Bookwild - Vietnam Vets, Addiction and Deserved Justice: Karen E Osborne's Justice for Emerson

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

This week, I talk with return guest Karen E. Osborne about her newest mystery Justice for Emerson! Listen to hear about: How Karen approached a dual-timeline mystery that blends a present-day murder investigation with the long emotional aftermath of the Vietnam War, addiction, race, and trauma.   How Karen’s research process is deeply people-centered—drawing from her husband’s Vietnam experiences, veterans, recovering addicts, and sensitivity readers to create emotionally authentic characters without judgment.   How she crafted her protagonist: a widowed nonprofit CEO balancing grief, self-doubt, romance, family tension, and danger while unraveling a conspiracy.   The way survival—through volunteering, recovery, or writing—gives meaning and accountability can help people endure trauma, addiction, and reinvention.   Karen's approach to writing, creativity, discipline, and timing, and how small daily habits (like 15 minutes a day) can build a creative life. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Karen E. Osborne, and she has been on the podcast about a year ago, and it was a really fun conversation. But this time we are talking about her book, Justice for Emerson. And here's a little peek at what it's about. When Aria Wright discovers the body of Vietnam veteran Emerson, she becomes the next target. Forcing her to unravel a murder mystery rooted in Emerson's traumatic past from the assassination era of Vietnam War to a fateful killing in Bangkok. Spanning decades of violence, addiction, and buried secrets. The story traces how Emerson's shattered life connects to present-day danger, as Aria uncovers a conspiracy that could cost them everything.

This is a really emotional mystery thriller, and the characters just feel so real. And I love the way that Karen is able to write books that are really fun, pacey, bingeable mysteries, but also have some other things to say about life, about society. about culture. And when I got to talk with her, it was so fascinating hearing how much of the research she did for this book she did in person with real people, including her husband. So that being said, let's hear from Karen. I am so excited because if you've been listening for the last couple of years,

Karen E. Osborne has been on here before. And she is back to talk about another one of her wonderful book. So welcome back, Karen. thank you for having me back kate it's just it's a delight i love following you i love your shows so i'm really honored to be to be back oh yeah yeah when you sent me this one i was like oh this will be a fun one to dive into and have some conversations about um so we are talking about justice for emerson and i'm always intrigued especially with writers who write multiple books what what was your writing process with this one and was it different than any of your other books. Yeah, so I like learning new things. So I don't stick with one genre. I don't stick with one

approach. And so this is my first dual timeline on murder mystery. And one of the tricky things about writing dual timelines is, first of all, both stories have to be equally powerful. Right. Right. You can't have the present day is the one that, you know, I'm like, oh, when is she going to get, you know, the other one going? So both stories have to be equally powerful. And they have to eventually weave. Mm-hmm. And so that was fun and that was different.

Yeah. I also had to do more research than I normally like. Hmm. I don't like research. Oh. I like just making things up. Yes. Yes.

But as I did with True Grace, I had to do real serious research. And this one, Emerson is a Vietnam. vet and my husband is a Vietnam vet and I was in the same age as my husband and so many of my high school friends who I'm still in touch with all these many many years ago all had to go to Vietnam right draft and unless you came from privilege mm-hmm you could get out of the draft but if you were you know some black boys from the Bronx which my husband and brother and brother and brother and law and, you know, that's all they, that's what everybody was. They were going to school at night, you know, college at night, you know, working,

you know, what working class people have to do. And so everybody got drafted. And the Vietnam War, you know, wasn't, it was not a celebrated war, as you know, people treated the vet so poorly. So that was, that was another interesting part of plumbing my husband's memory. At 78, he didn't, you know, he had all the answers. I don't remember what color the earth was back then. I don't remember.

So it was fun. It was fun. My brother-in-law helped me. My husband did help me. Yeah. A young Air Force vet, a younger, much younger Air Force vet, and fellow writer, Cam Torrens, he was a great help because he had a 30-year. Air Force

career and Cal is in the Air Force as my husband was and my brother-in-law was. So it was fun. I just stop saying I don't like research. I have to stop saying that. You just don't want to do maybe the like, you know, having to chase down a Google rabbit hole. But if it's people, maybe that makes it more fun.

I think that's it. Yeah. That seems to be the difference. Yeah. So you talked about the two timelines and that was new for you. And with those, also always wonder, did you write the past one straight through and then the present? Or did you kind of write them as you were just unfolding the story? You know, this is something else I'm going to have to stop saying because my newest book that I'm writing now, it's no longer true. But I do not

plan. Oh, yeah. I don't plan. I write. And so my husband was halfway through three quarters of the way through the book because I was three quarters. And he came into my office and he said, Karen, this book is so good. He said, I can't figure out who the murderer is. And I said, I know. I know who it is either. He said, wait, you don't know yet who killed?

I'm sure he will reveal himself. He will before I'm finished. Yes. Yeah, no, so I wrote them, I wrote them chapter by chapter weaving them. Wow. Didn't map out

Emerson's story. Didn't map out Aria's story. Didn't map out. Didn't you love Jacks? Oh, yes. He's like, I had a guy on

LinkedIn. I was not really a friend. I met him once and then he became LinkedIn, you know. Yeah. Travel for a living. And so he writes me on

LinkedIn. He goes, Karen, I'm just, getting on my way to wherever. And if you do anything to hurt my man, Jacks, if you do anything, you like killing people

off, you better not kill off Jacks. And then two days later, he goes, okay, I'm back. Jacks is okay. Yeah, there are those characters where you're like, I love this character so much, but I'm reading a mystery or a thriller, so now I'm scared.

I'm scared. Exactly. I have another friend Stacia Pelliterer, and she wrote this wonderful, wonderful, she writes beautiful literary fiction. And I was almost finished and I closed the book because I knew that one of the three characters, something bad had to happen. It just wouldn't have been, right? It's just everybody couldn't have to happily ever after.

And I left all three of them. And so I called her and I said, Stach, I don't want to finish it. Oh. I don't want to know who you hurt. Yes. That's the best writing, isn't it? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like, it's so impressive when, like, even going into a genre where you know that might happen,

but you still find yourself just, like, really falling for the characters, you're like, okay, well, this author did make this world very real. Yeah. Well, people told me that about Emerson, because when you open the book, Emerson is dead. And then I start telling his story from 1968. And so Reader said to me, I know he's dead, but I was rooting for him. I know. I wanted him to be like a trick.

Like when we get back to the basement, he jumps up and says, I'm okay. There's just a wound. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That is sometimes that's the hardest part. Sometimes I can't read. I've had to learn that when I'm like in my ludial or PMS phase, I can't read.

I can't read the same books that I read the rest of the month or like I'm just going to be wrecked. And I think sometimes it's sometimes it's those books where you're getting the perspective of someone you already know is dead. And you're like, I love this person and I know they're dead already. Let's fix it. Let's fix it. Yeah. Well, which idea came to you first? So was it Emerson's story?

Was it Ariya's story? Was it both of them? Yeah. So Arya came to me first. Oh, okay. As you and I have spoken about in the past, most of my protagonists are women that have had terrible trauma. Yeah. You and I had a really good conversation about trauma and overcoming it.

And so I decided to write about somebody who grew up well, who had loving parents and a loving family and married well. Yeah. And her husband loved her. and she has a son. But then she had to have trouble, too. Yeah. So the husband's dead and she's only 50. He died when she was 48.

And her son is in full rebellion. And he's in rebellion while she's paying Cornell University tuition. Right. That's some expensive rebellion. That's a big time for you to be acting up. And she runs this not for. profit that she loves. She's helping me unhoused and marginalized people. And so I drew on my past life before I was a novelist, my 40-year career, 45-year career. And so that was fun

of putting that whole spin on things and drawing from my experiences there. So she came to me first, and then and then Cal Emerson came to me. Yeah. And then all the bad guys and everybody else. Yeah. That makes sense. With Emerson's story. So it sounds like you did a lot of research with people as well.

Was there anything that like really surprised you that you found out about that time period? I'm sure you knew a lot about the time period in general. but was there anything that really surprised you? So what was interesting? Because when Bob would tell me about a place, I'd go online and look for pictures of, you know, what did that street look like? Yeah. What were the sounds like?

So because some of it takes place in Bangkok. And so that was intriguing. But one of the biggest things that I had forgotten is, Bob told me that alcohol, Emerson becomes an alcoholic. And during the Vietnam War, alcohol was so cheap on the basis. The government made it so easy for the servicemen to buy, like a bottle of scotch was $1.25. Right. So that, I had forgotten that.

Yeah. And how easy it was. for them to numb themselves. You know, when they come back from the mud, you know, the mud is up to their necks in Vietnam. They're, you know, they're out there. I mean, Bob was in the Air Force, so he didn't go through that. Okay. But, you know, the Army guys, they're in the mud and they come back and they're, you know, they're blank.

And then here's this cheap, cheap alcohol. Yes. That you can down and down and drown. so many of them came back with substance abuse. Oh, yeah. Substance abuse problems. It wasn't what. There was no empathy for it at all.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, this is how we're going to keep them moving. That's how we're going. Yeah. And so the guys drank and smoked and. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And populated with the locals. And then left, right, left a lot of American, Vietnamese babies. babies behind it was it wasn't ugly war is ugly anyway it discussed kind of where I was I was thinking about because there's I haven't read it yet but I just got the audio book for uh sedeka johnson's keeper of the lost children and that's not the Vietnam war but it is like mixed children that were just like lost on purpose though um because of war and like in like you're saying like when men go to other countries, especially when they're doing something as violent as war, the alcohol can self-soothe, but also sleeping with women there can self-sooth too.

And then they just, they just left. Yeah. You know, they left. And for the babies that came out, the ones that had sex with men who are white men, they had a less difficult time those children than the ones that had sex with black soldiers and black because now they're so different they're so different so different so they didn't belong you know one place either yeah it was um yeah yeah yeah i didn't put all that in this book though right right emerson didn't do that no no no no but yeah the the other since we're just

about the history of it all. The other interesting thing is like he ships out the day of or the day after MLK is assassinated. And that like sets so much of a tone as well for like what was going on there. So in America. So it's like civil rights act has passed. But does that mean that everyone all of a sudden is treating black people? Well, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what's happening.

And so then having to go fight a war that, like, you probably don't even believe in or want to go do is, like, is extra traumatic. So what, what kind of, like, intrigued you about, I mean, not intrigued me, you know what I mean? Like about that time period and, like, kind of getting to write just how complicated that would be to even be a black American soldier. So that actually happened. That was actually Bob's. that happened to him. He was on his way. I was home with my black arm band, protesting the war,

you know, and he was going off to fight it. And he had made peace with it. You know, this is what his country, that he was going to do the best job he could. And he was, you know, so he was a good airman. But on,

but then when King was assassinated, they found out over the Pacific Ocean. Oh, he just thought, like, what am I doing here? Right. What, what, why, you know, why am I fighting for a country that doesn't even want me or, you know, so it was, and he was, you know, 20 years old. Yeah. And it was, it was a very, very, and the, I was working in Manhattan. Uh-huh.

We were married and I was, but I was living home with my parents again because we'd just gotten married. and he had to go off and I'm home. And he, and the announcement of King came out. And I went out on the street and people were just angry. And I saw this group of young men, boys, mostly they were boys. You know, you could just see. And there was no guns, no knives, no anything.

Right. Anger. Bubbling up anger. Mm-hmm. And they didn't know what to do with it or. Right. You know, so it was a really turbulent time. Have you read Kristen Hanna's The Women?

No, I need to read any of her books, but definitely that one. Well, first of all, she's amazing. Yeah. She's amazing. The Nightingale. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

But what was amazing about the women, was they were treated horribly when they came back. Right. These were the nurses who were on the front lines, who were right in harm's way, who were, and they weren't even recognized. They weren't being allowed to.

They were doing trauma surgery. And when they came home, they were changing bed pants. Yeah. Yeah. Or soldiers just go back and just be, give it home yeah that's that's a really that's a really good i need to read that one i just like in the last like year and a half two years got into historical fiction so i'm like slowly working through

all of the great historical fiction yeah it's um some are you know some are just amazing i mean world war two fiction there's so much yeah around but nightingale is one of those books that you just never forget yeah i've okay I've got to read that one. That's what I'd start. Yeah, I will. I will. So then like the other thing in the present time, we have Aria who is recently, I would call it recently, widowed still two years.

Yeah. And so she has that that she's trying to grapple with. And then she just walks in and kind of witnesses at least the aftermath of a murder. Yes. And so I think she's an interesting protagonist because she, it's also the kind of like, not that she's an amateur sleuth, but it's like someone who's not normally trying to figure out a murder kind of gets forced into that. But she also has like her internal world and her emotional arc that is passing. And some of that is with Jack. So there's also, there's an element

of romance in this one too. So what was, what was kind of fun for you about writing? writing her character and writing like the emotional journey she was already on before she got involved with trying to solve her. 48 and a widow 48 and now she's a CEO, a black female CEO of a not for profit. So people were doubting her and she was doubting herself. Mm-hmm. Even, you know, people weren't, even though it's 2024, you know, women are still, right? things have not changed so very much. My stitch, which my six isn't too great either.

So she had all of, all of that trying to prove herself and she knew something was wrong. Something was going on. So besides finding Cal in the basement with a beloved volunteer, she thought that the books weren't right.

And her accountant was not giving her all the facts. And so all of that was swirling. And then here is this man. You know, and our son is M.I.A. in New York. So she's got all of this going on. And then there's Jaxe who is too tall.

Aria is five foot two. And Jack's is six foot two. And she's, how can people like a foot difference? How do they even have sex? How is that possible? Does he hold you up? What happens? Yes.

And so he's too tall. He's too young because she's 50 and he's 40. He's too white. She's black and he's white. He's too rich. Yeah. She's like, goodness, I could just see the headlines. You know, CEO of not for profit canoodling with donor.

You know, a loss year or so. And then finally, she thinks it's too soon. You know, he still loves Ben. Yeah. Even though Ben is not around, you know, she's still wearing her wedding ring. So Aria has a lot, you know, she's trying to solve this murder, you know, working with the police, working with Jacks. She's trying to solve the murder. She's trying to find her son who's being threatened because the murderer saw her and she saw the murderer and he threatened her.

And she had a mask on though. Yeah. But he threatened her. And so she's in our family. So she's worried about her son. So she's got a lot going on. And the present day story takes place over like two weeks. You know, it's a short time pan.

And the other one goes decade by decade by decade by decade. Yeah. Until we come together. But I like Aria. She's got all her self-doubt and worries. She's got a lot of spine. she's a strong woman. Yeah.

Her inner monologue is pretty funny sometimes too. Like we were kind of pointing out. I love like a funny because I'm like I feel like I'm not saying I'm super funny. But it's like a lot of us, if you actually heard what was like going on in our heads, it would be kind of funny because we all aren't saying everything out loud. Yeah. Yeah, she was really fun. I did.

She was fun to write. She's the same age as my kids. She's not one of my children. But, you know, they were born in the same year. I believe you were a 50 year old children. Yes. My son will be 55. Oh, my gosh.

Wow. You look so young. Thank you. How did that happen? I don't know. He's a writer, too, my son. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah.

He owns a business. I mean, he's a full-time. He has a family and business and all that. But he is a little bit of business. short story writer and he's been in some wonderful magazines it's very hard to get into literary magazines yeah it's like 10,000 you know stories submitted but six slots right he's in like one or two every year wow good for him yeah he's a beautiful writer and he what he does is he promises himself he'll write 15 minutes a day every day no matter what see i need to do that is what i need to do

just do it in bite size because then still stuff would get done. It's amazing. I mean, sometimes he ends up, you know, he's on a plane and he can write longer than right. But it is that he never, that's his minimum. He never lets a day go by where he doesn't write for 15 minutes. And who doesn't have 15 minutes? Right.

You're totally right. Mm-hmm. So what are you writing? Well, I, a couple years ago, started writing something. And then I got kind of stalled. we were wanting to make our business more profitable. And so there was a lot of focus on that work. And also like maybe making this,

the book Wild brand profitable. What we do for work, work is like clients and like interior design and like construction. We help them with their social media content. But I was like, could I make Book Wild profitable? And I kind of, I'm getting there. now we are doing some bookish events and there's some of that so it's interesting i got to a point

where i was like do i need to keep like like telling myself like oh you're a failure if you don't write every day like because i was trying to like discipline my way into finishing a book which is fine too um or should i let myself like kind of try to get more profitable like fix some of that stuff and have more headspace yeah and so right after i thought or talked about that about a year ago. And I was like, I think I'm going to try to make book wild profitable. And then that will make it even easier to write. My friend reached out, her name, Sagit, and she was independently publishing her second book. And she wanted to do the audio book. And she was like, I know this is kind of crazy, but like, I've listened to your voice so much. And I know you could edit.

Could you narrate with me? So it was like, I ended up co-narrating and editing a podcast last summer. or sorry, not a podcast, an audio book, also podcasts. Yeah. So I did that, but now it's like, Bukwile is a little profitable. We got our other business clients more profitable. So coincidentally, I've had like three different conversations in the last week where people are like, what are you going to write now? And I'm like, oh, is this, is this the time to get back to it? I think it might be. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds good. That sounds wonderful. Oh, my gosh, an audio book yeah that takes it took a lot of time yeah you don't realize like even if you have like

the mental uh stamina to like just keep reading you really can't do much more than like four hours a day of like continuous speaking for an audiobook and then your voice is getting tired yeah yeah really tired and you can't keep up yeah yeah all of my books are in audio yeah uh yeah uh And the voice actor, wonderful, amazing woman is no longer doing it. So my new books, my two new books, I'm looking for a voice actor. She just said, you know, Karen and my acting career has really taken off. Oh, nice. You know, she says, I'm doing so much more stage work and I'm doing it.

And, you know, just not profitable because books aren't profitable. I know. That was what made me like, maybe I'll wait a little bit. to get back to writing. Unless you are way up here, you know, the known everybody's. It's just even,

even, you know, wonderful writers who have seven books out and eight books out. The only profitable writers I know are romance writers that turn them out. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

I have a friend who reads something like that where he's like, she is just pumping these books out. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I do think you have to be doing it because you really want to tell a story or like really have something that came to you and you just want to do it. And that was where I kind of came to the decision a couple years ago where I was like, okay, I know I do want to do this, but now may not be the right time. But to your point now, I'm like, I could, I, I can't honestly say that I couldn't do 15 minutes a day. Like that would be a lie if I said I couldn't. so yeah and what he does is he doesn't um edit himself he doesn't oh that's right and he doesn't

because if you're only going to put 15 minutes in yeah you can't spend you know 10 of them agonizing over a sentence right so you know you've got to get you know and then and then later he once he's got something then he goes back yeah looks at it and sees what's what's good and what isn't but it's the discipline of writing i try i write every day He got me writing every day. That's awesome. That's so cool. Well, I need to.

I need to because I know I want to do it and I love stories. Then you can come be on my podcast. I know. I know. Then we can swap. Well, back to Emerson. With his story, there's also kind of like, as you pointed out, he struggles with the addiction like kind of during mostly after the war as well and we kind of see that character arc

without like spoilers he also does get to a point where he is able to start volunteering and I it was making me think of how much we talk about how like sometimes like when you're feeling really bad about yourself like volunteering connecting with other people can be so energizing so did that kind of naturally come about as you were writing it or did you kind of see that as like where you are headed for him yeah so that's how i live that's how bob and i live so i so believe i try and lift um societal issues in all my books yes i don't make the books about it you know it's not like to get somebody over the head with it but i try and make those things real what when unhoused people are facing Yeah. And so in volunteering, when you have purpose, you can't spend your whole life thinking,

woe is me. When you have purpose, you know, has you have a reason to get out of bed. If you've got a job you hate, but you have purpose, you can get through that job so you can go do. So Bob and I feed the unhoused with my church, you know, three times a month. Every month, we do two nighttime feedings. in one breakfast feeding where they get showers and clean clothes and toiletries and a doctor van is there and, you know, so and then both of us volunteer professionally for our professional organizations and both of us are on boards. So I love volunteers and I know how important volunteering is. And then Emerson's life trying to stay sober, starting to stay clean. when you're helping somebody else, it's so much easier.

Because now you're staying clean for yourself, but because someone's counting on you. Yes. Someone is expecting you. My nephew who, you know, fought addiction early in his life. I asked him the other day, I said, how are you doing? How are you doing? Yeah. He said, I got three kids on Karen.

He said, I don't have time. You know, he said, I got to do what I got to do. I got three, I had a wife with three kids. Yes. So again, purpose. He matters a lot, yeah. It matters a lot. So he says it's not as hard as it used to be because he sees two babies and they're little.

Yeah, that's a lot of work then. Yes. And a dog. Yes. Oh, they can be a lot of work too. Yeah. I wanted to see that I know that it's a struggle. Yeah.

You know, getting sober is such a struggle and you have lapses like Anderson does. Yeah. Yeah. Lompson has some heartbreaking, heartbreaking lapses. But he also has drive. You know, he loves, he has love in his life and responsibility. Mm-hmm. And he makes it.

Yeah. He, you know, he makes it. And then they kill him. And then you kill him. It's what you're talking about too really reminds me if there's a show on Apple TV right now called Margo's Got Money Troubles. Yes. It is really good. And it's a book for anyone listening first. But there's a moment like essentially this, I think she's 19. She's 19 or 20. But so I don't know if I should just. say teenager or woman, but she gets pregnant and it's, I mean, this is all in the synopsis. She is pregnant by her English professor who wants nothing to do with the kids, but she decides to have the kid. And now her life is like completely changed as life does when you have a kid. She's just kind of trying to figure out what to do. Her dad is played by Nick Offerman and he's been in and out of her life because of substance abuse and because he's a WWE fighter. And basically he comes back once he finds out that she did have a kid and he has been in rehab. And he and he chose to go to.

Like he was like, I'm ready to commit to this myself. And she basically needs someone to help pay rent. And it essentially gets to a point where the conversation comes up that he might live with her. And she's like, why wouldn't, why can't you live with like these two friends of yours? And he's like, my therapist has said like, that's probably going to pull me back into that. And she's like, oh, okay. And she was like, and you like don't want to, you don't want to like live alone in like a small apartment. And he says, and it's in the book too. But he says, no, then I don't have anyone to perform a normal C4. And I was like, that is such a powerful sentence. And exactly what you were saying is like, even if you were so. like depressed and battling the addiction and like even if it doesn't even fully feel like you have a purpose through volunteering having things you have to go do around other people will force you to like perform normalcy and like stay in that and I think it's so powerful yeah it's kind of like an accountability of just even being around people who like know what you're trying to do with your

life essentially. That's a powerful line. Yeah. I didn't realize it was on a book. I didn't realize the show was based on a book. Yeah, by her, the author's name is Rufi Thorpe, RUFI, for anyone who hasn't read it. But yeah, it got picked up the actress who plays her L. Fanning narrated the audiobook when it came out, I think two years ago. And then it got picked up. So yeah. I did it. This, you're listening people. This is what I want. My books make great movies.

I'm telling you. They would. They really would. Did you do any like other research into addiction and like dealing with that? I think you, I think it was in touched on in your other book as well. But was there, was there any kind of new research you did around it? Yeah. You know, I'm mostly listening to people.

Yeah. You know, I love people research. as you mentioned rather than going and going online and digging it in or reading books about it. Yeah. And so I spoke to, I spoke to addicts and recovering addicts.

And I had a, what do you call it, a culture reader. Oh, yeah, sensitivity. Yeah, to make sure that I didn't depict it wrong. and the thing that I got back, which I love, they said, you write about bad things with no judgment. Oh, yeah. That would be amazing feedback. And that was just,

that really made me feel so good. He said, I don't, I don't feel like you were judging Cal at all. You're just honest. He said, all your trauma, everything that you write about, you never seem to be condemning. or the coping yeah you know yeah it's he says you just you just write it yeah and uh with empathy

and honesty yeah so that made me feel really good yeah that reminds me i can't remember which book it was there was a book i read i think last year and someone is finally checking into rehab and the the character is feeling like a lot of shame about it and just talking to the person who's like helping her get checked in and the person who's like checking her in like puts her hand on her hand and she was like I'm so grateful that you did what you needed to do to survive until now and now we can now we can find some other ways and I was like that is how we need to be looking at it like all of us have some coping mechanisms that even if they're not going to escalate to addiction that is starting to really affect our lives we all have some things where we're like I don't know I should

shouldn't totally do this right now. But like if it's something that kind of keeps you here and keeps you connected to life, like we could be compassionate and think of that as a good thing, especially when someone is just ready to try to not do it anymore too. So. Yeah, that's a, that's a really, it's a really powerful thing because so many people who are recovering from something, yeah, self-medicate. Yes. You know, it's, you know, things to dull the pain to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. And some of them are good. Yep.

Right? So I used to put on music. Amassed, you know, if I'm feeling low. Like I know how to get myself out of this. Yes. Some of them are destructive. Yeah. I think I just have one more glass of wine.

Right. Maybe I'll feel better. Yeah, it can be all of it. Yeah. Yeah. It really can. Yeah. The other interesting thing.

is the title is justice for Emerson and I think that works on multiple levels for the story like I don't think it to me at least I wasn't interpreting it as just justice for the fact that he was murdered um it kind of felt like also someone caring enough to like bear witness to his life like that's a justice he should have been granted like sooner um so is that something you were thinking about as you were writing his timeline is like he suffered a lot of injustices, not just being murdered. He did. He did. And he caused a lot of harm. True. As well. And, but in the end, he did get justice. You know, he found his way. He was having a good life. He reconnected with his stepson.

He, you know, he had purpose. So it was just a lot of layers. Yeah. And then let's find his murderer. Because after all people, this is a murder mystery. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, we're still doing that in the whole story. I think it is cool how Ariya and Jacks' relationship develops as they are solving a

murder. What was it like writing their romance in the midst of like keeping it suspenseful and everything? So all, all of my books, I, I always have, I benefited, right? I'm having married my childhood sweetheart. I've been married 58 years. And, and I married such a good man, such a good person. And so I put him in all my stories. He changes color. He changes age. He changes. Oh, we love this.

But I just feel like every woman needs somebody who just loves her. And loves her with her flaws, loves her because I wasn't easy, Kate. I was not easy. I'm not that either. somebody who just, you know, loves her. So at each, every one of my books, you'll see there is, there is a guy that's just a good person. Yeah. And so Jack's, um, Texas is just a really solid, good guy.

And I love adding romance to all my stories, even in the midst of horribleness. Yes. Uh, because that's how life is. Yeah. Because that's how that is. That's how life is. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It doesn't happen separately. Things happen at the same time. Yeah. That's what I've been learning about my reading self is there are, I just read a book called Into the Blue by Emma Brody. So good. Very, very emotional. I was so attached to the characters.

And like loose synopsis. It's these two, they're not childhood friends, but they meet when she's a senior in high school. and he's two years older and comes back for the summer because his mom is dealing with some health issues. So he's there for the summer. They end up like getting really bonded by practicing improv together. So it's kind of a story about improv, stand-up comedy, like it goes on to do that. But they get really close over a few months and then he just disappears from her life. And it's like early 2000s. It's like before we all had cell phones. It could be like, hey, where are you? He just disappears. And so after like being so connected, they don't see each other for seven years.

And then they end up on a set together and she starts to learn why he did what he did. That's all I'll say. But it's called a love story on like the front cover. And I've been learning where maybe like strict romance books don't totally work for me. But I'm hearing this differentiation of like a love story. So this is like a story that goes from like 2000 to I think 2017. So it spans their lives and they have a lot of really difficult things and grief and stuff to deal with. And I think what you're talking about too is what I'm realizing is like I do like I really do enjoy books where it's like this love was happening the whole time. But no, it was not romantic the whole time like life was happening. Life was happening. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's what I've learned about myself as a reader because I liked the amount that you had of some love in here too. Yeah. The other thing you kind of talked about it is it takes place in multiple locations. Like we really are going around the globe. And then even like Aria's like work feels like very grounded as a setting too. So what did you what was it like probably more with like? like the international stuff. But what was it like writing atmospheres in different settings?

That was fun. You know, looking at pictures of bank, like I said earlier, and you know, Bob telling me about what Bangkok look like and, and that bar, the bar where a murder happens early in the story,

you know, what that, that was a famous bar that really existed. The street was a famous street. that really existed. And there are people online who they write, they live in the past.

Yes. You know, their identity, I guess. They, you know, it's like the old football player who was a football hero in high school and he never let his life be anything else to be proud of, you know, so he's still like the football player. So I found all these Vietnam vets online who would end up.

answer my questions. You know, they had, you know, chat threads. Wow. Yeah. So that was fun. And Vietnam and Bangkok, I've never, I've traveled the world, but I've never been to Vietnam. I've never been to, except to stop in their airport on my new to Tokyo.

But so that was fun. And then I set all my books in New York because that's where I grew up. in Florida, but that's where I lived most of my life. And so I can see all those scenes. I know what those streets look like. I know what that. And in true grace, I don't know if you remember, but there were scenes in Congo, Africa,

there were scenes in England, there were scenes in Jamaica, and then back to, you know, back to New York. And I write about places I've been and then I write bad places. I haven't been. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's still fun. Yeah, you don't want to only write the places that you've been for sure. Like, you can get a grasp of things. Yeah, you can get a grasp of other places. Even with like Google Maps, like, that's like the other thing that is kind of wild now is there was, one of my favorite spy novels is called Alias Emma by Ava Glass.

Ava Glass, yeah. And I still remember reading the first one. It's a series now. But in the first one, alias Emma, this, what is, MI5? Yeah, that's who London is. This agent has to essentially protect a Russian man who had been basically, like, he was giving them information against Russia. But then, like, Russia found out.

And so she was supposed to just like pick him up at this one place and like drive him to a safe house. But instead she gets called and they're like they've hacked the CCTV. You're going to have to figure out how to get completely across London without going anywhere near cameras. And you're like, oh my gosh. I know. And so those cameras are everywhere. Everywhere. They have so many.

Yeah. And so the story takes the place over like. 20 hours. Like, it's all in one day. And she's just trying to cross, cross London. And this was when I first started. So I think this was like five years ago was when this one came out and I interviewed her. And I was just like talking about how cool that concept was. And she was like, yeah, I didn't even, I haven't even been to most of the places that I list in the book. She literally wrote that spy novel going through alleys on like Google Maps. And I'm like, That is crazy.

That is wonderful. First of all, it sounds like a great book. It sounds like a wonderful book. Yeah. Yeah. It was very fun. I use Google Map for that,

but that's a very, thank you. Yeah. I know. I was like, there's all kinds of stuff you can do now to kind of like get a feel, get a feel of the place,

really. That's true. Yeah. You do, I know you talked about, you kind of write different genres, and you do. Is there anything about mystery thrillers that you feel kind of particularly drawn to or is there something you really enjoy about them?

You know, I write what I love. Yeah, yeah. You know, I am a Michael Connolly, you know, Bill Dachie, Karen Roberts. You know, I love thrillers. Yeah. And I love historical fiction. Yeah. So there you go.

I write what. I read on what I love. Now I'm reading a lot of other books because I'm in my writing group and then I'm in my critique group. We have some fantasy writers and memoirs. So that's been fun reading very different stories and, you know, different venues and and I'm reading them, I'm reading books that I wouldn't have picked up, I think. But because, yeah, but because, I'm in this writing group. And so it's expanding my horizons. Yeah.

That's been happening to me. No matter what. Because Reckonings, which is family drama, it's women's fiction, family drama, you know, it's a page turner, short chapters. Yeah. You know, even though it's not a murder mystery and it's not a, but you still don't know what's going to happen. And you get a little annoyed at Roxy. I'm writing her and I'm thinking, girl, you have to stop this. Listen to Dallas.

Dallas are the best friends telling you to behave. Yes. We've got to have some tension. There's a lot to you, right? There's a lot of tension. You don't know if she's going to make it. But it's not a mystery and it's not a, you know, her life is in danger. but there's justice.

There is justice and there's social issues in it. And yeah, I love short chapters. I love, you know, page turner. So that's what I write. And sometimes people tell me, some readers say, Karen, you know, historical friction is supposed to be like bigger and over lots. Okay, but it just means it's from the past. It just means it's from the past.

true grace does take all my books take place over two to three weeks except true grace which takes place over five months but not years right it's the crucible is yeah night yeah yeah but i do like writing thrillers and i do like reading thrillers yeah i similarly have been reading genres and this one and emerson won the best mystery of the year by best thriller dot com oh yeah I saw that in the synopsis. That's so exciting. Yes. That was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. American Fiction Awards winner. Yes. That's awesome. That's fantastic.

What was the other thing that I was going to ask you about? Oh, no. Do you have any books that you recommend, since you're also such a big mystery and thriller reader? I also love books that can be mystery and thriller, but also have something to say as well about other stuff or social issues, cultural stuff. Do you have any favorites that you would recommend to people? So I, oh my goodness, so many. You could take your time. One of my favorite writers is a guy called Cam Torrens. And Cam is, I mentioned him a little bit earlier.

He's an Air Force guy. And now he's a rescue, mountain rescue. Oh, wow. Like search and rescue? Search and rescue. And his protagonist is a search and rescue. Oh, that's cool. And so many things, so many things happen to him.

And he's a really good mystery writer, not a murder mystery writer. or a, but a suspense. You know, sometimes there's murder, but there's suspense. And it's a series, but each book is a standalone that you can read. And he always, and he's, he writes about people that you can care about in situations that you can care about and the environment that you can care about. you know he um so he's a very i i love i love his uh writing and um what else am i what else am i i'm a nora roberts fan she's one of my guilty pleasures yes i don't think you're alone in that so i'm reading um what is the name of it i'm reading one of hers oh sundown

sundown and and she is this is a serial abuser. So the societal issue that she's raising is, you know, how people control other people. And like you might ask, why don't you leave? But so many times people can't. And even when they can, they don't know that they can. Yes.

Right? You know, when women get into abusive situations, one has to, it's so annoying. Your self-esteem can be so eroded. Yes, you just have no self-confidence. You don't believe the lies that you are being told about yourself. So that's a, that's a good one. Yeah.

And of course, she always has romance. Yes, yes. She always has tall, dark and handsome. Yes. Tough, you know, even in her fantasies, you know. I forgot she wrote fantasy too. Oh, yes. The One series.

That was very good. And so in this one, he rides a horse. And that one, he rides a dragon, you know. And she always has multiracial. Sundown doesn't particularly, but her fantasy stories. Oh, okay. There's all kinds of multiracial people in it, which I like to. Oh, yeah.

And that's how I write. Yeah. Everybody's because that's the world. That's the world. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, now I want to read it. I'm going to have to add that one. That sounds really good. Well, I obviously really enjoyed this one. I also listened to it. I really did enjoy the narrator. It sounds like you'll have a new one, but anyone who likes audio. I know. Anyone who enjoys audiobooks, I do love this one for audio as well. And I'm so. excited to see your next two that you have lined up. Yes. Yes. So I'll come back. Yes. Yes. Is there anywhere people should follow you? Do you have like an email list or where you are on Instagram so they can keep up today with it all? All of the above. So my website is Karen E. Osborne because there's an amazing Karen Osborne who writes fantasy. And we actually got to meet. Oh, that's so cool. I was at a book, I was at a book signing. Uh-huh.

And this woman walks in upstate New York and this woman walks in and she goes, hey, Karen Osborne. I'm Karen Osborne. And when you Google Karen Osborne, we both come up. Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. I'm Karen E. Oswald. She's younger than my children. And she writes fantasy.

She's a very, she's a, she's terrific. Uh, so anyway, um, what was I saying to you? So my, uh, where do they can't, you're, Oh, well, they can find me. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm at www. www.caren e.osborne.com. You can sign up on my website for my newsletter.

I only bought me once a month. It's usually with a book recommendation. And then something going on in my writing life. And I'm on Facebook, Karen E. Osborne author on Facebook. And I'm on Instagram. And threads. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. LinkedIn. All of it. Well, I will add those links so that everyone can go follow them. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you again. Thank you so much, Kate. And I can't wait to interview you when your book comes out. Yes.

It's a must.