Bookwild - Unreliable Narrators and Cons with Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands a.k.a E.G. Scott

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

This week, I'm back with writing duo Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands, a.k.a E.G. Scott!  They share a little about the book they are currently working together, which includes a con plot.  We dive into how cons are orchestrated, why it's hard to stop them, and how our own unreliable narration of ourselves can keep us from catching certain details.  We also share books we've been reading lately that we've enjoyed.Books We Talked AboutSplintersThe Book of LoveThe SplitListen for the LieAnita de Monte Laughs LastThe Coldest CaseYou Know What You DidMissing White WomanWhile We Were Burning Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am back this week with writing duo EG Scott, who is Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands. And we had so much fun the last time we recorded. So I am very excited to do this again. So thank you guys for joining again. Thank you so much for asking us. We had a blast. When Greg said that you had gotten in touch, it was a very easy yes. Oh, I love that.

I know. It was like so much fun. Some of the episodes that get referenced the most to me, are you guys and Hallie Sutton and Ashley Winstead. So hopefully everyone vibed with it as much as we all did. Because I think we could have talked for like three hours probably. For sure. Yeah.

That's a very wonderful company to be in. Did I see that you have, Holly just did another one with you as well, right? She did. She had, she, she, like, does cool things, like, take classes on art theft and, like, forgery. And she was like, I have a. really cool idea. Would you care if we talk about this? And I was like, yes, please, let's talk about it. So we talked a lot about art theft and like what makes art valuable and like how we decide the worth of art. So it was a fun one. And then she had more books than I did. She had a few books about

she had thrillers that include like forgery in the thriller. She was like we could talk about like books that have art theft. I can only think of ones where people steal. manuscripts. Those are the ones I talked about, but she had a couple thrillers I never heard of that I'm bad she talked about. Well, that hasn't been made available, right? Just this morning. Oh, great. Okay. I'll listen to you. I mean, Greg loves a good heist. And there's some stuff in our newest book that you wrote kind of about that topic. I don't want to spoil anything, but in the second half, yeah, you have like a really great idea around an app and art theft or art fakes. Yeah, art fakes. There is an art market component to the new book, which is very much a con man story.

And one of the cons then ends up kind of centering around art at the story. I also just the book that I finished this week, actually, it's not a thriller per se, but it's a great story and it is there is a mystery aspect to it. I have it right here. It's a Laph's last last watch still gonzalez and it is it's great it's really about these two it's two separate narrative timelines both women artists aspiring artists one in the mid 80s in the late 90s and it really goes into a lot of the art market who controls the market, how much of a patriarchal system is still kind of in place in that a lot. So it's interesting.

It's not, again, it's not, it doesn't really have a heist component, but it's interesting historically about the art market. If anyone finds that an interesting. Nice. That's a beautiful cover too. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

It's great. The writing is beautiful. So that's with a look. That's very cool. I know. Add it to the indefinite. or infinite list for sure yeah i we talked about a little bit in hallie's episode but i talk about it often i do i love cons and i love heists so you guys have me very excited about your next one i don't

know what you can talk about with it but um has anything been different with writing this one or what has the process been like? Yeah, I mean, we can probably talk about a good amount of it, although this is the first time we've talked about it. So this is kind of like our, you know, be patient with us because this is part of the process, like figuring out how to talk about a new book. But we are right now in the final round of revisions. And the process has been really fun.

I mean, Greg and I both love con stories also. And this has been a story we've been talking about for a while. I think we were even kind of talking about doing this when we were working on the last book, The Rule of Three. Am I remembering that right, Greg? Yeah, because I do remember us putting together a syllabus around great con movies. So I remember, you know, rewatching, rewatching Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. and nine queens

and we had a bunch of them that we went through. And those were fun revisit. So we've been working our way around to this con story for a while. Yeah. And the kind of like the kernel of the story was, you know,

well, there's like lots of aspects, but one of the ones that are really fascinating to me personally is like how the people who get conned, especially in romance cons, which is what the central con is in this book, how they are always very bright, really intelligent, savvy women for the most part in this our book, she for certain is, you know, how people who are so intelligent and savvy and

so many areas of their lives fall for these con artists. And then, you know, the kind of opposite of that or the other side of that is why con artists target people who have that kind of profile. You know, they're not just going to go after someone who is easily taken or gullible because that wouldn't be a challenge for them. So the kind of kernel of the story, I think, was about like how this one woman got taken and we meet her, you know, after she's, she's been taken, you know, fatally and then kind of like the aftermath with her children. And Greg wrote this amazing con artist, which I'll let him talk a little bit about. But like so kind of dead on with all the qualities of a really good romance con.

Ooh. Yeah. I mean, it was just, I think for both of us, too, I would imagine Liz. I mean, the research process for this was really interesting because there are all these rabbit holes you go down with all these specialized cons. And then so much of the psychopathy of the usually men in this situation perpetrating the. con. I mean, it's really, it's interesting. The psychology is interesting. The profiles are interesting for both the people who are getting conned and the people who are conning. Sometimes there's interesting, fascinating crossover in terms of, you know, upbringing, family experience,

those dynamics that inform that. It's just, there's a lot there. And it's really, and then, and of course, you know, it makes for a really compelling story. Right. Oh, yeah. As they play out. So it was really fun to, it was fun to. It was fun to, to, as Liz mentioned, you know, we're both, we've been fans of con stories for so long. It was, it was fun to dip in and kind of take our, take our own swing at it. Yeah. It's reminding me of that documentary that I can't remember if it was like two or more years ago,

but the Tinder Swindler. Yeah. When you were saying it's somewhat like a romantic con, like, I feel like from what I remember about watching that one, it was the same thing where like it was women that you wouldn't normally expect to like get in that situation and everyone's like why was he even conning them so sounds like you guys have psychologically some of the answers in your book i hope so i hope we've gotten you know those parts of it right you know the tindler's a great example and there was the one before it love fraud which was centered on another romance con man who is like the character is just

unreal. It's like you couldn't even write them and have it be believable. Wow. But I think it's so much about what's interesting to me is, you know, con artists generally and female con artists do this too. They target people who are going to inflate their ego and they're like feelings of superiority, but they're also targeting people who are going to be less inclined to, you know, prosecute or follow up because they are ashamed. You know, no one wants to admit that they've been taken. And they definitely, you know, I think most people don't want to admit when they've been taken romantically and then financially or whatever else the kind of like central con was. And I think that's a really interesting

phenomenon, like the stories that we tell ourselves, you know, in the fantasy life, especially like when you're becoming enamored or falling in love with someone and they're like really love bombing you and the way that these romance cons do. Like once you've been pulled into that and you go through like, you know, a whole relationship and like tell your family and friends about it or don't tell them about it. Then once you're like, you've realized you've been taken, you know, that, that shame and that realization and not wanting to admit, you know, like, he got me or she got me because.

Yeah. And I think that's why so many of these con artists end up getting away with it. for so long. Yeah. But then this advent of like kind of crowdsourcing common, you know, um, victims that like people do websites and say this person con me and then 20 more people jump on and they're like, they conned me too. Yes. I think. Yeah. It's only way to stop it. Yeah. That totally makes sense because if I think about it, I'd be embarrassed to admit if I was conned. So like that would be really hard for me to want to do anything. about it other than some vigilante revenge, but I'm not as tough as the books I read.

Well, that's funny you say vigilante, Greg, where you're going to say something about that. Well, there is, it's funny. I mean, there is, with our new book, there is, uh, the consideration at one point of vigilante justice. It's, some of the tension comes from how much, you know, you work within the framework of what you're given. And a lot of times, uh, apprehension and prosecution is really difficult with a lot of these people, sort of to Liz's point, because a lot of these go unreported or underreported simply because people are feeling gullible or feel shame around it. So they're not necessarily reporting it to the authorities. The authorities also, I mean, some of these, the Tinder Swindler and some of these that we've talked about, you know, they cover a little bit of that

of that of how the legality can also be kind of slippery because a lot of people know how to work just within the parameters of the legal system to avoid actually racking up charges or being, you know, captured. So that's also really interesting. The legality around it is interesting. So then when you look at the, you know, how people are inclined to sometimes take matters into their own hands, you know, versus working within the framework of a system. Yeah, all of it's really into the legal aspects, the psychological aspects of the victim and of the perpetrators in that way. I mean, part of the fun of researching this was that Liz and I would occasionally go back and forth and say, oh, have you watched this Netflix series? Have you watched this doc? Have you listened to this podcast?

So it was, I mean, it was a really immersive and really fun sort of loose research process that was just us kicking back and forth. Because there is so much, as you were saying, you know, now that people, now that there are more of these public forums and social media, there are more of these communities where people, you know, it does help, I think, when you have, if you're feeling really isolated, part of the, part of the con itself is the isolation of the mark, right? And then the ensuing shame and feeling like you've been had, but having more vocal presence and having more of these groups who form these communities and can be there for each other. Yeah.

Also really helps to kind of blow the lid off of it in a lot of ways. So I think that that has been the awareness, you know, as with many things, the awareness around these kind of things has helped to kind of expose quite a bit more. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And it is, I see where it's such a fun thing in a thriller because so much of like thriller stuff too is like, how well do you know the people closest to you or whatever is like such a common like, well, it's a scary thing to think about. that's why it's like really good in thrillers but then with cons it's the same thing like someone gets close to you and then does something and you're like if it is the hardest part about it is

how much you like question your own agency or like your own intelligence would be like so overwhelming yes yeah that's such a good point and I think one of the things we really love to unpack in all of our books, but this one especially is, you know, I think this gets said a lot, the unreliable narrator, but really, like, con artists, murderers, you know, kind of all the baddies, if you look at them, they are all the ultimate unreliable narrators, but there's, like, so much gaslighting that they do with their, like, duplicitous personalities, and then their victims, they gaslight themselves. Like, it's like they start the gaslighting process, but then, you know, people who have been victim to, in books and in real life, like, you just have

characters who are, like, constantly questioning their own reality and their own sanity. And, like, that makes for certainly psychological, you know, thrillers that there's always that kind of component, like, you know, are there thoughts in alignment with what's actually happening? We don't know yet. Yeah. That's a good point. It is, like, a unique, unreliable narrative. Yeah, because they just don't know. Right. Well, I think to continue with that, too,

what's particularly interesting about the con stuff is that confirmation bias, like individual confirmation bias is used so effectively, usually against the mark, right? I mean, cons usually are very intuitive. They have, they're very observational. They can go in and they can figure out what that thing is that the mark wants to believe about themselves, about the relationship, about their own station, whatever it is, you know, social standing.

And they're usually able to really key into that. So that was one of the things that to me was really especially fascinating as getting into these characters' heads is how much that kind of confirmation bias can be sort of isolated case by case and then flipped on the person. And then the flip side of that, and Liz and I have been talking about that more recently, as we're coming together with, you know, as we're bringing this thing home with the, the manuscript is how then you can flip that ultimately on the, on the person doing the conning as well, because that person also has the same blind spots psychologically that others do.

And oftentimes because they fancy themselves, you know, highly intelligent, that also makes them more susceptible to the kinds of things that they employ against their marks. So the whole thing is this very interesting kind of, you know, cat and mouse of this very circular sort of pursuit. Right. That's fascinating. It's kind of making me think of cults as well. Probably because I'm thinking of like people with superiority complexes too. But Tyler was just telling me there was a doc he wants to watch on Netflix called The Program.

But it was when he brought it up, it was. making me think, um, like some of the tactics that like a good therapist would use with you would be like good for getting you to an emotional place. Like if you needed to like work through something, it's good to be able to get someone to that place. But then I'm trying to remember what it was. It might have been, oh no, it's actually like a super simple example. I was watching Vanderpump rules last week and it was it was a reality TV trope where like, some, like, someone comes in to help them do like guided meditation and yoga or guided meditation first though. And so then she's like leading them and is like if there's anything just like heavy that has

been in you and like any of those feelings you haven't been wanting to feel like just want to let you like bubble them to the surface and like technically if you were like working with someone one on one who was trying to help you with that, it would be good. But like in this case, they were definitely doing it for TV and like all of this girl's feelings. like just like a ton of feelings came up out of nowhere and I'm not saying that the person who did that guided meditation was like trying to do cult level stuff but when I was watching that it was reminding me of like if you just know like a couple things to say to people that can be used in a good way you could just as easily use it to get someone like wow you're the only one who like

knew how to get this out of me or whatever and then they're like a blind follower of it so it's kind of reminding me of like the cult stuff too. Well, I think every cult leader is a con man. I think the whole idea of putting yourself at the center and then having people like drink your Kool-Aid, so to speak, you know, you have to have that sense of, you know, narcissism and sociopathy to control and manipulate and exploit people. And around the time when we were, you know, really getting into the writing of this was when there was this, like, huge influx of con artist documentaries and mini-series and, like, what I like to call entrepreneurs. So those are, like, the con artists that run, like, Fortune 500 companies. So, like, Elizabeth Holmes and,

you know, the WeWorks guy, Adam, whose last name I'm forgetting, like, there were, they were, like, what's that? Newman. I'm Newman, yeah. Thank you. But it's, it's like, those are corporate cults and then there's the yoga cults and then there's you know fill in the blink I think that con artists who work you know on like a more macro level you know

are really fascinating although our con artist is more micro he's kind of like one on one I don't think I don't think some of these guys or women can multitask but I think you're so right Kate like there is

a direct line between cults and cons I mean, I think colds are caught. Yeah, that too. Yeah. And if you just know how to get someone emotional, sometimes it's really easy to then just be like, well, I got you there. Or they like just believe that like you know something about them that they didn't know. But it's like if someone told you like, think of all the negative feelings you've had and just let them come up. Like that might just happen. Like if you're just focusing on it, we all have negative feelings and they can overwhelm you in that moment. It is tricky. An emotional manipulation in the wrong hands. You know, if someone has that knowledge and then they find a vulnerable person. I mean, it's just like game on. Yeah.

Totally. When you said entrepreneurs, I of course have to get my other reality TV reference in here, but Jen Shaw was the same thing where like she literally got arrested on while she was filming. But like her cons were like conning the elderly with. like phone calls and like services and just like taking their money and I'm like that is ruthless. Like I can't even imagine being that ruthless. Oh, she's, yeah, talk about cold blooded.

And she was so kind of narcissistic and arrogant that she would like have there be recordings of like mistreatment against employees, you know, just like her meeting with the actual accomplices. and she would still, like, say, no, that's not what that is. Like, you're not hearing it right. Like, she was so good at manipulating reality to her benefit. I mean, I hate to say, like, she's a good con artist, but she definitely, you know, she earned the title. Yeah.

Well, do you, and like, I always wonder, do you feel like, like, with people like that where, like, there's recorded evidence, it happens on reality TV a lot, too, because there will be textbook people who are like, no, I didn't do that. and there's literal video footage and they're still just like, no, that's not what happened. Sometimes I'm like, have they convinced themselves? Like, is it not hard for them to like lie because it's like not a lie in their mind? Like did she genuinely believe? Like, no, that's not what it was.

You're just not seeing it right, which is like scary to think about that. Someone could lie to themselves that well. But I think we on some level we all do. That's what's interesting about. I mentioned confirmation bias early. They actually did a study several years back where they took, there was a, I can't remember if they, if they staged it or if it was an actual thing, but there was some sort of like a traffic altercation, right? And it was, you know, at a, in a, like a intersection. And they had, they had video, like surveillance cameras out. So you had in front of you, you had like a recorded objective kind of account of what happened, you know, in what order, who was. all that kind of thing. And they rounded up a bunch of, a bunch of witnesses to this accident. And when they got the witness accounts, every witness had a slightly different version of the

account, right? And you start to realize how much that is that we do all kind of deceive ourselves in some way because each one of us is operating within the context of how we see the world, what we might think of this particular group, how, who we assume has, you know, power or who's right or who has authority in a situation. And so every bit of that is informing what your worldview is. And so each of us are always, you know, we have this, it's like, obviously, in thrillers, you have the whole idea of the unreliable narrator. That's going to mean a very specific thing.

That's like the, you know, the person who's, you know, has a drinking problem or they're somehow not present, you know. But I think the more interesting version of the unreliable, the unreliable narrator is that each and every one of us in our own lives is actually. an unreliable narrator. You know, that's actually more of a much more nuanced thing than sometimes our version in the thriller world is. But it's a fascinating psychological thing, you know.

It is. That is something I have, like, thought about probably a little too often. Just like, I went to therapy a lot in my early 20s and, like, learned a lot about gaslighting, learn about that. And even to your point earlier, Elizabeth, how, like, if you. You've been around people who gaslight you. You start, you do start gaslighting yourself. Because even just because you lose your version of reality, so you're just kind of like,

what do I even know? But having gone through therapy for some of those issues, that's obviously something that has like stuck in my mind. And sometimes I do remember where it's like I also, it's kind of like you never can completely transcend your own perspective is kind of like where I'm going with it. There's no, no matter how much you like learn or like try to challenge yourself, you're never going to be able to completely get out of your own perspective. So that's like where having other people in your life who can challenge you or something is beneficial. But it's always, it's also a little bit freaky because then if you accept that like you have your own unreliable bias or whatever, that can start to get freaky.

So I've always thought it would be a fascinating book. to write that was like both people or like where multiple characters have their own perspectives, but it's not because they're bad people necessarily. And that like each chapter, you like shift your perspective on what actually happened because you're like shifting with each character. But it's not because they're evil. It's just like everyone has it. So it is such a fascinating concept and sometimes shows me out. It's kind of like the affair, like that narrative model they used for the affair. That was really fascinating.

Yes. Where Roshima, I know. I was going to say it again. I was like, I've talked about the affair like three weeks in a row, but I was like, that was what I was thinking of too. They did it the best where it's like some of the events were still the same, but they were different based off like who you're with. Such a, such a cool model in stories.

And the great, I think the thing that they did, at least, least in the first couple of seasons, because I'm just saying that because I didn't stay with that the whole time, is like they would show the same scene differently, but it was like so small, so subtle, like the color of a shirt or the lighting that you as a viewer are also questioning your own, like, recollection. You know, so it was like a Russian doll of unreliable narrators. It's like, wait, did I remember this wrong or is that actually different? You know, it's so good. The scene that like will always, oh, sorry, go ahead.

Go ahead. The scene that will always stick with me. Sorry, we're all trying to talk. I'll say it really fast. The scene that when you were saying that, it's in like the first episode is like, and I don't remember the character names anymore at this point, but the man who is married with children and then sees her at the diner, like there's just this.

subtle difference where like in his perspective she's kind of like wearing a short skirt and kind of like looking at him a couple times before she comes over and like in hers she's like depressed spoiler alert the show's been out for a while because like her son died and she's like oh i'm just going to work and i'm just taking orders and so like to her it couldn't be any more different but like having that in like the opening episode i was like you guys just are fantastic writers well and clearly that episode aired how long ago and we're all remembered. Like that is the scene that I think about too. Like her hair in her memory is different than in his. Right. Which is wild. But it also, it also, it's interesting when you, when you pick it apart because sort of with the con stuff we're talking about is,

you know, his interpretation plays towards his vanity, right? Interpretation plays for, you know, him, him fancying himself as like an attractive man and then her flirting with him confirms that and that these are the little things that you know a good i i apologize again for the term good an effect let's say an effective con artist uh he's good at you know can pick up on those things what what do you what does this person need what is this what's lacking in this person's day to day what's that thing i can key into and kind of stoke that vanity or that ego or that kind of thing and it really it's it's you know i think i think that is kind of to to what our conversation is going toward i think it's

a compelling narrative model and such a compelling team because it's so much of that psychology and that micro psychology. Right. Yeah. Totally. It's fascinating for sure. So you said, you kind of said Greg is maybe writing the con man. So is this another case where you're writing one character and he's writing one character? Yes. We are both writing the same characters. We have multiple but it's a little bit different. This book is a little bit of a shift for us where our first three books, and Greg, please correct me if I'm wrong,

because I've been like this with the manuscript for the last three days, so I also am not reliable narrator, but our first three books were told in first person from the character's POVs. And this book is in third person. Yeah. It's shifting.

It's shifting. Third, yeah. And I think that, you know, it was really interesting when we decided to kind of change that. It opened up certain things, I think, in the writing experience. So even though we were changing that but still writing from the point of view of our kind of like elected characters, I don't know, it opened up for me at least when I would have the characters that Greg was writing in my chapters. it kind of felt like there was more freedom to explore their voice, if that makes sense. So this, for whatever reason, felt more like fluid, I think, than our previous books,

the writing experience. And things kind of meshed, I think, more easily. I don't know if you would agree with that. I do. I do it. I think you're right. I think there's a certain freedom to that, especially when you're talking about the type of story that we've written, having the close third, open.

opens up a certain level of narrative irony that you don't have in the first. So that you there's a little bit of, I mean, you're with the character, but there's also enough separation that you're able to, I think in the writing, you can suggest a little bit more to the reader. Like this is how this character sees themselves, but there's enough objectivity in that POV where you can also suggest that maybe that's not quite right. You know? So it allows you,

in a different way maybe there's that sort of narrative tension that you can build into that thing. And then as the thing spirals further out and as you're getting new information on different characters, you can kind of build that tension. So it also has a nice momentum to it. Yeah. I saw a writer who was talking about that how like sometimes it feels like first person perspective, it's tempting to think that gives you the most information about the character or gets you as close as possible. but actually in keeping with everything we just talked about, actually this fits in, she was saying with third person,

like you're able to talk about things about the character that the character can't admit about themselves or like doesn't know about themselves. So like in some ways, like the biases that they have, technically you could talk about them in third person where like in first person you can't say like, I struggle with thinking this when, this is actually true. Like you wouldn't think that way in first person. Yeah, I agree with that.

I think that's a really good point. I think the challenge with, you know, with first person writing a thriller or a mystery, it's so interior and it's like so much more, I think, compact in the feeling of it that there are some advantages if you're trying to withhold information from the reader, you know, and you don't have to. have your character development be quite as, you know, spacious. You don't, you can go into their past, but you don't really have to give like a chronological, you know, here's everything that's never happened to them. You really only need the information that's going to affect the story. And I think with this book, there was like, again, kind of more space for us to like look at the

psychologies, even if it wasn't directly pertinent to like the scene or the story at large, you know, So it's kind of more, I don't know, I think we got into the characters in our lives as much as their outer lives in this book. And part of what helped to facilitate that as well is that this was a less procedural-oriented book. And the first three, we had the detectives that were the through line through all three of those. So the case was a case, but then you always had Wolcott-Sylvestri, alternating chapters, and you're kind of getting their perspective.

With this one, it's much less procedural. There is a pair of detectives who are on the case, but they're much more peripheral in terms of the story. So we also just had more in terms of actual space and like page count and word count to delve in more the psychology and the layering of all of these characters. Backstory, you get a lot more. I think, you know, we just, again, just because we had more actual physical space to work with backstory. and delve into some stuff and then see how all of these things end up connecting in interesting ways. So that was, it was a different process in terms of psychological writing or just more

of that than we've had before, which was, which was really cool. That is cool. I can remember if I asked you the last time you guys were on or not, but do you guys outline before you write or do you just kind of have a general idea and then you write back and forth. It's been different for every book. But we we outlined this book, you know, and, you know, did chapter outlines. I mean, part of that has to do with working with the publisher and, you know, not just saying we're working on a book spec and then have them be like, great, do whatever you want, you know, so there's some of that. And that's a good,

that's a good aspect, I think, to kind of keep us focused for sure. If I didn't and when I write individually and if I didn't work with Greg, I am not good at outlining. This is like one of the major benefits to our partnership as I think we both bring different things to the process. And because Greg has experience, especially in like screenwriting, he's really good at being able to take like a lot of ideas and then condense them down into like chapter capsules, which are critical. for actually sitting down. So we'll do the whole outline. And in this case, we did the whole outline. And we have the chapter breakdowns,

which I depend on. Otherwise, I'll sit down and I'll just stop and cry and curl into a ball. But then we can kind of riff on the individual chapters. Yeah. And in this case, actually, all of that being said, in this case, we did end up reconfiguring a pretty good chunk of Act 3 because we were getting, we were far enough. At the time we had a phone, I remember the phone call,

actually, I was on my way downtown to go to a book event at the Mysterious Book Shop. And I got a call from Liz, and we got on and we talked. And we were at the point where we realized that we could, you know, we were far enough along and we knew the characters well enough and the scenarios and the kind of the tensions that were already there, that Liz had some really great ideas for how we could maximize the tension that was sort of already part of the story and just really bump it up. And it was also, you know, when you're when you're early on in the process, it's like you're still trying to figure out who these characters are, right? So you're still kind of getting to know them.

What are their motivations? You know, what would they, how would they react in a particular situation, right? By the time you get a little further on, they start to fall more into place. And, you know, if it's going really well, it's like they're kind of speaking to you and they're kind of giving you the answers on stuff. And at that point, we were far enough along that we, I think, you know, we had maybe gone through and we were kind of looking ahead a little bit at like how Act 3 was shaping up. And Liz had these great thoughts of how we could kind of ramp the stakes up a little bit more, how we could throw like more tension in there, just make everything a little bigger to really bring the story home. And so we did end up kind of shifting mid, you know, mid act on that third act thing.

And I think it really enriched the story quite a bit. Nice. Especially with that third act. Yeah. Yeah. Making it bigger and better is probably pretty fun experience. Like you're to that point. And I completely like blacked all of that out.

So thank God you remember. You're like the institutional memory of our writing process. Oh, my God. As you were saying, I was like, oh, right, we did have that conversation. Right. Yeah. I mean, it was really great. And it was actually, I came out.

I remember coming off of that phone call really excited. Yeah, me too. I do remember. Yeah, we can do. And it's funny because what you end up doing is the further you go. You know, you do have this idea of how the general shape of the story. And in our case, we have kind of the chapter breakdown. But you get into a point where you start to like, sometimes something will present itself

that you didn't lay out, right? As you get to know the character before. And sometimes you've laid groundwork already that you don't anticipate is going to go somewhere. But then when you start looking at the overall shape of the thing, once you're far enough in, you realize, like, oh, I can take that thread from Act 2, and that can actually tie back around. Like, I can bring that back around somewhere in Act 3, and it'll be really satisfying for the reader. You know, it'll close that storyline in a really interesting way. Or this character that we kind of threw in there and weren't sure exactly where they would go, like suddenly they're playing more of a pivotal role than, you know, you might have anticipated. things like that are just kind of

that's like the fun of really being in a manuscript once you're once you have the story the feel for the story you know yeah that's really cool so if you guys are revising do you have any rough ideas of when it'll come out obviously if you don't that's fine

no we're actually we're due out spring 25 so probably a year from now and we're pretty far long we have a title which is always subject to change, but right now it's trust issues. And we have a book jacket in development. And yeah, I mean, we're, we're very close to it being finished. It's just tinkering now.

Yeah. Yeah. Just the finishing touches at this point. So you heard it here first. Trust issues. Trust issues. Spring 25. I was love that. I hope I was allowed to say that. I think it's. Yeah. If you're not, just let me know and I can cut it out. Well, this is again, as Liz said, with a caveat that, you know, these things are always open to change. Right, right. With the woman inside, we actually did. That was one of the last things that we actually got cemented with that book was the title.

I know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we had, I think, a half a dozen working titles or something before we actually landed on women inside, I think. Right. You're remembering that right? Well, the original title was the last wife. Right. And Samantha Downing's book was coming out from Penguin Random House the same season, maybe even the same month.

And I'm forgetting which imprint, but it was the same sales group. Berkeley. Berkeley, thank you. See, memory. And that was my lovely wife, which is a phenomenal thriller. And, you know, the very wise sales reps said, you know, when we go to the booksellers, we need to have some name differential so that they don't get confused. And these two books don't kind of get matched as, you know, into the same one. And we were,

you know, still very honored to have Samantha keep that title because it's perfect for that book. But yeah, it was like, okay, what do we call ours now? And then, you know, this begins the email thread and everyone has suggestions. Yeah. Yeah. When you're in publishing with all that stuff, everything ends up being by committee. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sales team in promotion and, you know, your editor and like any number of other people

who are making decisions about, you know, executive decisions who are thinking toward the marketplace, toward branding the book, your readership, all of these various things. So it's wonderful to have that. It's just things can change, you know, many, many times over in the course of any given discussion, whether it's, you know, how do you. want to brand the how do you want to you know a visual style in terms of branding the cover in terms of even our even e.g. Scott I can't remember if we have told you this at some point. That was. I don't think so. Okay. So originally we were going to go with our middle names.

We were in both of our middle names as a, you know, because we always wanted to have a unifying pen name that, you know, the goal was to make it, you know, sound as if it came from one writer, right? So we originally were going to do McCullough Scott, which would have been a combination of both of our middle names. And we went to Dutton with that. And they thought collectively, everyone thought it came off as more of a like a romance author than a thriller author. Oh. You know, so Liz and I still. You're like, that's not what we're writing.

But Liz and I still to this day will joke. It's like if the thriller thing falls through, then we have our second, we have our second career already lined up. We have the name for it. In fact, I mean, we joke about it, but then I see how well like Ashley Winstead does it. I'm like, well, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't have even thought that was possible, but yet there she is, killing both. I know, literally. Like, wow.

I'm not romantic enough to pull it off. I know I'm not. I couldn't do both. I wouldn't even know where to begin. I know it should be very obvious that like with a relationship. Yes. you know, lack of one, but it's such, I think it's such an art in and of itself to write a really satisfying, you know, romance novel. And from what I gather, romance readers are even more, you know,

voracious and, you know, tenacious than thrillers, readers, you know, their conferences, is their conventions and you really have to, you know, do that well. You can't like have a subpar romance novel that will meet their expectations. And I respect that, you know, if you're going to go hard into a genre, you have, you should have high standards. Right. Totally. I'm just in awe of the fact that, like, she can do both that exceptionally well.

That to me. I know. Yeah. No, I totally agree. Well, writers who jump around genres are amazing. I just think that is such a cool skill. Oh, yeah. Totally.

Well, this is a little bit of a good segue to talk briefly. Greg, you wrote historical fiction here recently with the gimlet slip. Yes. So what was what was that like as much as you can talk about it? Well, as you know, I have a wonderful co-author in Liz. So that part of it actually made it a lot of you, you know, the idea of like writing something with a writing partner already wasn't daunting. For Fiona, it made a little bit more.

I mean, simply because that's her normal mode. So that helped. Right. The thing for me that was, I guess, maybe the big challenge or the biggest thing that was outside of my general experience from writing contemporary thrillers was having the level of research. I mean, we do research on our stuff.

You know, we also joke Liz and I that either of our laptops is just like an FBI treasure trove waiting to be discovered. Because it's like the kind of things about like, you know, how long does it take to, you know, to poison somebody with like, I don't know, pick your acid, right? But with historical, it's a whole different set of research because you're, you have to really get all the period stuff right. So it's just, I mean, contemporary research is a challenge in, in and of itself. But when you're researching something that, you know, happened 90 years ago, there's

just a lot of things, you know, that place isn't there anymore. The vernacular is entirely different. Procedural stuff may be different. Cidal things may be different. They're different. You know, the politics are different. There are all kinds of things. So that to me was the big thing. I was, I was very, I have a great amount of respect for historical fiction authors for the amount of research just that goes into, you know, any book that they're writing. That was an eye opener. Yeah. You know, I'm very much in awe of that. I was. say that was the new experience for me. Yeah.

From writing was that was, yeah. Yeah, writing and like, because like the dialect would just would be completely different too was like what I even think about when I think about historical fiction is like, how do you, because you can't go live in the 1930s. Like you're just going to have to find it from other places, but they obviously talked completely different than us. So like even on that level, I can't even imagine. It would be a lot.

But it was fun. It was fun. And it was a short-form thing. So it also wasn't, you know, I wasn't researching a 300-page, you know, 350-page novel on my own. It was tighter. And, you know, so you can, you can absorb a little more of that in there. But yeah, no, it's really interesting.

Yeah. And when people, I think with historical stuff, when you read it done really well, it's always, you can tell that the person's done a lot of research. But then when it's done really well, it's like, the research that like there's probably you know several times the amount of actual research that you read in the book by the time the book it's also knowing like what part and this happens with blues and i to to a different extent as well as like we'll do a ton of research up front and then it's like what do you what do you leave in like what best serves the story versus what's

the stuff that you just learned and you really want to share but it doesn't quite meld you know what i mean it's like sometimes you know you read that and you're like oh that person just wanted to like like show off the fact that they did a lot of research. Yes. I understand the temptation for that because you've put a lot of time into it. But sometimes it's like more of what judiciously snipping the stuff that kind of doesn't, you know, serve the pace of the story or doesn't really key into the one of the main platform, what have you.

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. And that was for Audible specifically, right? No, that was for, it was for PRH audio. Oh, okay. Yeah, so it's actually, so through Dutton, we're both Dutton authors, and then PRH audio is a really nice job on it. I mean, we got great narrators and they did a nice job with a blowout.

So it's cool. But I think part of what that is, too, is, you know, Audible has had, Audible kind of has moved now to a lot more of these fully scripted projects, where it's, we're almost like old, like old style radio plays. Yeah. And they do these, you know, they do, you know, sound mixing effects, big production on that. And so I think that the traditional imprints also are realizing that there's this big market now that they can do stuff that's not necessarily just like the audio version of a novel. You know, you can do stuff.

This was a novella length. I think it came in around 100 pages. So that's something you wouldn't traditionally have a print market for, but you can do it as an audio because it's, you know. Yeah. You can have different lengths and different formats and things. Yeah. I don't end up listening to audiobooks as much when you said the production part. I've had so many people tell me that Lisa Jules, her most recent one, none of this is true.

It like centers around a podcast host and they said the way they like produce the audio book, it like legit sounds like you're like listening to a produced podcast during those chapters. I was like, I've already read the book, but you're almost making me want to listen to it. Yeah, it is cool that they're doing that. It is unique. I just end up liking to read is what I end up going back to. Same way. Yeah.

Yeah. That's where I end up at least. Have you guys, go ahead. No, I was just going to say I have not been a big audiobook person, but I also don't spend a lot of time in the car. And I think that factors in, but I know people who like listen to audiobooks and run or exercise. And I just, that's never worked for me. It's just like being able to sit.

down and read. It also is like kind of part in parcel with like getting cozy and stationary. Yes. I agree. It's a strange. Like I associate listening and podcast to like doing the dishes or cooking a meal. Yep. But it's a little hard to full length. Like I need to like paint an entire room. You know? And like. But I've been getting a lot done since Greg did their audio. Greg and Fiona did their audio book. Nice. Yeah, mine is like I can listen to podcasts while I'm cooking or cleaning because it doesn't really matter if my mind wanders. And I think that's what I run into with like books is like sometimes your mind wanders and then you're like, wait, I don't know what's happening in this book anymore. But if happens with a podcast, it doesn't typically matter for me. So right. I think that's where

I end up coming from. Me too. Yeah. But have you guys read anything recently that you've been loving? Greg kind of shared one already. Yeah. Well, I am currently doing two at once because I'll do like a nonfiction and the fiction. Or right now I'm reading Leslie Jameson's most recent memoir, Splinters, which is wonderful. It's phenomenal. She's such a good writer. And then I'm also doing the Book of Love, Kelly Link's book, which is so good. And it's got, you know, which kind of.

and high school and multiverses and it's like not necessarily the kind of genre and it's genre bending that I would normally go for but she's an exquisite writer and it's just so good and it's the tension the narrative tension is there so if you like thrillers I really recommend it yeah there's like a ton of stuff coming out like I was just looking at my TBR and you know there's a new ton of French and I haven't you know she hasn't had anything out for a while and yeah end of story I still haven't read I've been hearing amazing things about the split kit fricks thriller have you guys read that I haven't read it and then listen for the lie you need Tentara is supposed to be awesome you read that yes it's amazing it's gonna be one of my

top for 24 all right I might have to It is very fun. Yeah. I'm really, really biased to a snarky, to a snarky narrator. So, like, if it's voicy, I'm pretty sold. But, like, also the way the who-done it unfolds is really cool. Okay. Oh, see, there's too many.

There's always too many. Always, always. So I mentioned Anita Demonte laughs last, which I finished and loved. I'm right now, really. reading. It's an arc, but it's Tessa Weigert's the coldest case, which is going to be out. I think it's October, November, but this is- I think so. Yeah, and this is the last one in the Shana Merchant series. This is going to wrap that series up. So I'm very, I mean, it's great, and it's on par with her stuff. And then, yeah, what else? Oh, yeah, in terms of stuff coming out.

K.T. Wins book comes out. Her debut is out in a couple of weeks. That's another. it's called you know what you did i've heard great early stuff about that and then kelly yeah and then kelly garrett's um her new name comes out at the end of april and i'm very excited for that one as well i love their last one so that's i'm i was i was reading it a couple weeks ago when i was sick and like it was the only thing keeping me going like i was like i can keep reading at least so like it's even like a fever dream reading the book But it was so good. I was like kind of okay with the fact that I was mostly able to read it in one sitting.

When is that one else? She's amazing. That's April 30th, I think. I actually recorded an episode with her about it, but it comes out on her pub date. Oh, amazing. So I think it's the 30th. That sounds right. I think that's right.

Yeah. Well, Kate, you've mentioned a couple, but I'm dying to know what you've loved recently. Yeah. So I read while we were burning by Sarah Coffee. And it is kind of, it's like a woman in a wealthy neighborhood. Her friend is murdered and she gets really obsessed with like the police days of suicide. And she's like, I don't, I don't think so though. Like I think she was murdered.

She gets really obsessed with it. Her husband tells her like, you need to get an assistant because like her life is devolving because she's getting so obsessed. So she hires an assistant and the assistant is a black woman whose black son was murdered in that neighborhood. So you know that she took the job for a reason, but you don't quite know why. So it turns into like a cat and mouse type thriller. So that one was super fun. I mean, it's fun and it's also like really touches on like racism and classism. So like there's some heavier elements as well.

But I really enjoyed that one a lot. Missing White Woman, I loved it so much. Hers and Omina Oktar had Almost Shirley Dead come out here a couple months ago. And I loved that one. And she and Kelly both use, so like Omina's Almost Shirley Dead uses like a podcast as a way to kind of move some of the story along about a missing woman. and then missing white woman uses like a popular ticotker who's like getting obsessed with it so both those books also kind of touch on our like obsession with true crime and how easy it is to lose uh lose connection with the fact that they're real people um so i thought those were really cool what was the other one that i read recently oh i read megan miranda's newest daughter of mine oh yeah that one comes out in May or June, I think. And it was really, really good. It was like kind of like a family small town saga, like stuff from multiple generations kind of all come together. And it was really good.

I really enjoyed it as well. How do you balance reading time with podcasting time with everything else in your life? That's a great question. Tell me. I just read a lot. and what is it it's kind of like when i wake up i read before i need to start doing stuff and then i really can read a lot at night if my night is mostly cleared yeah but it is i do do it between reading and podcasting and now trying to write as well i'm like i have a lot of extra book stuff going on in my life yeah well it's funny you said that because with the last time we talked to you, you were talking a little bit about starting to write something. So I don't know if

that's what this is, but I did want to ask you. And I wasn't going to if you didn't bring it up, because I know it can be a touchy subject. But it's not what you're writing. I am. And it has been fun and interesting having, because Hallie did this, Hallie flipped it on me too. In the first episode with her, she was like, what about your writing process? And I was like, ooh, you got me. so no I'm glad when people ask about it because it's good to talk about it and keep doing it um I have started it I had I started it um probably I don't know a while ago I was like why not try to write a book was basically kind of where it came from like I read all these books I love talking to authors like clearly I'm interested in it and it's like just like uh I feel like a lot of

authors. Like I wrote when I was a kid, but it was like, what are you going to do with writing, quote unquote, kind of was like the message. So it's like, you do it as a kid, but then you're like, I don't know. And then you're like, why not try it as an adult? So I went straight to like, I was like, I don't know how to write a book though. Like I'm someone who like benefits from structure. So I read story genius and that helped me a lot with understanding like characters and like their emotional journey. And then I kind of got started and wrote like 30,000 words of a story that I had an idea of. But then I also realized that I was just like making every single character super fleshed out.

So like not every scene was going to be necessary. And then I read Save the Cat and that like really helped me understand what did need to be in the book like plot wise. So now I've kind of gone back to revisiting what I had kind of started previously. And there's definitely stuff I want to keep for sure. But now it's kind of like focusing more on the plot beats with these characters that I've created. So it's a journey. And I have head trash about it all the time. As I feel like I hear, everyone's like, yeah, that's normal.

I'm like, yeah, but sometimes I'm like, did I just write anything that's good? or like it comes up where I'm like, why am I writing this story? Like, is anyone going to care about this story? So I'm just trying to do it so that I can be like, look, I like wrote enough to say that I wrote a book. And then 30,000 words is incredible, you know. Yeah. Go ahead. I was just going to.

Are you, are you having some fun with it? Are you finding some joy in it and like a kind of, you know. That's a good question. I do. And especially like when I'm. doing it and like the the gist of it is the idea is like um the main character when she was in college her best friend was killed and she believes that it she has she knows that it was by um this reality tv star that her friend got really close to when they were in college but because

she has like so much reality tv clout and money and stuff she never she didn't have definitive proof and she's like there's nothing i can do about it like no one's going to believe me. And so then, like, five years later, she's a journalist, and she gets asked to do a piece on the girl she knows killed her best friend. And all of a sudden, she's like, do I want to do this? Like, do I want to bring this back up? And she basically, she decides to do it. So what's fun for me is, like, it incorporates, like, I am very much into thrillers and I'm very much into, like, reality TV and celebrities fascinate me just even even society's reactions to celebrities fascinates me and like what that says about us as people even sometimes so like having like all these ideas that I've kind of

thought about with reality TV with celebrities like those kind of observations that part's like really fun for me to like fit into the structure of a book so that part's really fun and then sometimes I get done writing and I'm like, oh, it's terrible. And I'm like, no, you had fun. So it's mixed. And it sounds like a book that I would love to read and I would especially love to read it written by you because of what you said. Like you have that kind of cross section of expertise. But, you know, I think the self-doubt, I wonder how many amazing unfinished or unwritten books there are out there just because the self-doubt has been so crippling. And, you know, it's such a, it's a profession or a hobby or whatever it is,

a creative endeavor that is so opposite and that it's like completely alone and solitary unless you have a writing partner. And, but it demands, like, you need to be able to connect and write about it or to talk about it because otherwise you are in your head. All the time. That's a dangerous neighborhood for writers, you know? Like, you will tell yourself, this isn't good enough or it's, you know, whatever, you know, as you said, you know, the garbage in your head.

Yeah. Yeah. Head trash. Yes. But, you know, yeah, you should talk about it more because I think it really helps. It makes it real. So, yeah, I'm always glad if people do ask about it because I'm like, I need to act like it's real because it is. Yeah.

Yeah. treat yourself like a writer and, you know, have that, have, you know, dare to do that. I mean, I'll say for me, I, we're several books into a writing career and I still have imposter syndrome almost. So, yeah, yeah. But it also, I mean, it sounds like you're writing something you're passionate about and have an interest in and something that you can engage with. And that, I think, is the best way to go. I mean, we all kind of figure it out as we go anyway. Anyone who writes a book kind of figures it out as you go. So then it's, you have something that kind of keeps you coming back to the desk and something that is engaging you and that you can

really, you know, dive into that story and have fun with. That's, that'll, you know, that'll help the process, help you get your, your bearings, I think. Yeah. And a lot of other writers have said it before me and better than I will, but I think if you read as much as you do and love books and story, that is the best kind of guidance and education in writing. Yeah. Then going to even like an expensive MFA program. You know, if you can read a book and talk about it, about why it worked, why it didn't, why you loved it, then you understand how to write a book because you know how to read a book. Yeah. Yeah. So like you just keep going back to like, I know this. I know books. I know story. Yeah. And let us know what I started. It's ready. Yeah. I started a note on my phone that's like

things I've learning from books I've written is like loosely the type of. to love it. So it's like when I do read a book and I'm like, oh, that's how they were able to like hide that information till the end without it seeming like gimmicky or like a sudden reveal. Like it still fit the story, but that's how they did it. So I put like that everyone who can forgive me is dead. I don't know if you've read that one. But it came out a couple months ago. I feel like February or January. And when I finished it, I was like, okay, I need to like take my notes about like what structure-wise really made this work or like how I could use that in a different way. So I love that I can just keep reading. It's oh, it's so good. It has the dark

academia, but like it's in the past timeline so it's not all dark academia, but it was very good. I liked it a lot. I like that trope though. I'll take it. Yes. Yeah, me too. I mean, it's in mind. like there are flashbacks to college in my that well and that's the other genre or trope or whatever we want to call it i like hollywood or celebrity but like also dark academia i always love obviously i love cons we talked about that too so yeah i'm trying to stick with the things i like for sure great well right because you have to spend however much time it takes for you to write it so you better like the topic as much as you like the characters Yes. And we could read about and talk about con artists and cults. And there's also a conspiracy

theorist in our new book. And I'm like way into that rabbit hole. So you just find, it's like being able to stay in school, but only pick the subjects that you want to take. You know, oh, that's good. It's great. You know, just like, what do I want to spend the next year or a year and a half with? Yeah. That's a really cool perspective. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I'll keep writing. Well, that was the other thing. I was talking to someone when I posted about it. And he was like, every time I start a new book, I'm like, what am I doing? Can I do this? And I was telling him, I was like, I logically know that if I just make myself right, eventually there will be enough words that I can logically tell my brain, like, look, you did it. So I'm just trying to get the words and then eventually it'll keep feeling more and more real. Amazing. Yeah. Write your way into being a writer.

And that's what we'll do. You know? Yeah. But that's beautiful. And if you need any, you know, even if you just need to like, like a check-in. Yeah. Just to reach out. I mean, anytime.

I totally will. Yeah. Please do. I totally will. We can hound you. We can text you. Whatever works for you. Yeah.

We understand the need for accountability. Yeah. I know. It is so easy to like drop off of it. Yeah. Well, and there's too much TV and there's too many. And TikTok. Yeah, there is.

There really is. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on again. I always enjoy talking with both of you. It's a blast. Yeah. Yeah. Anytime. Yeah, really.

Thank you so much for having this on. Totally. Always. Anytime you're interested. And I'll put links in the show notes. so everyone can follow you as well. And then hopefully, I mean, hopefully you're on before then. But in spring of 2025, we'll have to talk about this book when it's out.

Definitely. This next one. And by then, we'll have figured out how to talk about this book. I think you guys did a pretty good job. Well, it's also like, you know, we don't want to spoil the ending. We don't want to give too much to the way. But, yeah, that's a whole process figuring out how we can effectively promote the book without ruining it for the readers before they purchased it.

That's why sometimes when I'm trying to talk about a book, I'm like, I'll be like looking at my other screen. I'm like, I just need to know if this is in the synopsis. I don't want to ruin it. Yes. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely come back on sooner if you want and we will easily away your book. And I will keep asking you about it.

That's good. We'll build in some accountability check-ins as well. Yes. Yeah. I'm down for it.