Bookwild - Victor Methos' The Silent Watcher: A Guardian, A Survivor, A Detective and a Terrifying Serial Killer

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

This week, I talk with Victor Methos about his chilling new legal thriller The Silent Watcher.  We dive into how Batman inspired the story, how Victor's work as a lawyer has informed his writing, and how he writes multiple books a year.The Silent Watcher SynopsisFar from the neon glare of the Vegas strip, attorney Piper Danes walks away from a hotshot law firm to work as a guardian ad litem (GAL). Piper was once a vulnerable youth herself, and a GAL gave her hope when she needed it most. Now she’s committed to paying it forward.Her first case is unlike any fifteen-year-old Sophie Grace is the sole survivor of a gruesome family murder. Teaming up with the formidable Judge Hope Dawson and enigmatic Detective Lazarus Holloway, Piper delves into a world more sinister than she could have imagined.Their hunt for the truth leads to a serial killer known only as “The Creeper,” a predator who hides in the shadows. But as the team inches closer to unveiling the murderer, they find themselves in the crosshairs. Trapped in a web of lies, Piper will do anything to protect Sophie and stop the killer…before she becomes his next victim. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Piper is a guardian, guardian ad litem who defends like, they defend mostly children, but there's elderly and, you know, those that are mentally or physically disabled and can't defend themselves in court. Guardians will come in and defend them. I'm a big Batman fan. I love Batman. And so I read this great book on the psychology of Batman. And one of the things they were saying is that the reason Bruce Wayne can't have relationships is because Bruce Wayne is actually the mask. Batman is who he is. because Bruce Wayne died the moment he saw his parents get murdered.

And so that moment is the most important in the entire Batman arc is when his parents are dead and the police show up. And the first thing that actually happens is the cops are like, oh, the poor little billionaire orphan got his parents. And they're being really degrading. But Jim Gordon comes up and he puts his coat around Bruce Wayne and holds him and lets him cry and takes him back to the station. And so in that moment, Bruce Wayne could have went one or the other way.

He could have become the Joker or he could have become Batman. and Jim Gordon's kindness pushed him to becoming Batman. So I had that scene in my head, and I wanted to write something like that. And I thought a guardian would be perfect for that. Because a guardian really is, sometimes the guardian's the only person looking out for that kid. This week I got to talk with Victor Mathos about his newest thriller, The Silent Watcher, which is a pulse pounding legal thriller, for sure. I was burning through the pages on this one.

So if you do pick it up, be prepared to clear your schedule. But here's what it's about. Far from the neon glare of the Vegas strip, Attorney Piper Daines walks away from a hot shot law firm to work as a guardian ad litem. Piper was once a vulnerable youth herself, and a gal, GAL, gave her hope when she needed it most. Now she's committed to paying it forward.

Her first case is unlike any. 15-year-old Sophie Grace is the sole survivor of a gruesome family murder, teaming up with the formidable Judge Hope Dawson and enigmatic detective Lazarus Holloway, Piper delves into a world more sinister than she could have imagined. Their hunt for the truth leads to a serial killer known only as the creeper, a predator who hides in the shadows.

But as the team inches closer to unveiling the murder, they find themselves in the crosshairs. Trapped in a web of lies, Piper will do anything to protect Sophie and stop the killer before she becomes his next victim. There was so many cool themes that get explored, in this and then also just a truly creepy killer at the center of it. So if you are a fan of, I would even say like fatal intrusion that I read earlier this year, then this one is for you.

That being said, let's talk with Victor. So I am so excited to talk about the silent watcher, but I did want to get to know a little bit about you first before we dive into it. So what was the moment where you knew you wanted to write a book or that like he wanted to be an author? I was in fifth grade I think and I wrote my first short story. Nice. It was just a catharsis like writing is just so there's a few creative processes that really just pull your emotions out and just put them out into the world so they're not just clinging to you. It's almost like energy gets stuck in you and for me writing is probably the primary thing that moves that energy and gets it out of me. So I recognize that in fifth grade and I've been writing

pretty much the ever since. I mean, on and off a little bit, but yeah, in college, I used to write short stories and sell them to magazines when they were still a thing. When magazines still existed. And so, you know, you'd make 25 or 50 bucks a short story and I'd go buy Tom Rommel. So writing's always been there for me. Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. I love when people are like, I've really just known since I was a kid. I've known forever. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what I tell my kids is it's better to fail at something you love than to succeed at something you hate. I would way rather be a poor writer than like a billionaire like there's a lot of billionaires that I looked at their schedule and it's like they wake up at five and they don't go to bed till like 10 or 11 and they're

just doing stuff all day that they don't really want to do that's not worth it for me there's no amount of money that would make me do that right yeah I'm with you I love that um so I saw in your bio you were also a criminal and civil rights lawyer as well I've tried a lot of cases how does your work in that influence your books? Oh, a ton. I mean, you meet the most, I was a prosecutor first and then a defense attorney. I had this federal judge tell me once, and I think he's absolutely right. He's like, anybody that does criminal law, they should be a defense attorney for a couple years and a prosecutor for a couple years. So they get to see both sides, which I really got to do. I got to see what the cops go through and like the emotional toll and all that stuff.

But I also got to see just average citizens. Evil people. maybe I'm just an optimist, but evil people are pretty rare. Yeah. I could count on one hand the actual amount of evil people I read. Most of us are just impulsive and stupid. And so 99% of my clients were just impulsive and stupid. So it really helps influence my writing that way because I don't see everybody is evil. And I don't see all the cops is good either.

I've dealt with a ton of corrupt cops. As a civil rights lawyer, that's what I did as sue police officers. And man, some of the stuff is just like, I wouldn't trust you to be a dog catcher, much less have a gun walking around arresting people. So it's definitely colored. I've gotten to see both sides in a way that if you just work one side, you can't see. So that's really influenced my writing a ton. That's really, I love that answer because, yeah, I've just been feeling that way.

The more I've, like, grown a community on Bookstagram, I'm like, people don't suck. It's just some people. And so then sometimes we get so in our minds and we're like, oh, people. And it's like, no, like, most. Most people are pretty cool to talk to if you can talk to them about something they're interested in. And that whole idea that, like, there are very few who are actually evil. I just really love that. It was reminding me we saw the movie American fiction earlier this year.

Oh, yeah. Oh, I love that movie. Yeah. Oh, I was so good. Yeah. But there was some line in it about how, like, an author needs to, like, something about how how authors need to be like completely empathetic because they have to be able to make characters that do have flaws and they don't like hate the character for it or even like judge the character

for it. Yeah. It kind of sounds like that's kind of like how you got both perspectives on a lot of stuff. It's like you don't see everything is like black and white might help as a writer. Oh yeah. No. It's it's I mean yeah. I have there's clients. I remember a prosecutor. There's this guy, a really nice guy, but he's been a, he was a cop and then a prosecutor. And he was really like railing against my client, this lady about how dare she do this and how dare she do that. And I just told him her history when she was raped by her dad until she was 13 when she was too old.

And he threw out in the streets and she had a prostitute herself. And so I got her as a client at 21. And I was just like to the prosecutor like, how dare you, man? Go through the shit she went through. And then tell me how easy to judge somebody. And so it's really cool that I can kind of bring that to the table. I know what the prosecutor's thinking. He's just looking at the law and the facts, but he's not really seeing her as human.

So the fact that I was a prosecutor first, I could bring that out and like, well, here's why she did what she did. And so, yeah, it's been really cool that way. And just talking to like, man, when you do criminal law, you meet the most interesting people. I bet. I did a lot of celebrities and politicians and, you know, I get to get kind of the back room stuff. And that's been pretty cool, too. Yeah. Yeah.

I bet that's very, a very inspiring part of the job, maybe, storytelling wise. Sure, yeah. Yeah, I tell everybody that wants to be a lawyer, like going to criminal law, it's by far the funnest field. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it sounds more interesting than business mergers and whatever that version of law is that we think looks cool on TV. No, it is not for me.

Yeah. I did a few civil cases, and I would pick up the phone and they would literally be yelling on the other end. before it got to my ear. And I was like, yes, but like prosecutors and cops and defense attorneys, we all hang out and we go get beers and we eat lunch together and stuff. So it's more like, it's more like workers in the same factory, it kind of feels like. Yeah.

Whereas civil law, they're just like, oh man, they're such jerks. Oh, well, note to anyone who's thinking about going into law. Yeah, go into criminal law. You'll have fun. Yeah. So I've kind of a two-part question for the next one. One, I saw in your bio that you put out two books a year, which is impressive. So one, do you have a secret to doing that?

And then two, the other question is like, what is your writing process like? So I'm sure that kind of answers both of those questions together. Yeah, I typically write more than that. I have other pen names as well, one for science fiction and one for horror. I started in science fiction and horror and then kind of moved, evolved into mystery. So I still write those. But for me writing, I mean, I've done it so long. It's like anything else.

People are like I know I've known some chess grandmasters that could walk by a board and just say mate and seven, right? And I used to think like, wow, those guys are so much smarter than me. But now I just realized that's their thing that they're obsessed with. That's what they think about all day. So I do that with fiction and writing. So for me, it's just become my thing. I usually just now at this point, I just sit in the room and I listen to my characters talk and I write down what they say. So I don't do any outlining or anything like that.

If I know how a book's going to end, I won't write it. It'll be too boring for me. I have severe ADD. I don't know the backgrounds of my characters. Like in this book, I had no idea what the background were of Piper and Maswell. I just kind of came up with it as I wrote. And I really, one of the things that's influenced that is I used to not like abstract art, right?

I was like a six-year-old can do it. What's the, you know, Vinci and Raphael instead? but I read this book on abstract art because I wanted to know more about it. And it said in the first chapter, it completely changed my mind. It said there is no such thing as randomness when it comes to the mind. So the more random you try to be, the more you're actually expressing your unconscious. So Jackson Pollock isn't splattering paint. It's his unconscious forming something out of the paint that he thinks is random.

And so that influenced me a lot. And I apply that to writing as well. Yeah. That was so cool. It does intrigue me the more authors I talk to, how many people are like, I want to be just as surprised as the readers are. Like there really are people that just like it, enjoy it that way. Exactly. Like who wants to, I don't know, it just gets boring for me.

Then it really, like the danger of writing is having it become like work. Once it doesn't feel like play, when it feels like work, I'll get bored and I'll do something else. So it always has to feel like play to me. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. So knowing that that you don't totally know where you're headed with a book, was there a certain inspiration for this one? Yeah, I usually see a scene in my head, just like one scene, and then I kind of write what came before and what came after. And it's usually the scene that sticks with me.

So the scene in this one is Piper is a guardian, guardian ad litem who defends like, they defend mostly children, but there's elderly and, you know, those that are mentally or physically disabled and can't defend themselves in court. guardians will come in and defend them. So I'm a big Batman fan. I love Batman. And so I read this great book on the psychology of Batman. And one of the things they were saying is that the reason Batman can't have, Bruce Wayne can't have relationships is because Bruce Wayne is actually the mask. Batman is who he is. Because Bruce Wayne died the moment he saw his parents get murdered. And so that moment is the most important in the entire Batman arc is when his parents are dead in the police show up. And the first thing that actually happens is the cops are like, oh, the poor little billionaire orphan got his parents. And there's being really great. But Jim Gordon comes up and he puts

his coat around Bruce Wayne and holds him and lets him cry and takes him back to the station. And so in that moment, Bruce Wayne could have went one or the other way. He could have become the Joker or he could have become Batman. And Jim Gordon's kindness pushed him to becoming Batman. So I had that scene in my head and I wanted to write something like that. And I thought a guardian would be perfect for that because a guardian really is sometimes the guardian is the only person looking out for that kid because their parents have lost their mind and don't care about the kid anymore because most guardian cases are divorces and Kate you would not believe what people are willing to do to their kids in a nasty divorce it's horrible yeah and so these yeah and it's typically

to like get back at the spouse like oh yeah I mean they'll do I mean they'll do anything it's it's so nobody hates each other like two people that were formally in love like And they just know what one's push, too. Like, I had a client, we had a divorce. And the guy's like, I don't care about anything else. Get me the cat and the Xbox. Because those are the two things she loves the most. Oh, my God.

You really want to pay my hourly fee to get an Xbox. For those two days. For you not to buy a new Xbox. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, people lose their minds. And so these guardians, they have a really important role of, like, I have to do what's in the kid's best interest.

Like, I represent only this kid. and nobody else. So that always fascinated me. So I had that scene from Batman in my head, and I just kind of wrote the novel around that. That is so cool. Do you remember what the book was called? Because I just made a note that there is a book on the psychology of Batman.

I think it's literally called the psychology of Batman. Okay. I'm going to be looking it up because that I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And it is cool to think about those really pivotal moments in your life, where it's like you were saying, he he could have just gone into being consumed by anger, more of the Joker route, or he could go

the Batman route that he goes. And you do feel that so much with Piper, even in the synopsis, that like she even had a traumatic experience herself and that someone coming alongside her made all the difference. And so then she wants to be, that part of her story was reminding me of that quote that's like be be the person you needed when you were a kid basically. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I, I just love that. I love I love I love the way she wants to stand up for Sophie even even when Lazarus is kind of pushing her to do some stuff. But yeah, that's getting spoiler territory. Yeah, I've always wanted because guardians, one of the things guardian and anybody that works with children in the justice system, I mean, one of the things they face a lot of is they feel like they don't make much

of a difference because you can help a kid all you want and you can start healing their trauma. And then the second the court puts them back with their abusive parents, they reverse everything. And so six months later, the kid's back to you for a worse crime. And so I wanted someone that like that won't affect them. That doesn't slow down their passion for the job just because they don't feel like they're making progress. And I think Piper, I think Piper fit the bill on that. Yeah. I think that you have a moment like that when someone is even saying to her like, isn't it something along the lines of like, isn't it depressing doing this?

She's kind of like, no, like, I'm going to keep showing up for these kids. Like, that's enough for her is just to be someone who's showing up for them. I really love that. Yeah, she's a way better person than I am. Well, same. Oh, man. That was going to be my first question. I really did, like, learning about the guardian ad litem, just in general that there are people out there helping, like,

you're saying, whether it's kids or elderly who really just kind of can't advocate for themselves the best. So it was cool learning about that and it does sound like that was like really the core part of the inspo for the book too. Yeah, yeah, it was. I did go full CSI on it though, Kate. Like, you know, forensic work is like some of the most boring work you will ever see, but you watch CSI and it's like an action movie. So I didn't post in a little of that because a lot of the Guardians work is paperwork and just sitting in court like this, twiddling your thumbs. So I added a lot of excitement. So none of your listeners or anybody watching this, don't get mad at me if you become a guardian.

And then they're like, what? Victor lied to me. Where's all the excitement in the car chases? Right. Oh, well, I like the excitement in the car chases too. But another interesting thing that, or I thought it was interesting to have it included in this book, is that, like, Lazarus engages in a lot of, like, spiritual conversations with people about religion and, like, what all of that means and he's very like uh and i don't know if we know that he's atheist necessarily

he's a little agnostic or like has his intellectual reasons that some of it doesn't make sense for him so was that something you always knew was going to be a part of his personality or did was that just like you said you were just writing no i was just writing i don't journal um i don't know if there's this there's a show where it was a writer and his wife was trying to to convince him to go to therapy and he's like, I'm not giving that shit away for free. Oh, that's amazing. And so I don't journal. So everything I'm going through, everything I'm thinking about comes out in my books.

And so when I go back and look at some of my books, I'm like, oh, I remember what this is from. And I remember what this is from. And like, we're talking about the unconscious. It's really weird. I went back in this one book. I wrote eight or nine years ago and I was just kind of flipping through it. And there came this conversation between the protagonist and his father. And it was almost word for word, a conversation I had with my dad.

before he passed. And I didn't, like, it went through editing and months of, you know, and I never picked up on it. And just 10 years later, I'm like, oh, I had that conversation. And so that's how I use fiction. And so religion's always been a big thing for me. I started studying philosophy really young, like way young. And so it's always kind of stuck with me. I got my degree.

I was actually going to, I was getting my PhD in philosophy when I dropped out and went to law school because I saw the writing on the wall. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to starve to death. Yes, right. Unfortunately, I was saying for my philosophical talk. I'm sorry, I cut you off. Was that? No, I was just saying, like, you're like, realizing, like, not tons of people are going to pay me for my understanding of philosophy.

Nobody's paying me to understand Nietzsche. Right. Which kind of sucks, because, like, a lot of those grad students, they're some of the most brilliant people I ever met. And I actually read a study that was talking about IQ on college campuses. And they found that the two highest IQ undergraduate majors are found in mathematics, obviously, and philosophy like really brilliant kid yeah but like there's no like you can't go into it i saw a lot of them go into business or other stuff because they're just like i'm not going to be able to make it which sucks to you're missing out on like who knows what they could discover if they just devoted

their lives to thought instead you know right yeah yeah i saw that a lot in science too a lot of my friends who were graduating with physics degrees and chemistry degrees they started like working at banks and stuff like that and doing algorithms they didn't pursue science anymore which is really a shame It is. It's hard. It's like a whole bigger conversation, but it is hard with some of the, like, I don't know, like less capitalistic jobs, I guess is like one way to put it. Like we, that we don't, there's not like a solution to like getting people to stay in that field. Because like they have to figure out how to make money too. Yeah, I know. And it pays so little. Like my brother's a teacher. He makes nothing, you know, like it's so weird. He's responsible. And he's a special ed teacher too. Like he's responsible. I was 40 kids. And just when he tells me the stuff, the benefits and all of that, I just really, because in Afghanistan, where I'm from, you know, here, you hear like, oh, become a doctor

or a lawyer. But over there, it's like become a teacher because the teacher is held as like the highest standard. Unfortunately, there's nothing left up Afghanistan now. But that was a cool thing we used to have. Right. Yeah. It was, it was going back to the religion part. It was fascinating for me because I don't know if you saw the movie Heretic that's in theaters right now.

But, oh, it is fantastic. And my little tagline would be that like it's religious, it's religious horror, but it's not what you think of when you think of religious horror. It is all ideology. And like, it's very academic. I saw someone else say it's like a daringly academic horror, which I thought like really summed it up well. too, but it's actually more about the horror of like how personal it is to decide what we think we believe and the whole like how difficult it is to really decide. And then also showing how many different religions have like the exact same savior story,

like showing how like people have been interpreting things really similar for a really long time was like a big part of the movie. I was obsessed with it. I still want to do like a long form review of it. I go to the movies typically. I like during the, like an afternoon showing when no one's there so I can take notes on my phone. Yeah.

Oh, nice. Yeah. So I just have all these notes because it just did it so well. But then I was reading your book as well. And so when Lazarus was talking with, I think the priest, where he was even saying like people who think that their moral have still kind of adopted the morality of whatever religion is still like closer to their culture. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. the whole Viking example. I was like, this is great. Oh, sure. No, I remember I was a waiter. It was in college. I was a waiter at this Mayan restaurant. They called it the Mayan and they had like cliff divers and stuff. Really interesting stuff. But anyway, across the street was this huge amphitheater where they would hold like various conferences, like business conferences. And so one day they had like the Atheists of America. So I'm like, oh, I got to see this. And I went in. So there was pamphlets and literature like Christopher Hitchens books up front. And then I went in and a band was playing and then somebody got up and read from uh richard dockens book and i was like holy

shit this is church and none of them realize it none of them realize they're doing the exact same thing so it reminds me of something carl young said he said if religion was erased today it would start over exactly the same way tomorrow because there's something in us that wants something more that wants to believe in something more it's something i always struggle with you know it's hard to it's hard to be spiritual. It's definitely hard to be religious. There's too much of like and then he went on to the mountain and the golden plates be kept. You know, it's like, oh, come on. You know, just tell me how to live. I just want to know how to be a good person and how to live. And so it's hard because you get so much bureaucracy with it. Right. Yeah, that's, that's the other big part of it for me is the

organized religion has just turned into like all kinds of different things. But I've always thought that was interesting too with atheists because they're actually saying they're sure of something. is like the other funny part. That's where like agnostic, I guess, is what would resonate with me more because like, and it's probably why I liked Heretic so much is like,

I think it'll be like a lifelong journey of wondering what I think is real. And I don't know that my brain and like my personality is ever going to feel like I know for sure, which I guess is the crux of what faith is, which is also what the movie touches on. But yeah, yeah, it's fascinating to. That's cool.

I will check that out. I love horror. I'm more of like, 70s and 80s horror like grind house stuff just because I love artists that are willing to just go out on a limb and just be like yeah most of those guys couldn't get any funding they're like screw it I'll sell my car and I'll make it and then they just make this passion project like Texas chainsaw massacre Halloween all these masterpieces I think there's something magical about an artist not having any money not having any backing but loving it so much they're like I'm going to make it I don't care

yeah a lot of my favorite movies are that that's really cool that you said that too because I had the writer, director of a movie called Audity that came out here this year. I had him on. It is so good. Really? It's like horror, thriller, like murder mystery, paranormal. Like the main character is a blind woman who, like, when she touches things, like, it can, like, feel the, like, people associated with it.

Yeah. And has, like, an oddity shop and everything. And it's her trying to figure out her sister's brutally murdered. And she's kind of trying to figure out what happened there. But when I talked to him, it was kind of the same. We had a similar discussion because the setting is this like really creepy, like house. That's like also kind of like a square house with a huge courtyard in the middle as well. But it's this really cool location.

And I was talking to him about it. And he was like, well, I had the idea for it. And my friends like own this. area. And so he's made two movies there just because that's what was available. And he just like wanted to tell the story. So we were talking too about how sometimes like sometimes limitations end up like helping you be more creative because you can't just like do whatever you want. And I was like that is a really interesting concept. I think so. Actually, I remember when Twitter was only 140 characters. I thought it was way more witty and clever. And now the launch and stuff,

it's just like, yeah, it's lost some, some of its magic. Yeah, that's a really good point. You probably didn't do it on purpose, but I did. So his name's Lazarus and he brings up a lot of biblical issues. Do you think those were connected or is that just like you met him as a character? Yeah, I wanted him to have a religious name. I've always been fascinated with people that grow up among fanatics but decide to leave. Like that has got to be one of the most painful things you can imagine because like leaving a community that's everything to you.

I mean, you leave your friends, your family. they tell you you're going to hell so yeah i wanted a lot of religious he's he's having a battle it's a war inside of it yeah and religion's a big part of it so i definitely wanted a name for that yeah yeah i loved it i figured it had something related to it also total sidebar with him he's like always drinking caffeinated drinks and whatever and my husband has ADHD and is like all the caffeine all day long um keeping him going and there there's a there's a there's a there's apart at the beginning of it where like she's a piper's like looking at what he's drinking at night and she's like there's so much caffeine in this uh how do you sleep and he just answers no and then it

says like and then he hits his vape again and i've died because my husband and i've had that same conversation so many times i like sent it to him and he was like well here's my vape right here yeah well i don't sleep i never have i don't know what it is if i get four hours it's like a good night for me. Usually it's related to ADHD. I don't know. Two and a half, three hours is max for me. But sleep paralysis, because I gave Lazarus sleep paralysis. Yeah. The scary, so like I told you, I'm really into horror, Kate. And I think probably the scariest horror movie I've ever seen is a documentary called The Nightmare. Have you ever seen it? So it's about sleep paralysis. But one of the things that people found is that a lot of, not everybody, but a lot of people that

watched it had sleep paralysis that night. And so that's why they're like, it's so terrifying because you don't know if you're one of those people or not. And I've had sleep paralysis. It is the scariest thing I think I've ever experienced because you're awake and everything, like all your senses are attuned. You know what's going on, but you're in a nightmare that you can't get out of and you realize it. And so like I just, my sleep paralysis I had that one time was I saw someone beating me to death with a bat. And like I heard the wind. I felt it against my head. It was just So I've always wanted a character that has sleep paralysis. Yeah.

And if I had that every night, I would be duzzling caffeine at two in the morning, too. I wouldn't want to sleep either. I know. My husband has that too. His, I don't know if he ever sees, because I've seen like the, not the jokes, but like memes about like the sleep paralysis demon or whatever. Yeah. I don't know if he sees anything, but I know like every now and then he just says like he's

awake and he like wants to move, but like can't move at all. Right. Yeah. That sounds like a mild form of it. I did read a, as research for the book, I did read a lot of interviews with people that have it. One of the most interesting things to me was a married couple who has the same hallucinations. They'll have a hallucination of a cat with red eyes on their bed. And they'll wake up and get juicy and they'll be like, yeah.

And so it's a really, I think there's a lot of facets of the mind. We just have no understanding of whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the most interesting mystery to me, the mind. It's way more interesting than anything else with science. Yeah, I think that's why I love psychological thrillers so much because sometimes it kind of feels like it's acknowledging that part that like, we don't always totally know what's going on, even in our own minds.

Yeah, or like never. Or like people, their incentives or why they believe what they believe. Yeah. They'll have no idea. They may have one answer and they'd be like, okay, but why do you believe that? And they're like, blah, you know. Right. Right.

Yeah. And then like when it's something that feels like part of your identity, that's when people, people get like crazy defensive about it. Oh, yeah. Like with the election recently, I mean, it's pretty nuts. Friends on both sides of the aisle that I have are just like, I've never seen anything like it. I've never seen the depression and I've never seen the elation.

It's going to be boring. Like that the most ironic outcome to anything is always the most likely. So having a boring four years is probably the most ironic outcome. I think that's probably what's going to happen. That's what I am telling myself. I'm just telling myself, like, nothing changes quickly in government on either side of the extremes. No. Our founding fathers designed it.

Honestly, Kate, the Constitution, I mean, sometimes I'll catch myself. This is such a nerdy thing to say. It reminds me of Lisa and the Simpsons. Remember she's having a, she's having a dream and it's George Washington. She's like, don't leave George Washington and Bart's walking by, brushing his teeth. He's like, don't leave George Washington. Even your dreams are nerdy and boring. Every once more, I'll just.

just think about some aspect of the Constitution and just it'll blow my mind. Like, I'll just be like, I can't be human beings thought of this. It's 15 pages. It's nothing, but it's like the, it's really the pinnacle of the human mind. And so our final fathers set up the Constitution in the country specifically to prevent a dictator from ever taking power because during the constitutional convention, John Adams, he was having correspondence with his wife. And Abigail, almost as a post script, wrote to him and said, just remember that all men would be tyrants if they could. And John said that this stuck with him and just like it haunted him during the Constitution. So that's where really what our system is set up to prevent is all men would

be talents if they could. So I'm not scared of America falling into tyranny. I'm more scared of America abandoning the intellect like books like when TikTok came out, book reading dropped to something like 19%. And something like it was some it was some crazy number. I don't remember the specific, but it was like 54% of Americans said they don't read even one book a year. And so I'm I'm more scared of that. I'm more scared of people devaluing the intellect and becoming autonomy. Yeah. I'm going to have to agree with you. I like that. I like that take. I like that approach. And it's we I did an episode a little while ago about empathy as well because like there's been so many studies that even show reading fiction like brought into your empathy because you're having like experiences through a character that like you may never have in your lifetime or like you might learn something. about a culture that like you don't have a friend in that culture and so you don't know about that.

So I let, yeah, I'm with you. I also. Yeah. I'm sure TikTok took away from my book reading time, but somehow I still managed to fit them in. Is you good? I've always been embarrassed of social media like posting and like, hey, everybody, look at me. So I've never really gotten into it very much. But yeah, yeah, I can see the value.

I do like on, on Twitter, which is, which is called X now, there's a lot of scholars I follow. And a lot of times when I reach out to them, they reach back. And so I do like that aspect of it. Yeah. Yeah. It can be useful. That's for sure. I didn't really even post that much.

I would be what you probably called a lurker on social media for a while on like my personal account. And then it was just finding bookstagram and actually book talk. So that's like kind of the nice thing. A lot of my TikTok is book talk as well. So it's still like finding. I've heard that. I've heard TikTok's like a real like force in.

the book world now. It is. It really is. It's kind of impressive. I'm trying to think there was something a few months ago, like someone trying to ban more books. And it is, it is, it is cool seeing the way that I think TikTok is more positive overall because I saw someone, um, KJ Miller on TikTok for anyone who likes to hear, uh, kind of like social commentary thoughts. She was talking about how she started enjoying TikTok more. And she feels like it's because this, that algorithm is so geared towards what you like the things that like you enjoy where like so many of her Instagram and YouTube comments are about hate. And so kind of just the idea that this was, and I don't know if that's true, but it fits because it's something I'd been noticing more. Like the TikTok comment section definitely seemed

a lot nicer than what I was seeing on Instagram, even in my own algorithm. So yeah, interesting. It's definitely interesting. Yeah. Instagram's like, it's like many only fans now. I just get like what are clearly AI created women. Yes. And their bias says not AI and you're like, yeah, not AI.

Yeah, not AI. People don't put that in their bio. Yeah, only an AI would say not AI. Yeah, totally. Um, well, the other, another big part of what the book explores is like Sophie's trauma. And everything that that could. mean and you've kind of talked about with that Batman scene being so inspirational for it. I definitely am seeing it now more in the kind of ways that you talk about Sophie in the book

and how there's even a part that discusses like and if she learns to dissociate for so long, it'll lead to, it could lead to addictive behaviors. Just like definitely really explores PTSD and the trauma around her. Is that something you researched or is that just kind of like from what you were involves in with your work as an lawyer. No, it's me. I have trauma. Who gets out of this without trauma? I want to meet that person. I'm sure there's somebody. There's got to be somebody that like grows into adulthood normally, but I haven't met anybody yet. So we all have trauma. I've been in trauma therapy now for about 11 years and it's been. It's the best investment I've ever made.

Just investing in yourself and getting through that. And like it's the weirdest stuff because you go back. And it's not like all these new memories flooded me. I remember all the stuff, but like, you reevaluate them with like a healed mind and you realize like, hey, that's pretty screwed up what happened to me. And then you confront people and then you cut out the toxic people. And it's just been it's been such an important journey for me that I try to capture that in all my books because nobody ever talks about that, especially men. I used to be a boxer. You know what I mean? Did you imagine people like, nobody talks about their feelings. You know, there'd be dudes crying in the in the locker room and like, wrong and they wouldn't talk about it. The first person I ever heard talk about it was Mike Tyson.

And somebody said, why are you crying? Because he was crying in the locker room. And he said, because I don't like the person I have to become to fight. That's trauma. That is trauma. And we weren't allowed to talk about it then. So I really love this culture opening up and allowing men to cry and feel trauma and feel empathy. I think it's a really, something's shifted in the culture that I think is really positive. Yeah. That makes sense because, or it makes sense why the basically I did therapy for a really long time as well for complex PTSD. So a lot of the scenes, I was like, oh, I remember like having these conversations or like, like you're saying, like sometimes it's not that you didn't have the memory before. It's just that through a

different experience you have with a person or just something going different, all of a sudden you have new perspective. Yeah. On some of the things that happened. And it can, it can change huge things like just like that and the thing is nobody from your past that you have to cut out understands why you know they take it as like a personal attack i don't understand like i'm on a journey healing myself and i can't have you as part of that i'm not going to be mean to you but i just can't have you as part of that and so it's that's that's that's been the hardest part for me is cutting out people that i feel like truly do love me but i just can't be around them anymore uh yeah i'm really glad you say that because that's that's the hardest thing for me too there are people i'm no

contact with as well. And every now and then I'll have like the conversation with myself where I'm like kind of talking to my inner child, kind of talking to my adult self like both. But it's like do I, sometimes it's like I know that I am in a place where this person couldn't actively like hurt me or like gaslighting was the big thing. There was a lot of gas lighting and washing growing up. And so sometimes I'm like, well, I know as an adult they couldn't do that to me again if I engaged in a relationship with them. But then, like, I think of the things that I'm still going to have to put up with. And it's like, I don't, but I don't want to spend my time that way, even though they think that they love me by crossing boundaries over and over and over again. So it's cool to hear you say that.

Because same thing. Every now and then you, like, I think especially to you because like, if you've been hurt, you probably are also sometimes thinking more about like, I'm not just turning around and hurting people to hurt them back, right? Yeah. And, but sometimes like, you're saying. It's just like, I only have so much time in my life and like, I just don't want this in my life. Right, right. Yeah. The strongest people I've ever met are the ones that have been hurt really bad, but they don't take that hurt out on other people. I think that's the most important life skill to teach. Yeah, which is cool because that's also circularly kind of goes back to what Piper's wanting to do with her career in the book. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I 100% believe in karma. I don't know if it's called karma. I don't know if it's scientific or something else. But, um, Like there was one thing I read that I, this is one of my favorite stories, but there was a guy, this was here in Utah. There was a guy who saw, she was a five year, she was five or six and she fell into this river near Sugarhouse Park, which is his park downtown, but she fell in and this guy. He was 25 or 26. He dove in, he saw her, pulled her out, saved her life, right? So like, fast forward, I think it was 24 years later. The guy's in his 50s. He's walking across the street in Boston. He's not paying attention. He's on his phone. And this car is just.

speeding through the slide. He doesn't see the car. Somebody grabs his jacket and pulls him back just as the car is passing through. It was the five-year-old girl he had saved 24 years before. Yeah. Yeah. That is so cool. In Boston. So like, yeah, I really believe there's some, there's something universal that just plainness and empathy bring about. So whether you may not get the reward right away. Maybe it comes 24 years later. So I really do believe in karma. I try to write my characters that way, too. My villains usually get what they deserve. Yes, yeah, I would agree with that. I don't know if I could, I probably can't even really talk about your villain.

That's what, when I was writing my questions, I was like, a lot of it, I think, would be too much of a spoiler. But I, but the fact that he ended up with the moniker, the creeper, the creeper, perfect, perfect, very creepy villain. Oh, good. Good. Good. I'm glad. I tried. I tried. Yeah. The villains are the fun of the right for me. I don't know. The heroes are fine. You got to have heroes, but the villains are fun. There's something fun about not having any limits or any limitations at all.

Right. Yeah. Just they're kind of acting however they want to in most cases. Yeah. But the thing is that I've noticed with my villains and villains in general is they don't change. And that seems to be the real difference between the hero and the villain is the hero can change in a story. The villain usually doesn't. I, yeah, pull that quote.

That's, I'm, yeah, I love that. Well, obviously I loved the book. I'm really glad we got to talk about it. And now I have a book about Batman that I need to read. Our dogs, I have a dog named Bruce Wayne and a dog named Harley Quinn. So when you were saying that, Harley's tight. You might be able to see her. She's behind me sleeping right now.

But when you were saying Bruce Wayne, I was like, is Bruce about to appear? He didn't have this time. But where can people follow you to say it today? Sounds like you don't love social media. I'm on it. Like Instagram, Facebook, X. Yeah. So I'm forced to be on all the stuff because you have to kind of, I thought about this with my daughter.

I was not going to, she's 14 now. I wasn't going to give her social media, but she's like literally all my friends are on there. How am I going to interact with them? And so I had to give it to her. So you have to be where everybody is. So I am on social media. But yeah, I'd rather meet people in person. So just come up and say hi to see me.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I'll put links to all of that in the show notes for everyone. Otherwise, thanks so much for talking with me. Cool. Thank you, Kate. It was fun.