Bookwild - Trad Wives, Social Media & the Horror of Losing Yourself with Sarah Langan

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

This week, I talk with Sarah Langan about her novella Bloody 13 and her horror novel Trad Wife!Listen to hear about:The inspiration behind Bloody 13, and the conflicting reactions to it when she initially published it.How Sarah Langan turned the trad wife movement into horror, using the seemingly idyllic online lifestyle to explore control, gender roles, motherhood, and the systems operating beneath the aesthetic. Why accusations of “selfishness” can be so powerful against women, and how Trad Wife examines the difference between selfishness, agency, and basic survival. How neglect, isolation, and high-control environments affect mothers and children, and why Langan uses supernatural horror as a way to make those less-visible forms of harm tangible. Why Langan loves ambiguity in horror, how The Yellow Wallpaper and other classic horror influenced Trad Wife, and why she’d rather leave readers thinking than explain every mystery. All the Bookwild Links:Check Out the Bookwild SubstackSubscribe to Bookwild on YouTubeGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramCheck Out Author Social Media Packages Follow Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mbaErin Ashley @bellametaphor

In this episode, I talk with Sarah Langen about her new horror named Tradwife, which is, as you can imagine, a very horror forward take on Tradwives. This one is very different than all the ones that I have read, and I really, really enjoyed it. Very brief description. Tradwife is a chilling tale of a journalist's descent into horror as she uncovers the dark secrets behind a Tradwife influencer, blending suspense with a critique of modern femininity and the manipulative forces of social media. It was so fun getting to hear from Sarah and what inspired her to write this and like some of the research she did and how she created this story. And also there are some omages to

other horror as well. So that being said, let's hear from Sarah. I always want to know at the beginning just to like get to know a little bit about you as a person and the writer. So you've written quite a lot at this point. Was it, did you always want to write? Did you have your first idea from a book and then started writing? What was your writing journey like? I always wanted to write. I think I decided when I was four. But the journey was harder. I think back then it wasn't like a career that many people had so I didn't I didn't really know what that looked like so I didn't do much writing until I was in college I hear about a lot of people who were like writing novels in high school and stuff and I was always like not ready

like I was too it was too overwhelming the idea for me so I really didn't start until college And once, like from the second I started, I didn't stop. And I loved it. It was, again, I came up in a time when horror was not acceptable. You know, so I went to, in college, we were not allowed to write genre. And then in grad school, they had a firm rule, no genre. No, they didn't have a firm rule, but they were just like, don't do it. And so I did it anyway in college and I had this independent study teacher who was like, what are you doing with this?

Like, where is it going? And I was like, so it's a ghost story. And she was like, all right, fine. Go ahead. Which was cool, you know. And then when I got to graduate school, it was that same deal where it was like, genre's crap. We're trying to teach you how to be real writers. And I think it was just popular wisdom is very infective or infectious. And I think that was what was going on. And I don't blame the teachers because also a genre, I couldn't get an agent. I couldn't, you know, I finally did write this my first novel the keeper was obviously horror and uh the reason it's a slow burn is because i like didn't want people to immediately tell me i couldn't do it i wanted to like surprise them so they had to deal with it right um but i couldn't everybody else was getting agents and selling

and i was like this is a good book everybody this is good and i couldn't get any traction at all uh And it took like eight years after graduate school to finally publish that book, maybe nine. And I was always honing it. I probably like there's different kinds of writers. I'm trying to teach myself to be a writer that moves on and keeps producing more work because it can get navel gazing to keep fixing the same thing. But that's how long it took. And that was the journey.

and even then it was mass market paperback, but it got reviewed in the Times and was an editor's pick. Wow. Yeah, a mass market paper. That had to be validating after all that time. Kind of, it was like nobody cared. I don't know why they didn't care, but they didn't. Like, I don't get it. But, you know, everyone was like, sure, we didn't expect that.

But also, we're the, we're the Schlock division. and have nowhere to put this or interest. The whole genre thing is so the genre wars thing or whatever is so interesting to me, not positively, because it's like we even use literary fiction or in the case of like Tradwife, I would call it literary horror. So we even use the term literary as a genre. but there's this like weird elitist stuff in some circles about literary versus genre. I think literary is a term used to say like it's it's not crap, you know?

Like you just put literary in front of it. And what that means is like, oh, it's not a bunch of stereotypes. It's literary science fiction. It's literary romance. All that means is it's like a little more slow burn. It's more believable. and you're going to have some things that are unexpected happen in it instead of like just like a retrench of whatever's popular in order to sell. And so it's a misuse.

I think literary fiction is its own genre and it is and it probably should have a different name that genre that would be more no nothing. uncanny ever happening and uh extreme character driven maybe to the expensive plot but nonetheless really good um yeah i think that's what literary fiction is to me but it should definitely have a different name and then they should just instead of that coding of literary it should be like this is the unexpected version or the whatever yeah Yeah, that makes sense. Did you, were you always drawn to horror? So had like you read or did you like watch a lot of horror growing up as well?

Yeah, I mean, I was so into it. Yeah. My dad and I would go to like every horror movie that came out. And there were some good ones. I remember like the fly. I really wanted to see American Merit World War from London, but nobody would take me because I was way too little. That was great.

Yeah. Yeah. I loved that stuff. Like I remember renting Dawn of the Dead because somebody, like a camp counselor told me about watching it. And I was like, well, now I'm watching it. And like I was like, my brother and I were sitting on the couch watching it. My brother and I were like, we were freaking out. We were like little. And my dad came home and sat down. He's a doctor and just couldn't stop laughing. You know, he thought it was like the funniest thing. And we're like, oh, it's funny. It is funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did your writing process develop? So do, did you outline at the beginning? Do you outline now? Is it different for each book that you have? I would say it's different for each book. I'm more of pantser than a planner. I think to save time, it's, I try to do some kind of outline. Like, I know where it's going. But then I like to be surprised. And the truth is like, when she, when she's, when she's, it's it's like plot character character plot right and so you're working on something and you go oh i can't actually have this happen anymore because that's not my character and either i have to change my character or i have to change the plot and you do that again and again and suddenly it's a different story than you started with which is the goal but also frustrating because it takes longer than if you just shoehorned everything together right yeah that makes sense um

I've read I've read good neighbors and the environmental one. Is it a safe place to live? Oh, a better world. Yes, yes. That. And now Tradwife. Oh, my gosh. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. And you really use horror or even kind of speculative elements to talk about kind of like the horrors or fears that we're grappling with currently. like some present fears possibly, has it always kind of felt like a way for you to process what's happening at present? Or do you think that's just kind of in the writing because it is your present? I think that it's the way that I know how to talk about anxieties. And it's the way that to me is actually the less scary version. Yeah. Because, say, it for real, it's like, you know, do you want to, like, I loved Tara Westover's educated, right?

Yes. But I'm not sure, like, I kind of like to drive the point, the message in a way that is less stark than that, truthfully. Yeah. Like, even my darkest books, you know, I think I'm always surprised when people are like, oh, this was too upsetting. And I'm like, really? You know, like, I always give somebody something.

Like, it's not completely nihilistic. But for me, it's a way of removing it one layer because I don't, because there's some things that if you were to actually be honest about, the characters would be far more damage than they are. Right, right. And the outlook would be worse. And I like to think about, I like to take these things. and think about like why they're happening. Yeah. You know, like you look at Me Too and before Me Too,

we all thought we were the only ones, you know? Right. Like you were like, yeah, I just, you know, my mentor keeps trying to squeeze my ass, but I guess it's because he really likes me. And then it's like, oh, no, it's a systemic issue. Right, right. And I think that's, I like thinking,

about the systemic things a little better. Yeah. Yeah. It is helpful for, I think that like you're saying, like there can be such a connection through books that can help you feel like, okay, it's not just me and it in all kinds of ways, which ends up being so nice. So also, I was going to interview you a little bit earlier, but I think the scheduling happened for a short story called Bloody 13. They wrote 4 slash with Pink Beam Press. And I thought it was so fascinating. It's a world where like the men have died off. And there's still a lot of control around women, which I thought, speaking of systemic stuff, I thought it was really fascinating. So what was kind of like the idea you had for that? And what was it like writing in the like short story format. Oh, I love a short story because I feel like I can get

really crazy with a short story in ways that aren't as sustainable with a novel. And I love like a crazy voice and like everything wild happening. And readers are like willing to follow in ways. They're less willing to follow with novels. So I love that. And then it started because I, was pitching a producer. And I said, what if like there's this thing where when these girls turn 13, they have to wear plague masks. And he was like, I love it. And so he was like, can I, can I buy that from you?

Like, can you, like, either you write it or, but we don't even have time. I just want to buy it from you and I want to make it. And I was like, no. And like I'm my own worst enemy in every way. So I was like, no, I'll write it. Then you could option it. And then it's mine. Yeah.

And so I wrote it. And that was right when COVID started. Oh, wow. So it looks like it's anti-mask, right? And it was originally called You Have the Pretiest Mask. And it was published with Kelly Link and Gavin. And they put it in Lady. Rosebud, I don't know.

You know the one, like their magazine. Yeah. So that was like 2021. And the reviewers were like, I don't, I think she's anti-mask. And I was like, oh. And I was like, ah. It's not what I was going for. I don't even want to go online and talk about it.

I'm not even going to address it. And the producer was like, He got me some calls, but everyone was like, yeah, we can't make this. We can't make this. And I was like, yeah, no, you can't. And they were like, could we do a different thing? And I was like, I can't really come up with a different thing. This is the story.

Like, if it were not a mask, what would it be? And it's still people are going to think it's Andy Mess. So they can make it. And then when the Philip K. Dick Festival came, came up, I was a guest of honor, and they just asked if I had a novella for that festival, pink beams. So I gave them prettiest mask and they renamed it Bloody 13. So it's a reprint. And I think it's, I'm glad it's out again because I think people can maybe see it in a different light. And maybe not. I think it might be triggering for another five years. People are just going to

be upset. Yeah. I mean, it's such a different, uh, use case for the masks. Like there's a lot of, you know, I know critical thinking isn't exactly like on the rise right now. But it's so different than like being anti-masked during a pandemic. It's funny. It's funny. Yeah. Yeah.

And I actually, I think that there's plenty of people thinking critically. They're just not online. There's a lot of people. point who are not online distinction like like i think this the reality is like we think everyone's online and and really i've been not you're right you're right that's i think that's good to remind ourselves um well speaking of being online uh what what about the tradwife movement like kind of spoke to you and you were like i think this could be horror yeah i thought So I've been, I had written a book called, I miss, or a short story called I Miss You So Much.

And it was, it's definitely the scariest story I've ever written. Oh, wow. And I really want to do something with it. And then, you know, I have been writing these stories about motherhood and, and the horrors of it, not necessarily, you know, there's, of course, love. there's a lot going on. There's a lot of identity, like a Shirley Jackson-esque identity loss.

Yes. You know, there's this great short story she wrote where this mom goes to the dentist and is really busy and is given Novakane and she comes out and doesn't know who she is. And she's just lost in the world. Is she going to even where she can go? And it can feel like that sometimes.

Like I remember going to the dentist when I had young kids and I would fall asleep when he was drilling my teeth. And he was like, you mothers, you all just fall asleep of the chair. You're just so glad to have an hour. Or I remember being on a flight with my husband. And I was like, oh, my God, there's nothing I can do. I'm released on this plane.

And I was like, you get to feel this way all the time. You know, this is like an amazing feeling. And I, you know, I adore them. Anyway, so I was, I had all these ideas. And it just seemed like the perfect. encapsulation of that, but also the systemic stuff that I love talking about, because it is a pyramid scheme. It's multi-level marketing. It's like these exact schemes that appeal to stay-at-home mothers who would like to make a little cash and have some agency but can't get out of the house.

So like there's so much going on with that. Then there's even like there's bigger structures at play. You know, that these radicalized gender constructs are, they're being pushed by the social media outlets. I suspect because it makes money, but it also feels like for other reasons, because there are things like women telling other women where they can get abortions that are deleted and push down or, you know, these things that, why isn't that? it's a choice that they're making. And so, so these trad wives who may, you know, I don't think they're going to make the majority of them, it's a waste of time. It's exhausting. They're making the platform rich. And then the platform is selling them out and they're selling their followers out. And, you know, that's what's happening. And it's not, I don't begrudge, begrudge women making money. And I think Women make, should make money.

And if that's the way they can make money, I'd rather go after Chevron than them. So I think it's sort of like we're all putting these boxes. And it's really about the boxes that we're in. Yeah, totally. And with the way you set it up, we have a journalist who really enjoys her career. and like what she's doing with her life, which I think is, I think it's important, well, I'll set up my question first. And then we have Mia, who is kind of the trad wife, and she's going to kind of observe and report, basically. But they, especially at the beginning, are so like diametrically different

than one another. And so there's so much contrast between the two of them, but then there's like also the tension of it all. I'm with you. like choice is the main thing that I care about for all women and men too. But it was showing like kind of what each, what each of them have kind of technically given up to have the life that they have. And then like maybe what they are like, oh, that part of that life would be nice. So did you always want to kind of have one, like the journalist coming in? Because it's a good way to kind of have like that outsider coming in.

And then two, did you always want them to be? at least on the outside very different. Yeah, I mean, that was like the, I miss you too much that story was very much someone on the outside coming in to home that they know that there's something not right about and their slow discovery of that. So that was always the intention. And then also I wanted to explore this notion of selfishness. Because it feels to me that that's really the accusation.

that's leveled the most often against women. And it's debilitating because we're pleasers. And so we don't want to appear selfish. But in fact, like these things that are labeled selfish are often just survival. And so it's really like, could you just survive a little less? Right, yeah, yeah. So, you know, Mia's selfish. Jenny's selfish, they're surviving. And who gets to make those judgments? Everybody.

And why? And it was sort of like I looked at tradwives a little bit. You know, honestly, I'm not other than being online to like look at cute rabbit videos or like clips of like shows I watched in the 80s. I'm really not online. And but what I, what was fascinating, to me was how much traction they got. And I think it was so much about, it was the aspirational aspect. It was like fun for women who were exhausted to go look at that and be like, I could just fucking relax. And wouldn't it be amazing if like I had this home and my whole job was to like love people unconditionally and make a home that they could come to? My God, I wish I had. We all want that. right that's totally yeah um and then on the other side it's like it's like people who hate them

you know and then on the other side are people who are like it's a scam and what was interesting to me was how many people were making their money off doing parallel videos taking them apart um intelligently mostly women and so it's like this ecosystem yeah of everyone making the platforms rich. It's not just women. Most people who went into the industry and it's like

it's a shame and I hope that we figure that out because it's a vital part of American democracy to have paid journalists.

and yeah I hope we figured that out but this idea that like people can just do it from their garages I know it's not tenable right it was kind of reminding me when you were talking about that I just interviewed Kristen Kobaz Dumay for her live laugh love um which is about basically the the secret history of how white women kind of craft the version of biblical womanhood that we have now. But she and I were talking about like Phyllis Shafley and someone else, but these women who like really carried water for the patriarchy and were like, I'm going to take this route. And she had such an interesting point that's so similar to yours, where she was saying like, if we do want to also still hold sympathy for some of these women,

And some of them are very talented, very intelligent, very ambitious women. But like the kind of the society or the family or whatever that they grew up and kind of made them think that this was the only route that they had to apply all of that. Because it's so hard to break into other areas, basically. So I think that's kind of probably some of what you're saying too. And I see that in the story now that you mention it, where it is like, like, what if these women who, like, have these great ideas didn't just think they could be, like, trad wives on Instagram? Yeah.

Yeah. Or I, the trad wives are interesting. The anti-trad wives are really interesting. They are really smart and funny and interesting. Yes. And I'm like, my God, I wish there were a different model for this. Because I also don't want them to be talking about tradwives. I don't. Like, I don't think it's, it's not super relevant. I think, right. You know, it's just

the symptom of something much bigger. Right. Yeah, I completely agree. So you said you kind of, like, aren't totally on social media all the time. What was it like? It sounds like you did do some research for it. Was there anything that stood out to you as you researched it? You know, it's funny. I think it's my own internet incompetence, which is that there was one, I think it was Nara Smith where I was like, I'm worried about this lady. I'm going to make sure nothing I write as close to her because I'm really worried about her. And then she like guessed it on Project Runway. My daughter and her watching it and I was like, I'm not worried about her. She's smart and savvy. This is funny. I misread this completely. And I,

think that's funny, you know? I agree. You know, because I really do, like, that was probably my biggest concern in writing this was I didn't want, this is such a stupid thing because it's impossible. I didn't really want people to feel bad. Like, that I was targeting them. And, you know, I know that what's her face is on the phone. What's Hannah Eelman? Oh, yes. Yeah, and this is on a farm. So there's a lot of similarities, but at the same time, like, my mom grew up on a farm.

And it's funny, like, and no, I mean, like, there are some similarities. But I wanted to make sure, I wanted to tell a story that I felt like wasn't nasty. and I hope that I did because I think if there's anything about feminism that I'd like to adopt it's not attacking other women and I mean it's also not holding them as precious and fragile which is also important

Yeah. It's funny. I was thinking about, remember that George Gissing book, The Odd Women from like the 1880s? The end, it's supposed to be this like sad, terrible thing where the woman has no one to marry and no money, so she's just going to start drinking in the bar. Oh my God. And I was watching, you know, Pride and Prejudice or something. Like I love, love the, um, yes, the miniseries on PBS Pride and Prejudice. us and they showed a bar and I was like oh you know what it's such a so so condescending to to write the horror story ending for a woman that she's drinking in a bar right you know a lot of men are drinking in bars because they're sad right we're not like well now they may as well be dead

you know right so there's something to that too um that's worth thinking about totally But yeah, no, I, that was, that was probably my biggest concern. Yeah. Because like I read Hannah Nealman came out with something that I read. It was like an interview. And she seems pretty tough. She does. So I was like, these, these are tough people.

They're not going to care. Right. Right. Well, it is one of those things where like I'm not condoning bullying. that happens online, but like, you know when you're posting something online that like it's going out to the masses. So I'm sure there are still people with thin skin who are still posting things and like shocked when they when they get trolled or bullied or whatever. But like some of it is like, you know you're putting it out there and well, you know how people could be. Well, it's like it's the

short skirt argument, though, because if you, like, women are just bullied, I don't know. There was a study of how much more often they're bullied online than men. And it's just, you just have to expect it, like double the shit. And so, and I think women are corrected on Wikipedia two or three times as often. You know, it's even for just posting, like, it's like, you're not. And I think, you know, it's, it's just all, you know, but is it other women correcting those women? Like, we can't just say it's these men that are doing it. It's like it's so internalized.

You're much more likely to go after a woman than a man because they're less scary. Yes. Yeah. And there is some of that within, within like the way evangelical Christianity has posed it with women. there's more of a like be uh like meek and humble and whatever and then i i sometimes wonder if some of them like policing other women when you think they're not doing that is like you just wish you didn't like have to you didn't subscribe to yourself yeah yeah they're selfish yeah you know who wants to love selfish people

I have for a long time said, like, I am too selfish with my time for children. So I get it. I don't think it's a bad thing. And, again, to be very clear, if you're a mom, you should also have your own selfish time as well. But that has been kind of like my stance on it for myself. The other thing is like performance is obviously what we're kind of talking about right now. And it's like there are some women who have been smart about it and have even gotten popular by kind of performing the whole Tradwife aesthetic when it's when it's mostly an aesthetic. But then I think critics of it are sometimes talking about women who like pretend that they have no help, that they are doing everything.

Like there's some details that are maybe missing. and so it feels more like a performance. But I'm also sometimes like, even in this conversation, like I'm not being inauthentic to myself, but I know when the lights are on and the microphone is in front of me and I'm having a conversation, there's even an element of performance. Like I'm not acting like I would if I was just sitting here. So it's kind of hard to even tell when performance is like with malicious intent or even when it's super intentional.

And then there's lots of people who perform their face. or they perform faith or religion that they don't actually believe in. So what was interesting to you about digging into like all the different versions of performance that there are? I think that by virtue of having your picture up and sending it out into the world and being aware of that, it necessarily affects, how you present. And we typically want in whatever way to present our best form or, you know, there's people who are like posting on Facebook. I see once in a while like pictures of themselves crying and being like, say something nice to me. You know, there's always something nuts about it. And I think when you get traction for presenting a specific aspect of yourself, that's the aspect

you continue to present. And it's sort of the form leads the content that sort of infects who you are. Then your narrative for who you are is that aspect that gets the attention. And I think that's bad. At least for me, it would be bad because I think you can't be a dynamic person if you're only saying one thing. And I think that's true for politics. I think it's true for everything where, you know, it's sort of you don't even know yourself that you've become rigid. And, you know, it's the mass that eats a face, right?

Like now you're presenting and the presentation has made you sick. Yeah. And I think that's a thing. But there's also, you know, I'm a little bit earnest. And there are people who are not. And they're just fine. And it's not eating their face. You know, and I think it's important to not be,

not treat them as fragile or assume that everyone's the same. But you look at the manosphere and you can see it more stark. I think, which is that they're full on like invest with this company, I'll get a percent. And that's how they're making money for like, you know, companies that are losing money. Right. For their subscribers. And they're advocating foolish health ideas and foolish gender ideas and relationship advice. That's a joke.

Yes. So, yeah, I mean, that's, are they, have they become that? Maybe. You know, you can see, like, if you ever look at the real housewives, they start out and, like, in the early years, they started out and they were happy to be on the show and excited that they might make money. And then they all wind up, like, divorced and drinking and sad and sort of creating drama or they won't be on the show anymore.

But then it appears that they've become these monstrous versions of themselves. Right. I think that can happen. You can. Yeah. And then there's people who are stuck in it who are like, you know, when you present this as something beautiful, these, the far right, the religious right, there's people who are forced to live these lives that are prescriptive, that are trapping, that are harmful to their health.

And but my one aside is like, I grew up Catholic. I've got a lot of Catholic friends who are married with kids and a lot of them are wearing the pants in their families. Like I just like this notion, like I think, you know, if you're going to a megachurch and you're all like, you know, whatever, if this, if the doctrine is the same as the tradwife doctrine and you bought in, that's a lot more dangerous than I think than what I grew up with. A lot of people are recovering. They're furious. They're leaving the Catholic Church. But at the same time, I just, when I visit, all I see is like, just, you know, I don't see

men behaving badly at all. I really don't. So I think there's different versions. Yeah. Yeah, but it definitely is. And yeah, you do eventually, especially with reality stars, you'll hear some of them talk about, like, especially the ones who like now aren't on, but maybe they have a podcast, like they're doing what they can to then kind of recreate a new job for themselves. But I've heard multiple of them talk about then like when you go to therapy that like it starts to help to have therapists who even kind of specialize in that. because of the nature of it. So it's like, it's like a quote unquote normal person goes to therapy. You have like an issue like with a person. And so you're maybe working with your therapist to feel like confident enough to like broach the issue or figure out how you want to talk about it. Then maybe you address it with that person.

Then you move on in your life. And until you feel ready to maybe live life without a therapist, then you're kind of you're addressing things. in real time as they happen. With reality TV, so many of them record something that happened. They record for like three months of a year or something. And then three months pass while it's editing. And then it starts airing.

And then the internet has all of their feelings on it. And then you do the reunion maybe six months after the incident occurred. And so now all the stuff that you thought you had like dealt with is like intentionally getting shoved back in your face. And so like you almost can't let it go the way you do like a normal person. But then also to your point, then some of the negative things you might have done are gaining you more popularity and making the show more popular. So truly your bad behavior is like incentivized. And it's like, yeah, what do you what do you do once you're kind of in that, that cycle of something where it's like some of your worst behavior.

you get positive feedback for it. It's a mess. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't volunteer for it. I also wouldn't volunteer to make my kids child actors. You know, these seem like bad ideas. No. No. That will, and that's another part of this book. I don't want to get into any of the spoilers. But the children, he has children. I know. I'm like, how do I even like, how do I even, like, I don't know.

Spoilers. But I think we could talk about on a high level. If we want to even just talk about high control systems, even taking religion out of it, the children tend to suffer when there's like some version of extreme control being exerted on them. So what did you kind of want to explore there? Well, I actually was thinking about raising that many kids. like Mia is doing is incredibly hard.

And there's no way to make it look pretty. There's just no way. And there is a way if you're a very light, well-adjusted, happy person to make it look fun. But not every day will be fun. And so, like, and some days, you just have poop all over you, literally. And there's just, especially at a farm, crap everywhere. Not even just kids, yeah.

Yeah. And so it was this notion of, like, what happens in a case of neglect and sort of the supernatural thing that I have going on. is a proxy for neglect, which is a kind of abuse, but it's not overt. It's just there's a stunting that happens. Yes. And I was thinking about people who are stuck at home, who are getting no help, who are unseen, and the effects of that.

At some point, you're going to give up. you're just going to give up. And so, so that was, you know, that was kind of what I was indicating, I think, where they're all sort of, they're confused on how anything works. Yeah. And it's, they're in a bubble. I connected with it a lot, especially what you're talking about with neglect there. I did therapy for like a lot of my 20s.

I was pastor's kid. and really kind of a similar thing there was religious trauma and then there was like my mom was very scary and my dad thought he couldn't do anything and was a victim with us like my brother and I so there when I started therapy it was like the very overt big scary mom stuff that that got addressed first and then I remember when my therapist was like But now we need to talk about the neglect. Now we need to talk about the things you didn't get, not just the obvious things that were happening. And I remember being like, oh, well, if I got through that stuff, like, this is going to be a breeze. It's actually a lot harder. And it's a little sneakier. And you don't kind of notice that it kind of teaches you, like, I'm not worthy of standing up for. I don't like keep your needs really minimal. And it is. It's a really. it's a really tangled thing to work through because then like you maybe abandon yourself as well in adulthood because it's just what you've learned in general um but it's like because they are

especially in this case they're they're even more isolated on a farm um and being taught on the farm it's going to be so hard for them to ever question like should i be treated better um so i very much felt that claustrophobic level of the horror for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing, though, is like, there's, I mean, I suspect that you also knew your parents loved you, which was the most probably fucking confusing thing of all. Yes.

And it's like, what? And I think that's, the kids know that too. Mm-hmm. And it's like there's this, whatever the scaffolding was for that family. was wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's, did you see, like,

Lena Dunham had some show, I think it was called like camping or something. Oh, okay. And I watched the first episode, and it was like, the main character was a mom who was a total goddamn shrew. And she was portrayed as a total goddamn shrew with no empathy. And I was like, this is, this is by somebody who didn't have to, stay home with kids for a long time because this is this is resentment of not being seen and the worst part of of patriarchy or misogyny is that it affects the children yes i mean it's you know

it's it's it's it affects everybody everybody feels a little lonelier no one's having as much sex as they could when you know when you're when you're when you're in a bad place and um But it affects the children because where if if she can't get her needs met from the person who professes to love her because he doesn't he's like I don't get it. I don't get it. I'm not equipped for it. Then it goes. It goes. Shit goes downhill. And I think yeah, usually it's it's an unseen mom who's pissed. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And it's. it's like years of stuff that builds up to that point. So it's it's kind of the frog and boiling water too. Like sometimes you can get in a situation where all of a sudden you're like, oh, I have all this resentment built up. But I wasn't totally noticing because it was happening graduating like over time essentially. And then all of a sudden you're like,

wow, this is really big now. It changes your character. You don't recognize yourself. Yes. Yeah. Did you see, remember Mad Men? I remember everybody hated on Betty, which was fair, but it was very clear. Like, you watch it now, and it was like, she was neglected. And so now she's furious. And she's, she's in this house. Who's she going to take it out on? Right. Right.

And she couldn't Google stuff. Like, that was just the reality she was stuck in. She could shoot those birds. And I was kind of glad for her. Yes. Like, that was the best Betty thing she ever did. Yes. It really was.

I understand. I understand why people wanted to be frustrated at her, but I'm like, she's not really the problem here. Like, not at all. It's that American anti-hero thing where it's like they love, they love these like, never, like that word never, you know, and it's like, he's the hero. And it's like, he's the hero. Yeah, why did we have to give them a title that has the word hero in it still? because I think eventually people started thinking like, because it was like Breaking Bad was kind of the first like big Zytheist moment where we get in.

Yes, yes, where we started saying the term anti-hero. And I'm like, guys, it means not something to aspire to. But I think we kind of lost the plot there a little bit. No, I don't think we did lose the plot. I think it was presented to us as romantic. And I think, you know, David Chase, I think all of these guys are full of nonsense. And maybe. house of cards because it's sold they were not doing it yes because they wanted to show us what not to be yeah it was a nonsense yeah that's a really good point too you've changed my mind um well and you were kind of talking about you start to like there's sometimes you end up losing a sense of self and the other thing is like physical things start happening to jenny the reporter as she's even in that house without going into the spoilery reasons why. Was it important for you to kind of include those like that physically you would even change?

Yeah. I think when you're sad, your body tells you so. And, you know, for so long, I think we considered psychosomatic illnesses, evidence of weakness and insanity. And so you couldn't be that. But in fact, I think those, they're just, it's a real sickness. It's really happening. And it's because of your circumstances.

Yes. And it's, you know, it's real. And so I think that's what she's, you know, it's, again, you know, it's a symbol or a proxy for the supernatural thing is really speaking to this, this way that, you know, why did you have a migraine for? a week. It's not, it can't just be, you know, it's something that's happening. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm someone who likes to put my feelings in my body instead of always acknowledging them. So I feel you there. Sometimes that's when I'm like, oh, okay, what have I not been paying attention to emotionally? And sometimes you are just sick and that's okay too. But for me, it's always at least worth asking. Are there some feelings I've been shoving down or not paying attention to?

Yeah. And the other part, again, now I was talking about spoilers, there is like a, there's like a kind of like historical explanation. There's some lore for what's happening at this house. And I really enjoyed it. I thought it was very fascinating. Again, I'm jumping around it. But I know you said you don't necessarily like hardcore plot out what you're going to write. did you know like did you know where you were headed with it as you were writing oh my gosh oh wow it's so funny

i just like i that was all just like i really was enjoying myself and i was like i just i have to keep this and it's crazy and it was maybe 20 pages longer and my editor was like people don't know what this is like you have to cut it down a little i could i definitely would have read more right like it was this whole journey. It was really fun. I loved it. And I feel like that's always my reward I give to myself. When I write, I get to do something that's just, I mean, it's all for me, obviously, but I get to do something that's wild. And I was like, I feel like this book is strong enough that I could pull these things through it. And then I get to have a little fun and make it make it a little bigger in my mind and sort of reference books that have come before it, which I was trying to do.

You know, what is what I was wondering? So the yellow wall paper was the yellow wallpaper and homage? Yeah. And Robert Chambers and, you know, I put it in like Carcoza and. Is Jenny's name intentional at all? No. Okay. There's the the girl with the green ribbon, that horror. I had just read another horror that made use of that one. And it's like her name's Jenny and she has like this green ribbon around her neck the whole time. So I didn't know if that was that was just that was just her being Jenny though. No. Kind of like an everyday name.

I thought. Yes. Yeah. That's true too. Um, no, I that was just, I had so much fun with it. And I kind of, I thought people would like it. I, I wondered, you know, like non-horror people might be. like, I don't like this, you know, my ketchup touching my potatoes, but I don't care. And,

and they're wrong because I think, like, I feel like it's what's going to make people think about it and go back to it. Yeah. Regardless of whether, you know, like, when I, sometimes you get the editor note, which is like, can you tell me the answer to this? And I go, you think you want the answer, but you don't. The answer is not as good as you thinking about it and coming up with your own answer. I know. And it is a specific reader. That's even what I've just realized. Some of my friends maybe read horror like once a year and they'll like ask me about something. And I'm like, you want really clear cut answers. This is not the one for you. So some of it is knowing yourself as a reader. I am more and more okay with some ambiguous endings or endings where, like, I feel like the author gave me enough information to kind of what you're saying, think about the ending or kind of come to my own understanding of the story.

Like, I'm okay with it. But horror especially, like, if you're not going to be okay with some ambiguity, like, most horror is going to be difficult for that reader, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. And I, but I, yeah, and I think, so I wrote this novella called Pam Kowalski is a monster. And when my publisher, Broad Dog Screaming, put it out, people were like pissed because they're like, I didn't get the ending. I didn't get the ending.

I didn't. So we have like, I was like, this is like low ratings. I'm really surprised because I thought the ending was crazy obvious. Like, I thought it was obvious. And it is obvious. It's what they wanted was an epic. log. They wanted to know like, okay, but what happened? And I was like, we know what happens, because we know where the characters are in their relationship at the end. Yes. And they wanted to know,

they wanted the next conversation, which I didn't want to give. And, but then it caught on and suddenly the ratings went up and up and up. And what's funny is in those moments, it's really easy as a writer to doubt yourself. It's kind of like, oh, I'm sure. The Goodreads is the worst for that, because you can even be editing your book and the galleys out, and you could change it according to what the reviewers say. True. And you should not. You should absolutely not. Yeah. But they can, like, it's the worst. So. I know. I know. And I'm ever thinking, like, should I give them something? No, no. I'm not going to, like, I feel, I feel really strongly about this book. But, you know, what if I'd screwed up my own ending because the early readers didn't,

you know, didn't read it closely. Right. And it's, I'm even the, like, I get what you're saying even too, because like the falling action part of the arc, which is like you're technically like, you're supposed to have your climax and you deal with whatever. And then there's like the falling action for the end. I'm also, I don't need that to go on. for very long because for me as a reader, I'm like, oh, we, we just dealt with the big thing we were so worried about or trying to figure out this whole book long. Like, I don't need, most of the times I don't need an epilogue. I, I, but yeah, I've seen the reviews where people are saying stuff like that. Well, it's like fine, but it's not, you know, regardless of your good reading,

that really has no effect whether people are going to be talking about your book. I know. especially like that's the opposite i think hardcore book people use good reads but like in general the people who are maybe walking through a library or walking through a bookstore now they're not like oh this is a 3.48 on good reads most of my favorites are in that three ratings like what yeah yeah to make myself feel better i usually look up step and graham jones's ratings because no oh my gosh yes yes i've heard other authors say they do that he's doing fun he's doing fun He's doing fine. Yeah.

Well, I really, really enjoyed it. I got to listen to the audio. So for anyone who loves audio, I really like horror audio lately. It really adds layers to it. So if you're an audiobook listener, I highly recommend that. But I do always ask at the end if there are any books that you read recently and loved, or if there are books you just like always recommend. You know, I just read Yellowbird.

It's nonfiction. It's great. I read Whistler and Patchett, which is like, you'd be surprised. It reminds me a lot of Wallace Stegner. It's like kind of slow and sweet and mature. I revisited Nathaniel Hawthorne's short stories, and I had no idea how horror they are, like young Goodman Brown and the one with the kid who's visiting his, that's the name of it. I think I have it over here. My kinsman, Major Molanoe.

They're like spectacular horror stories. Wow. And then I'm looking forward to reading Liz Karen's book that's coming out in February. She's a terrific writer. And let's see. I loved Paul Tramley's AI book. That was really good. And yeah, oh, I want to read Maseywood. Oh, yes. Yeah. Those are some great ones. Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? I just started a substack so you can be one of the first 10 or have a mailing list on my website, which is like I actually,

I'm keeping up with occasionally. Oh, and if you're in L.A., I'm doing a launch for Tradwife on October 5th at the Grove, Barnes & Noble. And then in New York, I'm doing the launch on October 1st at the Strand. Awesome. Perfect. Well, I will put those links in the show notes,

and otherwise, thank you for coming and talking about it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your taking the time and reading my stuff. Yeah. Oh, it was so fun. Thank you.