Bookwild - Zoe B. Wallbrook's History Lessons: Dark Academia, Satirical Humor & Navigating Racial Tensions

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

This week, I talk with Zoe B. Wallbrook about her hilariously funny and suspenseful mystery novel History Lessons. We dive into her inspiration for the book, how she incorporated misogynoir and how she injected so much humor.History Lessons SynopsisA college history professor must solve her superstar colleague's murder before she becomes the next target in this funny, romantic debut mystery, perfect for readers of Janet Evanovich, Kellye Garrett, and Ali Hazelwood.As a newly minted junior professor, Daphne Ouverture spends her days giving lectures on French colonialism, working on her next academic book, and going on atrocious dates. Her small world suits her just fine. Until Sam Taylor dies.The rising star of Harrison University’s anthropology department was never one of Daphne’s favorites, despite his popularity. But that doesn’t prevent Sam’s killer from believing Daphne has something that belonged to Sam—something the killer will stop at nothing to get.Between grading papers and navigating her disastrous love life, Daphne embarks on her own investigation to find out what connects her to Sam’s murder. With the help of an alluring former-detective-turned-bookseller, she unravels a deadly cover-up on campus.This well-crafted, voice-driven mystery introduces an unforgettable crime fiction heroine. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Zoe B. Walbrook about her debut history lessons. It is so fun. It is a mixture of dark academia, mystery, humor. There's like what you would almost call a cozy element, but she and I actually talk about how this kind of middle ground for mysteries exists everywhere, but not always in the U.S. So there are things that happen. There's a murder to solve. There's some dark stuff happening, but there's a lot. of humor to it that's not even like dark humor. But this is what it's about. A college history professor must solve her superstar colleague's murder before she becomes the next target in this funny romantic debut mystery. As a newly minted junior professor, Daphne Uvichur,

spends her days giving lectures on French colonialism, working on her next academic book, and going on atrocious dates. Her small world suits her just fine, until Sam Taylor dies. The rising star of Harrison University's Anthropology Department was never one of Daphne's favorites, despite his popularity. But that doesn't prevent Sam's killer from believing Daphne has something that belonged to Sam. Something the killer will stop at nothing to get. Between grading papers and navigating her disastrous love life, Daphne embarks on her own investigation to find out what connects her to Sam's murder. With the help of an alluring former detective turned bookseller, she unravels a deadly cover-up on

campus. This one, like I said, so good, so fun. I love Daphne. She's bookish, a professor. She's just amazing. Her humor is going to be right up your alley. And I was very excited to learn that this is most likely being made into a series. So that being said, let's hear from Zoe. I am so excited to talk about history lessons. There's so much to talk about. But I want to to get to know a little bit about you first. So I know you're a professor, but what was your journey to writing? Like, when did you know you wanted to write something or when did you have an idea to write? So thanks for having me. It's really lovely to be here and hanging with you. It's been in time with everybody who will hopefully be listening to this in the future.

Yes. So, yeah, so I am a professor by day. and a mystery writer also by day because I love bedtime and bedtime is sacred to me. So I tend to not be able to write at night. I guess I started writing really late, I think. I was never one of these people who thought of herself as a writer. I love to read, which is I think also kind of necessary for my profession. Yes. Right.

So I first had an idea about, I think this was like February 2. 2018. And I remember writing a couple pages of something and then going to my sister and emailing them to her and saying, what do you think? And she wrote back and said, this is great. Keep going. And Kate, I swear to God, like a couple years later, I went back and saw those pages that I sent to my sister. They were terrible. I don't understand why she thought that they had promised or anything. Once I learned what I was doing as a writer, I was like, what are you talking? about. Yeah.

You know, but with her encouragement, I, um, you know, I started, I started just kind of exploring this idea for a mystery and then one thing went to another. I was about 50% of the way through and I was like, I have to keep going. I can't have math. Yeah. I just kind of decided to finish the damn thing. And then is, unfortunately, here we are many years later after many rounds of revision and actually how to write mysteries on other things.

Yeah. That's a fun journey though. Yeah, and if it helps for anybody out there, you know, I think that you don't have to somehow feel destined to have been arrived since age of five. That was never in my part, I guess I would say. I really, you know, looking back, so the one sign that I did realize looking back is that at nighttime, starting in high school to fall asleep, I would tell myself like elaborate stories. I fell asleep and bad. And I just thought everybody did that. And then one day my husband was like, no, what are you talking about? Yes. These characters. So there were probably something all along, but I never know the left thought of myself as a writer. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is good to talk about that. It's not everyone knows from the time that they're a kid, even though there are some that do.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think it seems like for most writers, everyone starts with a journal reading, right? that this is what all gets us here is that we just love books and we want to talk about it. Yeah, I agree. So it sounds like with this one, you may not have been like plotting and planning ahead. But do you plot out your stories? Do you just kind of write and see where it goes? Oof, oh, God. I think I'm sort of like, oh, no.

I think it's a mix of both. I know that there are definitely plotters. And there are definitely pantsers, those who play. fly by the seat of their pants. At this stage, I would say I'm a plancer. And I do a mix of plotting and flying by the seat of my pants. I think the first time I wrote around, I wrote the book, it was all just flying by the seat of my pants for the next.

And then later on, realizing that I needed to figure out how to make this a book that could be enjoyable to readers other than my sister. Right. And so that required thinking about structure. I think and chapters and scenes and things like that. And then now where I am, this is also helpful to everybody, is that I am,

I'm still doing a mix of plotting and pantsing. I can't, I'm not one of those people who can do intricate plots with lots of note cards and flashcards and every single point down. I do generally have a sense of where I'm going and how to get there, But I also, at least for me personally, I need some room for discovery, which can only happen when I'm squirving in front of my laptop. Yeah. For us to figure out who is this character in front of me. So for me, that's where the discovery comes from.

It's from the exterior of Blame page. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think surprisingly, I've had more people who are pancers or like you're saying, plancers. Like, I didn't expect that to be what's. more common, but I think it's been way more common than plotters, at least the authors I've talked to. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. I can see that because there has to be some magic. Right. I feel like there are a couple different books on writing. I feel like I talk about that.

Stephen King at one point has a thing about in his book on writing about finding the magic or the news or the whatever. I think Anne Lamont has something similar. I mean, there has to be some kind of moment where It's almost like to me deeply meditative or something in the zone and then discovering something that feels great to have uncovered. Yeah. That's really cool. So with this one, what was the initial inspiration for this fun genre mashup? Oh, that's so it. Well, so I guess problem number one is I didn't realize it was a genre mashup, I should say, for a lot of times.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not just ending what I was writing, I suppose. But the inspiration for this came from a couple of different places. One, I had been reading a couple of different mysteries. I've gotten back into reading mysteries after a long time of reading other genres. And really enjoyed, I think, the puzzle of it all. Yeah. The good mystery or a thriller.

And we can, of course, talk about genres. some genres within crime fiction as well. Right. I know that you had a lot of really excellent experts on your podcast. You could do a better job of it than I can, but nonetheless. And then so, oh, great. So I had a sense of, you know, wanting to write something funny. Yeah.

But that's still kind of tackle difficult topics within the world of like the puzzle of a mystery. Mm-hmm. And then I feel really that I'm blanking temporarily on the question of like if I knew I was writing this genre all along or. Or just what the inspiration was. Oh, I see. Sorry. The intention for this mystery came from, I guess, two different things. One, I really enjoyed meeting Ellie Griffith's mystery series set in the UK and she's a British author, the Ruth Galloway series, which featured in our.

geology professor solving mysteries. And that felt like the first time I read a realistic portrayal of an academic, a woman academic in particular. And that kind of allowed me to think that I could do this too. I could write my own history. I would also say I was really taken by a new wave of authors of color in genres of romance in crime fiction from Jasmine Guillory or Kelly Garrett, who, also made it possible for me to see that they could have a black woman heroin as the protagonist. Yeah. With agency. So those are maybe the meta kind of things.

And then maybe more personal inspiration, which I only now admitting out loud, is I just had a colleague who I will not name, who was just such an asshole. I'm sure. Yeah. to explore to kind of think about what does it mean to have somebody who can be on the one hand doing really kind of noble honorable deeds while on the other also just being a terrible person yes yeah it's it's mind-blowing isn't it that they could sometimes do that yes because every time

this guy yeah yeah yeah also unfortunately yeah yeah because you do start to wonder

if the other stuff's performative when they're willing to do some other things that will remain unnamed I lost my words there for a second I should say for writing

this is like you know when I end up writing is not this person you know at all but nonetheless there was something about this kind of projection of a kind of righteousness that got under my skin.

Yeah, some well-meaning white people stuff a little bit. Yeah. So there's so many interesting things. But one of the interesting things is Daphne is specializing in French colonialism, which is like something I had not, you know, spent much of my life thinking about. So I was learning a lot. I thought it was cool. It was unique. It was different. Is that, I don't know what you are a professor of, but was that something you were interested in already or what drew you to having her be that? So I think that French historians are just like the coolest people. I totally have a sort of

complex about it and I feel insecure in the presence of French historians. Oh, that's amazing. Wow. Cool. Even though, you know, she is, don't get me wrong, Daphie's great at the same time

that she also is just a regular person with it. Yeah. And everything else. But, no, I mean, so I am a professor. I am, you know, in the humanities and in history in particular. And, you know, I think there's a way that I've always been really fascinated

by historians who work on European imperialism. and these kinds of topics, how they have such an expansive lens, I think, on the world. And the French Empire, which I still know very little about in comparison to many other people, is just also one of these examples of just having touched so many different continents and so many parts of the globe that just don't think about. And there's a whole kind of francophone world that is so vibrant and exciting and cool, and then I'm also jealous of, and I think maybe you just want to go out on time and get to know better for myself. Yeah.

Yeah. That is kind of the fun thing about, I mean, about reading too, but I'm sure it's the same with writing. Like, you can kind of explore stuff that you're just interested in. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've learned so much about, for example, Ivorian cuisine, the food of Ivory Coast in particular, hunting down recipes, trying to cook things, trying to find Westerns and new cities to visit when I'm traveling. And there's so much about, I think, this kind of investigative work of writing a novel that can just be so full of joy.

Yeah. Yeah, I have a friend, Hallie Sutton, who actually, she was the first one who told me about your book. Like, back when he was on NetGalley. And she may have even said it about your book, but sometimes when she loves books, she says, like, it's fun when you can tell that the writer was having fun with it. So I feel like it's kind of like that vibe. Like, you're going to kind of end up with something fun. writers having fun. Yeah, I definitely think that's true. And that definitely was, in my case, like my approach to writing history lessons was, you know, that, that yes, it tackles all kinds of

topics in terms of misogy noir, you know, and what it's like to be in New Catholic. My mother thing was a black woman professor. But at the same time, I mean, I think what, you know, what I wanted to make sure happen with Dockley and with the people in her life that she loves, It's like, yes, we can see how they have to experience these different kinds of things that they don't define them. Yes. Problems of racism and misogyny don't define, definitely. And that if we think about these characters only through that particular lens, we miss the joy. Yes.

And the silliness, I think, of people, how people can also just be so silly. Yes. And so, right. And so for me, just capturing the silliness of Daphne and her parents and her friends. as well as academia, which generates silly people at an alarming rate. I think it was just kind of delightful to at the morning. I just diggle at my laptop every day. I'm sure.

Yeah. So you mentioned massage noir, and I think that's something that not everyone, we're not talking about it everywhere, basically is where I'm headed with that. And so there are multiple moments where Daphne is kind of like pointing out, like she was too young, too female, too black to be a professor. or like it feels like everyone looks at her like, are you lost? Like, why are you here?

Yes. So can you kind of talk about kind of what that is and then like the impact that it does have for black women? So I think at most academic institutions, I think the rate right now for getting tenure, the rate or the percentage of black women who are tenure professors across academia is about 2%. Right? So the majority of students, yes. So the majority of students who are contact, who are taking courses with professors, are not taking courses with professors that look like Daphne.

And so there's a way in which the number being as low as it is, right, that Daphne and other Black women academics are constantly in a space where people assume that they don't belong, right, and then they're lost. And so there are all kinds of ways for, you know, black women academics. women in academia, of course, in other professions who are constantly kind of forced to prove themselves in a way that can be exhausting. And so I kind of wanted to show that with Dachne as well, that she's very used to these kinds of conversations and finds it annoying. But at the same time, she's not letting it stop from enjoying her life and living her life and selling his crime.

Yeah. That's what it was making me think about a few, like a month or so ago, I listened to Junie by Aaron Crosby-Extine. And it is so good. I loved the narration, too, for anyone who loves audiobooks, but it is about Junie, who's an enslaved girl in 1860, I think. But one of the things that I loved is she's literate and loves stories. So like both of both of your books are also kind of a love letter to stories and books is kind of where that was coming from for me. But I loved it because it's like I even feel like I make sense of my life through stories. So I love that as a plot point. But then in her, I don't think these are any spoilers.

In her author's note, she talks about that same idea where she wanted to make her literate so that she could still have like a complete life. Like it is not just about in her case the negative experience of living as an enslaved person. She wanted her to get to like live this really, really big life too. And yeah, I just, I really enjoyed both of those. And I feel like it is, it is important to like also have the happy parts where we can have them. Yeah. And I think what you're pointing to, which I'm really grateful for and thankful for Kate, is it kind of like complexity or multifacetedness. Yeah.

that I think is what makes fiction so powerful. As somebody who writes both nonfiction and fiction, if it work differently, they do different things, don't get me wrong, and both are necessary. But there is a way that in fiction, we can kind of get out of complexity, emotional complexity, psychological complexity, you know, lived experience in ways that are really beautiful. and I think occasionally transformative for readers.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like, books are the main way. There are some TV shows or movies where you get their inner thoughts. But books are that. I think that's kind of what you're talking about too. It's the only medium where we're like in the person's mind for like such a long period of time.

I love that about it. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's why sometimes, at least, me, I mean, I think it can be sometimes a little bit of a shock or an adjustment when a book

goes to the screen. However much I love it, I'm not like kind of shitting on it or anything like that. But then it's like, because you're just so used to being in a character's head and then it's and then you're watching the move and you're like, what are you thinking? Yes. I agree. I think that's where like you with its like inner narration and like Dexter's and other end, two serial killers, not sure why.

but those are always fun you do get their interior world for better or for worse yeah I don't yeah I'm sure there are others but those are the first two that came to mind oh you're good but speaking of bookish people and loving greeting the other thing I really enjoyed was it did like that your book felt like a love letter to kind of bookish people too like i loved that i almost said zoe i loved that daffney just wanted to like go home to her cozy uh house kind of in the woods and just read like she's like i don't need to do things but the other thing that i thought was cool um and i had a couple of them written down some of your like metaphors um just the i don't know what the next one would be but metaphors and other like

figures of speech i loved when she was thinking about a student and she was like she was just checked out as a bestseller library book. Like that cracked me up. But then like I also thought there was one point where you like faster than AI could write a sonnet about Trader Joe's. And I'm like these are just all these like really funny. I liked that even like the figures of speech were also geared towards bookish people. Was that something you were like wanting to do intentionally? Or is it also just kind of like what came out of you because you love it so much yourself?

I do love it. I love it. I love celebrating nerds. And what is this podcast and other things, if not like a celebration of the nerd? Yes. Right. So, hooray. So nerds are the best. Yeah. So I wanted that in terms of from the perspective of like me as a writer and thinking about my craft, one thing that I've learned over the years that I really admire what authors. do is when they make their world so kind of fully fleshed out that

internal references are still referencing things in that world itself. I don't know if I've been making sense in this way, but in other words that their thoughts, the actions, the jokes are reflective

of the world in which they live. I think it makes the story more unique, precise and somehow also fully developed. Yeah. So, yeah, so I tried to make it when possible so that you wouldn't necessarily step out of Daphne's world or thinking and that instead, you know, it would make sense for her to make an academic joke as an academic, you know, in different ways.

And book jokes as somebody who loves books, you know, I think just went in tandem with that. Yeah. I hadn't ever thought about it the way you just explained it, but it is kind of like world building. The phrases you choose are kind of world building, even though we kind of think of that in the terms of sci-fi and fantasy, but you can do it in any genre that you want to. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's necessary, right?

Yeah. And that world building can, of course, mean the setting and the details and, you know, what did that chair look like or what color green was the grass? Oh, my God. right like those kinds of things yeah but there's also a way that you can use dialogue and internal dialogue and internal thought to also you know keep coming back to that world and the people in it yes yeah on the um like kind of the misogyny front like those parts that are definitely a part of it um i loved there's a part i think it's when she's talking with her friends which her friends are

amazing. I want to be friends with her friends. Me too. Yeah. But she brings up the quote about like we've become the men we wanted to marry. But you kind of added on, but men still keep getting married too. Can you kind of talk about what you wanted to show with those, even like the gender imbalances? Right. I mean, I think the data bears that out still. Yeah. Right. That there's a way in which for, and I should say this is all, like, within the context of heteronormative couples, et cetera.

Like, I do want a major at risk, I think, next to it. But within the context of heteronormative relationship, there's a way in which, as women move up in, you know, in terms of socioeconomic mobility or other things, they're trying to find partners, I think, that kind of match that, whereas men are, with. way more comfortable, maybe the one way to take it all of it with mirroring beyond that. So this line that Gloria Steinem has, if we have become the men we wish to marry, I initially loved that line. I still love that line in some ways because it is talking about the wonderful outcomes and

achievements of certainly second-wing feminism in terms of liberating women to pursue careers that they wanted, that they're no longer dependent on a man, that they then can be I'm not going to marry. But nonetheless, the thing that's kind of become interesting that's sociological data is that to a certain extent finding then partners to match your intellectual level becomes more difficult for higher up again. Yeah.

It just does, unfortunately. So we kind of talked about the genre. It's not a total genre mashup, But it was like everyone who tries even to describe the book, they all kind of said the same thing where they're like, there's a mystery going on. And like there is dark stuff happening. And it's kind of like a cozy mystery, but it's not a cozy mystery either. And they're like, and there's this little bit of romance as well. And then there's suspense. And then there's dark academia. So there's so many things together. And tonally it's so fun. Like the voice is so fun. And I'm not saying the plot is bad. I've always said sometimes like a voice can carry me through a whole book because it's just fun to be in that person's head. Was that just kind of like how you write?

Did you want to have all of those elements going into it? One of the things I learned along the way that you're right, that one of the things that has made this book successful, but also maybe in its early inception, difficult to figure. is that it kind of falls between genres to what you're pointing out. So I have a mentor, a wonderful term named Elizabeth Little, who wrote Dear Daughter and Pretty is a picture, and she has another book coming out in March. But she calls me a tweener that I'm between genres, right? That I'm not writing traditional cozy in the sense of like American cozy mysteries. but I'm not writing some sort of dark noir thriller,

psychological thriller either. You know, I think in some ways what my book resembles is a lot of what I have read to a certain extent, which were, I think this is maybe more common with British mysteries, that British mysteries can have, I think, more of a mix. I think there's a way in which there are, you know, a kind of, it's not lightweight, it's not heavy weight, you can still have a middleweight kind of.

mystery, right? And so... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say I blatantly start with that from somebody pointed out in that Galli comment. It was very hopeful, actually. Oh, that's good. It's not lightweight.

It's not heavy weight. You know, and so I think that within British crime fiction, there is still more of a tradition. It doesn't have to be exactly cozy. It doesn't also have to be a, noir. It can be a traditional, a traditional mystery. The body is a puzzle. You're trying to solve it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that kind of helps. That helped me realize, I think, what I was writing, which was in some ways traditional, but with a lot of humor. Yeah. And hopefully, you know, heart to it as well. Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes the genre conversation is always interesting because, like, I've heard some writers say, like, I didn't know what genre I was writing. I just started writing. And that makes sense, too. And then I've also, yeah, I've, I've heard other authors to say like other people have to tell me what the genre is after I write it. And I understand its usefulness because it's how it's how we all find the books that are like right for us.

Like obviously there are some things that don't work for every reader. So I understand it helps. But on the flip side, like kind of what I really enjoyed reading history lessons is it does make it feel unique. and fresh and not like every like domestic suspense that is like kind of a similar plot is what I'm trying to say not that those aren't good but I do feel like it made it fresh I have to say I'm very grateful that I ended up with a publishing house in an other room that I did who you know sat me down at the beginning because I was pretty I think insecure at the beginning as well I think getting my books sold and being like nobody right beginning and being like nobody's going to want it right and that kind

thing. You know, and I was so grateful for my publishing house Soho and for my editor, Alexa, who sat me down and really said clearly, they said this is not, you know, this kind of between genres thing for you. It is not a bug. It is a feature, right? And we're going to push it that way. That this is actually what makes it good. Yes. Is that it's not fitting into a particular kind of box. Yeah. That there are plenty of people looking for, you know, something that's not fitting into the box and that this is you know the kind of book that we think that they're one you want yeah that's really cool um so with the there is a little bit of romance as well and it's it's a bookish man so i think we all were swooning um can you can you talk about

like he's a he's a former detective turned bookseller of earth seed. But yeah, can you can you talk about creating him? Yeah, but he has some different iterations. And that for me over time, I think I was, what did I want from him? I mean, he was always nerdy. I mean, from the very beginning that I never wrote anything about him. He was, you know, people were joking that he was Encyclopedia Brown or whatever. Yeah. I think I became really intrigued though, but by this idea that he, had stepped away from the police force that he kind of belated in it anymore because as an avid reader,

he had run a lot on the carceral state and other things and had decided that he didn't want to participate in that way anymore, but he still nonetheless was committed to a sense of justice or things like that. And then, you know, but I realized that him owning a bookstore just made sense. This is his number one love and passion is what's allowed him to explore the world. and allowed him to expand his horizon. And yeah, it turned out that is extremely attractive for all of people. We're like, well-read men.

Oh, my God, right? Like, having a well-red man apparently has the girlies, the she's days and the gays losing his minds. And being like, sign me up, I will take all of that. Yeah. Yeah. He was great. On the very opposite ends, but similar to how you're talking about the prison industrial complex, we have our murder victim who is like very vocal about wanting to change it.

But then like you said, there's also some like bad stuff that he was doing as well. And you mentioned how you kind of wanted to have that tension with your villain. did you always want that or did it the nuance kind of develop as you wrote him? No, and I'm curious to hear, like, I'd love to hear maybe like what you've, what you've gathered from other mystery writers and crime fiction writers in general. I feel like there are two approaches to the mystery itself, that there are some authors who start off with the dead body, right? The dead body is a puzzle. and as they're writing, they get to know who the killer is. And really, the killer doesn't even reveal themselves until the very end, I think, some writers.

And I am the exact opposite. So meaning that from the beginning, I always knew who was a killer. I always knew who was a victim. I always knew why. I always knew why this had happened. Now, that was going to drive the story. So, you know, so for me personally, and this is, for like other books that I wrote in the past and books that I'm writing right now.

I always have to know the victim and the killer before I can know anything else. But I mean, I'm curious if you don't mind me asking you, Kate, you know, based on the interviews that you've done with some of the authors and your own kind of experience, like what I would say it's about the same as like the plotting versus panting, like 60 to 70% say they don't know who it is. So Jamie Lynn Hendricks, for example, is someone who's been on here. She has like five thrillers. And she doesn't know anything when she starts writing.

She says she likes to surprise herself as she writes. I'm like, I just couldn't even get started that way. Holy moly. Yeah. And then I saw Megan Miranda two nights ago. She came to Indianapolis. And she was talking about that. Someone asked her that question.

And she was like, no. She was like, I like to feel suspicious of everyone in the story. So my character is suspicious. And I was like, I mean, you can argue with it if it works for, I guess. Honestly, that tracks queen. Yeah. Go to you. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I couldn't feel less like that would work for me. I'm like, how do the themes come in? And like, how do you do all of that? But everyone's brain, I guess it's just another good example of how everyone's brains work so differently. I value.

of that approach as well because it does make it so that the, you know, maybe the red hearings become, they feel like really great red hearings or whatever. It really is the case where anybody can do, could have done it. Yeah. I mean, I see that, but I guess at least for me, the be, well, okay, I would push back a little bit and maybe say with these authors, I do wonder if nonetheless, there is a premise that is driving the story. There's got to be something. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Like there is nonetheless some sort of like, you know, moral dilemma. Yeah. That they're that they are teasing out with their story, even if it means that they have multiple potential killers to work with. Right. They think in that way. So I'm guessing the foundation is nonetheless the scene across the board, but it is really

fascinating how different our methods are. Yeah, I know. That's what sometimes I still tell people. I started this podcast four years ago. But a couple of years, Dan, I remember telling my husband, I was like, one of my biggest takeaways is there's not one way to write a book. There's also not 10 ways to write a book. There are like thousands, probably hundreds of thousands ways to write a book.

So like you can just figure it out for yourself, I guess. Unfortunately, you got to do you. Yeah. And that's what at the end of the day people want, right? They want your brain, not somebody else's brain, but yours. Yeah, that's a really good point. We're zombies as a rea. Do you want to eat your brains?

Yes. I'm always going to think of that visual now. I don't know. That's great. It's great. It was also reminding me I read a book called The Book of Accidents. And the main character at one point is talking about how, like, for some people needing to relax means, like, not focusing on anything. but for her picking up a book is like making her brain shut up because she's going to live in

someone else's and I was like that is it that is it glorious that's gorgeous yeah so Chuck windig and you guys have some similar feelings on that um so her friends I cannot remember their names uh saydie at alice thank you I knew there was Sadie I could remember the other one I just loved them I loved the vibe I loved of that we got to like just hang out with the girls is kind of what it felt like. And I just, I love like female, strong female friendship portrayals. So was that important for you to include? Was it just kind of like, of course you would have friends or how'd you approach them? It was. And that, I agree, they're delightful. I think they offer a really nice counterbalance to

Daphne, who in a lot of ways, is the reasonable, cautious one, which is not Sadie, to put it mildly, you know, or even at least to a certain extent. You know, so I think that there was a way that I wanted to also celebrate, as you're saying, female friendships, women-collar friendships. They're all the daughters of immigrants and, like, kind of trauma bonded over like being denied sandwiches in their lunchbox as children. You know, and that maybe this is the other way that I think about maybe mystery writing or the amateur sleuth kind of genre in particular,

which is that, yes, we have the protagonist who has a lot of agency and is doing a lot of investigation in this world, but then it's the sort of community of people that end up anchoring them and revealing maybe things about the protagonist in a way that you can't see other lies. Yeah. Really becoming mirrors and boils and all of those kinds of things. Yeah, there's a way that like Sadie in particular is wild in a way that Dachy is not. Yeah.

And Elise is just loving and kind of almost innocent in a way that Daphne is far weary for or something like that. So it's a nice pairing. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The mirrors part you're talking about also reminded me so we do eventually meet Daphne's parents as well. And it does, to your point, that it teaches you or you learn more about the protagonist. I was like cracking up that like she's like a professor. She's got like she's got a job.

She's got a nice, mostly safe life. And they're just like, you're boring. It's kind of what I think about her life. Like, like, she could be into much worse stuff than, like, books than teaching. But yeah, how to, what made you decide to put her, she's kind of the outsider in her family. What made you decide to do that? In that way. You know, like, I had a conversation with my sister.

So I, you know, she was the first person to read what I wrote. And as I was writing the mystery years ago back in 2018, you know, she just asked me. day like, well, who are Daphne's parents? And I really had not thought about it at all. Yeah. And I was like, what do you mean to have these parents? And so, and realizing that, yeah, that she had this whole kind of other life and world before academia, you know, it's a globe-trodding life, yes, but it's somewhat, you know, I don't want to spoil it too much for anybody. But, you know, her parents have also had their own dynamic, exciting kind of, maybe.

occasionally dangerous careers, you could say. You know, and so, and it made her, to me, also kind of more understandable that she's chosen the life of, I think she at some point, Joe Hulisa is she's chosen the life of a hedgehog, right? Yes. In terms of just, like, living in a little cocoon and, you know, reading her books and writing, and it's all things that she can control, you know. And so it was really fun to show her parents as a way to also make her also more understandable of how she also grew up in all these different cultures in France and in West Africa, in New Orleans, in D.C.

Yeah, I think it also helped to make her more multidimensional. And also it was just really fun to write her parents who were just a hot. Fabio as a hot mess. We all know it. We're all terrified of her. Yes. You know, and then Jim's really sweet, you know, and really friendly. You could just talk to anybody.

You could talk to the cashier down, you know, at the grocery store. He can do anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. You do, you learn about her through them. But the other thing that interestingly kind of helps us learn about her is the fact that she's

being an amateur sleuth trying to solve something. So I loved there were little kind of touch points where she's like, I like staying invisible or like I have a note here that it's like she'd rather stay invisible. But she was realizing that like the rage and the mystery, like all of it was pulling her out of that too. So did you kind of know that you're going to use that? It's almost like it is her character arc almost is that she grows out of it a little bit. Yeah. I'm sure every author has a different response to this, you know, that I have to learn that. in terms of the craft of writing, that

you know, that there's a way in which each novel, ideally the protagonist has some sort of emotional element or transformation over the course of the book. And that it keeps slightly over the ears, but actually in a lot of ways, it still starts from a same place of her being in her kind of safe, comfortable world that she had deliberately made small in some ways out of fear, right? And that small world exploding, right? Yeah. And then, and then what is she going to do?

So, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the central messages in terms of her transformation that was in there pretty early on, I think, which has stayed in there, is a conversation she has with her father, Jim, where at one point she says to him, you know, she's about to do some investigative work and she's really kind of afraid. She doesn't know what the outcome is going to be. And so she says to him, you know, dad, I need to do the thing,

but I'm scared. And he says, scared of, like, what are you scared of? And she's like, I'm afraid of going to fail. And he looks at her and he's like,

you know, baby girl, like that has never been your problem. You are not afraid to fail. You're afraid to win. Right? And there's something about that like shift for her, Ben,

of like that kind of, you know, something clicking of like, not being afraid to win sometimes is one of the biggest lessons that we can take for ourselves, especially I have to say as women, right? That you can't be afraid to win. And you can't be afraid to push hard for that. Yeah.

I loved that message, the whole part of it. Her dad is so fun. I mean, her whole family is where her dad was really fun. So one thing I was one or two, when there's humor in books, do you ever in your drafts, like punch it up the way that so like comedians will like write material and then they'll go back and like try to make it even funnier so is any of that about like where can I fit some more humor in oh yeah every same time you know um and I also sometimes what do I do I sometimes try to read humorous writing I go back to who do I go back to I was weird on PG Woodhouse which really

shows he's a grandfather of British wit um I tend to I love David Sedaris me pretty one day. So the Irby, oh my God, I'm obsessed with everything she writes. So it also helps to go back to different writers of humor to see how they're making

their prose so funny. Like what is it that they're doing with their prose that like has us giggling or laughing. But no, it takes, I think it takes multiple rounds. And sometimes I'm like, it's still not hitting. It's still not hitting. The line about

AI writing, sonnet in the style of, you know, and no, to Trader Joe's. That, I think, came in one of the last final drafts. Oh, nice. Where I was like, finally, I think I've got something that could work here. Yeah. You just kind of keep going and keep going and keep going. Yeah.

Sounds like a lot of life is like that, unfortunately. Unfortunately, I do not like it. I do not approve of this. Yeah. Yeah. Where is my attorney? Where are our lawyers? Yes.

We would like to file completes. Yeah. Kind of on the other side, not that history is the other, is the opposite of humor. But on the other side, you did inject just multiple little mini history lessons, which felt very meta, given the title. Yeah. So how did you, did you know, like, which stories you wanted to include? Or was it kind of like, as you were writing, you're like, oh, this would be a good place to fit this history in? It's unfortunately full of random historical tidbits that could just fall out and tumble out of my mouth at a moment's notice.

And right, so I don't know if I was exactly intentional about what I chose, but I think what did become apparent, and really with the pushing of my editor, Alexa, at Soho, you know, she was the one who encouraged me to think about, well, what does it mean that you have a historian who can solve mystery? How is that different from, say, a police procedural? How is that different from a PI, a private investigator? How is that different from, you know, some other kind of position? What about being a historian lends itself well to the business of crime solving? And that was really fun to think about and to realize the shocking overlaps and parallels between the two. Yeah. I was about to ask about that too.

I thought it was so cool to like when she was talking about how like you have to kind of find the facts, but then you also have to contextualize them. And I thought that was like it was good because it feels like that's something, one, it does work for solving a murder really well. But two, it's something that we should all kind of like remember about all kinds of facts that we come around that like context matters. Correct. Correct. I mean, this is historians will shout. this from the rooftops, as well as I think other people to other professions. Yeah. Just like get invited into this conversation, I suppose. But, you know, but that nonetheless, yeah, the context matters.

Yes. And that what we're asking for is critical reading, critical engagement, that you look at a source, a primary source, a document of some kind and realize that it can be read in different ways, right? But not only that, I think it's like you can realize that it can be run in different ways, but then to think about, okay, but which interpretation probably makes the most sense and it's the most convincing based on the other material that we have. Yes. So I think this is a thing that oftentimes is missing for students or for other people.

If everyone's like, oh, well, history is all subjective, that means all of it is kind of meaningless. And it's like, no, you have to apply an intellectual rigor in the way that you do with, um, solving a crime, right? I guess you have facts, but how do you make sense of those facts? What is the most convincing and compelling argument that you can argue in front of the court? And it's honestly the same when writing a history. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I do love how it was when you were saying that, it was reminding me how many times I was like, oh, this is cool that you're explaining how being a history professor is basically helping her. She's like, I find out things about dead people all the time. dead people over the living at the beginning of the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I do think that's what historians do, is that so much of what we do in a weird way is chase down leads in the way that other, like, detectives do in a variety of settings. Yeah. You know, that we have all, I mean, historians have stories about fending months chasing down a picture. paper trail, right? And that leads them to some, you know, random town in, you know, the former

Ottoman Empire or something where there's like one archive that has this one letter, you know, that ends up being really important to understanding, you know, you know, thinking about gender and marriage or something in the early 20th century. Like, I mean, I think every historian kind of has that, well, we kind of brag about them too. It's a little, it's a little unfortunate maybe. But like, we brag about these kinds of stories of like having to like, spend time, you know, chasing down a lead. And there's a kind of dogged determination that it takes to do that. Yeah. You kind of have to be hyper-fixated on it, I would assume, as part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As well as I think that maybe the other company, the other way that we could think about

history is. There's a way in which you can be given a bunch of evidence. And none of it makes sense at the beginning. You're just steering at these pages being like, okay, what am I supposed to do with this? I don't know. You know, and you have to figure out how to make sense of what you think. Yeah. It's not always immediately apparent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You made a joke about different areas of study earlier, and it reminded me why do we throw shade at the anthropologists?

I loved it. I'm not questioning it. I was just like, this must be an inner academia thing. apologize to so many anthropologists I really have and be like I promise I love your discipline there's nothing wrong with being an anthropologist I promise

you know that anthropology is just so different sometimes from history and there are also of course anthropologists there are anthropologists who specialize history historians who specialize in anthropologists so I do want to like leave one report

for that as well you know the things thing that can be just so challenging for historians observing anthropologists, I guess you could say, is their kind of lack of interest sometimes in, like, paper, you know, that they're really committed to doing this kind of anthropographic people and talk to them in a way that historians find for it. You know, none of us want to talk to actual people. Like, that's not what we're trying. You know, and here they are doing the one thing that, like, has historians scurrying under the couch like a cockroach from the white hits it or something. Yeah.

You know, there are also oral histories. I mean, many caveats, et cetera. But, yeah, but they operate so, so differently. You feel wild spending time with their apologists. Yeah. Yeah, sociologists, where I'm like, I literally don't know what can you. I don't understand the word that you said. I love that you are working on the economy, sociology of the economy, something, something, or jail. I don't know. That's all I've got.

My favorite. That's all I've got. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That checks out.

The other thing you was writing me, too, you also make so many book references as well within the story. even with the bookstore is named after Parable of the Sower. It was just out of my head. Were there ones that you were like, I really want to work these in? Or was it just kind of like as you're writing,

it was just kind of like dropping references that you already kind of thought about? To work in, I don't know if I can think of one off the top of my head. You know, but then others, I think I was really trying to figure out what this person read or what would this person have read. You know, that Daphne, I should say, has read a lot of literature that I haven't. That she is so familiar with French literature, for example, in a way that I had to Google and look up, you know, all kinds of different francophone authors. Maris Condei and others ask my French friends. for recommendations and things like that.

I mean, to me, again, that's the joys of research was doing that. You know, so sometimes I had to kind of, you know, I think, crawl my way through to the outside. And then other times I was able to lean on books that I had read or that I was deeply familiar with that they told me about and that I thought would make sense for this character. Yeah. You know, I mean, in terms of for Rowan, the bookseller,

we'll hopefully get into it in another book, but that, you know, he inherited this bookshop from somebody who was a mentor to him who loved sci-fi fantasy and, you know, really thought of Octavia Butler as like maybe all end all. And then Rowan also then inherited this love of sci-fi fantasy in particular and Octavia Butler and all that stuff that comes with it. Yeah. Yeah, I loved all of the references in there together.

So obviously I loved it. I feel like everyone is aware of this at this point. So everybody needs to go listen or read and then DM me so we can talk about it. But at the end, I do always ask if you've read anything recently that you loved. Oh, man. Okay. Yes. And I should pull up my Kindle and other things to like to think about this.

Okay, so in terms of things I am looking forward to reading, which might not be the same thing. I know that you just had on Christina Dotson and her book, Love You to Adapt, so I really want to sit down with that book finally and read it. I have, I love Renee Swindle, who her book, Francine Spectacular Crash and Burn came out in April and really loved her prose and her quirkiness and her quirky characters. I've really been enjoying that book. I, when the chips are down and I am writing myself, I tend to actually read other genres. So I tend to go to fantasy, romance, other things as a way to distract me. And I think you said it's so well of like entering another headspace that's different. That allows me to not, you know, freak out and compare my book to other books.

Right. And because sometimes what happened, I will say I had to meltdown at one point. when I started reading, which I shouldn't have done, but I started reading Barbara Kingsolver's Demon Copperhead while revising, which I loved. But while reading it, I like texted my mentor and I was like, I'm never going to be as good as Barbara Kingselver. And she was like, put the book down right now, you know?

Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So I've learned that while drafting, I tend to have to read in other genres or other kinds of styles of writing that don't make me feel too awful about myself. So, yeah, so that's a common, like, reading fantasy is freeing because I'm not writing a fantasy book. Or maybe romance is freeing because I'm not writing a traditional romance or things like that. Yeah.

That's a really good point. I did have one other question. And you kind of mentioned it, is the intention for it to be a series? Yes, I am drafting book two now. That's so exciting. me and fingers crossed, my editor likes it. And this second book has a lot of cold cases in it. Cool cases involving 1940s France, I think.

1990s Milwaukee, I think. If that stays currently what it is, as well as really talking about the politics of racial passing is going to be pretty central to this story in particular. Oh, wow. Yeah. That as a subject is always so fascinating to me, especially in fiction. Like, it's really, it's probably because identity is interesting to me to talk about anyway. But yeah, that whole, or that whole topic is fascinating for fiction.

Yeah. So hence these cold cases where definitely realizing that some people are not who they said they were. No. I am so excited for that one. Your editor better like it. Tell her I said stuff. Thank you. Thank you. I'll tell her that right now. Yeah.

Kate said that's right. Well, I can't wait for that one. So you'll have to come back on when that one is, I know that takes forever. But we'll have to talk again. But Royce, thank you so much for talking with me about your first one. Thank you, Kate, so much for having me. This was so much fun. It was just such a blast.

Yes. I am so excited to talk about history.