need humor right here? Or is it kind of like as you're writing that you notice those things? I think for the most part, I know what the big action sequences are going to be before I start writing the book. You know, I think of them as like set pieces, you know. And so So when I explain the the kung fu movie and musical thing, which I use a lot when I teach, it's how a good action sequence is like a good song where it's a moment in time. It exists almost outside of the narrative. It informs the narrative.

It moves plot. It informs character. But you can pluck it out and kind of like hold it. And it's its own thing. It's its own little story. And so I feel like I need those stories to tell the greater stories. So I'll know like, you know, in three headmen and a baby, it's like, like, well, I know that there's going to be an action sequence in the urgey care that they go to.

And I know there's going to be an action, like the final action sequence. Like I knew right from the jump where that was going to take place because I thought that would be so much fun. Yeah. And so all these little bits and pieces, they exist on their own and they build out the story. And I kind of needed to have them in my pocket before I started because then it feels like waypoints on a trip. That's what I was going to ask. Is it kind of your sort of the action scenes kind of. of your guideposts then. Exactly. It's like I know I have to drive to this point and then I have

to drive to this point and then I have to drive to this point. Okay. But I also know that I have to take a route that's direct enough that like I can do all the character development and I can do all the fun side stuff that I want, but I can't like start taking all these crazy detours and avoid it for too long. Right. Yeah. I can't remember. Do you outline heavily beforehand? Is that what that kind of, what that process is or is it just kind of like the loose like even just like the action scene outlines my my outlines it depends on the project you know like my my outlines for like the warehouse and paradox hotel were like 60 70 80 pages because then I'm dealing with like so much world building and like so much research and for this one uh there was far less outlining um like there was some

kind of like me banging out like you know those waypoints again just so I have a sense of direction. But because I know these characters and because I know a lot of what I'm dealing with, it's way, way, way easier. You know, the fourth one required a lot of outlining because it's dealing with a social issue.

It's dealing with a trafficking issue. Like, not sex trafficking, because I feel like sex trafficking is a little overdone. Yeah. And also, like, you know, I'm not a huge fan of reading about victimized women all the time or writing about them. But it's more like they're called pig butchering scams.

It's, you know, like the online scams, like when someone's trying to like rip you off for your passwords or whatever. And a lot of those are, a lot of those facilities are situated in Southeast Asia in countries like Myanmar and Cambodia. But then Thailand is kind of like the waypoint for these traffickers to get people. So it was really, really interesting and really relevant. but that took a massive amount of research because I was like, I need to understand how this works. I'm going to write about it because then I'm getting into like the political situation in Myanmar, which is, I don't think anyone understands it, like least of all the people who are currently embroiled in it.

So, yeah, for that one, there was so much more outlining because then it was like, I'm dealing with this social issue that needs to be weaved through the story in a way that makes sense. There's also a massive reveal in the fourth book that is a big gift. for bands of the series. And I'm not going to spoil it for you. But it is when I told my editor I was going to do it, she was like, oh my God, really. And I'm like, yep.

So it's going to be, it's going to be speculating over here for like a year. It's going to be a fun one. Yeah. That's cool. But yeah, so it's so yeah, that one took a lot of work. But it's the, the demands of the outlining depends on the demands of the story. So like this story just demanded so much more information. You know, the warehouse demanded so much.

But like assassins, Medusa protocol, like, those were pretty easy. Those were just like, you know, I could scratch out some stuff on a Google doc. And I'm like, yeah, this looks fine. I'm going to go with that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you ever surprise yourself while you're writing? Like, do you ever have the moments where when you're like writing from the outline and you're like,

oh, actually, like, this would be really good right here? Oh, absolutely. And I think that's really important to the process. Like there are moments where I'll hit a point. I'll be like, you know, I'm going to go down this road instead of that one. Yeah. And that joy of discovery is really, really fun. And the way I like to describe it is it's like, you know, I think of an outline as like an old school roadmap for if I was taking a road trip, you know, where I know where I'm starting.

I know where I'm ending. And then I'm sitting there and I have a route that I kind of have carved out that I know like I got to take I 80 to root 10 to. to whatever to get there. But then halfway through the ride, I might see a sign for the world's biggest bully arm. And it's like, oh, well, I want to go see that. And maybe it sucks. Like, maybe I go there and I'm like, that was a waste of a trip.

Or maybe I go there and I'm like, oh, my God, that was the coolest thing ever. So, you know, I always like to leave room for myself to drive off road a little bit if I have to. Yeah. But I do think, especially when you're working in the thriller space or the mystery space, where you've got sort of like expectations in terms of movement of the story that having an outline is really, really important. Yeah. This is something that I like I teach in an MFA program at Seton Hill University and this is what I'm always hammering into my new students.

I'm like, you have to outline. And they're like, but no, I'm a pancer. I need to have fun. And every single one by the time they get to the end of the term, they're like, that was a mistake. And I'm like, yes, I know. That's why I told you it was. Yes. You know, I actually think the ability to wing a book to pants it, as it were, is a very rare talent.

Some people can. I know a few authors you can do it. They even tend to say they write their first draft and then maybe outline after the first draft is what I also tend to hear. Yeah. And I know way more people who have failed at it than have succeeded at it. So aspiring writers out there, please for the love of God outlined. Just try to out. I don't know how I could approach something without even like I've I've heard people kind of talk about the like like tent pole concept too or it's like even kind of what you're saying with the action scenes is like they know five things that are going to happen to get from like the beginning to the end and they kind of call that a a plancer is what I've heard some people call it when it's a hybrid but I'm like you really were still outlining and like thinking about what you were going to go ahead.

right yeah no you you're not a hybrid it's like you know what it is it's it's it's sorting hat bullshit it's like everyone wants to be sorted to a house so they know where they belong it's it's it's it's that that's that's you know sorting hat syndrome was a thing after the harry potter books i mean it was always kind of a thing but like after the harry potter books then you had like you know veronica roth stuff like the allegiance books where it's like you are this type of personality because then it's like you don't have to decide for yourself you don't have to like figure anything out for yourself you've been assigned something and life is a little bit easier. Or like people use it to be like, well, I'm just, people do it with astrology too.

Like, oh, I'm just a Libre. I can't help it. People use it as like a reason to like not improve on their negative qualities. Yeah, which, you know, look, I, my, my wife is a is a professional tarot card reader. Yes. So I, I, I, I, it's not, it's not a problem in general. It's just when people just use it that way. Yeah.

Yes. No, I do believe that there's a lot there that's really, really interesting. But yeah, it's when people use this as a crutch or an excuse and it's like, you know, you're you're not a plancer. You're you're a plotter. And also we need to abolish the term pancer because it's stupid. It's annoying. Like it's, it's baby nonsense. And yeah, I just, you know, the thing that people always say, it's like, oh, well, I need to be a pancer because like it's like, it's the joy discovery. It's like, you know, figuring out the stories you go along. And it's like, you can. You can. You can. You know, And you could have your cake and eat it too. Like, I do that. Like, I discover things when I'm writing all the time. And I love it. And it makes it so exciting. But it also makes me excited to get to the end because the end of every book for me, there's one major point of catharsis that I'm working toward for both my characters and for me.

Because all of this is therapy for me. All of this is me trying to work something out in a particular moment. Yeah. You know, Assassin's Anonymous is very much about hitting my 40s and being like, you know, there are things that I've done that I'm very proud of. And there are things that I've done in my life that I'm ashamed of. And I want to be a good person. I want to be a better person for my daughter, for my stepson, for my wife, for myself.

But sometimes you sit there and you're like, is that even possible? Right. You know? And so the easiest way to answer that question was to explore through the lens of professional killers. You know, it just makes sense. Yeah. And, you know, and I need to, I need to know that moment that I'm working toward in order to successfully write a book. You know, like, and even if I don't have the ending completely nailed down moments and moment, I at least note that the emotion that I'm going for.

And if I, if I can get to that emotion, I can get to the release. And then it's good. And then it's going to be fine. Yeah. So and that's why, you know, and look, like everyone's different. But for me, I'm excited about reaching a moment. Yeah. Because I still. don't entirely know what I'm going to learn about the characters of myself in that moment, but I know when I get there, I will. Yeah. And it's, it's so, it keeps me engaged in the process and it makes it easier to finish. And I've heard from people who said that they, because I teach in an MFA program,

I do freelance editorial, I talk to aspiring writers all the time. Right. That they struggle to finish a project or they struggle with the ending. And I'm like, well, that's because you don't know what you're writing toward. Yeah. You know, every single second doesn't have to be blocked out. that's the point of writing the book. You get to that. But, you know, I had this student once who, she wasn't one of my students. She wasn't one of my mentees, but she was like, hey, I'm writing a book

that's kind of speculative. It's kind of like the warehouse. Can we sit down in the cafeteria at lunch and can I talk to you about it? And I was like, yeah. And so we're talking about it. And she's hitting me with all these ideas and all these things that she's throwing into the book. I'm like, okay, well, let me ask you a question. Why are you writing this? And she just went blank. And she's like, I never thought of that. And I'm like, you should. Yeah. I want you, I want you to think about that. Think about why this is the story that not only you need to tell, but only you can tell. Yes. And like, that's the only thing that matters here. Yeah. And it's, it's why. Why is such an important question. Yeah. I don't know if you watch hacks, but they just covered that in like the penultimate episode where the Hannah's Hannah Eindender's character, it pitches.

something and it it's like she it's kind of like the gist of it is like uh like how her generation basically like housing isn't very available like all of those things that are like at least somewhat related to her and her age and the person pitching is like but why are you the only one who can write this so you and hacks are on the same i i love that show i loved it so much i I watched the season finale like a day or two ago. And yeah, I was, you know, I really, I mean, out of respect to people who haven't seen it yet, I kind of wish they had gone fully through with the idea that was carrying the episode because that would have been so ballsy and so, so the ending, like, even though the ending

left me satisfied, it still felt like a slight bit of a cop out in terms of what they were building to. Because that would have been daring and I'm a big fan of daring. I am too. And an agency, like truly allowing the people you love to have agency. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there, there were a couple of moments in that episode that just broke me. I was trying so hard. Yeah. It was, it was such a smart, funny show. And yes. You know, there was a degree to that there was, there was a fantasy aspect to it because it's like, you know, no, no, the right people never went at the ends. It is. You're right. There is a fantastical element to it. Because. a lot of the show is pushing up against systems and it's very difficult for individuals to

to win against systems yeah but i mean that's also why we watch stories is because you know we we we want that fantasy of like the good guys actually winning from time to time because they so rarely do they do they do or don't either way um well my last question related to uh assassins the the the fun of the series is the fact. I mean, there's lots of it, but one of the core parts of the whole series is they can't, they can't or they are choosing not to kill people. So you have to be creative with action and how they get out of situations. And I was thinking about it as I was reading with with three Hitman and a baby with a baby there. I feel like that also had to add to the creativity of action sequences as well. So was there was. Was. Was. Was that happening when you were kind of like building the action sequences, especially with the ones who are with the baby as well? To a degree, yeah. You know, I knew right from the jump that I didn't want to put the baby in mortal danger at any point

because that's just that feels both cheap and kind of gross for me as a dad. And we all probably would know the baby wasn't going to die. Yeah, the baby's not going to die. But, you know, that's actually one of the fun things about the series is that, you know, anyone can write, shooting someone in the head is really easy. Yeah. But when you're when you're dealing with, you know, there are so many layers to it because you have these characters who are, you know, they've taken a pledge of not killing, but not a pledge of nonviolence. You know, like they will hurt people if they have to. You know, there are things that they'll avoid because, you know, they don't like using weapons that have like like a stun setting, like a like a stun gun or whatever. Because in very rare instances that can induce cardiac arrest. And for them, it's like, well, you know, even if it happens, it's still on me because I made the decision to use that. So they all have like their own guideposts in terms of what recovery means to them.

But then I get to like challenge it because, you know, when I when I first conceived of the series, you know, it was always my intention to take it seriously because recovery is a serious thing. And I went to a couple of friends to talk to them about it who were in recovery. And I floated it past them and they were like, this sounds like it could be really cool. but you have to remember that this thing saved my life. So you can't treat it like a gimmick. And I was like absolutely cool. But the reality is that sometimes people fall off the wagon. Sometimes people leave recovery.

So, you know, playing in that space too of, you know, and then also the kind like when you're protecting someone like what do you put on the line? You know, like at what point do you say, you know, okay, this one I might have to take a pass on. Like this one I might have to compromise myself because it means saving somebody else. Right. And it's just that there's so many, and again, going back to writing a series, that's the thing that's rewarding about this is that there's so many different directions that I can go here. It's never a straight line. It's never black and white. And then even in the fourth book, we get into some stuff where, you know, Mark starts having to make compromises in order to extricate himself from a very dangerous situation. And so, and then I'm sitting there like, Jesus Christ, like I hope he can keep it together. Like I know I'm looking. I'm looking at. Like, I know I'm looking. one making this up but geez beating him up morally yeah but but it also it adds a fun layer to when i'm building out the scenes because then i start doing research on so like at the end of three hitmen when they do that big final assaults and um the like the one weapon that that curation takes um that that

that's a real thing and so it's like so i spend a lot of time researching like non-lethal weapons things that were developed for crowd control like things that are not going to kill somebody and it's always a fun part of the process because it's like again shooting someone in the head with a gun really easy figuring out how to like take down a room of 20 people without killing anybody like way more difficult way more complicated yeah it is it is it's like the fun part of reading it too because it's it's not like other it like even just that makes it so different than other action thrillers where you're like how how in the world is he or she going to get out of this situation well I obviously, I love this series. And as of the day that this is airing, everyone can go buy it. I loved the audio. I think I was telling Rob Off Air.

This was the first one that I got to listen to. And it was very fun via audiobook too. So if anyone loves audiobooks like me, I highly recommend that. I do always ask at the end, though, if there's anything you've read recently that you loved, or if there's anything that you just like always recommend to people. Oh, man. See, I always feel like it's funny when I get asked this question because then like my brain goes completely blank in terms of whatever reading. But I've been doing a better job of like posting about stuff on Instagram.

I did recently, you know, I recently read Wake Up and Open Your Eyes by Clay McLeod Chapman, who is really, really awesome. And a cool little indie book called Lover Girl by Nicole Selu, which is really good. And then this was fun. There's a book by Annie Jacobson called Phenomena that's about the history of CIA experiments with psychokinesis and remote viewing and telepathy. And according to the CIA, it exists. It's just very rare and very difficult to control. But the really, really, really cool book. Yeah, that sounds fast.

And then I'm currently trying to read Watership Down, but I've got so many work things I have to do. that I've been reading in like very little bits and pieces. Yeah. Yeah. I figured it's it's got to be different like shifting into reading someone else's work while you're writing your own. It doesn't bother me so much. It's just, you know, I.

It's the time constraint. And then also like I've got like five books that I have to read for like blurbs or events at the next like, you know, a couple of weeks. I've got research books that I have to read like I'm reading a book on the history of storytelling right now. and I'm sitting there highlighting. And it's like, I miss my, I miss my cute little rabbits. I want to find out if they're okay.

Yeah. It's hard to read for pleasure. A lot of my reading feels like homework reading. I get that. I had to, not the same, but similarly, I was like, I can't request everything on net gallery. This sounds interesting to me. Yeah.

Because I'm also a mood reader. So that's like also the like, sometimes you really do get to a point. You're like, I'm not, I'm not in the mood for Gothic sadness right now. But I have to. But I mean, it's obviously overall, like, blessings sound so churchy. But like, I'm grateful that I have access to books as well at the same time. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. Well, where can people follow you? Because you have lots of updates. I do. I'm on my website is rob wheart.com where you can find anything you might need. I'm most active on Instagram, which is RobWR1. And then I've got to a substack where I, you know, update people or just write about random writing stuff or things that I read recently that I liked. Yeah, perfect. Well, I'll put those links in the show notes

and I will be thinking about what's happening in Bangkok for the next year. I will, I will make sure that as soon as we get the galleys and we'll get one out to you. It is, uh, I'm, I'm excited for this one. Nice. I mean, I'm excited for all of them, but it's, it's, it's the fun part about promo. It's like, I'm so, so dug into the world of the fourth one. Yes. And like I'm sitting here being like, what did I write in the third one? What happened again? Yeah.

Yeah. Like don't even ask me about the first one. I barely remember. I know. I know. Same at this point. Yeah. But yeah, I'm excited.

We'll hear from you next year. Or maybe before. We'll see.