Bookwild - Toxic Masculinity and Female Rage: Katherine Greene's Where the Truth Lies

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

This week, I talk with writing duo Katherine Greene, aka Claire C. Riley and A. Meredith Walkters, about their new small town thriller Where the Truth Lies! We dive into: Writing a thriller inspired by real-life events and the challenge of balancing fiction with truth How this story came from Abbi’s family history and a decades-old newspaper clipping The emotional difficulty of writing characters based on real people vs. fictionalizing them Crafting multiple POVs + dual timelines to build tension and a fuller picture of the crime Exploring toxic masculinity and how it develops, including how “nice” men can be influenced The concept of the “perfect victim” and how readers often unfairly judge women vs. men Where The Truth Lies Synopsis A picture-perfect couple's sordid past threatens to rock a sleepy southern town to its core. Told in alternating timelines and inspired by real events, this multi-POV thriller explores toxic masculinity, gender-based violence, and female rage in the tradition of Darby Kane. Childhood sweethearts Rhett and Lucinda seem to have the perfect marriage, the child they always wanted, and even the white picket fence. But fifteen years ago, the couple came very close to losing everything. When outsider Jennifer Moore arrived in their tight-knit Kentucky town, a brief but explosive affair between the newcomer and the soon-to-be-married Rhett stirred up a violent storm of betrayal that ended with a dead body and a mystery riddled in corruption and deception. Now, new evidence has surfaced-including an eyewitness who places Rhett at the scene of the brutal crime. Soon, the carefully constructed life Rhett and Lucinda built starts to crumble-and the truth waiting beneath the surface could destroy them both. In a town steeped in deadly southern charm, secrets don't fade-they fester. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This is we got to talk with the writing duo that is Catherine Green about their newest thriller Where the Truth Lies. It is so good. If you are looking for messy small town mystery drama, this is what you need. Here's what it's about. I'm doing shorter synopsies now so that you can just get the gist of it and don't have to hear everything if you don't want to. A seemingly perfect marriage begins to unravel when new evidence resurfaces around a long buried crime tied to a violent affair, that shook a small Kentucky town 15 years earlier. As past and present collide, buried secrets, corruption, and simmering rage threatened to expose the truth and destroy everything Rhett and Lucinda have built.

This was inspired by, it is not a retelling or a direct telling. This was inspired by a crime that one of the authors knew about from one of their families. And it just has all of those small town vibes that you're looking at. for in thrillers. There are a lot of trigger warnings. They do put them at the beginning so you can see what those are before you dive in. But I just loved how they covered toxic masculinity and feminine rage, some of my favorite topics, as you know. So that being said, let's hear from them. I am so excited because I know a lot of you loves my interview with writing duo Catherine Green for the Lake of Lost Girls. And now I have Claire and Abby here again.

again to talk about where the truth lies and it is a wild ride. So thanks for coming back. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Well, what I always want to know about like when when you've written books previously, basically, was there anything different about writing this book with each other compared to the other two you wrote together? I think because this one is sort of loosely based on true events. I think we had to be really, I mean, obviously we're always kind of, I mean, the whole point of the Lake of Lost Girls was kind of showing obviously the way crime and true life is kind of represented within podcasts and how to kind of, you know, we all need to be really careful

how it's represented. But I think because this story in particular was, is based loosely on true events, I think we had to kind of tread even more carefully because of that. So I think it was a very fine line between obviously making it dramatic and making it exciting, but also kind of being really tactile with it. I think that's because I think we got about halfway through and I think that's when we decided to put in chapters from Jen's perspective to kind of start on the narrative and kind of give a voice to, you know, the victim. Because I That's kind of what we try and write about all the way along, isn't it? Yeah.

Giving voices. Yeah. I think for me, because the story is actually something that happened in my family from back in the 70s and it's where the idea came from. And when it was hard to, obviously it's a work of fiction, like Claire said, it's inspired by. But for me, that line became really difficult because I was in my head. I saw the players. I saw the people that certain characters are based off of.

So it was difficult for me at times, which is where Claire is invaluable because she pulls me out of when it becomes too real. Right. And so that was different because this is an idea that I had been circling around my head for like decades. Wow. And when we were thinking about coming up what the next Catherine Green book was, before I moved to the UK, my grandmother gave me just a bunch of stuff.

and one of them was a scrapbook. That one of them was a gracious scrapbooker. And it was a lot of newspaper clippings and things like that. And I found this old yellow newspaper clipping from like 77, something like that. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I remember when Claire and I, because we had started talking about different books, what we were going to write, and I took a picture of it, and I sent it to her. I was like, check this out.

And she was like, yes. So, yeah, so that fine line between fiction and reality was, I think, very hard. for me this time. Because I would get stuck in the mud about certain characters. Be like, no, they wouldn't do this. And they'd be like, yeah. It's not supposed to be fiction. You know, it's not.

Right. Like it's documentary or it's not like an autobiography. So that was, that was a tricky part for me this time. Oh, I bet. Yes. So the inspiration, oh, I'm hitting my mic. The inspiration came from a story. It sounds like from your family as well.

So was that like the initial idea that you guys had for this book? Yeah, yeah. It's an unsolved crime in real life. And it happened to people that I know. It involves people that I knew. And so, yeah, it was very, it's a complicated story. But we were able to create more layers to it. Obviously, and the town is different.

There's a lot of, lots of differences, very loosely based. Yeah, I think we were just looking for something that kind of had that, that, what's where I'm looking for? It's that foundation with realism. And I think that it kind of, it gives it a bit more layer, I think, layering. Well, we were halfway, well, not halfway, but we were about 20,000 words writing a different book. And we were all kind of doing it, but we were like, I don't know, for me, it wasn't clicking. And I didn't realize Abby was feeling the same way. And then one day we were like, dude, this isn't working. And I was like, it's really not.

Like, I really like the idea, but just something, I don't know, it just, and I do think we'll go back to that because I do really like the idea. I just don't think right then. And then we were like throwing ideas back and forth. And then Abby was like, what about this?

And sent me this pitch. And I was like, yes. That is really cool. You can just kind of like start from there. You did mention that, It sounds like you added Jin's POV later in the writing. And one of the things that's unique about this one is we do have multiple POVs and dual timeline going on, which I love keeping track of things that way. That makes my brain feel really locked in on a story.

Did you go into it wanting to structure it that way? Or did that kind of develop as you wrote it? We're like, we don't know. I think always kind of we were going to take a character each and then we were always going to do the back and fourth time and I really enjoy doing that and I think it's a really nice way to kind of piece a story together like an unsolved crime because you've been the narrative built up and also kind of witnessing it from the past perspective which which I know like for me I like reading that sort of thing because I that fully rounded picture. And then I think, again, there was still something missing. And then when we decided to do chapters from Jen's POV, I think it was you, Abby, that suggested that. And then you wrote that prolog, and I was like, that's it.

That's the one. Yeah. Yeah, because I think with the story itself is very heavy. And, I mean, we can be honest. Lucinda and Rhett are not the most likable characters. They're not meant to be. You're not supposed to like them particularly. They're layered.

There's stuff going on. And so with Jen, we felt like the reality of the story is about this young woman who died. And it's like her voice was getting lost and kind of all that unpleasantness. So it felt important to put that in there because at the end of the day, this is about a person he's been murdered. And they, that voice needed to still be there to kind of layer out all the really dark stuff that happens. So, I mean, it's dark. Her story is dark, but it needed to be there. Yeah.

I totally see that. you know, it's glad that we got it. Um, so we're kind of talking about it, but the book does explore toxic masculinity and, uh, like, gender-based violence. For anyone who picks it up, there are, there are the kind of trigger warnings at the beginning of it. So you can read those if you have some that would be triggering. Um, and so what was it like writing a story where you really wanted to, kind of like you're talking about, one of the darker parts is in relation to. toxic masculinity. Well, for me, I think it's

so relevant to what's I don't know about over in the US, but definitely in the UK. It's a huge thing that's happening in the UK at the moment. And this show is like adolescence, which has come out and then the Lewis's two documentaries just come out about this

you know, the monosphere and this toxic masculinity. And then obviously there's the whole awful Andrew tape pandemic. And I really kind of wanted to pick up on that because it's so relevant to what's happening right now and kind of see it through everyone's eyes, not just from, you know, the woman's eyes. You even see it from from Rett's side and how easily he's manipulated into becoming this person because he actually, I quite liked him

at the start. He started out of the night. I didn't really see that he was doing anything wrong because it was innocent to him until he starts being influenced and it shows how easily that happens. And then Jen's POV, obviously it shows how easily she's manipulated into going back into that sort of relationship. You've got Lucinda, who's just there all along, just like, I just want to get married, guys. I just want someone to see me and love me. And it's really hard because they're not likable characters,

but they didn't necessarily start out as unlikable, like especially Rhett. I think he twisted his direction. And then Lucinda, actually, I hope by the end, people kind of really see her for who she is and begin to like her. Because it's, you know, it's a huge thing that's happening in the world around now. And I don't think it's something that can be just explained away with a couple of lines. It's really something that you have to see from multiple perspectives. So dark. Yeah, I think, sorry.

I think she was Lucinda that was important because it was interesting because we have a beta. reader that we use. And she read this, the first iteration of it. And she came back and she was like, I love him. I hate Lucinda. I think Rhett should have gotten, you deserve so much better and all of this. And I went back to Claire and I was like, this is

no. Oh, no. And we realized that. Also, I felt like it pointed to a bigger conversation how easy it is to side with the man because he's nice or he's charming. Yep. Lucinda wasn't the perfect victim. You know,

And there's that whole concept of the perfect victim. What do they look like? Why should they be? Jen embodied more of the perfect victim than Lucinda did, but they were both victims. And the idea that how easy it was to not like Lucinda, but to like Red, and it was like, that was very interesting, I think. I mean, we tweaked it quite a bit afterwards because I felt like, you know, Claire and I both were like, well, maybe we need to be more in your face about it.

But I think it kind of like. I'm like, well, it's, how can they like it? I know. Well, it's reminding me of the discourse around Tell Me Lies, the TV show adaptation, because there's so many people who hate Lucy and almost think she's worse than Stephen. I don't love Lucy, to be fair. If I were her friend, I would be saying a little bit more than her friends were saying, never did I dislike her and never did I think she was the big problem. So it, like, it is kind of

so ingrained. It's so easy for us or us for society to like go towards the man or hate the woman inequally. Yeah. Yeah. It's that internalized. Yeah. To internalize. Yeah. We're all guilty of it. You know, I find myself to do it in doing it when I'm watching shows and stuff. And I'll be find myself being annoyed probably unfairly with the woman. And it's like, no, no, no, no. And I love Tell Me Lides. Oh, it's so good. And when I saw the online discourse about the final season and about how people

were treating Lucy, I'm like, no, she is not worse. Stop it. No. Yeah. I think it's very easy to blame the woman. Yeah, but reacted out like that because she, you know, Lucinda just wasn't very nice and well Jen's the one in the wrong because you know she knew well she she didn't know she's you know I mean and I think the reviews that are coming through and the comments that I get because

I was I do all the Instagram and the comments that we get through it is very much like blaming the the women a lot more than him and I'm like oh gosh it's like well I hate him gosh you're missing the eye opening and I hope for me it opens these conversations um that people can have and uh you know really discuss yeah how bad it is yeah yeah no I completely agree um there is like obviously their marriage to a lot of people in this small town really seems super perfect um and there's that's obviously not what's actually happening and that might have been part of of the inspiration for the story already that it was a couple like that but were you wanting to kind of examine a couple who looks really perfect but actually is very far from it well i say to my

my children all the time if you look at the snapshot of you know what you see on instagram or what you see on facebook and what you see on all these social medias everything looks so good and everyone's like oh they're doing so well and look how where they're going on holiday look what they're doing look but that's literally just a snapshot of that one moment that that doesn't tell the full story and it's kind of the same with their marriage from the outset everything looks perfect they've got everything they want they've got the white picket fence they've got you know the careers the house the marriage the child but actually it's all toxic and it's toxic from the start all the way to the end and so I think it's really important to kind of for everyone to kind of see that the things are never how they seem

and I think that's quite obviously like a big thing in thrills anyway isn't it right right yeah it definitely is um so the other thing is it's a very small southern town and i feel like there is a difference when scandals happen and kind of like a very close-knit town um compared to like being in a big city so can you kind of talk about like developing the setting which also almost feels like a character. Well, I think we've always, since we, Claire and I started writing as Catherine Green, every book we write, we've set out the town as a character unto itself.

And there's something about the claustrophobia you get in a small town that I think is a unique experience. It doesn't matter if you're in America in the UK, wherever, that small town vibe is the same. You know, everyone's in, everyone's business. You know, you can't get away with anything. And I think that that's also why we had the text messaging, the images in the book, because it's like how quickly everyone's like, oh my God, did you hear about this? Did you hear about in the way that works in a small town is so different than in a city because everyone knows each other. Everyone's in each other's pocket. And I think that for us, setting is such a huge

part of the storytelling. And we want to convey the darkness. The, the, the, the, the, the, layered responses from people the you know the feeling like everyone's in your business because I think most people can relate to that on some level so that's kind of where we've always gone with it yeah that makes sense um there's also a lot of female rage from multiple angles in this book um and I know sometimes it's hard to make it feel like authentic or earned or whatever not always for me. I'm always a fan of female rage, but can you talk about like the need to include that like in this conversation in a book that's in a conversation about toxic masculinity as well. Listen, we're both mid-40 women. Okay. We have a lot of female rage.

Yes. So we can tap into that very easily. I think it's really important to share from like Lucinda's point of view as she gets older and you know in the sort of present chapters for her and how angry she is over everything and I think they were in some ways some of the easiest chapters to write because we were both really angry for her

because we deal and as a woman itself We deal with this kind of stuff on a daily basis. And any woman that gets to our age that says that they don't, you've got to be wearing blinkers because I get it on a daily basis from random people, from people I know, from people on the internet, it's female. And we live in this kind of society. So it was important to include it. And I don't think it's particularly kind of difficult to tap into.

Yeah, it was funny because while we were writing, I had this experience. This just kind of encapsulates it. I was walking to work. I had my headphones on, right? And I'm walking by in this man, this older man stopped me. And he's talking to me. And I had my headphones once. I took it off.

I was like, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. And he's like, I think you should smile more. Oh, my gosh. My God. Rage just filled me. Yes. And I will say I looked at him and I told him why I just don't feel like smiling at you. And then I just kept walking.

I love that. A little moment, but it's like as women, you deal with that stuff all the time, like this idea of who you should be, what you should be doing, what you should be wearing, what should you be smiling more. And it becomes like, it's so consuming. And I think that especially in this, especially where we are. is the society now where you have like the manosphere and you have like this rise of this what's always been there but the misogy that's in your face all the time it felt important to to show that you have this toxic masculinity but then you'll also but that gives birth to this this is women we're angry we're pissed off we're sick of being felt feeling it made to feel certain

way and like Claire said we're parapetopausal women we are just tired of it so it's like this is outlet. Yes. Yeah, I totally feel that. So the other part, like, it really is, there are quite a few reveals. And so we're definitely trying to figure out everything as we're reading it. Do you ever have to, like, think about the balance of, like, having some clues or some, like, breadcrumbs earlier on that would then kind of lead to the reveal. How do you balance keeping like the tension and having like a few clues in there? Sorry, off, Claire.

So we do, we always do the outline. And as we're doing the outline, we always put in like, the breadcrumbs that we do. But then generally, as we're writing, we'll figure out extra bits that we put, you know, that need putting in to kind of like make it a little bit more obvious. And then usually again, when we get feedback, and we're like you liked him I'm sorry we need a big clue here we'll go back and

we'll thread more things through but generally like me it's funny because me and I'll be right completely differently don't we and I'm very much a plotter I plot everything from like start to finish I want to attract so I know where I'm going and then when the story can kind of veers off I can kind of pull it back and I do files with characters and love decisions and quotes that were putting through so nothing gets forgotten because, again, as Abbey said, there's perimenopods of women. My memory's awful. Whereas Abby's more of a and she generally writes the end of a book first. So it's kind of. Yeah, we write very, very differently. But I think we do it really, really well now. Although you do still fight me on it. I thought we need to do the outline.

one. I do well. Yeah. It's like I've been a lot. No, no, no, no, no. In the outline. Yeah, she's like a stickler for it. She'll be like,

I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm really bad. Go on. Go on, go on, go on. Yeah. Sorry, I know I'm like delaying a bit. It's okay.

But yeah, no, I'm, because I'll write, like, I'm really bad for like, I will be in the process and I'll be like, oh, we should add this here. And I will forget to put it in. And then Claire will come on it and she's like, that, where does that come from? Usually she's very happy with it. But it's like I do sneak things in sometimes.

So it can, yeah, but we do go back and add bits here and there. And we're big on breadcrumbs. So, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. The other thing that I thought was, oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, I'm not much of a stickler that generally, if we're writing and then obviously in the flow of a scene, you just kind of go with it.

You're like, let just do it. See what happens. and you write it along and then I'll then re-edit my outline to kind of work that back in. Because otherwise, I sort of think when we go back through it later, it won't make any sense. So when I go back through Abby's chapters and I'm like, dude, you put extra bits in that. I don't know what's happening. And then I have to go back and edit all the outlines. I know of it.

I'm like, dude, stop trying to slip in. Right. Well, the other thing that I noticed as I was reading it, I think it's a couple factors, but we have multiple POVs and we're in different timelines. But as the reader, you kind of, there's some like crazy making as the reader where you're like, wait, who do I trust? Wait, which perspective is more correct? And then sometimes you almost feel like you're being gaslighted even as the reader.

And I feel like it, for me, it functioned really well because that had to be. how the characters stuck in in this toxic masculinity problem felt was that intentional or do you think it just kind of came out in the writing well i mean at the end of the day we're writing thrillers so we don't the idea is you don't trust anyone but um yeah i think that we really wanted to get into these heads of these characters where it's like who do i trust in these situations especially in the and as far as jen goes that the young girl I mean, she's surrounded by snakes left, right and center. And, you know, in the early days of writing it, we didn't have as many of the suspects going on,

but they were like, no, we need to just keep adding more, more, more, more. We just need to, because the idea is you want to be so confused, so befuddled, so off balance, that you don't know which way you're turning. And I think that that, for me personally, that's the best type of reading experience. I think it's very much trying to kind of make the reader feel like, Jen would in that she couldn't trust everyone and she didn't know where to turn and every time she was like oh no I can trust you then something had happened like a red herringman she was like oh I don't know and I think we wanted that kind of confusion for the reader as well which sometimes works and obviously

sometimes doesn't because different readers right people don't like that and it's funny because obviously me and abbey we always try and write what we would read what we would like because I think that's the best way to do it and and we both kind of love that confusion as a reader and kind of putting that into the characters i think is really important as well so yeah it was it was it was intentional but i don't think we meant to do it i think it's just something that always happens. Mm-hmm. Gaslighting the readers.

Yes that makes sense um and it you've kind of talked about it she like giving jinn the chapters to get her perspective as well um but she is also truly the outsider. Like she does show up in a town that she hasn't lived in before. And was that probably intentional too? Like she couldn't be someone who had been in the town. Like she needed to be a true outsider for this story. Yeah, well, that came from the actual true. Oh, yeah. That it was someone, it was an outsider. So that's kind of where it started.

But I don't think it would have had the same effect anyway if, if, if, would have been someone from the town. Right. Because they would have already been intricated into the, into the town. And I think it was that mistrust of everyone there

with her as well, because they were like, what are her intentions? Why is she here? What does she want? So I think it had to kind of come from that whole mistrust of outsiders coming in to something. And also, I think, too,

because she didn't have those connections to anyone and made it easier for her death to kind of be explained away. And like how often does that happen? You know, it's the most vulnerable in society that sometimes it's so easy to dismiss. And I think that that, because if she had been connected to people that the reader, that the characters cared about, then her, her murder would have been more of a front focus. So it was able to go cold a lot quicker because, because of that reason. Yeah. Yeah. The other, the themes that I was at least noticing were kind of the topics that were covered is like what is truth, what is justice, and like kind of like what will you do in order to

survive? And do you think that was just again, kind of just like the nature of this story was going to cover those topics? Or were you kind of interested in like exploring how justice can look a lot of different ways? Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think that it kind of naturally unfolded that way because of the nature of the story we were trying to tell. I think Claire and I, when we set out to write a Catherine Green book, we want to something, like, there's certain things we want to touch on. And for this book, you know, there was the toxic masculinity piece. There was the female rights, but it also very much how the justice system fails and how people,

and you see that so often in small towns, how, because of the old boys network. I mean, I come from a town very much like this. And it's all in the connections in who you know and to the detriment of a lot of people who are harmed by that. So I think that, yeah, so this book, we have some ideas of what we wanted to, where we wanted it to go to themes, the overarching themes. But then a lot of it does come out just as we're writing it. And it kind of lends itself to the greater conversation that we're trying to have with whatever we're writing. Yeah, I think it is very much that. what you consider justice as well, isn't it?

I think it's really important. I don't want to say too much because I don't want to spoil it for your listeners. But like the ending was very much kind of written afterwards. And that was that was mainly you because I was like, that's it. It's great. We're done. And you were like, no, no, I want more. I want more justice.

And that last section, I was like, okay. It is like what you consider justice and, and, and, you know, And sometimes what technically is justice isn't and vice versa. Yeah. But it depends kind of where your morals lie and actually who you try to get justice for. Yeah. Were there any characters that were like difficult to kind of figure out or difficult to write? Well, it sounds like maybe the ret revisions would be the thing that needed to be redone.

He was much too likable to start with. Yeah. much too likable. I think it's because we were trying to be really subtle with him. Like, we're really what in that evolution of how easy it is to manipulate someone. And to fall into that, you know, that kind of thinking. But then obviously, yeah, it was a little bit too subtle because she still liked him. I was like, no.

She was like, wanted more romance with him and Jen. Yeah. My dog at the time when you were sending me those messages and I literally stopped. I was like, what? Oh, my God. She is a childhood friend of mine. She knows, like, we're from the same town. So she gets a lot of the dynamics that we write about.

But even now, my girl, come on. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, man. I feel Marty. There's a character, Marty, in this book, who's a character, Marty in this book, who's a friend of rats. I found him difficult. I didn't particularly like writing him, but for reasons that readers will see. But yeah, he was a tough one. Yeah. Yeah. I really struggled with Lucinda's parents,

actually. Because I think, like, for her father, obviously, he just wanted to protect his little girls. Yeah. But obviously, protecting them also meant kind of protecting himself and his family name. And it was kind of that whole thing of justice and truth and what was important to him as well. And I really struggle with them because I don't know, I'm very, I really wanted to write a really mean character. But I had to kind of keep trying to soften him a little bit. And the same with the, you know, the mom, she's like really quite brusque at the start. But then at the end, she's all about the granddaughter. She's just wants to look after the granddaughter.

And hopefully it's, you know, me just kind of see that it was because she kind of realized. the mistake she'd made with their own daughters and I can't do this again so yeah it's really hard I'm trying to be really slow I know I was like it's hard to respond and not to give any spoilers oh my gosh well I I really enjoyed it um I had a lot of fun with it I did if it feels it feels darker than like like of lost girls even though like like of lost girls is still a thriller and has its dark moments, but this one is like extra bleak. And I wondered about the title that I thought was kind of cool because it kind of functions lies can be kind of played with. So it's like where the truth lies, is it where it's laying for lack of a better term? Or it can kind of be interpreted as

sometimes the truth is lying a little bit. So is that your guys' intention or how involved are you with the title? That was David. title that we started with. Oh, nice. Yeah. So, and we, obviously when we submit the book, the publisher always comes back, they were like, right, okay, can you give us a list of,

you know, 10 to 20 different titles? And we're like, we're really like that one. Please. Yeah. And they, they were like, fought us all the way along, didn't they? Until the end, we were like, look, we really, really kind of believe in this title.

We really think it works. It's a play on work as well as, yeah. and eventually I think they relented and that's good because I like it it's really hard you know because we'll come up with loads of different titles don't we and and it's it's for hard doing titles anyway and they're like yeah we think we've picked like this amazing title and they're like okay give us 10 to 20 more and you're like I'm sorry and that's and I'll be honest I hate the most I hate I hate coming on with titles I've always struggled in my

in my career coming up with titles. It's like the bane of my existence. So I'm like, come up with all of these. And we're like, oh, my God. Yeah. Well, I think it worked very well for it. And I do think, I think people, who was it that I put in my comps? If you like Lucinda Berry stories, Jamie Lee Hendrix, like, I think you will love this one as well.

I do always ask at the end if there's anything you've read, recently that you loved or a book that you recommend to everyone anytime. Wow. Well, I just finished reading. I'm too old for this. Oh, yeah. I've been reading that on and off. I think, and I finally, because I haven't had a lot of time for reading,

I read that. Yeah. I don't have I read. That was a good one. That was very fun. I think what else I've read recently. Claire, are you? read all the time. What have you read?

I'm reading two, three different books. I'm only listening to one and reading usually two different ones. I don't know. I can't. But I dance around genres. So I've just actually finished Meet the Newman's. Oh, how did you like it?

I really liked it. Okay. It's a whole while to get into. I love that cover or that edition. It's really cool, isn't it? I mean, she's like one of my favorite authors anyway. I saw that cover I was like, I don't even know what it's about, I'm going to have it. Because generally, I don't read birds either.

For me, it is generally about, I'm a bit of a cover for. So if the cover's nice and I like the title, then I'll kind of download it and see what it's like. But yeah, listen to that. And what was the audio book I just finished? Or listen for The Lie. So good. Oh, that's a great one.

It's so fun. Yeah, so, so good. And then I dance around a little bit of romance every now and then as well. Nice. I'm actually... You write romance too, right? Yeah, I do, yeah. Okay, that's what I thought.

Yeah, well, I think that's it. It's because I prefer, I mean, I do read a lot of thrillers as well, but I think because I write romance and a right apocalyptic, I kind of do kind of dance around all the different jobs. Yeah. But I'm waiting for the next... fourth wing book by Rebecca Yaris. Oh, yeah.

I was like, I'm just going to have to read one of her romances because I just really enjoy her writing. Yeah. No dragons, unfortunately. I didn't know she wrote other women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Well, you know, I love your book. So I will always be reading them for whatever, the rest of my life. Or the rest of your guys' lives. And, yeah, if you.

need a messy small town thriller this is the one that you need and as of the date that it's airing you can go buy it so everybody go buy it basically um and otherwise thanks for talking with me about it thank you thank you so much for having yes you guys are always fun to talk with