Bookwild - You're Never Too Old to Start Writing with Karen E. Osborne

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

This week, I talk with Karen E. Osborne about how she published her first book at 69, and continued publishing more! We dive into the grit and grace that permeate all of her stories, and her desire to see survivors of trauma as thrivers and not just the "bad guys" of a story.Follow Karen's podcast on YouTube hereAnd check out her website here Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I wanted people to see survivors. I'm a thriver. I'm no longer a survivor. I'm a thriver. But I wanted people to see victims and survivors, not as they're portrayed in the movies where that's the reason they became a murderer. Or that's the reason they did something horrible. Because most of us are out there just trying to get well.

Most of us are out there just trying to survive. So I didn't want to write books about the trial. but I included the trauma in the past of various characters so that people could see that how damaging it is, but also how hopeful it is that you can get well and you can live a life and you're not murdering anybody. This week I got to talk with Karen E. Osborne, who is the author of multiple suspense novels. She also has a really cool story when it comes to her author journey. So after a 45-year career, she decided she wanted to write a book,

and she ended up publishing her first novel at the age of 69. She loves sharing with everyone how you're never too old to try something, and you're never to fill in the blank whatever your brain is telling you. Like, you can't do it if you go ahead and try. try. So she was so much fun to talk with. She's published multiple books now, and her novels address a really wide range of societal and ethical topics, including strong women facing and overcoming adversity with grit and grace, racism, misogyny, social justice, foster care, and adoption, and also healing from post-traumatic stress disorder and sexual assault.

She includes themes like forgiveness, redemption, and hope in all of her stories as well. And I mean, how do you fit all of that into just a few books? But somehow she figured out how to. She's also the host of the What Are You Writing and What Are You Reading Podcast where she also talks with authors about what they're reading and also about what they're writing. So make sure you go check out that podcast too. That being said, let's hear from Karen. You have a really interesting story where you were first published at 69, I believe. So I always

ask people like when they knew they wanted to be an author. Did you know before then or did you like get the desire to do it later? No, I always, this was my, this was my dream from a little girl. Yeah. Even when I graduated at 16 at high school, if you look in my high school yearbook, It says ambition, writer. Nice. But, you know, one of the reasons that I talk about, two is such a bad word, T-O-O, you know, you're too old, you're too young. And the other, it's evil twin, is not enough. And those things.

So, yes, I was busy. I got married. I had children. I had a big career. but my writing self was all caught up in two and not enough until one day I just thought, what the heck? Yeah. I've wanted to do this.

Like maybe I should try it out. Yeah. Maybe I should try it out. And these characters, these two women, Kara and Alex, just would talk to me and talk to me and talk to me in my head. You know, I'd be on an airplane going, because. I was on the road every week for my job and I would, you know, be on the airplane and they're talking, talking, talking, I'm driving. I have to pull over because distracted driving. They're

talking, talking. So it was a combination of sort of getting over your two anything and you're not enough, but also these women demanded a, you will write this book. Yes. Yeah. I think it's so magical when like authors uh like the characters or the stories just like bugging not bugging them but like nudging them over and over again that like it just it just seems so cool that that that can happen that it's like they can they're just appearing there for you it's true and they also make decisions for you you know you've sort of got in your head kind of where we're going yeah and No, no, that's not where we're going. We're going over here. They're very bossy. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I've talked to some authors who kind of in that same realm are like,

I don't want to, I don't need to know what's going to happen when I sit down to write. I like surprising myself, just like the readers are hopefully surprised with some stuff. How did your writing process developed? Do you do any planning ahead of time, or is it kind of like the characters are coming to you with this story? So it's really organic. I don't even know the newest book that's coming out in March, March 13th, which is a murder mystery, justice for Emerson. And so my friends were reading, my readers, you know, I had a group of readers who helped me, writer friends. And so they'd send back the pages and they'd say, I don't know who, you know, like, who is the murderer, Karen? I said, I don't know.

And it was true. I know the murderer will reveal himself. Yeah. I know it's a man and I know it's one of these four and they'll or maybe maybe there's somebody else, you know, it was, I really didn't know who the murderer was until like three quarters of the way in. Yeah. And then I had to actually go back and fix some things.

Yeah. You know, once the murderer revealed themselves. So yes, I let my characters guide me. I mean, I have a sense of plot. Yeah. And I'm following the story arc and all of that. But they're full of surprises. That is so cool.

So do you do any work like getting to know the characters before you start writing? Because it sounds like they kind of come to you first. So do you kind of get to know them and then start the plot part? or how does that work for you? So that's such a great question, Kate, because it is a combination. The characters come to me, but I do have to figure out,

I have to take time and think through who they really are. I have to go back and look at what happened to them at birth. You know, what kind of mom or dad raised them or auntie or grandma or grandpa, you know, what trauma might have happened, what talent, do they have? What are their bad side?

You know, what are the things that one of my characters in Reckonings, Roxy, she would get me annoyed. I mean, I'm writing and writing and thinking, you are getting so annoying. Like, I want to shake her. Stop making the same mistakes over and over again. Right. You really have to, you have to know,

because I try to write very complex and real characters. One of my favorite experiences at a book club was these, it was a group of women who had read, read one of my novels. They were talking about my first one actually getting it right. And instead of talking to me, asking me questions like you're asking, they were arguing about the women. Like, why would she do that? Well, because, because don't, didn't you see what happened to her? I know, but she shouldn't, you know, and I just said like, oh, my, this is like girlfriend's arguing over, right?

You know, and then said, you know, you've really written very real characters. Yeah, totally. You kind of touched on probably the way that they're complex or the way that they're maybe making decisions is related to their past or their traumas and something that you write about, you write about lots of heavy topics like that and in your different books. So you cover like Me Too type topics, racism, misogyny, social issues, even like adoption and PTSD as well and sexual assault. What draws you to writing about characters with those traumas? Yeah.

So the first one, and probably three of my. novels were all because of the trauma that happened to me. You know, we write what we know. And so I wasn't writing anything that was autobiographical, but I wanted people to see survivors. Like, I'm a thriver. I'm no longer a survivor. I'm a thriver.

But I wanted people to see victims and survivors not as, as they're portrayed in the movies where that's the reason they became a murderer. Or that's the reason they did something horrible. Because most of us are out there just trying to get well. Most of us are out there just trying to survive. So I didn't want to write books about the trauma. But I included the trauma in the past of various characters so that people could see that how damaging it is, but also how hopeful it is that you can get well and you can

live a life and you're not murdering anybody. Now, I did write, I did write two murder mysteries, but I made sure my murderers weren't really because of trauma. They were just people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really, I love that perspective because I think we do get so used to like seeing the trauma.

as like a, not an excuse or an, but an explanation for the evil character or the antagonist, however that plays out, whether they're a murder or not. I never thought of it that way, because I also do connect with main characters when they've had stuff happen to them in the past as well. But it's like, you're saying, like, there's a much larger group of us who is, like, trying to live, as you're saying, thriving lives than, like, people who let the trauma, like, eat away at themselves and turn them into like angry evil people. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And thank, you know, I dedicated my first book to my husband, but also to my therapist. And I said,

thank you for helping me save my life. Oh, yes. Right? Because you have to save your own life. You do. But having, having therapy, having spiritual connection, having community, having community, all of that. Yes. All that helps, yeah. And I think part of that, you know, as we started the conversation about two and not enough, I think that comes out of however you were raised. Yes.

You know, my husband was raised by an amazing, amazing family and his parents. And they told him just the opposite. Yeah. So when the school counselor told him back in the 60s that, you know, you weren't good enough to go to college. He just didn't believe them. Right. I would have believed them.

Right. You know, because I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not. But Bob, you know, his mother told him he could do anything. And go do it. And let me, let me, you know, applaud. So when this guidance counselor said, you're not got college material, my husband,

who has a master's degree in an incredible career, he just said, like, I won't talk. with you any more about it. I'll go find somebody else to talk about it so that I could find my way. So I think that lots of times what holds us back, it's often how somebody saw us. And too often, it's parents and, you know, people that. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I like a couple of things that you said there. I did a lot of therapy, like seven years of therapy in my 20s. for similar things. Like I was not being told you can do anything. That was not the message I was getting.

But one of the things that happens in therapy is like at first, obviously, you're kind of angry at the people who have placed you in this situation. And you have to get there where you're mad that that's what happened. But then, like you're talking about, the next step is realizing, well, the rest, everything from here on out is up to you now. And it's scary sometimes at first because you want to just be like, oh, it's their fault. But if you can just shift your mindset enough to be like, oh, that means I can be in chart. Like, I can heal myself. I don't need them to change to heal myself.

Like, I can overcome like the bad coping mechanisms I've gotten and all of that. It can feel overwhelming, but then it's really empowering to know that like I, like you were saying, I get to save my life. I get to decide what's going to happen next. And it's so empowering to be able to get past something like that yourself. It really is. And the other part of that, that journey that you just described is, which I think is the hardest part in a way. And that's forgiving them, not absolving them.

Right. Right. Because forgiveness is not about you weren't wrong or it is, I'm not going to carry this anger any longer. Yeah. I can't. I can't. So I have to forgive you so that I can be free.

Yes. Yeah. And that's a hard one. I remember the first time my therapist said to me, she said, you know, you couldn't need to find a way to forgive them. And I said, no. If they were alive now, I would mow them down. I would do something horrible to them.

And but but but as you said as you get over that anger that I'm in charge of my life, I'm not going to keep blaming them. There's also that second piece. I'm going to I'm going to forgive them. Yeah. Yep. Very hard. It is very hard.

It's not easy. And I would almost because I, I, I, I, uh, dealt with or deal with. It doesn't go away. Complex PTSD. And so that part of what I had to learn in. therapy with that too was that it also wouldn't completely go away. It would kind of be there in my life, but I would like learn how to maybe not freak out as much when it comes up or just have different tools to be like, oh, this overwhelming feeling doesn't have to overtake me. It'll pass, like all of that. And I think

some of that is the same with anger. Like sometimes like there are still moments where, especially if I see someone else going through a similar situation that I did, where sometimes I feel the anger a little bit then, but it's not something where like I'm waking up every day still thinking about it, because in some ways, it can be something that keeps you connected to them instead of like releasing it. Yeah. I think that's a great, great point. And it never goes away. You know, it's like, you know, it's like you lost an arm or you lost a leg, but you've learned how to live a full, rich life without that arm, but the arm is still missing. Yeah.

You know, it's still not there. And it's just that it's a smaller part of our life, like you said, and it doesn't dominate. When I was writing true grace. Yes. I love that cover, by the way. Isn't that beautiful? It is beautiful. It was actually inspired by my grandmother.

Oh, wow. And the trauma that she, went through and her children, and her father was her youngest child. And she didn't have therapy. This was 1924. And she didn't have the benefit of, you know, she was an immigrant woman. She was a mixed race woman in Harlem in 1924 with five children. And a devastating thing happened.

And she had to somehow find her way. with grit and with grace. Yeah. And but without the tools that you and I have, you know, without the education, without the therapy, without any of those things she had to figure out a way. And the forgiveness piece, the reason I bring it up is because in real life, her children never forgave her. Oh, wow.

You know, they sort of, because, because, all of them were going through the trauma together. Yes. And she was fighting and fighting and trying to, you know, use the tools she had, whatever, just the things that she had to keep her family together and for everybody to survive and for everybody to make it. And so I did end it on a happy note.

But in real life, in real life, you know, her children, I know my father, he never, ever forgave. her. Yeah. But she, even with that, she found a way to be in everybody's life. And, you know, I loved her as a grandma and, you know, um, so you still got, you still got to know her. I still got to know her. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. So that one was a little bit more historical fiction, um, or not a little bit more. It just was historical fiction. Was, uh, her story, what drew you to writing historical. fiction or was there something else that made you want to go that route?

So I hate research. So I was never going to write historical fiction ever. Yes. I like making stuff up. And so you can't do that with historical fiction. You must know if aluminum didn't exist, then there can't be an aluminum shopping cart. But I always wanted to write some part of her story. She was an extraordinary woman.

And I had so much good source material. So these books here are all books that were written about her father. So I have five biographies that were written about her dad. And then I had 300 pages, copies of handwritten letters that she had written. Wow. And then I had all the conversations I had. with her. So where so it made it made it me convince myself that the that the research wouldn't be so daunting because I had great source material right at my fingertips. But of course then when you

start going, you know, there's just getting all the details and but it was fun. I you know, really I loved writing loved writing it and changed my mind. It's not true that I don't like research. because you just discover the coolest, coolest things. Right. Yeah. So I'm not a research for two years and then start writing kind of person. But I rode and researched and wrote and researched and the story was taking me places. And then I thought, oh, what would that be like, though?

What did it look like? Oh, let me go look. Yeah. That is cool. That is what I would think would be daunting about writing historical fiction is like, Also, like, even how, like, the vernacular would be different. Like, all of, or like, the smells. Like, everything would be so different compared to anything we've experienced at our lives.

So it does seem more daunting, but that's cool that you had those resources for it. You know what's interesting, too, Kate, is that the book is set in 1924 and we're in 2024. Oh, yeah. And some of the issues are still. You know, the book is historical, but it is all still so relevant, unfortunately. Unfortunately, yeah. Unfortunately to today. And you can see where the changes have been made.

You can see where the, you know, what progress. It's not like we haven't made any progress at all. Right. But, and you can see that progress. But also, my goodness, here we are. Here we are still dealing with some of the same, same issues. So that was, I found that really interesting, the 100 year, the 100 year difference. The other thing that most historical fiction books take place over many, many years.

Oh, yeah. And all of my novels take place like two weeks, two weeks in March, two weeks in May, two weeks in, you know, page Turner. And I didn't want to totally give up my own style. Yeah. So I made the book take place over about six months instead of years. And I did short page turning chapters. And there was always, you know, lots of action and lots of things going on.

So it's a little different than your normal historical fiction. Yeah. So your take on it. I like that. Yeah. You kind of talked about grit and grace earlier, which I think thematically, means a lot to you and multiple of your books. So what is it that draws you to kind of wanting to combine those two together?

Yeah. So, you know, just to take a step back, there's really no, it doesn't look, there's no apparent relationship between each book, right? There's murder mystery, there's family drama. But your example. exactly right. The common theme is strong women, flawed women, who have to rely on grit and grace. And some of them have more of it. So grace and true grace, she has a mantra. And she says to

herself every time something hits hard, she says, I am the daughter of explorers who fought the Congo River who built, you know, churches and schools along the river. I am the daughter of two powerfully strong, dedicated people. And so I can do this. I come from grit and grace. And that was just something she had to remind herself when she thought, I can't go on. I can't. I can't, what am I going to do?

And every time she sort of lost that in reckoning, This is Reckonings. And Roxy, Roxy didn't know she had grit and grace. Roxy just had a dream and she wanted to make things happen, but she's the one who used to annoy me. Because she would just keep making mistakes. But she grows. She grows over the course of the nine days of the book.

She comes to realize how much she does. does have. Yeah. Because another theme of my books are secrets and lies. Yeah. And, and Roxy is holding a secret which causes you to lie, lie by omission or lie by. And it, and she just kept justifying it. You know, like, I'm the victim here. So it's okay that I have secrets. It's okay that I lie because don't you understand what happened to me and it took her as it did me in my own life to realize that if you if you keep blaming the past for your behavior then why will anybody trust you to be different right yeah and you don't trust your your own ability to be different too yeah exactly right exactly right so

that grit and grace goes through all of the novels. My first murder mystery was Tangled Lies. I love that. I love that. This one is the lighting on that cover. Yeah, isn't that interesting? The protagonists, the two protagonists, one is a 70-year-old black woman. All my books are multicultural, racial.

And so the protagonist is a 70-year-old. year old black woman who comes home to find her adult son murdered and her the other protagonist is a 25 year old white woman, Danny, who's a hot mess and she through a series of events ends up working with Vera to solve to solve the murder. Yeah. And the growth of both women and what they were both seeking and didn't even know they were seeking. Yeah. You know, as they as they solved. So that one takes place two weeks in May and reckoning this two weeks in August.

And getting it right was two weeks in March. Nice. And then the new one that's coming out in March, March 13. So now that I kind of love historical fiction. I always liked reading it, I mean, as a writer. Yeah. So it's a dual timeline. So Aria, in two weeks in the spring, April of 2024,

she finds a murder victim in the not-for-profit that she runs in the basement. And the dual timeline is we meet Emerson, it's Justice for Emerson, and And so Emerson is murdered in the first pages of the book. You know, I'm not giving anything away. No spoilers here. That's the premise of the book. Emerson is murdered. But then from 1968, we meet Emerson.

So while they're going through all the dangers of trying to find the murderer and there's also a lovely romance in this story, as we're going through all of that, we're meeting Emerson from 1968 to who he, how he ended up in that basement killed. So that was a lot of fun because I had to research Vietnam and, you know, I lived through a lot of that. So again, I had real good source material. But my husband, we've been friends since 13 and 14 years old, so we lived through all of that. together. So he was good source material.

But I still had to do a lot of research. Because his memory was fuzzy. It was a long time ago. Yeah. That's cool, though. So you're kind of blending the like murder mystery and historical fiction with this next one. What do you enjoy about writing like thrillers or mysteries, like kind of both of those together? Yeah. So all my books. have suspense. All of them

are suspenseful because that's what I like to read. Yep. You know, when I think about, you know, when I look at my reading list and see, there's, everything is fast moving, lots of suspense. You know, that's what I enjoy. So I write what I, I write what I enjoy. But I also like to learn and get better. So I try

different things. So this is, so this dual timeline was a a new thing for me. But I just, I love mystery. I love suspense. I like, I like books that, you know, that move,

move, move, short chapters and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I've been kind of saying I'm a little bit of a pacing snob

because I just like things to move quickly. I can't help myself. That's me. Don't slow me down. Tell me enough. Let me see, smell here, but don't give me a page

description. Right? I get it. I know. And it's wonderful that some people like love purple prose. They love to read it. They love to write it. I'm just like, okay, okay.

So like what question can I be thinking about like what's going to happen? Like I think I've, I think I've got this setting down. But I mean, to each their own. I know people love to read it and they love to write it too. So that's that's cool too. So you've had a pretty almost like unconventional journey towards being an author. Do you have any advice for people who kind of like you're talking about are maybe struggling with the too old to unintelligent, like whatever that is telling them or not

enough? Do you have any advice for people who have thought about writing, but maybe. have head trash stopping them. Yeah, I actually wrote a blog post about this. You know, writers write. Writers, right. So if that is what you want to do, even if it's 15 minutes a day, my son is an author as well. But he's got family and he's got, you know, big job. He owns a company. He's traveling the country in the world, although a little less now, since Zoom is so wonderful. But he's so busy, but he committed to 15 minutes a day. And so he writes short stories.

And so he's in publications, at least three publications a year, just from that steady. So my first piece of advice is whatever time you have, I meet people and they say, oh, I've always meant to, or I'm planning on, or I've been thinking. thinking about writers write, find five minutes, find 15 minutes. Who can't find 15 minutes? That's a good. It's a really good point. Right?

And just get started. And then the other thing that's so important is work on your craft. I can't watch a movie without thinking about the story. You know, how did they do that? How does that writer do that? I can't watch a movie without looking at the actor's expressions and how they convey something just with an expression and can I capture that? Can I capture that in a in a story? You know, when somebody just has that look and you know exactly what they're thinking, you know what they're

feeling, is there a way for me to describe that with words? I hear a great word and I just keep a book, a little book in my purse and I think that is a cool. I don't know if I can say this out loud. I hope so I can say this, but I just heard this word, unfuck your life. I like that. I love that, Kate. And so I wrote it down. I said, I'm not sure where. I don't know who's going to say it.

I don't know, but I'm going to, and sure not, I found the perfect place in reckonings for the father to say that to his son. Your life. So I write down words, mostly nice words. I write down words that just grab me. And so the other thing is always be working on your craft. So writers write and writers. keep trying to get better.

And then the last thing is just recognize that rejection is part of. And could I share my rejection story? Yes, please. So book number two, book number one came out. I found an agent. It was all magical, wonderful. Now I write book number two, rejection, rejection. Rejection. So I was talking to my son and he said, mom, you can't like send out to, you know, to two people. You get rejected. You feel bad. You don't do anything for three months. He said, this is a commitment. You wrote a good book. It is really good. It's not for everybody. Every book isn't for everybody. So I set a goal of a hundred rejections. I wouldn't stop.

until I had 100 rejections. I love that. 78, number 78, it was the last reject, and then 79 was a yes. Wow. But listen to this part, Kate. So 79 was a yes. The book came out, Tangled Lies, came out a year later from the contract,

because it takes about a year for the publisher to catch up. And on that day, he reaches out and he says, do you have another one? Whoa. Yes. Yes, I do. Send it to me. I send it to him. He sends me a contract.

Wow. What that one comes out a year later, do you have another one? I said, oh, I only have like 30,000 words. You know, I'm not really, he said, send, send me a blurb. Tell me where you're going. Tell me what you're doing. He sent me a contract. So from 70,000.

rejections to do you have another book? Yes. So you can't let rejections. So writers write, work on your craft, and don't let rejection get in your way. And if you are thinking you're to this or you're not enough, you know, you've got to figure out how do I work, how do I work that out for myself? What am I going to do about that? Because those are two heavy pieces of luggage that just. drag you down.

They do. They really do. I love all of that advice. When you were talking about you're like thinking about it even when you're watching movies, I've been talking a little bit about how I try to go to the movies like in the middle of the day when no one's there so that I can sit in the back row and take notes because I just love taking notes on like how different stories

manage different things like you're saying and just like all the things that. people, all the themes that can be incorporated into stories and everything, too. So I'm with you on that. I love, I just love paying attention to story now even more. And it's just a lot of fun. And I'm working on a book myself. And to your point, like you do, sometimes, it's kind of like when you start to, I always think of it as like my inner child always wanted to write. but like the message was very much which isn't uncommon that like you're not going to make money that way like that's not a useful thing to go after be a lawyer all of all of that kind of messaging um

and kind of what you're saying like when you go to start it even if you think you've like moved past the head trash for me when I start doing something that challenges the programming of my past then like the critic voice gets even louder because it's like wait, wait, wait. And it gets like really loud. And it can become such a good exercise in like, at least for me, it can even be like, it doesn't matter if what I write is bad right now. It doesn't matter. Like just write. Like you, it really helps you challenge the voices that are like, well, what if you're bad at it? And it's like, well, I probably will be at the beginning anyway. So it's like just, why don't you just go ahead and do it? So I love what you're saying. You do

have to let go of whatever head trash is there so that you can even at least try it out. I love that expression head trash. I love that. Yeah, that's from by calling it that you're not giving it power. Yes. You know, I mean, it is trash. It is head trash. Let's get, I love that. That's a great expression. Yeah, it really helps to just it. There was a point in therapy, which this is a really really specific reference. But the third Spider-Man movie with Toby, is that Toby? Toby McGuire?

Yeah, yeah, it is Toby. I don't know why it sounded weird when I said it. The concept is like there's like that like black goo that overtakes him and turns him into like an evil Spider-Man basically. So there are all these scenes sometimes where like the stuff is like stretching out of him and the story definitely follows the lines of like, almost if we were looking at it really deeply, not letting your shadow self like overtake you in some ways. And so that was even a visual I started using for a while where I was, it helped me separate it,

kind of like you're saying, separate it from my identity or myself. So then when those thoughts were coming up, I was like, okay, this is just like that like black, which it turns up to be like the venom, the venom liquid basically. And it does help. It does help. It does help. give you that separation away from it. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Visualization is such a good tool, and it also makes us be better writers. Yeah, yeah, totally.

You can visualize something, then you can capture it, you know, in the paper. So what kind of book are you writing? I'm writing a thriller that takes place in like a reality TV show, setting essentially kind of I wanted to do like a family like the Kardashians in terms of the mass appeal but that they did it by appearing super approachable so they're kind of play acting this idea they're like oh we're just like you but like also they're like crazy rich but it it appealed to people in their like approachability or accessibility um and my

main character is a journalist who like five years ago when she was in college with um the daughter of the reality family that daughter killed her best friend and she knows that happened but she'd ever had proof and she knew that like she couldn't go up against the machine that is that family that was um and so she had to kind of learn to let go of it and like deal with it and accept it and all of that but then she gets assigned a piece on the family. And so she decides to take that opportunity to go do the work, but to also maybe sniff around a little bit and maybe get some proof. Oh, that sounds cool. That sounds like a great premise. Thank you. Yeah, it's been fun. Well, when you finish, come on my show and talk to me about it. I would love to. That was going to be

my next question too. I know why I started my podcast, but what led you to starting your podcast? So Tangled Lies, my murder mystery, Justice Bremerson is a second, but Tangled Lies came out when COVID hit. Yep. So there was no, there was no way for any of the writers in my life or me. Mm-hmm. So I thought, well, I'm pretty good at this. I'm pretty good at this. I'm pretty, pretty good at, you know, because I just what I did for a living. I talked, I taught and try, you know, I'm always happy to be up on a stage and, uh, and do that. I'm not very good at cocktail parties, but I'm great on the stage. And so I just said, I'll just start it. And I'll invite authors who are having the same struggle I am. So now I'm over 200 episodes.

We're almost four, it'll be four years old in, in March. And we'll We talk about not just like what we, you and I were just talking about. And then I also ask for book recommendations. Yeah. I love, you know, what are my writers reading? Yes. So every episode is about 20 minutes long and it's talking about their books and then talking about what they're reading.

Yeah. That we have such a similar timeline. I also started, I started right before. Like the first one I recorded was like the December. So that would have been December 2019. So like right before everything. Right before it. But I started noticing to that year where I was like, oh, I think in some ways it wasn't intentional at the time.

But I think I was able to get more access to people because everyone was getting more used to doing things online or on Zoom. And like you're saying, they couldn't do press tours in the same way. at all. And I missed, I, I just passed 200 episodes too. So we are just like, we are little podcast sisters or kind of twins a little bit. That's what I ended up doing too. I do author interviews. And then I also do episodes with like books to grammars, booktubers, where we just do book recommendations on that. So I love, I love hearing these like four. year old podcast that have popped up for sure. It's pretty cool. It is cool. It's good. My daughter-in-law is a podcaster and she interviews authors who are cooks, cookbooks, and decorating. Oh, that's cool.

Yeah, Susie Chase. And she, hers are really, so it's just that, just books, you know, just books about food. and house decorations and it's a really cool podcast. It's fun. Yeah, I'm going to have to link that. I'm sure we have and she's older than both of us, not in years, but in. The podcast. Yes. Okay. First I was like, wait. But she's, she's that older than I am. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, dinner party. Oh, I love that title. Dinner party. Susie Chase.

That is cool. Nice. Yeah. I'll definitely link that because I'm sure I have some people who would be interesting. Short, 15 minutes. Nice. Yeah. Very, very cool.

That's awesome. Well, on the note of book recommendations, I do always ask authors at the end if they've read anything recently that they love. So have you read anything recently? I just finished a book that was totally out of my, you know what I normally read. And it was called the wedding people. Oh, yeah.

I've been hearing a lot of good things. Oh, my goodness. It was it was so fun and, you know, I listen mostly to books. Yeah. Because I'm a multitasker. And so I'm, you know, doing things around the house. I'm taking a walk. I'm on my treadmill.

I've got a book in my ear. And I would all of a sudden just laugh out loud. you'd see the other people in the gym kind of, you know, just giving you a look. Yeah. But it was also poignant and, you know, it dealt with a lot of important issues. So that was a very good book. And then I love, love lessons in chemistry. That was so well done with a dog as a character.

Yeah. that was just so amazing how well she did that how well she she made that dog such an important part of the story and with a personality he even had trauma he had a backstory I haven't read it yet because I know that it's heavy at the beginning and I haven't been in the mood quite yet for it but that is fascinating oh it's really really it's and it the heaviness won't weigh you down. Okay. That's good to know.

It won't weigh you down. It's, it's, it's an empowering nice story about a woman in the 60s, you know, right. You know,

we just have to overcome so much. I know. So much. Anyway, that was a really fun one. But the wet, the, the wedding people also has, you know,

a trauma that it starts with, but it's nothing that weighs you down. You're moving along. You're moving along. You're laughing. You're wondering. where this is going. Yeah.

And then you think you know where it's going. And then she throws in a twist. Oh, that's cool. Oh, no. I thought this was over. It's not really a thriller, right? But it's not a thriller. But it has that cool.

It has that feel? Yeah. You just want to know. Yeah. It was very much out of my norm, but I loved it. Yeah. One of my friends who's on the podcast, her name is Steph, She kind of had similar feedback.

We're like she mostly reads thrillers, but she just absolutely adored that book. I'm like, clearly I need to pick this one up. Where can people follow you to stay up today with everything? So my website is the easiest. That's which is Karen E. Osborne, OSB-O-R-N-E. So I've got to get those E's in there. Karen E-O-S-B-Born.com. And I also have a Facebook author page, Karen E. Osborne author.

I'm on Instagram, Karen E. Osborne author. And I'm on LinkedIn and YouTube. I have YouTube channel. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So you can find me. But if you go to my website, you can get to every place else that I am.

Okay. Nice. So I'll link that website in the first. show notes so everyone can go follow wherever they prefer to follow. But thank you for coming on. I love the conversation we got to have. Oh, thank you, Kate. Thank you so much for inviting me.