Bookwild - Wendy Walker: Don't Look for Me

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Wendy Walker about her book Don't Look for Me.To learn more about Wendy, go to https://www.wendywalkerbooks.com/ Follow her on Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/wendywalkerauthor/To check out the book, go to https://www.wendywalkerbooks.com/books/dont-look-for-me/#descriptionDon't Look for Me SummaryOne night, Molly Clarke walked away from her life. The car abandoned miles from home. The note found at a nearby hotel. The shattered family that couldn't be put back together. It happens all the time. Women disappear, desperate to leave their lives behind and start over. She doesn't want to be found. Or at least, that's the story. But is that what really happened to Molly Clarke?The night Molly disappeared began with a storm, running out of gas, and a man in a truck offering her a ride to town. With him is a little girl who reminds her of the daughter she lost years ago. It feels like a sign. And Molly is overcome with the desire to be home, with her family—no matter how broken it is. She accepts the ride. But when the doors are locked shut, Molly begins to suspect she has made a terrible mistake.When a new lead comes in after the search has ended, Molly's daughter, Nicole, begins to wonder. Nothing about her mother's disappearance makes sense.Nicole returns to the small, desolate town where her mother was last seen to find the truth. The locals are kind and eager to help. The innkeeper. The bartender. Even the police. Until secrets begin to reveal themselves and she comes closer to the truth about that night—and the danger surrounding her. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Welcome back to Between the Lines. I'm here with Wendy Walker, who wrote Don't Look for Me. It was a book I read earlier this year and absolutely loved. I could not put it down. So thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me. And I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. Yeah, it was amazing. So when did you know that you wanted to write a book or when did you know that you wanted to be an author? So I've been at this a long time.

I actually first got the idea when my youngest, I'm sorry, when my oldest son was a baby when he was first born. so he's now 23. So that was a long time ago. But back then it was just an idea. And I had taken time off from practicing law to be home with him. And I sort of saw the writing on the wall with practicing law that it might be difficult to spend the amount of time I wanted to with my children and also pursue that career. So I was thinking about options. And this was the option that came to me.

And so I think part of me must have always wanted to tell stories in some way because it's a strange thing to just pop into your head, having never studied or written anything before creatively. So, yeah, so that was the idea that I had. Maybe I could write a novel. And many tries and stops and starts and almost giving up and such a long journey. But it was, I would say, 17 years. before I sold a novel that established my career and enabled me to write full time. And that was my, I guess what they call a breakout novel. It was called All Is Not Forgotten. Yeah. And I sold it in 2015. It came out in 2016.

And I've been writing thrillers ever since. That is so cool. This is a year, I've had a couple interviews before you. And that's like, what I keep hearing is, like, you've got to, like, truly want it. and like keep pursuing it if that's what you really want. So that 17 years, like you had to be pretty dedicated to get there then. And you have to adapt as well.

You have to adapt and you have to be willing to keep what's good and figure out what's not working and change and adapt and be a little bit business-minded while staying true to your creative inspirations. And it's, you know, It's a balancing act really of all of those things. Yeah, I, we've got a little bit of an interruption here. But, yes, I feel like we, my husband and I kind of make videos and stuff for social media and stuff like that.

So I've had that same experience where like how much of your creativity do you give up for your work and like, what do you stand up for? And it is difficult, but it's awesome that you stuck with it and writing lots of great books. now. What is your writing process like? So do you typically know like the story first? Do you know characters first? Like how does that work for you? It really depends. So with don't look for me, it started with a moment, a scene, which I can go into more later. With other books, has been a character. So an audible original that just came out. called American Girl that started with a character. And the plot was built for her to give her a vehicle so that I could, you know, to give her a story.

Sometimes it's a twist, a plot twist. And sometimes it's a theme. Like, ooh, I want to write about a narcissistic mother who damages her children. Or all it's not forgotten is about memory science and altering memory. So that theme was at the, you know, the heart of that book and everything was built around it. So it really depends on, you know, on the ideas that come and the characters that come to me and that I then grab hold of and build a story around. That's really cool. I did see your post about that audible one.

So how did like, I know it's kind of another random question, but how did that, do they like reach out to you? Because it's just available on audible, right? Yeah, so Audible does originals, and so they, by doing that, they are able to control the way the story is told and make them as listener friendly as possible. And it's really, they've been really evolving over time. And I did a novella for them about a year ago. And so with this story, it was a little bit different from my darker thrillers. And so it seemed like a good place to go. So I actually reached out to them to see if they wanted to craft really a vehicle for telling the story.

So it's about an autistic girl who witnesses a murder. And they were just able to do amazing things with it. We have scripted chapters with an ensemble cast. And the performer is an autistic young woman who was really able to give an. authentic voice to the character. And so for that book, it really lent itself to going into audio first. And I will probably adapt it for print at a later date. But yeah, they are doing some really cool things with scripted scenes and podcasts that are

fictional. And it's really, it's all about telling stories. And I love having the opportunity to tell stories in different ways. Yeah, that is really cool. cool. I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet because I've been like reading more and more books to get more podcasts. But that I saw that and I was like, that's fascinating that they're getting into that. And that's so cool that she got to voice the character too. So that one you said kind of came to you with the idea of like a character. So how do you create your characters? How do you get to know

them? What's your process like for that? Wow. So, you know, some people have, charts that they make and they keep, you know, sort of spreadsheets about their characters. I will sometimes jot things down. I think I usually have a couple of characters who are at the center of the story and their personalities will will evolve a little bit as I'm writing, but usually there is something in their past that is motivating them in the story. So it will be some kind of trauma or an event or a psychological condition like narcissism that will then really shape their personalities. And then I do research.

So for example, when I was writing Emma in the night, which has a narcissistic mother and then her two daughters who were deeply affected by her, I read a ton of blogs on chat rooms. from survivors of narcissistic parents and caregivers and got a sense of what life was like for them and the types of things that their mothers in particular did that they felt were so damaging to them. And then that became the character. Like I was like, oh, that's how a narcissistic mother behaves around her children. And then, of course, I do the research into the psychology.

and then try to picture manifestations of the characteristics that I learn as I'm doing the research into the psychology. And so, for example, with trauma and don't look for me, it deals a lot with grief. I do research into that, and then you start to get these markers of this is, these are the types of things that people go through. And then when I'm crafting the character, a lot of it is about internal thoughts and feelings. I would say more so than physical descriptions and, you know, other external qualities. And all of that internal stuff really comes from the research and the backstory and psychological history that I have attributed to the character. That's really cool. That was like very apparent and don't look for me too.

So I have a couple questions kind of about that once we get to the post-spoiler part. but the characters were very fleshed out. Like it very much felt like you really were listening to someone's like complete internal dialogue. But speaking of Don't Look for Me, how would you describe it in like just a couple sentences? Oh, yes. So Don't Look for Me is about wife and mother, Molly Clark, who disappears after visiting her son at boarding school. and given the backstory and the history of that recent history and the family, the death of a child, it's the anniversary of that child's death. She feels guilty about that the accident that caused the death.

Her son was dismissive. Her daughter, the surviving daughter, her life is unraveling. She thinks her husband doesn't love her anymore might be having an affair. And so she's having these spinning thoughts and she winds up in a storm, out of gas, and just one thing leads to another. And everyone, and she disappears. And everyone assumes that she's walked away from her life. And so they give up the search after several days. I mean, it continues, but they, you know, they start to really believe that she's walked away from her life.

And so the story is told in a split time frame. And what's cool about it is you get to be with Molly hour by hour during her disappearance. So you know where she is and you know what's happening to her. But you also get to be with her daughter, Nicole, two weeks later when she gets a new lead and goes back to this very small kind of creepy town on the side of a river to follow this lead and try to find her mother at all cost. and so the chapters alternate and they sort of play off each other. So it adds to the element of suspense that you kind of are always one step ahead of each character when you enter a new chapter.

Yeah. It's some of my favorite parts in the, or favorite like storytelling types in the thriller genre is multiple care or multiple perspectives, which is what you have in the hopping timeline. So it was like two of my favorites and one. I love when that happens. What prompted you to write, don't look for me? Like where did that idea come from? So this was, this actually came from a real moment in my life, which I always say that my books aren't based on real life. And they actually are not, but they are always inspired by something that, you know, I either read or experience.

But I was actually driving back from my son's soccer game. and he was not in boarding school, but he was taking the bus home with the team. And I had four hours in the car alone. And it was a really just a lot going on in my life at the time. And it was a terrible game. They lost, but it was like one of those really brutal games with bad rap calls and heckling spectators. And I just felt like I couldn't protect my child. And I felt so upset for him.

and I had this realization that my children were getting to that age where I could no longer shield them from some of the, you know, the uglier things in life, let alone, you know, bigger issues that I'm sure, you know, the people face as right as we get older and just feeling helpless, helpless in many, many ways. And I was at this gas station and I was looking down this road and the road was actually idyllic was actually a beautiful day and cornfields on either side and I just had this urge to just walk down that road it was like this split second of I'm just going to walk down that road I just want to I want to like I need to separate myself from these churning thoughts that don't have any

there's no way to resolve them there's no usually you know if there's something uh that's bothering me I can sort of come up with a plan like okay I'll do this then and and I can think about that plan and sort of, you know, makes it makes the problem seem less, you know, traumatic. But there was no solution to this. It was just having to accept something in life that was really hard to accept as a mother. And I mean, it sounds so silly now, but these things can spiral. And so when I have this thought, I was like, a four-hour car ride by yourself.

Right. Nothing else to think about. Yeah. And so I, you know, being a writer, one of the things I always tell other, like aspiring writers is anytime you have a thought that surprises you or you notice something that surprises you, that could be a book. Because if it surprises you, it'll surprise other people. And so I thought, wow, that was a weird thought.

Where did that come from? And so as soon as I got home, I researched, I don't even know what I Googled, but I came across this phenomenon called emotional hijacking. And it's where your brain, the emotional part of your brain, is is stimulated and it sort of turns to the rational side for help like help us help us you know find a solution so we don't have to be upset anymore and when the rational brain doesn't have an answer the emotional brain actually gets physically hot inside your brain and then the the thinking part the rational part of your brain is is like oh we're out of here and it actually disengages

it like physically disengages from the emotional part to save itself from harm and the emotional part takes over decision making. Right. And so that's where impulsive decisions come from like road rage and, you know, like when you have your, when your phone's not working and you want to throw it against the wall or bash it with a hammer. Yes. And and and then the rational part of your brain is like, no, don't do that.

You know, what if things aren't backed up in the cloud and it's $700 or whatever? And so you stop yourself, but it's really hard, right? It's really hard to do. But sometimes, you know, this is a lot of rash decisions are the result of emotional hijacking. And I thought, wow, that's what happened to me. I had this lip of a thought, which was instantly, obviously shut down. It was so instant.

It was like instantaneous. Right. But I grabbed hold of it. And that became the genesis of don't look for me. That's really cool. love that one, I love that you're like willing to share that. Like I think some people want to pretend like, oh, my emotions could never get the best of me. But like I feel like everybody has some point in their life where they're like, where did that thought come from? And it, or feeling.

It doesn't know. You don't always have to act on all of them. So that's, that's crazy. Especially having read the book, like how similar that is to like the beginning of a book. Yeah. That was the first chapter was that chapter. And obviously I had to, change it and you know make it you know but but yeah that was how it started yeah it's great um who would you cast

for the main characters if it was a TV show or a movie like you can pick which characters you want to choose so I know I've had time to prepare this answer and this is the honest truth I I do not know I have never ever and I mean that honestly not just because I'm you know it has been option for television

I don't know what's going to happen with it but yeah but you know not because yeah but you know not because I'm trying to you know hedge my bets for some actress who might attach to it but I really don't I don't ever picture I can't even describe

Molly and Nicole like their faces that I can't physically describe them like I could not physically describe their body types, except maybe, except they're not extreme, maybe. Like, they're not anorexic. They're not, you know, like, super big.

They're just, I don't picture them. I think I, but I don't, but in between that, are they voluptuous or slender or athletic? I don't picture them at all physically. Um, I think I may have described their hair color only because I had to draw comparisons to another character in the book, but I can't picture their faces. for any of the characters. Like none of them. And that's true for all of my books.

Even American Girl, which is based on a character, I cannot picture her in my mind. I know her. I know all of my characters. I know what they think, what they feel, what they would do. But physically,

I come up with nothing. Is that strange? It is kind of interesting because I do remember noticing like the first time that I think you said they had, one of them had blonde hair. I remember being like,

like I actually think there wasn't like a really specific description of them but like I didn't even noticed it that far into the book because it was like I was so immersed in what each character was thinking and what they were going through that like your brain kind of does fill in the gaps but at the same time when I was thinking like so who is I imagining like what actress do they look like I'm like I guess I was just like in their heads with them more than anything else yeah and I think it's, I personally, when I'm reading, I like to, I don't like too much description of characters. I like to be able to fill in the blanks with things that are familiar to me because it makes it easier for me to attach to the character. So if you describe a character as a badass, tough talking,

whatever. I'm going immediately draw from someone I know or a character I've seen on television or something like that. And it just, I think, helps me to then just immediately attach to the character by being able to fill in that blank and not wonder. And so I think unless a physical characteristic is important to the plot or to understanding that character, then I, I, I, I, tend to go light on character description. But I also, in my mind, it's not like I'm holding back. I really don't picture my characters. Right. Yeah, that's sometimes I have so much trouble like visualizing it with like setting. So sometimes even when someone's like describing a house layout, my brain's like, no,

we've already imagined this house. And so I'm like, I guess it's just where it's going to be happening. Yeah, I do. Yeah, the same, I feel the same way. And I don't, I don't, um, I tend to give sort of general descriptions, like a dilapidated house. That could mean anything to anybody. It's just that it's dilapidated. So you have to, you have to picture a falling down house, whether you're picturing, you know. And then I let people's imagination go. Yeah.

I mean, it still worked. Like I said, I think it was still like at least 20% into the book when I realized, like, I guess I don't know who I'm imagining right now. So the next part that we're going to go into, we'll have spoilers. So if any of you listening are like, wow, this sounds really great. Pause it. Go read it. And then come back.

And then you can hear us talk about the book. So a lot of the book tackles how difficult grief is to move through. And I did read in your acknowledgments that you worked with a grief psychologist on that. So what was that experience? like. So I really wasn't expecting to write about grief, but when I had to give Molly enough of a backstory that people would believe that she had walked away from her life, it was really interesting actually because for me it was enough that these things had happened. Her son was, you know, dismissive of her and she, before I gave her a child who had died, just her son was dismissive. She

was distant from her daughter. She thought her husband was having an affair, overwhelmed, feeling like her life was worthless. And to me, that was enough. But, you know, I can see that. Yeah. But, you know, in working with my editor, you know, we try to make sure that you appeal to the broadest audience. And so we went back and forth on what we need to make this believable. Because if you don't, if you don't buy into Molly's story, it's very hard to buy into the rest of the book. So I started with, okay, I'm going to do something terrible.

And as a mother, it was very hard to do. But I gave her a child who died accidentally. And then I was writing it, writing, writing, writing, writing. And then I thought, is that enough? Is that going to be enough? Well, everybody, like, so then I gave her guilt on top of it of having been involved in the accident that caused the death. So now I had a book that was not just dealing with, you know, a kidnapping and a search and all of that.

I was dealing with guilt and grief. And so I had to start doing research into all of that. That's how those elements came to be in the book. And the research was really interesting because when what I realized was that a lot of getting through, especially the guilt part is acceptance and when it's guilt, it's forgiveness. So with grief, there's, you know, ultimately you want to get to a point of acceptance and being able to find joy again in life and accepting. So, you know, you go through anger, you go through denial and anger and all of these stages

until you get to acceptance and then finally sort of resumed. some normalcy in life. Right. With the guilt part, though, a key component is feeling that you have made amends in a way. And with this situation, because she didn't do anything that was criminal or even negligent, it was, but she feels responsible. And so she never felt that she was adequately, adequately punished. And the same thing with Nicole.

That's why they weren't able to really move through the guild part of their loss. Yeah. And now when she's imprisoned and she's going through this horrible thing, she's starting to feel like she's being punished. And what she's going through in a way allows her to push through that final stage and to also realize that what is left at home, her family, is worth fighting for. And worth pushing through all of this pain to save

and that there's still joy to be found there. And I think Nicole, her daughter, goes through the same process. And so it really dovetailed us. I was researching it. I realized that my plot was dovetailing with it. So then I just wrote into that, that sort of connection between what was happening in the plot

and the stages of, that they had to be going through. Yeah. So why it probably was hard for her to make amends is she's like also trying to decide how much control she actually had over the situation. And so one of my favorite quotes was actually about the blame that she was feeling. And it said if there was fault, then there could also be prevention, the illusion of control to make life bearable.

I thought that was so powerful that like also kind of why you want to blame yourself is because you want to think that there's control in life and that there's just not and I am quite they can I'm not I won't say I'm a control freak anymore I have gone through a lot of therapy so I've worked on it but definitely lived life for a long time thinking like I need to get control of everything and if I like work hard enough I can get control of everything so is not like your relationship? with control or was that just like where you just kind of was that coming from like working with a psychologist or where is that from so i i too am a control freak i a hundred percent i try to you know let go of some of it but i don't do a very good job of that and i actually just this year i actually in i was thinking really hard about like new year's resolutions and all of that and um trying to do a social posts. I ended up not doing any new year's social posts because I really couldn't come up with anything. And then I thought, you know what, what if I just try this year accepting who I am? Because I'm 54 years old and I've been trying to wrangle my

control issues and, you know, for many of those years. And like you, with therapy and with all sorts of techniques and with, you know, just talking myself off cliffs and, and, um, you know, the reality is that at the end of the day, we have very little control over, over life, because we are all, I mean, this is very morbid, but we are all, you know, marching towards death. I mean, just we are. It's reality. And so we try to control it the best we can. Some people are better than others at blocking it out and being in the moment.

But it is, I mean, there are so many books on mindfulness and being present. and spirituality provides a lot of relief for that. And so I, yes, it was very easy for me to get inside of Molly's head on that subject. And also I was thinking about how to sort of walk the line of having Molly be responsible for this accident or being involved in this accident

that caused her daughter's death. without people hating her. Because I think that most of the time when we read about a child dying while in the care of a parent, we immediately, it's human nature, we immediately look for all of the things that that parent did wrong, that we know we don't do or we think we don't do, so that we can distinguish ourselves from that situation. and peace with the fact that that will never happen to our child. Because, you know, like a swimming pool accident or a bicycle accident with no helmet,

well, I would always make my child wear a helmet. I would always watch my child in the swing pool and I would always do these things. So I really was concerned that people would do that with Molly and then detach from her. Right. And I didn't want, I wanted people to be in her shoes and have empathy for her and not detached from her. Right. So I thought, well, how. how am I going to walk this fine line of giving her these circumstances where she was driving this car that

accidentally hit her child without people blaming her? And so I wrote in passages like that where just I leaned into it and I wrote what people might be thinking. And then I tried to analyze why we think it. And that's why we want to have the illusion of control. so we we come up with a set of facts that will distinguish us from situations that were out of control. Yeah, that is, I relate to all of that, including when you were talking about how you didn't really do like New Year's resolutions this year. I have gotten to a point where like, I, because I had stuff to work through pretty early in my adulthood, I also.

I'm a child of two narcissists. So there's a lot of stuff to deal with. Yeah. So there was a lot of like work I needed to do to be able to function as like a healthy adult. So I did a lot of that. But one, some of the narcissistic abuse and then two, some of like going right into therapy when you're like younger is you can kind of get caught up in the idea of

perfectionism and self-improvement, like getting so into self-improvement that like really you've just decided that you're never going to like yourself. So that was something this year where I had just heard someone on a podcast talking about how she's done with self-improvement. And she wants to actually just work on self-acceptance and like listening to what she actually needs. And I was like, well, that's my New Year's resolution now too. Like, I guess I'm done with self-ablish.

I have to find out what podcast that was because that is exactly, those are the exact words that I had in my head. I'm done with self-improvement. and I want to work on self-acceptance. And then I thought, I want to put that in a social media post because it sounds very, I don't know. On social media, it could sound.

Yeah, yeah, you can't really explain it. But that's exact, those are the exact words that I had going into this year was, you know what, I'm just going to try self-acceptance. Yeah. These are my, these are my things. These are my hang-ups.

These are my, you know, rough around the edges. parts and I'm what if I just accept them instead of trying to change them or get mad at myself for them and then protect myself from those situations yeah and not put myself in those situations where I know that I'm going to feel bad and stressed out and then get mad at myself for feeling stressed out yes I do the same thing no into those situations anymore yes And then you're like, oh, I should have learned better. Like, how am I still learning the same problem? And it's like, it's okay. You're going to have stuff your whole life long. Right. Yeah. So this is my year to say no to things that I am pretty sure are going to make me uncomfortable and then feel bad about being uncomfortable. Yes. That's, I'm doing a pretty similar thing this year where my, if I was going to say I had a resolution, my resolution is that in December. of this year, I want to feel like it's been a really long time since I felt rushed. And like, the big thing that I have to do to get there is say no to things that I'm not going to like actually

enjoy and then I'm busy and then I'm rushing and then I'm like, how did a month just go by? So that's, that's what I'm aiming for to right now. Good. No, I think that's great. I think that's really great. And that's sort of exactly where I'm at too. I'm very, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's take back in in December and see how we did. We do.

We do. So some of like that, some of the work that you kind of have to do internally is even just facing your feelings instead of hiding from them. And you kind of brought up the amends earlier. But there is a point where Molly's like. like actually literally like completely in the dark locked up somewhere in the house. And she kind of like can't run from anything. Like there's no distractions.

There's nothing. So she kind of has to like, I can't be terrible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're going to eat the stuff. I think that's why a lot of people don't always want to meditate is like a lot of it is just having to sit there with your actual feelings and not like have your phone to look at or whatever distraction.

And so she's kind of having to face the full brunt of the grief and the guilt. And she kind of mentions in the suffering, I make amends. And the amends bring a kind of healing. And so you were kind of mentioning that as like it finally felt like her punishment. But did you kind of like work with the psychologist on that idea? Or did you just kind of like intuitively know that like you've got to face your feelings to move past them? Yeah, it was interesting when I, you know, sometimes you're just writing.

And so, you know, and I was in her head writing her in first person. And I had, you know, learned about these stages of grief and how feeling that you've made amends or, you know, that there's been some sort of punishment is the wrong word. But, you know, even in AA, for example, you know, one of the steps is to, is to, make amends with the people that you feel you've hurt with your um with your illness and behavior and so I it's a huge part of being able to move on yeah from and so um it was just when I had her you know in those situations it just I was like this is perfect like this is just the perfect sort of you know dovetailing of um of a plot and the psychology that I'm trying to

explore yeah for sure um so alice is she's she's frightening but it's also really hard to completely dislike her since she's just a kid who's only known like a very abusive and sheltered life how did you get into the mind of a child that was stuck in such a toxic place so um i was a family law attorney and I worked with, I did a training program to be an advocate for children, and I saw a lot of families that were the children had been through trauma. And one of the most interesting things that I learned about was sociopathy or the sort of development of sociopathic illness.

Right. And without, you know, getting too detailed, it's, you know, it's a spruceopathy. spectrum and narcissism is on that spectrum and they actually used to call it Axis 2 and they distinguished it from Axis 1 illnesses which are chemical chemical like bipolar and even anxiety depression schizophrenia and then there are access to they call the personality disorders they don't do that anymore because there's so much comorbidity between um between the illnesses um and so but the personality disorders are the one thing that they all have in common is a deficit of empathy yes and the debate of whether it's you're born that way or whether it is from early very early

childhood trauma or neglect like the first few years of your life which you have no memory of so this is why it's also so hard for for that debate to because they can't they can't identify a particular or gene that's different in people who suffer from these conditions. And they often don't have really good family history because the people who are abusing and neglecting these children are the only witnesses to that abuse or neglect. And they're not necessarily... They're not up to talk about it. They may not even have narcissistic parents.

They don't even know they have, they don't know that there's anything wrong with them. And they don't know that their behavior towards their children. is wrong. Right. Or damage. Right. And there's, I mean, when you're wrong is not the right word. Yeah. The right vocabulary, but they don't know that their behavior towards their children is damaging. Because they don't know there's anything wrong with their behavior in general.

Right. So, but what's fascinating, so when I was studying the illnesses, these illnesses and how they develop, this is what, it's so fascinating. But when you, when you don't have the empathy. hardwiring from the first years of your life or maybe you're born without it. But regardless, a child who doesn't have empathy skills has to build a playbook of how to behave to fit in. Because the children want to fit in. They don't want to not have friends. They don't want to feel different. They don't want to get in trouble at school or at home. And so, but they do start

to realize that they aren't necessarily having instant. instincts and impulses to act in a way that is similar to their peers. So the example I always think of is, you know, children's, you know, and maybe in kindergarten and they're out on the playground and somebody falls off the swing and gets hurt. Every child is going to have some reaction. Some are going to run for help. Some are going to stand frozen, crying, and fear. Some are going to run and help the child who fell.

But they're all going to react emotionally or empathically. They're going to have some empathy and they're going to do something or have a response. The sociopathic child who lacks empathy, hardwiring, lacks the ability to empathize, will have no reaction, but will observe the reaction of everyone else and know that there's something wrong with them, that they're different. And they will then just intuitively start to build a playbook. It's like if you go to a foreign country that you've never been to, And you think, oh, you know, in France, they don't do this.

They do that. And so you make a note, okay, I'm, you know, I want to fit in. So I'm going to, you know, do this and not that. Order this and not that. Eat my cheese after dinner, whatever it is. You assimilate. It's a new culture for sociopathic people when their children. It's all new to them because it's not innate.

And so they start building a playbook. And they will, and so while they're children, the playbook is not perfect. So sometimes they overdo it. Sometimes they don't do enough of it. And that's Alice. So Alice is this nine-year-old girl, and she is constantly having these reactions that are not within the range of sort of neurotypical behavior. Right. And Molly notices that and she's a teacher.

So she's not necessarily trained in, you know, sociopathic illness, but she knows enough to recognize that there's something damaged about Alice and she starts to observe her. So that's where Alice came from. And it was so much fun intellectually to write her and to write a character who was trying to behave according to actually just television shows because she didn't have access to real children. So she's trying to mimic what she sees on these shows that her father gives her on her little iPad and to be to sort of mimic actual, you know, like actual empathetic feelings. Yeah. Yeah. There were a couple times where you where she would kind of like do something to make Molly mad.

and Molly was kind of noticing, like, you would mention her literally getting an empathy fix. So, yeah, sometimes, and I was actually hearing about that on a podcast, too, where someone was talking about how, like, they read in a parenting book that sometimes if, like, their child actually just needs an emotional release, sometimes they'll ask for something they know they can't have so that they can, like, scream and cry about maybe something else even. Right. Yes. So that was really, go ahead. It was very interesting to write a child. Yeah. Going through something like that because the,

because things do come out sideways, right? And they're very emotionally complex. So just intellectually, I think it's interesting to think about. And it was very interesting to write her. Right. So part of Alice was somewhat an opportunity for Molly to also become, see how she could be a good mother. or another opportunity at mothering.

And the book kind of explores what the idea of being a good mother is. So at the beginning, Molly, kind of like you've even mentioned, really is convinced that maybe she's not a good mother because of the accident. But also she kind of mentions, like, knowing that she drove all the way to her son's game. And it wasn't necessarily for him. It was that, like, she wanted to feel good from it. And that makes her also doubt herself as a good mom.

And but then as time passes, like she is able to use being a teacher and actually having been a mom for a while as a way to connect to Alice. And at the end, Nicole even tells her, you don't even realize it, do you how good of a mother you are. So were you kind of planning to have an arc where like a second tragedy helped Molly see her goodness? Or did that kind of happen along the way? Yeah, I mean, I think once I started diving into the grief and the guilt and the arc of her passing through it, and I saw the opportunity to write that into the story, then that came along with it, because that was really what was, you know, at the vortex of all of her pain was feeling that she had failed her children. and one very dramatically obviously, but also the others.

And as a mother, I can relate to all of those feelings. You know, you constantly feel anything, you know, that is not perfect with your children is on you. At least I do. And we all make mistakes. I mean, you know, you think about, gosh, I mentioned this. I shouldn't have said that. I hope I didn't. You know, I'm always thinking about.

you know, the psychological damage I'm causing my kids just by having a conversation. Right. And so, but so it was easy to get into Molly's head and then imagine what she was feeling. But yes, that was definitely having her be with Alice and having that conflict, right? So she's, Alice is the same age that her daughter was when she died. So she is now with this child who literally holds the key to her ability to get out of this imprisonment, like knows where this key is and won't give it to her. And so she's, but she also, you know, she does understand it's just a child who's had, had

been raised in this horrible situation, doesn't even really know it, just knows her mother died. And her first mommy is dead. And, you know, it's just, so she has empathy for her, but, but also at times, you know, Actually, one of the, one of the most fun conflict scenes for me to write was when she poisons Mick. And then when, when Alice comes and realizes that, that Molly sort of tricked her and, you know, because the poison was in the coffee and not in the muffin. Right.

And so Alice, you know, is confused because he didn't eat the muffin. He drank the coffee. And now he's, you know, incapacitated for. a short period of time. And so Molly, you know, says to her, well, you know, he's going to know when he gets, when he sort of snaps out of it, he's going to know you gave him the coffee that you must have helped me. And it's so like for her to do that and really, you know, do something really emotionally

traumatizing to this child to make her get that key. And yet she knows that it's what's best for both of them. for everyone. For everyone. Yeah. That was sort of an interesting scene to write. And then the very last chapter with the dolls. And like when I wrote that last sentence, I hadn't been planning.

I'm like, I don't know where this is going. I'm like, okay, she's got to have the dolls. And I was like, I know exactly what to write. Right. Straightens the hair. I thought this is the perfect way to end this book. So, yeah, all of that. All of that.

I knew that that was sort of where it was going. but when I saw opportunities to to really, you know, dig deep into those issues of mothering and, and, you know, the complexities of our guilt and our emotions towards our children, I definitely took them. Yeah. The relationship was so complex. Like, I did love that that was, it was kind of cool that that was still what it ended

with, too, since, like, it was, like, the bulk of the book, it was her, like, the part we're seeing is her interaction. her and it's it like kind of what I mentioned just at the beginning like it's hard to dislike her because she's a kid but then there were things she would do where you're like are you kidding me like please like you need to help me so I loved that kind of like I don't think any of her family members probably understood why Molly still cared about her but Nicole specifically is like I don't get why you even want to see her but it's also like she's the only one who went through that experience with Molly too.

So it's kind of like there's that uniqueness going on as well. But I thought it was like the perfect way to end it too. Well, thank you. You're welcome. So obviously we've discussed like Molly gets, she does get captured and taken somewhere. And Mick is the guy. That's what she starts calling him. She never really knows his whole name.

But Mick is who basically kind of took her with Alice. And so obviously at the beginning, she's like really hoping that her family's going to find her. And then it gets to a point where he basically reveals to her that he knows where Nicole is and that he is going after Nicole. And he but he also let's basically slides in an article under so that she can see that her family isn't looking for her anymore. And so she thinks or when you write it, I'm just going to say it's her thinking it. She says like, it's as though some bizarre twist of irony. My prayer has been answered the prayer that they just let me go. So it's kind of like the first moment where she actually is saying don't look for me,

which like since Mick writes the letter, it fakes the letter from her saying don't look for me. It wasn't her actual intention. but we kind of get to a point where all of a sudden she is like, don't look for me. So were you thinking about that through line in titling the book? Or did you kind of add that in? Like, how did that work out? So originally there was no title for the book. I didn't have a title.

But she did have this thought of walking away. And when we came up with the title, Don't Look for Me. I actually had to go back and write in. to the letter, don't look for me, and added in a couple more places so the title, you know, tied in a stronger way.

And the theme was always the same, that the reason she's walking away from her car into a storm and gets trapped and then has to take the ride from, you know, from Reyes or Mick and gets kidnapped is that was always there.

And then that scene, though, when I was, I think that was sort of just, you know, came to me when I was writing that scene. And I knew he was going to take her to the room. And then, you know, I always plot pretty meticulously. But some of the plot I leave open, like, okay, she's in, you know, she's in the room for X number of days. And he brings her food.

And then she tries to escape with the blanket. And, you know, I had all these things were definitely, I didn't have every single moment. And so, you know, I'd come to a chap and think, okay, what's going to happen? in this chapter. I need to write a chapter where she's in the room and he does something or says something that really is scary. And so I thought, okay, well, I'll have him bring her an article so she knows no one's looking for her and it adds to her despair. And then I'll have Alice come and say something really, you know, sort of not meaning to be cool, cruel and was just demonstrating her complete lack of empathy for Molly and her situation. And,

that's what I ended up coming up with was the article. And then I thought, well, this is a great place to it circled back to the fact that this is what she had wanted to begin with. And isn't it interesting that now she's fighting to get free and get back to her family? Yeah. So yeah, it was sort of, something's come to me. You know, it's when you're in the writing every day and it's just in your brain and it's all, you know, things sort of bubble up and you're like, oh, cool. That that works. Right. So. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I had it like highlighted. I was like, wait a second. Now she actually doesn't want them to look for her. There's also a theme or a pattern of how the wounded parts of ourselves can sometimes be useful. So when Molly's thinking about Nicole and like the

way she kind of like goes through men and moves on to different men, she realizes it might be what makes her drop Mick or Reyes, whatever Nicole sees him as, and it could keep her safe. And so Molly's like, I thought it would kill her this behavior, but now I think it might have just saved her. And then at the end, Molly's reflecting on how her family has come back together after a second tragedy. And so she's even wondering, do I owe this to Jared Reyes, to the horrible things he did to our family? and it's it's so powerful thinking that even some of the wounding things that happen to us can be redemptive and that good can come from that pain. Was that perspective you were like trying to incorporate or were you kind of just like realizing as you were writing it that like oh and this actually was useful for her? Yeah, I mean I knew that Nicole's what Nicole had.

been through was going to give her resilience and give her a fight, a fight that, you know, someone else might not have because she needed to find her mother to heal, but also this feeling of nothing to lose, like so tired of the pain. Like her pain tolerance, her emotional pain intolerance is so high that when she's given this opportunity to do something about it and to fight, to fight it. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like what shadow boxing, right? When you have emotional pain, there's nothing, there's nothing to punch at. There's nothing to grab hold of. There's nothing, you know, to move out of your path, to shovel, to, you know, to chop away. It's just, it's just, you know, it's just a shadow.

And so I think emotional pain is so difficult to, to grapple with. It is. Right. So she's been fighting this for so many years. And now there's a tangible enemy. There's something for her to fight. So that was always going to be part of, you know, her personality. But then, you know, some of the things.

that I end up writing. Like I didn't expect to write that particular passage where Molly notices that, hey, wait a minute, this could save her. The fact that she's, you know, she's been through so much pain that she actually can't form normal attachments to men and that she's going to get sick of him and, you know, and push him away. And that might save her life. That just sort of came to me, you know, in the moment when I was writing.

writing, you know, again, I'm in her head. I'm like, what could she be thinking? What is she thinking right now? And my outline just says, you know, Molly's, Molly's, you know, whatever, discovers that Nicole is involved with Reyes and, you know, what happens. And but then when I go to write it and I'm in her head and I'm writing her thoughts while I'm fleshing out what's in my outline, yeah, these things will sort of come to me. Oh, I can tie it back. And maybe she'll have that thought and then I can tie it back and that's sort of a cool observation that she might have. And those are the things that come like in the moment and it's always fun when they do. They don't always come. Right. When they do. Yeah. I thought it was very like empowering to have a

perspective that was like maybe we don't have to judge all of the wounded parts of ourselves. Kind of back to the conversation about self-improvement. Actually, when I was reading it, I was like, oh yeah like I don't need to be so obsessed with getting rid of like any wound or any like negative thing because you you not everything's always negative and sometimes you still can't have good things come from really bad things yeah yeah and I think you know I think that that's a theme in all of my books is that the um it's trauma and and people who go through trauma have different skills and they have pain and they suffer from it and but they also have different skills and they they and those skills can be useful and they can bring even greater joy and insightfulness and you know

the thing with you know with reyes and her sort of observing that this tragedy may have actually saved them was again like an in the moment thought but I think it's it is a um trauma is you know nobody wants to have trauma but it it can make people stronger and it can have these you know these um bring people together in ways that they may not have been brought together before that's that's that was exactly what it was making me think about is like sometimes we don't really connect on i mean we do connect on our positive experiences but the way you really have like a deeper bond with someone is by going through something tough, whether you would call it trial or not, it is what kind of makes us all feel closer to each other even.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it felt like, yeah, Bruce has something to say. He agrees with me, but it did. It felt like that was kind of really like the whole arc of the book is kind of like what I left with. And very much, like the idea of literal. everything that a loving mother will do to get back to her family was definitely like the other biggest takeaway for me. Yeah. It's, I mean, that that is, to me, that's, that is,

um, just, you know, the driving force of the book is that, you know, for many people, having, you know, a child, there's nothing you wouldn't do for your child. And that its life is not tolerable if there's, you know, they always say you're only as happy as you're least happy child. That's what it's in mind me of, yeah. It's so true. And I have three of them. So I'm like, my odds are just so bad.

Because someone's going through something. Oh, my gosh. I didn't even think of that with that many. terrible, but something, you know, like some problem and issue. Yeah. Well, it very much came through how much, like, you would do that. I remember reading in the acknowledgment, so you said it was a little emotional thinking about it in terms of your own kids. But that, like, very much came through. I don't think someone could have written that book if they didn't feel that way about their kids, too. So I did love that. It was just great. You are so welcome. Thank you for talking about the book. And where should people follow you or find you, like, plug what you want to plug? Yeah. So my website, wendy walkerbooks.com.

And I'm on all this social media sites, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and even TikTok. Nice. I'm still trying to find some content that's not completely lame. Yeah. But I'm there. And all of my books are there. And they're on Amazon and Google. And you can find them pretty much everywhere in all formats.

you know, ebooks, audio, print. Don't look for me. Just came out in paperback in December. Nice. So you can now get it in paperback. And then I have two audible originals that are just available on

audible. And those are ones in novella. Hold Your Breath and American Girl, which just came out. And that one is, yeah, that one is a full-length novel. Nice. Well, you will have some more content that you can use on TikTok from this interview.

So hopefully we can throw someone out on there. But everything will be in the show notes, everything you just talked about. So if anyone does want to go, learn more about Wendy, find more of her books, just look in the show notes for everything she just mentioned. And thanks for listening.