Bookwild - Writing Updates, A Way to Create Without Shame, Changes in the Publishing Industry, Capitalism vs Creativity, and Many Many More Topics with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

This week, Halley Sutton and I catch up about where we are with our writing processes (spoiler: I am focusing more on building Bookwild than writing).Halley shares a new approach to writing that has worked for her that she found on TikTok.Halley also shares some insights into the traditional publishing industry and we discuss the appeal of self publishing. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week, I'm back with Hallie Sutton, and we have a lot to talk about, actually. And I'm, as we always do, I'm sure we'll kind of go all over the place. So welcome back. Thank you. I'm so happy to be back with you, Kate. Me, too. We have, yeah, we have tons to catch up on, I think. Absolutely.

So how's summer been treating you so far? What's been some of the highlights of your reading and writing and just your life? So the highlight, really, is that I completely have been. become an audiobook obsessed woman. I saw this. Okay, talk to me. Yeah. So if you're new, you haven't heard this, if you're not, well, you're just going to have to hear it again. But I used to say, well, and it used to be that way, that like I just couldn't listen to fiction. I could do nonfiction audiobooks. So I probably did like two or three audio books, just depending on what nonfiction like got exciting for me um and then i don't even i'm trying to think

i think it was that i just had a lot of driving going on too and i was like it would just be so nice to be able to like audiobooks yeah um and i think i think it all kind of started to when it was nonfiction i saw girl on girl which is really really good um really fascinating look at how how society kind of turned women against each other in the 2000s. And I just, I loved that one so much. So that was nonfiction, but it like popped up in my feed. And I was like, oh, this was great. And then it recommended memoirs.

And I was like, oh, maybe memoirs will be interesting. And they were. I actually finished Girl on Girl on Mother's Day. Oh, nice. And I was listening to it on Spotify because if you pay for Spotify, you get 15 hours of audiobooks every month and two. and it recommended matriarch by Tina Knowles to me next on Mother's Day and I was like, sure, let's do it. And I loved that. I still, anyone, anyone who likes memoirs who likes

autobiographies, who likes hearing stories where like about how much your life can change in 60 years, she might be in her 70s. That one was fantastic. So then I was like, oh, memoirs are amazing. And like, I'll listen to more audiobooks. And then Steph, has mentioned before how S.A. Cosby's narrator, Adam Lizarre White, I think it's Lizarre White, not White Lazzar. Just has the best voice ever. And she listens to all of S.A. Cosby's books. Right. And so right before Thriller Fest, King of Ashes came out. And I was like, I really want to read this one. Like, I didn't get approved for it on that galley. And obviously, it's a real thing. really long one and I was like well I have been listening to memoirs and like those have been

working so maybe like try it with a really good narrator um and I it's like a 16 hour book and I like got through it in like three days because it was just like dog walks chores uh work that didn't require like that wasn't a video that I was having to edit and I was like well this was fantastic and this really worked for me so that was basically the kind of progression leading up to that And now I am a woman obsessed. And like, not that it's about your reading number, but it's exciting that like I've had less time where it's like the silent, like, uninstrupted long stretches of time that you kind of need for what Steph calls eyeball reading. So that's what I'm going to call it. Because I obviously think of audiobooks as reading.

So it's been nice. I'm able to get through more stories. And like not from a like, oh, I want to like read 200 books this year. It's just been nice because I had been feeling how I like wasn't getting to read as much. And this like helps me get to do that too. So that's my biggest, the biggest summer change. It does make walks better. This is like the time of year where I'm like, why are we outside?

So it makes it better. I love that. I love that. Okay, and I have a couple of follow-up questions. I am not an audiobook, girly. It is 100% reading. That is where I throw it on this. I think that's such a crazy thing.

I know. Debate, like, okay. But I think I'm where you used to be, which is that, like, my concern with audiobooks is, I mean, I do this with podcasts, where you're listening. And then sometimes I realize, like, three minutes went by and I didn't really hear what was going on. But the most part with podcasts, I don't really care. Sometimes I'll go back. Let me get that.

But like, I worried that that would be my experience with audio books where it's like taking me four times as long because I'm like, actually, I haven't been listening for five minutes. What happened? Like, did you experience that at all? That's what I wondered about too. And at first, doing it while I was driving was weird for me too. Like, I think it scared me a little bit. Like, sometimes I'd be like, how am I like driving to Chicago?

Which is like, it is a pretty easy drive. like it's a straight drive north for a really long time but it is like three hours so sometimes you look down and you're like an hour just passed and like this story has been happening in some part of my visual brain totally but i'm also driving so like that was a little weird for me um what i will say like if i'm doing if i'm driving if i'm doing that kind of stuff i don't find my mind wandering because i i was always worried about that too because i feel the same way there are podcasts where it's like I just have it on. Yeah.

And I definitely don't like completely absorb everything that they're saying. But then once I like, once my brain or whatever got used to like, oh, no, you can drive and have this visual going. It was awesome because that was, now I'm going to like remember my road trips with books too, which is kind of cool. Yeah. I love that. I think of that too.

That happens for me with reading too where you like go on a vacation. And like anytime you think of that book, you like think of that book, you like think. of where you were when you're reading it yes yeah so when i was driving um up to chicago to see julie clark talk about the ghost writer she was with mary kubika which was like wild too i was listening to the vanishing half which is so good so so so so so good um but like i went through like seven hours of it like in one day so it was just it was really nice that way and then what i i because i was There have been, that's the words. I also was worried that like things would pass and I would have to go back and like,

is it worth it or whatever. And I will say like I think I've read probably 10 or 11 as audiobooks now, fiction wise. And it's only happened two or three times. Really? Yes. And the, I do think some of it is your brain probably. gets used to it like it's like i didn't feel like i went through a learning phase but like now i'm like i'm

sure it just took a second for my my brain to like adjust or whatever but what i really noticed too is like because i was like is the temptation of scroll going to be bigger if i'm just like listening versus reading and what i actually kind of started to realize was in in a lot of cases like if i've been like cleaning the kitchen or whatever and then i'm like i'm just sit on the couch before i go shower or something like that. And I keep listening. My phone's not in my hand. And so actually in some cases, like very rarely am I just like sitting on a couch, but sometimes I am. And so especially if it was like I was already doing something where I wasn't on my phone and I just kind of sit there for a little bit and chill. It's like my phone's not even in my hand anyway. So it actually kind of as a digital reader as

well, that's the other part, where, like, I normally read my books both the time on my phone, just because it's, like, where I'm at logistically, do I have my Kindle or my iPad near me? But since I was a digital reader, it's actually the temptation is stronger to go, like, on Instagram when your phone's in your hand than when it's not. So that's something else I learned. Interesting. Interesting. Do you, so when you're reading an audiobook, do you also read other books digitally, Or are you like, do you have two going at one time?

I have two going at one time now. So, yeah, typically I have an audiobook and a digital book that I'm reading. There's obviously the really nice, depending on how everyone feels, Whispersink with Amazon and Audible is really nice. Like, it is nice to have both of them. What does Whispersink? what okay so whisper sync is it like if you're listening on audible and then like a couple hours later you pick it up on like the kindle app it picks up exactly where you were so you can go back and forth um and i still haven't even ever paid for that but there are some kindle unlimited that will have both so like i'm reading bloodline by just lowry right now um for our book club have you read that one i haven't but it's definitely on my radar It's everyone talks about how bonkers it is. So that's why I was like, are you saying that? Because you know how crazy it is. Like I don't even know what I'm in for completely. But that's that one's on Kid Unlimited. So if anyone has that. So I have the digital copy and the audio copy so that I can bounce back and forth. So there is that. But I'm also not there's some people who read while the narrator reads it too. So it's like they're listening.

and watching the words. I'm not that. I'm not that person. And so typically it's, I have an audiobook and then I have, I'm reading a Jackal right now by Aaron E. Adams. Oh, so good too.

So that's my digital book and then my audio book right now is bloodline. Got it, got it. That's interesting. I mean, I could see the, I guess you would be, I would guess I would feel like I would be really immersed if I was reading it

and listening to it at the same time. Like, I mean, that makes me think of, like, I've tried to do stuff like that more actually when, um, with, uh, when you're trying to learn another language, like,

I've often on, I've been like trying to learn French. And so like, go to Netflix and you'll listen, you'll put the, you'll have the track on in French, but you'll also have the, that's smart,

that you can like, it's like doubly getting into your brain. So that's interesting people do that with like reading too. I didn't know that. Yeah. That's what, that just reminded me one of the girls in my book club, Laura, she's from Spain and she got into listening to like bookish podcasts in English as a way

to like further her understanding of English. And I was like, that's so smart and cool. Totally. I feel like when I've gone to Europe, I always wind up talking to somebody who's like, I learned English through like your net through Netflix, you know, like yeah, movies and stuff. And I'm always like, I think you're smarter than me because I've been trying it with French stuff and it is networking. It's like, I think it's like, I think it's, It's such a, I'm using doolingo right now because it made like the long story short was at Easter. There was someone at Tyler's family's house who only spoke Spanish for the most part. And all of a sudden, like a lot of it was coming back to me.

If I had finished college, I was going to be a Spanish minor. So it's like there was still enough hanging around in my head. And I was like, oh yeah, it's kind of fun. Like I was able to at least communicate with her a little bit. So then ever since then, I've been. trying to build it back up. But like when you really do start trying to learn, you get so much respect for how many, how many things there are to really learn a language. And just how hard, like so many people outside of America speak more than one language and like almost none of

us speak more than one. I know. I find it constantly humbling and honestly embarrassing that like when I go to other countries, I have to be like, can you come to me? You know what I mean? It's something I always try to like, like, you live in California and you like pick up Spanish by default because it's prevalent here. It's like the history here, you know, Mexico. So you pick up some of that. And then the French stuff, like I went to Paris a couple of years ago and I was there for like six days. And I was surprised by how well at the end of that trip I could speak French, like just kind of with like obviously wasn't fluent.

But like you were conversant. like everything did happen to be in the present tense like it was like I can only live in the present tense but like I can like communicate get it across it is it's shocking I don't know brains are fat such interesting things and you're totally right like there's so much to a language and yes we don't do a great job with and right across the board I know almost every other country in the world does right that's what Tyler and I'm talking about it too because he was working with someone I can't remember what the guy's first language is, but like English is not it. Um, and so then it's like interesting the way that like you can tell in a text message like, okay, it's this isn't like

their native language, but you still understand everything that they're saying. And I was like, it just gets more and more impressive to me that like that people can even just like somewhat communicate in a language that isn't their own. Totally. And I have this thought I've had this. Sorry, this is like such an odd detour but we're in it now um you know there there's like other countries or other languages have words for things that we don't have or like that we might have that experience but we don't have a word for like the one i'm thinking of that's like common as like schadenfreude in german of being happy at somebody else's downfall which i think is an experience we have but i've wondered before if like if you're multilingual and you like do you have access to a greater range of

like experiences and emotions because you have like the words for them you know like that's a thought too i know now this is going to kill me but my brain has just been failing me lately in the last week i just keep forgetting stuff but there was some podcasts i was listening to i can't think what it was but he was saying that he was talking about a specific feeling i think it was Caleb heron who is like one of the funniest comedians out there if anyone's looking for a comedy podcast but he there was some word where he was like, we don't have a word for this. And then he like explained it. He was like, I feel like this is one of those things where like some other language could like just put this into one word. And I was like, those things are so interesting too because then it's interesting

how we like add words. Yeah. Over time. Like how Google's a verb now is like the one example I can think of. But yeah, yeah. Language. It really is. It's, it's very interesting. Yeah. I know. I'm always so impressed. Like I just read Claymas-Michelon's, our last resort. It's really, really good. I enjoyed it a lot. But I remember finding out that English wasn't her first language with the silent tenant. No, the quiet tenant. I always mess it up. And being like, wait, she wrote this beautiful prose with like maybe a bigger vocabulary than I have. And this isn't even her first language. I know. It's truly incredible. And she seems like the most lovely most chic human who's ever I know to the planet like she's always got like her perfect

lipstick on I like she's suffer and I'm like wears it like a coat you know I know I know so cool looking yes she is she's really I met her in January um because she was in conversation with Liz and Greg um and my sister-in-law was there and she's like she's like the Taylor Swift of authors I was like she definitely is yes she's like pulls that look off totally the Taylor Swift of authors, although I play the other one I think is the Taylor Swift of authors is Ashley Winstead. I know and they're like buddies too. I'm like, of course they are. They are. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of writing, how's your writing going? What's going on with your writing? Well, so my interesting answer to this is obviously at the beginning of the year I was like, I'm going to finish my first draft. I'm going to finish a book this year.

And then a lot of different things have happened. Thriller Fest was like its own thing. that was like it was really cool getting to see off like all these authors like I didn't realize how many people I knew like I should have but it was it really reminded me of that basically and then I came back and we actually sold our first like author social media package congrats that's wonderful thank you it was it was really cool week because like in the course of like nine days. I went to Chicago and saw Julie Clark and Mary Kubica. And then like 36 hours later, I flew to New York and saw like all of the authors there. And then I came back. And two days later, I saw Lisa Jewel who came to Indiana. Like, I don't know why. And then the next day I sold my first

book wild package. And I was like, okay, so book wild is book wild right now? Busy, busy. Yes. So, um, so then I was just thinking. about it because obviously we all only have so much time in the day. So that was where I was like, okay, I'm already like sometimes waking up early to finish like work work. Um, sometimes. And so it's like I've gone back and forth so much on like, am I going to force myself to write at 5 a.m. every day. Like what do I need to do to do this? So basically I got to a point where from a very practical standpoint, it makes the most sense to me to try to build book wild, as a brand and put most of my energy towards that,

especially this year so that we could really make it profitable as part of it. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to sell things to people right here. But, so I think I'm going to go all in on my book Wild content. I think substack, I do want to keep writing on there. But I think I'm going to not put pressure on finishing a book this year kind of for a couple different reasons mainly if we can start replacing client work that we don't love yeah um with more and more bookish stuff that would be great um and the other thing is then if if the brand can function that way one then there should be more time for writing

and two hopefully there's a larger audience yeah to when i do have more time to finish a book to kind of pitch it to that audience as well. So that's my really long answer of like, I think two days before you texted me about doing this episode, I had finally been like, you know what, I think this actually is what makes the most sense for me right now. So I still want to write, I still have ideas for my substack. It's like one of those things where I did overestimate, uh, or I underestimated how much being gone was going to then like coming back. It was going to be like, oh, there's a lot of work to do. But I think that's where I'm at this year.

I totally get that. I totally get that. And like the truth of the matter is like sometimes you have to prioritize other things. And like life is real and we're living in a capitalist society and you have to, you know, you got to make money. So like I totally, totally get that. I, that's funny. You're like, okay, I've made my decision and I'm like, do you want to talk about writing?

I know. I told Tyler's like, this will actually be a good way for me to like talk it out. since I was like, hey, guys, I'm going to finish it this year. Totally, totally. And, you know, your book will be there. Yeah. And then I think my only advice would be, not that you're looking for advice, but as somebody who has had different sports of like creating and not, make sure you're like, if you

have any thoughts about the books, like write it all down because like I have many times made the mistake of being like, I will of course remember this. It's a genius idea. I'm not going to lose it. Don't trust that. Like just write it down, you know. I know. You feel so sure that you will, some things, you're like, there's no way I will forget this. And then you're like, yep, I've known what that was.

So especially if you're like taking some time away from the manuscript. Like, maybe a jot it down somewhere. So yes. Yeah. I do have, I have an idea. I'm going to tell you about off air, though. But I have wondered about short stories. So I'm really interested to hear where you're at because I know you have focused on that before. Yeah, definitely. So, okay. So. we've talked a little bit about this. I don't know how like Frank I've been always with, not that I've been like not Frank,

but like I really been struggling the last like year and a half, maybe two years with like figuring out what is like I feel like, so I've published two books and I'll go on podcasts or different things or meet somebody and they'll be like, what's your writing process? And I'm like, it's so generous of you to think there's a process. It's like eventually I get on contract and I have to turn in a book

where they will take them. Like that's like the process. Yes. I don't want that to be the process. I want to like have a consistent generative writing practice. And the last couple of years I have really struggled with a couple of different things with feeling like everything I write isn't up to my standards, which is like when you get used to writing multiple drafts of books, I think it's really easy to forget how bad. the early drafts are. I'm sure. Because like you're living in a world and like we we had a conversation just yesterday you and I with Melanie and Agnos. That's what I think. Yeah. And she we were kind of

talking about like she's writing a series and like by the time you get to like finishing a book, you've figured out how to make the book work. And then you have to like if you're writing standalones, you basically have to like put that aside and start something new. And it's It's so hard because you have this memory of like, I've spent so long working on this. I know how to make it work. And so I have really been struggling with like putting that aside and like overcoming like this feeling of existential dread every time I write something that I don't feel. Yeah.

Good enough. And it's I also think, you know, tiny violin. I'm not trying to like complain about this because it's also the coolest thing that's ever happened to me in my life. But when you get in the publishing machine of like capital P publishing, it's really hard not to have that sort of like market side in your brain and like my last person sell as well as I wanted and like so the next one's got to be really good and like all of that is pretty bad for creativity. Yes.

I have spent a lot of time the last couple of years kind of like sobbing about this to various people from you to Lane Fargo and Wendy Hurd to my therapist, my poor therapist, Stacy has heard a lot of this. Yes. And I finally feel. like I have figured out a few things that help me move past some of what I'm feeling. And part of it is related to this TikTok that I saw. Oh, yes.

I cannot even believe I'm somebody who's like referencing a TikTok. But it's the combination of- This is the place to do it. Yeah, and a book called, We Need Your Art by Amy McNe, which I'll talk about afterwards. But like, let's roll the TikTok, Kate. Okay, okay. Let's do it.

I wrote a novel while working full time. It's coming out in the spring. A couple of people have been asking me sort of like how the FD you get started. I have some thoughts on this. I actually think this process basically applies to any art form. But basically I'm a big proponent of staying working full time if you can while creating art. And let me walk you through my sort of like bizarre process for how I did this. Okay, step one, you need to make this a bit between you and yourself.

Like you cannot take this seriously. the first phase of me writing my book was writing literally the worst book that I possibly could. And I don't mean like I tried to write a bad book so I could look back and realize I actually had an opportunity to be creative. I mean like I literally titled this book Songs People Sing because I think that is the dumbest name ever. And my friend joke that the sequel was going to be called Thongs People Fling. And I just was like, I'm going to just write something so bad. Okay, so this is literally just about rigor. You're just practicing rigor.

Like this is a training wheel situation. what you're going to do is you're just going to track how many words you write per day. This is like super simple. I'm literally just like putting it in a spreadsheet and making myself right every single day. Obviously you can see some days I track zero. I still wrote that down. Okay, so you're actually going to finish this book and I'm pretty sure this works for any creative method or like mode, whatever if you're a painter, fine artist, whatever. I think you just need to get in the habit of creating every single day. And like I genuinely am swearing to you need to make this bad. You've, to make it your goal to make it bad. The goal of this is not learning how to write or paint or whatever. The goal of this is just like getting yourself into a habit where you don't hate yourself every time you create something. You're like going into it like, I will like myself if I make this really cringy and bad.

Step two is you're going to make this a bit in your entire life. So the way I do that is I keep a list of book titles that I think are absolutely heinous. Whenever I come up with something terrible, I just add to it. My favorites are probably, I'll put the screenshot up. Lies, no one told me. tweets of famous children tomorrow's today looking forward to yesterday oh i love this one the scrum master's daughter um resilient corridors i have like a lot of these just like this is not serious it's rigorous creativity has to be rigorous but it's not serious okay now you are ready to actually

start doing something that you care about so now you have to do the same practice of keeping a spreadsheet where you're tracking what you're doing every single day. And you're actually writing about something you care about or like. So for me, this is my debut novel, Girls Our Age, which is about your best friends from college. I did not focus on plot. I didn't focus on a goal. I literally just sat down to write every single day. Okay, I can also talk about how I landed an agent and how I sold the book, but that's not really the point of this video. The point of this video is that like, no matter what you're trying to achieve with your art, the purpose, you just like really need to figure out how to be consistent and show up for yourself. And I think like the biggest issue

that makes people not be creative is they hate themselves when they make things because they're judging themselves or they either have not enough structure around it because they think creativity will just like come upon them and strike them and then that's literally doesn't happen to anybody. Or life gets in the way. So this is my full proof method for sort of like creating rigor for yourself. It's basically like one, create consistency to make it a bit with yourself, that is the only way to do art, in my opinion. That's amazing. Right? Yes. So I really liked her focus on rigor, but not serious, because I think I have been approaching it the opposite way for the last two years where it's felt very serious to me to write, but then

so serious it makes it hard to like do it consistently. And then I like, hate not doing it consistently. And then I do it. And I don't like what comes out. And then that makes me hate myself to. a lot of self-loathing. Yes. So I kind of took that to heart. And I know personally, I have a couple of different friends who are struggling with similar versions of what I've been struggling with. Yeah.

And so I'm also been reading a book called The World Needs Your Art by Amy McNey. It's basically one of those books that's kind of like a creative roadmap for like how to get back in touch with your inner artist. I don't know that I'm 100% sold on this book. There is a podcast called If Books Could Kill. Have you ever heard of this podcast? No. It's with Uncle Hobbs and Peter, I don't remember his last name.

And they basically look at kind of like pop culture books and like deconstruct like what might be wrong with them. And so I have their voices in my head as I'm reading it. Yeah. I was just saying that could actually give you a complex as fun as it sounds. Totally. But it's more like it's like Malcolm Gluck. Gladwell. It's not fiction. Oh, okay. Yeah. So they're like looking at this and being like, here's why he's wrong or like what he's leaving out. And so I feel that feeling a little bit

reading this Amy McNee book because like every other page is just like a page long piece of like size 24 type that's like, you're badass. And I'm sort of like, what did I pay for? Like it says it's 200 pages, but it really 45 anyway. But the thing that she has long tangent, long walk to say If it's something she is offering, actually I did find very useful, which she has this thing called the creative reset, where she suggests that if anybody is struggling with getting in touch with their creativity and kind of the churn that I've been in and the churn that this TikTok creator talks about, like, you need to spend two weeks proving to yourself that you can show up for your art. and the way to do that is by making the bar so low that you're like embarrassed to not cross the threshold. That's a good point too. So for me, and so I'm taking a couple of different pieces and I'm mashing them together.

So I decided that for two weeks and it's been actually like a bit longer that I've been doing it, I was going to have to write 200 words every day. and trying not to write like for for the first two weeks i was trying not to write more than 450 because that's part of she says like you you're you're gonna if you if you sit down to say i'm gonna write a thousand words today or five pages today it's too intimidating you're not going to do it and part of the like magic of this is like the consistency and so you don't want to be like okay i said i'd write 200 words and i wrote 3,000 and then the next day you're like i have nothing to write like you're trying to like i'm showing up

up again and again and again and again. So for a while I was saying no more than like 450 words, at least 200. Now I'm just saying at least 200 and like trying to be there. And so I'm also keeping a spreadsheet of that as per that TikTok. And keeping with making it rigorous but not serious, I have titled the spreadsheet, rebel in the opportunity to be a creative, see you next Tuesday because I find it very funny to drop the sea hammer and I like talking about this hammer by calling it the sea hammer. So it makes me laugh every time I open this spreadsheet. And I love what I did today. So every day trying to write at least 200 words. Like truly this to me feels like there's a part of me that's like even embarrassed to think of the idea of 200 words because

it's like that's nothing. You know, like I mean it's not nothing. But like I'm, I'm somebody who tends to like overdraft and have to pair back. So like that's like five minutes for me. You know what I mean? But like I really think there's magic and keeping the goal that small because like I have been in a really busy season too. And I cannot tell you the number of times in the last couple of weeks that it's gotten to be like 1130 at night. And I'm like I didn't do the words. And I'm like, bitch, it's 200 words. Like you'll be so you'll be embarrassed if you did. So like it keeps forcing me to like engage. And it's also been really nice. And then actually, like, some days I've gone way above that. And so I was looking at it. And I think I've written almost 7,000 words in the last three weeks, which is crazy. And they're not good words. I'm really prioritizing quality over quality and consistency over like gorgeousness. So they've been on different short stories that I'm working on. I've like played little games with myself about like, okay, I have to include this and this.

short story so like that's fun game um and i've been tracking how much i've been writing every day so that like that does make me feel better because i think if i was just telling myself oh i'm writing 200 words every day and i wasn't keeping track of what i was actually writing i think i would sort of like am i even doing anything because the stories sometimes feel like i'm spinning my wheels but instead i can look at it and be like oh i actually wrote quite a bit in the last three weeks that's a really good point. Yeah. And then I'm doing a couple of other things, too, that have been helping my creativity, one of which Megan Collins and I are currently playing a game with each other, where we are joint writing a short story. Yes, I saw her story about it or yours, one of those two.

Yeah, and I think it was hers, and then I reposted it. So in the morning, she writes one sentence, And then in the evening, I add. And so it's almost like an exquisite corpse situation, except we can actually see what the other person has written. But like, so you're like just back and forth developing the story. And it's one sentence every day. We take that. And like, honestly, it's turning into something really strange and amazing and really fun.

And we're like not worried about like selling it or showing it to anybody. But like, it's been a really fun thing. And it's fun to like see what she's created. And we keep setting up situations for each other to be like, how are you going to answer this type thing, you know? And this has wound up pretty quickly with like a decapitated head in the fridge. In a fridge, right? It's been really fun.

And then the other thing I'm trying to do is we might have talked about this in the past, but I am a big proponent of morning pages. Yes. Which are three pages written by hand every morning. And I'll be honest with you, I do not do it every morning. I think that's a great way to live. And like I cannot do that every morning, partially because I also have like a day job and like sometimes I can't spare the time. But it's been, I do notice that on the days that I do it, I sort of prime myself to see the world more as a writer because I've sort of like fomented that.

So like I'll start noticing details when I'm out in the world where I'm like, that would be good to include in a story. And I jot it down. It's like it's almost like I like get the engines turning in a certain way. and like then it starts to just kind of go. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was, so in that TikTok she talks about she believes it's really important to keep your day job because you want to keep your writing fun. And I agree with that.

Like, you know, it would be great to be a full-time writer. And I also worried that I would fully spiral out into neuroses and like not enjoy writing. This was part of what I had been exploring the last couple of weeks. So I loved that part. Yeah. Yeah. But that said, I do sometimes struggle. Like the internalized capitalism is strong.

I live and die on my to-do list and my like feeling of getting things done. And sometimes that leads me to prioritizing my day job overwriting in a way that I'm not always comfortable with or proud of. And I like I am a realist. Like I have to do this work because I want to make money and like I want to do a good job because I'm a human with integrity. but I don't want writing to always be the thing that falls off my plate. And so I have found that like it actually feels to me like on those days when I do the morning pages, it's sort of like pushing back against that internalized capitalism. No, we're not going to start our day by checking our email.

We're going to actually sit here and write. And like it's like an active practice of being like actually writing literally comes first. You know, like it is the thing that like it's a way to like feel like I'm. I'm living my values more than my tombstone to be like alignment. Yeah, like was a good little corporate worker. And yet sometimes that's how I treat my day where I'm like, I got to start doing this first. And it's like, no, like take the 20 or 40 minutes to write your morning pages.

Yeah. And then start your day. Yes. So. So. So many things in my, yeah, I know. I just threw a bunch at you. But that's what I know.

I'm trying to make sure. So yeah. So a lot of this just relates a lot. to what I've been thinking about as well. I didn't want to forget. I finished all the sinners bleed by S.A. Cosby this morning. Again, wonderful, wonderful narration. But there was, he had a line that says capitalism is great if the people who look

like you are in the capital, which I understand we look like the people in the capital. But he really snuck in a nice little line there about capitalism because someone's like, I like it. He's like, I'm sure you do like it. But it is. there's that part and so that was even like I feel really grateful that I've like talked with so many authors over the last few years. And also that I'm a big reader and have talked to other readers because I feel like that gave me a really realistic understanding of like how many books get

published every year. Yeah. In the sense that there are actually a lot. There's so many books that come out. So even from like a reader's perspective, especially than a reader who got on net galley and has been very active there for a while, I was like, it's hard for me to pick which book I want to read next sometimes because there are so many options, because there are so many books that like, I'm like, I'm sure I would love that. That's actually kind of been what has been relieving about audiobooks, not relieving, but kind of is like I am getting to read more of the books that I do already know, like, oh, these really would probably fit for me. Um, But I feel like that made me like very realistic about the chances of ever replacing your income with just writing.

Yeah. Because I'm like, you could still write something fantastic. And luck doesn't line up, whatever doesn't line up. Like, you just don't know. And so I think that's been sitting in the back of my mind, especially more this year because so much of our focus is on making our business profitable and like really getting to a place where we can live on. on less because there's not as much debt, all of that stuff. But I think since that has been the focus, it's been like, well, I know that writing a book right now is not going to change really any of that probably. And I feel like I can see it in a removed way because I've talked to now, like,

authors and readers. So I'm like, okay, like there's a very low chance that I'm going to make money something to be published for like two years. Like if I finish it, like all of that. So that's, that's what had been in the back of my mind too and i i was kind of like getting into the thought experiment with myself where i'm like obviously i don't think any writer would actually say like no i don't want writing to be my full-time job at all i know i don't want to make so much money that i don't have to do anything i'm not saying that obviously anyone who writes something like hopes it becomes a tv show or a movie or like has a hundred thousand which was so cool i saw lane fargo has 100,000. Oh, I was so happy in the U.S. Yes. Yes. So she's not the outlier, but that's why that number

was in my head is like, of course everyone wants that, but do I want that pressure on art? So like, that's what really resonated with me even in just listening. I mean, there are a lot of things in that TikTok. But when she talked about just not losing your full-time job for me, It's kind of like I can't similar to you. It's like I also can separate work and just be like this is something I need to do because I want to make money. I like checking things off my list, blah, blah, blah. But that lets it just be work.

And then it's like it would then just let writing be writing because I want to write. So that's what was kind of dawning on me is like in general. I'm like, I don't want to write thinking about the marketability or thinking about which income it can replace and stuff so I don't necessarily want to come from that all the time. I totally get that and like from a very pragmatic level you know I work for a publisher outside of my life as a novelist and I have some experience as a novelist so I'm really not trying to slam publishers when I say no publishers are actively making it harder for writers to um make a living at this they have recently started splitting um it used to be

be that your payment was split, like you would get at your advance, right? Which was advance against royalties. And that's oftentimes, unless you've earned out, that's oftentimes the money that you're getting about that book. And so that ranges anywhere from, you know, a couple thousand dollars to lots of thousands of dollars or, you know, if you're TjR, 40 million dollars, which is what we just heard about, that she got a really. Yeah, it was a five book deal. And I think Time magazine was the one that reported that for a five book deal, she got paid $40 million, so $8 million a book. But like, all of us could become TJR, but most of us are not going to become TJR. You know what it's like. It's like that's the lottery, essentially. So and also like she's never

the way that advances are structured with royalties, even TJR, like she's not earning that $40 million out for her publishers. They just decided that she was worth it to have her there. So, anyway. And publishing is like that too, or sometimes they get these big ones to help subsidize the smaller ones too. Totally. And like honestly, you know,

what they're making off of, like you're, you're making money for them even if you don't earn out. They're still making money. Like, because you're, the way that royalties are structured, you're making such a small percentage back against your advance that like,

they still might have made money on your book, even if you didn't earn. out. Um, yeah. So anywhere, was I going with that? So the way that it was traditionally structured with payments for books was that you would get this advance and it would be split into three. You would get a third of it on signing your contract, a third of it on delivering the final manuscript that you and your editor have agreed upon like this is it. We've made all the changes. This is it. And then you, you'd get a third of it upon publication date. So if you get paid a $30,000 advance, it means you're getting $10,000 minus your agent cut in three different chunks.

And those three chunks could be like for your first book, you've probably, it goes faster, but that could be like $10,000 a year. Now they've split it into four. So you're getting a fourth on signing the contract, a fourth on delivering the manuscript, a fourth on publication, and a fourth a year after publication. So that $30,000 then becomes, what, $7,500 that you're making over the course of four years? So, like, they're making it actively harder for writers, for most writers to make a living at it. So I think it's, plus also, if you really think about, I'm sorry, this is such a Debbie Downer, and I'm really not trying to be. No, I think we're, I think it's realistic and it's good to be realistic. Yeah.

And then, like, if you really look at the hours that you spend writing a book and rewriting a book. You're making pennies on that. You know what I mean? Like you really are. And like I had a friend who works in commercials, which is like even amongst film production highly lucrative. And she was basically like, oh, so if you think about how many hours you've spent writing this book, like what would be your hourly rate? And like, you know, you'd probably have to make like $300,000 for it to be like viable. Like that girl.

Like no. You know, like that's not why like everybody wants to make money on their books. but like yes i don't think you can i don't think it's an industry you can go into being like i'm gonna make a lot of cash like it's just it's if you do that's great and i like we all want to but like yes realistically it's not the thing that's going to you know make an insane amount of money right i do think that it's got to be a part of my self-publishing is so attractive to so many people at this point what because like i had even said that where it's like if i'd didn't, I wouldn't want to query for two years when I'm confident in my ability to use the

technology to just publish it and get it out there. So, yeah, that's crazy. You sign with an agent, you go on submission, even if you sell it relatively quickly. Yeah. At least, like, let's say you sell it within six months, which is pretty good. People sell it faster than that for sure. and sometimes it takes longer, but like, let's say it takes six months and then you sell it, and then it's going to be another year. I mean, that's like three and a half, four years before that book that you wrote is going to be the world. And I think that's also part of the reason people drift to self-publishing is like,

yeah, click of a button that's out there. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely see the attraction to it. The other part that that TikTok was really good about, and I think you were diving into it, too, is it's really like a shame buster. is like so the idea of like write right bad words like it also probably even for the achievers in us you're like oh well that's the goal i can do that yes exactly totally it takes the takes the shame out which i thought was really cool you're totally right it's like it gives you

something to achieve without like being like this needs to be good and i also like i've started like her i started keeping a list of bad titles just like a fun thing my list is not as long as hers but like I wrote down one that every time I see it makes me laugh and I think that's like a good lightness to bring but um I have a bad title on the list called blood lambs and I that is what is that book right now I'm gonna I'm interested to see if any titles come to mind because it's like I've never even had a oh I did have one idea for my book and it it does the one i have written some of uh but like i don't even get title ideas that frequently so now i'm interested though like now that i've thought about it am i going to start seeing it places

i totally totally i'm with you i'm not great at titles i had i went through like grad school with the lady upstairs and every time i turned in my workshop submissions i would have a different title and a lot of the times it would be like titles are bullshit titles are losers titles are overrated. Like I just could not figure out what the title was. I think at one point I was calling it two for the big teaky bar in the sky. Which I knew wasn't a good title. Don't worry.

That's a good title. But titles are hard, but that's why it can be like, what I really appreciate about her take too is like bringing a sense of levity back to this thing. That's not having it be. I think that's a really important note that like creativity is rigorous you need to like continually show up for it consistently for it to like be a part of your life yes but it doesn't have to be serious and maybe shouldn't be serious you know yeah finding ways to like

puncture that i think has been really effective for me yes that it was also making me think of have you seen that jordan peel clip that is going around right now where he's saying like if you're not having fun like why are you writing that story like switch to a story like this is supposed to be the thing you're having fun with. He was talking about how like he wrote get out either while he was still in school or working somewhere else. But for him, it was such a fun idea that like he was having fun with it. And he's like, there are other ideas that weren't. I think he says that. But that clip's been going around and I'm like it is like some people might be like, I'm not going to become Jordan Peel by only doing what's fun. Well, you might you might not. But I really like

his perspective on that but the other thing oh there was something else that made anything of oh is uh in terms of capitalism i was kind of talking about this with tyler too like uh i remember ashley winstead for some reason was the first one who mentioned to me that like in the thriller world that's where it's even more common to be like put one out every year if you can essentially or that like it's just drilled into that genre want you on yeah yeah yeah and oh I know and like yeah I was even even made me think of um oh who was that it was Ashley Audrain uh she was the same she was talking about she's like I can't write a book every year so I don't like I can't like I have to fit with these things um so in the sense of the capitalism of

at all that's like, oh, you should. I'm using air quotes for anyone who's not watching. Be putting one out every year. It like, it gets in your head that you're like, at least for me, I'm not even published. I'm like, oh, okay, but mostly I'm going to need to have a new idea every year. I wouldn't want to do it that way. I don't think. There's nothing wrong with it if you do. No, I, I'm very impressed. I have a couple of friends who are really good at like, I have this idea and I sit down and I draft it and I figured out like I might have talked about this or maybe I didn't, but I went to go see Jesse Q Sutanto a couple weeks ago. You wrote a book for a Disney line of books that I did not realize, which is Disney is doing like an adult romantic thing. So it's like a retelling of Mulan from like a POV and like a contemporary and very cool.

Wow. She has Kate. So I didn't talk to you about this? No, you have it. she has the most insane drafting process I've ever heard of in my life. But she like spends two months figuring out an outline that she adheres to perfectly like the outline is this is the book that I will write. Which I'm like glad for you. Not how it works for me. You know, I sold the lady or I'm sorry, I sold the Hurricane Blonde on proposal and sent an outline and was like maybe, you know, like small park like is. We'll see. And it was like so different from that. But she writes an outline.

This is the book. We're sticking with this. Then she drafts her book in five weeks. And wait a second. We haven't even gotten to the crazy part yet. Hold your horses. So her book. There's 35 days, everybody.

I know. That's also crazy to me. And I'm like, I mean, my friend Wendy Hurd writes a book almost that fast too. And I'm just. Oh, yeah. Because they both have two come out sometimes, right? Because like Wendy Hurd has Y.A. Sometimes.

Yeah. adult. Yeah, which I'm so impressed by and like honestly wish I could be on that cadence, but that is like so not how my brain works. Yeah. So, okay, so five weeks. So if her books are 80,000 words, in the first four weeks, she writes 40,000 words of those 80,000. And in the last week, she checks herself into a hotel for like four days. Oh, yes. To write the rest of it. And she does this like every time. Every time she writes a book. She checks herself into this nice luxury hotel. I have seen those stories before. Now it makes sense. And I'm like, okay, I'm really not saying this because I don't think this is true.

But like, in my mind, the only way that works is I'm like, you are on speed. Like there must be some sort of accelerant. Right. I know. I don't imagine that you're just like, da, da, da, like, not just like blowing rails and being like, 40,000 words. Right. Like, that's crazy. And she has kids. She has kids.

That's why she checks herself into the hotel. That part makes sense. I think I think what really is happening is she explained it in this book of events so like truly I don't think Jesse Satanto is using any sort of right I'm not meaning to slur her it's just like I cannot imagine doing that that way I cannot imagine doing that but I think what happens is she by 40,000 words she's gotten to the midpoint so she's on and if you if she's somebody who can really write an outline and stick to it she knows like what's going on and by the time you get

to the midpoint that's kind of like the roller coaster has hit the airtime then you're sliding down so I can't have imagine, I can't imagine writing more momentum words in the course of a couple of days, but I can imagine that you're at a place where, like you said, you've gotten momentum and you're sort of like, if you know where we're going, like, you're just like full speed ahead. But like still, that's crazy town to me. That's wild. That's a lot of words to write.

Yeah. And does she, I wonder how many rounds of edits she does then. Yeah, I'm curious about that too. She didn't mention. but like yeah that's the thing too right like writing a draft like a shitty first draft is a very different experience than like oh i'm layering in all this texture and i'm really worrying about my pro like different things so i don't really know she didn't talk about that and i didn't ask about it about like well is that like what is that first draft like relative to what you finally

send to an editor you know yeah yeah that's crazy that is and And again, like, one of the biggest takeaways I've had from talking with so many authors, and I've said it before is there's, there's not one way to write a book. There's like not even 10 ways. There's like thousands of different ways. And it's like, that's what's so hard sometimes about like listening to other people's and you're like, okay, maybe that's what I need to do. But you do still have to like try it and see if it even works for you because it just might

not work for you at all just because it works for someone else 100% I think that's so true and it's unfortunate right and that's why I always find it funny I do read a fair amount of craft books and some I lean on more than others but almost all of them are like I'm going to tell you the way to write a book nobody has to know and I'm like if there was one way we would know it yes person would be a big billionaire you know what I mean everyone could write bestsellers right it would just that would be it But like, unfortunately, as is true of like, I think every realm of life, like, you have to figure out the thing that works for exactly who you are. And so what I was hoping to bring here today are the things that have been working for me in the hopes that like maybe you or somebody listening or somebody is like, oh, if I'm, I can try. These could be more tools on my writing toolkit because that's what I'm trying to develop for myself too, right?

It's like I have other experience of writing different ways. but like what are more tools so that when I get stuck or I am struggling to get in touch with my creativity or I really hate everything that I write and it makes me hate myself? Like what are things that I can go back to that might like move me to a difference loss, you know? Yeah. The other thing it was about the hating yourself part. I think that TikTok was making me think about this too.

But I so like for work we we edit all kinds of stuff. but like sometimes it is like taking a like 40 minute interview and making it like five minutes, four minutes, whatever. And so I've been editing stuff like that forever. Basically what I'm zeroing in on is like ones where you have to make more choices and then like figure out a way for it to all come together and still make sense, essentially. And so when I do that, there's like, there's the listening and taking notes part where I'm like noting like the things that are there, possibilities of like how I could put them together. And then there's like once I've listened to it all being like, okay, now which markers do I want to go to?

And like, and so then it's like maybe it goes to like maybe it's like 10 minutes then down from 40. And sometimes you're like, oh, no, no, no, those two. those two don't go together like no and so then you're playing around with the 10 minutes for a while um but it was making me a while ago i kind of had a realization or whatever when i'm editing something like that and like it doesn't work the way i thought it was going to i don't have a crisis of confidence and fall apart like i can approach editing that and i don't make it a part of my personality i don't take it personally. And I was like, okay. So like I do want to learn with writing to get to that point. Like, I don't need to make it personal. Just and being able to tell that something doesn't flow or it's not

what you want it to be. Yeah. It's still just a sign that you know what you're doing. It's not a sign that you're bad at it. Totally. Totally. That I totally agree with you. I feel the same way too, right? Like, I want to do a good job at my day job. But like truly, I am not sitting there agonizing over my word choice. Right. I'm just like better done than not, you know? And then yes. And it makes me think of Anne Patchett. There's this, I'll see if I can find this, this link to this article. I mean, it wasn't, she didn't write the article, but the article was kind of analyzing what she said in her great.

I think it's called Truth and Beauty, which is an incredible read. And she basically talks about like how the work of the artist is oftentimes forgiving yourself for not writing the thing or creating the thing that's as beautiful as it is in your mind. Yeah. The only way she uses the like analogy, she's like, when I think of a story idea and I'm flushing it out, it's this beautiful butterfly that lives in my mind. And it's like the most perfect thing that anyone has ever created. And in order to get it on the page to show other people, I have to run that butterfly over with a range rover so that it's just mushed on the pavement.

Something to show people. It's like, you know? And she's like, oh. Totally. And she's like, and I have to constantly work on forgiving myself that like, I could not translate it better than I did. And like, she's somebody who's like writing, I find like unbelievably beautiful. And yet she still feels that way. And so I think about that too. And I think that that kind of speaks to what you're talking about is like we don't have to forgive ourselves for that in other places where it's like

our ego or our sense of identity aren't tied into it or like our hopes and dreams and aspirations in the same way. And like your inner child is so. Absolutely. Totally. And so it's like, I do think part of the work is that is sort of being able to be like, I have to be able to set aside some of my like deep love and reverence long enough to create. You know, like, you know, even if not exactly what I want it to be, know that you can work with it or just be like that is part of the process. It is not as perfect as it is in my mind. Yes. That is the hard part. And I bet. a lot of writers like it comes up i i obviously don't like lean all the way into any personality test but i still think it can help you understand yourself and it shows up in mind everywhere that like i also have really abstract thoughts that kind of all makes sense like in my mind but sometimes it's so it sometimes it's so abstract and i'm not trying to like sound smart or something that like sometimes uh especially if i've had an edible there will be things

things that do just connect in my mind and I'm like, oh, but then like trying to explain to Tyler the epiphany I just had like as it's so hard. So I bet I would assume a lot of writers, especially from what you were just talking about with Ian Patchett then, like what that reminded me of the feeling of having a really abstract concept that like really like matters and means something to me, but I don't know how to convey it so that it means as much to everyone else. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And then being able to be like, is it enough that I'm conveying it at all? You know, like that is like some version of it living in the world, even if it's a perfect version.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that just I just remembered at some point, kind of to the point of the capitalism, I think some of what had me thinking about how thriller authors, it's like, put one out every year. Obviously, if you can and you want to, it's great. We're not saying anything. bad or wrong, except the way we talk to ourselves. That part is bad. Yeah. Oh, so I listened to

Sky Full of Elephants, which came out like a year and a half ago. So good, though. So fantastic if you love speculative fiction. Like, if you love sitting with like kind of social psychology slash horror, not horror, but it's dystopian. It was really good, basically, is what I'm saying. And so when I started the podcast, like, between the lines. So, like, the first one that I started, like, four years ago, when I reached out to a bunch of authors, again, like, I didn't even know how many would say yes. I didn't know how viable it was at all. So I reached out to, like, six.

Yeah. And I think four of them, four or five of them ended up coming on. And one of them was, like, yeah, like, that book, I'm not really doing interviews about it. anymore because it like came out a year and a half ago but like basically like DM me when my next one of my next one is going to come out and I was like okay cool and I actually did go on to have that person I don't know why I'm speaking this way like it's not like I'm spilling real tea I'm really loving it because it's like heightening the drama where who is it so I'll tell you so off air I don't know why I'm trying to keep it so secret but um sometimes some people

are like fuck that they should have they should have responded to you and I'm like it's okay not everyone can do everything um they did come on basically the next year for their other book but like because that happened at the beginning I got it so solidified in my head that like authors only want to talk about a recent book for a certain amount of time and that's clearly true for some of them sure um but it had got it's it's gotten to a point like if I'm reading or listening to backlist I'm like not assuming the person would even want to be on a podcast. Just like because my brain was like, oh, this is a fact that I didn't know. And it was because I think it's also just like when you do start getting into it, like it was my first foray into talking to authors.

So I was just like, oh, this must be what it is. But then I finished that book and it was so fantastic that I like even just posted in my story about it. And I was like, this is how you use speculative fiction. I tagged him. and he like shared it and thanked me and um you guys at this point i've probably heard this story i don't know how many times because i think the episode will have come out but um my friend mackenzie when i was like posting this is another audiobook thing this is like one of those other cool things like all this wouldn't have even come together if i didn't get into audiobooks um Libro FM was

having a sale and so i posted about a bunch of them and i was like i'm interested in these does anyone like know if they're good. And she said she loved sky full of elephants. And she also, we geek out on like, she was on the sinners episode as well. And I was like, okay, well, I'm going to get this one. And so I listened to it and loved it. So I like sent her screenshot. And I'm like, he just shared it in his story and he's DMing me right now. And she was like, oh my gosh. And I was like, if he wants to do an episode, would you want to be on it? And she was like, yes, absolutely. like I would it was funny I told Tyler I was like McKinsey's gonna die and her answer was I would die and I was like see I told you that's so funny um and he basically offered to come on before I'd even

asked he was like if you want to have if you ever want to chat about it like I loved talking about this book and so he said it in that interview where he was like he was like a lot authors like write a book and they're like I want to move on to the next one I'm done talking about it And he's like, but I like wrote this book because I wanted to talk about stuff like this. Totally. And I just kind of resonated with that. I know I haven't finished a book, but I'm like, I'm also just a yapper, as we all know at this point.

So it's like I would probably always be interested in talking about certain themes for a while after I'd written it. So I think a lot of that has been percolating too where it's like, oh, there are also probably more people I could talk to because I've just had this silly belief that like no author wants to talk after they've released a book. Yeah. It's kind of that capitalist year after year thing. Right.

And I have so many thoughts about that, Kate. Like I've been kind of taking a hiatus from my newsletter just because I've been feeling overwhelmed about stuff. But you know, my newsletter, I have like a section where I do like backless beauties where because I'm actually, this is not a criticism of book talk or bookstagram so much as the like current ecosystem of publishing and publication attention. is so disheartening to me that basically a book's life cycle is the week it comes out. Yeah.

Maybe the whole month. Maybe the whole month or like, you know, and there are books that break out and like, for example, Lane's the favorites is like a example of that where that book is still generating conversation. But for most books, it's sort of like you have the week your book comes out and then it's sort of like, okay, we're on to the next book next week. And I get that because there's, it's everybody's weeks some week and those are things that people are posting about and excited to see.

But like, that book probably took that person at least a year, if not more, to write. Yes. And like, you know, it just feels sort of disheartening that it feels like sometimes books feel like a drop in the conversation. So I a drop in the bucket of this big conversation. And I understand that like from a practical standpoint, but it also bums me out as a reader. And some part of me thinks that maybe comes from Harry Potter where I feel like that's the first book. Like I don't remember as a kid reading books because they came out immediately. Do you know what I mean?

As a kid, like, what's in the library? What am I interested in? What do I like? Like, oh, I liked this book. So I'll go back and read all the authors, other books that they've ever written, blah, blah, blah. But, like, Harry Potter was the first book that I can remember. And I'm sure there have been others. But, like, those were the midnight release parties.

Those were, like, acting in it now. And I feel like that had such a big impact on publishing in terms of what they were making. That we're kind of, that's now the, like, cycle that we have adopted for books is this, like, the big release is the thing. And yet books are meant to live along the life. And so I know there's authors who think differently about this and like who maybe get exhausted about talking about a book a year or so after it comes out and promote their new thing.

But to me, I'm like, books are part of an ongoing conversation that we're having for hundreds of years. And I personally always want them to be something that like has a life beyond. the week in which it comes out. So I am all about the backlist. I know. I know. And it, it was kind of, so I typically am doing like publication day episodes is what happens on most Tuesdays. And it's great. And I will continue to do that. But I had kind of become more aware of how much it was like, okay, I got put in the net galley system. Oh, now I have like publicists that I'm like kind of not friends friends with but like acquaintances i guess even though we haven't met um and so then they are just

always pitching you like i'm getting pitches for january and you're like wait whoa that's six that's half a year away yeah uh and it feels further because it's 2026 but it's like i'm always getting pitched that far in advance but all of a sudden i was like 2026 yeah right and it's like on a pragmatic level. I really get it. And like I, you know, I'm an author who has published books. I'm so thankful when people rally the week that it comes out. But like, that is to say that I also don't want us to, I'm personally an author who doesn't want us to forget that books live longer. Yeah. That they come out. Like I'm, I want to talk about books that I read that came out in the 80s and like different. Like it's all part of this like ongoing thing. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And I've been, I'm like, do I want to? Well, you know, it's new that it just happened actually. with someone where it wasn't a super new release but he still wanted to come on so that was also like my first experience with it and then I was like oh and then the nice thing about audiobooks is like that's also allowing me to do more backless since like I do have these net galleys um so that part has been nice too like one it's been easier to try out some other genres too um which is really

nice but then also what i've noticed like i just am getting more backlists totally because i'm like oh i've been interested in this one forever and now i have like i went from listening to like eight different podcasts a week to like i can't remember the last time i listened to a podcast so this is me saying if you listen to like five six however many podcasts like you actually have a lot of time to listen to audiobooks if they work for your brain sometimes i still am like why didn't it work for my brain sooner because it's like it's so it's so different and I'm like now I can't imagine not having it and I'm like I don't know why it changed now but it did and anyway just circling completely back it is it is fun just like reading backless not like what I need to get my review in for totally totally and like

yeah to see books that are like in the tradition of or like speaking to you know like you can like go back and like look at lineage of stuff and you know they don't always hold up sometimes you read a book and you're like, oh boy, but like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely some of that. But that even helps you understand that time period sometimes too. Totally. Totally. Or I think it's also valuable. Like if I'm not enjoying a book, it's valuable for me to ask myself why, you know, and be like, what about this isn't working? Mm-hmm. you know just clarify is more in my mind about like what what does work for books. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree. That's what I've been in the email too. Have you read any books

recently that you've loved? So I want to be honest with you, I have not been reading as much lately. Yeah. Because I've been, I've been, I took on a lot of freelance clients myself this summer in June and July and I'm August off from freelance work for the most part. And so it has really slowed my reading down except that a couple months ago I read all our hidden gifts by caroline o'donoghue who is an Irish writer she wrote the rachel incident is probably her just known book stateside all our hidden gifts is a young adult fantasy novel about a young girl in ireland who discovers like a deck of tarot cards and it kind of like unlocks them powers for her and like i just really found the writing extremely charming and so now i think that for most recent book that came out a couple

weeks ago called skip shock that is about time travel and so i'm excited to dig into that i love time travel i know so my most of the time shock yeah i think i might need to well i finished all the sinners bleed this morning on audio oh it's so dark it is very dark i mean everything cosby yeah yeah i think blacktop wasteland might be the least dark actually it was the first one I read and all the other ones I'm like oh okay this shit is wild yeah um but I really liked all the sinners bleed he he's so good with motifs and like having these like through lines of imagery and king of ashes was all fire was so much the motif um but then in all the sinners bleed which of you have

think with sinners in the title i probably would have like expected it but i was really impressed as someone with critiques of um evangelical christianity yeah especially in the south um the way that he used religious imagery added to just how dark and savage that book was um but i loved it and uh the narrator he's just fantastic he makes it he makes it a wonderful ride. So that was what I just finished. What was, what did I read recently? Well, right now I'm reading Jackal and really enjoying it. But also too old for this by Samantha Downing, very, very campy, fun summer read. I still love my lovely, my lovely wife will be my favorite. I don't know if it'll ever get topped. But I think a lot of people are going to

I'm going to love too old for this. Excellent. There's that. I mean, there's so many good books out there. I know. Just everywhere.