Bookwild - White Lotus Season Three Reactions with Halley

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

This week, Halley and I do a DEEP dive into our thoughts after the season three finale of The White Lotus. Grab a piña colada and enjoy! 🙃Links Mentioned:White Lotus PodcastNo Nonsense SpiritualityTake on Death in Season 3 Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

We don't even need the question. It's like, so what have you been reading? What have you been watching? This is all about what we've been watching, guys. This is our white lettuce recap. After our predictions. Yes. From last, well, this-ish week, but we recorded it last week. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So how was it watching with your friends? Like, how many people did you watch it with? Okay. So I'll set a scene. So I watched it Tuesday night. And literally, so that was last night, literally all. of us were in the room and we were like, no, nobody was doing anything Sunday. Why didn't we watch this Sunday? Like, you always watched on Tuesdays, but why didn't we just be like, let's get to

finally. Instead, I spent Sunday night, like, off the internet Monday. I was like minimal Instagram. I saw anything that even looked White Lotus related. I was like, get out of here, Satan. I was talking conversations with people at my work. like, listen to me. I haven't watched it yet. So don't you say anything. What's the production numbers doing? Like, I would, like, having every conversation, like, if you tell me you're out of my life, like, my mom's are talking about it. And I was like, all hang up. Like, that's where we were at. So I did get to the final last night, pretty much unspoiled. The only thing I saw was a meme of Parker Posey and being like, no, if I send you this picture

I'm telling you I was right. And so I was like, something went wrong at the thing. So that was the monastery. And I definitely want to, I want to talk about all of this with you. I do too. So setting the same were at my friend Cindy's house. There were four of us there. We've been watching it.

Sadly, my roommate has been watching it with us. And it's his first White Lotus season. And he's in San. So I was deeply like, go fuck yourself, Jesse. You can catch it when you get back. I'm not waiting a week. you know like yes and we watched it and we implemented a rule at the start of our watching that anybody could put up a hand and we would have to pause it and then we could like talk about what was

happening because we didn't want to be like talking over each other as it was happening yeah that was my viewing experiences don't we sound fun we have like deep rules for how we enjoy it boundary to people you know you know what you're sliding up for that's kind of funny they This is Tyler watched it too, and it's his first White Lotus. I feel like it's a lot of people's White Lotus season. Severance and White Lotus just had like a resurgence of people getting interested. And I'm here for it, obviously. Me too.

How did you watch it? So we, I mean, we started it at like 905. It airs at nine here. I was, I feel like my heart was pounding the whole time. We were just in bed, basically. but like my I mean there were things that stood out but like I felt like I was sat yeah but and even comfortably sat and paying attention to but um my my heartbeat was just my heart was just I felt it the whole time it was more emotional I think than the other finale's and it was just like there were

some things that surprised me that got to me I agree and I don't even know how we want to start or where we want to dig into this but I I agree. I think this was the season where I felt the most worried for people. And I was devastated by deaths. Like, first season, the death is definitely played for laughs, right? Like, sorry, Armand, you're great. But, like, you're taking a dump in somebody's suitcase and you get stabbed.

Like, definitely a funny scene. Even our queen, Tanya McQuod, who I am vaguely cosplaying at, but I will not do a chat of depression because I can't. I can't even. I was like I went I went I went on a walk before we're having this podcast and on the walk I was talking to myself and I was trying to be like well and I was like you can't do it Hallie don't talk to it on podcast like it's not going to happen for you. There's a podcast where I listened to who just says er like she doesn't even try but it's just she just makes the R sound and we all know who she's talking totally she has like way too yeah the thing so um even our queen tanya macaw like there was this weird it was such a it was so darkly funny in keeping a lotus right where she has this moment of triumph she manages to kill everybody on board and then dies slipping off the boat so it's like you're sad but you're

not you know like yeah and legitimately i was like oh no like i don't really want anyone to go and i was who what were you most anxious about like did you have a scenario in your head you were worried about um i was worried about chelsea so the interesting thing obviously at this point everyone one note there's spoilers was in the title of this so um don't have to dance around it but that what what's very interesting is that's what that's kind of my prediction that i brought up uh previously but then your prediction was still like 90% right like he lockland yeah if anyone didn't listen to our prediction episode she predicted everything that happened to lockland except that he came back to life at the end of it. But that was the most anxiety producing scene for me was that almost death.

What we thought at the time was death. I just like felt it in my heart. And I'm not even I didn't think I was even particularly attached to him. So it was kind of surprising to me and stood out to me. But I was like, then when I looked back on it, I'm like just dying and not knowing why and you're just alone. Like I think that's why it was so resonant or whatever. For sure. And it was sad. It was like, I mean, there's so much to unpack there about the almost family annihilation that happened. That part was scary too. Like, I was like, I got out of my chair and I was like on the ground. Like, just I don't know.

I was just like this so often. Totally. My boy did the thing of like the rule of threes, right, where we've seen him have two other visions of like killing his only and they were wrong. there were dream sequences. And so this one sort of framed like a dream like a dream sequence. So my friend and I were like, it's a dream, it's a dream. He's not doing it. And then there was one moment.

I don't remember what it was where it clearly like shifted out of like, oh, it's a dream. And I was like, oh, fuck. Like, yeah. The coconut milk is off. That might have been the moment. That might have been. I think there was right before it were that where they like there had been something about the way that the camera was like in a sort of fuzzy thing.

And then it came more clear. And I was like, oh, no. this is happening. This is not, you know. And there was something so awful about that, of course, obviously,

in the family annihilation part of it, but then leaving Lachlan behind. Like, what a war? Because he could survive. Right. And like, and so not only is he going to have to survive,

finding out, like, all the things about his dad, but like, now his father has killed the family and you're alone. Like, that is,

there's something so deeply cruel about that. So I agree. There was that. And then the one to punch of like he's the only one who, quote unquote has been deemed to survive and then he's going to die because he can't wash out a fucking blender lost me a little bit there where I was like of course a man is going to die because he doesn't rinse the blender like sure right right right right I know some people are like

there's been that there's been the upro of like who would do that and like teenage moms are like my son my son would do that sure like I was like I was like feels real to me like we couldn't rinse so we're going to have to die alone by a pool how sad Right. Yeah. I think so those, I'm trying to think chronologically is probably kind of the best way. I'm sure we'll jump around. But that part was happening pretty early at the beginning because he, I'm trying to think what was the first. That's what we opened with somewhat like that, right? What did we open this? Tim realizes Oh, it's like they come back from the from the thing, right?

Yes. And, wow, well done, Halley. The kids come back from the monastery. Yes, that's what it is. They're going, yeah. Yeah, you can tell it's off, which I want to unpack a lot about that, but we don't, I don't know if it's not. I think it is.

I should have taken more notes just to do it chronologically, but like I'm sure we're still just going to touch on everyone because I have character notes is kind of what I realized, but I think chronologically organized them. Yeah, I get it. So, okay, so what were your thoughts about her basically coming out of that experience and being like, so I'm not this person, I'm somebody else? So, so many cool things about that scene, in my opinion. First of all, I was giggling so much. Yeah. It was laugh out loud, funny. Like, he's just so good at like, even when a character is admitting something like this, he's so good at making it so funny. I mean, the standout quotes to me are like, maybe I am spoiled and she's just sobbing.

And it wasn't like organic and the food like wasn't organic and there wasn't air conditioning. And she's just like needing to be comforted about realizing she's spoiled. Then we have Barker Posey with a thumbs up over her daughter's shoulders like, we did it. where and you're watching on his face and like even before we know the family annihilation is coming you know like the look on his face is like well shit i have to kill my daughter now too so intense he's like oh my god none of them can survive oh my god what have my dad and parker's like i know she's like god my daughter's a little capitalist gremlin yes then her victoria's we live better than anyone ever has, even the kings and queens. And if we don't enjoy it, that's just

offensive. I was dying laughing. Like, it's, it's terrible, but hilarious. It's terrible but hilarious. And like, okay, I will say this thing. And I, there's this weird thing and maybe I'm totally wrong and I'm open to that. There's something that Victoria gets at that is uncomfortably true to me at times where, like, I don't like the way she says that she's usually racist and classist and privileged. Right. Like she's right in the sense that Piper essentially running away and having all this privilege to do it doesn't actually help other people.

You know what I mean? Denying that she is a rich girl does not help other people. Now, putting that privilege to use to help other people could be useful, but essentially just being like, we're not rich. It's not actually doesn't help other people on the planet. You know, it is just sort of like a different. sort of privilege to be able to be like, I'm not like them, but I still live in the comfort like them. So there was like a couple of times she said things where I'm like, I don't like the way

you say this, but I don't. It also makes me uncomfortable that there's like something under there that I can understand what she's saying too. It's what makes it so funny, I think is like the little ways that he actually makes it relatable because what I have been thinking about from that scene too, I'm not going anywhere without air conditioning. I'm wealthier. than a lot of the world, even though I'm not wealthy as an American. And so that's the other part that I kind of enjoyed about it is I'm like, I am not as wealthy as this family, but I'm not far off from the things she's saying. I have no interest in eating the food that it looks like they were eating.

I have zero interest in sleeping without air conditioning. Like, I'm the same way, technically. And it's those little things that are like still true that like I think make it so funny. And like so insightful. And I, there's something, I mean, you point out you're not as rich as this family. They're not rich anymore, which we'll also have to get to because I, but I will say the only, I loved that moment too. I thought it was kind of a hilarious, horrifying reversal.

I feel like I had picked up throughout the season that so much of her desire to go live in that community was about trying to differentiate herself from her family to be like, I'm not the bad one. I'm not the bad privileged one. Like, I live differently. So that part didn't surprise me. But I do wish there had been signposted a little bit more that she was going to take this turn at the end. Because I felt like even when she's at the monastery, I wasn't picking up that she was like so horrified by everything. I felt like, and maybe it's hard because that moment with her brother was the one that I think was more overshadowing. Yeah, when he's like, I'm going to do it too. And she's like this. For what you started this with. She's not different.

anymore. Totally. Totally. And so like that to me felt like the more rounded arc than her kind of being like I am actually a creature of comfort. I wish that's been like a little more threaded through. I agree. Because I think that was so, it felt like that was so much a part of it. Yeah. Totally. I do you wonder if any of that got cut. So I know you said you listened to there for anyone who doesn't know, and I'll link it. There is a White Lotus podcast. And there's an episode with Mike White looking back over this season. And he mentioned some scenes that got cut. And so sometimes, too, I'm like, did they,

because like that was very obvious that she was like, oh, you want to do this? I don't want to do it anymore. Like that felt pretty intentional in the way that they filmed and presented that scene. So I just, I wonder what didn't get in since it's a 90 episode or 90 minute episode. Totally. Totally. I think so too.

I'm curious about that. Okay. So while we're with that list, sorry. go ahead well i was going to say and then i think then that's where shortly after they go back after having breakfast and that's when he's like do you think you could handle that's when he asked lock let do you think you could handle being poor like poor poor and all the means that are like america don't trump to america right now is killing me it's just killing me i've been so trying to avoid anything why this is so darkly hilarious

I know. And he's just slurring his way through this conversation. I was like, yeah. And he's like in a suicide pact with the rest of America being like the ones who can handle being poor get to stay. Like, oh, God. Yes. The week won't survive. Oh, God.

Oh, God. Yeah. But yeah, then that's when he said, do you think you're going to do it? And he's like, okay, I have one kid. Who can? But to me, that's also such a funny thing because it's so. Yeah. It's so, and I mean, I guess this speaks to what's going on with this man, which is that, first of all, how he hasn't, his liver is about three hours away from stopping functioning with that amount of larazepam and booed. Especially if he had never taken it before. Right. And like this man, how he hasn't OD'd, I don't understand yet. We're falling asleep. I have Ativan. I fall asleep. I don't, I take a Benadryl and like things get exciting for me. You know what I mean? It's a little spicy in my world.

Yeah. Like he's asking them, he's kind of trying to get at a question with them with like Victoria and all these different people being like, could you be poor? But they don't know that he's asking in all seriousness. You know what I mean? So like even Lockland saying, yes, I could. That's a theoretical. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't necessarily mean he could thrive when he finds out like his father's going to jail.

Like there's that. And there's the other thing we learn about Lockland because he just directly said it. He's a people pleaser. a family full of narcissists. He's just, he's just going to go with that. He's reflecting whatever vibe is given to him. Like he doesn't know. He doesn't know. He's like, yeah, sure, I could, dad. I'd be fine. That is such a good point, Kate. Like, he is reading what his father needs. This is, this is the father's son hand job that like, but it's emotional. It's an emotional hand job. It is. I mean, all of it's incestuous with this family.

Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And you really do like that that's what made it make as odd as it sounds that he's like I thought I looked over at you and thought you looked left out and I just wanted to include you you think like on paper that would be hard to be like okay yeah that makes sense but when he said it I was like yeah he's like floating between the siblings constantly like he doesn't have his own sense of identity and his brother has been like all that matters is sex and he's like oh my brother's over there They're like, I'll include him. I'm like, he meant it.

I think he meant it. And I think there was, I think he meant it. And I felt like I picked up a thing. Mike White didn't address this in the podcast because I listened to it too. So we have plenty to talk about there. Yes. I felt like I also picked up on a vibe of it's that interesting thing where it's like he loves Saxon.

He wants to please him. But he also wants to be him and he wants to beat him. He wants to like top him. And there was something like dominant in that moment too, you know. I think that was part of it. I think it wasn't just... The episode before it, he says something to Saxon. He's like, when I take you out, though, I will take you out.

And then that happens. And I was like... Right. I mean, this clearly was not the character. Although we do have things to talk about with Saxon. And I actually feel like... We do. ...who showed a little growth.

And I am unfortunately a little more attracted to the young sports... than I wish I was, unfortunately. And his swim shorts at the end, I wanted to bite into that thigh meat, like a little dog with a tooth. I wish I didn't feel that way, but I do. And this character is supposed to evoke those feelings, probably. But like, I wish she'd had the fortitude to be able to say, like, listen, we're never going to talk about the handjob, but I still love you.

Like, even in that moment where they sort of talked about it, they couldn't really like connect. Right. They connected too much. That's true. They overconnected. Now they're like, we'll take a breather. Yeah.

So then, yes, this is what then leads to the scene. You were talking about where we think he really is about to kill his whole family. And I think in that episode is where Mike was that that episode. I listened to that and then I was listening to Natasha Rothwell on Las Colteristas. So I can't remember which was which necessarily. But when he was saying it was even like Kool-Aid, why can't I think of who killed everyone or that? He was like even like the speech kind of starts like this where it's like, I was supposed to protect you. That's my job.

Drink this drink. And you're like, oh my God, men will do anything to not go to therapy. I had that thought I was like, men would rather kill their whole. family than go to therapy. We can also talk about that with the Walton Goggins of it all. And then also like men would rather accidentally die than wash out a blender. Those two things leading to a lot of stuff. Yeah.

And also like I liked nobody pinged any red flags when he was like, we have lived better than anyone. And it's like, what's that past tense in there? Like exactly. He kept using past tense. And everybody like, I couldn't tell if they were really all going to die. I was like, because I'd also seen some press before. where like people are like people are really going to hate mike white and it made me think there

might be an even higher body count than there was so i was like totally in that you listen to the podcast you might have seen the memes too of his quote where people are like nothing happened oh right the edging first of all yes first of all i could not a group disagree more so many things happened what are you talking about second i loved his description he's like i'm edging you don't want to get edged get out of my pet don't be a bossy bottom totally i like that too that's what the whole episode felt like that's what my heart my heart was being edged the whole entire episode it was so tense in a way that i don't remember feeling with the other i don't either finalies like i don't know being like oh god who's gonna die you know yeah yeah yeah and you're right there's more there's a little more

humor and levity to them in general the other the other finale's yeah and this one did i think that might have been a part of my prediction when I said it felt it felt like a Greek tragedy like the way Chelsea spoke all season totally like a tragedy and that is what this one did more of was the and he was saying in the podcast more of like a was it fable was that the word they were using for it or parable parable yeah the word they kept using it it does kind of have more sadness to it it did and I thought that they did such a good job of that with the Walton Goggins character who

like dies like essentially cannot like as she says he can't over he can't stop thinking about the love he didn't have so he doesn't see the right in front of him and then this mistake is what causes him to kill the man that we

find out as his father got a couple of notes about that and then that Chelsea dies and and then I would She also said the flip side. Chelsea was my favorite character in the sense that I felt like she had the most, like, heart and sort of, like, purest. She's captivating. Yeah. And Amy Lou Wood was amazing. But there's a way on which that's also true of her, too. Like, she's with this man who is so clearly so self-destructive and kind of doesn't see her right in front and sees it almost as her job to, like, go down with him if he's going down. And that is also not a healthy model of. of anything. You know what I mean? Like it's more empathetic and it's less like, but it is toxic in its own way. And so I felt like that was very interesting in like this sort of tragic romance that

was like bad for them both in this way. Yeah. A couple things on that specifically. I saw a take there's the girls conversation where we where which we'll get to that too. But Carrie has her monologue that talks about what is my religion using religion as a concept of what gives life meaning is like what that one kind of introduced it as um and i saw something that said walton gagan so now walton rick rick made pain his god 100 and chelty made him her god and so they they both were doing that with things to your point and i i completely agree there are some who've been like their relationship was my favorite one and I'm like it was I was intrigued to watch it but at no point was I like this is the healthy way for her to be in a relationship with someone

no totally agree and like I did you know they have this beautiful moment on the beach where she runs to him and it's him and he's like I finally got the monkey off my back and you're like unfortunately it's too early in the episode for me to believe this but like what a beautiful and like that was a beautiful moment and I did want I I wanted them to make it. I wanted them to get like, you know, if this was a different kind of show, I was hoping maybe we'd get to the end of the series and that he would have gotten the monkey off his back and be like, oh, I believe that they're going off into a better life.

But I agree with you. She did make him her God. And he is a bad God to worship because he is just like suffering. Like that is all he is and can be. All suffering. And I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Bookwild, but I would love to do. do it without having to have ads in the podcast. And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon

community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early, and you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book-related or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the Book Wilde tier, and it includes everything from the first tier, but also Book Wild's Backlist Book Club. So this year, I've been wanting to also still read more backlist, even though I read plenty of arcs. And Book Wild's Backlist Book Club felt like the

perfect way to do that. We meet on Sundays. We are international right now. So Sundays are the best way to do it. And we meet on Zoom and we all pick a book and we talk about it. And then we talk about everything else we read during the month. And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far. And we'd love to have you join the book club. So if you'd like to support the bookwild podcast, you can go to the Patreon link and the show notes. And you can sign up for whichever root to your interest you. And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. And honestly, I feel like we're naturally transitioning into talking about their arc, even though there are

a few things I want to come back to with the rat lips, but we'll, we'll support the end. I'm going to say, I blame a little bit, MRETA, the stress therapist. I, oh my God. It seemed clear. that he needed some more help at the moment. The one time he makes a good decision, which is I'm overwhelmed by feelings. Let me seek out somebody who might be able to help me. And she sees this man and is like, sorry, I've already got an appointment. You couldn't go back to Zion and say, give me 20. You know what I mean?

I agree. So clearly seemed like the wrong. I'm not saying she should blame herself for the deaths, but I am saying, you had an opportunity. There was a moment there in which she could have made a different choice. think the show would have ended differently that's fine i agree i agree did you did were you thinking he we didn't even talk about the possibility that he was his father i it was out there and i was like i don't know i don't know how i feel about it but and still it feels like possibly it was still an unnecessary twist or reveal yeah kind of but there is the interpretation that he was so

consumed with killing a man for killing his father, that he became a man who killed his father. Oh, you're right. So when I saw it that way, I was like, okay, okay, with the themes being identity, I think he was talking about that in that episode and like what are wrong, what are wrong concrete ideas about our own identity are the problems. It is interesting that he got so obsessed with doing it that he ended up turning into that guy. You're totally right where it's like, my father's dying one way or the other. If he's still alive after all this time, not anymore.

Like, yeah. You're right. You're right. It is. There's something like Mike White in that great podcast that you sent me talked a lot about Buddhism inspired this. And I don't know that much about Buddhism, but it does feel like that sort of thing, which I think is Freudian, like where it's almost like the thing you're afraid of you create. Like if you're so afraid of, you like, cheated on you, like wind up being so hypervigilant that your partner feels trapped and then they might cheat on you, not saying that anyone like, no, it's their own bad reality. I'm just saying that like sometimes you can be so great to say that you like almost like go the opposite direction and it like pushes like holding too tight that then you like lose it and you're right that is

sort of what happened with him a little bit yeah I don't know what are your thoughts about finding out he was the father I felt like I had an inkling of that in the last episode when he repeated the mother's name he said the mother's name in a way that lent it meaning and I I know I wasn't the only one who was like huh because I saw things on the internet being like oh I guess he's his dad I don't know about turn though. I know. I didn't need it. I feel like I didn't need it to have been satisfied with it. One of the people I was watching with brought up a really good point, which was like, so then why did the mom tell him that this man killed his father? Like, you know, like it just, it's not that you couldn't have made that make sense, but like because it happens in that moment after he shot him, like, I felt like it was just trying to put a button on something to make it more. painful than it was.

And to make it, like you said, have this sort of, like, Greek tragedy feeling. But to me, you already get that because I felt like the second we know he, the second he shot Hollinger, I was like, Chelsea's dead. You know what I mean? Like, that's me, I was like, oh, that's happening. Like, that's, we're off the table there. Which I felt like could have been the exact same thing, right?

Like, I've gotten this sentence, but I lost the thing that I loved. And also, I don't know. no you're i've been talking i'm spewing at the mouth no you're totally fine and then they looked like yin and yang in their death oh you're right you're totally right the way he was facing and then she's even face down and then the bullet hole wound like is like the circle in the yin and yang and that was like in my predictions i was like she keeps talking about yin and yang she keeps talking about he's pain and i'm hope and we're in a battle to see who wins yeah like i was like guys, this is not good.

And then even in this episode, she's like, even to the next life, I'll follow you. And I'm like, oh, okay, all right. I was totally. She was, it was pretty hard to avoid the signs that she was going to die. And then the second that they were at, um, dinner or whatever, and she was like, we'll be together forever. And he was like, that's the plan. I was like, well, goodbye, Rick.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, what was everyone's going down. But I actually wish, um, I think that there are. a few things, and you know me, this is like my favorite topic is noir. And so there were a few things that felt very noir in this season, one of them being Guy Talk, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point. Yes. And then Belinda, but I actually feel like the more devastating choice in a way would have been to Rick alive. Yeah. He has to live with having killed his father and having caused the death of Chelsea. And I agree. Part of me that was sort of like, I think it would have been

I think it would have gone a little harder if he'd like been the last one standing at the end there and just like, fuck. Yes. I do. You'd have to actually face his actions. I had an interesting conversation with her episode comes out next week, Samia Davay, who wrote The Guilt Pill, which is so cool. But we recorded the morning after White Lotus aired. And so we were even talking about it afterwards. And one of the things about the rat lifts, she was like, I was really glad.

that he had to face it and he we don't get the full reactions which different people feel different ways about but we do get him saying things are are about to be bad is the gist of what he says to them and she was like i was really glad that he didn't completely wrangle out of that one i think that's what we're kind of talking about though with rick's character or walton guggins i do know everyone just calls them the names and the actors um that's kind of what you're saying he kind of of didn't have to live with like all of the devastation that he actually caused. Yeah. And before I forget, her face acting when she was dying, you could see her realizing, like, this wasn't my soulmate. This wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Like you saw her like, she looks confused. Yeah.

And sad and kind of regretful all just in her eyes. And I was like, girl, I know, get your next rolls from this. Like it was powerful. Put her in everything. I love her face. I love how expressive is. She had such good reaction shots a couple of different times, including my favorite was when the boys kiss. The brother's like really kiss and they panned her face. And you just catch it out the corner of the screen. She's like, so great. She's so expressive. It's yeah, put her in everything. It was your total way. She doesn't say anything in that moment. And all she's been doing is like talking this whole time and then it's yeah it was heartbreaking yeah i feel like because we finally left chronologically behind we did the three girls or the three women i just say girls guys what were your

thoughts okay this is one that's so nuanced that my feelings aren't even clear which i think is cool so we have we have her talking about like she thought her religion was work uh this is Lori or Carrie Coon. And then she thought maybe it would be marriage and then she thought maybe it would be family and none of it worked out. And then she says, paraphrased, like I realized that time gives life meaning to me. That I very, very deeply resonate with. That part I loved.

And there are also parts I love about the next part I'm going to talk about. but it's also conflicting for me. And I know why it's conflicting for me. So I'll share. But her part when, because she's saying she has been sad this whole time. And there's a lot that I understand in what she's saying she's been sad about. And then we have the line. She's like, I love that you have a beautiful face.

And I love that you have a beautiful life. And I'm just happy to be at the table. So there are parts of that that I understand. It's cool to have shared time. with people and that does create a lot of meaning in relationships that can still be difficult, but they feel worth it because of time. So I really get that. I'm a little bit stuck on the fact that I do feel like she got bullied more. Yeah. I don't I, I kind of feel like it wasn't just that she was sad about her life. I feel like there was more like side eye to her. And so as someone,

this is where I know that some of my, this is what I'm bringing to the table to this scene. And as someone who has had, well, they're your family or, well, you've spent so much time with them as an example to stay in a relationship that's not fulfilling to me, that part is a little, it's a little wonky for me because there were things that I liked about her standing up to them. And we talked about that last time. And there were things that I felt like they really were still too harsh to her, even though they all were seeing each other clearly. So some of it, that part of the scene, sometimes I'm like,

you don't always want to just be like, and I'm just happy that you'll have me here even though you treat me poorly. So that's my, that's my take on all of it, essentially. Totally. And I, I, I totally see that reading of it. And there's something, there's something that kept happening in this episode in particular. This was my favorite season of White Lotus. And I was on pins and needles this whole episode. But this wasn't, this episode. This episode, episode wasn't my favorite episode of the season. That goes to the, you know, party scene and like, there was something about it that occasionally didn't hit as hard for me. And one of them as I felt like there was a difference between, I don't know if I know how to say this exactly. Like,

there was almost moments where I felt like we were being queued to feel a certain way as the audience that like wasn't necessarily something that felt as earned in the story. And like, there was something about that moment and that that one wasn't even the worst one for me but like where you're right in the context of their relationship i don't know that i want her being like i'm just happy to be here with you guys no matter what relationship is but as a viewer it was very satisfying to see carrie coon get the best monologue and have the most interesting arc out of those friends right those other two women have this moment right before that where they're like, oh my God, it was so lovely. My garden is in bloom.

Totally. And it's like, first of all, Leslie Bibb is amazing. And like she is fantastic. Fantastic. And like it truly devastates me that like she was the character, the Trump supporter character, like religious, which I identify with neither. But that I identified with the most where she's, you know, at the like villa being like, please don't bring these men back here.

I just want to go to bed. Like that is so the vibe I bring to a party, which is not fun. It's safe though. It is very safe. So the, they had these sort of like shallow, like even as it's nice, they're kind of putting a bow on things. But you're like, you guys have actually had kind of like a shit week, you know, in some ways. Like, you're great. And so it felt so disingenuous to be like, wasn't this great?

So like, as a view. That's how I felt. Yeah, as a viewer, it was super satisfying to be like, Carrie Coon is the one who sees past this moment of transcendence and, like, gets to say it and gets to change this for them and be more within the context of their characters, I'm with you, you're also sort of like, girl, maybe find new friends, though, like, you know?

I know, go ahead, sorry. There were at times I felt this split between what the show was queuing me to feel and what I felt for the characters. And I felt that also with Belinda. And I felt that with Guy Talk a little bit. We'll get to there. And I certainly felt it with the rat lifts on the boat. And I want to talk about all of those things.

But I'm not trying to jump the gun. I'm just saying like, I have such a rant about the reaction to Belinda. Yes. And that was what I was texting you about yesterday when I was like, or Monday. I can't remember. I was like, I just really disagree with some of these interpretations. So we might be a land on the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

friendship that's what that's what I what I so at the beginning and I may have been someone who said it I don't know but I think I always maintained that when people are like he just gets female friendship so much um I felt like and he even says he this was very much inspired from reality like especially real housewives um that trio was and so to me it has always felt like he really knew how to write a very specific kind of woman who has a very specific kind of relationships. The interesting thing when I kept seeing this discourse over the whole season, but then it was very punctuated by how I felt with the scene that we're discussing is like I lately have been so very grateful for the female friendships I have in my life. And none of this is taking place, honestly. Like I feel I just I feel so supported by the women that are in my life. like I can't fathom them tearing me down that's like like I can't so I kind of started to have a problem a problem whatever with this discourse of like this is what all my friends are like lots of

I've seen that on TikTok and I'm like get better friends I kind of felt that way the whole season because like I can't imagine you talking shit about me I can't imagine Steph talking shit about like I could go through the list where I'm like I feel like we could be on vacation and like first of all if we're tired, we'll all just split up and read anyway. We're not going to get on each other's nerves. But it was making me lately realize, like, I don't think all female friendships are like that. And I think we're, I think social media was running too fast and loose with this idea that all of them are, because I don't feel that way. I agree. I think he did a really nuanced job of creating a very specific type of female friendship that you're right is very housewives coded. I think there's also something like

there's a bigger conversation here. And this is something I have thought about a lot is like, why are we so culturally invested in the narrative that women are catty? Like it makes for great television, right? Like housewives, but like I do worry about in this weird, even though I have so many examples of it in my own life. So it's like it's clearly not all women. But like I worry that the more we hold up this archetype that this is what female friendships are, the more like people will ingest that particularly when they're young. And like, and also like, I don't know that I also think there's this type of misogyny that goes with it too that allows men to look at these

bitches and stuff and it's sort of like yeah i don't know like i'm the women like that exist in the world but also like yes housewives a reality show is also a product so they're giving us things like no one would watch a show where they're like i hear you and i support you you know what i mean like they're they're doing step into a container to discuss this neutrally yeah and this tag is like reality tv it gives the appearance that this is how people actually act and I'm with you. It's not that I couldn't recognize that have I ever talked shit about a friend, sure. Or like if you're in a group of me and you're in a like I think traveling with people is particularly hard because the dynamics are closed and like you maybe get annoyed by this one person.

And like so it's not that I couldn't recognize it totally, but I'm with you. It was not how I experience my close female friendships. And I do worry, maybe less in the context just of White Lotus, but in the context of like in general, why we're so invested in a narrative of like women being bad to each other and who does that serve? And I don't think it's winning. So. Yeah. If it's not serving women, we should think about where the narrative might be coming from. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I've also been thinking about it in the context of anti-heroes because I love an anti-hero female. And I love stories with female rage and all of that. But even in my reading habits, what I've noticed

is like a character who is a straight up bitch. Right. It really, it doesn't work. And I know it does work for some people too. And there's no judgment. But I've even just noticed it in my reading habits where I'm like, I don't really want someone who is entirely careless. Like, so I agree. I feel like it's kind of like a bigger part of this like conversation also about women needing to feel like they can be more assertive and set boundaries and stand up for themselves. Like all of that needs to happen.

But like at the cost of being mean to other people, like sometimes doesn't work for me as much in stories. Totally. Totally. And I guess it's like to whom are they being mean, too. You know, like there's, I enjoy a bitchy character, but as long as you feel like for the most part, they're punching up. Or it's just their inner monologue that is like funny and snarky. Or is like protecting a vulnerability or, you know, to like to what end is somebody just being mean for means that's not that interesting to me.

It's not to me. That doesn't, it doesn't really do anything for me. And I agree. It's kind of like, because like I'm a. champion of unlikable female characters, but then every now and then I'm even reading one. And I'm like, I just, I don't like this. Which, like, I just DNF it. Not that big of a deal.

But since you also listen to that podcast and just to wrap it a little bit on this one, she talks about how time is almost a religion, is the, is the, boil it down. That's part of what she's talking about. And when Mike White was talking about it and the way that he thinks about what gives him meaning and then he starts he gets choked up talking about how storytelling is his meaning maker and religion. And I was getting choked up driving because I like it's very flowery melodramatic language to say religion like story telling is my religion story. whatever but i connected with that so much even though i have never finished writing a book but engaging

with story makes me feel the exact same way obviously or i would not have 200 and however many episodes of me just talking about stories it's life affirming it's like be building it's like i i agree with you i really love that part too and he talked about and this is exactly how i feel which is like you get to live all these other different lives and like yes yeah it was so interesting to hear him compare it to Buddhism, where he's basically like, that's about being like, there is no self, like I am part of the collective. Like I am, there is no identity. There's like you're trying to shed your desires. You're trying to like be more minimalistic. And he's like all of that, yes. But actually, I'm a maximalist and where I find like my sense of like God essentially or like what

is my God's like telling stories and like living more lives. And I like the way those two are the inverse but also the same. I love. I know. I have chills just thinking about it again. Totally. And I, yeah, I am with you. That really resonated with me too. And that was the part that I was most, yeah, I agreed. I agreed with that too. That is part of why I write. And I think why everyone reads too is you get to live more lives. You get to be. That's how I feel. You know? Yeah. Totally. It's, um, oh, where was I going with that? Oh, I started following someone on TikTok and I will make sure that I give her the correct shout out in the show notes. Who she's essentially, she approaches spirituality from like a sociological, psychological.

She has like all of these different approaches to just taking in all kinds of spirituality and meaning making. I'm going to try to keep it short. But someone sent her in a question about like the difference. between atheist and agnostic was kind of like at the heart of it. And then and then someone was also asking like, I think there's also a stereotype that atheists are these really angry people. Does atheism work in the long run for some people? And was asking from the sociological and then like individual level. And she had a fascinating answer where she said that the atheists or agnostics

who find ways to meet the needs that religion meets other people's needs tend to still do very well over the long term, just like people who do have religious beliefs can do well over the long term. But the question was about over the long term, do they start to kind of feel meaningless? And so she lists some of those things. And she's like, do they find a way to process grief and death? do they, did they find a community that, that helps them feel supported? That's a big part of why a lot of people go to church and almost aren't very Christian to bring it back to Victoria. Totally. And then like, and if they can find a way to have, to have it like a divine conversation with

themselves and to understand themselves on a different level and then find something that has meaning to them about how they want to interact in the world, those people who meet those needs tend to then be fine. And it's the people who don't get those needs met that you see sharing like such angry, hateful stuff towards Christians because like they haven't had their needs met. Sure. So I thought that was so fascinating to me. That took out to me because I could, I had answers for like the ways that I have created the meaning for myself in that way, which is like deconstructing is very scary at first. sure but now I was able to be like oh I see where I have those things and so when Mike white was talking about how story helps like I've gotten a lot of things from story that have been meaning making to me that have been community that have been like a way for me to understand and interact with the world it's helped me even go in inside and reflect on myself and then there's the fact that it helps you feel other people's experiences which is like

feels religious to me in the sense of like this story that we're saying. So when he was saying that, I think that's also a part of why it connected with me so much is like I do find so much meaning in stories. I do feel like I understand other perspectives so much through story. So I just, I just agreed with him so much. I totally agree. And I think that's interesting. And I'm curious, I want you to share that person's name so I can look up there to

talk about. And I, I mean, we don't have to turn this into a conversation. about religion necessarily. Although I really... And it is the story of the season two. Totally, totally, which I loved, you know, actually. And like, I'm somebody who doesn't... Didn't grow up going to church would identify, you know, kind of vaguely.

Like, if we went to a church, it was like Episcopalian. So, like, that's sort of... To be honest with you, not really my thing. And I feel like the... I have done more work. as an adult about kind of that conversation, like what's meaningful to me and where do I find humanity and like how do I find meanings in my life and like other people's lives things, you know, outside of like a religious framework. But I was watching it and being like,

you know, I'm not saying I'm like interested in converting to Buddhism because I don't know enough about it and it's a little appropriation need to just be like, sure, that's my thing. But like there's so many things about it that I am like, I think this is like meditation, learning to sit with yourself, learning to try to like, it was so beautiful to me that moment, although you're also watching it being like, oh, I don't think you should say this to this man. When Papa Ratliff goes in and he talks to the monk who I think is supposed to be analogous to the monk who I think passed away a few years ago, Tiknod Han, who was this great, like, Buddhist teacher. And I have several of his books in a person.

They're great. Yeah. But like where he's like, what happens when we die and he's like, we're water. We return to the water. I loved that. I was so comforted by that. Even as watching as a viewer, you're like, I don't think you should be saying that to this man.

And like, like, his job to know. But you know that because this man is like suicidal and or having like fantasy killing his family, like what I don't really want is for him to be like, it'll all be fine. You know, like,

I'll be water. Right. It's going to be good for them. It's great. But, yeah, there was, there was so much about it that I found really like thought provoking.

It was interesting to me where I was like, you know what I do want to do. meditation more. And like today I tried doing like a walking meditation where you don't listen to anything. You're just observing your surrounding and try to be more mindful and like in your body. And just like how good that is for us and how easy it is to get connected to things that aren't like the world around you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it speaks to the themes of all of white lotus, which is no matter where you know, there you are. Totally. And to what I think Natasha Rothwell was talking. about this in the in las cultureista she was saying like these incredibly wealthy people every single

season you're like oh i can finally go on vacation and turn my brain off and then they're like oh i don't have any of my distractions i'm here alone with my brain and that's what causes all of the problems on this show totally totally and like yeah it really does and it's and i think also is like for many of us too right like i even myself i noticed like how much more I tend to like since the pandemic just be like input all the time podcast on all the time and like nope we have to learn to like sit with ourselves um I know it feels like you're bringing up um to talk about the belinda of it all such a good time I it's okay if we're not aligned but I kind of hope we're aligned because I'm so lit about it so fascinating okay before you start talking

really fast I actually felt this was the storyline where I felt most anchor. just throughout the episode. I was so worried about Greg and was just like, oh, God, oh God, please don't kill Natasha. Like that's like the one thing I was like, please don't kill her. Just please. I was so nervous for her too because I'm like, just, just please don't do it. And we had that a couple episodes ago where she's like, can I get one fucking break in this life? And I was so scared. I was like, are they, is she saying that because she's going to finally get a break? her because we're going to killer. I know, right?

Now we know it works. Okay, what is your take on it and how it's hear it? Let a rip, sister. So here's where I'm at, guys. The dramatic microphone. I had to pick it up because I've got to hold on to something because I was getting so mad about this. And Tyler hasn't seen the first season.

So it's like it's not something I could rant to him because you need the first season context. Yeah. So they're a parallel. In the first season, if anyone didn't watch the first season, I'll do a very quick recap of this scenario. If you were just a season three watcher, in season one, Tanya, who is an incredibly ostentatiously, independently wealthy white woman, goes to, where's the first one out. I can't remember where it's at. It's white.

She's not the ashes, I think, and she's spreading the ashes, right? It's like part of the region. Yes, of her mom. Yeah. It goes so poorly. which ashes just always go poorly in a TV show like if someone's trying to spread ashes unless it's a truly depressing movie something's going to go wrong um but she stays at the resort where natasha or belinda is the masseuse there as well and they kind of form a friendship somewhat it's a little bit one direction and it's a little bit codependent and it's a little bit tanya being like oh i can talk to this woman So in that season, she does offer to invest. These are the important details to me in case you couldn't tell.

She offers to invest in Belinda going out on her own and creating her own spa or starting her own spa, essentially. To the point that Belinda builds a business proposal because she asks her to even see a business proposal. So there's a power imbalance here very clearly. also because Natasha Rathwell is black and her character is black. The other thing is you can listen to Natasha Rofwell talk about how when Mike White reached out to her she said, I'm interested, but like this black woman

in a servant's role and the way things are going to play out, like I would love to work with you on this character. So she and Mike White worked together even on the first season to change some things where she was like, here's, I know. She's like, here's how I think we could tweak this and whatever and there's still blowback mike white i think references in the podcast or natasha did there's still a little blowback about that um in season three she like kind of meets this guy named porn chai um they're not married they have not professed

love for each other uh he kind of floats the idea where he's like it would be cool if we could because he's missus too it would be cool if we could start something on our own sleep together. Yes. They both. Thank you. Maybe another time that was off screen. That's what I was about to say. But I don't think, I don't think he was happening all the time because her son gets there. Um, and to me, everyone, there are memes and jokes about when you go on vacation. You're like, we should just move here. Like, you're on vacation. You're in a different place. You're with people. You're just saying stuff. You're like, this would be fun. He says it to her. This would be fun. She's like, yeah, I mean, it would be. And I think she even says something along the line. So I don't know how that would happen, but like, sure, whatever. So then she gets the $5 million, as we know. And she goes and talks to him and tells him, like, things have really changed. You can tell she's sad about it a little bit for him.

She's like, things have just changed. I just need to go live my life like this. This dude barely knows her. Now, the internet. there are a lot of people talking about how disappointed they are in Belinda and that how they're like, this proves that money corrupts. This is Mike White saying that everyone who gets money is like a piece of shit immediately. People are coming for her so hard and using stuff like disappointed and selfish and she did the same thing.

There are parallels. And she did not do the same thing. She did not come into the show an independently, obscenely wealthy white woman. like she did not come into the show that way and there are some things that are interesting to me about it knowing that Natasha Rathwa was a part of this decision um and that she wanted to kind do the same thing but do it differently and she does leave him differently and there's an interesting part about it where people are like it proves that like the second you have money you don't want to work I'm trying not to sound like a white savior

as well as like what I'm trying that to go so hard but also something that I've experienced a lot on TikTok since the election. 92% of black women voted for Kamala. And there's like a trend amongst black women who did, which is almost all of them who are like the 92% is done. We're tired. We're tired of cleaning up your messes. We're tired of having to advocate for ourselves. We're tired of having to do it all. Like we're tired. We need a break. Like we are resting. This was y'all's fault. We did what we could. And like, um, like the soft like soft life is like a, I am not black so I feel bad. But it, it's a big conversation that I've seen on TikTok with black women creators that I follow. And so even kind of in that context, there is such a big part

of me that I'm like, let her fucking live. Yeah. This is not saying she never. wants to work again in her life. But I bet her life has been differently difficult than all of these people here, let her live. So that's, that's my rant. I love that rant. I love that perspective. I, I, I think I straddle a little bit both sides only, but in very different ways. Because I actually, I'm totally, and I, I found that to be like this gloriously human moment that I enjoyed. Like, can I be rich for five fucking minutes? Like, do I talk to immediately? Like, at, you know, And I thought that was great. I think they are drawing a parallel.

And I do think to some degree, you can't divorce race from it because there are not many black people on White Lotus. But I think there is a way in which Mike White is essentially saying, like, to be wealthy is to essentially put yourself. Like, I don't know that there's a good way. To be able to put. Yeah. that like and so I think they are drawing like there is a little bit of a parallel with her in um but I agree with everything you're saying right Tanya is a woman of white and she's like all these different things and this is like a very different scenario and it's also a different scenario

because there was no way for her not to take that money you know what I mean yes and she had to leave she needed to get away he had to leave there was no way to stay in Thailand to be honest I was like the second Greg was like you should come to my house I was like get this woman off off the eye to like get out of freelance. You know, like, you should not be here. This is bad. So I, like, there was no way for her not to take the money,

you know? Correct. The part that I struggle with more is, I don't know how we're supposed to read that moment from an ethical position of her not taking the money doesn't bring Tanya back. And it's the only thing she can do

in terms of keeping herself and her son safe, right? Like if she doesn't take the money, she's a threat to him and he's going to kill her. Yes. And also I want her to win. Like of any character, do I want her to win? But there's also a way in which, like,

you're like, it is still blood money and she takes it. And there's no way not to. And I don't know how we're supposed, I don't know if we're supposed to read that as a victory or a tragedy. Do you know what I mean? That is the part that I was a little bit like. Because is she going to be scared her whole life? I would still be a little scared for the rest of my life.

Is she, is it going to sit on her conscience of I am being quiet about knowing that this man, where this man is and that he might have facilitated this woman's death, even though we know it was actually weirdly like not, yeah. It's responsible, but not in the way that like, you know, technically he was a tempted murder from him. Right. And like she wouldn't have been on that boat if not for, you know, so. But she still died.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, so I don't know. So that to me, that to me was the part I had the hardest time squaring, not even the like, is she or is she not being Tanya McQuod version 2.0. Because I agree with you. It's also pretty like out of pocket for like her and porn try to spend one night together. And he's like, what if we create our own spa? You're like easy. Like really like it's a lot to ask of a person. And she's not going to stay there. No. Yeah, I just don't know how we're supposed to read that. I don't know if we're supposed to read it. me it feels paralleled to guy talk a little bit, which to me feels like much cleaner tragedy, even though I would say in that podcast, Mike White did not read it that way. Or like, he kind of didn't. No, he was kind of like, to me, that felt like the darkest part of the show was like this man has compromised his ideals and essentially is now dating a girl who like only wants

him if he's a killer. Like yes. And murders Rick, essentially. Let's be honest. Like he was walking away carrying a body. He was not an immediate threat to Guy Talk at that moment or anyone. So, yeah, so that was the part about Belinda that I just, I struggled with. And like, I think that's kind of what I was saying earlier where it's like, I feel like in the context of the show, I'm supposed to be reading that as a victory.

And I do sort of. But also as a viewer watching it, I'm like, oh, I don't know, though, you know? She took money. She did. And like, I want her to be happy and she deserves a nice life. And I'm so glad she didn't die. And also it's kind of sad. Yeah.

So there's a version of me that is so practical that sometimes my morality on this one is kind of what you pointed out of like, Tanya's not going to come back to life. Right. She isn't. And do I think Greg's going to really murder anyone else? I kind of don't actually at this point. So there is, which you, and you pointed that out at the beginning of what you're saying, there's a little bit of a practicality or I'm like, get your bag. Like, if there's an opportunity, there's an opportunity. There's the other part of me that would be anxious the rest of my life.

There's just no denying that. Yeah. But then are you anxious? Are you not anxious if you turn it down? Well, no. And what do you do? Practicality, I think there was legitimately no way she could have turned it down. Yeah.

Turn it down. You're signing a death warrant, to be honest. like so there was no good so maybe i think she had the best possible outcome of what she was working with yeah but it's still like complicates her moral character in a way that's like interesting slash it like i don't know how to read it always and again and then but then to your point too like i also really like that she wasn't just this like perfect i think there's also something a little, I think sometimes writing, you don't want to, you don't want a character of color to be uncomplicated either. You know what I mean? Like, if her whole job is to be like the

moral center of the White Lotus, that's another type of emotional labor that's not fair to put on this character. Magical. Get your bag. I don't know if I should say the next word, but that's what it's, I don't know if I'm supposed to say that word either, but yes. So get your bag, but also, yeah, I guess you come out of it being like, no one's, no one's all good. And I guess that's true of life, you know, I don't know. So there's that. It speaks to that theme. But my, one of my fun theories that I'm probably a little too proud of.

What it also speaks to is to me, this show basically said, like, everyone is hurt by toxic masculinity. And when you're in the orbit of a very distrable. man, you suffer the consequences as well. And so in some ways, I hadn't even thought of how Belinda's actually counts. Belinda's counts because that toxic masculinity is part of why it's like, I might kill you if you don't take the money. I might kill you if you do take the money. So it's kind of like even, so even she's kind of pulled into the orbit of someone else's problem. Yeah. Then we have Chelsea. That one's textbook. You've staying. in the orbit of a destructive man, you'll be destroyed as well.

Lockland was almost that. And I'll say my quick, well, no, we'll talk about my theory about them when we talk about them on the boat. Lockland almost had the same thing happen. So at the time that I made the theory up, I thought Lockland was dead too. But Guy Talk, interestingly, and what you're saying, is also still the victim of toxic masculinity because it has informed her version of thinking you're not enough of a man unless you can kill someone.

Totally. And so he's willing to kill someone because of her the way masculinity has been presented to her. For sure. For sure. That was your that's such a good point and such a good thing to draw and like you're so right. And it is it is interesting right. Because I do think that there are like toxic masculinity is also upheld by women a lot. Like this is such a small thing.

Even the idea of like people being like, I don't want to date a man who's under six foot. And it's like, what's that about? Have you unpacked that? And like all this different where it's, it's really just about, you know, some version of a standard you have in your head about what that tells you about how masculine this man is, which tells you how feminine you are. And like, all that's bullshit. Could we get, could we be done with it? But like, yes. Yeah. We all have both energies. Totally. Just thrown out. And like the guy talk MOOC thing is so, oh, that one to me was like the darkest in some way. where it's like he he felt like the character to me in some way who was the moral center of a little like he was bad at his job first of all we have to be honest about that. So bad at his job.

All those memes were hilarious. And then to be like, oh, I want to be nonviolent. I am a Buddhist. I have these beliefs. And then at the end he just sells it all upriver. And he's like an armed man. like you're saying yeah and he's in the car and he's smiling and he's yes and you're just like to me that was so to me that was so dark and it was interesting in that podcast you sent me to

listen to mike white talk about it where he's like i think it is a happy end you're happy you wanted mook and i was like to me it felt so noir if like my one of my favorite definitions of noir is like you get what you want but the thing you want actually like destroys you like it is bad and like that self-destruction is such a part of it's like you're such a part of it's like you're not you're such a part in noir yeah yeah he is like he's just like he he gets what he wants he gets the girl he gets the status he gets the job but it's destroyed him and so like i was watching that and so to have that moment of him driving away felt like dark as night to me just like i think so too and it made me wonder when mike says yeah i think they're happy i think he also plays a lot with like what's happiness

versus like fulfillment so in some ways i'm like is he like yeah there's they're happy and maybe and I could be reading into it. But like you can think you're happy and then realize like, oh, that was really shallow that that wasn't what I was looking for. Also, it makes me think of it. It just blew my mind a little bit. The parallels, and I never thought of this, the parallels between Victoria and MOOC.

Like, like, Luke is young Victoria, right? Like, she essentially is like, I expect you to be like this. And if you're not, I'm gone. And like, boy. There was only one scene in. this entire show where it made me actually where I experienced the most empathy I've ever felt for a rich white man who

like embezzled his money. And I feel like it was episode five or six. It was before the moon party. But when she said they kind of have a conversation, it's after his first suicidal ideation, I think, because I think she walks out to the table when he had his first one where he's about to like kill himself and then he can't do it. Yeah, he's just going to kill himself, essentially. essentially at that point. You're right. That's what it was. Um, and they have some kind of conversation where like, it's very clear. It's not the one where she's like, I don't think I'm meant to live in non-crumptural life. It's before that. But it is before that and it's that sentiment where

she's just like, this is what we do. And it might be the time that she's like, we need Popper to be as afraid of poverty as the rest of us. Totally. It might have been that. And that's where he's like feeling even worse and it was the first time I experienced more of the empathy where like sometimes I have been hurt by misogyny or been felt constrained by it or had to overcome what I'd been told I should be and it was the first time that like I really felt bad for someone who truly had believed his entire life that he is only worth his money. That is all that matters about himself. And the only version of being a family man and a good stand-up man with the American dream is you got to get that money at all costs so that you can provide.

And that's like all that matters. And it's like when he started singing a hymn at the end of that episode and he's even falling back, he's like not Catholic, but he's falling back on it. I felt very, very empathetic for him and was like, oh, like, that's even showing like toxic masculinity has enforced. his view of what his only self-worth is. If you didn't have any other place where you had self-worth, of course you're suicidal. I did feel bad. Right.

Like he would rather kill himself than admit to his wife that I'm not the person you think I am because he handled the, like maybe that's the only reason she loves him and she's with him. Like I agree. And part of it is like he's such a good actor. Jason Isaac. Like his eyes. It is.

Yeah. And it is hard to, again, also find empathy for a white man who is just like, embezzled money and just himself. But I'm with you. I felt it for him too where you're like, oh, he's trapped. And it's a trap of his own making and it's a trap of privilege and it's like all this stuff. But like he also doesn't know how to get out of it. He doesn't have tools. He doesn't have. He has money is the only tool he's ever had. He doesn't know how to cope. Yeah. I felt I felt so bad for him. I let's talk about them on the boat. Okay. Well, one more. Yeah. One more. This might be. This might be.

make more sense. Saxon. So this ties into that scene we talked about that I thought was so powerful. Like when in the, I think it was the penultimate episode, when Chelsea says something about the men over there, he's like, you know, those girls are only with them because they have money. And she's like, yeah, and that's going to be you in 30 years. So that's when he goes to his ad. And he's like, dad, this is all I have. We're okay. Right. And then he's like, you shall be killed now too. But he's feeling the same thing that has gotten his dad to this point and great storytelling again. And he's also like, he gave me a job. I'm spiraling.

You know, like this poor kid has a bit on his mind. I know. He has had a lot happen that he was not expecting to happen to. But Saxon and Chelsea, then that was where it probably makes sense to do. that before they get on the boat because this all happens before then. Yeah. I don't know. I saw, first of all, I understand. Yes, he's more attractive when there's a hint of emotion in him. I'm jaded. I have very little hope in narcissists, even less hope in wealthy narcissists. For sure. People started shipping them in that moment where they were like on the bed, not me. And they were like,

she felt the connection. And I'm like, no, she did not. She was like, oh, this is the angle he's working again. And he's going to be like, oh, I'm spiritual because I sat here and touched teams with you in lotus pose. Like, okay. Great acting when he looks at Chelsea as she runs away and he looks really sad and he looks conflicted. And he looks like he's feeling stuff he doesn't understand. He really, Patrick deserves his. It's like the Megan Fahey moment from last season.

Like I keep seeing it compared to that. Yeah. It is fantastic acting. do I think it's because he loves her? I kind of don't even think that that's what it is. I think there's a part of him that's like, what am I feeling in general? And then like her running to Rick,

he's like, what would that be like in general? I kind of don't know if I think he was like in love and love with her. It also did not sell me on thinking he completely changed. There's like I'm hard pressed to think he's going to completely change when he gets home. Yeah, I agree. I think I was not shipping them ever. and in fact I was very glad the show did not go in that direction because I was worried for a minute and I was like, I don't want me too. I didn't either. Do I think I think she was a little attracted to him on the bed and that's why she like panicked and zoomed off. I think she assessed him rightly as a creepy operator, but I think there was a part of her that maybe liked it a little bit, but she wasn't going to act on it. I agree with you. I there was to me there was nothing to ship there. Like he's he's an asshole and like, well,

there's there's no reason for them to be together like it just didn't make sense i i read that moment where he has the emotion and is i i too did not read it about being about her like oh i've lost her i almost thought to me it felt like he's looking at what is clearly their connection and it's like oh yeah what's i don't have that you know like almost sort of like a probably ever has right i've never had that and i want that and like that that he's seeing something like authentic about their relationship that maybe is something he has not, which is so the opposite of him basically being like, I just want to sleep with as many women and that's the whole thing. So to me it was maybe like the germ of a seed of the idea that like actual connection might be

richer. And but it wasn't about Kelsey specifically as much as it was the like this idea of something different. And so I did have like, listen, in real life, do I believe that person is going to change? No, except that his world is about to be rocked. so he's going to have to change in some way. But like I did like that the show gave us the seed of that moment and him also reading some of her books,

even if he was doing it kind of to like flirt with her a little bit. It gave me the hope without going. I would have really hated for him to have a full redemption arc, but it planted the idea that maybe there could be more to him than he had been before he came on this trip. Do you know what I mean? That like perhaps there was a little bit of him that could be enlightened or made more deep because i think that's true of anybody honestly right like if you do

the work you could and like maybe he will and significant of speaking of stories inciting events can happen at any time in your life when something does prompt you to change yeah now somehow it seemed like the rat lifts missed the entire gun battle like that's where i was interested in as well i saw something that said that there's honestly nothing i saw something that said that there's honestly nothing more American than just riding the boat away after a mass shootout in it not even feeling like something to discuss. And I was like, every day. Yeah.

It's so important. I was like, okay, you are right. You're a little bit right with that one. Yeah. Island is just like home, you know. Oh, my gosh. I saw a meme or whatever that was like, sorry. Tyler texted me. I got

whatever interrupted in the midst of this. Victoria. Where am I going with this? Oh, they were like Victoria, Victoria on that boat back. And it's the screenshot of Morgan Wallens, get me to God's country. And I'm like, that is so hurt. That's like, just me to North Carolina.

That's totally. Oh, my God. So there's also that. how okay people have feelings about not seeing the family's reaction to finding out how do you feel I'm not very bothered by it and I told Tyler because he he kind of felt that way too I told him which made me think of you and how we talked about not tying up everything at the end I said I was like I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong for how they end up like feeling subjectively about it but sometimes with books

I think we did talk about this with the Hurricane Blonde. I'll have to look because that would be cool to pull. But I know how they're going to handle it. Like, I know. I don't necessarily need the reactions. I can imagine. And I understand why if you want to see it. Yeah.

And the jokes that are like, oh, you want to know, just go watch Shits Creek. I've got a great recommendation for you. I've seen those two and I agree. But I understand people wanting to. And I also heard, I don't know, again, I can't remember which podcast. I think it might have been Natasha saying that where did it go? What did Natasha say? Oh, the story is about White Lotus always. It's not about what happens back home. So I saw that as a justification to but I don't know how you feel about it. You know, I kind of go back and forth about it because

there's a part of me that did feel a little bit like we're not going to see it. Like we've been building up to this revelation for eight episodes. You know what I mean? But there is also another part of me that's like, how could we have seen it in any way? Like if you're going to show that, it's almost like then you have to like follow them back to North Carolina and see their whole life. You know what I mean? Like it's like it's too much story to get in a wrap up. So I guess I'm of two minds. There was a part of me that felt unsatisfied that I didn't get it.

And there was a part of me that was like, but I don't know that there could have been real satisfaction here either. You know? And you're right. that is, I actually do think we talked about that with the Hurricane Blonde where it was sort of like the ending. There's something that happens in the end of my book where I was almost like, yeah, but if we really go in on this, like it's a whole other book. Like how do you finish it? You know? Now, the piece that I had, my little most contrarian moment, I did not love that Jason Isaacs, who I loved as an actor, loved what we saw was his real piece.

us. I think it was a prosthetic, but still. I thought he was great the whole season. Sorry, Duke. One of my friends said I just watched to see Jason's Isaac, little Isaac or big Isaac. And I was like, oh my God, that is memeworthy. That's amazing. I didn't love that he got the kind of moment of breaks there on the boat where he like looks out into the water and he sees the water and it's almost like the spiritual moment. Yeah. And I was like,

this man tried to kill his family less than 23 hours ago and there has been no fallout from that like I'm sorry. Rockland didn't wake up and be like, what the fuck happened? You know, we didn't get into emergency room and say we should pump his stomach just in case. Like they're just, again, you know, we don't need that because that's more pragmatic than thematic. But like I guess I didn't feel like of all the characters, I felt like he had earned the sort of redemption moment. you know i completely agree and then this was another conversation i had with sam yadabai uh i completely agree he didn't earn it and i wonder if that's thematic yeah so something interesting to me is what

i think is the wealthiest family that was there all of that happens like dad almost kills all of them dad almost accidentally kills locklin uh piper doesn't give a fuck about buddism yeah my first my buddism the second she's like bye i like my life um so does it also speak to the fact that like sometimes being so fucking uber wealthy means you get away with so much than everyone else that was like the one where i could resolve it was like are we also like and there was no loss for that family. Like Chelsea probably not, I don't know if they're even married. I don't think she and Rick are necessarily married.

I think Chelsea's not very wealthy. And then I feel like Rick probably isn't as wealthy as an embezzler. So I couldn't tell if that's how it like fits the theme. Like is it is it that like of course they actually still got away with like no one died? they have to go back to bad life but no one died right right right I think right and I think there's also like going back again to the podcast which I guess we're like doing a podcast that's also really talking about this other yeah but like where Mike White is talking about identity and this man's struggle is that he's having to admit to something that like upends who everyone believes he is and that I guess there is something about

about having that moment right before he finally decides like our life like he tells them essentially our lives are going to try to deny it. He doesn't say like I didn't do it, although he doesn't say I did it. But, you know, like, maybe it's a, maybe that's the triumph we're supposed to read. But again, kind of going back to what I said earlier, there, I just feel like there were a couple of moments where I was queued to view something and view that like, I didn't feel having come this, like watching this season. I'm like that read like it was a triumphant moment. And yet I'm like, I don't know. That man like, that man. Like, that man. couldn't be bothered to wipe out a blender and he stole all his wife's lorazepam and he tried to kill his

family and like and i do have empathy less than 12 hours ago or like 12 hours ago pretty much and so but it just yeah it just sort of felt like and he's like and then he sees the water and he understands and he like sees this thing and i'm like i don't know i still have a few questions for him i do too yeah i didn't feel very bad for him when it was like well with mental health there's like an interesting thing where like you really can have a lot of suicidal ideation without being considered suicidal, I guess, is kind of what I'm trying to say. So at one point, I was like, are, are we just seeing the ideation? Are we just seeing how dramatic it feels inside? Like, is, is this that? Like, we're kind of, we're seeing how much, he's so conflicted that this is the only

thing his brain could think of. When we crossed into him literally almost doing, uh, whatever, that murder, suicide, like, however many words need to explain the whole family, I was like, this is, not okay. It's so dark. And it's so, and you know, he does give that crazy insane speech where he's justifying it to himself. My job is to protect you. So like I'm going to, you're going to die before you find out that our life is a lie.

But it is also like pretty hard from the outside to not just be like, fucked up, man. It's really fucked up. I mean, like in some ways, I was so sad when Lockland might have been dying. Yeah. I thought someone had to, though, in that family. You know, that's why I wasn't even thinking like, oh, his eyes are going to open later. I kind of think they, like, sorry to Lachlan, but I kind of think the stronger choice would have been to leave him dead.

I think so, too. I think so, too, which I think this is, again, what brought me to, like, was that supposed to be a part of the theme that, like, of course, it still works out for them. Like, that's the only thing I can kind of reconcile it with, because otherwise I thought someone was going to have to die. like someone too i thought so too that it was almost going to be like like he needed to i mean i guess they are losing something but he needed to lose something as a consequence of yes other choices he had made because everyone else that was happening like someone else's self-destructive behavior yeah was wreaking havoc right yeah and they got out fairly unscathed except you know for he's going to jail i saw so since we're zeroing in on how

it's also about death. I'm going to be that person who I saved this TikTok because I thought this was so good about death. Oh, I love this. Tell me, tell me if you can't hear it. The White Lotus finale wasn't really about who died. It was about what we let die in ourselves. We choose ego over love, control, over connection, comfort, over peace. Rick chose vengeance and lost Chelsea, the one person who offered him the love he'd been chasing his whole.

life. Belinda chose what would protect her and had to let peace go. Guy Tau gave up his principles for our promotion and none of it felt over the top because we do it too. We want to feel safe so we perform instead of show up. We hold power instead of softness. We protect ourselves so well that we start losing the parts that made us feel alive. And then there was Lori's monologue, this raw, quiet moment where she admits she's been searching for meaning her whole life work love motherhood all of it came up short and what finally mattered was time the people beside her that she's here still showing up that even through the mess and the sadness she's just glad to be at the table because sometimes meaning isn't something we earn it's something we choose to stay present for my boy didn't write a twist he wrote a question one that just sits

there even after the credits roll what are you sacrificing just to feel safe because sometimes the cost of protection is everything you were trying to protect in the first place the white lotus which was like that last part was kind of what you brought up too early wasn't that isn't that so powerful i love the way she was really good yeah i will link her too because i was like wow and the way she pointed out that like also like Chelsea was even giving him the love that he was so obsessed that he didn't have in childhood. Like putting it that way even, you see how much more sad her line about like, why don't you just like enjoy the love you had?

I know. Which is like something. I think a lot of us do, even if it's not in that like extreme a way, but like you focus on the things that didn't go well or the people who didn't love you the way that they should have. And ignoring what is present in your life. And that I was like watching. I was like, well, noted white lewis going to bring that one in therapy this week.

Okay. You know. I know the amount of TV shows my therapist heard about through me, which especially now with his diet or his kind of monologue about how like, storytelling is religion. Of course she was getting to hear like, I read this book that said this. I watched this show that said this. I saw this movie. Hey, look at these lyrics.

Yeah. It helps me. I love story. I yeah I did too we have talked as long as the episode was oh my gosh you're right we just hit it I'm not surprised I'm I'm intrigued to see where he goes next I think we talked about it last episode I saw someone being like can we get snow and I'm like I'd be down but he sounds like he's just he mentioned that he sometimes has an idea and then they scout locations And then when they showed up in Italy, he was like, nope, I have a totally different idea.

So it sounds like he's just scouting the locations right now. So I don't know what it's going to be. I don't know either. What are your hopes? Like not necessarily predictions, but like, do you have anything where you'd be like, I would love to see one like this? That, okay. I wonder if it is just like the cold would be interesting to me.

But that's because I like, I like the cold. I don't overheat in the cold most of the time. some of it is like actors which gare and i did at when it started one of our like icebreakers was like who do you want to see in the next one so i think that's what's been kind of fun to think about like um oh who were the ones that were coming up for me i'm going to have to find that episode because there were a bunch of them but like jessica lang would be really fun we we had a fun conversation about that so it's always fun seeing unseeing too

which celebrities end up doing it like Issa Ray I think I said Issa Ray was one of mine oh my gosh I'd love to see her she's kind of connected to Natasha through insecure totally

I don't know when he did say that he was thinking about focusing that he might focus on fame again I'm a sucker for that so I was like give it give me all of it like her ashes of one lotus

yes yeah or like where do they well palm springs is somewhere where they go on a lot of trips and lake tahoe is like a lot of those trips so i don't know i feel like he kind of handles fame every now and then anyway a little bit with jacqueline but it's definitely never been like the thesis or whatever the biggest underlying theme totally but i love i love explorations of fame and i'm convinced it's because I could never be interested in mega fame. No, it seems not mega fame. So I think that's why it fascinates me. I agree. It is fascinating. I would love to see a white lotus take on that of like somebody

who is like, because you're right, we got that a little bit with Jacqueline, but like somebody who's like a superstar superstar in the way that that would offend things. And I know that it's about the white lotus and so it's not going to be this. But there is a part of me that it's like, I do think they should have somebody next season who like references the fact that people keep dying at the one. I think you're right. Whether it's a podcaster or a police detect or something, somebody who comes in is like,

why does this keep happening? Like we've gotten to a point where we're being addressed, you know? I think you're right because they would come up. It just would. It just would. People would maybe not stay there. Like how many people die at a regular resort yearly?

You know, like that's my question because like it feels like it shouldn't be this high. Palm Springs could be interesting. Yeah, I wonder, I mean, I don't know. The snow could be cool. I think I would rather, if they do snow, I would want it to be like, I don't know, Switzerland or something. Like, yeah, the Alps or Shenzhoups. Yeah, a little more people talk about. Something so interesting, even in Hawaii, the brush up of culture, right?

Like the, I think that is sort of like the conversation that they're having of like these white people, not just white people, but like often white people going and removing themselves and trying to be like, I'm just like here for vacation, but like you're stepping into a world that is different from your from your own in these ways. And like, so I don't know. I, I don't know. We'll see. I know. He'll come up with it and we'll love it. He says he fascinates me endlessly like, like this dude wrote School of Rock. This dude wrote the despicable me movies. Yes. He freaks and geeseekes and Geeks, Survivor, like, the dude has so much range. Yeah, he does. Which I think, you know what?

I've been having that dual experience with Seth Rogen in the studio because he just write some of the most fascinating stuff and he also wrote the hot dog movie. Totally, totally. And you're like, you contain multitudes. Yes. Yeah, they do remind me of that. And sometimes I'm like, that's a good thing to remember. Like, even if you write something, it doesn't mean everyone's going to love everything else,

you write too, you know? I'm just trying to remind myself. Yeah, that's so true. And it's interesting. I was having a conversation with somebody earlier this week about, like, which he pointed out, which I hadn't really thought of. Mike White doesn't use a writer's room. Like, and is, is one of the few, like, shows that he's, like, writing all of it himself.

Wow. Which is impressive. But my friend's point that I think is a good one is, like, that's not great for writers. You know what I mean? Like, it's like denying an opportunity of people who could be in the room and being like, I worked on White Lotus and stuff. But I think to that end, you also get things like the Sam Rockwell monologue, which was my favorite moment on television ever because it is my right and his vision. And he's seeing how it ties into all these things thematically, you know?

The way he talked about, and I had never even, I guess, considered it, how like his gayness is him being attracted to his sameness is what he was breaking down as compared to heterosexual. relationships where as you and I have already said, everyone's a mixture of stuff. But he was even saying it just seems a little more clear cut in a heterosexual, in a heterosexual relationship. My mouth didn't want to say that word. But I hadn't even thought of that monologue, having been written by a gay man, that that kind of also gave him the unique perspective of being like, I like sleeping with Asian girls. Do I want to be an Asian girl? girl. I was like, that's fascinating the way that like permeated or percolated in his mind. Totally. Totally. And it made me think about desire too, that monologue and the podcast of like,

truly what is desire? You know, like when he was saying, he said on the podcast like, you sleep with somebody who's like young and beautiful, but that doesn't make you young and beautiful. You're just like visiting this for a time. And like I was thinking about that of like, what is desire? But like, I guess the, the hope of like acquiring or possessing the thing that you've I'm interactive in the other person for a short while, but it doesn't actually change. And then I was like, well, is that desire or is desire connection? I think there's a whole span of things. But I think often, like, you know, sometimes it is like wanting to like somehow possess

that person's like beauty or whatever it is. Well, and that's kind of like you hear it more in either bisexual or lesbian like music or the culture where you hear them talking. about like I was so obsessed with my friend I just wanted to like live in her skin I was so obsessed with her and like she was so cool and I just wanted to be here and then they're like and then I realized like I was attracted to her so you even get that's something you hear a lot yeah so it's like there is like yeah it's interesting how confusing that can get when you're like does this mean I want to be this person am I attracted like what am I feeling totally and I loved again I think

we already talked about this, so I won't relitigate it too long. But like that, yeah, just the way that he like, Sam Rockwell in that moment, which again, it's a character who's written. But I love that he had like gone so deep into his desire that he had like come out the other side. And he was like, actually what I want is to be like seeing myself like fucking this girl. Like it was just so. Yeah.

And I was just like. And extremely introspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved it. And not judgmental. that's like the other that's the hardest part sometimes about looking at yourself clearly is the like judgment that you bring to the situation and he's just like i don't know i was thinking about these things totally and then like to watch walt and gaggins just like receive it you know and also be like very non-judgmental but sort of like yeah oh she's like wow a lot has happened

exactly like we have been thoughtful in thailand i know yeah and on it and then in the finale though which it's sad that he lost his sobriety. But when he's running down that hallway, it's like a cheetah print, a cheetah print speedo. Oh my God. Such chaotic energy. I was also like, okay, so Rick destroys everything he touches. Got it. You know. There you go. That is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Men destroy everything that touch. No, not all men. That's not all men, but hashtag most men. And also, I will just, just say this very quickly. For the not all men, but always a man. Not all men, but always a man who doesn't

wipe out the murder blender. Um, yes. Wasn't impressed by the hitman not even Googling Cita Las movie career before they went to like, yes, the poor planning. That was so crazy. So then followed up by the idea that you would confront Hollinger and then go back to his resort. I was like, no. That's an after we've checked out move. That's a, like we're out of his. Like, I don't understand. It was so, that was the only thing that I felt like I, I couldn't really buy that he's supposed to be such a swath hitman and also made such amateur mistakes. And I sort of wish it had been addressed better. Because I was just like, because all those memes, there was a meme of them on the boat that it was like, if I send this

to you, it means I have done absolutely zero planning, but I'm going to do the presentation anyway. And then I saw someone on TikTok who was reacting to Belinda and her son, not being on the same page about something like there at the beginning. And they're like, what? Did they go to the Rick and Frank School of Preparations? I mean, seriously, though. Like, that is, I was like, what do you do? Like, get your ducks in a row, guys.

And for men who are supposed to be kind of like the cool cat, like hit men, you know? And I was just like, not one Google search, not at all. and not a single like call back to Chelsea being like up her bags and meet me outside like just like you don't go back to the hotel after you've threatened the owner you just don't you know people don't they are not thinking that's why they're dead well and that's what it is they're all in their feelings and this is the problem with acting on all of your feelings yeah again can't believe all of them For one good instinct he had to try to find the crisis counselor and she was like, I'm actually, that was. That is so heartbreaking. I know. Again, we won't put men's wrongs on a woman, but

certainly not, certainly not. Not sad. But also read the room, Amrita, you know. I know. I think Zion was okay. He looked kind of smiley. He was like having a nice day, you know. Yes, he was. Yes, he was. Not at $5 million. He'll be okay to wait, 20 minutes, you know? Right. Right. I don't know what I'm going to do with my Sundays anymore. For a brief period, I had severance on Thursday and White Lotus on Sunday. Now I don't have any of that. And we're probably going to lose TikTok again. So that's cool too. I guess I'll read a lot of books in the next few months. There you go. That's the answer. Do you watch Handmaid's Tale? I stopped a couple of years ago. It got two. It got two.

much it felt trauma porny to be honest i was already like it does of this reality i don't want to come to that's my thing i'm not using your hours i did end up watching the other the season i think it was three years ago too that one there are parts about that i love so much um so i think i was able to get through it but it's so it's so heavy you you have to go into it aware of how heavy it is and i was even asking because i just don't know if i can do it this year no no have Did you ever watch Top of the Lake with Elizabeth Moss? No. I watched The Shining Girls.

That's what it confused me for a second. No, I did see Top of the Lake. Top of the Lake, the first season is great. It's like a procedural, I think it's set in New Zealand or Australia, but I think it's New Zealand. And it's like this young girl is like there, I will say trigger warning for some like very sad things, especially like sexual assault and child abuse. But the first season is really.

good. I didn't watch the second season, but like this young girl goes missing, but she's 12 and she's pregnant. And so it's both a case of like, where did she go and why is she pregnant? And Moss is the detective in it and she's, she's really good. I need to, that kind of reminds me mayor of Easttown. Yeah. It's got a similar pregnancy, but it was similar like younger girl and like really what did happen. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very gritty. But it's got a similar pregnancy, but it's similar like younger girl and like really what did happen. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very gritty. But it's got a. But it. It's similar. It's similar. It's a it's got some good twists and turns in there, too. Nice.

Yeah. I know Black Mirror comes out eventually, and I do love Black Mirror. So I at least have that to look forward to. And did we ever talk about Poker Face with... No, we didn't. I need to Natasha Leone. I've watched part of the first season. I think I started binging it.

And then I stopped watching it because I started noticing that there was like such a formula to it where I actually think I should not binge it. I should like watch it a little more spaced out. but I really I love her and like love the I love the approach it is so formulaic it's like what's the detective that it's like there's literally one that it's the most like and I can't think of which one it was but the TV shows where it's like oh a person drives across the country for all kinds of different reasons and then solve something so it is I love her the comedy and it was typically pretty good and there were sometimes still some reveals where you're like oh I wasn't paying it have attention to catch that. And it's going to start airing again. Yeah. And it was a good mix of like dark, but also kind of capery and zany. So it didn't feel heavy. The way that like snare of East Town or something like that can feel kind of heavy. Like, and I appreciate it. It's not blue feel. It's a more golden. Totally. Totally. You're sort of. Exactly. Yeah. So I enjoyed that.

Yeah. Honestly, I think we shouldn't talk about it necessarily now because we're, deep into our conversation, but I am excited to one day talk about Agatha all along with you. We have to talk about Agatha all along. That'll be your next one.