Bookwild - Yapping About How Much We Love Books with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

This week, MacKenzie Green joins the show, and we talk about our shared love for reading, how reading expands empathy, and five books that define her reading style!Books We Talked AboutCreativity, Inc.My Government Means to Kill MeThe ImmortalistsWordslutThe Swimmers Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Today I'm having kind of a meta moment, actually, because recently I shifted the podcast to have multiple co-hosts for my Friday, like buddy episodes. And the whole idea that I got that from was from a show that McKinsey Green, who's with me today, co-hosts with Taylor Strecker, where they just have different hosts all the time, or different co-hosts. So when I kind of needed to change some stuff up with my buddy episodes, I went that way. route. And then I, you know, was just feeling crazy and asked McKinsey if she wanted to be on one day. So now she's on this new co-host podcast. So welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm so honestly, I'm so excited. You have no idea. Oh my gosh. I am too. A couple of things about McKinsey.

She is the VP of Social for Who, What, Wear, and Click Grants. And also the social strategist for Who, What, Where, and Marie Claire. So you're all up in social media. That's the other thing we have in common. Not only books, but we're both chronically online. And I love hearing your takes on everything pop culture, too. So yeah, basically, I've been listening to you for like a year and a half or something. Oh, boy. Wow. We have a lot. We could always talk about it. I think. I'm glad it's the year and a half, because having to have been on the show now for four years. Like it's a lot of time, you know, it's funny. I think about Taylor's show a lot, like doing drag race as a huge drag race enthusiast. And I like to think of year one as like my first

season where it's like my drag's a little rough. Like I'm sure people could see the potential there. They were like, she has something. But I'm like people like yourself who've now gotten in like the last like two years. I'm like, okay. You've been here for the evolution. Yes. I feel like. because mine, I started, this is kind of been an interesting journey. It started out as between the lines where I just interviewed authors. So that started about four years ago. And then I made so many friends on Bookstagram, but specifically one named Gare. And so then we did kind of like a buddy podcast and then kind of merged them all together into one, into one brand here recently this year.

But same thing. When you go look at like my first year ones, like my setup doesn't look like this. this like everything is different. I don't think people understand. There's nothing funnier than looking back at stuff like that and having like those moments of cringe. Like I look back now and I'm like, oh, you guys enjoyed that? Like I still have a job doing this.

Yeah. And I would get, oh my gosh, I would get so nervous before them. And I still do. Same. Like the whole like you just like meet someone. You're kind of meeting them in person with video, but you're like, even if you've DMs and then you've never like figured out if you can like talk to each other. I used to get so nervous.

That people think I'm kidding whenever I say I get so incredibly nervous every single time before Taylor's. I think Taylor especially interviews like this, I'm already nervous, but it's like, all right, it's fine. It's not my vehicle. But that one, I have yet to come down. Oh my God. I'm like two seconds from throwing up every week. Oh my gosh.

That's why. Well, at least it's not just me. We also definitely have anxiety in common is what we've also learned. Oh, boy. Yes. Yeah. That's always fun. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, what I had started to notice, I know you have kind of a book club yourself as well. Yeah. Which you have to tell me more about that because I was looking for like links in your social. And I don't know. I know. So here's the funny part about this book club. So I.

obviously adore like what Reese Sperner's done, what like Jenna Bush Hager. And so I was looking, we were shooting a cover with Kyah Gerber. And she, I was looking at her Instagram and she just would like put up a book once a month. And she'd be like, hey guys, this is the book for the month. I highly recommend you read this with me. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I'm just going to do like a super chill, low maintenance like once a month. Just throw a book up on my IG and just like suggest people read it.

Well, people didn't want low key. They still don't want low key. As low key as I make this, they're like, I don't want a nonchalant book club. So it will slowly, so it's funny you say that I actually need to go and put all of the books from the book club in an Amazon storefront for folks. And I've even toyed with a couple of people who are like super into reading the books I suggest with like launching a broadcast channel for it. But it was always just meant to be like, hey, want to get back into reading? It's August. Read this.

But now people are like, girl, I want a club. I want to talk about it. So I'm like, okay, the streets are demanding. I will respect. Yeah. Yeah, that's what, because I've debated doing one. And it's like at this point, keeping up with like this with two or three episodes a week and then work seems to be enough.

But, you know, me or there's no me. I'm always like, let's just add something else. Like, let's try something. And also I'm sure you're a little bit like I am where it's like, I just enjoy reading so much. much that nothing is more of a bummer to me than when somebody is like, yeah, I just can't get into it. And I'm like, well, you just haven't read the right book. Like, you know, it's like the way I feel about Marvel. Whenever people are like, I don't like superhero movies. And I'm

like, you just haven't watched the right one. Your boyfriend made you watch the wrong one. Like, I just immediately go straight to like, the issue isn't the genre. It's the fact that you have, you know, so it's like immediately, you know, so it's like, I like spicy books. I'm like, you should watch the winter soldier. And then. they're like, why? I'm like, I have a movie for you if you like book talk spicy books. And then they're like, huh? And then on the flip side of somebody's like, I love Bridgeton, specifically season one. And I'm like, okay, so you like smut. I've got the book for you. Or if they're like, I like 24, I'm like, I got the book for you. Hold, please. Hold, yes. Yes. So the cool thing is

you definitely read multiple genres. Like you kind of read across the board. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I, it's not that I'm like, I want to be very clear. I do not look down on any genres. I just wish I could lock in to more. And mostly it's like thrillers and suspense. And kind of like, like, I have gotten into, I don't know if you've read, did you hear about Kitty Carr? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like that's sometimes those, like where it's like a saga and like deals with women's issues, that's kind of something I can normally get into. But I'm like normally in thrillers. So I'm excited to hear. hear about your range of taste because I've seen what you post about and you kind of read a little bit of everything. Oh yeah. I'm a huge believer in that. I had an incredible boss at Paramount when I was doing my summer MBA internship and I was working at Paramount Pictures and my boss at the time as myself and my co-intern, she was like, what's the last movie you saw? And I remember my co-intern was kind of like, she named something that was on Netflix. And I remember our boss was like, well, first of all, We work at a studio that puts out theatrical releases.

And she was like, so first tip is she was like, you need to go see movies and theaters. And then she said to us like, oh, so what's the last book you guys read? And we were kind of like, oh, I don't really read books. Like at that point in my life, I was like, I don't really read. I don't do this book thing. And she said, well, what is the movie you're working on right now, McKenzie? And I said, oh, I'm working on fences. And she was like, is that not based on a play that's in book form that you could?

And I was like, well, yeah, and she goes, we are in the business of storytelling. You guys better fall in love with story. You better go read all the books you can, watch all the shows you can, see the plays, listen to the music. And that's why a lot of times, like, when people tease me about, like, being a Broadway person or books or Marvel and all this stuff, I'm like, it's really, it was like an assignment my boss gave me that has stuck with me ever since. Yeah, yeah, just to be this consumer and lover of all content. So that's what drew me back to books. And then it's proven to be, she was totally right because now Hollywood is constantly buying up literary IP. And so I always feel so far ahead when I'm like walking into my office at BET Plus, you know, years later being like, there's a book called such a fun age.

We should look at this. Is this being optioned? And then within like six hours of asking my boss that question, they were like, Lena Waith has bought the rights to such a fun age. It was like, there we go. Yeah. That is awesome. That's so cool. Similarly, that's kind of, like, for a while,

one of my, part of my bio is, like, story lover, because it's like, it's like all of the stories. Like, that's where, like, I love movies. We've talked about movies before. We definitely both saw Deadpool and Wolverine on the same night and cannot stop quoting it. But I love movies. I love TV shows, and I love books.

Like, I just love stories. And I think it even kind of translates into pop culture stuff. too. The stuff about it that I'm interested is because it's why I think it's funny, I guess, like when I was in B school and I remember a girl said to me, she was like, you're very smart. I'm so shocked you like housewives. And I was like, what are you shocked about? I said, this is high drama. I said, we lived in Greek and Roman times. We would be watching this drama play out in like a hippodrome or whatever. Like we would be watching them perform a ridiculous one act play about being betrayed by a friend. I'm like the difference now is it just happening on a

beach with a bunch of women from Salt Lake City, Utah. Like, just get out of here. Yes. Yeah. I know. I love it. And it's like sometimes you need like, I don't think it's bad to say it's also easy to watch. Sometimes you need something that's easy to watch too. Absolutely. And I'm going to say a very pretentious thing that I don't want people to think I think I'm a genius, but But I'm going to say. So when Steve Jobs had that speech, I might be. But Steve Jobs had that quote about, like, genius is being able to connect seemingly disparate dots and make a complete story out of them. And so for me, you know, in the world of the thing that I do on Taylor's show, it's like, to me, that's kind of genius is to be able to hold like housewives, a thriller, politics, all this stuff at once and draw off all of them to,

create a level of like connecting the dots that go like oh and like I just I don't know I always feel like that's a sign of being clever is when you're like I saw this thing and I'm going to pull from over here and oh I'd like that too so I just yeah I love it for that reason too there was something you did that with was I think like the writer strike because you were kind of predicting something and then it did and I was like telling my husband I was like Tyler this girl who's on the Taylor Strzger shows this was going to happen. I mean, it's the same as I remember the wildest episode I ever had to do is Taylor wanted me to explain the state of the union to her.

And what people need to understand, your listeners need to understand is I'm just from D.C. I don't actually know politics. So it's always this funny thing when conversations like this start is that everybody's like, you're smart. You explain it. And I'm like, not politics smart, not poli-sci, not social study. And so I basically had to explain the state of the union on the fly using housewives. And I don't think people understand.

I don't get time to prep. That happened in real time. Like she literally was like, I don't understand the state of the union. And I was like, okay, so you have a housewives reunion. And the speaker of the house is Andy Cohn. And it was kind of like, and having to do this whole thing with her. And she was like, oh, and it's always, again, connecting the dots. It's like if I don't read a few nonfiction books about politics and how we got to where we are,

if I don't watch Housewives, and if I don't enjoy a little bit of satirical fiction about the state of American politics, none of that makes sense in my head. But in that moment, I was like, I think I can meld these. I think I can connect these three dots and hand her back something. Yeah. Yeah, that is the cool part. about stories in general, like the way that they can, like, you can learn about stuff, not that everything in fiction is like an accurate representation, but you can learn about

so many things sometimes in story forms still, too. You're entertained. Oh, your question about the book club, I use heavy quotations. The reason I also really wanted to do it and start sharing books with people is I'm also a firm believer in like, and fiction is undervalued for, what it can do to get you to step out of yourself for a second and judge a character, right? So I did, I'm a huge fan of stoicism. It's a very broy, douchy thing of me to say.

But I took Ryan Holiday's lead to read course or read to lead course. And one of the big parts of that course is about fiction. I think a lot of people who took the class thought it was going to be all like, we're going to read epictetus. No, we were like reading band books, reading fiction, all this stuff. And I believe in his idea that, like, you build your empathy muscle better through fiction. You get to step into another person's shoes, all of these pieces. And it's the, I heard Raphael Casal say it too on a podcast where he was like, it's much easier for me to get you to judge a character than it is to judge yourself.

And so, like, when I had, my government means to kill me was like the June book club pick, which it's a brilliant book. I think everybody should read it. Yeah, it's like one of my favorite books of all time. I always say it's like the gay Forrest Gump. A lot of people would reach out and be like, because there is a fictionalized version of Fred Trump in the book, that a lot of people, when they were reading it, were like,

I'm getting to experience this character because, in a new way, because I have now walked with this gay black man for so many chapters. And to now meet this person and compare them to the, other people. I'm able to step back and be like, that man is not good. And it was like, it's interesting to me what you can get somebody. Same thing was such a fun age. The minute I suggested that, I could have, I was like, this is the book. Like when people came to me in 2020 being like, you're very smart. What is the one book I can read to end racism? And I was like, oh, okay. I literally would hand them books like such a fun age. because I was like, enjoy because they would sit with that character, the mommy blogger,

and they'd be like, oh, oh, God, does she think because this girl works for her, they're friends? And I was like, and so now what does that tell us about our, you know, it's like, then you know, we're able to step back and be like, oh, my God, I have a coworker. I've never truly had a substantive conversation with who's black, but I tell people she's my friend. Yeah, yeah. there was really similar and I think the comp it was even a comp for it there's a book

while we were burning by Sarah Coffey yes did the same thing like you felt like uncomfy yeah the white character's perspective like you're reading it and you're like oh my god or it's like watching people I know now reading yellow face yellow face who are like oh my god or even just something as small as you said kitty car like people would come to me and be like I loved Evelyn Hugo. And I was like, okay. If you like Evelyn Hugo, read Kitty Car. And then I'm like, now, what do you notice about these two books?

And they're like, they're both set in Old Hollywood. I'm like, no, they're both about women who choose to pass to make it. So as you were reading, didn't that seem kind of crazy to you that when given a choice that, you know, it's like you can have a better conversation about these things when you hand them somebody that they're able to look at from like a bird's eye view rather than like, being in the month because like I had to stop posting nonfiction because I remember at one point one woman was like I was looking at your stories and I suggested hood feminism to my Alabama book club and I was like why would you do that? I was like ma'am and she was like within a month as they started

she goes well about 70% of the book club refused to read it after the first page and I was like I could have told you that wasn't the book I was like I would have told you the mothers by Brett Bennett or vanishing half or like something else. I don't want to tell you down that row. Yes. Yet the timing of you bringing this up is interesting because when this episode is airing, it will be right after an episode I did with someone named Hallie Sutton. We did a whole episode about empathy with books because there was a NYU did a study

and like showed that it does increase fiction does increase levels of empathy. And then what was interesting is they also found out the ones that the genres that did it the most was thrillers and romance. So we just kind of talked about, we talked about that a lot. But then we both talked about books that like we felt like helped you gain empathy for like something different. So this is going to be so cool that this episode is going to be coming on the heels of that. Off of your like empathy point, it's like I never was a romance reader. And I got into romance because 2020 living in Harlem, you know, world's locked down. I'm like when I'm not at work, I'm like attending, you know, demonstrations that are happening

right outside my door on Adam Clayton Powell. And it's like, and I would come home and I would read Jasmine Guillory romance novels. Like it was just, there was something so settling. about like coming from this crazy experience where you're like screaming, don't kill people that look like me. And then you're immediately like, okay, how do I decompress from this? I'll read these fluffy fade to dark romance novels where black women are the main character and these men are falling on.

You know, it was like, and people would just be like, girl, what are you doing? And I was like, it's really fun to live in. It was like, it's fun to live in this moment and be like, okay, when we get through all of this, This is the reality that's going to await all of us out there. That's really cool. Yeah. I love that. Thanks.

That's awesome. Listen, and then I was going to say I was radicalized in terms of I'm looking at my insane book case because I want to make sure I get. Yeah. And then she was gone. Oh, yeah. And we talk about thrillers. Yeah.

And we talk about like missing persons and all this stuff. Like that was a book that I, whenever people are like, I don't know, not true. trivialized, but like this conversation around like protecting women, all this stuff, I'm always like, I'm going to give you a book that is going to hurt your soul. Less. Like, never have I read a book that made me more like, oh, I need to, I need to go for a walk. I need to leave this room that I just experienced this story in because this was devastating. Yeah.

Yeah. I just read a book called Mad Woman that was a little bit similar to that. where like it's very heavy and it deals with like an adult woman who experienced domestic violence all through her childhood. So it is, it's like really heavy, but like I had 174 highlights because it's so good like what it's pointing out. But then you finish and you're like, okay, maybe I can do a popcorn thriller now. Oh yeah. Oh, um, that book grown. I don't, I can't remember the author's name, but it's like a fictionalized telling of the story of like a girl who got taken by R. Kelly. So I was one of those people that was very, not like I was victim blaming, but I was very kind of like,

you know, like, oh, wow, this is, why would people let their daughters get into this? And like, and what the book does brilliantly is it uses a character and a lot of people might not know this organization that's kind of like in Jack and Jill, which is an organization for black children who come from kind of like, I like to say they, come from affluent homes and they're the token in their world, but it's a place for them to come together. It's like over 100 years old, all this stuff. It's a nationwide organization. And the character is kind of a Jack and Jill kid who gets sucked into this world. So all of a sudden, you're already pulled out going, oh, so this isn't like some poor, desperate black girl. This is just

a very talented black girl that gets approached by one of the biggest singers producers in the world. And of course her parents would trust that this man wants to see her succeed. And then like I said, I went from like kind of judgmental. I mean, it was always, it was always F.R. Kelly, but it was like, I went from very kind of like, I don't know guys. At times, to immediately I was like, this is horrific. Yeah. Like, holy, wow, my God. And it was like, and all of a sudden I went from being one of those people that was like, yeah, he deserves to be in jail.

We also need to talk about these parents to immediately being like, screw that. The focus should just be these women and these girls. Because like, if this is the path that bought a lot of them there, not okay. Yeah. That's what my sister-in-law works with a nonprofit here who helps girls who've been trafficked, like kind of helps them like adjust back into life. and she had a similar experience where there's a town in Indiana that's like way more affluent than

everywhere else but it was a white girl but it same concept where like when she like drove to her house to like see her she's like this house is like a million dollar house which is huge in Indiana oh yeah my mom's was yeah yeah yeah you know Indiana enough yeah so she was having that same experience or she was like it really can just happen to anyone. Yeah. But I think the interesting thing, and this is coming from somebody who loves documentaries, all this stuff, like, it is a lot easier to get people to step back and read a story and go, oh, okay, this can happen to anybody or, oh, wow.

You know, it's like, it's such a deep thing. And I'm sure your audiences are like, is she always this dry? But like, like, I'm sorry. But I often times like, I think about little fires everywhere. Like that is such an interesting book where so many people can completely understand the conversations that are happening in that book. They can have feelings about the adoptive family of the girl. They have feelings about the family that moves there. They can do all of that.

If you put that same story on the news, people would not be able to have empathy and hold space for all three people. and also see what all three women did wrong. We most people would hear that on like a news thing and it would be like, this is the good team, this is the bad team. But when somehow, when you experience it in a story, you're like, huh, okay. Same thing. It's like we can read a war of war novel and be like, oh my God. Wow.

And what the soul. Meanwhile, like then we'll be like, I hate the military industrial complex. And it's like, yes, that. but also can you see how this young man had no choice in that or this young woman? Like there's so much more empathy we can express for a fictional character than we can for one another and even ourselves. Yeah. So I'm a, well, who knows if I've interviewed her at the time that this is released, but I'm going to be interviewing Marjan Kamali about she wrote the line woman of Tehran. And in the press kit, but they said just ahead of time, one of the first.

of the notes that she made is, I don't have it in front of me. One of her professors said, the historian will tell you what happened and historical fiction will tell you how it felt. And I was like, that is it. That's a bar. I like that. Again. I love that. That's a bar. Yeah. So then when I was reading her book, which is like, it's about 1950s to 1980s where like women went from having most of the the same rights as the rest of the world. And then in like 1979 to 81, just lost all of their rights. Yeah. And you do just feel it totally differently because you're like living with these two characters across their whole lives. And so you like feel how scary that would be to lose

everything, especially in an election cycle. It was a little bit freaky to read. Yeah. It's yeah, it's deeply, I don't know, it's, it's, I, I, this is going to sound, again, this will sound very pretension. but like I often feel, I don't know, I feel bad sometimes when people don't like books. Because I'm like, you don't like looking at dead trees and tripping for a couple hours? I'm like, it's amazing. It's so fun. You should try it. And you get the interiority.

That's like what I've heard about, like the empathy part is like, not that you don't have empathy when you watch certain movies, but you get the only medium you really get interiority of a character. and really could live in them is a book. Maybe, I mean, you with Joe Goldberg, like you're kind of getting his narration. Yeah, but it's like that's kind of, but I'll be honest, you actually probably hit on something. That's probably a bit of why we are deeply obsessed with that show

and why people are like, but Joe had good reason, because you are for one of the few times in TV history getting the interior thought where you're like, well, he didn't think he was doing any. He didn't plan on killing. peach. He just wanted to like keep, you know, it's like, I think that almost is, like, you might have just hit on something of like, that's a bit of why people are like, I know he's bad, but like,

he doesn't think he's bad. Because if you didn't have any of that inner monologue going, you just be like, that's a stalker. That's a, you guys don't see the stalker. But when he's in the bushes, being like, Beck, I love you. I'm doing this to protect you. You're like, well, he thought he was protecting her. Like, it's the same as when you're reading a book and you're like, this person's a monster. And then you're kind of like, yeah, but they weren't trying to be. That's really common in thrillers is something I talk about. I love like plot lines that are kind of, you know, the prologue is something where you're

like, why the fuck did they do that? And then you're working up to it. But I like love stories where you're like, I don't know how this person got to this place. And then you read it and you're like, oh, I would have gotten to the same place. A million percent. Like, I am terrified of my own shadow. I'm afraid of everything in terms of like, I don't, I don't like scary movies. But I had recently followed in love with like horror books. Specifically, Grady Hendricks's books. And when I tell you it's that thing where it's like, it's not just, boo, it's not just the jump scare. It's like, this was the thought and this is the

story behind like why these puppets are possessed and blah, you know, it's like, and now the snake puppet is creeping out of the bat and you're like, what the what? Like it just makes it a lot. I don't know. It makes it less like, I'm just here to scare the shit out of you. And it makes it more like, oh, wow, whoa. It's kind of like why I love like deeply thought, not thoughtful like horror movies, but like

the horror movies I do like. It's like there's more to it than. just jump scares. It's like it's polterge it's bad seed. I think we could technically consider the purge horror movies even though I love them so much. I don't know why. Those on the other hand,

love them. Go to Halloween horror nights just to see the Purge show every year now and I'm like, this is the most I'm cheering and people are horrified and I'm like, murder, murder, murder, like. But yeah, like there's certain genres

I can partake in as books. over like TV. Yeah. Honestly, that was reminding me of us that we saw a lot in theaters. That one scared the shit out of me. I think that's the most. But see, those are like, but then also this gets to my other thing about like reading and books is like there are certain screenplay writers that when they write or playwrights who get into literature or like screenwriters who release the screenplay as like a book you can read. those people, I'm like, writers, story.

That is all it is. I'm like dope storytell. Yes. Our dope story. Like Jordan Peel sees a movie in his mind the same way I can see a movie when I'm reading a really well done book. Like the same thing. Like when I hear certain playwrights are like, I want to get into writing now. I'm like, this is going to be amazing.

I cannot wait to see what this is because you're going to have to now write out the full exterior moment that's happening. would usually happen in the stage directions. Or it's like, you can read August Wilson plays as books. And you're like, this is stunning. Even just to read. I don't even need to see this perform to understand what I'm seeing. Yes, I love that feeling. It's okay.

Just lock in with something. Yeah. I always say one of the greatest storytelling moments I ever experienced professionally was working on fences, going to a screening and all, and it was like, stuff was still getting color corrected and all this stuff and watching Viola Davis

do that monologue with literally minimal stuff done to the screen and just being like, what? The same thing, the late great Chadwick Boseman, like if people want to see some acting, watch Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, there is a monologue that Chadwick Boseman has in that,

that like, you, for me it made me cry not just because the monologue was amazing i was like wow we just lost that like we'll never get to see that again and it's just but like that's good writing that's good storytelling that's what i kind of ran into that um with uh the quiet place movie that just came out day one my god so good no i went into it like i should have known i was going to weep because i weep in all of the first one I was just like leaving the theater so like I should have remembered that these are not just horror films

but then they turned this one into like a meditation on death and wanting to live and like all in the last 15 minutes I was just like oh I was a mess the last 50 because I just kept I mean spoiler no spoiler but I kept being like girl you jump too and then it hit me like oh no she she was in hospice she had come to

terms with dying. She had made the choice. And it was like, but he didn't. So I don't want to take that choice from him because I know what choice I'm making. And I've always wanted to do it on my own terms. And it was like, so, and I was just like, I was also really concerned about the cat because I was like, but then when I realized he, yeah, but then when I realized he had it, I was like, okay, because I was real concerned.

I was like, girl, you're going, you're going to take this cat down. Make me care about a cat this time. Yeah, I know. And I was like, I don't even like cats. and I grew up with one. Yes. Yeah, it was like the moment that I realized, I don't know if you've heard,

Ram Dass has a quote, like, we're all just walking each other home. Yeah. And it was like when they, with that scene in the bar, like, it's very quiet.

I mean, everything, a lot of it's quiet. But when we got to that point, I was like, we're all just walking each other home and I just couldn't stop crying the rest of the time. But when you,

but when we talk about like writing, right? It's like, that's a screenplay where I'm like, I don't care if it's 20 pages of like a november. Bella, I would love to see what was put on a page that elicited both Lupita Nyago and Joseph Quinn to be like, I can do this. Yeah. She is stunning.

Yeah. I mean, so much of that movie is all face. Yeah. And it's moments like that that make you go, oh, that person is a storyteller. Like, she can take Nikita from Black Panther. She can take a slave from 12 years of slave. Like she can take anything. She could take dead silence and give you back so much.

And it's just like, and that's where like I'll never not love story. Like, and I'm forever so grateful to Karen Harmelin for saying that. Because it's like, because being able to see performances like that or like because of Karen, I went to see the color purple musical. So like being able to see a Cynthia Revo tell, you know, it's like it's why I've picked up certain books. You know, it's like how I've fallen in love with Percival Ever and had red trees before American fiction happened and immediately told everybody I knew before the movie even came out. I was like, American fiction is going to be it because there's this writer I just discovered

who like is doing the damn thing. And my friends were like, okay, but what's the movie? I said, I don't even care. But it's like, it's such a gift to give yourself to ingest an experience story. It's like when I started the job I'm in now, I came into, again, a lover of content in all the ways it's given. I was like, I even said our first meeting with my boss, she was like, what's your dream? And I said, I want to make the fashion version of hot ones. I don't know what that is. And at the time, she was kind of like the chicken wings. And I said, it's not a chicken wing eating thing.

I said, it is this insane, in-depth conversation where actors are put in an uncomfortable situation, but they're also sharing in the discomfort with, a stranger they just met probably five minutes. Like, there's just such a, I don't know, I'm such a nerd for story that like I get so excited about like storytelling and content and what that is and just being like, it's all cool, guys. That's what he, he's such a great interviewer. That's why like those are so fun. He really does such specific like research for it.

Yeah. And there's, I have another podcast on my platform called Impost. hour and it's with Greg and why can't I think of Liz's like well just with like grisen grisen leg oh my gosh Liz and Frank I was thinking I needed their last names but I didn't but anyway they were talking they're the gist of theirs is like talking about imposter syndrome they're both writers they write together but they're talking about imposter syndrome in general like when you're trying to create something yourself and then also like characters who are imposter. So like cons and stuff like that.

Yeah, I love that. He told me a cool story because I was telling them, I was like, I really appreciate how vulnerable you guys are as well on this podcast. Because like in their first episode, they're talking about like, I wrote my first manuscript on my own, like not together and nobody bought it. And he's just like talking about that feeling. So I was like, I think it's so cool that you guys are sharing that. And so he brought up a story and said when they were doing hot ones, initially it was just

going to be that the guest did them. And then, like, right before they started filming, they had this realization. They're like, no, you have to do it with them. Like, it has to be a like, we're doing this together. And he was like, so that's how we wanted to approach our podcast. And I was like, that's just brilliant. And like it's silly, again, all leads back to storytelling. It's like, as a storyteller, if you were to read a story where one person is suffering,

like, you'd be like, oh, okay. Like, you would have a lot of questions about the other character that's putting them through this torture. But like that comes from like a self-awareness of how will this story be received. How will this video be received if you are just putting somebody through hell? Or will it be perceived as fake because people already don't trust actors and actresses and feel like there's a level of a put on. And like, and so it's like that stuff takes a self-awareness that I'm sure you guys probably talk about in the podcast episode. It's like it takes a self-awareness to step out of yourself, a level of empathy to be able to be like, what do we?

I need to do right now. So somebody else ingesting this content receives what I'm really trying to get across. And that requires you to build up your empathy muscle, build up the ability to step outside of yourself. You know, it's like, you know, like you said, it's like a lot of times when people talk politics and they're like, oh, I'm like, I've driven across the country multiple times. I've driven across the country in 2020 in the middle of lockdown. I've driven back across the country in 2020 at kind of what people wanted to be the end of lockdown. You know, it's like all of these things. And I'm like, I've driven across country in the middle of, you know, 2017, where people felt very emboldened about what they could say to my mother and I. And it's like,

and I'm like, but that empathy muscle got built because you can't not kind of step back and understand a little bit of somebody's feelings in like a random town in Colorado because you're like that person is doesn't understand why the Walmart, the one Walmart in their town is closed in the middle of lockdown. They're like, I respect and like they're coming from a place of like what there's no other food. There's no other store here. There's no random farmer's market that's going to pop up out. My Walmart corporate is not setting up an outdoor shopping area for me and my family. And so it's like there's so much empathy to be built by experiencing things.

And my whole thing to people is if you can't drive across country, pick up a book, step into the shoes of somebody. I'm like, because immediately you go, oh, I see how that person in that random town in Colorado I just drove past where the Walmart is closed, but LeBron James is on TV talking about white privilege and you're like, I'm going to fight this man. What is he talking? And it's in those moments that I'm like, I can understand where the anger is coming from. Yeah.

Now I'm going to try to help you through this if you really are asking a question in good faith, what the F is LeBron talking about. But I also know what your anger's rooted in. And I also know the disinformation or like the false narrative you've received. And it's like, and in those moments I'm like, so might I suggest to you? you if you're open to it, you know, invisible man. Their eyes were watching God. Like, you know, it's like even when I see anything, like,

whenever people ask me and we'll get into it talking about my favorite books, but it's like when people ask me like, what's my favorite business book? I'm like, it's a fiction book that has one line in it that has been like my North Star professionally ever since the moment I read it. I see. But it's also my thing of like if somebody were to say, how do I understand what you're saying? Like, how do I understand the point you're making about like black women or whatever in this country?

I'm like, here's this book. Read this. Read how silly the thought is within this book of this entire town that everything could be blamed on this one black woman. And even in her death, they can't come to comprehend that maybe she wasn't the source of all their problems. And then it's kind of like you're able to go, oh, cool. So, yeah.

I'm sure your audience is like, this lady likes to. ramble. Sorry guys. That's the audience. I'm assuming that's the audience I've developed. I actually in that empathy episode earlier talked, there's Kelly Garrett

wrote a book called Missing White Woman and the first I heard about this. So good. And the first chapter is like you're immediately terrified because of this black woman is arriving at

like her boyfriend's Airbnb, but she's arriving at night. And she's in a city that's not her hometown. And so she's feeling like, okay, I kind of need to pay attention. So like the first chapter is really just for like walking from her car to like getting to the door and like seeing a white woman behind her who's like just watching everything she's doing. And so you're like so nervous the whole time in this first chapter. And so all of the thrill and a decent amount of the suspense of this book is actually just that she's scared to me in a new town, uh, as a black woman. Then she walks, this is in the synopsis, she walks downstairs after they're like third day there. And her boyfriend's not there and there's a dead white woman at the bottom over the stand.

I literally, I read, saw this book and I was like, you know, I got to read this. And then I was like laughing because I was like, this is the kind of book that if I read and I post, I get at least one DM that's like, I have questions. And I'm like, I don't have answers. read it read the book some of them have a podcast episode with them so if you do or with Kelly

there we go I do you you and my friend Tracy are my go to now like especially that's going to happen with that but like my friend Tracy who does the Stacks

podcast like so often when people are like what's this book about I'm like just listen just listen to this I'm not going to explain it well just go listen yeah

yeah it's when I can't think about the other black girl has like the epigraph at the beginning like black history is black horror. And now I was just like, holy shit. And so now every time I read a book that feels that way,

I just keep remembering that quote over and over again. Truly. And that don't even get me started on that book. I'm like, that is a book that like I've always trying to explain to people. I'm like, it is. I'm like, it's weird. But also there are moments of it that I'm like, okay. I am also that way about Luster by Raven Lalani.

Like the first time I read it, I remember being like, this character is so annoying. I can't stand out. And I interviewed Tessa Thompson for work. And we ended up getting into a whole conversation about books. And I said to her, you guys just option luster. Like that character, she's pretty awful, right? And I remember Tessa was like, yeah, there's been a lot of really annoying white, like,

protagonists of books for quite a long time. And she was like, I read it. And I'm like, there's no difference between that girl and Lena, like, and Lena Dunham's character and girls. And it was like, but the problem is we're so used to like black exceptionalism. that watching this girl make just like stupid decision after stupid decision were like, that's not what you're supposed to do. And she was like, but that's kind of like a thing we need to embrace is like sometimes

black women do dumb, reckless shit too. And I was like, oh, you're right. You said that about challengers too. And that stuck in my head. Truly. Yeah. That was the part that stuck with me about that movie because I kept waiting for like Tashi to be good or like give a pep talk that was going to encourage someone.

And then I had to sit back and be like, why do I think it's her job to make like either of these guys feel good about themselves? Yeah. Totally. It was just like, it was. I was just like, oh, my God, I'm expecting her to like be nice or focused or like, I don't know. Or I was expecting like the character to be like very like serenicoded where she's like quiet confidence and all this stuff. And then I'm just like, oh my God, you're such a bitch. And then I was like, oh, wait, you're allowed to be a bit.

Like, yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's what there's this interesting, it's a weird connection. But Amna Oktar is one of my favorite authors as well. And she just posted about, so her first book is called Fashion Victim. Yes. I heard about this.

Oh, it's good. And then her next two, or next two books, the main characters are Desi Women, as she, Amina is as well. Yeah. when I interviewed her for Kismet the first time, she told me about fashion victim. Fashion victim is a white woman as the main character, but she's like a serial killer within. Yeah.

I read almost Shirley Dead of hers. I got like an ARC of that, and I was like, yeah, it was, whew. So wild. But it was like, you know what I love, but again, this is like my thing I love about books. It's like, I'm not the target. Like, she wrote that and has terms and words in there that I had to, like, go look up,

find out the pronunciation. And I love that about authors now. We do. Like, that, like, because true biz is like a perfect example of where, like, it is a, there are moments of it that I'm like, you wrote this for hearing people. Because, like, there are most, but, but again, well, I mean, I'm just giving away one of my top five favorite books. But, like, my government means to kill me. there's such a great point that the author makes because he heavily uses footnotes.

And he was like, this book was made and written for queer people, specifically queer black men. And he was like, if you don't get the reference, go to the footnotes. Because I will not stop this story to explain to you what friend of Dorothy means, what good Judy means, why Donna Summer is important, why Pearl Bailey matters. like who this person was to the black gay community in the 80s. Like I will not explain it to you because we are here telling a story to each other. And if you are not part of this community, head down to the footnotes. And you can educate yourself on what this is about. It's like, and it's just, yeah.

Love them. Yeah, because I similarly, I do love reading books where I'm just like experiencing someone else's culture even just because like to your point about travel. traveling. Like, I'm not necessarily going to travel many places, but I can with books. Yep. That's sequel as Khunjabi widows. With Omina, she, um, she felt like she had to make her first character white because she didn't think the world was ready for a DESE woman being a serial killer. And I was like, I can't argue with you. But that's what I'm saying. I'm obsessed with that. Like, um, uh,

the bandit queen is like a perfect example of that where it's a book that is largely a about DESE culture. It's about the caste system in India. It's about the subjugation of what, like there are, I had to switch to the audio book because I said, I don't know what some of this means, but I like it. I like that I'm not the target and that this was obviously not written with me in mind. And I love that. You know, it's like there's so many books I experienced like that same, you know, same thing with another book I had once for book club, which is, what the heck is the book called. Where is it on my shelf? Rude. How dare you not be close by me? But it's, it's like a book about a bunch of like really extraordinary, like some are super wealthy, some are not, scholarship

students, all this stuff of Chinese students at like Harvard, MIT, like the schools in Boston, and they're bought together by a very wealthy Chinese billionaire to steal back Asian antiquities from the major museums. like it but like the thing is it's not written for me it is truly written for chinese people about kind of like this question constantly of do these museums need to give back the antiquities that they stole through imperialism and all this stuff but like what's so wild is you still enjoy it it is still like an ocean's 11 style heist from beginning to end but there are much bigger conversations happening in it grace delete that's the author is grace delete and i cannot remember the name of it. Who cares? Um, but, um, but it's like, it's so, I don't know. It's just, it's so portrait of a thief. It is so wild to me, like when people, again, it's that empathy muscle. It's like, hey, I could just make you sit down to watch an hour long YouTube video about stop Asian hate and you'd be, or like, why museums need to give stuff back and you could probably

say some of the stupidest stuff to me, but like here. And simultaneously, your mind is blown because off of of the author's point, I realize as I'm reading it of like, oh, these characters, this one character that is this Asian woman who's like really loud and brash and like rides a motorcycle and all this stuff. I was like, oh, this, I didn't need to see this character. But there is right now a young Chinese girl who isn't the stereotype who needed to see this character on the page. the whole representation in stories

is powerful and I'm not I never want to sound like oh I'm a white person who understands things but speaking of 2020 when like a lot of that was happening

and even my friends here a lot of them were being asked to explain race and I know you did it as well and so but then the white people around me would be like,

I didn't know that like they were still scared to get in their car or like at night. But you know what's funny about story is that you want to turn to that person and go, this is news to you. And it's like, yeah. And you're like, might I introduce you to Tony Morrison, Zora Nile Hurston, James Baldwin, like Octavia Butler?

Like I can give you at least six authors who've been trying to tell you this whole time that you know it's like do you think jordan peel made get out just from like a place of fantasy it's like no i mean from where i was realizing like i don't have tons of black friends in indiana i mean they exist but what i was realizing was it had been the representation in stories was the reason like this stuff wasn't shocking me like it's like i thought it was a great thing right but it's like black it had just been like dealing with like all kinds like people i knew who had read the hate you give yeah

one. We're like immediately following Trayvon Martin, we're like, why are people confused? And I was like, or they were reading the hunger games. And I remember like, to this day, I have a friend who's like, like, the most like white woman from Indiana ever. She's one of my Kappa sisters. And she goes, when I was reading the Hunger Games and they were describing Rue and Thresh, I was like, oh, they're in a like farmingish agriculture in town. Everybody's poor and the skin is described as like amber. She was like, I amyed. was like so confused when Amanda Lestemberg got hate as a child. She was like, because I read that book and I was like, oh, they're talking about the

subjugation and disadvantaged poor people get into across all socioeconomic practice. She's like making a great point and I just disappear. Story of my life. Listen, I know podcasting. Podcasting 101, don't you? Oh my gosh. There we go. I feel about astrology.

Like I'm very open to it, but it doesn't always match me. But some people were like, the moon is giving you tech issues. And I'm like, I'm convinced that's why I have my anxiety attack because it was the super blue moon. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what you were saying to. Yeah.

My mom was, my mom immediately went to, it's the moon. And I was like, lady, I'm chemically imbalanced. And she was like, it's also the moon. I know. That's what when you said that, it made me realize, because I was having last week, like, what I've now come to realize, like, you can have emotional flashbacks that are happening in your subconscious. Yep. And you're with them. And it probably happens to me.

once, maybe twice a year. Like, I've been through enough therapy. It doesn't happen as often, but it was totally happening. I was like waking up, feeling, like, I wake up and I feel like I'm little and young and like, how am I going to do adult things today? And you just have to be kind of tell yourself like, it'll go away if you just keep doing stuff, I guess. Well, you know, it's also really funny. Yeah, when you're like highly self-aware, like you just said the, the magic word, when you're like, when I've been through therapy and I know stuff, again, things I've taught myself through reading about stoicism, which is the basis for a lot of therapeutic stuff. Like it was a funny moment when I'm like honest about it.

And people are like, do you think I'm like, no, no, the sheer fact that I just named all the feelings and the things, you're on the other side. If I got on here and was behaving like I was a couple days ago or feeling like I said those things, then we could all be like, are you okay? And I'm like, the fact that I'm now on here being like, well, I was having anxiety. None of those feelings were real. My panic was completely. unwarranted and I had a small bout

of depersonalization. I'm like guys, that is a clear indication. Your girl is fine. We are now able to step back and be like, none of that was real. I was scared for no reason. Yeah. But again, speaking of the story, it's like I tell everybody I know.

I'm like, go see inside out too. And I'm like, if you want to understand what anxiety feels like, I'm like, that will perfectly explain it to you. And truly at one point in my journal, I just wrote, okay, Joy, it would be great if now you could just tell anxiety to let me go. I know, and I even said it in my like calming myself down.

I kept saying, I know you're trying to be helpful. Girl, I know you were doing the best. I know you are trying really hard. And you think that spending this entire weekend walking through every worst case scenario that is coming on Monday is the best use of our time. But it is not. And I was like, and while you're at it, please stop replaying everything that could potentially be proof that you're right. So go away. You got to stop, girl. Yes. Yeah. And it is,

some of that of the stoicism, some of it is a little more Buddhism as well. But like if you're able to, I love Pete Holmes. He just has some like cool takes on spirituality. As somebody who is also very deeply Christian, but also aware that all the other religions hold a lot of validity. Yes. I love Yes. Like when I run across his stuff, I feel like I'm like, wherever Pete is on, this is where I'm like, what I try to explain people are like, Elsie, you're like Christian. I'm like, okay, so I'm going to introduce you to a couple people. Yeah, exactly. This makes sense. Yeah. And he from so I think it was Buddhism is like where it was coming from. But I think they all have a lot common. But he talked about like if you can like sit there and close your eyes and like feel. your big toe. Yes. And you're like, okay. I'm glad we heard the same thing because I remember once hearing he talked about in Buddhism where he was like, he was like, just put your hands down. And he was like, just feel your hands. Yeah. And that was in yoga when I was having a full blown panic. I just

went, you know what? I'm going to get in child's pose. And I'm just going to feel my forehead and my hands on the mat. And I could hear the instructor literally being like the woman who's usually doing pushups between Chattaronga is just in child's pose. Like, like, trying to figure out where life is. And I was like, yep, yep, this is where I am. Yeah. And he used it as an example of being able to be like, so even if you put all your focus in your big toe and you're like just really aware of your big toe, then zoom back out

and remember you're not your big toe. Like you are like all of it. Yeah. That is still to this day something I use when I'm having overwhelming, anxious thoughts. I'm able to like be like, I am a. experiencing anxiety. I am not anxiety, but I am experiencing it. And even if it doesn't make it go away, it helps me just like keep living until like something shakes loose. But I love it. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, do you have time to talk about books? I know we've been in

talking. Absolutely. Are you crazy? This is why we do stuff early in the morning, girls, so that we can have time to give gab for no reason. For the audience, I'm just talking, talking her ear off. Um, yeah, no. So you want me to go through my top five faves? Yes. Yes. Okay. As you guys know, like typically when someone kind of first comes on, like, what are the books that define your reading taste? Oh man. That's kind of, okay. Okay, here we go. So this is very hard. I hope the audience understands when you love books, this is incredibly hard because you love everything. So the first one that I think kind of tells who I am as a reader and what I love is, um, Creativity, by Ed Catmull. I read that book every single year. It's kind of the first nonfiction book I got

into when I got back into reading. So it's like, I don't know, it's really beautiful. Ed Catmull is the co-founder of Pixar. And through that, he somehow manages to tell his journey from like kid in Utah through to running Disney animation. And there's, he just tells a beautiful story. But he also weaves in like business advice. And then I would say the most standout part of the entire book is the last chapter, which is about his relationship with Steve Jobs. Wowie Zowie, you want to talk about the power of story. It's like we all know what we know about Steve. We know what his child has said about him. But there's just something really profound about like realizing through that chapter a legacy is not something you can control, but all you can hope is

like one person on this earth when you're gone remembers you fondly and like loves you. And there's just something really beautiful about that chapter. I cry every time. Like I've never read it. But there's something really beautiful about like the whole world thought Steve Jobs was just an asshole full stop. And here's like one person who tries to tell everybody he wasn't all bad. And so I don't know.

I think about that a lot. I get more emotional about it every year because I think about that a lot with like different leaders and business people we have. And it's like, how will history remember them and who will kind of hold the torch that they were a good person? So love that. That's like my first one. I love that. That is fascinating because there is someone who probably loves the most crazy people.

Right? It's like I think to myself, like, I know what I think of Elon. I know how most of us. But I'm like, who is going to be the person that like, or is there? Like that's the other part. It's like, is there going to be somebody who will outlive him and, like, write something to, like, he didn't get everything right, but here's the thing. And it's not because I'm Ewan sympathizer. Please don't DM me.

I call him apartheid Clyde, guys. But, like, I just, it's something so fascinating. Well, somewhat similar. I want to be very clear. I am not a Donald Trump supporter. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It's like, like, Theo Vaughn.

Yes. him on his podcast. And I saw a clip of Donald Trump just like having a conversation. Right. And I realized I'd never seen it, you know? It was just like this weird thing where he's like asking Theo like, because Theo's just an open book and he's like, yeah, I was on cocaine for a while. And Donald Trump's like, and what did you like about it? That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's like you're almost like, yeah, it's like there's this black comedian I love. And he's like a huge fan of Joe Rogan. the same thing, Patten Oswald. I adore Patton Oswald.

And Patton Oswald will be like, I've known Joe Rogan for decades. And he's like, he's not all bad. And it's like, meanwhile, it's like anybody who knows Patton is like, wait, but I thought you were going to be like he's. And he's like, no, he's like, I have a lot of critiques. But I'm just like, that's crazy. So I love that's like, that's my first book. The next one I've teased so many times, which is my government means to kill me by

Rashid Newsom. that book is that book is the book that like it made me want to start my little digital book club because I literally was like I just need people to read this book I just need the whole world it is brilliantly done story I love I love the use of footnotes like truly it is so cool because every chapter every single thing is like the most niche specific like commentary or moment towards like black queer people. and you're like, what? And then all of a sudden you go to the footnotes and he's fully explaining it and you're like, oh, thanks. Like it feels like you are getting to like eavesdrop on like somebody's personal conversation, but then there's like a friend on the side who's like, hey, so that means blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you're like, oh, thank you so much. But it's also just so brilliantly done. It really is a black gay forest gum because I have to read this. You have to read it. There are literally characters you encounter as the character is going that you're like, oh my god that's byrd rusting holy crap oh my god that's fred trump oh my god he oh my god like just like it truly is forest gum where you're like you're at a party with pearl bailey oh my god you're in a party with this person oh my god that's how angels in america got like that's not how

it got written but he makes you feel like it could possibly be how this happened it's so good it's so good now this third gosh it takes place in indianapolis i just saw the synopsis Yes, that's also what made me pick it up. It's because my mom had a really good friend growing up that she and this friend, he was queer, drag queen, all this stuff. His family didn't support him, but my grandmother did. And so he was kind of like, well, if Phyllis is going to go off to New York, you guys can go off together. And so it made me think of him as well because, you know, I never got to meet him. He died of AIDS long before I was born, I think even before my parents met.

but like I oftentimes say that like I assume Stan is my fairy godmother a lot of times and like and I think about him a lot. Um, probably even more now as I get older and my mom gets older because I'm like, he would have had all the stories. He would have been able to like tell me even more. So yeah. So yes, I highly recommend it because it does start with him leaving Indiana. And for anybody that's from Indiana or has deep roots in Indiana, when you find stuff that involves

Indiana. That was me with Kurt Vonnegut. Kat's Cradle, the minute he's dropped like Indianapolis and I was like, this is the greatest book ever. Yes, nothing happens here. Yeah. People are like, what? I'm like, you have to read this. It's amazing. My third book is a little controversial. I know people hate this book whenever I say it, but it is Chloe Benjamin's The Immortalist. Oh, I have not... When I tell you people, people hate this book so much, but I love this book so deeply. Now, this is... So when I got back into reading, I had come back from Paramount.

My boss had admonished us about how we needed to consume content. And I was like, books, and she was like, and books. And I was like, ugh, books. And so that was around the same time that Emma Roberts launched Bellatrist. And so I was reading all the Bellatrist picks. And this was a bellatrous pick that I was like, are all books like this? Because people have to understand. I grew up dyslexic.

I also went to very hoity tooty private schools where you were like forced to read Jane Eyre, damn near every year. I hate that book so much. Wuthering Heights. Oh my God. I wrote a whole dissertation once my freshman year about how Emily Bronte is a nepo baby. At the time, it wasn't even, what's crazy is this wasn't even a term. So at the time, I wrote a whole paper about how Emily Bronte only got to where she is because of nepotism.

And I remember people were like, what? And I was like, yeah. And I turned it in my teacher. I was very proud. I was like, enjoy this lady's horrible. You've been true to yourself from the beginning. I have. Like when that audio on TikTok of like, Maddie knew who she was even at a young age, that was me.

I have always been like 10 toes down in my nonsense. But I got into, but like this was the book that truly. made me be like, are books like this? So it's about the gold siblings. They are four siblings living in kind of like, I would assume like 60s, 70s, Brooklyn. And they go to a fortune teller who tells them all the day they'll die. That's how the book starts. So you don't know as a, you just know that each kid goes in and then they come out. And then the book goes from there of Like, and so what I love about the book, as somebody who loves the concept of mental morey and all this stuff, is seeing how each of the siblings takes that news. Some siblings choose to live boldly and loudly.

Others choose to just constantly put themselves in danger because it's like, I already know what I'm going to die. So who cares? Like they live in a reckless way that you're constantly kind of like, oh, okay. Others are like paranoid looking over their. shoulder constantly and not able to fully be present in what they're doing. And then like others just close themselves off in the world and live such a sad existence. And what's interesting is seeing how the ones with the shortest time to live to the longest time, which one is which and how they take that information. And it's just, I don't know, it's, again, it's like a great

yeah, it's a great like commentary on like mortality and what do you do with this life that you're given and like what would you do with that information? And it's like every time I read it, I find myself being like at different, you know, that whole Epictetus quote about, you never step in the same river twice. It's like every time I read it, I have like either more or less empathy

for a different gold sibling depending on where I am in life. Yeah. Where all of a sudden I'm like, well, he had a point. Or I'm like, I could see how he got to that conclusion. Or like, I can see why she would pick that as the option. So it's like, it's the, I love that book. I love it so much. What was controversial about it?

People just hate it. People are just like, it is not well written. And I'm like, you're dumb and I don't listen to you. I'm like, you shut your dirty horish mouth. Like I lose my mind about. That's interesting. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, there's one coming out from Leanne Moriarty that sounds somewhat similar.

She's her next one that comes out in September is like everyone on a plane. is told when they're going to die. I'm obsessed with that. And then you follow them after they get off the plane. I love that so much. Yeah. I would say my fourth one is Amanda Montel's word slut. I love words.

I love words. I do too. I love big words. I love figuring out how to use words differently. I love challenging why it's bad to say like. Or I love when people want to battle as a Gen Z speaker. A-A-A-V-E, all of this. Is there such a thing as gay voice, all that stuff? She gets into all of those things in the book and I am obsessible. When I read this book, I immediately started putting together

in my phone like a list of books about linguistics because I was like, I've got to know more. I've got to know more about words. This is the coolest thing I've ever experienced. So like, yeah, guys, read it. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah, because you, yeah, you like, always know the words that are coming in it. That's another thing Taylor's often asking. He was like, what does this even mean? Yes. That's always my favorite.

It's like the way she thinks, the way she thinks I'm smart, truly fascinating. I'm like, I'm like, who's going to tell everybody that I'm a dumb dumb, making things up in real time? And then the last, I mean, truly. And then the last book I love, it's Julie Atsuka. and it's the swimmers. Okay. As a former Division I swimmer, junior Olympian,

I went into everything. Literally everything. I've been a lifelong member of Overachievers Anonymous. Like I went into this book. It was recommended by a friend. I went into this book because rarely do things

get written about swimmers. So I went into this book being like, is this a book about swimmers? I'm here to critique it. And it is so much bigger than that. And I'm so grateful I did pick it up. It is, it's more about like a master's swim group. And you get little snippets and vignettes of the stories of the people that come consistently

to this shitty basement pool to swim laps and why. Yeah. And then you leave the pool with one of the swimmers who also has a mother with dementia. And so the caregiver part of the story also. correct me because as somebody who's been in a caregiver position for a while now, it's just the book is brilliant. It's beautiful. It's short. It's profound. It is like, it's one of those books where it's so good. Like, you know when you read a book that's so good and you're like, this book needs to be turned into a movie immediately. It is one of those books that is so, so good

that I said, nobody should ever adapt this. This will never make sense in any other format than on a written page. And that's the way it should be left. and it should never be touched. And like this should be assigned in schools because this is a really special piece of work. So yeah, those are like the five that I think Samia's a reader. I mean, of course I cut out. It was hard to do because I'm like part of me almost wanted to be like, let's pick one thriller, one smuddy book, one mystery, one horror. But I was like, I'm going to go with these.

It's a nice little mix of nonfiction fiction. Yeah, that sticks with me. Yeah. Yeah, that's why, because often we'll have different, like, subjects for our podcast. And all of us, like, me included, you, like, go through that. You're like, and what is the perfect criteria for me to make the perfect answer to this? And, like, sometimes you just need to, like, I don't know, what does your gut tell you? Just, like, find some books to talk about.

And I think it was really cool about this of, like, pulling. It's like, you know, when you watch those criterion collection videos and people, like, pull movies, like, for the most part, you can all kind of. subjectively say like, oh yeah, you know, collectively as a group be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this movie is great because the way the director, but it's like using the Immortalist as a perfect example. When I read that book, I clearly see and hear and feel more than most people I know are seeing hearing and feeling when they read it. And I think that's almost the funny thing about books is like, you know, I hand you this piece of this big block of dead trees and you're not

seeing the same stuff when you're tripping, reading it. But I'm like, I'm seeing the the whole world. You know, it's like, I forever love Stephen Colbert that like when he cracks open Lord of the Rings, he sees and feels everything. And it's like, whoa. It's like, meanwhile, the first time I read chain gang All-Stars, I could feel like, because I love idiocrycy. I love gladiator.

So all of a sudden, I could see the entire thing. I was like, I was seeing Terry Cruz as president Camacho, like trying to chase down and kill prisoners in, you know, the monster truck. So it's like, I don't know. That's also the cool thing about books is everybody's tripping out a different way and seeing different things. Yeah.

I remember when that first dawned on me that like the author and some authors don't even see see things either when they're writing it. That's the crazy part. But like in general, the author sees something and writes it. Yeah. And then they send it off. And like every single person who reads it is having a different experience in their brain because some people also don't even see things. They always feel like they're like reading words.

Exactly. Which would be why. I don't know. Yeah, those people, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, how are, how are you living? The first time somebody said that to me when they were like, well, I just read words because I'm always working on like reading faster. And they were like, yeah, you just turned down the. And I said to turn down the sub vocalization. And they were like, what? And I said, when you're like narrating. Like you can hear it in your head when you're, and they were like, who's voice? And I was like, what do you mean who's what? What do you hear when you read? They were like nothing. I was like, right. This is like the worst experience of my life. You hear nothing and you just see letters. You just see words? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, oh, God. I was like, I'm so glad I'm neurospicy because we have neurotypical sounds, oh, sounds horrible. Sounds like the worst.

Or like some people did that went all over TikTok. Some people don't have an inner monologue. Which I'm like, who's keeping you company all day? I know. I'm like, what's happening in your brain though? I'm like, so you just walk in the store and you don't hear like, the list of things you need to get and then the conversation you were just having on the phone before you walked in the store and then like the high pitch sound of the fluorescent lights.

Listen, don't even get me started. I was just telling my mom recently. I said when I swam, because they were talking about this idea of like inner monologues. I said when I was swam, I used to scream in my head to see if my teammates could hear me. And she was and she was just like, what? I used to sit on the couch next to my mom and think thoughts and be like, can she hear them? Yeah, I would just be in the pool and I'd be like, I wonder if everybody can hear me screaming in my hands. And she was like, so you would. scream underwater and I was like, no, I would scream in my mind. And she was like, what are you saying? I was like, you scream in your brain. And she was just like, truly she was looking at me.

You can tell she is, oh, every day. It's like, wow, 36 years later. And I still don't understand this thing that I bought onto her. What is this? Your relationship with your mom is so cool. That's my home. I know. And that's who, that's the. I don't listen. I always tell parents who say, like, how do I get my kid to love reading? I'm like, let them catch you reading because I always caught my mom reading. So, like, if anybody out there is like, how the hell do you read so much or whatever?

Or how do I get passionate reading? Like, that is my favorite topic. So I would tell anybody if they have, like, questions about how to read more or any of that or read fat. I'm like, slide my DMs. Slide my DMs about that any day. Because I will talk, you know this. You unfortunately made the mistake of sliding in my DMs about books. and now here we are.

Yeah. I know. Before you had, I was like freaking out. And my husband was like, she didn't have to say yes. And like you said you guys have talked a little bit, right? I'm like, I mean, kind of. Maybe she was just being nice. No, not me.

Listen, you've heard me for a year and a half. I don't have pretending to be nice in my bones. Neither do I. I'm with you on that one. And on the screaming, on the screaming portion, I also saw a TikTok, I don't know, sometime in the last few months that was talking about like, you can get the same release of a scream by doing it in your head. So like sometimes if I am just dealing with a shitty client, I'm like just scream in my head.

Just scream in your head. And it works. I completely understood when that Japanese company told their employees during COVID lockdowns, just scream inside your heart. And I went, you know what? I can do that. And I've been doing it. And I'm glad to know we're on the same level.

Right. Yeah, totally. Well, I'm so excited we got to talk. Likewise. I'm going to have to read multiple of these. My arcs are a little out of control for September, but maybe it'll be a winter read for me. Listen, you guys in the bookstagram and book talk trenches are the real ones because y'all are like racing through books so that you can bring reviews to weirdos like me that are like, is it worth reading? So yeah, thank you for your service. to all of us literary nerds. Oh, I love it, though. I can't believe that I, like, get free books. Like, that's still, like, a lot of people that we know when, if Tyler tells them about my podcast, they're like, so, like, how much is she making from it?

Like, what? You're, like, making. I want books. And he's like, she just loves doing it. But, like, none of them can comprehend doing something you enjoy because they're always, like, money's the only motivator, which money's a motivator, but. Yes. For them, it's all about money. And so I told them to start telling people, I'm like, just start telling them.

I get free books. Like, I looked at my neck galley and I've gotten 200 books from that galley in the last, like, three years. There we go. I'm like, that's like two grand. You can tell my money to spend. Money is money is coming in one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I love it. I'm just always reading. Do you, how you typically read a book a week too, though, right? Yeah. It's like, it's usually like one to like two. a lot of times. Yeah. If I'm really pushing it, it's like three. Like I'll have like the nonfiction, I know, the nonfiction read, the fiction that I'm reading

at night before bed. And then I haven't done it in a while, but I used to have this insane challenge where I would make myself read a book in the day on Sunday. Oh, one of my co-hosts is like that. Yeah. It was just like truly, and a lot of times it's reserved specifically for like incredibly popular books that I want the space and time and ability to be like, I hate this. I read it in a day. Yes. You can't tell me it's good. I read we were liars in a day. No pauses, no stop, straight through,

hated every second of it. That's one that I've brought up. I do like it. I'm one of the random view. You know what the problem is? I figured out the twist within like the first five pages. And I think now I would have. I read it like years ago. There you go. Now that I read thrillers, I'm like, I immediately picked it up and went, they're all day, right? And then it's going. And then at the end, I went, I was right. Yeah, I was right. I know.

And sometimes it ruins the book. And then sometimes you're okay with it because you're like, the journey there was worth it. But if you guess the twist on that one, the journey is probably not worth it. Same thing with silent patient. I've now, ever since that book, I've taken to just writing in the margins what I think the twist is. Because people never believe me when I'm like, no, no, I figured it out on like page 20. And they're like, no, you didn't. I'm like, yeah.

No, I did. They clearly telegraphed it. I've been doing that too. If I think I got to and I just like highlight the sentence and like put a little note. And then I'm like, I'll be right back. This might be where it's headed. Exactly. Yeah.

Well, I'm so glad we got to talk. Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. Listen, I love it because I'm also bad at an ending podcast. So thanks everybody for listening to us. be weird on a podcast together. Yeah, and you can find links to follow McKenzie

in the show notes. So that'll be there for everyone.