Boonta Vista - EPISODE 185: Australia's Next Top Facebook Uncle (Feat. Cam Wilson)

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

Journalist and preeminent Craig Kelly researcher Cam Wilson joins us to talk about the history and influence of Australia's most notorious backbencher-cum-horse-medicine-for-humans-advocate. *** Support our show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Email the show at [e-mail]! Call in and leave us a question or a message on 1800-317-515 to be answered on the show! *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista Website: boontavista.com Merchandise: boontavista.com/merchandise Twitch: twitch.tv/boontavista

Welcome to Punty Vista, episode 185. I'm Andrew and I'm here in the Qantas Members Lounge that is inside Parliament House. Standing over near the buffet and stuffing as many shrimp as possible into his underpants, it's Ben. Hey Ben, I'm allergic to shellfish.'s bent. I'm allergic to shellfish. Oh, I'm also allergic to shellfish. Oh, well, our friendship gets deeper every day. I love that. Two boys, no prawns.

We've... I believe we've talked in the past about how Theo has to have an experience approximately once a year where he thinks, I wonder if I'm still allergic to shellfish, and the answer is, yes. Anyways, is it possible to experience anaphylactic shock but in your penis? Like a urethra just slowly closes up? Oh no. And it's up looking like that, uh, you know that picture of that Labrador that ate all the bees? No? Very sad. Yeah, they're got stunged stung stung stung stung stung. th. th. th. th. thuuuu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. that's that's that's that's that's that that that thu. thu. thu. thi. thia, to to to to too, too- tooan. tooan. tooan. tooan. tooan. tooan. tooan. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. toa. A. A. A. A. toa. A. to to to tha. A. A, they got stung so many times. Carefully monitoring Ben's penis for signs of

anaphylaxis. It's Theo. How are you, Theo? Good, I mean, I was monitoring it anyway, so it's simple. Nice to kill two birds with Bluntstein. What are you, what are you monitoring systems that you've got in place? So like a wiretap? You got one of those, uh, thermil cameras? One of those, one of those little those little those little thes thes th thes th th th th th th th th th those thermal cameras. No one of those one of those one of those little probes that you can hook up to a server and send like a little bit a little bit nerd talk here but send little SNMP that appears for penis events to me. I thought you were about to describe those like Bluetooth meat thermometers for barbecue. Really? Don't like where this is going. No, he's got what he's got one of those ones, you know in movies when like a SWAT team will

drill a hole through a ceiling and put the little little camera down that they can like snake around. Yeah one of those but Theo's holding one end of it goes just down the front of end. I've had I think I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi tho th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. Like th. Like th. Like th. Like th. Like th. Like, like th. Like, like th. Like, like th. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I theeeeeooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Like, th. Like, th. Like, those. But Theo's holding one end of it and the other one of it goes just down the front of end. I've had one of them. I think I might have spoken about this on the podcast before, but I have had a camera inserted up my urethrown before. Yeah, me too. Ben, this is incredible. What a day for us. So what were they what they probing your dickhole? Fucking. I got kicked so hard in the th. th in my testicles ruptured, but they didn't know that's what it was, so they had to just really jam a little camera up there to find out. Why do you get a camera jammed up your euthrop. I'm sure we've done this on pod before, but I, one day at work, I just couldn't pee. And so I couldn't pee for ages and they catheterized me and then afterwards they gave me the old

cytosopy, but they weren't sure whether the catheter or the scope actually pushed out whatever was that it like calcified on the inside. Ah, the quantum, you can't observe something without changing it. That's right. But wait. I hear a commotion. Forcing his way through security into the Quantus members lounge inside Parliament House with a cool fedora with a little press card and aside, it's journalist Cam Wilson.

Hello, Cam. Hey, how are you going? I've actually already grabbed some of those Quantas pajamas and I put them on just so I fit in. Speaking of fitting in, have you ever had your urethra close up? Uh, no, no I haven't. I haven't. But I enjoyed going with you on that. Something to look forward to then. At least one of you enjoyed it. I don't think it's like a definite thing that will happen in everyone everyone th to th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the th theat theat theat theat thu thu thu thu the the the the the the the the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the to to to to the to to to the to to to to the to to thea thea thi I don't think it's like a definite thing that will happen in everyone's life. It has it has not happened to me. One of life's surprises, maybe, we'll see. Something to look forward to. Yeah.

God truly works in mysterious ways. Oh boy. So um, Cam's with us today, we thought that we might have a little look into the the goings on, the happenings, the strange things that MP Craig Kelly has been getting up to. Because I believe that you're on, you're on the Craig Kelly beat. Would that be a fair way to describe it? Yeah, I'd say so. Not by choice really. By, like an uncomfortable compulsion. Uh, that I just, I just, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the going that, the going the going thi, By an uncomfortable compulsion, that I just can't stop looking at him. He's a really fascinating character, who I just have been paying attention to for probably about 18 months now. Because I was going to ask, how does one get assigned to the Craig Kelly beat? One doesn't get assigned, it's like, you, Craig Kelly finds you. He found me through his posts and since I started paying attention to him, you know, he's really, he's blossomed. And it kind of feels like being a fan of a band before they hit the mainstream, and then now there's a lot more attention on him. I'm kind of, you know, you know, thi's, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, the thi, you're, you're, you're, you know, you know, you know, you know, you're the the thi, you know, you thi, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th a band before they hit the mainstream. And then now there's a lot more attention on him and I'm kind of, you know, one of the OGs and saying,

hey, look, you know, I appreciate all the new fans, but I've been here the whole time. And yeah, what a wild ride it's been. But it is a very broad church, I feel as well. The Craig Killie fan club. Welcoming place. You know, there's meat, yeah exactly. There's anti-vaxes, the Q&Ons. There's people who just love watching meatheads operate.

Like you know, we accept them all. And he does have a real meathead thing going on, doesn't he? Incredible matehead vibes. In fact, I think that one of the, you know, criminally understudied parts of conspiracy theories is the meathead to conspiracy theory pathway. I think it's a really common one and Craig Kelly I think really typifies that. I've, I've been following some of the exploits of former UFC fighter Tito, um... Oh my god, what's his name?

A guy who used to fight in the UFC and he has now become like the mayor of Huntington Beach, basically on his wild conspiracy theory platform. And since becoming mayor he has just not turned up for it. Tito Ortiz, thank you. I drew a complete blank there. Mayor Pro Tem, Tito Ortiz, who is basically an all-timer in the Hall of Fame for Meatheads. He's one of those people where there's just this endless supply of him him butchering common phrases and turns of phrase and stuff like that.

And he's just now the mayor of Huntington Beach, California. And he did all of his stuff in his Make America Great Again hat, talking about how everything's a big conspiracy and COVID is fake and all that sort of stuff. And since he got elected he just like hasn't turned up for anything at all and all the rest of the council is complaining that they can't do any of their votes they can't actually get anything moving because Tito says oh yeah I'll be there for that conference call and then just ghosts them every time.

Real midhead Angie. And Craig himself said in his, I believe, his maiden speech to Parliament that as a former rugby player, he has perhaps put his head into one too many scrums. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. From the great man himself. Who could argue?

Who could argue? I was just going to say, on his private Facebook page, his personal Facebook page, he's listed a lot of his likes, and I guess this must have been, you know, probably like from 10 years ago when that used to be more of a thing. One of his favorite people is Martin Luter king. So look, you know, I think this is, we've, his kind of posting has recently brought him a lot of attention, but you know, I think Craig has always been playing the hits. Well, speaking of that, I thought maybe we could take a little

trip back through some of the classic Craig Kelly hits of the past. For example, so this is, I, I was not familiar with Craig Kelly's origins, like before even being in Parliament. And it's exactly what you would think of somebody who is out there demanding that like the, you know, Australian Medical Association and the Chief Health Officer all adjust their positions to suit his views. After finishing high school, Craig Kelly worked for his parents as a furniture salesman, an export manager at their furniture business, D.V. Kelly, P.T.Y. The firm imported Asian furniture and on-sold it to retailers such as Harvey Norman. But financial troubles, doing a lot of lifting there,

resulted in the Australian Taxation Office issuing wind-up orders in 2012, leaving creditors and employees owed over $4 million. Kelly denied he was a director of the bankrupt business, despite signing himself as director in a whole bunch of documents. Cool stuff, Craig. In April 2014, I think a lot of people like this one. Kelly spoke at an event commemorating the establishment of the independent state of Croatia, which was associated with fascist Italy and Nazi Germany during the Second World War. This is close. Have you never seen the photos of Craig Kelly giving a speech at a neo-Nazi event in front of a big crazy flag?

I have not. A Croatian language newspaper described Kelly's speech as a speech. I think thi thi, I think I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, I thi thi thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think think I think I think think I think think I think I think thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi at a neo-Nazi event in front of a big crazy flag? I have not. A Croatian language newspaper described Kelly's speech as conveying congratulations from Prime Minister Tony Abbott. Kelly subsequently described the speech he gave as condemning fascism and communism and apologized for appearing to endorse the flag of the independent state of Croatia. Oh my God. For appearing to. Yeah. Yeah, it just looked bad. It was my...

It was just like if you take it out of context, if you take me standing in front of a big flag of the independent state of Croatia at an event put on by some weird neo-Nazis and endorsing them as some kind of endorsement. Of course it's going to look weird. Yeah, and... Tony Abbott was mad as hell, but that's just because he's racist against Croats, for totally inscrutable reasons. On the 18th of July, 2018, Kelly commented on Sky News in response to a Facebook post by the father of three children killed aboard flight MH 17 Quote if some of the things that Russia has gotten away with in the past has to be slightly looked over

Well, I'm sorry that's the price we have to pay to have good relations going forward Sorry about your kids bro. Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and slightly look over the murder of your three children. In September 2018, speaking at a liberal party function, Kelly stated that the Pacific Island of Tuvalu was growing, not sinking, as evidence in favor of his climate skepticism. In September 2019, at a monocist league dinner, he claimed that this increase was because Coral Islands float. Further complaining that this was not reported. Yeah. It's, oh, truly one of the greatest hits. He claimed that Coral Islands float further complaining that this was not reported on Australia's

public broadcast network, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I feel like we've just blasted straight past the meeting that he was at. Can I get that one more time, please? At the Monarchist League dinner. Yep. The Monarchist League dinner. Yes, he is a staunch constitutional monocist as well. I think that most very smart figures in Australian politics have been. It's on the up, I think. He's back to winning that one one one one one one one one one one one th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th think that our most very smart figures in Australian politics have been.

It's on the up, I think. He's back to winning horse. As he often does. In January 2020, he was heavily criticized through global media for an appearance on UK television, I had also memory hold this one, in which he denied climate change was a contributing factor to the 2019-2020 Australian bushfires. Kelly was further criticized for racism and misogyny after referring to meteorologist Laura Tobin as a quote ignorant Pommie weather girl who quote has no idea what she's talking about despite her university degree in physics and meteorology.

Tobin told Kelly quote you're not a climate skeptic you're a climate denier and host peers Morgan labeled Kelly a disgrace who should wake up. Nothing worse than being told to wake up. Imagine being like told you're a piece of shit by Piers Morgan. The like biggest piece of shit of life. Yep. I'm looking down on you from my spot in the gutter. I'm here the nastiest turn in the toilet and even the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I I I'm th. I'm kind kind kind kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm kind kind kind kind kind kind kind. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm kind kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm kind. I'm. I'm. I'm. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm kind of. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. th. the the the thi. the the the the the thi. I'm kind. I'm looking down on you from my spot in the gutter. Yep, I'm here at the nastiest turn in the toilet and even I'm kind of better than you. I think you stink. Emergency Management Minister David Little Proud, Treasurer Josh Freidenberg and Prime Minister Scott Morrison distances themselves from Kelly's comments and his fellow conservative in New South Wales energy and environment minister Matt Keen said that

quote Craig Kelly is as qualified to talk about atmospheric physics as he is to perform brain surgery. During this bushfire season Kelly also implied that environmentalists were responsible for arson. Classic line. Classic line. So he's got some form for not being very good at facts, I think we could describe it as. Yeah. It's never really bothered him, right? No. He's a bit of like, you know how there's people in movies, there's that guy who, you don't

know their name, but they're an actor who often pops up. He's been like that guy of Australian politics in the kind of just this crazy just ridiculous shit that's always happening and you like, you know, once you put it together you're like, this guy's a legit nut job who's just been like, and the thing is it's not like he's writing by on his other, like his other achievements. This is what he does, this is his main claim to fame. And he's been in, you know, this is his 11th year as a federal politician. Yeah, that was kind of what got me about reading back through his past and going, what does this guy have going for him?

And the answer was, in his former life as a private citizen, he worked at his parents' furniture shop. Like, no offense to anybody out there sell them furniture or anything like that. But it's a very strange background to come from to then convince yourself that you have just amassed more knowledge about climate change and pandemics and, you know, international relations and all that sort of stuff just just the that true that true self-confidence of the truly incompetent kind of going on totally I was listening to his he's he did a podcast with with

and you know one of Australia's leading conspiracy theorists Pete Evans friend of the show yeah friend of the show yeah friend of the show the show and he was talking through his his origin the the tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. th. tr. tr. tr. true. And th. And true. And true true true. And true true true true th. And true true th. And true th. And th. And th. th. true the the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the true the the true true the the the the the the the theists Pete Evans. Friend of the show, Pete Evans. Yeah, friend of the show. And he was talking through his origin story into politics. And he was saying, oh, you know, before I got involved, I was kind of involved in the local chamber of commerce. And I mean, his real passion was lower taxes for companies that's his calling. And he just tells us- Making the world a better place.

Yeah, exactly. And he tells his story about how he goes to see the local MP. And he just makes his case saying, you know, we need lower taxes. And she like closes the door and says, I want you to run in my seat. I'm standing down. Can you take over for me me the th th th th th th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. ththe door and says I want you to run in my seat I'm standing down can you take over for me like that's all it took and then and then he's just like and then like you know apparently she'd asked heaps of people and everyone had said no but you know I took it and the rest is history and that's apparently all you have to do.

These are the awesome entry requirements of the Liberal Party, I guess. You have to be willing to stand in a room and say, I think taxes should be lower and they all go, by George, he's got it. This guy, he's got a real ingenue, this 46-year-old, 46-year-old weirdo barging into my office. You know you were saying that he's kind, he's, he, he, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, he's kind, the, the, the, that, that, that, that, that, the, the, the, that, that, that, that, that, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiolole, thioli, thiolioli, thi, thioli, thi, thi, thi, thi, th 46 year old, 46 year old weirdo barging into my office. You know what you were saying that he's kind of like the character from a movie that you've seen pop up? I feel like Craig Kelly sees himself as the character in all those movies like, you know,

like 2012 and Independence Day and stuff like that where there's somebody who has this information and no one else will listen to it. And they're trying to get into the right room with the president with all their jumbled up papers saying you've got to listen to me and everybody goes. Yeah, yeah, and everyone's like, shut up, you idiot. And Craig has to just take it back to his Facebook once more. They won't listen to me. They won't let me drink the bleach.

So I guess let's give people a bit of context who aren't aware of Craig and his business. What is the primary issue that Craig is causing throughout the COVID-19 pandemic? So Craig's, his driving force is his passion for these disproven or unproven COVID treatments which are either like anti-malarials or horse dewormer. He sees these as the real solution to all of this COVID nonsense. You know, he constantly says lockdowns aren't necessary. He says that wearing masks is wrong. In fact, it's child abuse to force children to wear them. He even, I think at times, has kind of alluded to being an anti-Vaxa.

He hasn't explicitly said I'm against it, but he's been very, very skeptical and kind of used that rhetoric. But all this time, he's just like, he's really spent the better part of 2020 just posting maniac yet, mostly through all hours of the night, you know, weird links to fringe publications or interviews with French doctors that he like translated himself through Google Translate, all making the case for drugs that really don't help at all. Now in in fairness, we also read articles that we have put through Google Translate on this show but we're not usually pressing for changes to public policy as a result of the articles that we're reading out. That's the next step

for you guys I think. Yeah ban the Dutch from coming into this country. That's got some of the positions we're going to be taken. I yeah it's um so part of the reason I guess that it's problematic is because he seems to have a pretty outsized influence on Facebook right. Yeah he's he's he's massive on Facebook. That's really the reason why I started paying attention to him and and and why I've kind of been you know on him rather than you know there are plenty of other members in the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. It's th. It's th. It's um. It's um. It's um. th. th. It's um. It's, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, th. thi's, th. thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, um, th. paying attention to him and why I've kind of been, you know, on him rather than, you know, there are plenty of other members in the coalition party room, you know, the government's party room who I think also have similarly ridiculous kind of like ideas that they found through Facebook. He is really, really massive on Facebook.

He, you know, depending on which way you slice the data, when you look at it, is either the top politician or sometimes he's just behind Scott Morrison and Dan Andrews who are both obviously very big. And his, like, his reach, you know, the amount of engagement he gets, where he gets, like, you know, he's had literally millions of shares over the last month are just all him just sharing like time and time again these kind of like you know like not well known like publications and and making the case you know accusing Dan Andrews of of workplace manslaughter for not letting them use this like you're anti-malarial to treat COVID.

You know, he just, he's posts so much and it's all about, you know, essentially trying to promote this drug, but you know, really what he's doing is undermining all the other, you know, developments and vaccines and public health measures out there, and it's been incredibly successful. Like, you know, like I said before, his posts have been shared literally millions of times. You know when I looked at it over the last six months his posts had been shared I think like two and a half times more than Scott Morris and Dan Andrews, Australia's medical regulator, the therapeutic goods administration, Australia's Department of Health, two and a half times more than all of them put together in the last six months. You know, during a pandemic, whenever I'm supposed to be paying attention to, you know, actual

science. It might be a controversial stance, but I don't think that's good. It seems bad to me. Look, hey, I'm a journalist, I can't take sides in this, but I... I'll leave that one to you. Let's hear both sides of the horse, horse drug argument. Yeah, it's um, I guess, so that stuff is kind of interesting because I know that you've also spoken about, like you've also written pieces about how the cranks on Sky News, which are generally pretty roudly dismissed in like sort of through the Australian media landscape.

So you people like, you know, Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt and Browand Dean, Craig Kelly has done a whole bunch of appearances on the Australian version of Sky News and specifically what's known locally as Sky News After Dark, which is basically after they have their normal news on through the day and then in the evenings they get into just weird right-wing crank opinion hour. It's probably the closest thing we have to a localized version of you know the sort of the fox news we'dos like shorn hannity and that sort of stuff and i think that that stuff gets very very dismissed in australia

by people as you know just uh... that's really silly and they've got a tiny audience when it comes to broadcast and subscribers and all that kind of thing. But I saw a piece that you had written a little while ago about the sort of second life that that content has on the internet, that that gets shared and disseminated, particularly in other countries, way, way more widely than it ever gets sort of watched in its original format on television here. Yeah, exactly.

So Sky News Australia is owned by News Corp and it is a, you know, it's ostensibly a television station. It goes through Foxtel which is our cable news here and it's now also on free to air in some regional areas. But you know it's audience on those in terms of normal television numbers is nothing. You know, very, very few people watch it in comparison to, you know, your normal nightly news. But it is having this, it's finding a really massive audience online, over the last now, I think, 18 months, since, you know, for whatever reason there was a bit of a change in the company

they really started focusing on this digital production and now you know they're they're in terms of their reach I'd say they're probably they're up there with any of the other Australian ones and they're just about to overtake the ABC as Australia's most subscribed to YouTube channel of television station. So, you know, we're really seeing it gain this massive audience online and and that is the same thing with Craig Kelly as well, you know, he has this massive audience and, you know, I very much doubt that they're all, you know, the most of the people probably are even from Australia. They are international as well, but you know, that's the way that all information works now. It's not like it used to be where you'd read your local paper and then sit down and watch probably the state broadcast of a television news

bulletin. You're getting your stuff from everywhere and and that means that you're also able to find, you know, even what might be a small proportion of the population in your area. So, you know, say th, you're th, you're th, you're th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thr-a, throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the. the, the, th find, you know, even what might be a small proportion of the population in your area. So, you know, say there's, you know, only a couple of, you know, 10,000 people who really want to use horse dewormer or whatever in Australia. But, you know, if you look at the rest of the world, the population, there might be, you know, there might be many, you know, there might be a million people. Thear. So the their their their might be their might be more. So, their might be more. So, their might be more. So, their might be more. So, their might be more. their might be more. their might be more. their might their might their might their might their, their, their. their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their. their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their. their. their, their. their, t. t. t. t. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. goes both ways. These people are able to find a global audience, but also, you know, their ideas are influenced by other global information sources. Like, you know, Craig Kelly, you know, he finds all these, you know, weird like, Brazilian publications,

or like whatever that he uses to justify this like crank science. But, you know, like, I still haven't quite got to the bottom of where he finds the stuff. My assumption is he's a massive Facebook user, so I'm sure he's just trawling through his feeds or whatever and just finds us in weird Facebook groups. But, you know, that kind of stuff, you know, he wouldn't be, I think promoting this in the same way. If he also wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't wasn't th plugged th plugged thuged th plugged thuged th plugged th plugged to thuged thuged thrughe also wasn't th these, you know, kind of anti-locked-down, probably like anti-Vaxley communities that can provide this information. So, you know, he really sums up, and same with Sky News about how we're all existing

in this international kind of poisoned ecosystem where this information is swilling round. I guess another fairly recent development with Sky News is that I mean it's a thing that you know some Australian journalists have talked about for a long time is that basically the Australian media landscape is where you know careers that have already been killed in bigger media markets come to like live out their retirement basically. Yeah, total, like we have like Lauren Southern who was essentially like the leading, you know, one of the leading figures of the old right in like 2016 to 2018. If you don't know who she is, she, you know, she promoted, you know, racist conspiracy theories. She's was outright anti-Islamophobic. She's, to total. total, to to to to total, to to total, to total, total, to total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, to, total, to, to, to, to, to, total, total. Reti, to, to, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, to, to, to, total, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, total, total, total, total, total, she, you know, she promoted, you know, racist conspiracy theories.

She was outright anti-Islamophobic. She even like legitimately was on like a boat that tried to intercept a boat of refugees and to stop them because she has really embodied this kind of pretty, like, not even covert anymore, like almost just outright white supremacy. So she was doing those documentaries about like the white genocide in South Africa myths. Totally, totally. She's been all over it and she, kind of, like in 20, I thinkthink 2018 she paced out and just kind of disappeared from from that kind of world for a bit and then about a year later she posted a video that said hey I'm I'm out like I'm not really doing this

anymore and actually two days before she'd applied for a visa to Australia she got it to see a partner here and then she just got given this like, you know, she's a regular commentator on Sky News Australia. You know, this person who literally, you know, put up a video saying that this, you know, promoting this white supremacist theory that you know, whites are being bred out by, you know, non-white people and they're taking over. Like that kind of person, she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she she, she, she, she th. She th. She th. She th. She th. She's, she's, she's, she's th. She's th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. theeeee. thee. the. thi. thee. the. thi. thi. the. thi. th.white people and they're taking over. Like that kind of person, she never like, she never apologized, she never said, I divorced myself from these ideas. She just kind of like, I took a gap year. And then she was welcomed with open arms by a significant Australian television channel. Like, she, like, sorry, I get so fired up about this stuff.

But like, she wouldn't get a regular appearance on Fox News in the US.. the US, her the US, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, her, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, she thii, she thi, she thi, she thi, she thi, she never thi, she never thi, she never thi, she never thi, she never thi, she never thi, she thi, she thi, she thi, she never thi, she thi, she thi, she thi, she thi, she th. She th. She th. She's, she th. She's, she th. She's, she thi, she thi, she thi, she's thi, thi, thi. She's thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. She never thi, she, like, sorry I get so fired up about this stuff, but like, she wouldn't get a regular appearance on Fox News in the US. Her views have been too extreme. But here for whatever reason in Australia, we're just happy to take people like this and give him a gig and now she's on here all the time. Which, yeah, and that's what's so bizarre about it, is that these are people who basically, you know, like Miloianopolis, people who finally had enough reputational damage for, like, social media platforms to say, you can't have an account on here anymore,

for like payment processing services to say, we're not gonna let you operate through us, all that sort of thing, to a point where they have just finally said you know what this has been effective enough that I can't actually continue to spread this stuff anymore and Sky News is here to say oh that's fine you can have you can have a career with us we'll pay you for this stuff yeah we'll take you tak you I saw that Katie Hopkins has popped up on Sky News th. A Australia th. A Australia th. A A A A A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. I to th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. I'll th. That's. I'll. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's th. It's to. It's to. It's to. It's to. I'll to. I'm to. I'm teea. I'm tea. I'm the. I'm the. I'll the. I'll the. I'll th. I'm that Katie Hopkins has popped up on Sky News Australia now as well and she's another

person who basically had spent years just being an incredibly inflammatory hard right-wing you know political news presence in the UK for a really long time and it finally got to a point where people were just like no no this person is just virulently racist and as horrible takes about everything and finally got drummed out of a bunch of places and there she is popping up on Sky News Australia. Totally and not just Sky News Australia. Like I think it was just over a year ago, or maybe two years ago that it was it today or one of the breakfast shows, one of their hosts, might have been Carl Stefanovi, did the special on like Megan Markle and the Royal Family, and they just like got her on.

Like they got Katie Hopkins, there's someone who, you know, really doesn't have any qualifications other than being like a well-known racist. And well at that time was essentially like not on UK television that much anymore, but Australia was like, yeah, we'll take her on and put her on a major television channel. And you know, I think part of this is, is because Australians, we have this like, we have a cultural cringe for ourselves, but we also have this like reverse where we have this like reverence from for anyone who's overseas. So like you know when when Milo, Yonopoulos, who I can't remember at the time it was before after he got outed for defending essentially like you know people having sex with underage people.

But it certainly was after that it was revealed that he was working with Steve Bannon and and intentionally laundering white supremacist ideas. You know, people like, yeah, bring them on. We can't wait to have them on because they're just so excited by it. And I think in part because people, you know, a lot of people in Australian media are divorced from the realities of, you know, what it's like to be, you know, a person of color or someone from, you know, who is culturally or linguistically diverse in Australia, because our Australian media is so white.

Well, and I guess, you know, from that news court perspective as well, you've already have Andrew Bolt on there, and he's written, I mean, we spoke about it on the show when he published a piece that was effectively just, you know, in the country's most circulated newspaper, a whole full-page spread of him writing replacement theory stuff. And you know, he's also been convicted under 18C of racial discrimination and none of this will ever get them to drop him or anything like that because he just has too much of a readership but I guess you know I was I was sort of thinking of this in the context of what you had been saying about how Craig Kelly's views get disseminated to this very wide audience outside of sort of mainstream media and I think it's it's very easy for people to be dismissive of this idea that like,

oh, you know, Craig Kelly's a bit of a loon, he gets on something like Q&A if he can and everybody laughs at him, or he goes on, you know, he goes on this show in the UK, and everybody goes, oh, you're just some raving dipship. But to his audience, he's someone who is very large audience, he's someone who's out there fighting for this stuff and then you couple that with things like Sky News which he puts in a lot of appearances on and they in turn are having this huge second life for their content in the digital world outside of their actual pay TV subscribership.

And what I guess it turns into is people content in the digital world outside of their actual pay-tv. Subscribership. And what I guess it turns into is people who could not get an audience anymore in American and British markets for peddling all of their very extreme right-wing views are suddenly able to revive those careers in a way that continues to be distributed in those markets via YouTube and via Facebook and that sort of thing without having to be hired and paid for by anyone in those markets. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're doing it for them and funneling it back through to the same channels. And you know, like, Sky News is making money off it, they monetize their YouTube

channel. So, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're their monetize their YouTube channel, so you know they're profiting directly off this stuff. Yeah, it's like it kind of, it does boggle the mind a bit. I think the thing is, is, you know, there are people out there who still give credibility to people because of who they are or because of what they are. And by that I mean, like, like you know Craig Kelly is an MP so when you know you see an MP coming out and being like Oh like you know these experts in the government don't know what they're talking about Well like you know maybe if you're someone who knows who Craig Kelly is and you're like

He's a loon as you mentioned or if you've you know paid attention to the many people who've covered in him and said he doesn't know what he's talking about. But if you don't know, you're just like, oh, maybe there's something there. And there are plenty of people who are emboldened by that. And the same way the sky news, the fact that like, you know, they are happy to give a platform to people and not essentially do anything to ensure that what you're hearing is, you know, the truth or balanced, you're kind of, you know, you're putting out their pretty damaging ideas, giving them a platform, giving them legitimacy, and you know, it can really affect people, and you know, often like I'll be talking about, you know, Craig Kelly, you know, oh, it's bad that he's doing this and it is a bit divorced from what the consequences are. But the consequences are stuff like, you know,

hydroxychlorquin, this drug that he's like consistently promoted. Like, it's a legitimate drug that's used for things like, I think Lyme disease, I know it's used for treating malaria. There's a shortage or there has been a shortage in Australia because people are buying it and they're trying to use it and it doesn't help with COVID but they're making it harder for people who legitimately need to get it. When I used it freedom of information request to kind of get, I got Craig's emails between him and Australia's top medical experts, you know someone who's in who leads the TGA so the medical regulator and the other

person who's leading this task force that is Australia's top medical experts that's th th th th th th th th th th th th th to th th to to th to thi thi thi thi to thi thi to thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thly thly thly thly thly thly thly thly thly thly thly thly th we thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the the the the the the the theeee theeeeeeeeeee to to to to to to the the thi to th TGA, so the medical regulator, and the other person who's leading this task force that is Australia's top medical experts that's trying to figure out, hey, how do we deal with COVID. And he's in there advocating for it, you know, and they're politely refuting essentially everything that he says, being like, that's an illegit study or that's a misunderstanding or like whatever. But one other thing that got caught theircoccoccoc caught the thu caught thu caught tho got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got caught the the the the the thoooooooo the the their tho thoe. their the, tho-a-a-a-a-a-a' their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. And their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. teateate. te. te. te. te. te. te. today, te. te. the. the. the. th like whatever. But one other thing that got caught up in it was that I also got all these complaints, you know, there are people in the public who are saying I don't like that he's promoting stuff that isn't real because I see people I know believe it. Or even like people asking like I've seen Craig Kelly talking about this drug, should I take it? Is that that legit? And that's the area where you can have like potential harm. Even if he is, you know, criticized by Scott Morrison as he kind of has, you know, he's been given a bit of a slap now. And now, to be honest, even when he gets probably not returned to Parliament, because it looks like he's going to lose pre-selection,

you know, the damage in a way is already done. Yeah, it's 100% done. I mean, I think it's very hard to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to kind to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say that's very hard to say to say that's very hard that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the their. their. their. that's their. their. their. their. their their their the their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. their their. their. that's their. that's that's that I mean, I think it's very hard to kind of say that we're experiencing anything but a total kind of, I don't know, the tendrils of conspiracy have made it's made their way completely into society now to the point where, you know, it used to be this thing where, you know, there'd be one raving nutter on the street and everyone would laugh at them or what have you. But now it's part of society because nobody knows how to tell the real from the fake. You know, I was on a, I'm part of like a local Facebook group because there was a cat that was attacking my chickens and turns out had a bit of a reputation. And someone posted about where to where best to buy masks when we had the three-day lockdown in Brisbane, you know, a couple of weeks back and it just

devolved into this thing about, you know, masks being bullshit, coronavirus being bullshit, you know, so on and so forth. And these are people, you know, these are people in your area. My neighbor will hit me up about like, hey, you know, you're working in energy at the moment. What, you know, what about all the cancer that people are getting from transmission towers and that sort of thing? And you just go, well, that's bullshit. And again, this used to be something that was fringe and they're still fringe beliefs, but they're absolutely kind of just making, soaking their way through like, just, th, th, th, th, their, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,, their their their their their their their their their their, their, th, tho, tho, thoomom. So, their thoom. So, their thoom. So, their their their thoom. So, thoom, thoom, thoom, tho, tho, tho, th. So, th. So, th. So, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thooo Craig Kelly is a man of some legitimacy in his position, as many others, you know, Moon Unit, fucking Malcolm Roberts, is I think a reflection of that. Yeah, totally. And you know, these platforms as well, I should also say encourage this because, you know, when, when, like, I have no doubt

that Craig thinks that he has support for this because he posts, you know, this loony stuff and the many, many conspiracists store, anti-vaxes out there who support him and believe he's telling the truth or whatever, they give him feedback, you know, they like his posts, they like his posts, they share his posts, and that kind of feedback, you know, encourages people to kind of keep on going. Like, you know, there is a world in which Craig posts his stuff and no one engages with it, so he kind of moves on because he thinks it's not that important. You know, it's an unfortunate reality that platforms encourage often quite a motive, very strong, not very nuanced language. And I think we should also, you know, see in all of that,

that, you know, the systems which are working in, they're encouraging, I think, like, you know, rhetoric not to get too lofty about this, that is ultimately undermining trust in all these systems. And yeah, I think, you know, one of the big things about the internet has been that they've gotten rid of gatekeepers and so that means, you know, a lot of people have been able to produce content who've been traditionally excluded from areas. Like, you know, like this podcast is probably an example of that. Like, you know, you're able to broadcast and reach heaps and he's a hittiped he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's, and he's, and he's, and he's, and he's, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and they, and to, and to, and th. And, and th. And th. And th. And, and to, and to, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, yeah, and, yeah, yeah, and, yeah, and, and, yeah, and, and, and, yeah, and, and, and, and, yeah, and, yeah, yeah, and, yeah, yeah, and, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, th. And, th. And, they. And if anyone reasonable had they say, you would not be able to do this.

But, but yeah, like, I mean, but I mean, so that's been a great thing and it's allowed communities to grow. But it's not like, of course that's a good thing in some times, but it's not always a good things. It allows these conspiracy to grow, these communities to grow and also in a way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way the way way the way way way the way the way the way these communities to grow, and also in a way encourages this kind of thinking because, you know, I always think back, like, say back in the early 2000s or something, if you were like, and say, let's just say, we were just back then and we didn't have the internet as we have it now, but COVID was happening, and you went down to the local, and you're like, you know what, I've been thinking about trying out this like, hoarse worm, I reckon that's gonna have a, I reckon that's gonna help us out.

People would stare at you and be like, you're a weird, you're all weird, you're being weird, like, stop doing that. And that's actually like, in some cases, that can be a pretty useful thing. You know, like, would we all be better off if someone just sat Craig to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be better. to be to be to be better. to be better. to be better. to be a, to be better. that's. that's. that's. that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. th. th. th. th. that's, th. th. that's th. th. th. that's th th th th th th th th th that's that's that that's that that's that that's that's that's that's that's that's told him, don't do this at the start, and he didn't get sucked into this kind of like, you know, system that's encouraging it. But, you know, that's what we have now. And I think we're going to be seeing this have a massive effect on our politics and all kind of debates until these systems change.

In Craig Kelly's defense, he was, So, but like you're 100% right, like the thing, one of the most infuriating things I can see in the comments section of these things is anyone's entitled to their opinion. And I don't know where people came to this conclusion that everybody should be entitled to their opinion. Nobody should be entitled to a fucking opinion. Opinions are terrible. Like opinions are awful, awful things. And this is sort of what you know this Facebook group was getting into about the masks and that sort of thing and I said, well, why do you why do you believe that you are entitled to your opinion? You don't have, you don't hold any

domain expertise. You don't, you know, there's nothing in your opinion that is, you know, backed up by a foundation of knowledge. Why do people believe that they are entitled to an opinion, right? Though, we've, I think there's a lot of this American free speech kind of coming into it where, you know, just because you can something, doesn't mean you should. And honestly, we should just do away with opinions. Too many opinions. Opinions. We're canceinions. We're canceling opinions. Shutting down this show pushing the big red button. I think, so this sort of brings us to another issue in the Craig Kelly saga, which is what you're saying about, why has someone not sat him down earlier and

said, could you shut the fuck up about this for a minute, please? Because there's been the strange situation in the past where for the previous two pre-selections in Craig Kelly's seat, a prime minister has intervened to stop somebody else from standing for election in the same seat for the liberals. First it was Tony Abbott, who came in and said, hey, popular local person, I'm saying you're not allowed to run against Craig Kelly. Then that also happened under Malcolm Turnbull. Obviously, there are sort of opinions about why this might have happened because for various reasons like in Malcolm Turnbull's situation he always had the hatred of the right wing of his own party as a threat to him and not helping

Craig killing and a massive coward. In fact we often... Yep, we always become extremely mad on this show whenever we see any instance of Malcolm Turnbull saying, And you can thank me for same-sex marriage. Having, you know, basically been forced to do it by the population at large and insisting on doing it the worst way possible to give all the shidiest people in his own party as much airtime to hurt as many people as possible in the process. And I saw a comment from him in a piece about Craig Kelly that said, meanwhile, Mr. Turnbull, who helped save Mr. Kelly from losing preselection in 2016, said, quote, of course there should be an open preselection in Hughes. I supported one in 2019. Back in 2016, there was a collective view to not encourage Kent

Johns to challenge Craig Kelly, but that was a very low-key intervention. Oh, thank you sitting Prime Minister who moved in and told, apparently told the guy who was going to challenge that he would give him a job doing something else if he didn't run against Craig Kelly. Very low-key. Nothing more low-key than the Prime Minister asking not to do something. Every belief that Malcolm Turnbull has, there's an example of him just being like strong-armed to go against that belief and him doing so with like very little convincing. It was definitely one of the most, stop hitting yourself, why are you hitting yourself, prime ministerships in history? He is the most purple primistor in our country's history, I think.

So obviously there's the weird issue of the interventions from previous prime ministers to stop this weird unit with all the conspiracy theories and and you know like he said cam looking back through Australian political history all those times when people were like what's this extremely weird guy massively fucking up in public doing and it was Craig Kelly the whole time so yeah you kind of you wind up with this situation where they've been protecting him obviously due to some kind of internal transactional element. But what's resulted in the intervening time is that he's been able to amass this large following on social media.

He's able to constantly disseminate all this misinformation. And it's the type of misinformation and conspiracy theory stuff. Like, you know, he went on Pete Evans's podcast and said, big government is stopping doctors from prescribing the horse medicine to people. And it's like, what do you do for a job again? You are big government. You are in big government. And so even if he does wind up losing preselection before this

this election and doesn't get to run for his seat again, he will still exit that scenario having you know 80,000 plus Facebook followers who all reshare all of this content millions of times and he'll get to do it in the narrative of I was silenced for speaking the truth. I was censored by big government for standing up for you, the little people who want the horse medicine. Totally, totally, censored for truth. And I mean, the thing that, a lot of people have been paying to him,

attention to him now because of the COVID stuff. But he has been someone who has pushed like just, you know, false information, you know, fake news, whatever you want to call it, for a really, really long time. Before it was COVID, his favorite thing was to try and disprove climate change by like every day he'd post an article from like from Russia being like it's negative 40 degrees there because it's winter and then he'd be like so much for global warming more like global cooling like and he would be like oh this prediction made like 40 years ago like didn't come true whatever he like he has for his entire career

promoted these kinds of anti-science views from inside government. And you know, it's funny that, you know, Malcolm Turnbull, the supposedly like pro-science, what was he, agile and whatever prime minister he was, you know, he stepped in to save him as well and ultimately that was because, you know, they only had a one-seat majority in the house, if I recall correctly. So it was something, you know, as an act of political, you know, is is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, for, for, for, for, for, th------a, th--up, th-up, th-up, thi-up, thi-up, thi-up, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, the, the, thi. the, the, thi. the, the, the, the, the, the, they only had a one seat majority in the house, if I recall correctly. So it was something, you know, as an act of political, you know, is for themselves. That's why they couldn't afford to keep him, they couldn't, they had to keep him onside. But like, he has been doing this for a long time, and even if he stops posting about, their treatment, he'll just go back, and he'll just, th....... And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, th. And, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th, th, th, th, is, th, th, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, th. And, th. And, th. And just go back and he already has gone back to like promoting coal and stuff. You know, this guy clearly, you know, he loves to do his own research.

He clearly does not have an expertise in anything and he also already has, you know, already ideas about what he thinks about the world and tries to find evidence from these many sources that he engages with that proves his own beliefs and that's ultimately damaging. And I th already already already already already already already that that that that that that that th th th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi thi tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. thi th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, the, te. thau. thau. thau. thauu. thauu. thau. thau. thau. the his own beliefs and that's ultimately damaging. Like, you know, I joked before that I'm a journalist that don't have views and I do try and keep any personal political views that I have out of my public appearances. But you know, the idea of journalism as like a both sides, like, well, like, you know, if one person says climate change is happening, you know, that's all bullshit. What journalism should do is it should have some, it, it, it, i, i, i, i, i, i, i, i, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi. And, tho, tho, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th th th th thin. And, toge. And, th try. And, try. And, try. And, th. And, th. And, th. And,, you know, that's all bullshit. What journalism should do is it should have some values that you stand for because everyone has their own ideas

and biases. And one thing that I'm like unapologetically standing for is the idea that you know, you should be paying attention to the truth. And the fact is that, you know, these COVID treatments, they don't work, they really really don't work. You know, global climate change is happening and calling it out shouldn't be a political thing at all. It should just be like, this guy's just being a doofist. He's using his platform to promote ideas that are gonna ultimately hurt us all in some way or the other.

And, you know, just because he isn't necessarily a frontbencher doesn't mean he can't have a really, really big impact, to to believe what ideas that will ultimately often lead people to act in ways that aren't actually in their own best self-interest. And it is weird having that kind of cycle of, you know, a behavior that we have seen that I think a lot of people consider potentially harmful, which is people who now primarily use one social media platform as their window into the world online. I think that there would be a lot of people out there, myself included, who use a social media platform, have curated a list of, you know, groups,

individuals that they follow, news organizations that they get things from, and they create their own little channel of these are things that conform to my pre-existing point of view. And it's very weird to have people within government who have access to, to their today, to have access to my pre-existing point of view. And it's very weird to have people within government who have access to the research and reports of the actual bodies that our government has set up to kind of investigate these things. And they complete, not only do they not seek out any of that stuff. They're actively refuting it a lot of the

time, like Craig Kelly and the Bureau of Meteorology, that kind of thing. And instead, they're in this little world of their own making where it's just about finding things that match up with something that you already believe. But in this instance, we have one of those people who has ascended to a position in a sitting government and uses the same technique to find their information and then disseminates that to people on those same platforms using the same set of beliefs and then they also get the legitimacy of this is a government minister who's doing this. That is like a, oh yeah you go again. No, I was just gonna say, and like, you know, from these emails that I got with him going

back and forth with literally like the head of Australia's medical regulator and the head of the COVID medicines task force, you know, he's sending these like, you know, these diatribes with like, you know, dozens of links like, they look like, and I don't know if you ever get like deranged emails from your like parents, but that's what it looks like. And these people who are like, are literally in the middle of the pandemic, they are dealing like, you know, the date of the emails was in August, so when there were 400 daily cases of COVID every day, they're having to spend their time kind of trying to coddle this person who isn't paying attention. There are many ways of which someone who in this position of power, both in terms of people

paying attention to them, but literally because of the position that they have, can just make everything a whole lot worse for us. And you know, in the day, Craig Kelly doesn't have to have an opinion on COVID-treatment. He could just leave it to the expert. He's going out of his way to do this because he thinks he knows best and he's ignoring when people politely and reasonably explain why he's not. Because at the end of the day, this is about something clearly other than trying to get the best treatment. It's about trying to promote the ideas that he likes, trying to help actually like us deal with a pandemic.

And I think like you're dead on there cam and there's there's that old, who's saying or I can't know where it came from but that basically it takes much long to refute a lie than to you know prove you know something's true sort of thing. So you know we've got, so people get online and they say, well, you know, you cure coronavirus by staring directly at the sun for 15 minutes a day. And then, you know, you have all of these very smart, sensible people having to spend a lot of their time going actually, no, that's not true. That's, you know, you can see this, that andthey're not going to read. And that's sort of, I mean, you don't even have to go to freedom of information requests for this. You know, you can read it in the handset, right, like the log of proceedings in Australian government with, you know, bring up Malcolm

Roberts again, total moon unit, you know, promoting these fucking conspiracy theories to very smart, you know, civil servants and them, you know, not recorded, but you can hear them shaking their head and sighing kind of very patiently. And it takes time, and it's time wasting, right? It takes up oxygen and it takes up visibility to deal with these things. And in effect, it just gives it more visibility. And I think, you know, what you were saying with journalists needing to to their you know, stuff like having the word refuted in the headline of articles, having the position of this, the ridiculous of whatever it is that we're discussing in the lead of the articles. And I think something that I've seen online

for the last little while as well is instead of trying to refute people that, you know, say, well, climate change is a liberal conspiracy or blah, just telling them to shut to to the people that you know say well climate change is a is a liberal conspiracy or blah blah blah just telling them to shut the fuck up and it's it's equally as effective and it saves you a lot of time and I think it delegitimizes immediately the position that they're taking right so I think a lot of this time that we're that we're spending with chief medical officers you know sending articles to these people and blah blah is in a way legitimizing their complete nutso point of view by giving it time and oxygen, when really they, the media, us on Twitter, Facebook, should be just telling them to shut the fuck up. Shut up. Shut up. It's not, it's not real. Shut up. That up. Shut up. Stop. It's not real. Shut up. Like, that's it. That's

the legitimate answer that it deserves. Well, part of the reason that him going on that show in the UK during the bushfires was such a sort of viral moment was because the host said, yeah, shut the fuck up. Like, the thing you're talking about just isn't true. And, you know, I think to some segments of media, obviously that's like this big revelation. But, um, so I did want to ask about something in this kind of, from this perspective of, I don't know, journalistic integrity or how these things get

discussed in a kind of journalistic level. I was curious to kind of pick your brain about how the story has been handled in the media about Craig Kelly supposedly being given a dressing down by the prime minister. Because obviously, as we've discussed at length this guy has been a minister for 11 years he has been circulating crackpot views of one kind or another for the entire time. He just has a larger audience now and you know also I guess this is the first time that it's been views that he's been disseminating that are kind of directly contradicting something that is doing like good

polling numbers for the government. Because I think the government is broadly seen in opinion polls as having handled the pandemic well. And he's out here saying, oh no, all the vaccines and the treatments are bullshit and they're not letting you do the right thing, all that sort of stuff. So, you know, when he was saying, climate change is bullshit and we should build another Hazelwood coal power plan, there's obviously a big section of the Liberal Party and the nationals particularly that are saying, yes, absolutely, we should be doing that. Yeah, like a little relief valve that's distant enough from the core of the party that they

can kind of not make it official, but it's there. It's letting horrible little farts. Whereas, yeah, I think that, you know, Scott Morrison is a transactional politician and he's looking at this stuff as, oh, this is finally starting to have a bit of a negative impact on the view of how the government is handling the pandemic. And so, he's been asked about this a bunch of times, has refused to refute the views of Craig Kelly a whole bunch of times. Then he had his, and now I'm not a hundred percent clear on the timeline here, but he had his national press club address and he got asked by Laura Tingle about,

hey, doesn't this kind of undermine the efforts of the government and all the money that you're spending on, you know, public awareness campaigns to let people know that it's good to get the vaccine and you should do it and everything? When you have your own ministers out here in the public saying, ah, it's all hoax and you should actually be using this other kind of medicine instead, and he pretty much, you know, just waved it away as like, oh well, I don't go and see Craig Kelly for my medical advice. You should go to an official government website instead, despite the fact that as you had said, Cam, you know, the things that he posts are circulated much more widely than people actually

visiting those websites. And he's just kind of brushed all thi off. And then an article appears in the media in on news.com. that are you saying, oh the Prime Minister has called Craig Kelly in and read him the riot act and told him to stop doing all this stuff. So there's that dealt with. And I'm curious about this from a journalistic perspective because the way that the way that there's that dealt with. And I'm curious about this from a journalistic perspective because the way that this appears to me, the layman or common idiot of the land, is that Craig Keller gets to do whatever the fuck he wants until it's finally not looking good for Scott Morrison.

Scott Morrison's office I guess gives a drop to whichever journalist saying, don't worry, he bought him in and spanked his bottom, and Craig said, I'm sorry. And so we get to have a story circulated in a bunch of the most read newspapers in the country, saying the Prime Minister has dealt with this and somehow all without the Prime Minister ever having to say publicly what he's doing isn't acceptable as a minister in my government. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, he's, you know, Scott Morrison's driving factor, it appears, has been to avoid any, I guess, coverage of, you know, disunity

in the government or whatever. And for a long time, a long long time, he's ignored this misinformation that, you know, like you said, there's a lot of climate change denialists or at least people who are very much down playing it, and, but that, you know, there's a lot of those in the party so that hasn't really gone against necessarily the sensibilities of everyone in the party the party room. But with this and you know he really is on an island by himself or with a very small proportion of the party room. That kind of stuff wants it it start to go against government policy you know again they kind of left it because they didn't want to seem like, you know, they didn't want to seem like they were calling out a member of their own party. They are after all, they say where the party of free speech were a broad church. But what really happened was we saw it become a bigger and bigger issue because I mean, well he kept on doing it. I don't thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi th. th. th. th. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. th. the. they didn't they didn't they they they they they they they they they they, I don't think that really changed, but, you know, more and more people have been paying attention to it. You know, particularly also, we just like, we get to the point where there's going to be a vaccine. People in Australia will be vaccinated in like a month.

So this idea that you can, you should be like, I guess disparaging that and instead promoting, you know, like we said before, like, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, to, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, and, to, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is a, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, is, is, said before, like horse deworm is a ridiculous idea and became more and more ridiculous. But once it became a bigger political liability, I mean I would suspect that there was a judgment by the PM's office that, that, you know, it became a issue to have been seen not to have done something. But you know, the thing that, the reason I've reported on it, and as we've kind of discussed recently is because, you know, I've been saying that he, regardless of whether the press gallery, regardless of whether, you know, a lot of Australian media have been paying

attention to him or not, he has had a really, really large audience and impact for, you know, a long time now. And what Scott Morrison has Scott, their their tha, th. th. I, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. I, th. I, thi, thi, thi, thin, th. I've, th. I've, th. I've, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I've, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, you th. And, theee. And, th. And, th. And, tha. And, th. And, th. And, th. And,time now. And what Scott Morrison has and what other political figures in the party have, you know, the leaders, they also have a very big platform themselves and they can draw attention to the fact that, you know, these are not truths, that he's promoting these ridiculous treatments. And so, you know, clearly what happened is there was a political calculation that they wanted to do something about it, but I think that there was already a lot of kind of damage that was done and if the government was really worried about making sure that, you know, during a pandemic that like the right public health information was getting out, if that's what they

were basing the decisions off, they clearly didn't do very well. And so that's why I think it think I think I think I think I think I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the, the, thr. their the. the. the. the. the. their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. theeeeeea. thea. tea. tea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. the. they were basing the decisions off, they clearly didn't do very well. And so that's why I think it's very hard to view this as anything but a kind of, but a political move, something that was about, you know, I guess, realizing that it was getting to the point where they had to do something. But I think that's really unfortunate. And we've kind of seen already, you know, Craig has not paid attention to that. I think he took like a day off posting, which is a long time for him, and then has since like I think he's posting about these treatments in a more, less direct way. He's been linking to interviews that other people have done on like radio talking about that. I think that we really just like, you know, in all of this that people who are, you know, have these big th th th thi thi th th thi thi th thi th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th the th th th th to to to to th the the th the the the the the the the. the. the like, you know, in all of this that people who are, you know, have these big audiences on social media are often given these audiences, like we kind of said before, by the fact that they are an MP, or the fact, often, you know, they are promoted

in traditional media. You know, you see, TV, hosts and reporters or even, you know, movie styles and whatever, they often have massive followings on social media despite the fact that they are obviously predominantly a traditional that in a traditional format. So they've played a big role in kind of promoting these ideas and they also have the opportunity to like call it out like if Scott Morrison went up you know before last week and said what Craig Kelly is saying is wrong we listen to the advice, you know, we and we know that the government does not support the use of hydroxy chloroquin or whatever,

that could have a really big impact. We know that people pay attention to that. The fact that they didn't, again, shows that they don'tthe harm it's doing, but more about any political cost and that's why they decided to do something. Um, hey, Thea, you know what I just got really depressed about? No. Remembering that Malcolm Roberts got re-elected. Yeah, game back, drank from the poison cup again. Had another big drink of the poison cup again. Had another big drink of the coolade, that guy.

Oh boy. All the Senate. Hey, look, if Craig wants to stay in Parliament, his best bet would be to switch to the Senate. Because, you know, I think this is an interesting question. You know, he has made this big audience, you know, on Facebook. But they are very clearly spread throughout the world and certainly spread throughout Australia. And so, you know, if he was going to stand for election in his currency, I don't, I think it'd be a really

interesting test to see, well how much, like, what kind of boost can you get from having, you know, that kind of, I guess, conspiracy, or at least you know, kind of like anti-lockdown supporters versus the bad press of seeming and I guess acting like someone is promoting junk science. But yeah, I think we do see more of those French points of view in the Senate. And that's how Malcolm and other people have managed to hang around. Oh boy, what a world we live in. And I guess like, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting to look at when you're comparing it to, say, current events in the US where you've got them deciding whether to censure, say, Marjorie

Taylor Green, who has like openly called for executing Nancy Pelosi and has speculated that maybe the California forest fires were started by a Rothschild's Jewish space laser and you know all that sort of very cool stuff and that's that's just a kind of politician that they have now. Yeah, yeah, they're true posters you know they'll, they post now. Yeah, yeah. They're true posters, you know. They'll, they post their way into Parliament or into Congress. And then they're kind of get there and, you know, even when they kind of at that point say, you know, they disavowed it. As like, you know, Craig ostensibly did the vaccine rollout, and even as Madrigue Green Taylor said, you know, oh, I don't they they they don't they don't they don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, their their their their their their their their they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, their...... they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're they're they're they're they're they're their their their their their their true. true. their their their their their their their their their they're they're they're they're they're, I'm supporting the vaccine rollout. And even as Madrigreen Taylor said, you know, oh, I don't, I don't believe that the wildfires

were started by Jewish space lasers or whatever. But by that point, they've already got this devoted audience who, who, you know, I sophisticated enough to know that even if someone says something like that, you know, they may be kind of playing the game as well. So.. So, so, so, so, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thr-I. And, thr-I'm, thr-I'm, tho. thoo. And, th. And, th. And, tho. And, th the. And, th the, the, the, that, you know, they may be kind of playing the game as well. So I think, unfortunately, this is part of politics that is here to stay, particularly as other parts of politics don't do everything they can to distance themselves from it to call it out. I'm kind of conscious of the fact that this is being like a very serious, depressing episode. I'm really sorry. We do them every now and then it it it it it it it it's it's thi. thi. thi. thi, it's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thiiiiii. And, thiii. And, thi. So, thi. thi, thi, depressing episode. I'm really sorry. We do them every now and then it's fine.

But hey, look, I think the, you know, the silver lining is that there, you know, there is this, you know, there's been a move against Craig Kelly in his own seat for a while. Like, you know, for the last two elections, like you said, prime ministers have had to come in and say, please don't do that. And if not for them, he probably wouldn't be the member. And now it clearly has become a political cost to the current government enough that they've decided, well, we're not going to, you know, eat up any of our political capital, but trying to keep him around. So, you know, for better or for worse, you know, everyone's posting has worked, you know, calling him out, drawing attention to this has meant that it's very likely that Craig Kelly will not sit in the next Parliament and I think, you know, our public health measures will be better off for it.

Let's hope so. Are you tired of paying nothing for the same old superior quality free episodes of the Buntavista podcast? Do you want less politics and more content about diarrhea? Our animals gone wild? You're tired of skipping through those hours upon hours of paid product placement for Mark Wahlberg's film shooter? Well boy do I have the offer of a lifetime for you.

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Speaking of a I guess people who are no longer in government, but still hold an influence, and are also crackpots. Ben, would you like to give us a little update on the postings of, I guess, guy we have spoken about on the podcast before a long time ago, Libertarian Wingnut, David Lyon Home. I would absolutely love you. I'm going to read the Lane, Lane, Lion Helm. Okay. I'm going to read the, I'm, I'm. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm the the, I'm the, I'm the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I'm, I'm, I'm the the the the the, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are, and are. And, I, I, I, I, I the, I the, I the, I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, I the their th. I th. I'm the th. I'm the their also the the the their also also also their also their also their also their also th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'. I Lyonholm. I would absolutely love to. I'm going to read the... Lanehol? Lionhelm. Okay.

I'm going to read the text of a tweet here to you. This is from David Lyon Helm posted 4.26pm on February 2, 2021. In several countries, Ivermecton is being used to treat COVID-2. For those who want some, this th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I to to to to thi, I to to thi, to thi, thi, thi, to thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, tha, tha, tian, too, tian, tian, t, t, t, t, t, tian, t, to tian. I tooom. I tooom. I tooom. I tooom. I tooom. I tooome, tooome, tooome, tooome, thae, thae, thae, thau.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. L.a, ta.. For those who want some, this horse product is probably the most economical source, enough to treat the street too. I love, as soon as someone says horse product, my ears. Yeah, so I'll describe the product too, because what he's done is he's put a pack of it on the carpet in his house and taken a sort of flat lay image of it. It's a long rectangular prism sort of box, predominantly black, with a picture of a sunset and the silhouette of two horses, one big, one small. The product is called Equimec. So this is horse medicine, very clearly, as he himself says, straight up.

This is what the FDA has to say about Ivermectin. Q, should I take Ivermecton to prevent or treat COVID-19? A. No. While there are approved uses for Ivermectin and people and animals is not approved for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19. You should not take any medicine to treat or prevent COVID-19 unless it has been prescribed to you by your health care provider and acquired from a legitimate source. And as we know, big government is stopping doctors from prescribing I've emmectin to you. They would be giving you horse medicine hand over fist if it wasn't for the big wigs in big government. Or sort of handover hoof. No, they're the doctors are people. It's horse medicine because it's for horses, not because it's from horses.

It's not being prescribed by a horse doctor to another horse. It is not Dr. Horse, the medical horse, wearing a sort of a white coat with one of those reflector things on its head saying, no! And giving you some horse pills, or human pills, I guess. Actually, it's Dr. Ed. I don't think Dr. Ed went to medical school. Can I just read a couple of sentences to you from the Ibermecton Wikipedia page? Yes, please. So it is, you know, it's a medication used for treating some things. One of those things isn't COVID-19. Here are some things that it is.

I've a meckton is a medication used to treat many types of parasite infestations. And humans, this includes headlice, scabies, river blindness. Sorry, so what? River blindness. Oh, I hate it when I have a dip in the river, come back out. Hey, can't find my pants. Who's that there? Oh no, I have become a struck down with river blindness.

The list continues. Stronglylysis, trichuriasis, ascariasis, and lymphatic philariasis. In veterinary medicine, it is used to prevent and treat heartworm and acariasis, one other indications. It can be taken by mouth or applied to the skin for external infestations. So if you've got an external case of COVID-19, it's rubbed that into the part of your forearm that the novel coronavirus has appeared, and'm sure that'll probably work. Just getting... And if you go river boiling this,

two birds one stone. Rub it straight into your eyes. Getting COVID and rubbing Ivor Meceton on like Vicks. Oh God. Under your neck or gargling it just to make sure it's a room to throat either. I'm also enjoying the thought of enough to treat the street too like like like like like like the the the the the the the the the to the to the the to the the the to the to to the to the the the the to to the to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to rub to rub. I to rub. I to rub. I to rube to rube to rube to rube to rube to rube to rube to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoooooooooome. their their their toe it. toe it. toe it's toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. the thought of enough to treat the street too, like you get in the old ice cream van going down the road with green sleeves, get your horse medicine, all the kids are like, ah, horse medicine for me, papa, and they're running out to horse medicine. I've lost your sets of smell. Come and have some horse medicine. Well bye. Case of river blindness, come see me at number 10. We've got the sound on so you can just follow the green space. It is probably worth noting, not that this makes him in any way qualified to treat COVID-19

with horse medicine, at least in humans. Or to be a senator. He has a degree in veterinary science. And he was briefly a practicing veterinarian before he moved into, to the told to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to the to the to to to the the to be to be to to to to to to be to to to to to to to be to to to be the to be to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe, toe. And, toe. And, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, the, the, the, the sound, the sound, the sound, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the same same, the same, theyyananananananananan.eanan.eanan.eanananananan. Wea'eananananan. Wea'eananananan. Wea, toeanananananane. Wea, to be a senator. He has a degree in veterinary science and he was briefly a practicing veterinarian before he moved into sort of more marketing roles in the agricultural space. So he's the horse doctor. He is the horse doctor. He is Dr Ed the horse doctor. There you go. Well I think that that about does it for the moment. Thank you Cam for joining us. Thanks very much, Jents. And where, there are, the the tha. There the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. And th. the thin, thin, thin, the th that that about does it for the moment. Thank you, Cam for joining us. Thanks very much, Jenz.

And where can people read your musings and your tracking of Craig Kelly and his where where it's where it's? Yeah, if you'd like to follow along, probably easiest just to get me on Twitter where I'm at Cameron Wilson. Excellent. Great. And, Great and we are currently doing, I'm going to continue to call it, Freemium Free Brewery, where our bonus episodes will be free for the month. So if you are subscribed you will get a little dose, a

free taste, a free application of horse medicine directly into your ears. The first four tastes are free, depending on how many Thursdays there are on this month that might be five. Freemium Thursday freebuary. Yeah, this episode is probably going to come out today and that's a Sunday, it's not a Thursday or not even close. And also the first episode for February is about four days at this point. Yeah. Great.

So we're doing well. We're doing great. Yeah. Well-oiled machine. Thanks everybody. And we'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Bye.

Bye. the