Bookwild - White Lotus Finale Predictions and Writing Catchup with Halley

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

If you're listening to these episodes as their air, you're getting what was going to be April 8ths Tuesday episode today, because Halley Sutton and I HAD to talk White Lotus Spoilers and finale predictions!If you want to skip White Lotus spoilers (through Season 3 Episode 7) you can listen to the first few minutes, and when I say skip to this timestamp if you don't want spoilers, skip ahead to 31:02. *Yes, there were 25 mins worth of White Lotus to talk about, and really, we could've probably done 90 minutes on it.Then, we talk about how the setting you are in can influence your writing, and Halley shares some great insight from her friend's book Pen on Fire, about how to fit any amount of writing into your busy life.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I came back with Hallie Sutton. Woohoo. It's been a little bit, just a little bit. Not a lot, just a little bit. Yeah, I know. I guess I was about to ask how you are, and then I realized I kind of already asked you that before we started recording.

But I guess our version of how are you typically, like, have you watched or read anything recently? Yeah, totally. That is, I'm doing well. Thank you. I hope you are too. We did touch base about that.

like, you know, full disclosure for the people listening. We do chat before we stay. Yeah. I know it's wild. So, okay, what I've been watching is I was watching the traders. All that was going on. My first time I've ever done that. And Gabby, Wendy for president, obviously.

But also, like, now I just want to go play games in Scotland. Like, that sounds great. Did you watch it? No, I still haven't seen it. I watched a lot of clips about it. So I feel like I halfway watched it. But what was I going to say? Oh, Gare told me that he heard a rumor that NeNe Leaks is going to be on the next one.

So now I really want to go play games in Scotland. Yeah, yeah. It's really, I don't, I find it very fun and like weirdly wholesome. I watched the other season, but I didn't put this one in. Totally. I highly recommend it. So I am not like a huge Bravo fan. I have been at times in my life.

I've watched more, but I'm not really watching anything now. But like everyone, I did catch word about Scandival. What happened? Even though I've like never watched that show and like read obsessive coverage about it. And he was on there. And I will say he makes the show because he is such a buffoon and doesn't know it and just has all these like crazy moments. Like there he'll just be having a conversation or somebody will be having a conversation. and you'll see him in the corner just like

geeking out and it's so funny. And so I really enjoyed that. And there's one episode where they have to like sing lullabies backwards into like these creepy dolls sing these lullabies

backwards and they have to like sing it into a phone to people on the other end who will then translate it into a thing which will sing it forward so they're trying to see what it is. And he takes it with the seriousness that he might have a Grammy on the line. And I have, this year is an absolute dumpster fire for American. I watch that clip when I need a little joy in my life. And he's just like, I caught myself singing it the other day as I was making dinner. I was just like,

about yod, yod, yod, which is like what he does. And I was like, uh-oh, we've been watching it a little too much. You've got to keep your pockets of joy. When do you find them? You really do. Unfortunately, Tom Cainville was made for reality TV. It's just the truth of it. Totally.

And this is like I almost feel like it's rehabilitated him in some way because it's like everybody is making so much fun of him. Not that you feel sorry for him, but it's like so cathartic to watch him just be like so the butt of jokes. And like the whole time he's like, I'm really good at this. And everybody's like, no, you're not. No, no man. Oh my gosh. I know the clips of, I can't even remember his band's name anymore. But when he even like is on stage and you're just like, you do think you sound fantastic. Oh, he thinks he's the main character of every story ever. Yeah. Like it, I was about to say how much easier would life be, but like actually it got him in this situation.

So maybe it doesn't make life any easier. Yeah, maybe not. But it's pretty great. So there's that. And then I am also watching The White Lotus, as I believe you are too. And I would love to hear your thoughts about it. Yeah. Are you up to episode seven?

I am up to episode seven. Yeah. Cool. So if anyone doesn't want to hear it. hear about White Lotus at all, I'll put a timestamp in. And then you guys can know where to skip from here. So, um, we're going to get out of it. Yeah, exactly. And I know a lot of people are watching. So I feel like it's like fair to talk about it at this point. Um, uh, so many things. Um, I love how Mike White is like, yeah, I'm going to use pretty much the same concept every season.

but it's still going to be endlessly interesting. And so the other thing I've thought was so kind of apparent during this season, too, like you can feel that that guy watched a lot of housewives, like the triangle friendship going on. Like you feel like you're watching a like when Renna, where was that, was like throwing the glass or throwing wine out of a glass? I can't remember. But it has those vibes.

So you can feel that he watches housewives. lives because in some ways it feels like it feels like reality tv too just in how voyeuristic the like storytelling type is like we're just like hanging out with these people who can't handle like hanging out with themselves essentially which i think it's like actually like one of the huge like thematic pieces this season which is sort of like anywhere you go there you are like you know you can come to the white lotus but you're not escaping who you are and here Lockwood is a weirdo. And I, yeah, I'm loving it.

And I totally agree. He does, like, use the same premise and setup. I would say this is actually my favorite season, though, so far. But, like, at some point, you have to be like, is the White Lotus going to be investigated by, like, the FTC or something for, like, there's a lot of deaths that happen on these properties. We need to look into this a little bit. Like, next season should be, like, a journalist being like,

what the fuck is going on at the white lotus is like there's so many dead people here you're right they really could introduce that element yeah it's like i like that idea um put us in the writer the dad i'm like i mean that i'm impressed with like how dark they are go or not well it is dark but like the societal ideation the way they're representing that is like it seems both like really empathetic to people who experience that. But it's like also you're like, oh my God, he's thinking about doing this. Totally. And like I feel like in particular the last episode. So I feel like he's been like we're all kind of like, is he going to kill himself? Like I don't know that he, even if he doesn't. Like maybe he lorazapams his way off of this mortal

coil. It's like that man is pilling and booze and like not sustainable. But the last episode was particularly interesting that ending where you really got the sense that it wasn't just suicide. It was like maybe he was going to like murder suicide his family and like was like legitimately heading in that direction. That was way darker. Like I know we'd had that fantasy about it the episode before, but this one felt like, no, like I think we're going to do it. And I was like, oh, yeah.

I know. And like I saw a meme the day after. It was like, Saxon. I'm going to tell my dad this. things I'm worried about and it's like and then it's like dad fine I'll kill you too and I was like oh which is like it's hilarious like in meme context but it is what happened I thought that was fascinating too yeah the how like Chelsea is talking to Saxon about like how like all this all those men have his money and like blah blah blah blah and like all of a sudden he was like

oh all I'm going to have his money Yeah. And so then he's having that conversation with his dad. He's like, this is all I have. Totally. Totally. His dad can't be honest with him. I know. I do like, it's hard to feel bad white man who has embezzled a lot of money because it's like, well, this is your chickens coming home to roost. I know. But the actor is so good. Jason Isaacs is so good in it that it really does make you feel empathetic, especially like as you point out like his family, which is kind of crazy that like they are so self-absorbed but like even his wife and Saxon, who I would argue are the two most self-absorbed parts of the family, notice like something's wrong with him and they like confront him about it and he still cannot be honest.

And like I, I liked Saxon's moment. I think I preferred the Parker Posey one where he was basically like, we'd be okay if we didn't have money right. And she was like, no, I wouldn't want to live. I'm just not made for an uncomfortable life. I was like, well, she knows herself, you know? Like, they're such as you admire about that, like, ruthless honesty. Right. She doesn't have the wrong impression of herself. She's like, I know who I am, and it's this, and it's only this.

Yes. That one was so funny because, like, also, like, don't we all wish we could just unabashedly say that, like, and mean it and think that it's possible? I am not made for an uncomfortable life. And in fact, I'll take an exit ramp, but that's where we're headed. Yes. I know in the line when she's like, I still can't find my Larazza Pam. I'm going to have to direct myself to sleep.

She just has so many one-liners. What was the other thing, though, that it was making me think of? Well, I mean, it has been interesting seeing that I think people feel more outraged by this incest. than they did with Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's true. Which to me, I interpret as it's the fact that it's gay incest, that there are more people who are mad about it is kind of, and I could be wrong.

I'm like, why are the reactions so much? Like, the internet's reaction feels very outsized compared to Game of Thrones. And I'm like, Game of Thrones could have did give birth to, like, defects because they were a man and a woman. No worries with brothers. It's not, I wouldn't recommend it, but there's less to worry about. Agreed. And I think you are right.

I think it is about the gay incest. And I think it's also about, I think you're right, though. I think it is probably most of the homophobia. I think there's also something about like Game of Thrones being in a fantasy world that we're like coding in medieval that I think people are like able to be like it's removed. And the fact that this could be like going on at like the Hill of Thrones. Hilton next to you, people are like more freaked out about. I'm like, hand job, shman job.

Like, listen, I'm not saying it's not incest and it's not bad and it's not going to make, it's not going to make holidays wicked hard for them, but a pun. But like, but I was also like, oh, I could have seen it going harder than that. So yes, I agree. I'm like, I don't know. I know. I know. I agree.

Yeah. He just loves the shock value too, obviously. But I mean, I feel like on another level, it also functions in how incestuous the wealthy people become anyway. Because it's like there's just a limited group of people that are worthy of them. 100%. I think it actually works in the story on many levels. I think you're totally right about that. And then I think there's also sort of like Parker Posey keeps like every time they meet somebody new,

she keeps being like, are they decent? And it's like so underlining the fact that like this family is actually like riddled with indecency in all these different ways. And like also I want to say, I feel like I'm not seeing as much coverage of it. But like last episode, Lachlin like locked eyes with Piper on that bed in a way that I was like, what the fuck is that? I was nervous. Yeah. I was nervous. I was like, oh no, we're going to do it again. I'm like I, this kid, we need to get this kid to therapy is something happening there. And he's. seems like the least likely to do some kind of sociopathic. I don't know what that is, actually. Yeah, I agree. It seems like he's like, he seems like he's bouncing between them in this interesting

way of like, like, I feel like his stuff with Saxon might be, I think he might be attracted to his brother, but I think he also like wants to supplant him, wants to beat him, has all this competition with him. And then I think he sees Piper maybe as like the good angel on the shoulder. And like like it like almost like he doesn't know how to be close to them in a way that or maybe it's just maybe his sexual orientation is incest. I don't know if that's a thing, but it probably is. I don't know. I don't either. Yeah. I saw I like that interpretation and I saw someone talking about like he's also codependent was what someone was pointing out. So it's like his brother's rejecting him now. now he's like, I just want to stay here with you.

And so he's, he like always needs someone to like hold on to or hold himself up with, I guess. Totally. I'm like not hold on to though, given, given everything. That's my point. That one functions best. Got a firm grip on his siblings. How about that? Is there some stick shift joke I can make now?

the way he's driving him. So the other thing though I saw this week that has been interesting to see people falling on different sides of it is that like the trio of women finally like are talking straight to each other a little bit. A little bit. I still wanted to come to more of a head. But yeah.

So I don't know why I, well, no, it's the binitril. This is why I'm not, like, formulating the question as quick as it's, like, moving through my mind. Some people feel like Jacqueline is in the right. How'd you feel like? So for me, when, what is her character's name on the show? It's not Carrie.

I know. Carrie, June. Yeah, I love Carrie. I love her. I've loved her character so far. But when she was like, so you did something shitty. and I'm the like lame one for being upset about it. And then they both just pile on her about like,

if you always choose the short stick, is it even like? Oh, well, blah, blah. Everyone can tell who I feel strongly about. But there's some people who like think that Jacqueline just read her to filth. And I'm like, I don't think so.

I feel like my interpretation is somewhere in the middle on that, where I actually like, my sympathies are much more with Lori than they are with Jacqueline, particularly because it feels like, she feels like the one that the other two look down on the most. And so that's me, like the character that I feel the most empathy for. And I'm also like, she was trying to like have a good time on vacation. And I do think it was shitty that her friend was pushing her towards this guy. And then the second she needs validation, she seduces him. I think that's shitty. But I think there's also, I think the part of the

brilliance to me of White Lotus is the way that he does show so many different facets to character. Like, I also, part of me feels bad for Jacqueline. It's hard to feel bad for a beautiful movie star, but I'm like, you're clearly in this marriage where her husband's not calling you. You have like such a deep, empty need at the center of you that you need this guy's attention. Like, I- She's an aging actress. I know. I know. She's in her 40s. Just kill her now. Like, put her out to after. She said that. I was like, oh, God. I know. And so, like, so I don't, I don't, like, outright hate her. And I do think that she's maybe not wrong in some of her assessment about Lori. But I'm like, but everything you're saying, you could turn to yourself, too. Like, I literally, like, that's how I feel

about these women who are in this kind of, like, toxic triangle. Um, who, like, my least favorite in many ways is, uh, I think her name's Kate, the one that the Trump in the quarter with the, like, the bob. Yes. So I will say it's a great episode when they're all partying and she's so like, I want to go to bed. I don't invite strange men back to the villa. I'm like,

that's me. I know. She's just like sitting there in her pajamas and the guys telling her his crazy life story and she's just like, I'm like, I've been this woman. Like I get it. Like I feel you a sister.

But I feel like they're all like I don't like her. I, so my interpretation is I think she did read her to filth a little bit. Like I think maybe some of what she's, said is accurate. But I'm like, but you should also be turning that lens back on yourself because they're probably to say about your behavior too. And so there's no like, and it is interesting to see the way that they all sort of like Kate aligns with her in that moment, but later she wants to feel morally superior. She started to remind like that's who it, that's what she's doing.

Like telling, telling Lori, probably knowing Lori would bring it up to Jacqueline and like she's just playing both sides and just sitting there. Totally. Totally. Totally. And then like, later being like, I feel sort of bad about how we behave. But I guess you don't, even though she like, you know, like, she's a woman who can't own her choices and who aligns with whoever she like sees as powerful in the moment and likes to talk shit. And you're right. It's like a total potter. Yeah. So my feeling is, I don't know. The one that I like the most is Lori for sure. And I'm like, let Lori live, you know. But I, but I think they all have different pieces to own in their like I agree. Yeah, because they were, they, it wasn't that any of them, what am I trying to say here?

They were actually able to like see each other clearly. Like they were mostly pointing something out. But like the one way, I feel the same with you. Like the issue there was like the sticking point for me is I was like, yeah, but Jackman was being a bitch. And it sounds like she does this a lot with the male attention. And like that is annoying. Like that's, it's not Carrie's far. Lori's fault that she did that. Totally. And to me it feels like one of those things. And it's part of, I think, a testament to like the great work that the actors are doing and the writers and everybody where I'm like, I'm convinced that like she's annoyed about this thing, but it's not

this thing. It's that this is what happens in their friendship, you know, like that it's not just Valentin because he's just some dude. It's that like, you primed me to want this thing. And then you took it for yourself. And like, you could get the sense of like a friendship lasting 30 years, how

often that must have happened. right right do we want to try to guess who's going to die yeah i want to hear who are your thoughts okay i'm really nervous for chelsea because of the things she's been saying all season i know and so i can't tell if it's one of those things where that is the like okay we were foreshadowing it purposefully or if it's a red herring that's like i'm so torn on all the things that he says so we even had the I saw this really cool breakdown in episode seven, if you're still listening, I'm sure you have watched episode seven at the end where Rick is like facing off with the guy that he thinks killed his dad, which I thought that was fascinating the way they handled that.

Even someone who loves a bloody revenge plot, I was like, that was interesting. Yeah. That he just couldn't do it. And it's kind of cool because it's actually kind of showing who he actually is in that moment. Totally. That he like he does the thing that Sam Rockwell talked about in a weird way in that monologue that was like the most perfect five minutes of television in my opinion, give him all the Emmys. But like that he basically steps out of the loop that he's been in, right? Like he's been in this like I'm not get revenge and he manages like side step it. Now I'm not

sure that that's not going to backfire on him in some way in the future. And I hope not. But I agree with you. I am very worried about our girl Chelsea. And she has like my feet. favorite on the show too. Yeah. At the end, so in that episode, one of the things she says to Saxon is like, I'm Hope and he's pain and we're waiting to see which one kills the, I don't know if she says kills, but like overtakes the other or like which one, whatever. And that has been at the core of the show so that I'm so nervous that like pain is

going to be what they end up with. And she keeps talking about how bad things happen in threes. And I'm like, and something that I saw on Instagram today that I hadn't picked up on at all. But so she's involved first in the robbery. And one of the things they steal is a snake like bangle, right, that she's like looking at. And then she's bitten by the snake. And that almost killed her.

And then Alexi has a snake tattoo. And I do deeply believe that like the, I think it's like to me it feels very clear that like I mean we got that reveal in the last episode but I've been like for sure it's like Valentin and his friends who are the people behind the robbery and it makes me wonder if that's where this is going with like a show down with like Guy Talk or something and if she's caught in like the friendly fire because like that would be the third snake that attacks her I don't know yeah oh I know I'm she's who I'm the most nervous about I think like it's it's what feels like it's going there i really hope it's not belinda that's like another one

i hope it's not belinda too please don't kill belinda for me i know i know oh my god i also saw the ticot comment that took me out it was like uh you know the recessions bad when someone offers 100 000 in blackmail and me who doesn't have 100 000 is like that's like no money like we're gonna need to up that yeah yes i was like that it's not going to start business. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I know. She's okay. I've also heard. I've also saw a very interesting theory and I've been wondering about those damn fruit plants that are literally called, which I remember that they were poisonous. I forgot that in the first episode, they're called the suicide plant. Uh-huh. So it's like there's all kinds and there's that blender that they keep showing Saxon

using and it's like I've seen some people saying like the gunshots that we hear could also that could be a red herring and maybe don't even die from whatever is happening with the gun and like what is what is he's about to kill his whole family? I mean he might be I do have a theory that ties into that a little bit so I don't remember where I heard this it might have been TikTok or it might have been a friend who saw it on TikTok but like we know that Mike White likes to And I think this is such a cool, like this actually really ties into like writerly craft. I think that she really like just eye in all these foreshadowing things. Like evidently last season, if you were paying close attention to Tanya's dresses,

there were like pieces there that foreshadowed like how she would die. Yeah. In the tapestries. Yeah. So if you watch the tapestry openings, when the person's name comes up, whatever you're seeing on the tapestry tells you something about the character or their fate. So my thing that I've picked up. from there is Lockland is underwater

in the opening, the actor who plays Lockland. And we keep hearing that the water, there's the tsunami, which is dangerous. We found a body in the water in the beginning. And then also when Jason Isaacs goes to and speaks to the monk, and he says,

what happens when we die basically says like we return to the wave, we return to the water. And like it's like humanity is like we're all individual droplets and moving. The droplets that are rising and like falling. Exactly. And so I, Also, my pet theory is Sacks. I'm sorry, not Sacks.

And Lachlan somehow is a victim. And it could be of the suicide blender. It could be, who knows? But I think that that's my, I'm more worried about Chelsea because they, like, positioned her so hard. Basically, they, like, have a, like, target on her back. And I, like, her the most. Yes.

But I do think that if Lachlan winds up dead, I'll be like, yep. Yeah, you should be proud of that one. That's a good one. I like that. That's amazing. Did you watch Severance? I have not. Okay.

I didn't think so. Okay. That finale was something else. Okay. I got a lot. Finallies are just so fun and all the speculating really is fun. It's made me enjoy. It's made me watch things weekly again, which is so fascinating because I used to just absolutely not.

Totally. Because I like, I like similar to a book that I can just. go through the story and like feel all the beats the way like it in a purest sense it like it feels like you feel the beats the way that they're supposed to uninterrupted especially commercials i don't know the last time i watched anything with commercials but there is nothing that enrages me more than being deep in a moment and then really fucking bright loud advertisements like break the whole flow anyway i'm getting worked up. I love it. This has made me enjoy watching it weekly of severance and White Lotus this time around. And I think it kind of, that what I started to realize, I think because you can have

so many conversations or just watch people have conversations online, I feel like it keeps the story fresh in your mind throughout the week. So it's kind of like still there, whereas like it used to be like you weren't like talking on forums. You just had to wait a week. Totally. I agree. And I I think to that point, too, like what you were just saying of like, like, thinking about storytelling in different units and like a book is like a full unit through, but then there's chapters within it, obviously. Why am I lady explaining books? We're all, we know what's up here. But like the, I think the thing that White Lotus does, and I'm sure Severance does too, is like they, they're, those episodes could be bingeable, but they are so like self-contained arcs even within

the episode, even as they speak to these larger things. Like, it does feel like, its own discrete unit of storytelling. And I think they do a really good job of like making those episodes feel like that. And I think that's why it's also satisfying to watch it once a week because like there is satisfaction. Like even in the like the waiting to get to the like next episode like what's going to happen next? You know, like it's so good. Yeah.

I totally agree. And it was especially I remember noticing that I agree obviously overall. But I think episode five is the move. moon party or whatever is the party episode. I were being so impressed the way that just like, and the colors, like the lighting was so distinct, like red and green or blue and yellow.

Like the vibes were so distinct everywhere they were going. And just like everyone's stories, like getting more intense in a party atmosphere. I was like, that was very cool. I agree. I think that's been my favorite episode of the season so far. That was all the one that had the.

Sam Rockwell monologue, right? Like, I cannot always state how much I loved that. It was fantastic. And Walt was just like, I know, just like, we listen and we don't. He's just trying to be very accepting, but like, wow. There's no, hey,

how are you? How are you doing? I was like seeing everyone use that too. Totally. Totally. Just like, okay I asked if we're not drinking anymore now we're here okay but I also love to like it was so I mean it was so crazy and hedonistic but so thoughtful like he had like come all he'd like gone so far into his desire that he'd come out the other side like that was incredible it is it's an impressive amount of self-reflection yeah not many men have in their lifetime oh I know. It's fascinating. It is fascinating. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Book Wild, but I would love to do it without having to have ads in the podcast. And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means,

exclusive content or early releases. The Book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early. And you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book related or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the Book Wilde tier. And it includes everything from the first tier, but also Book Wild's Backlist Book Club. So this year I've been wanting to also still read more backlist, even though I read plenty of arcs. And Book Wild's Backlist Book Club felt like the perfect way to do that. We meet on Sundays. We are international right now. So Sundays are the best way to do it. And we meet on Zoom, and we all pick a book and we talk about it. And then we talk about everything else we read during the month.

And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far. And we'd love to have you join the book club. So if you'd like to support the Book Wild podcast, you can go to the Patreon link in the show notes. And you can sign up for whichever tier interests you. And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. What are you? Have you read anything good lately?

And also, where are you with your creative projects? But I guess those are questions. So a lot of last month was spent editing a lot of stuff that we did with Ashley Winstead. So that was mostly my creative project for March, just because there was so much of it. And all the other work that happens as well outside of it. But that stuff was very fun. It was very cool. I've wanted to do a like celebrity press tour type video package.

with an author, well, for a while. But we probably started talking about it seriously around October, no, around September of last year. So it was really cool to like just be thinking about it in September and then like have this happen. So that part has been amazing. But I also, we've talked about this already. But I also, in like February, also when I kept getting sick, I missed like a couple Tuesday author episodes. And I was like, okay, I'll fit it in with something else. And we were going to talk about writing more frequently. I forgot that I said yes to so many interviews in March. So there have been a lot of interviews coming out in March as well. So those are the main book wild things that have been happening. But I also, I also.

also has to upgrade my laptop here recently, so I was having to take, I used Scrivener. So I needed to like, like back it up like six or seven different times before I took my computer in. And so I was like reading through some of it and was really interesting, which like I shouldn't act like it's like shocking. But like I actually most of the time when I read my stuff, I'm actually like, oh. Oh yeah, I can write. like that's actually normally how it makes me feel and I'm like well that's kind of nice that like in most cases when I read it I'm not like oh this is terrible and I kind of expected I would be but I was like obsessively looking through everything to make sure it all transferred and I was like

oh yeah this is really good too it's just trying to say everything yeah yeah so better feeling to come back to than the opposite I know I was like well I was kind of nice. So I just need, well, I got a better system already. I just need a better system for visualizing way into the future in one place. Yeah. And I'm just going to try not to book two episodes on certain days. Or I just try to actually just do one each. But then to your question if I've read anything recently that I loved. I loved the manner of dreams by Christina Lee. It was so good. It is one of the best ways I can comp it, which was crazy because I never thought I would comp these two together ever. It's like, if did you hear about Kitty Car and

no road home, like came together and had a baby, it's like that book. So you have, it's like, multi-generational, you have like a Chinese immigrant, Vivian, who basically moved to America, I think in her 20s in 1960, I think is kind of where her other timeline starts. Basically, but she's passed away and she gives away the house that she like raised her family in to someone not in the family. And so they're like, why did this just happen? Her two daughters are trying to figure out why this happened. And then we're also getting the story of like how she created the life for herself as an immigrant.

So there's so many elements to it. And then there's the horror, gothic horror of it all. Like it's this big old mansion that has like come from bad months. money or dirty money. I don't think that's like really giving anything away to say that part. And so then there's some like crazy horror elements like the sisters and the person she gave. I'm being vague so I don't explain anything that you would find out as you read. The sisters and the woman that she wrote the will to give the house to this other woman. They are going to stay in a house for a week.

And if the sisters can prove that she did something nefarious, then she was, will leave and if not they will leave and then they all start experiencing gothic horror type shit they won't even go into and it is fantastic so i was obsessed with that one it comes out on april 6th and i have it was in april 20th and i have two interviews coming out that day which i know i don't have to have it come out on the debut but it was just so funny having me be like okay I'm going to chill out about this. And then I read this book that I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, oh my God, but I want to talk to her too.

Oh, my God. How exciting. That book has been, I remember when it was announced. Because I don't, I don't remember exactly how they phrased it, but there were a bunch of buzzwords where it was like, Hollywood actress, Gothic mansion, immigrant, like, all this stuff that I was like, I want, that I want. I want to write this. Yeah.

I've seen in their write-ups, they say Evelyn Hugo and Mexican Gothic. So I just sometimes don't use Evelyn Hugo because like the expectations are so unique. Even when you're just like saying like it's a it's it spans decades and it's about an ambitious woman in Hollywood. Like that's kind of what we're saying. Right. But yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

How about you? How has it been called? So yeah, I have some things I'll share about writing. And I also want to plug a book, which I don't think I've talked to you about before. But if I have, I'm sorry, but it's so good I have to plug it. It's called History Lessons by Zoe B. Walbrook. And it's coming out in July. And it is like dark academia mystery.

But it's like it's very gritty and dark. But it also has this like the real magic of the book, which is the story of this woman who her colleague is murdered on campus and he basically sends her a text right before like like minutes before he's murdered with a clue but that she doesn't understand until she finds out he's been murdered. And she's also like, we're not close. We're not friends. Why would he send this to me? And it like goes into this unraveling and it tackles like prison abolitionism and like sexual

assault on campus and the way that like people can get away with things. And like it's it's and all of that is to. say that makes it sound really like dark and heavy and it's so not it is so like she creates this like effervescent world that her character Daphne lives in where she's like this academic and she studies French literature and she like lives part of the time in France and she's got these great friends it was just like the most beautiful hopeful thing that I read that also like didn't look away from some of like the horrors of America that are happening right now but like made me feel like happy to be living in this world that she had created.

It is like I hope this book gets like all the accolades it deserves because I thought it was really great and I cannot wait to read more by her. Oh, that sounds very unique, unique and fun. Yeah. I do love some genre mashup. Yeah. And it's like it was like it's got to like all the things you would like about a cozy mystery, but it's actually like much grittier than that.

And I have not seen anyone pull off that combo the way that she is. It's really, really well done. That's awesome. Yeah. So that's something I read. Yeah. Yeah. And then, I'm sorry.

Sorry, go ahead. No, no. I was going to say, and then with writing, I know you took a writing trip. I did. So, yes. So I am working on a new project. I think I told you that. I had set my book down that I'd been working on for like a year and a half.

because I just was not finding a way in, and I also pitched it to my agent. She was like, I don't know about that, which is not the reaction you want about somebody who's going to be. To release it. Right. But, like, truly, if I had felt like it was the right book, I wouldn't have stopped writing it. But, like, I would have been like, all right, Sharon, you're wrong. Let me show you. And instead, I was like, yeah, I don't know.

So I'm working on something new that is early to give, like, full. details about but I'm calling it like the John Bonnet Ramsey mystery meets we have always lived in the castle which is like one of my all-time favorites very like gothic um and there's going to be a POV from like a life-size doll that looks like the little dead girl who has like yeah thank you who has now assumed she's basically like almost like a deity in the household like she's like they do everything for her and all the stuff um so I have had a crazy like you I've had a crazy busy spring past Halley wrote future Hallie a lot of obligations that current Hallie is now having to cash which is all been all good to say good but just not as

much time for like writing and even reading as I would want but I took myself to a little like working vacation in Palm Springs over the weekend which is a place that has like historically been very fruitful I was there with Wendy Hurd and Lane Fargo a couple of years ago when Lane Fargo finally put down the book that she had been trying to write for over a year called the Thorndale's and wound up being like, this isn't it. And then like a week later was like, I think I'm going to write a book that's a mashup of ice dancing meets Wuthering Heights. And it's like, so it has this like very like storied like place in my mind too of this, you know, that was kind of a crazy moment to be part of.

So anyway, so I just like sat by a pool and wrote for like two days. From Palm Springs. I know. So it was great. And I don't know. There's something it makes me, I'm curious to hear about you for you. Like, where do you get your best writing done? I know for me, a change of scenery can be really helpful. And like, I'm not a millionaire. So I'm not going to Palm Springs all the time. But sometimes like it's like, I got to go to a new coffee shop. Because the coffee shop that I go to all the time is the one that I like always work from. And so like it feels stale. Like I'm just curious like, where do you like to write? And like what does what is where you write from? How? How does it affect your writing? Yeah. So this is an interesting one because I was also thinking about how like just are you just weird sound. Like being in different locations like Sparks ideas in general.

But when I'm actually literally writing, I can't do it in public. I get so I mean, I'm sure I could, you know, like, especially if I took like noise cancelling headphones, but I, I love my purple office that I'm in right now, and it's so cozy. So in general, I'm normally writing here or the other option is my dogs are just needy little Velcro dogs, and sometimes Bruce just wants to be in bed. So I have like a triangle wedge pillow. That's like, I don't know why I'm thinking people won't understand like how big it is, but it makes it like easy to like sit in bed and write. So sometimes I end up sitting in bed so that he will just lay down and like be chill and be like cool.

Mom's not working anymore. So that's like the literal answer. But what I noticed in like the not literally typing way, right, typing part of writing was like, I know. hadn't really traveled in a really long time, very long time, until this year. And now I've done a decent amount of it. And I do, like, even though I haven't even been outside of America, you do see, like, just how different people's experiences are. And so then for, I was noticing how in that sense, as much as I love being at home, I was like, oh, going to new places, I see how you get new ideas because you're just like around different things.

And like a random example, but even like, I think it's in the synopsis, but I'm in Oxhaw's book, Almost Surely Dead. Like the opening scene is her, is the main character, almost getting like pushed in front of a subway. And I'd never been in front of a subway. You just like have your ideas of it from TV. But then you're there and you're like, oh, that would be fucking terrifying. and it does feel claustrophobic here and like all that stuff.

So it was just making me think of like, of course you have more ideas when you're in a different environment, like even if you're not typing, writing. So that makes sense. Totally. I think that's so true. And frankly, I also,

when I picture New York Subways, I'm picturing rats the size of like golden retrievers, which may really know. We didn't see any rats. That's good. We got very lucky. That's great. But no,

totally. And I think that like, I also think for me, there's something about it's like, you're right, it's a change of scenery, but it's also sort of like a change of mind frame. Like I am somebody who can get very locked into my to do list. And like, it is often easier for me to push out the creative work because that like requires more concentration and it requires like, you know, I have so many feelings wrapped up about being a writer and like setting down the internal editor and like the imposter syndrome and all of this stuff. It's made much easier to be like, send that email and then you'll like feel accomplished. And

like, there's something about being in a new place that makes it easier for me to like escape that mindset versus like being at home or at the coffee shop where I like usually go do my like, you know, day job work. And so I think that there's something really to me too about like being more in the mindset of like I'm a writer and prioritizing my creative self that like new places helps facilitate. I make a lot of sense because like I definitely. like if my schedule allowed, like could see how like just going to an Airbnb by myself somewhere, like it would be a lot easier to just sit there and write. Totally.

Even what you're saying is it does break you out of the routine because I'm a very routine person too. Totally. And also like it's funny, I actually do like a low level of chaos around me. Like a lot of, well, I think I overestimate how much. But like there were many chapters of the lady upstairs written at this tiki bar in downtown Disney, which is very geeky. But there was something about like the weird atmosphere there, the people you would encounter. There were so many people who had like fled the park to like have a drink there and like we're either having a great time or like you would see the weird like dynamics that brought out of people being like you're not da da da. And I was just like it was so like creatively rich.

I would just sit there sometimes and just like write down snippets of conversations I was hearing around me and also like deeply judge people's relationships. Um, because that's where I am. But like, uh, I don't know. There like, I don't know. There can be something like finding something for me. I think it sounds much more sane to be like, I need quiet to hear my own voice. But for me sometimes it's really helpful to have like a low level of stimulation around me. Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. Because like on the flip side, like I always have some of it is the dogs. but now, like, I'm used to it too. We have, like, sound machines in a lot of our rooms just because they're so reactive to just live around so many people and other dogs. So I also can't have things completely quiet. So, like, then if I, like, when I go to bed, like, then I turn on, like, those, like,

ASMR, like, rain scenes or whatever. So I do, like, that level, but also, like, Tyler can, or Tyler's the same way with like what you're saying like he will just go to this coffee shop downtown to work because like having people around him makes him more productive. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's a whole, I don't know, people are just wired around, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, yeah. I, we're such a fun pair because I am very easily overstimulated. and he is almost constantly under-stimulated. So it's really fun balancing those two. Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine that there's some negotiation required.

Yeah, because then it's like all those differences. And we've, we're like, let's work together. Like, immediately when we met each other and it's all we've ever known. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Sometimes that dawns on me and I'm like, thank God for therapy in my 20s. Totally, right? Honestly, I think it should be state funded, but that's a different conversation. That Palm Springs story is so cool, though. But Lane restarted a book there and then you restarted.

So the energy of it is kind of fun, too. It is for sure. And Palm Springs is such an interesting place. It's like... I was like, you sounded like a housewife. I was like, oh, my God, Hallie's so cool. She's like, I'm just going to have a Palm Springs. I can't get to Palm Springs. I mean, anytime you want to come with me, I'm always looking for Paul. Yes. Except for. Especially since my book is supposed to take place there. Like, I should probably go because you're not Palm Springs. But yeah. I will say I do have a story, a slight digression where my best friends from college,

I hope they've forgiven me. But like, we were looking for a summer trip to go on. And I was like, we should go to Palm Springs. It's going to be hot. But like, it'll be fine. I've done it before. You're going to get like, because Palm Springs, it's the desert, right? Like, L.A. is desert-e, but like it's not, this is the desert. And you get great deals in the summer because that's not when people are going to Palm Springs. And so there's this great hotel there called the Lakinta, not associated with like the chain. But it's this like, it basically was built in like, I think the 20s or 30s as like the playground of like the old Hollywood stars.

because L.A. is like the place where you would go to get away. It's like closer Vegas kind of thing. And it doesn't have necessarily the same casino life, but it has this sort of like glitz glam to it that like would be. So there are a lot of houses there that like, you know, Frank Sinatra's really associated with the place had a house like all these different like mid-century stars would kind of go and play in Palm Springs. And the Lakinta was like a place where like they have a bungalow that's like Clark Gable stayed here. And like this was like Carol Lombard's favorite place. And I'm like, we're going to get this great deal on this like, incredible beautiful resort and we did. Nice. It was the hottest summer on record. We were there for like three days and I think it was like between 121 and 124 degrees. Oh my God. Oh my god. So this wasn't a great idea. It was just we had to stay in the pool all day long. You just stayed in the pool. You couldn't get out of the pool because you were just like so hot. So that's not the time to go to Palm Springs. No.

But when I was there last weekend, it was lovely. And we should absolutely go. And it's just this interesting place because it's like white stucco. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, white seco. And they kind of have these like little bungalow casitas. And there's something like 35 pools or something because like there's a pool for like every four casitas or something.

So it's like it's really, it's really nice. And that wasn't where I stayed this time though. But it just is this kind of interesting place because it's like a place where people really live there, obviously. But it's so like a playground. Like now there's like a really great gay nightlife. There's like it's like definitely a place that people go for like bachelorette parties and stuff alongside a part of the country that is often like, it's like fairly economically depressed out there too. It's just this like interesting mix of stuff. And I find it kind of endlessly fascinating out there.

That is interesting. Yeah, because the only thing I've seen is the Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, ladies going. Which, yes, and like that for sure is out there, right? Of, like, the white ladies who are, like, being golf carted around. And, like, that's very different, too.

What a life, honestly, though. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have to go at some point. Well, we'll do, like, a whole Palm Springs thing. So what are some of your, like,

what are your, writing goals for this year? What does it realistically look like for you the next couple of months me writing? Yeah. So that's a good question because I was spiraling about the fact that I still wasn't able to write. And Tyler's like you're doing a lot of other stuff. Like still for a book wild, which hopefully will make it, hopefully will help sell books at some point. Yeah. So at the beginning of the year, I definitely said I wanted to query it by the end of the year. And I don't think that's impossible at this point yet. It just comes so much down to like work. And it's just when when you don't have set hours, that's like essentially the problem when it's like you.

So that basically I've been trying to figure out if I want to reconfigure that so that I'm not like hating the goal. Because I also, my inner critic is like, like was like how embarrassing that you said you were going to do that and you've barely written this year like my inner critic is like you put it out there publicly like you should be doing more and I was like okay thankfully thankfully in my 30s I can finally understand the difference between a helpful thought and not a helpful thought um and so I was like do I need to reconfigure it so I can't I can't tell if I want to reconfigure it we have just like I hate saying it over my over again and sound like that person. We've just been really nonstop in both February and March.

And I'm like finally breathing right now, both metaphorically and actually in terms of long COVID. So, so I can't tell, but I kind of want to see how April goes to figure out if I want to adjust the goal. So I'm not like shaming myself into doing stuff because that's not that's not the tactic to rely on right now. Totally. I totally agree with that. And like, I don't know. I think there are very few people who can use shame as a motivator long term in a way that like feels good or yields anything good, you know? Yeah. And like I also don't think like, I mean, I think it's always good to have a goal and then like also find compassion for yourself if you miss it. You know, like I don't know that any of your listeners are going to be like, Kate said, December 31st, God damn it, you know.

Yeah, it's just me saying it. But I totally get it. And like, so I think that's, you know, and whatever I can do to support, there's another, I think we, we did, I know we did this in the past. So like, thousand words a day. That'll be coming up again in summer. And I also think they're doing a mini thousand words this month. And I think it's just like three or five days or something where it's like a thousand words a day.

And I might be trying to do that just because I need to get into this book somehow. So I know. I get that. Yeah. And I'm like, I need to get back into it. I feel like even as you were saying it that too, though, I'm like, it's probably, I wonder, probably just adjusting the goal to like finishing a draft is probably. probably what would that still feels realistic and it's like it doesn't mean I have to have had someone edit it already and like get it ready to send out and then that way it's still like

a goal to work towards obviously and I mean I have a lot there is what I keep remembering and I'm like okay it really is I just need to find the time yeah figure out how to fit it in I get it just want to finish it this year I have a couple of thoughts about that one I am reading a book right now by a friend of mine. Her name is Barbara DeMarco Barrett, and she's fabulous. She's a noir writer. She was the editor of Palm Springs Noir, actually. But she wrote this book called Pen on Fire, a busy woman's guide to igniting the writer within. And I am somebody who, I don't think I will ever get to a point in my life or career where I feel like I can't use craft books and advice, like truly. So I am reading it. And something that she mentions that really

resonated with me that I talked about with my therapist this week in therapy. She basically was like, we're all, one of the easiest ways to talk to yourself out of writing is being like, I don't have an, like, it'll take me like an hour to really get into it. And she's like, if you have five minutes while something's in the oven right then, like, just get in the habit of like using those little in between times to like even. And like for me, the way I'm taking it is like even journaling or. just like just trying to like fall back in love with the art of writing because like I always I'm somebody who I really write like when I like write right right I write on my computer but I keep a journal

with me all the time everywhere and like that I think just getting back in the habit of being like so in touch with myself as a writer that like I'm always looking for excuses to write I think it's something that I have not felt since before I published my first book and it's something I want to try to get back to. And so for me, and maybe something for you to think about too is just like trying to stay in touch with it every day, even if it's like I wrote a sentence and it doesn't even have to be on your book or like I wrote for five minutes in my journal or I just jotted down this thought about the book. That's what I'm kind of trying to do more of. And like even also like trying not to be in the habit of being like it has to be every day, but just trying to do it more.

You know what I mean? Just like write more. even if it's garbage, even if it's handwritten, if it's not about the book, just write more so that like I do think creativity is a muscle and the more that you do that, the easier it gets to do that, you know? I love that idea and that approach. Because the other thing, and it's, I don't feel like I'm jumping, ready to jump ship or anything, but I have another idea for my second one. That's great.

about a basically a pop star who uses like the first like whatever we would call like the robots that are like legit going to seem human but are like AI. Yeah. And so she is one of the first people to be able to afford it as well. And so then she can use it when she's like, I just can't do the crowds today. I'm just not feeling it today. So I've had that idea almost since I also had the idea. I'm working on now. And every now or lately I've been having more thoughts about how I want to make it

twisty. And so I like the idea, though, of like not being like, okay, well, I'm working on this one. It's like, well, if I have like an idea for a paragraph for that book, just like write a paragraph. 100%. 100%. And I think you should be doing that either way. Like, you know what I mean? Like just drop down every idea about it. Even if you're not like on this book. now because like boy how many times have I and I'm sure all of us have made the mistake of being like I'll remember it and then you don't you never remember it you have to write us down yes I thankfully I do I have a lot of ideas in my notes but it's like bullet points so it's like but now I'm like

oh yeah why I will type out a text message that's a fucking paragraph while I'm waiting for stuff to cook or whatever so yeah like why why not just write a little bit of it not think about what it's like going towards totally i think that like it can be such a trap to be like like even those thousand words a day i think that that's like a really great way sometimes it's hard yeah and like sometimes it can be intimidating it can like lead to this all or nothing thinking of like well i'm definitely not going to get a thousand words so i shouldn't even do it today and it's like or you could write 20 words you know what i mean like that is better than zero Yeah, and as someone who is prone to black and white thinking, same.

It's a good one to like stress my brain out when you were talking about how sometimes you're like, well, I'll just do these tasks. So I'm like, oh, look what I did. I lean on that a lot. It makes me feel like, you know, totally, like a good little soldier of capitalism, you know, and it's much easier to do than like the deep work of like, what's the storytelling I want to do? Yeah, and like, why do I like to attach my self-worth to productivity so much? What's that about Protestant work ethic? Instead of creativity. Totally.

Totally. Or even being like sometimes you, like there are so many studies that are like, yeah, in order for creativity to flourish, you have to like cultivate the ability to be bored. You know, like you have to like be able to have that sort of like mind that isn't constantly being like input all the time. And it's like, that's actually hard. So, like that harder. You've done usually.

There's just so many good podcasts listen to. So many good podcasts, so many scary things in the world where you're like, rather not be alone with these thoughts. Thank you. You know, like there's so much. Yeah. Sure. Totally.

One thing I was thinking of too for you. It might be helpful just to even reread. Like you said, you had done like snippets of it, but just to like sit down and reread what you had some moment when you have time. I feel like that's always a good way to get back into. I think so, too. Because I just, yeah, I think so, especially because the way I've written it, I spent, like, the most recent months on this family that is, like, the antagonist.

So I also haven't been writing the protagonist very much. So probably rereading that stuff would be like, oh, yeah, this is where I was going with things. Totally, totally. yeah yeah I get that I'm doing a thing right now which is like boy I don't think you could design a more inefficient writing process than mine if you tried but here we are um I'm just I did this a lot with the lady upstairs and I don't think I really had the time to do it with the hurricane blonde because I was on such deadline but like for me it's so helpful to know a character's voice like once I know their voice I can kind of be like okay, it's almost like method acting or method writing or something. And you're kind of like, okay, I know I need this to happen in a scene. And then because I know this character so well, it'll be really easy to figure out how they're going to react to stuff and where you can like make those choices.

So right now I'm just like writing anecdotes in my little journal that I think may never make it into the book, but like inform my knowledge of the character. Like I have this one thing about this character is really sheltered and she's never had alcohol, but she has this kind of obsession with champagne because it's like held up to be like such like the like thing and like where did she even hear the first time. So I'm like writing down ideas about like stuff for that where it's like this isn't going to make it into the book, but it helps me understand who she is better. But like boy is that inefficient. Which I guess inefficient is looking at it. as productivity in some way. Good point, Kate.

Yeah. Oh, God, I can't. And what you're saying reminds me of Stephen King's quote about, like, he tells himself the whole story in the first drafts and then takes out what's not the story afterward. But like he's telling himself everything he needs to know essentially about the story. Totally, totally. And that's like I am, I wish I was somebody.

who is an outliner where you could like make a plan for the book and then just be like okay but like i very similarly in my first drafts have to like teach myself the book you know like i'm teaching about the world and who they are and yeah happens and making a lot of choices that i actually have to go like that didn't work let's go back and go somewhere else you know yeah i feel like it's what makes um i'm not trying to talk down about any subgenre thriller but like when thrillers actually feel like there's character work done like it is just like even more compelling to get both of those things mystery or thriller and there are also like every now and I do read a book where I'm like that was mostly plot but it was very fun so it's like also

those can be really fun but I think like that process is probably that leads to like the characters also feeling like very very real and like understandable which is like like like something I feel like, I don't know that I do it great, but that it's something that like I feel like I have to think like, because if I'm sitting there being like, how would I make these choices? I'd be like, well, I wouldn't be in this situation. So how are we going to, you know, like it's like when you, I am for sure, like we said, I am the Kate from White Lotus who's like, I actually don't want to make the adventurous choice. I'm not bringing home the strange men to the villa. Thank you. Like, so you have to like, I have to like build this person, you know?

Like, yeah. Yeah, that reminds me of like an early clip from the podcast when like Gare was learning that I read a lot of like spy thrillers as well. And he was like, you're such an adventurous woman. And I was like from my couch, sure. Like there's all like my favorite characters are doing shit. I'm never, I'm almost never going to do. Totally. Totally.

Totally. There is a difference. Isn't that part of the joy of reading and writing that you get to live a thousand different lives? You know, like I think so. Yeah. I do too. I feel like it's why, and I've talked about it before, but I think it's been a while. I like, sometimes I feel so lucky that reading does so much for me while I'm writing. But even just that reading does because it's like my husband like gets so stir crazy and the winter is terrible. and like just pushes him to the brink of seasonal depression. And he just feels like trapped often like physically. And I'm just like so lucky that like books are like, I'm going all over the place and this is enough for me. So like sometimes I like and like thank God that like 10 to $15 can like really do it for me. with my definitely totally i hear you i i feel the same way too i feel very lucky to be somebody who loves books and reading and writing and like i think about those people i think everybody is creative

like i think people get to cultivate it more than others um but like boy would i feel i don't know my life would feel very different if i didn't have writing as an outlet i think you know yeah i think i would be a very different person Yeah. It's like, yeah, I just keep saying, yeah. But you really do. You process, I'm thinking of how much you also process things by reading something. Yeah. And you can process stuff by writing what's like coming to mind for you. Totally. Or like even sometimes like, like when I am on my morning pages and like not writing anything that's necessarily going to lead towards publication, but like sometimes I don't even, it like leads me to a deeper level of thought

than I would have gotten to, you know, if I had just been like, if I hadn't been forced to kind of sit there and process it by hand. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And it makes me like just, it's so funny analyzing story. That was like the other part that I didn't realize was going to be so fun. And for some people, be like, it like ruins it for me. Like I see it. I'm like, it doesn't ruin it for me. Like, it makes me excited. Have you seen the studio? No, I haven't yet, although I definitely want to watch it. It's so up my alley, obviously. Oh, you're going to be obsessed. But that was another one where I was just like, Seth Rogen never ceases to amaze me, though, because, like, he's written some really profound, impressive stuff, really has an amazing grasp of story.

And he also wrote the hot dog movie and, like, probably with the same amount of passion as he wrote the studio and I'm like 100% this is why like some people's range is just so crazy but the studio is so good it happened me just like it's talking about how much I love good storytellers I got to I got to watch it I got to watch it I was thinking again today about um did you watch do you watch agatha all along no I need to we didn't have we don't have the Disney add on and I need just add it on. I think this may be a spot where we differ, but I could give two shits about Marvel, like, truly.

Like, have a handful. Like, I don't, I don't, it's not for me. And it's fine. It's like, I think, I think it's not even that it's not for me. It's that I spend, there's so much of it now that I feel like I would have to go back and like watch all of it. And I'm like, I'm not going to watch 30 movies. Like, I'm not going to.

But I did watch Wanda Vision during the pandemic. because I like Elizabeth Olson and I liked I liked the way that they were kind of like building that around like grief and like the way they did storytelling. Agatha all along might be some of the best storytelling I've like ever seen. That's what I've heard too.

It's incredible and I am saying that as somebody who is not a Marvel stand and I think it's like I think there's layers to it that you probably understand more deeply if you are a Marvel fan but like I thought it stood on its own very well. It was unbelievable. I think Wanda Vision is the main thing that it would help you to know about. So you probably knew a lot of that. Yeah, I agree. I think it like definitely. I think I did show it to a friend of mine who had never seen Wanda Vision and there were just a few things that I had to like catch her up on. But like I think it does help. But like, oh my God, it's so good. And such like truly excellent storytelling.

Damn. Yeah. You got to watch. Like another one that like just, a lot of people were talking about it. I was like, it sounds like I actually would like it. And it just slipped past my radar. And I haven't thought of it in a while. But now that's starting to happen with adolescents. Like everyone is talking about it. And I keep telling people, I keep saying it on the podcast, like, we're going to watch it this week.

Because Tyler wants to watch it with me. And we just has not lined up that we've had that kind of energy, like, at all to like start. Because I know it's really heavy too. Like starting it when you're like tired. at like 830 or nine like you're just not feeling it no i totally get it and it's like uh the the thing that i think is also really cool about adolescence which i haven't watched yet but like it seems i'm with you it seems heavy but then they're also like doing them all in oneers

like yes which is fucking nuts that's why type i'm like so obsessed with that yeah totally and it's so like i don't want to short change my attention on it exactly and so you're like i almost have to be like okay, not like it's homework because you're watching something and I join you, but like, I'm going to be paying all of my attention. I'm not going to be like, man, also on my email, you know. Yes, phone down TV time. Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Yeah, that's what we were running into. And even, even last night, it was the exact same sentiment that you just said, because we recorded with someone who couldn't record until 8.30 at night. Oh, no. It could start until 830. Oh, no. And then it was like a lot of catch.

So we didn't start until nine. And then a tornado took out my power at 9.30. So we just, I thought they'd left. Gare was like, nope, we're still here. Are you? And I'm like, yep. Like, well. So then we finished it.

So all of that to say, this early normally gets in bed around like 830 or 9. Sure. So I got in bed and I knew we had the studio to watch. And I was like, I don't know if I should just go to sleep or watch the studio. And I was like, I want. to enjoy the studio. So I did the same thing and did not end up watching it last night. But Wunners, the second episode of the studio, and this is, I don't think this counts as a spoiler, is Wonders about making a oneer.

Whoa. It is so meta. It was one of the best episodes of TV I've watched this year. Okay. It is so good. And then I saw in an interview, there are four oner's. There are about four six minute shots that come together to make this episode about making a oneer. Amazing. I can't wait to see it.

I'm so obsessed. Yeah. I remember seeing that because the first two episodes came out at the same time. So all the TikTokers I follow who do TV and movie reviews were like a wonder about a wonder. And I was like, oh, my God. So yeah, you're going to have to watch this. studio we'll have to talk about the studio at some point yes definitely oh i can't even remember i don't know

if it's eight or ten episodes that are going to air basically i don't know when sorry my nose is like so itchy right now um i don't know i don't know how many are going to air in the first season isn't it so interesting that like tv used to be a full season used to be like 20 episodes 22 episodes or something and then it was 10 and now it's eight. And I, it's like, and I'm not complaining. I actually think TV, like, I think that there's a lot of things that have gotten like streamlined out. And I think a lot of the big orders were probably like sitcoms in which you weren't doing as like complex storytelling over time.

But like it is funny to be like eight episodes. And then occasionally I'll go back to something and it'll have like 20 episodes. And I'm like, what is this? Like who is the time? You know? That's what I can't remember who I was having that conversation with. but I was like, it was dawning on me too, especially since I've been watching stuff weekly again. It's been reminding me of that time where we, totally.

That used to just be the only option or appointment television really meant if you weren't sitting there, you didn't get the recording to watch. Oh, yeah. The next day. So it was so different. And somehow that was when we had 22 episodes of season. And it is, I do love like, and sometimes you run into like six episodes season or like a limited series. I do love that people are like, this was a contained story and it was like good at this length.

So I do I do love the quality that it seems to like kind of help with. I agree. I agree. I think, you know, I'm sure that maybe it's harder for writers in some way to be like staffed in writing rooms that don't go as long. But I'm with you. I think that like breaking free of the tyranny of that sort of structure and like because things are on streaming now so much more than they are. are on like, like you said, appointment television. I think it has enabled people to tell like more stories and ways that like maybe

are more about like what's the arc of the story versus like we have to tell X amount of hours. Yeah, they're like, well, we want to go for eight or ten seasons if you can. So just keep your leads apart romantically forever. Yeah. Like Bones was so much that. And like I really enjoyed Bones. But it was like you get to like see. season six and you're like really they like are just pretending they don't like each other still like

like it's there in the name just bone like let's go exactly oh my gosh but yes so many episodes of season though yeah you got fed not fed and I imagine like I also know it's funny because I'll work and I'll be or I'll watch those and be like let's be tiring you know like to be like we're stretching this out over like 20 episodes and something that now we would do in 10 like yeah yeah it's even like Ellen Pompeo like how long she's been doing grays but she's always said like I can like clock in and clock out for the most part I know what I'm doing and then I can go hang with my kids and I'm like sounds great how that would be a perfectly nice life too oh totally yeah but that's a lot that's a lot of one show yeah it is a lot it's a lot but yeah

I feel like we covered a lot of important things. I think we did. I think we have many, many important incestual hand jobs. Yes. I know now you're going to have to come on shortly after the finale so we can discuss our predictions. Yes, I totally agree. I'm so intrigued. Me too.

We could, like, I always love talking with you and I'm always happy to go long, but we could even do like a mini-soat where we just like break down. Yeah. You know? That would be. fun. Okay, let's do that. I know I have time next week.