Bookwild - Trauma, Twins and Twists: The Girls in the Dark by Avery Bishop

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

In this episode, Gare and I chat with Avery Bishop about his new thriller The Girls in the Dark! Listen to hear about: An unfiltered look at editorial disagreements, publishing contracts, audiobook production, and why getting a book into readers' hands is often far more complicated than fans realize. The inspiration behind The Girls in the Dark, balancing suspense with emotional realism, portraying trauma responsibly, and why some stories need to embrace their darkness. Crafting page-turning cliffhangers and deciding how much of a killer's motivation readers really need Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week, Gare and I got to talk with Avery Bishop, who is the author of many thrillers, but we are talking to him about his newest thriller, The Girls in the Dark. It is pitch black. If you love some bleak billings recommendations, if you love to be a little bit traumatized by your thrillers, you're going to love this one. Here is a short synopsis. 20 years after surviving a childhood abduction that claimed her twin sister, a woman is forced to confront the trauma she thought she'd buried when ominous sign suggests her

sister may still be alive. As the past resurfaces, she must unravel whether her long-lost twin has truly returned or if someone is using their shared nightmare to exact revenge. If you love your thrillers super dark and twisty, you're going to love this one. That being said, let's hear from Avery. So I am here today with Gare and we are with Avery Bishop, mostly to talk about the girls in the dark. I'm sure we'll talk about some other stuff too. if you love a dark, bleak Billings book, this is the one for you. So you're going to love this.

So I'm so excited to talk with you, Avery. I am too. Yeah, thank you both for inviting me on to talk about the book and everything else. And especially Gar, Gary, I know that in the green room we talked about it, but today you included the book as one of your shelter. Sigs. Have you announced really? Have you guys discussed? I'm assuming this is brand new. You haven't discussed in the show yet what a shelf sig is. No. No, no. We, um, we recently talked to Olivia Warley, um, who wrote Man of My Dreams and she turned me on to the term dope for Diet Coke. And I've

just been like using it in my everyday vocabulary. So I seem cooler than the 39 year old that I am. And so I kept seeing all of these memes about a Diet Coke being a fridge sig. And whenever something like that's like trending or something like, how would it be like fun to make something like that bookish? So then I was like, oh, you need something to take the edge off? Like, how about a shelf sig? Because some people like us like want to turn our minds away from what's going on in our lives and like pick up something that's going to like grab you from the first page take you on a crazy ride from cover to cover and like any anxiety dwindles a little bit because you're like I'm not being chased by a serial killer my husband is not like leading a secret

life I am not like part of a twin who was abducted and the only one to survive you know I wasn't like part of the harpies in high school and now somebody is like trailing around following me. So yeah, I thought it would be fun to do like a shelfsig to take the edge off because nothing is more fun than a wild, crazy, and really dark and bleak thriller to kind of get your mind off shit. At least in my world.

Well, it's an honor. Thank you. Thank you very. You are more than welcome. I actually think that A lot of the idea came from the girls in the dark because I had it on my Kindle and then you sent me a copy. But after you sent me a copy and I read it on my Kindle and I was like telling everyone like read it, read it, read it, read it. Like you don't want to put it down. Like there are so many boxes that this book checks for me where you have these mini cliffhangers at the end of every chapter. There's dual timeline.

And I'm like, it's impossible to put down. I flew through it without trying to fly through it, right? Like sometimes you're like going through a book and you're like, okay, like turning the pages and like flying through. But like I just like purposely like blacked out, I guess when I read it because I'm like, oh shit, another cliffhanger. Well, I got to read the next chapter. And then I was just like reading and reading and reading and I was like, I'm not going to

cook. I'm going to order takeout or delivery because like I, why would I cook right now when I'm trying to read this and I need to know what happens. And then when you sent it to me and you sent me a physical copy of it, I was like, this is almost 400 pages. And it did not feel like almost 400 pages when I was reading it. And I was like, this is the definition of a fridge or a shelf seg to go with my fridge sig.

So all the sags. Goes in the dark. I think it's because at heart, I'm a thriller author. so like I write very fast-paced but because my Avery Bishop stuff it leans towards that more suspense area. I'm writing these suspense novels but with like a thriller writer's sensibility

so I try to kind of keep it fast-paced but at the same time not a lot of action if that makes sense. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like they are pretty action-packed though unless it's just like my adrenaline that like runs through me where like I feel like I'm like there's one scene in particular, which I don't want to give anything away for anybody who hasn't read it,

but it takes place kind of in the middle of the book where there is a lot of action. And that is basically me as the thriller writer still try to be like, we got to throw some thriller-esque stuff into this. Yeah. Wild. Is there something that you like about, like, each of those genres separately? Like, do you enjoy writing them kind of for, like, different reasons? I mean, ultimately, if you, if you break it down,

I feel like, you know, the girls in the dark is a thriller just like any other thriller I've read. It really comes down to I feel like more of the bookstores and the publishers and how they want to classify things. You know, like, oh, well, yeah, this is more of a psychological suspense or a domestic suspense or a psychological thriller. It's ultimately it's all, you know, prime thriller type things. I just have always very much lean towards towards writing more, I mean, even growing up, you know, I was in sixth grade when the very first Jurassic Park movie came out. And so I just started reading all, you know, Michael Crichton stuff.

And from Michael Crichton, I started reading Stephen King. My very first Stephen King novel was Insomnia, which if you read Insomnia, probably is not the best book to introduce you to Stephen King. But I loved it. And that's what I wanted to, you know, that's how I remember finishing that paper. back at my grandmother's house in New York. Actually, Gare, Elmira in New York. You're familiar?

Almira's pretty far from me, but I know where you've heard of it, right? I mean, it's like, it's kind of like out there by Ithaca and stuff. But anyway, so that's where I would go in the summers. And I just remember closing, you know, I was sitting out front under a tree. I finished the paperback. And it was immediately like, I was in eighth grade. I was like, that's what I want to do with my life. And so a lot of my earliest stuff, like I thought it was going to be a horror author. But my hard stuff kind of was, you know, if you read it, it almost was like more thriller, you know, it was very fast-paced. And I feel like authors, sometimes they'll start in one genre, but they usually always end up in the genre where their, you know, their heart and soul kind of feels

right. Yeah. Is it still mostly like thrillers and suspense that you like reading now, too? Or do you read other genres? Oh, I think it's always important to read outside, you know. Yeah. Your job. I do. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, obviously thrillers, but I mean, I will read literary, you know, T.C. Boyle is one of my favorite literary authors. Yeah.

Actually, just today I picked up a recent, well, it's a somewhat recent because she feels like she has a new collection out every other year, but a recent Joyce Carol Oates collection. Okay. I'm currently going through a very thick, thick collection of all the Raymond Carver short stories. Oh, like, yeah. And I mean, I love watching science fiction. I don't really read that much science fiction. But usually when I like reading at some like literary, you know, I'll read the occasional like more Roberts. Okay. Yeah. You know, my next audio book I'll probably listen to is the correspondence. Like, yeah, I feel like especially as a writer, you know, yes, it's good to read in your genre to see what else is being done. But I feel like it's also very important to read outside your genre. Also in terms of translated works, that's the thing.

Like I have, I've always been trying to read a lot more like Japanese crime novels, you know, like these, you know, just, just, you know, just translated works that might be big in other countries, but maybe are not as big in the United States. Yeah, there are a couple of Japanese ones that I've just been adding, like, and I'm sure this is like the most basic one, but like the Decagon. Is it the Decagon mergers or the Decagon house? I have that somewhere in my office here. Because I was playing on reading that, yes. I've been seeing a few more where I'm like, oh, okay. Like this would be fun to like read, like you're saying, read something that's popular somewhere else too. That's cool.

I like a lot of Nordic noir. Yeah. That's like, that's my thing. Yeah. Did you always know you wanted to write or what was like, what was your journey to writing novels? Again, going back to the Stephen King, a lot of. Yeah. In high school then, I was just writing a lot of short stories.

Again, more harsh, you know, maybe science fiction. You even had a few published when I was in high school. But, I mean, nothing major and major magazines. But like in the small, you know, small press magazines. Mostly because I guess like initially I thought I was going to immediately write a book. But I think my parents at the time was like, don't just jump into writing a novel. you should write some short stories instead, which I guess is good advice. But I know some authors who, they've never written a short story, they just immediately write, you know, they just start writing novels.

So I think my very first novel novel, because I think I wrote probably more novellas in high school, but my first novel was probably in college that I wrote, I wrote a couple that are probably, as of now, they're Trump novel. Maybe someday I might go back and revisit them. But my very first, like, straight up thriller was a book called Amanda Wax that I wrote in three weeks, 90,000 words of three weeks. Wow. And that was, that was a very fast pace. And that was probably my very first true, like, you know, thriller, thriller book. And keep in mind, I had just graduated college. I was still living at home.

I was working as a substitute teacher. And also I was working at Riegel Cinema. I was like an assistant manager there. And so I would work up in the booth. So I would take my laptop with me. And between sets, I would like, meteor chapter and being a sub, like, there were days when I remember they would call me.

And I would just say, I can't come in today. Because I guess because I think I was at a place where I was having so much momentum. And I always remember, like, I think it was Stephen King had written The Running Man in like a week. And so part of me was like, once I hit a certain, you know, I think it was like the first week, I was like, I want to see like how quick I can, I can finish this book. And keep in mind, it was a rough draft. But yeah, so, yeah, 90,000 words in three weeks. And that got made my first agent. And this was, I don't feel like it was that long ago, but it was probably more than 20 years ago. God, if you old. But this was back when you would

have to, like nowadays, if my agent, you know, sends out a book to publishers, like every other agent, they just send out an email with it attached us like a word doc. Back then, they were still sending out paper like I had to send my agent like 10 manuscripts like I think I went to Staples or something and had them print out 10 and then I like packaged that through FedEx or something and then had it shipped to them and then and then they were sending it out to publishers because it was part of the thing where you know assuming the book got published and from the advance that that postage that postage and handling whatever like like part of that would come out of your advance because that was you know coming from the agency and

I don't know how long or like when they eventually kind of fizzled out of that. But yeah, this so they were, yeah, actually sending physical manuscripts to publishers. My gosh. I just watched an 80s movie recently with Kathleen Turner in it and she was an author. And it showed her like bringing her like huge manuscript to like her agent and being like, here you go, it's done. And I was like, wow, those were like the days instead of like now everything's like an email. like that old school like that old school like box that looked like it was made from manila folders

weighs like 20 pounds yeah that's crazy yeah because i mean think about a book is maybe three to 400 you know manuscript pages but some manuscript i mean you know even going back to stephen king think of like you're like 900 a thousand pages so god you know geez you know shipping those around right right Yeah, and it comes into like this little package here. Around that time, my very first, I guess, published book was I had edited this anthology because I had created this, this literary term called hint fiction. And so W.W. Norton ended up publishing this anthology. And they had sent me like nowadays, you know, the editing process and when you,

and when they kind of do the layout, they'll like send it to you as a PDF and you can review it that way. But then they actually sent the like the actual like, you know, here's the layout and you had to like go through page by page. Like that used to be done old school as opposed to now, you know, everything is done digitally. Yeah. Wow. You guys are really making me feel old here. I don't know. No.

I mean, I remember turning in assignments on paper. I'm also thinking about like. Oh, wow. We really did use to use paper. It also feels crazy now how like everything digital right now just feels like something that like we've been doing our whole lives. Yeah. And though like it's like progressed, you know, throughout the years. But it's just like, you know, sending an email or like even in my job like I work as an onboarding specialist. And like when I first started, people would send us their documents signed by hand and they would mail them and FedEx. them to us, you know? And like that was how it was when I first started. We used fax machines.

And now everything is like, everything is done through like email or signed electronically. So like, you know, it's just crazy how everything is so like digital, digitalized today. Yeah. That's what it's make me think about. I forget. We're probably around the same age. I forget how new it is. Yeah. I'm 39. So I can't be far away from you. I am at an age where I to think about it i am now i think i'm 44 i think i'll be 45 this october yeah we're close that was 801 october 81 so yes so so yeah so coming up this year it'll be 45 but yeah yeah once you yeah yeah once you hit 40 after that it's kind of like you're like how old am i again i think about yeah i've had i was having that happen to you recently though because i was like

am i 33 or 34 yes i'm like i'm turning 34 that's how I was after like 30. Yeah. 30 was like 30 felt like kind of big and then like everything kind of blurred. Even when I turned 39, like somebody had made a comment and was like, oh, it's like your last year or your 30s and I was like, I'm only 38. And they're like, you know, you were born in 87. You're 39. I was like, oh, shit.

There it goes. The memory's already starting. Great. Oh, no. God. I can't remember how old I am, but I can like remember like, character names and like wild twists and books. Yeah. Things like that.

Hey, real quick, how many books do you guys, like, read in a month? On average. Lately, like, 10 to 14 with audiobooks. I would say 10 to 14. Yeah. With the audiobooks, are you listening, like, at one speed? Are you listening at, like, one and a half, two speed? I can't do it faster.

It makes me feel like someone is stressed in telling you something. Yeah, sometimes I'll see people like posting on Instagram or whatever. Like I listen to this audio book, and it's like 0.75 or yeah, like 1.75 speed. It's like, how are you enjoying it to that speed? I mean, granted, there have been some. There have been some narrators that I felt maybe go a little bit too slow. And so I have kind of like made it a little quicker. But like I can listen to podcasts at like a 1.5 speed.

But even sometimes I might have that like if I don't have my my earbuds in and my wife has me nearby. And she's like, she's like, she's like, How can you listen to that fast? It's making my heart rate go quick. And it's like, well, you can, it was just two people talking on a podcast is one thing. But I feel like when you're listening to an audio book, especially if it's a really good narrator, like, I don't know. I know. I'm, I'm, it's more common that people at least listen at 1.5.

Like in my, so far in my experience, I'm like more people are like, only serial killers listen at one speech. And I'm like, well, call me a serial killer than. guess i'm the serial killer too i guess yeah right i don't know i just feel because it's a performance i mean would you watch a movie like you know 1.5 speed i yes yeah that's what i feel too that's how i feel i can't even do a podcast more than one i can't i can't my husband listens to everything at like almost two but he doesn't listen to books very often it's mainly like podcast and YouTube videos and I'm like you're stressing me out you have to listen on your headphones yeah even when I listen at one I'm like I'll be listening to like a true crime podcast and I'm

like they'll be like and then the police called Robert and I'll be like shit who is Robert again and that's even at like one because I like they'll be like oh like Rebecca Johnson was found murdered with like her bowl of cereal still on the counter and I'm like oh my god I have to pick up cereal. So then I start like making my grocery list and then I start like looking to see if I have any cereal and I just like my mind goes so like if I don't have something in front of me to physically read, my mind just like goes there and then all of a sudden Robert's there and I don't know who the hell Robert is. Right. So I more power to you guys for being able to like listen. Yeah. Because like audiobooks, but I just not work for me. I can't. Yeah. I think for for some people,

yeah, audio books, it's definitely, I don't know. I mean, personally, I do. I love them, but it really depends on the narrator. I feel like a narrator really makes and breaks or makes or breaks an audio book. Because there are some narrators. I just actually, I will just not listen to an audio book because of that narrator. Same. And it's the production.

I listened to one recently where I was like, why was the editor not cutting out these breath sounds? Like there were just too many breath sounds. And I was like, someone needs to. it to produce this better, but you can always read it. You can always read it with your eyeballs, too. And there's always like this pet peeve I have. And when I talk to narratives, I always ask them to if they have any pet peeves because usually, I mean, they get paid to read whatever is on that page. They can't ad lib or whatever, like whatever is is there. They have to read as is. Sometimes I'll listen to an

audio book. And I almost feel like that author does not listen to audiobooks just because they're not aware of like how the book is sounds or maybe they don't read it aloud but like just like constant speech texts like two characters in a room talking and it's like every line he said she said he said he said you know just back and forth and I think when you're reading it you can just kind of skim right over that stuff and not when you're listening to it I mean it is there right that's a good point too I know things like that a little bit more now like when I first started like doing like more like social media and like bookstagram and stuff I was like I either liked a book or I didn't like it and like now it's like oh I really loved the story but like the dialogue felt

like very like wooden and then I was like oh like you know because you put so much work into a book but so like it's strange how the more you read the more things like that kind of get under your skin a little bit more yeah I do well to wrap it back to the girls in the dark what was like the initial idea like that you had going into this one? So I am, I'm not somebody who typically likes to write down ideas. I mean, if I have to maybe pitch something to one of my agents just to get a ball rolling on something, yes. But usually if I have an idea, I try to write it down because I feel like the ideas that

stick with me after months and years. And some ideas probably, you know, more than 10 years, I still in the back of my head. I'm thinking about. I feel like those are the ideas worth writing as opposed to sometimes you might have, you know, I might see something, you might think of an idea and then like a week later it completely, you know, it's gone. So in this instance, and again, I feel like it might be a little bit of a fever dream, but I feel like I was somewhere in maybe like a Barnes & Noble, just scanning these books. And as I'm sure both of you are aware, publishers love doing that comp thing where it's like, this book is this meets this.

nine times out of 10, like that book is nothing like this and this, but they still like to, you know, kind of hype it up. But I saw this book and it was, it was kind of marketed as sharp objects meets room. And recently I've gone back to what I thought was that book and I cannot find that comparison anywhere. So again, maybe I was completely in my mind or maybe I'm misconstruing it with a different book. But I don't know. I kind of feel like, you know, you know people talk about how acting is a is a series of choices you have 10 actors all of them will play a scene differently it's the same thing with writing i feel like every writer is just a series of choices like how they will start a novel how they will like you know deal with their characters

how they will approach a scene whatever else so you give 10 authors that you know sharp objects and you're going to probably get 10 different ideas because what ended up becoming the girls in the dark It's completely different from whatever that novel had been. But I will say that over the years when I was thinking about the book, it did change. It did kind of evolve from what I initially thought was going to happen because I don't want to give too much away. But I kind of initially thought I was going to take it in one direction. And then it just really wasn't, it just wasn't working. Sometimes it's just like a gut feeling or just kind of you just feel like this just isn't right.

And just, you know, just kind of play it out. Because I'm not really somebody who sits down and outlines a novel, you know, beat for beat. Yeah. But very rarely, like I mentioned before that book, Manow Wax, that was a book where I just had the initial first chapter and sat down and just, I had no idea what was going to happen in the next chapter. I just was right. Nowadays, though, you know, being a proper adult who has a mortgage and bills to pay, like, I don't have that luxury to just kind of, you know, sit down. and just see what's going to happen like i really have to have a game plan in mind like at least you know have like a final like kind of i think like harland cobbins always talked about like it's for him

it's like a uh what was it like a cross-country trip he knows where he's starting he knows where he's going to end up what happens one the way how he gets there you know that's so usually like i will usually have an end point in mind uh but even that initial idea that end point was kind of different from what ended up becoming it because there was kind of a major change that i ended up doing And again, we can talk offline, but without giving away any major spoilers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it definitely was the kind of the book had evolved from there.

Now, I will say this. And if you both have read it, thank you very much. That's very kind. Oh, yes, yes. You know that it's a very, very dark book. And even shopping it around, we had more than what editors say, like, they thought it was probably too dark to publish because, you know, we would lose half the readership. Personally, I feel like readers who read them,

these types of books love dark stuff yeah i was going to swear there i wasn't sure if i'm a lot to swear on this but go for it but yeah i mean the darker like this and be like no cursing though we recommend the gross in the dark but please do not curse on our podcast it's it's i don't know youtube or wherever else but yeah i mean so basically i was going to say yeah they love dark shit i mean the darker the better i always go back to i think like lisa jules then she was gone, which I felt was very dark. I will say, though, maybe it's because, you know, I'm a man and I was the type of book this is and the characters, but especially with the flashbacks, I initially did not want

to go probably as far as I did. I mean, we don't see stuff happening. A lot of it's happening off the page, which can be argued is probably even worse. But it was, it wasn't until I read The Quiet Tenant where I was like, oh, she did not hold back like on any of that i was like okay all right well you know if if if if if i'm going to write this i you know it has to be true it has to be like what would happen you can't just like well maybe this guy who abducts these girls and keeps them in cages he's not going to do anything to him or it's like no i mean not realistically yeah you know that stuff would happen yeah i have like a

lot more respect for authors who really go there um because i think the argument argument to is always like if you think that this book is too dark then you should be paying attention to what's happening in the real world because this is what's happening to people in real life if not worse right um but i respect the way that you did it because you know what's happening but there's not like a long graphic description of you know violence and and things like that um it's just like something that you're like, you're writing it in a way that like you can use your imagination, but like no matter what you use your imagination with, you know what exactly what's going on. Without being too dark. Like pretty girls by Karen Slaughter went there.

There's a book called Those Girls by Chevy Stevens, which is probably the darkest book I've ever read in my entire life. And like that one went there. And it like stuck with me because of like, you know again that's things that are happening in real life but like i also think it's very interesting that you you bring it up to that like people are like this is too this is too violent for like a thriller for you to put out but if it was a dark romance they'd probably eat it up and have it like on every shelf in a month that's the thing that i find very interesting lately is that like people are kind of giving shit to authors and publishers for being like this book's too dark like why do people want to read against, you know, books about this?

And then like, uh, dark romance comes out where like they fall in love in the end. And it's even more graphic than what's on page in the violence in a thriller. And they're like people are like eating it up. Mm-hmm. So. That's a good point. You know, I have a lot of respect for the way that you wrote it. And I think that you did a damn good job.

And I wouldn't change a single thing about it. Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, it was again, just because, I, I'm a male author writing about basically the abuse of these very young girls. Like it had to be done, you know, I was very, very conscious, especially me and my age, in a lot of conversations. And then with the editor, just again, doing it in a way that's respectful, that's not gratuitous,

but also again, is essentially like true. That's kind of like the balance there where you want to, you don't want to do things that are going to over the top or that, you know, would be a very, you know, stomach churning. Although, again, I also kind of feel like the fact that a lot of stuff happens off the page might even be worse because you're letting reader's imagination just kind of go wild there. Go book wild, if you may. I hope they do. Well, I think kind of what you're talking about too, though, is like you kind of choose, you all choose

to focus on what like the lasting effects after a really horrific, crime happened. So it's also like what happens when that happens to you even if you get out of that situation. So is that just kind of like because that was how the idea came to you? Or did you kind of want to examine kind of the like the post-traumatic part? Yeah. I mean the setup was always the idea of these two sisters. One gets left behind. One makes it out. And then kind of that that idea. Well, one of the I guess one of the I don't necessarily

inspirations but like educated by by a Tara Westover or a million little pieces by James Frey like you have these huge memoirs that sometimes because I feel like

they get so popular inevitably you're going to have somebody come forward and say well that's not how I remember it happening and you know there's always like disputing now granted a million little pieces is completely different than like educated But like that idea where these memoirs or these nonfiction books, there's essentially always other people who can come forward.

And again, memories of fickle thing, you know, not necessarily maybe the author maybe is not, they're remembering how they remember it. And that might be different from how somebody else remembers it. But in this instance, the only people that can dispute the story that she tells. And I guess for people who don't are aware. So basically the girls in the dark is these two sisters get abducted by a serial killer. One manages to escape after months. And basically, her story becomes national news because it was a serial killer. This person had abducted and killed these other girls in the past.

By the time the authorities get there, her sister's no longer there, the killer's no longer there. So they never really found out what's become of her sister. But she ends up writing this book about her time in what they call the dungeon. and that becomes like this huge hit, you know, all across the country, then like a made-for-TV movie gets made, and she just becomes like a survivor rights advocate. And that kind of becomes her identity. And then, you know, basically years and years later,

stuff starts happening where she begins to think that maybe her sister is back. And if so, that's not good news because it turns out that everything that she told about her time in the dungeon was not always 100% accurate because there were some details. maybe she like kept out or details that she kind of exaggerated. And again, because there was nobody to dispute what was happening. Right. Her sister who at that point, she didn't know what come of that, she thinks maybe her sister is dead.

And of course, the killer, the serial killer is not going to, you know, come, you know, forward or like, or like present a press release saying, no, that's not what happened. So, so, yeah, it was one of those ideas where you're like, well, if you're telling a story that there's nobody to dispute it, who can really? really then dispute what's what's fact and what's fiction. Right. Yeah. That is the other.

Oh, did we lose gear? No, no. I'm just, I was just lost in awe. I'm in awe. I'm thinking back. I like keep getting like flashbacks of like really like key scenes. And I'm like, oh my God. Because like my one of the things with this, my biggest fear is being abducted.

I don't know who would want a 39 year old with a badass. but like at the end of the day it could happen I guess but especially a 39 year old who thinks he's 38 I know right I'm like no I'm younger actually um I when I was reading this you kind of um you do a very good job with a contrast between what is happening when she's kidnapped with her sister and her present life and like on the outside looking in to anyone other than her they're like thank god she survived like she's got you know husband a child she wrote this book she's healing and everything but then when you're in her mind and you're finding out what really happened when she and her sister were abducted i kept going back and forth so much in my mind whereas like if i if any of this happened to me

or, you know, anything like that, would I want to survive that and deal with everything she's dealing with or would I have preferred to have died? And that was something that I kept going back and forth with the entire time that I read this. So I think that you handled the trauma aspect and like everything like with PTSD like was done so well because I feel like realistically like that's probably something that people deal with every single day who survive, you know, traumatic events like this. So that was something I was very curious. If you had like, I don't know, listen to like true crime podcasts or if you had read any memoirs or any interviews, anything about people that survived traumatic events.

Because if you would tell me that your day job was like a psychologist, I would believe you. Well, that's not my day job. I will say that for several years, I had worked in kind of like the mental health field. I was a case manager for, and that's really kind of was part of the inspiration for a girl gone mad. So, but I had worked with a lot of psychologists and therapists and psychiatrists who had worked with and had, you know, of course, dealt with a lot of kids who dealt with depression, anxiety and in some cases, even PTSD. So that was just one of those things that maybe just in the back of my head I was always very well aware of. I'm trying to think if I had read anything. There was no like specific research done if that makes sense.

But like you guys, I'm, you know, I watch a lot. I read a lot. I watch a lot of like, you know, TV and movies. So it's just one of those things where I don't know. It's just it's just like you just kind of soak things in and you just kind of wear like certain situations how a character is. more than likely going to react. Which, again, it's kind of funny sometimes where you'll see, like, you know, one reader might be like, well, I don't think the character would react that way. And it's like, okay.

But like how many millions of people are in the world? You know what I mean? Like, not everybody's going to react the same way. Now, great, that sometimes characters maybe do things really out of, you know, step. But I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, there's nothing really specific, I guess, that. But it was very, you know, again, very thoughtful.

I knew when I'm, you know, this type of book. I mean, my last book, The Chateau was more of like a murder mystery type of suspense type thing. This one, again, just because I got the subject matter, I knew how to be held, you know, I'd handle it very delicately and made me a little bit more thoughtful than just kind of like, you know, maybe as a few to like other thrillers that I've written because, again, of the subject matter. And again, bouncing back and forth, too. For me, I don't know. Like, I'd always been very resistant to doing that whole before, after thing.

Because I felt like that was, like, that's the trend in these types of books. You know, like, that's just one of the things. And I was very much like, and that's why with Girl Gone Mad, there are flashback chapters, but it's not the whole, like, you know, now chapter, before chapter and kind of bouncing back and forth. In the past couple books, I've begun to embrace that more, I guess. Because it is fun. I mean, you know, like you can play around with time. You can present, you know, information in the present.

And then we flash back in time and we find out that, oh, well, maybe what that's, we're learning in the present, maybe isn't really true. And then, you know, vice versa. And then you can kind of, ideally when I play around with time, I really like to have those present day chapters lead into the past and then kind of vice versa. And then, you know, so like, certainly. things happening in this book where a chapter might end a certain way, but it tees you up for something that happens in the past. Kind of like I think there's, you know, there's one thing where

she goes and sees her mom or we find out that she's going to go see her mom. And in the past, you know, we get a flashback chapter and the very first thing is like, what do you think mom and dad are doing right now? You know, just kind of like trying to kind of like those transitions so they're not as jarring because you are jumping around in time. Yeah. Yeah. And the serial killer was very terrifying. I will give you that.

So the fact that you dreamed up someone like that almost gave me like a little bit of like a Ted Bundy vibe for like some details that I'm not going to say because I don't want to spoil like a single thing. But I was like, oh no, he's actually kind of scarier than Ted Bundy. Like when you get down to like an itty gritty. And so that's why I was just. like very curious what you had done for like research with this because I my favorite trope in

a thriller is a serial killer plot line and sometimes I can be a little judgmental of them because I'm like what sets this serial killer apart from like other ones you know but this one is one that I guarantee you I will never forget and every part of it was believable for me

so props to you I'll send you my my book the serial killer's wife I think you might dick that I would have that that is I'm obsessed with that trope too there's um Audrey J. Cole

had a how to how to book where the woman like finds out after that she was married to a serial killer and like never knew and I think it's like so fascinating yeah because I just it's so crazy how

not only can you like literally be married to a monster but like the way that people get away with things where you have no idea what they're doing is like mind-boggling to me. So I will definitely eat that up. Yeah. So serial killers are interesting in that I feel like, and as you know, because like you just said, you're a huge fan of serial killers. I feel like in fiction, they are everywhere. But I don't know. Personally, as a writer, it's sometimes difficult to write a lot of serial killer books.

because I feel like, I mean, if you look at the world in general, yes, there's some cirriculars out there, but it's not like back in the 70s or 60s when it felt like there were circularers everywhere. And I don't know if that's just because more of just with technology, with just cameras everywhere, it's harder for, I mean, there's still obviously killers out there. But I feel like you don't really hear of serial killers that often. And so creating a serial killer, I don't know. And this is an interesting question for both of you, I guess the motivation. Because initially, I didn't really lean too much into motivation because I'm like,

sometimes we never really find out why. There was a Robert Crace book. I think it was chasing the darkness. Was it chasing the darkness? Yes, I chased the darkness where I kind of felt like at the end, we found out who the killer was. And it was never really like explained. We didn't get that like James Bond villain monologue where it's like, oh, the reason

I'm doing this is this and this. And it's just kind of like, we found out who's the thing. the killer is. And sometimes we don't really need to necessarily know. I mean, do you feel like you always need to have a reason why? Or is it just their crimes? You know what I mean? Like, or it's just the context throughout like the context clues throughout the entire novel, maybe kind of pieces it together. And if you're not listening at like, you know, 2.0 speed, you would probably catch that. Yeah. I think like when, when there may be, like, basically my answer is going to be that I've liked both in different ways. But like when when maybe there just

is something that like slowly we're learning like why he leaves this at every kill site or whatever, maybe there is a reason, then that can be interesting for me. But also like, I just know that there are true sadistic people out there basically. So it's like I'm perfectly fine with also just like assuming that the person had something going on mentally no matter kind of no matter what it was so that's kind of a non-answer but that's what came to mind yeah i think it's like i go back and forth so like if you want to give me a good backstory and like a reasoning as to why i will gobble it up and i'll be like that that is terrifying how something because i think the thing that's like interesting is that a huge thing can happen at any point in our lives and shape us for who we're going to be for the rest of our lives.

But in the same aspect, if you have to force it, then don't is my kind of theory, you know, because sometimes it is scarier when somebody is like, I wanted to murder somebody and see if I could get away with it. I enjoyed the feeling and I kept going. And that is literally the only reason I did it. So I always kind of go to like, I'm a huge fan of like the screen. movies and I always go to them because typically in the screen movies there are usually two killers in some of them. One killer has a motive and the other one is like bat shit crazy and is like I just wanted

to see if we could get away with it or like I just went along for the ride and I'm like what the hell is like scarier than like somebody who has a motive that you didn't even know about that's like in your friend circle or like in your life in some aspect or the person that's in your life and just was like oh I just wanted to try to kill you to see if like this sounded fun so like I think as long as like it's not forced like I really do not care

you know like it's whatever that character feels like to you because like sometimes I think there have been serial killer books that I've read that like the motive seemed pretty forced or it seemed a little like cliched or

like kind of like that meme that's like this could have been avoided if this man would have went to therapy. And sometimes that's all we need to know. You know, like, that's all we, like, he went nuts. And he just is like a very violent piece of shit. And like, those are the, nobody wants to run into that. You know, that's when you choose the bear.

Yeah. So I just think as like long as somebody doesn't, like, force a motive or anything like that, like, it can be scary. And I think that's what's interesting about people that gravitate to them now is that there's not a lot of, like, act. serial killers, but with technology the way that it is, it's also like, if somebody did want to be a serial killer, like, it wouldn't be that hard. Because there's like CCTV everywhere, right? But like, we're also, we're also online sharing our, like, locations with people and, like, updating, everybody's

putting a lot of things about their lives online that you can, like, easily access. So, like, if somebody wanted to kid that me, they like know that like, I'm going to be at the grocery store every Saturday at noon. And then I'm going to go get like a crisp diet Coke. So like you know where to go, you know, just because of like accidentally or like not thinking. Right. Share it online. Yeah.

There was, I don't want to say I guess what the business was, but it was one of those where you can, well, I'll say what it is because it's not really giving anything away. And I think they probably should change it because it's probably like a, sports clips you know what i mean like one of those things where you kind of like can you can basically like see like you know who the stylists are working because i remember being there one time and hearing like one of the other stories talk about how like they had been harassed or like somebody was coming in it was kind of creepy or whatever else and i'm like someone can just go on this app and see who's working that day you know what i mean and just like it's not even their social media

it's like their business essentially is giving their schedule to whoever has access to a publicly, you know, available app. And like you said, if somebody wants to stalk some, I mean, yeah, it's, it is, it's, yeah, it's, yeah, it's very scary. Yeah. I had someone talk about that at great clips, which is like very similar. They're like, we can't, we can't post it anymore. I was like, oh, okay. For that reason, someone was, like, using it to come harass one of them.

I was like, that's just terrible. Yeah. And there have been, like, I listened to crime junkie. very, like very often. And it's kind of crazy how like easy it is for like somebody to stock you and you don't know it. And even like recently with those college students that were murdered in Idaho, like one of, you know, the most terrifying things is that like they used his cell phone data to recognize how many times his phone try to. to connect to the Wi-Fi at their house and like that he had been stalking them from like

April until the night of the murders and I'm like for somebody who thinks that they're so vigilant and so smart like I would you know be shocked to know that somebody followed me from April to November and was stalking me for that long but like people get away with it and that's what's scary yeah you know because you don't even think about the things you post online or when you post a picture

with your friends because you're trying to like share a good memory and then people can just use that information against you. Yeah. But we also shouldn't have to worry about right. It's like people we're not we're not victim blaming. Yeah, no, no, not by any means. It's just it's crazy how people can recognize patterns very quickly and use it against yeah people. Well, and some stuff I mean, it's completely out of, I mean, I don't want to freak you out care, but someone could be stalking you and you'd have no idea. Right. That's what I'm saying.

That's why I brought up like how many times he, his phone tried to connect was from like April to November. And I'm like, that's so, it's so scary to think that somebody could be stalking you for that long or longer without you even knowing, you know? And that's like something that like I've always like taken with me. Especially like I live in a small area and a lot of the areas around me that are bigger than my hometown where I go to grocery shopping and things, it's not unusual for me to see somebody that I recognize,

that I don't know them. We don't have any mutual friends or anything, but like, oh, like, you know, I saw that guy a couple of weeks ago or whatever, but like,

am I just seeing him because he gets his groceries on Saturday mornings? Or is it because he knows he's going to see me every Saturday morning? So, like, that's the thing that I find, like, very interesting and, like,

kind of creepy about a stalker or a serial killer. Like, they both, like, fascinate me, but also terrified. this shit out of me. Yes. And then meanwhile, that guy sees you and being like, is he stalking me? Yeah.

Is he stalking me? Right. That guy following me? Yeah. I'm like, no, sir. I don't have time to follow you because I got to get home and finish this frigging every bishop book because I'm having a hard time putting it down. Because he has every chapter with a cliffhanger and I got to get home.

Sorry, not sorry. Right. I love it. The other thing that I was thinking about when I was reading it too, and especially because we, if a book review is talking about unlikable female characters, I'm like, sign me up, basically. But I know that's not the case with everyone. But for me, it felt like, like Megan is a lot of things. Like, she is a victim and she is a survivor. her. And then she also, like you were talking about, is not 100% honest. Like, she's not,

she's not being honest about everything. But, like, I still felt like I've had, like, empathy for her and, like, felt connected to her still. Was that something that, like, did you, like, work on the balance of, like, of that in her, of her, like, being a victim, but also kind of, like, misrepresenting stuff? Or was it just, like, you were writing her and this was just like who she was. That's interesting. I would say probably a mixture of all of that. I am not somebody who like you.

I mean, this idea like, oh, someone has to be likable, especially like a likable female character, like a likable man. Like I never really worry about likeability. For me, it's more do we understand their motivation? Is there at least, you know, like even like with the serial killer, obviously I don't want you to like the serial killer, do you at least understand the serial killer?

You know, like, like, does their motivation make sense? Like, is it under, you know what I mean? So, like, I never sometimes, you know, and then you'll even have people say, like, I didn't really connect with that character. And that's one of those things. I don't think you can really, you know, you can't, you can't make it, you know, you not, how do I want to say it? Like, everybody is so different.

Like, everybody is not going to connect with the same character or, like, feel the same way and it's one of those things where i guess part of me is conscious of that but i don't really like kind of like bang my head about it because there's only so much you can do so really it's just that character now i will say especially when you write these types of books who like you have like a main character who might have some secrets like it's always finding that balance of how much you you let the reader know because i'm sure you both have read books where there is a secret that the main character has or another character has. And there's really no reason why that secret's not being shared until like the last page

when they're like, here's the twist. And you're like, okay. You know what I mean? And so it's always like if you're like if you're writing these books that have these, you know, it's like how much do you impart? How much do you? Because I feel like a lot of the books that I've done. And I know that people probably don't have time to do it.

but if they go back and reread, they'll see a lot of, like, things were obvious from the very beginning. Where, like, maybe, like, how things were approached or how characters spoke or how, like, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, you know, I can see why, because at the time, it's like when you're writing, especially if you, like, have certain twists coming or if you want to write, be suspenseful in a way. It's like you want to make, you want to the reader to think one thing when something else

is going on. It's this weird slide of hand that sometimes can be successful and sometimes not. But again, it just kind of goes in that, like, how much of that info you're, like, you know, feeding out. So it's like you're fishing. You're just kind of like feeding out a little bit here and there. But at the same time, it's weird because it's like you don't want to obviously give away too much, but you do also want to keep back too much that it feels like, I don't know, like sometimes I feel like a twist has to be earned. Like it has to be one of those things that when you get to it, yes, it's shocking and surprising. But at the same time, you're like, okay, but that makes sense. As opposed to sometimes, and I'm sure you've both read books where you get to that final twist.

And you're like, what? That makes zero sense. It does it like, how is that even possible? And, you know, sometimes those books still are very successful and people rave about them. And I'm looking at them, thinking like, it's not fair. You know, like I feel like it has to be fair to the rear. or the listener or the listener

or the audio book but I feel like it has to be fair it's not one of those things where it just comes out of like you know literally left field

and it's like I decide to throw in this thing where it's like you know the killer is this person who you know

you know like was never even introduced in the book you know yeah it's yeah right yeah I do know what you mean

and I hate yeah because not every thriller has to have a twist either and like I think I can remember if I did this

with you or Hallie Garb, I think it might have been Hallie, but like we were talking about too, like there's a difference between a twist and a reveal and like reveals are wonderful and can also, then like the other weird thing we were talking about was like it can feel like a twisty book with lots of reveals without there being like an actual twist. I think some people forget like that a twist actually should kind of turn a lot of the information on its on its head a little bit. And so sometimes people say twist and it's just a reveal. But you don't have to have a twist in every thriller either. Reveals are just as great. But I think the end, I'm assuming publishing kind of might also be the one pushing twist fear. Yeah, maybe. I mean, but I think the problem is then especially the reader then just starts to anticipate a twist or they start to reveal. And so sometimes as a writer, I try to like maybe kind of keep that in.

mind where it's like, oh, they expect that, you know, by this page, there's going to be something happening. It's like, well, what if something doesn't? You know what I mean? Like kind of like going against those expectations. Yeah. In fact, I even think like, you know, Jeffrey Deaver had talked before because he's always been known about, you know, like the final twist twist. There's always like an extra twist. And he was going to write a book essentially with no twist. And that was going to be the twist that there was going to be no twist because that was so expected of him. So, but yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, and you have reveals. And it's like, Yeah, like I guess the question is like what is essentially what's the definition of a twist?

And I think that's, you know, that's different for a lot of different readers too. True. What they would, you know, say is a surprise or a twist or reveal. Yeah. I'd rather have like reveals sprinkled throughout than like a huge twist at the end that I'm like, oh God, that's like completely unbelievable. And that's like what I really respect about the girls in the dark and other stories of yours is that like, there were things that were like mentioned and it was like you were like sprinkling a little bit of information in like certain chapters and I was like huh I feel like there's like a little bit of an

emphasis on this but you're not like pushing it in my face every chapter there's just like a little like hmm I wonder if that's going to be significant later and then when I did get to the big twist and the girls in the dark I was like oh my my god he was like teasing me with that the whole time and like I didn't pick up on certain things but like I had like an inkling it was kind of like god if I was just like more aware and like putting the pieces together maybe I could have like guess this but I didn't but well but again you read a lot of these books and so I feel like a lot of readers especially I mean it was actually funny I think you guys had interviewed what was it John was John Mars and I think he had talked about

one of the tropes that he, uh, that he doesn't like to read is, uh, about twins. I'm like, and that's the thing too. Like I don't, I don't think in terms of tropes. You know what I mean? Like I don't sit down and say, I'm going to write this type of book or whatever else. It's just it might, you know, can be slotted into a certain trope. And, um, but I, but I get where that's coming from. And, you know, inevitably, I feel like going into it, you know, people are going to like,

you know, because like, I don't know, like, do you guys kind of sit down and when you're reading a book, I feel like some people from page one try to just be a detective and just kind of like, I'm going to figure this out. You know what I mean? Like it's like, as opposed to just like, I'm just going to enjoy myself versus like I am going to be a detective and, you know, and it's like it's almost like a game type thing. And like I figured it out. I always love the whole like, oh, I figured it out like two pages before the reveal. And it was like, well, Sounds like you're pacing. Yeah.

There have been books that I've read, though, where I've guessed the big twist in the end or I thought I've known how it's going to, you know, happen. And even if I was right about the twist or if I was right about how I thought the book was going to turn out, sometimes for me, it's more fun for me to know or guess how it's going to end. but see how we're going to get there. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like when I was reading the girls in the dark, I had a very similar experience that I had with Girl Gone Mad and John Mars books where I didn't know. The more I read, the more I was like, how the hell are we going to wrap this up?

How is this going to end? Like, there's so many things in the air right now with this book. and I don't know what a satisfying ending would be for me because I just keep getting like walloped with these like little reveals and then things where I'm like, is this going to be a happy ending? Is this going to be a very bleak ending? Like, is there going to be a twist? Is there not going to be? So like for me, it just, you kind of kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time. But every time I thought I was trying to figure out what was going on, there would be like not like a huge reveal or a huge twist but there would be something that would happen in the next chapter or I'd be like well that that wouldn't make sense then because now this thing had happened and that kind of like eliminates my theory so far so sometimes with a book like the girls in the dark for me it's just enjoying it and seeing where you're going to take me and how it's going to end and then there are other times I feel like with like a police for a lot of the times is like when I'm like trying to act like I'm a police officer with them like I've gone through the training and I got my badge and I'm a detective and like I try to like figure it out then but I don't know when something's really this fast pace I just kind of want to like go with the story and like going blind almost and have like a general idea of what's it's about yeah so I don't want to

obviously spoil the ending but I will say the very last chapter this is going to sound weird even though I feel like we know what happens I wanted there to be like this weird sense of kind of hope if that makes sense because like you're there being like well maybe maybe things can be different you know what I mean like I don't know again without really giving it away but just basically like the way that final image I want to just kind of really kind of you know I don't know and honestly I was kind of surprised that they were okay with me ending it that way because I kind of feel like it's

I mean again there's there's closure but at the same time we're kind of I don't know just the way it's again I can't talk about this book without spoiling too much yeah right um I felt like the very last chapter for how how dark the book is and everything that happens I felt like it was very therapeutic and it was very like emotional, like emotional. It's almost like, do you know at the end of like every horror movie in existence where the final girl, the one that's left standing,

is usually like through the battle and the sun is always coming up. Always. Right? Like the sun is starting to come up and it's kind of like this really like strange like emotional feeling where like she survived. She's traumatized. But like there's a new day coming. and it's like son out and like you know that like for now she's safe and that's how I felt with

the last chapter of this one like there was this like therapeutic release that was like hopeful but like also like very emotional yeah it almost kind of felt like a breakup yeah somebody who loves like toxic relationships and can't seem to steer away from them um it's like at the end of it you're kind of like sad about everything that you went through but like you're also like well now it's done and now I can like move on and heal until the next asshole comes along but like that's kind of like I felt with this is like I let go of like a lot of like emotional trauma with this character and other characters and it was like there was like a little bit of hope but like also like a little bit of everything that's happened you will not be the same yeah well and that's what I did

put like an epilogue or anything in there because i felt like that would have taken the wind out of things you know what i mean like like especially when you're writing a novel i always feel like obviously it's very important how you end any type of story but i don't know especially with this particular one i've had a handful of people reach out asking if there's going to be like a sequel to the book and i'm like no like i feel like all the infer like you know the story has been told i feel like we kind of anything more would just kind of ruin it. You know, like sometimes you'll be like a sequel to something and you're like, I wish they hadn't done this sequel.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's actually a duology that I like, I loved the first book. And then the second one came out and I read it because I was like, I loved the first one. And then the second one came out and I was like, I don't know. This didn't need to happen. And now that I read it, like I kind of wish that it would have. ended with the first one and suck with that because now these characters are doing something different

and you know the story is going in a different direction than you then you like and it's like but like i think that this ends very like an emotional release so like i don't know yeah but there's also like not a lot you could do with the sequel i feel like no it's like what is you gonna do go through another event traumatic event basically yeah yeah i well so I feel like some some readers they just want 100% closure and a lot of my stuff from more recent stuff especially like my audible original like the chateau like it has an ending I feel like we don't need to see you know the next step that happens because it's infer right you know what I mean like it's there but we don't have to see it like you to kind of understand what happens but I think some people they

really do they want to see you know they don't want to just see the police uh you know showing up at the end they want to see the person put in handcuffs and taking to jail and standing trial and you know what mean like like it's like but we don't need all that like we know what you know so that's like the whole like enter the scene late and exit it early but like maybe some people want you to exit late like just keep going yeah yeah i will say there are i would say like off the top of my head there are three character deaths that I've read in my life that like I thought were very emotional and like really really stuck with me and one of them is from the girls in the dark I would agree thank you yeah yeah there is like one thing that really

tugged at like my heartstrings and like made me very like misty-eyed and I was like Kate I know I need therapy right now I was like it's got to be really really sad if it's if it's getting I still remember your story after you read it and you posted it I think you said something like I am not well or like I am well or whatever I think it's like I hope that

was like I hope it's a good thing yes yes yes it's like that we need the derogatory or like that is like that is like that is like my like this isn't a five star this is a six star like I am unwell I'm like emotionally traumatized I'm disturbed

or like I can't sleep that is Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a very, like, emotional and, like, cinematic ending. Mm-hmm. Well, speaking of cinematic, I know you have another question for him. I was going to say, like, I, you mentioned AMC, or was it Regal earlier? Having worked, yeah, having worked at Regal cinema. Have you been, like, a movie buff for a long time? I mean, again, Jurassic Park when I was in sixth grade.

I mean, you know, like, yeah, I mean, oh, love, especially like, I mean, again, I'm a big thriller fan. So like 90s action movies like the rock conair face off like all of those, you know, movies. And I mean, I still, I still love movies. I love like, especially like Chris Nolan movies. Like, and that was a thing where I remember telling my editor because honestly, I got a lot of pushback from the editor because like there's a lot of jumping around in time at the, you know, towards the end. And they really didn't want that to happen. I basically pushed to kind of keep it the way it was because I felt like, again, that sleight of hand, like we need to see kind of like how Chris Nolan does kind of like that cross

cutting of scenes. Like I felt like if we spend too much time in the present or too much time in the past, we're losing that pacing, that momentum. And so I do. I mean, a lot of my stuff is very, you know, like I see it as like a movie in my head. And so oftentimes I hear people say that like when they're reading it, it's like they're kind of like watching a movie because I don't know it's always this weird thing too because it's like you know what I see in my head doesn't necessarily translate 100% to what other people see but they

somehow trippy for me to think about yeah like none of us saw the same thing when we read it yeah it's wild yeah yeah I have very vivid memories of what exactly how I pictured it it in like the, almost like my eyes were like the camera if this were a movie. And it was very specific, oddly enough. Like, I was looking into one cage and then the second cage was behind it. But I was seeing these characters through the, I don't know what you would call it, like the wire in the cages. But like, it was very cinematic for me. Yeah.

And because I'm a big fan of like horror movies and like the 90s. slasher's and all of those. And there's a line in the girls in the dark that is a line in one of my favorite horror movies. Did I steal something? I wonder. No, it's like very

it's very, it's very, it's very small, but it's exactly said and it's like the very first chapter, so I will not consider this a spoiler. But it's, um, I shouldn't be here, this is a mistake. And that's like a line. It's a line and scream too.

Like very vivid in my mind when Nev Campbell is at, Nev Campbell's roommate is trying to get her to join a sorority to like be more like social and everything. And like the minute she walks in the door, she's like, this is a mistake. I should not be here. And it's like always stuck out in my mind like the way that she said, I love Neff Campbell.

But then I like read this and I was like, my god like I wonder if this was something that was just like stuck in his mind when he was like written and made sense that this character would say it which it does make sense that the character would say it yeah um and then girl gone mad has a plot that is not like similar but um would be like a good comp for one of my favorite horror movies which is valentine with denise richards in it um it deals with like the the trope of having the clicky mean girls that do something like shitty in high school and then like it haunts them as adults and so when I was like reading girl gone mad I was like oh my god this is so good and it's like refreshing and it's something that you're not reading a lot

in thrillers and then I was like this would be so good for people who like Valentine because like it's very you can do a lot with that you know so like even though girl gone mad and Valentine, like, they're very, very, very different from each other. But if you like that, that trope of like, you did something shitty in high school and it's like coming back to haunt you guys and it's almost like a cat and mouse kind of like, who done it, who's next to drop kind of thing. Yeah. So I was like, I wonder if he loves the same movies I love because like, I'm reading these

and I'm like, oh my God, like this is an addictive thriller and it's so cinematic. but it's also like a very good comp for like some of the movies that like people loved in the 90s and early 2000s. So I don't know if I saw Valentine, but I did. But okay. No one did. I mean, I would see the only one. Thank you. Yeah, because I mean, I remember, of course, you know, Denise Richards from the 90s, for me at least, wild things is the only, you know, movie that really sticks out, which which what I love about wild things.

besides, you know, some of the other stuff is, uh, just this twist, twist, you know, like almost too many twists. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was just crazy, crazy twists. But in terms of horror movies, yes, of course, you know, like I remember watching, you know, the, the, the original screen movies, you know, I know, I knew what she had last summer. Remember, like disturbing behavior with Katie Holmes? Oh, like, the faculty, you know, like, oh, yeah, all those 90s.

hard movies. I'll be honest with you. In the last couple years, though, I don't really watch as many horror movies. I mean, I keep up with the new screen movies, probably more out of like nostalgia. I haven't seen the new outcome back or the new, I know what you did last summer. Is that any good? I loved it. I had so much fun with it. There's a very controversial thing in it that like people either love or hate. I personally loved it. But. But yeah, I thought it was like so much fun. I thought it was like and there's like a there's a post credit scene. So I think if you're a fan of like the first two, then you'll really like that too.

I mean, I like the new like weapons. You know, like I don't know, like when it comes to slasher stuff, I will still watch it. But I, they're not as good. I'm always looking for like something like the great thing about scream because again, it went like it was subverting those. expectations of what had already been. And I feel like nowadays, like, what more can be done with a slasher type thing? You know, like, it's not to be a really original idea. Yeah.

Yeah. Because they were so good in the 90s. Like, I know you did last summer is my favorite movie in the entire world. And they were just so good. And then, like, now when I see them on kind of like, I still know what you did last summer? Yes, because I felt like, remember like they go to was that the island. but because they win a radio contest. But like I felt like the radio contest, it sticks out in my head that the answer,

it was one of those like, they should have come up with like a harder question because it was so obvious because like the guy gave like the wrong answer. But the guy's like, you know, you're right. You won. And it's like how does nobody know? Like I don't know. I just kind of felt like they needed a better, you know, I don't know. From the very beginning, it was just very clear like, okay, this is a setup.

Yeah. I, so like I was probably 10 or 11 when I saw it in the movie theater. I keep forgetting your 38, 39. Yeah, in that range. So when I watched it, I was like, oh, that totally makes sense because I'm like 10 years old. And, but I also think the thing that's like very strange to me that I always like think about randomly and I don't know why I hyperfixate on this is that in the 90s, you could have three brain cells and get so much shit, right? Like, you could go on prices right.

You could, people were just, like, giving away a lot of random shit in the 90s. So, like, I'm kind of like, yeah, it kind of makes sense that this radio station, it was before streaming, it was before, like, radio stations probably made a shitload of money in the 90s and could have just, like, done this and been like, there was some goofy intern that was like, oh, my God, I'm just going to, whatever, here, ask this question. But, like, you know, you can go on, you can go on Wheel of Fortune. All you need to know is the alphabet, okay? You can win a car, a treadmill, a vacation, and $50,000 in cash. You go on Jeopardy, you have to know the entire fucking encyclopedia to go on Jeopardy.

You win $500. And they're back to back, right? So you have to know everything in the entire world to get $500 out of like, like, jeopardy but then you just know the alphabet and you get like a vacation treadmill car $500,000 like a trust fund for like three generations of your family members it's like that is wild to me so like that's what I kind of think of when I think of like the the radio um question and I still know you did that summer Price is right if you guys ever want to try to go on prices right or anybody wants

go on price is right a friend of mine his sister-in-law i think got on the show and she actually won and i think what happens and this may have changed because this was a long time ago but basically when people were going in they would just kind of like you know basically like walk down and talk to people and the people and she was just overly enthusiastic like you know screaming jumping around like because they want people obviously who bring high energy um that obviously does not work for jeopardy but just FYI in case you guys ever decided to go on Price of the right.

I want to go on pop culture Jeopardy. You'll probably do really well. I would hope so. I don't know. I got to the age where a lot of Jeopardy questions, I was like, ooh, I'm not really doing too hot on these,

but I still had a fun time playing it in my living room. And then the first season of pop culture Jeopardy, I was like crushing it. I was like, ain't nobody gonna beat me on pop culture Jeopardy. But now I'm at that awkward age, again, like 38, 39,

that the pop culture questions, I'm either like nailing like the nostalgic ones, but like a lot of the ones that are like for like, Gen Z, I'm like, oh, I don't know. Right. So, but I do, even if I just had a good time

and only got like, 400 points, I'd be okay. Yeah. And while I'm thinking about it, Scream 2, that line at the very beginning of the book was actually like a late edition. That wasn't really, I think the chapter just started off with her, you know,

giving her talk. And the editor kind of wanted something a little bit more grabby to pull it in. So I had come up with that. I haven't seen Screen 2 in a very, very long time. I've been meeting actually to go back and like rewatch them now that I guess what was the recent one that came out? seven seven yeah so i don't know i had been kind of re because again the first the first couple even the third one i really like the third one even even the fourth one i remember liking too i feel like

i don't know yeah they're just fun movies but yeah that's very interesting that that line kind of stuck out because yeah i mean it's been forever since i saw a screen too i think i just watched the first two before i oh yeah before i because like those are like my comfort movies so like if i just like can't find something to watch or I just like need something to like you know just watch on TV before I go to bed then it's usually one of them but um the third one is very good to watch now and I think gets a little bit more respect because it's clearly there's something in it that's like a big middle finger to Harvey Weinstein who was like a producer of some of the early ones so like the fact that they like snuck this in in his name on it is like classic like huge middle finger which

makes less crave it even more lovable. Yes. So. I agree. Well, I feel like we could probably talk to you all night long. Yeah. But we're realizing. It works. Um, but all of that said, I mean, if you guys want, I mean, at this point, if they're still listening, of course, they want to read a really, really dark thriller. Um, but this is the one for you. Amen. And again, depending on when people listen to this or watch it, it is being repackaged by Grand Central Publishing in January. So it will be in bookstores. At least Barnes & Noble's, probably like books a million, you know, who knows where else. But it will be more widely available, at least in paperback.

So that should be fun. You heard it here first. Yeah. Save your Christmas gift cards.