Bookwild - Vanessa Lillie's The Bone Thief: Stolen Bones, Stolen Land, and a Shady “Founders Society”

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

This week, I chat with Vanessa Lillie about her new thriller in her Syd Walker series, The Bone Thief! We dive into her inspiration for the story, the research she did to incorporate historic and contemporary elements, and the social structures that inspired the Founders Society.The Bone Thief SynopsisIn the hours before dawn at a local summer camp, Bureau of Indian Affairs archaeologist Syd Walker receives an alarming call: newly discovered skeletal remains have been stolen. Not only have bones gone missing, but a Native teen girl has disappeared near the camp, and law enforcement dismisses her family's fears.As Syd investigates both crimes, she's drawn into a world of privileged campers and their wealthy parents—most of them members of the Founders Society, an exclusive club whose members trace their lineage to the first colonists and claim ancestral rights to the land, despite fierce objections from the local tribal community. And it's not the first time something—or someone—has gone missing from the camp.The deeper Syd digs, the more she realizes these aren't isolated incidents. A pattern of disappearances stretches back generations, all leading to the Founders Society's doorstep. But exposing the truth means confronting not just the town's most powerful families, but also a legacy of violence that refuses to stay buried.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Vanessa Lily again. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that she is a favorite and that I really loved Blood Sisters, which is now a part of the Sid Walker series because the second in the series just came out, called the Bone Thief. In the hours before dawn at a local summer camp, Bureau at Vindian Affairs archaeologist Sid Walker received an alarming call. Newly discovered skeletal remains have been stolen. Not only have bones gone missing, but a native teen girl has disappeared near the camp, and law enforcement dismisses her family's fears. As Sid investigates both crimes, she's drawn into a world of privileged campers and their wealthy parents. Most of them members of the Founder Society, an exclusive club whose members trace their lineage to the first colonists, and claim ancestral rights to the land, despite fierce objections from

the local tribal community. And it's not the first time some thing or someone has gone missing from the camp. The deeper Sid digs, the more she realizes these aren't isolated incidents. A pattern of disappearances stretches back generations, all leading to the founder's society dorset. But exposing the truth means confronting not just the town's most powerful families, but also a legacy of violence that refuses to stay buried. If you've ever heard me talk about Vanessa, you know that I think she is one of the best people out there who can combine action and thriller pacing with like history and learning about history as well. I love Sid Walker. I just love everything about this series and I know that you're going to enjoy our conversation. Well, I am super

excited to be here with Vanessa Lilly today. You guys have probably heard me talk about blood sisters like I don't even know how many times in the last year. So I was so excited that there was going to be a sequel and yeah i'm just super excited to talk about it thanks so much it's so nice to be back kate yes yes yeah so you also um you also uh gave so many good horror recommendations that was another well it may not have just been that we were only talking about horror but we were talking about indigenous books with gear last year yes and everyone knows at this point now too I'm like burning through your list of them. So as well as loving your books, I love your recommendations too.

Oh, good. Yeah, I have a few new ones that are a little more book clubby. Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, I'll have to talk about those too at the end because I do always ask if you have recommendations. I always do. Yeah, right? I know. Some authors are like, I don't always read.

So you never know, but you have all the recommendations. I'm an indigenous book pusher. That's my, yes, you are. My cardio. That's what I do. I love that. So this was obviously your first series. Well, I guess there's your

which one of those is kind of, but... Of my standalones, yes. Yes, of your, where you're the solo author on it. So I guess my first question about it is, was there anything like totally different about writing, like a continuation than just writing standalones? Well, there's certainly, I mean, in some ways it's nice because you have characters already built in that you know pretty well because you spend a lot of time with them. Right.

And so that was fun because I kind of, I missed Sid as a character and I care about her. And I kind of wrote her like other books I've written, I've been ready to say goodbye to the main characters. Like they're, they were tough to write. But with Sid, I kind of wrote her for me anyway in a way that I'd want to revisit her story and see where she's out. So I was excited to be like, okay, what would Sid be up to? What, you know, adventures would she be getting into? What does she care about? And so in Blood Sisters, she's going to be a new mom soonish.

Like that's part of her journey. And she's trying to get in a place where she's ready for motherhood. And I kind of had this question of like, do I want her to have a like new baby in the next book? I mean, that is just such a big thing. And my debut Little Voices was all about new motherhood and my exploration of being a new mom. And that topic, like, I guess for me as a writer, I really get into a topic.

And I want to, like, research it and build it into the plot everywhere and just make sure, like, it's not just a little plot point. Like, it's got to be in the DNA of the story. And motherhood feels like, like a really big topic. So I actually was like, you know what? This is going to pick up just like a couple months after Blood Sisters where Cid's not a mom yet.

It's closer, right? So that's like another mindset. She's got some more room to grow and do a little healing in her relationship with her wife, Mal. But I think, you know, overall the point is more like I can focus on some other issues, not like being a new mom, which just I feel like would take up the whole narrative. Yeah. And it seems like motherhood takes over your name.

Yeah, it really does. And, you know, and I would love to explore it. Like, if there are more books in this series, you know, I don't know where I would pick up. If it would be like they have a three-year-old or if it would be days after, like, I'm not sure. But what mattered to me in the Bone Thief was that the Narragansett story was front and center. That was what was going to be the DNA, right? That was going to be throughout the book. That's where all of my creative energy and things.

thought was going to go was like the history of this tribe, the resiliency of this tribe, you know, sharing with readers the things that I find important or fascinating or shocking or terrifying about the history. And then the themes around in, you know, indigenity today, like this idea of why do we have bones on shelves and museums? Why are they in universities? Why was it okay for so long to dig up remains and use them in. disgusting and appropriate ways, even outside of the university or research system. You know, so I wrote a secret society because there's all these like weird ritual stuff that like aren't really, it's not that fictionalized.

Like I researched it and it's really not. It's pretty much what people have done and do today. Yeah. So, um, so that was sort of more what went into it. And so back to your question. That was a very long answer. But with the series, it's like, you know. you have those pieces that you're working with, right? I knew I had Sid and I knew she could be at any

point in time, but I also knew that what mattered to me was the heart of the story around the Narragansett tribe, this missing teenage girl, and then just thinking about colonialism, which is kind of a big topic, but I moved to a little big. It's a little big. And when you got super fun to think about, you know, we all have guilt. I mean, I do. You know, it's not like I'm telling this story because I'm not a part of But I live in New England. I live on stolen land. Like the first stolen land, as a matter of fact. So, yes, but I wanted to get into it, you know.

And that was sort of what the bone thief is for me is really thinking about my, you know, my contemporary current place, whereas Blood Sisters was more kind of where I'm from what I came from. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this one is literally more close to home where you live now. So, and obviously you really wanted to tackle, I mean, colonialism is what we're kind of saying here too. Was that like the initial idea spark?

Like were you like walking around your town? You're like, oh, I want to drill down into this with a book. Or did you do like extra research as well once you have the idea how that all kind of come together? Yeah, research is a huge part of my process. I have to dive really deep into a subject. And it's honestly where I get a lot of my plot too. Yeah. I really, when I get into an article, plot comes from that.

And so it's funny because it's almost like the same thing as like my journey with archaeology. So my main character is an archaeologist. And so initially when I kind of figured that out, I was like, oh, cool, you know, Indiana Jones. Like that's pretty interesting. And then as I got into it, I was like, oh, my God. the things that we've done in this, right, I like educated myself. And right. That's a very similar journey with colonialism.

Like I always knew, I mean, being Cherokee. I knew there were issues. But there's this sort of living in New England. I live in Providence, Rhode Island. You know, there's these colonial houses with the little year they were built, which, you know, it would be associated with the year the land was stolen. You know, there's, this is the heart of colonial America. if we don't buy it here, it doesn't get bought anywhere, right?

If the myth of colonialism isn't supported here, it cannot be, you know, broadcasts far and wide. So I was aware of the charm that we, you know, New England coastal charm coupled with the reality of how this charm was built and on and not just, I mean, indigenous stolen land, indigenous stolen labor. there's huge slavery and indentured servitude. Also, African people built the state enslaved. African people built the state, you know, Brown University. That Brown was a slave owner. So there's just a lot. But like we, I just had a conversation with a former professor at Brown while I was in Tulsa

for like a Cherokee thing. And we were just sort of chatting, because she used to live in Rhode Island. And we were just chatting about what it means to live in. a colonial place. And, you know, as an indigenous person, you know, as a person who's not from this land, you know, and just it's, and it's everywhere. And, you know, I'm interested in how this book will land here because it's not really a conversation people want to have. I mean, I mean, it's a thriller, right? It's a fun read, generally speaking. That's why I always say, like, you blend history lessons and actions together than anyone else. Thank you. That's a very high compliment. But I still

think if you're reading it in New England, you're kind of like, hmm, or anywhere. But I'm just, I'm really interested in, you know, and I've gotten feedback so far and actually it's been really great. But, um, and, you know, because I think people are searching for answers. I think people feel a natural disconnection to place because we don't have a natural connection to place. Um, so I think that's part of it. And so they are looking for those conversations. Um, I've been my impression so far. Yeah. A little bit with Blood Sisters too. Um, But it's definitely not an easy thing to look at, but a theme in these books is like, unheeled trauma creates, you know, more pain.

Yes. And looking at things that have been done, trying to, you know, find your place in that narrative. I think that's where some of the healing can begin and can reconnection can begin. That's the hope. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to kind of ask about what, because I'm sure you started. started writing this at least a year ago, if not longer. Oh, God, it's so much longer.

Like two, okay. I think it took me like, I started it. I mean, I had to have started it right after I sold Blood Sisters, generally speaking. Yeah. So, yeah, I took me two and a half years to write it. Yeah. And it feels like now it's even more timely. That's kind of like wild in a sad way.

I guess that's like kind of the wild part where I feel like we have both sides. We have some people who really do want to have more conversations about everything about how our country was built. And then we also have people who are like hardcore get this out of the curriculum. Don't talk about it. It was so long ago, get over it, like all of that stuff. So it's like it is very timely having it release now. I mean, we just had Indigenous people stay yesterday a few days ago. and also aka Christopher Columbus Day.

And Trump is all about posting these grand statements about Christopher Columbus, who never stepped foot in America's, thank you very much. And was so terrible in what he did that the king and queen of Spain who are not, are like inquisition people, right? Pulled him back. Like that's how bad this guy was. And his journals are terrifying. I've read parts of them.

They're awful. And so anyway, so it's just, it is. It's like either you want to perpetuate a completely false narrative. Mm-hmm. Right. Just for your own comfy, cozy, whatever. Don't think about it. Right.

You just don't even, you want the blinders and you want the wrap yourself in the red, white, and blue. Or, you know, something doesn't feel right. And you have questions about it. And you can explore that in a lot of different ways. but you know definitely that's what I was sort of searching is to just understand like what does this what does it mean to have a country that's founded on stolen genocide land built rights enslaved labor and the narrative largely hidden as well as you know the the the narrative like in 1970 women couldn't even have credit cards like there's just a lot of things we just sort of don't think

about. Yes. And it's like, don't these shape us? Don't these people who we are. And what does it mean? Like, how is this shaping my day to day? I don't know. So that's what the book is. Yeah. Yeah. Women, that women, that women not being able to get credit cards, not being able to get mortgages is just like, it's crazy. It was so recent. Yes. That's why I was like, oh, the divorce rates. I'm like, well, maybe the divorce rates are higher because you couldn't leave your spouse. because you couldn't even get a credit card. Like, maybe think that can't.

And in a lot of states, women weren't allowed to initiate the divorce. I don't know the exact date when that changed, but that was happening. And also just another story, like fun fact of our history, you know, indigenous people weren't allowed to practice religious practices until the late 70s. I think it was 79 that that Freedom Act was passed. And I just, I went to the Cherokee National Holiday, which is the kind of like our big powwow. And I went to a stomp dance on land that's owned by a family that's owned it for, you know, several hundred years.

And that's where they would have to have their private religious ceremonies for, you know, 100 plus years because it was illegal. And so it blows my mind. Like the fact that there was so much talking about like, we're a melting pot. We like bring all these cultures together. And then like you start doing a little bit of research and you're like, we were never very tolerant. Like that part's just not true. Like we wanted to be true. Right.

But think about, you know, Irish keep out. I mean, even white groups were marginalized that were outside of that colonial, Protestant, maybe a little Catholic, but especially where I am, Protestant monolith. Yeah, totally. Well, so you said your research kind of informs your plot. So what does that look like? I can't remember if you like plot before you start writing, writing, or do you kind of pants it based off of what you're learning? How do you approach it? Yeah, totally a combo. And I'm my natural, you know, there's the plotters and the pansters writing by the seat of your pants. My natural way of writing is by the seat of my pants. but it is such a hot mess that I can't let myself do that. So it's a lot of stopping what I'm doing and I plot backwards a lot. I constantly like looking at especially with a thriller.

I mean, you just, you have to hit those beats, man. Thrower writers are so smart. They know what to expect and reader expectations really matter a lot to me. And I'm just constantly thinking about the reader. And I really, you know, I'm in my. my zone, I'm researching, I'm history, I'm this, I'm that, but then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wait, like you have been in the same place talking about the same things for 10 pages. We got to cut all this back.

So, yeah, so I'm constantly recalibrating my natural way with what I know makes a better book. And, you know, with this story, there's some really big chunks of history, right? So there's the great small massacre, you know, which I'm talking to Rhode Island people who have barely heard of it. and it was the bloodiest battle in Rhode Island soil. I mean, I certainly never heard of it before I moved here. And it was when the colonists attacked the Narragansett tribe unprovoked and mostly killed women and children and elderly because they attacked their sort of, it's called a winter fort, but it's a fort in the sense of just like a safe village for them for the winter. And from there, those who weren't killed were then put into indentured servitude or just enslaved. some of them shipped off and then some escaped and there's a little bit more of that around

the queen queen's fort and some of the queen or this queen is not the right where it's really they're female sachems or the chiefs but they're often called queens but that but I knew that the great swamp was really important and kind of the opening of the bone thief sit as an archaeologist finds remains and they're quickly stolen. I don't think it's a spoiler because it's called the bone thief. I can't help them back to. I think you don't know they're stolen until page like 60 or something, which I kept cutting back. I'm like, they have to get stolen sooner because everyone's going to know if it's called the bone. But yeah, so those are the remains. And that was really important to me because in some ways, you know, that was the seminal moment.

To me, as a Cherokee person, the Grey Swamp Massacre is to the Narraganza as the Trail of Tears is to the Cherokee. And so I just really wanted to make sure that was like front and center in this narrative. And then it expands from there. It's, you know, you know, SIDS on the grounds of a wealthy kids camp that has ties to the secret society that has remains and artifacts. And then there's also a missing native girl, which in my series, I try to explore the missing and murder indigenous women piece. And so I kind of knew that. And then there's also a real kind of contemporary event that happened to the Narragansett tribe that I included in there that was an echo to me of what happened at Great Swamp. And so those were kind of big pieces that I knew would have, you know, big character implications.

I need to build characters around those research pieces that would inform what I was thinking about that history. So I wanted to make sure that the people of the secret society kind of represented different kinds of colonial mentality. And also it needed to be like appealing like a beautiful country club, you know, sit in, you know, an Oklahoma girl. It's the biggest house looking thing she's ever been in. and you know, you're at a swanky party and everyone looks good and the booze is flowing and there's, you know, shrimp cocktail. I don't know. I just wanted there to sort of be like you can imagine why people use these systems of protection. You know, it's not like she goes there and it's all scary right away, you know, and some of the tenants of what they're trying to do or even

align to what she believes. Right. Which is how they get you. So, you know, I, it was, fun to build all of that. I mean, it took forever and I'd rewrite it like three different times. But I did like building it because it was a lot of interesting questions around history and how you can communicate it in a thriller. Yes.

Yeah, and who gets to write history. I've been on like a nonfiction education kick a little bit lately. And so I was just learning about the this concept of epistemology, which is like

who decides what knowledge is, who decides, like what we should teach people. And then even like down to like the level of like the way a lot of our education system is also just kind of like a lot of memorization. Not necessarily like there's just so many different ways to approach learning. And it just what you're saying is kind of reminding me of again where we're still kind of broken and not learning some things that would be helpful to know. in my opinion. Absolutely. Did, obviously the founder society, their mentalities and their attitudes are, I mean, based on just attitudes and beliefs that are out there. But was there any specific society that you read about that made you think of like going in that direction? Yeah, I thought about

actually like collegiate secret societies a lot. Like Yale has skull and bones. And They have a ritual where they use the bones of Geronimo, who was a war. I don't know. I think maybe you would call him a war chief medicine man. Very sacred. But they have his skull and they have his femur. And the family has sued for it and they don't have it back. And they supposedly use it in rituals.

I was also told by a couple people like privately about some things in small liberal New England colleges that they've worked out. that of things that they had seen, the handling of human indigenous remains, really awful stories. Yeah. And then- Especially in the context of what it means for different people's, like, afterlife rituals, basically, too, is what's so terrible about it. Yeah. I mean, every tribe, I mean, nobody wants to be dug out of the ground, but certainly the Narragansa have beliefs around that. And as many tribes, as many tribes,

do as any of us do who put someone they we love on the ground and we cry over them and we pray over them and we imagine that they will return to the earth. So yes. So I looked at that and then, you know, I kind of thought about just generally country club culture. Yes. And like in this, because to me, colonialism now is obviously not religious. It is financial. It's economic. Yes, yeah. It might use religion to get what it wants. Yeah, they could. And it used to me a religious thing in some ways.

It was whatever, I don't know. But certainly what it is is, you know, controlling resources. Yeah, land, you know, back when these things were happening, land now, for sure. I mean, it's in the news all the time, you know, pipelines, taking of land, you know, damming or undamming land. I mean, it's, yeah. But so that, you know, is always a piece of it too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I figured.

Did you have to do, so we've talked about how she's an archaeologist. Was there any, like, other research you had to do for this one for, like, for job? I love for the first one. Yes, because I, there's a little archaeology in Blood Sisters, but there's a lot of other things going on. And in this one, I was like, I need. I need more archaeology. I want to really, like there's a, the opening, like, second or third chapter. I think she actually does a real dig.

So I went to a local, our archaeology lab here. I got a tour. I kind of asked. That's cool. Yeah, it was really cool. They were so kind. I think that in the back of that book, I really appreciated it. Yeah.

You know, they showed me some of the things that they do. They've worked with a lot of different tribes. I asked a million questions. It was really nice. I also, like, from a. narrative standpoint, I listened to several lectures by like archaeologists or even like I'm really interested in like museum curation is an area that's getting more progressive because obviously I mean, it's sort of like if you think about indigenous remains, the justification it takes to

keep it on a shelf would be pretty archaic, right? But that's in the mindset of so many museums and continues to be i mean when you when you go in a museum and if you think about like why is this object here right right some rich guy in 1852 buy a lot of it from someone he shouldn't have in egypt and brought it over you know why you have all of these belongings of countries here in random museum i mean if you go so and you can say oh it's for learning it's like yeah but is it and also what were the intent like what was the intention behind it? Who's telling the story of the object, right? I mean, is it the voice of someone from that museum or isn't the voice of the people from that culture in which it came from? So,

museums are really interesting to me because I don't like them as much as I used to for starters. I bet. Or even like isn't maybe the right word, but I feel very uncomfortable in them now. and part of it is that, but also part of it is knowing that the culture around it was one of othering and racism and human sexism. I mean, if you really kind of think about those themes while you're walking through a museum, you know, you might be surprised at what you are taking in. And that's not to say that there aren't wonderful, fascinating, brilliant people in the museum system. That's not at all I'm saying. But in terms of a structure and a place, it really is something that is having to go through a total revolution of thought. And so I did listen to there's, I think, at the Tate in London, they have like a new maybe Dosen or Cur.

I don't know. But he gave us an incredible lecture about ways in which they're trying to change their views. And it was just, it's interesting because it's a, it's a stodgy area of academia. And they're trying, like a lot of us, to reconcile the past with who we want to be. So I did do, I listened to some lectures around that. And because that informs Sid, right? My main character is a psychologist. And she's feeling really torn about working with this group, the secret society that in some ways is sort of doing what her profession demands.

And her old boss was part of it. And she's, you know, thinking about what her role is in this world that she does believe in. but in a lot of ways is contrary to her identity as an indigenous woman and a person trying to do their job to support tribes. That's that really complicated thing that I feel like I've just had more conversations or just heard more stories about is like it. You can't take race and history out of it. But if you took that context out of it, Sid just wants to be an archaeologist. And it's like it's a whole other layer of unfair in a lot of ways that she can't just, just want that job and like just do that job the way like maybe a white person could just do

that job, which you should still have some of those thoughts coming up, even if you weren't indigenous. But it's like, I've been thinking about that more, especially since we've had more firings and visas being taken from people basically over freedom of speech, like just ignoring that as a, something we want to uphold. So that's just something I'm thinking about lately where it's like it's got to be such a whole other level of frustrating that that people who essentially aren't white in the most broad sense of talking about it have to think about that. And it's just like they just can't have the dream job that they want just because they want the job.

Oh, that's so true. Yeah, I think Sid is grappling with a lot of that because she, like you said, she loves her job. But at the same time, the structure and the history of it is really contrary to her identity in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I thought was kind of interesting, especially since we're talking about history and also kind of like not just brushing past stuff and moving on really quickly is you do bring, and I can't remember her name now. It's been a couple months since I read it. But. you bring that one of the characters from the first book and her trauma is still unprocessed, which also kind of felt like it like fit the theme that like you weren't just going to like move on from that and be like, everything's good. So is that part kind of intentional or did you just kind of want her there as a character and it just happens to fit? Yeah, I, Luna is in the first book mysteriously and then she's really in at the end. Yeah. And I was so, excited to write her because she does carry trauma and a very particular trauma that, you know, she was in prison by this terrible man for decades. So that's based on real crimes. And I sort of thought,

like I wanted to give her a nice story or at least, sorry, my dog is barking. I wanted, I wanted to give her the opportunity to sort of grow and become. Yeah. I mean, it's like you can't rush the trauma. I mean, what she's gone through is, do you care if I get this ball? But yeah, the trauma Luna carries is significant. And so I didn't want there to be any easy answers. But I also really wanted her to be empowered, you know, in the sense of her finding a little bit of purpose, her having a skill set. Like she survived something terrible. There are skills that come out of that experience. And so thinking about that was exciting for me creatively. And, She's also a little bit of a foil to some of Sid's plans, which you need, I think, you know, she's, she is an ally, you know, but she pushes Sid's buttons a little bit.

She's even more hard charging than Sid to find out what she wants to find out, which I love to write that, those kinds of characters. And she has a daughter too, and Sid's going to be a mom. And so there's some of that there. And within Luna is, as you were sort of saying, all of this old baggage that Sid has old trauma that she's just now kind of processing. Games around forgiveness, forgiving yourself, forgiving others, you know, what can be forgiven and then finding something new to build on and, you know, like not an easy answer thing. Like I don't, I think you can never be better, whatever that is.

but definitely I wanted Luna to have a character arc where she started pretty low at the beginning, but by the end she's found more footing and she's found a little bit more of herself. Yeah. And, you know, to write characters, you know, we especially in thrillers, we write these characters who go through so much. Yes. So my inclination is usually to find as many like silver linings and as much joy as feels. authentic to the narrative. You don't want to like sugarcoat it.

But I also don't want to like torture them for no reason or make it so bleak, you know, that these people have been through a lot continue to always go through a lot. Like there needs to be joy. And that's actually an indigenous book thing too. It's like we can't just always be trauma. Like there has to be love and joy, right? And so remembering that too is important. Yeah.

That's what I happened. I read barrier. gays recently, which is like the title is even an allusion to the fact that even that commonly with like stories about gay people or lesbians or two spirit, however we want to even talk about it. And then as well like indigenous stories and black stories, sometimes it's so much trauma. And it's okay. It's obviously okay to have both coexist. And like I feel like you have both coexist in this story as well. But I was, I just saw. Tiffany D. Jackson came here for her

pub date a week ago. And she was talking about the same thing where she was like, I don't want to fall into this trap where everything I write has to have this deep message because like, what if I just want to write a fun book too? And it's like it's such a fair point. Like we can't just do it like trauma porn essentially and be like, oh, well, I cried about this fictional character. So I feel like a better person or whatever it is. Or like as an end of just writer, you have to always be writing

these like very depressing stories and you know and then publishers expect that right it's like you have to be really careful because you don't want them to be like oh is this an indigenous story because everyone's like happy and in love

you know yeah or like just has to be historical but yeah or just historical exactly it's like but it's a contemporary you know science yeah is that does that work so yeah we have to put out a mix of things Right. I was just talking about, again, about this book called Original Sins about education. And it, it hits on like the way we're the way students for a while have been taught about Native Americans or indigenous people has always been how they lived like past tense. And it's like they're still alive. Like, why are we saying this is how they lived? And we're not talking about how they're like still living. So.

yeah the whole contemporary element is still really important yes i mean i think i put it in the bone thief but i certainly had conversations with narragansett folks who in their classrooms were told that they don't exist that they're they were tribe that was there and they're gone oh my gosh i hate that yeah um but you do it is like actiony too as well which is also the other fun thing to to get to read so I think you kind of mentioned you get to a point where you're like if stuff isn't happening, like I want to get stuff happening. Is that kind of the main way that you focused on balancing? Because again, you do have some of these like history lessons,

but there's also like a driving force and it's very action force. Yeah. All of the history pieces, I really make them tied to a plot point. I mean, I don't just, they, you know, there's one scene where there's quite a bit of Narragansett kind of history. from the great swamp down. It's like in an archive. And I really wrestled with that chapter

because there was so much I wanted to share, but that's not the point of a thriller necessarily. And so I had to make sure that everything that was being shared was relevant to a character, was relevant to the plot, was like in service of the plot, which is like a fun challenge. And also it just keeps things moving, I think.

And there are ways to do it. So it's, you know, I will often overwrite those kinds of chapters and think, okay, there's no way all of us is going to stay. But I don't always know what needs to stay either. Right. Yeah. And so I'll kind of include everything that feels relevant or is interesting to me. There's a particular feeling I get when I'm writing of, oh, my God, I want to tell people about this. So when I find history or facts or experiences, you know, an article could be a recent article about, you know, maybe it was a tribe on the Cape.

And, you know, I'm missing a murder woman there. And I just kind of save that and think about that. Like there's, you know, anything that just feels, oh, this could be connected. I'll kind of put it in there. And then I'm drafting and drafting. And then there comes a moment where I'm like, oh, my God, this is so long. And there's so much in here. Yes.

And I have to start editing by reading it like a reader. I'm really thinking about what should shine. I mean, that's the thing. As a writer, you have to, you got to pick your. spots. And so if I'm including some history, it's got to be really important history. Because no one can remember a hundred facts about the Narragansett try. But if they can take away a couple big ones and maybe they research a little bit more, that's sort of the job I have to do. And then on top of that, it's, you know, thinking about ways in which a thriller lends itself

to sharing that information. And, you know, the fun of piecing together who did what and, you know, the kind of climax of the book is like, I'd seen that for a long time and kind of knew what I wanted to do with it. But then there were still things that popped up that sort of surprised me. So it's fun to just think about that, those twists and like what readers are going to enjoy reading. And I, yeah, I kind of have a thing around like the last 100, 150 pages. I just really want them to go fast. I don't know why. I just, I write it that way. I mean, I don't ever want to go slow, but my agent and I have had a conversation. She's like, God, your last hundred just really, like, sometimes I have to pump the brakes. Like, I cut some stuff from the bone thief because it was too much. Like I did too many

turns, too many twists. I was like, okay. But I really want the reader more than the history or anything to get this like thrilling experience. I just think that's like a promise a writer makes to a reader of a thriller, that they're going to get that kind of like page turning, like, what's going to happen next? You know, I really try to end each chapter on a little bit of a hook to keep going. I mean, I like that as a reader. I'm really kind of writing, like, how I like to read. I just really, as a reader, I mean, I always want the beginning to sing because I'm a pretty

impatient person, like, I want to get hooked pretty quick. Yeah. But then that last hundred, I want to just feel an exhilaration to get through the last page. I think that's really important. that feels yeah yeah i think you and i are pretty similar readers because i'm always like resonating when you talk about it that way and it i think some of it too is like once you are to the end like especially like you're saying with a thriller like you've spent time either like building up themes or meeting characters or whatever and you just you don't want the end to be slow like you don't want

it to feel drawn out and like it's like really slowly happening like obviously if there's some like really emotional parts to hit on. Like, that's important too. But I feel, I hate getting to like the last 20 percent and feeling like it's just going glacially, especially if it had been really fast up to that point. Yeah, I cannot handle that. It's the worst. So don't you like, I'm going to skim? That's it. You skim. Because when you're skimming, what it says is you're looking for a different experience, right? Yeah. And so I think that last hundred pages, like, I'm human too. I want it. Let's get this show on the road.

Like we have been here for 200 pages. Right. Let's go. Like we know these characters. We're pretty sure they're going to survive. We don't know. Yes. But like let's see what happens. Like let's throw everybody together. Like let's get moving.

Yeah. I always think about in Blood Sisters. My editor had a note for me. They've been through it was like right there's a tornado and Blood Sisters. So it was like right after the tornado, which was this huge. huge scene and there's like a million things happen and they go back to the house and I had them sit down and have soup because no one had eaten right in days probably and my editor was like

do they need to have soup here and I was like maybe I don't know I'm worried can I was like can she get a shower at least and yes yes but there's an epic car chase or yeah like they're driving home at there too, yeah. But they don't, but the reader doesn't need to watch them up soup. I was just worried for them. I was like, they're so worried. I know. Sometimes when people talk about that, like, oh, this author, like, the characters eat.

And every now and then I'm like, oh, yeah, there are not many books that I'm reading. Nobody uses the bathroom. It doesn't matter. It's just, no one has slept in seven days. No. Like, kids have just disappeared. Kids are gone. Oh, someone else is taking care of them.

That's right. It's funny. But you got to get to the plot. Nobody wants to see people taking naps and eating and having to watch Louie. Yeah. Totally. Yes. Was there favorite, like, character dynamic for you to write in this one?

Yeah. We talked about it. I loved writing Luna. She was sort of. Yeah. And Bloodsisters, my favorite character was really Raina. I mean, I love Sid. I mean, but she's a main character.

she takes a lot of energy. Side characters take less and it's like when they pop up, it creates an energy in the scene. Yeah. Like I, so I, Raina is this crazy cousin in the first book. And in The Bone Thief, you have Luna who has all of this trauma. I mean, she isn't this, but I thought a lot about Villanelle from killing Eve. Oh, yeah. Because I love that dynamic and there's this sort of like you just, you can't take your

off of her. And she, you don't know what she's capable of. And she lives by a code, but it's a code you don't understand. Yeah. And it makes you a little uncomfortable, but also intrigued. And so I sort of thought about that a little bit with Luna because, I mean, she's, you know, been in captivity for decades. And so her code is radically different. I mean, her code is survival.

And so, and then also the strangeness of the things in which she's good at. now, like what her capabilities are. And you don't always know what they are. And sit even as like, there's a couple things Luna does in the course of this kind of investigation that she's helping with and said, like, wow, okay, I didn't know you did that. I didn't know that happened. And so I just think that's a really interesting character to follow and like, like, you know, she's just got like a badassness about her that I like, right. So she was, she was a lot of fun. And then, you know, seeing her as a mom with your mother, Gracie. and what it's like to like be in a safe home how hard that was for her.

Yeah. Just sort of thinking about the dynamics was like her instead have some scenes. I really enjoyed writing because I like it's like when someone's mean to your main character, you see a lot of that main character. Including how the character reacts and and some of it sort of deserves them and some of it she doesn't. But it just to me as a writer, I really love those scenes. In fact, I cut several of them out because I'd written a couple.

I've written several kind of, not confrontation, but it's like their dynamic was so interesting to me. Yeah. Because I was trying to kind of figure out how they would be together. Yeah. You know, I ended up cutting a few of those out, but the best parts of their conversations for the most part made it in. Good. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. And what you were talking about earlier, like it's not like she's going to get better.

And it's like not the word you want to use for it either because when it's continued trauma, that's when you're getting like complex PTSD. And when I was working on that in therapy a while ago, my therapist would always remind me, she was like, you don't arrive at a destination. And you're like, okay, it's all good. I'm never going to think of it again. Nothing's ever going to like trigger some feelings in me. You just like, you mostly just get more and more tools.

So then when something happens, like your emotions don't completely like overwhelm you or paralyze you. at least that's been my experience with it. So I did, I did like her continued story, basically. Yeah. And that's, and I think that that's important when writing about trauma. I think we're just getting, we're knowing so much more about it. We're all in therapy.

We all get it more now. I mean, really, you know, we can talk about it in a way that's such much more sophisticated than it used to be. Yes. Oh, yeah. portrayed in books and TV and just like, oh, I'll take a pill and everything's fine. Like, oh, my God, I hate that so much. It's just, it's like, no, it's like, this is,

the thing you carry and we want to demonstrate that and show how you can still have a, you know, a full happy life, you know. Yes. And with that alongside you, maybe smaller and quieter. But it is there. So yeah, I and, you know, everybody in the book has trauma. So thinking about how it manifests in different ways is really interesting. Yeah, it is. Everyone's coping skills are different. So or what works the best for people is always different. So it is cool. Well, obviously, I loved it. I think that is pretty clear.

So everybody needs to go buy it. As of today, when you're listening, you can go buy it and read it. And you can, I'm sure you can DM either of us. You can definitely DM me if you read it and want to talk about it. Yeah, please. Yeah. But I have got lots of swag, too. Yeah.

So if you buy it, you can go to my website. I've got a little, I think it's. you know um like a tab there that you can just upload your receipt and i'll mail you an art print and a bookmark yeah even if it's after like i don't care just even if it's not a pre-order if you just order right just i mean i just just just come just buy it and and i want to send you stuff i love swag i love swag i've so many bookmarks and stickers i just think it's fun it's just i like just got into making bookmarks and stickers and i'm like this is going to get so out of hand yes it's out of control yeah same my my room is my office

My office is just full of that. So yes, please. And then, of course, if you can go to an event, I have a fun. I've also got a tab on my website with different events. I'll have office swag there too. Yes, all of it. Yeah, everyone needs to go do that. Go see if she's going to be near you.

And then you always have great book recommendations. That's what I ask about at the end is what you've been loving lately. Yes. So I am listening to the audiobook, and it's so good of To the Moon and Back by Elina Ramad. She was the reason for September. I just did an event with her, just met her and her beautiful family. And it's such a great concept. It's told over like three decades about a young Cherokee girl who wants to be the first Cherokee astronaut.

And she's obsessed with space camp. she's but it's and it's set in kind of taliqua and aliana just does this incredible job of like a coming of age story a Cherokee story you know a sister and mother and daughter's story so very like clubby but then there's this beautiful you know trajectory of what it takes to be an astronaut which is extraordinarily difficult yes um and so that's fascinating and she's a beautiful and she's a beautiful beautiful writer. She got her like MFA at Iowa or something. And so, you know, it's a literary vibe, but it's so, and it's so good.

And then the other book I just started as well, do you always, how many books are you ever reading it one time? Sometimes three if it's like audio and then like a fiction and nonfiction. I love that. Yeah. So I guess I've got like three or four going right now. Okay. So it's called hole in the sky.

by Daniel H. Wilson. It's, what are they calling it? A techno thriller, but it's Cherokee. And it's like a, it's like an alien first contact story, but with indigenous people. And

he wrote about Tulsa, where he's from originally, he's sort of known for a book called Robopocalypse, which is this big bestseller. He also did a Michael Crichton book, the Adromeda Complex, I think. He's written a lot books. But I also just did this event with him and it was really cool to meet him and hear about his

writing process. And I don't read a lot of sci-fi, so I'm really enjoying it. I mean, it's just, it's cool to read in different genres and he's a really good writer. So that's a, that's a fun one, too. I love that. I love sci-fi for the most part. I probably, I just typically don't get like, I don't know. I love Project Hail Mary, but that's, like, such a specific one, too, but I don't read much like heavy into space sci-fi so it's probably like definitely i read more like speculative fiction might be what it's called sometimes but i really i like sci-fi when it's kind of a genre blend with other stuff so i think you would like to add this one it's kind of got um i saw one comp to like the movie arrival oh yeah but indigenous yeah right and the cover is really cool i mean with

the title like hole in the sky you would expect it but yeah This one, and it just came out last, well, at the time where people are listening two weeks ago. This is amazing. I'm sure I'm going to be tagging you in more reviews now. Did I recommend last time Rebecca Nagel by the fires we carry for your non-micans selection? Okay. It's really incredible. So she is, she has a podcast and journalist and maybe she might also be like an academic,

but she wrote about her feelings. family on the trail of tears, her family coming to Oklahoma. But then it's like a lot of contemporary court stuff too around land in Oklahoma land and the big McGrit case out of the Supreme Court. And she's a great writer. It actually just came out in paperback. And then she reads the audio. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that's, you know, so you're going to do a book club, a sci-fi, and then a nonfiction. I'm here for all of it. My Libby holds are going to shoot up after this. Yeah, that's, and I'm like, I'll email you some other wrecks too because I have. Yeah.

But I'll keep it to three. Yes, I'm always intrigued. I just started, I mean, this is definitely one that's bleak, but the Buffalo Hunter Hunter came through on Libby for me. And I'm just like, this is, have you read it or did you? No. Okay. It is, it is quite the vampire story. That's what I'll say.

I don't think that's a spoiler. I'm going to do. I have the audio downloaded. I'm waiting to do audio. go. I'm really good. That's what I'm, that's what I just got it. And there are three different narrators. And I had seen so many reviews where they're like, the production is worth it. Like, and it is. Like, you just feel so immersed in the story. But it is very bleak and very dark. So go and prepared. Yes. That's kind of my, I've been waiting on it. I have to be in the right space.

Because it's, it's truth and fiction there. I mean, the narrative concede of a vampire, you know, hunting, Buffalo Hunters is so good, but the heart of it is around real crime against against people. So you've got to be ready. Yes. Yeah. I saw it. If you loved sinners, that was a lot of people were coming it to that as well. And I do just love a very creative use or a metaphorical use of vampirism to talk about history. It's pretty impressive. That's a good movie. Oh, my God. Yes, I love that movie. also for anyone else who's listening the good house by tanonareef do is was also comp to sinners so i very very very good it's like supernatural horror but also like very psychological horror it's her kind of like haunted house book

but another one that's really close to sinners um tvr situation i know i know that one it was a 22 hour audiobook, but I got it on Libby a couple weeks ago. And like, I think I still even listened to it in like five days because I was so, I was just hooked. She's so good. She's one of my name babes. Yeah. But yeah, where, so your website, is it Vanessa Lily. com? That's right. L-I-L-L-I-E, yes.com. I've got booktour stuff. And then I'm just always on Instagram. So I'm hitting up. I have a newsletter too. You can sign up for it on my website under contact but definitely come say hi on Instagram and yeah with some swag if you get the book sure and you better get the book so you better get the book so