Boonta Vista - EPISODE 33: State Of The Unions (Featuring @burgerdrome)

Episode Date: February 6, 2018

Andrew, Theo and Ben are joined by Tim, an officer with the NSW meat workers union. We cover topics like the reasons that casual staff, contractors and developers generally have low rates of union membership, and how they can still help each other by joining. We're also answering questions from our listeners about how unions in their own workplaces, how to find out which union you should join, and plenty more. Follow Tim on twitter at http://twitter.com/burgerdrome and check out his piece on workplace rights in the video game industry here: https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/16/15622366/valve-gabe-newell-sales-origin-destructive Find and join your union here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join Support the show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista Don't forget to rate & subscribe on iTunes if that's your thing. _____________________________ Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Buntavista Socialist Club, episode 33. I'm here with my beloved sweet Theo. Oh, that's so kind of you. Hello. Yeah, back from Japan. He's now half Japanese, because that's how that works. I think I'm turning Japanese. Yeah. We have with us a guest today. We have a guest who is a union rep named Tim.

Hi Tim. Hi, how you doing? I am very well, thanks. So Tim has joined us today. He is an officer with the Meatworkers Union in New South Wales, and we wanted to get him on and ask a whole bunch of union-related questions. Yes, and I'll be more than happy to take all those questions. Although I have a question of my own, did anyone ever get back to you about weird red? Weird red diks, as in people whose dicks go red?

Yeah, yeah, that was a real like, just need an answer to that one. How about like angry-looking penises? No, nobody, nobody weighed in on that. That's disappointing. I have to go back and listen to that episode. Yeah, yeah, because for a second there I was like, hmm, how do we get there? I was saving that one up. Well, before the recording started just to just drop it right in there. Lucy has had too much sun and far too many beers today watching the Super Bowl and feeling incredibly gratified and full of full of sour grapes for Tom Brady. She's very happy but she needs to have a lie down and drink some water. So that is where Lucy is. And Ben will., but she needs to have a lie down and drink some water. So that is where Lucy is. And Ben will probably drop in with us in the next five minutes or so.

So when he joins us, we'll all say, hi Ben. All right. Did you need to do a disclaimer? Yeah, I should do a disclaimer, a very boring disclaimer. So just for the purposes of legality, all of my opinions represent entirely my own dip-shit thoughts and should not be construed as the opinions of the Union I work for. And of course I'm not a spokesperson for the Union here in a personal capacity. Thanks very much. What, uh, just opinions. Just opinions. We're just talking. Hey Matt, just got a few opinions. Just gonna let him out.

Just ideas. You're not scared of ideas, are you? I am. Frankly, I am. I am. Yeah, we all are. Extremely frightened of ideas. I think.

So yeah, like a part of the reason that we, that we ask you to come on the show is, yeah, you know, obviously we often kind of make reference to unions and how we think that they are good, people should join them. Agreed. You know, very much. That's, it's one of the best ways for workers to have a hand in representing themselves. And obviously they can be really effective. We had sort of covered some instances of like pretty public actions between employers and unions, where the unions had found success due to sort of well-orchestrated campaigns. There was the streets boycott that worked out really well.

That's the mighty AMWU. Yep. There was also the Carlton United strike. It all worked out well in the end. The Cub, hold it so the Cub ADA, somewhere? I can't remember how many Cub workers they were, but also another great AMW victory but with the addition of the ETU and several other unions. Yeah. Oh so, so let me ask you a question about one of those campaigns because it was a thing that came up on the show and and and we had thoughts about it but nothing close to an actual answer. Sure. So when the streets boycott happened, there obviously it was good because a lot of people that I saw and knew all just went, all I guess I'm not buying them anymore. It very clearly had a big effect on their sales.

They would have felt a pretty decent impact. People were taking photos of the freezer section at supermarkets where all the ice cream at the height of summer is cleared out and the streets stuff is completely packed full with 50% off. Yeah, so good. So yeah, I imagine that they felt a really direct financial effect from that action. And that led to them, you know, backing down and saying, all right, we're gonna gonna keep everyone on to their rates instead of forcing people to take, what was it? What was it like a 36% pay cut or whatever it was? Yeah, actually it might be a little bit more, but dropping them back down to the award

rate, which is for international listeners the minimum legal wage for a specific trade. And yeah, so I saw people saying after the sort of resolution of that action, I saw some people saying, great stuff, now I can try one of those golden gay time ice cream sandwiches or whatever. And I saw a bunch of other people saying, oh, well, fuck those guys. I'm not going to support that company because they tried to, you know, do the dirty on all those workers. Yeah.

Which sort of made me go, well, isn't the whole point, as a member of the public of participating in an action like that, isn't the whole point to show solidarity for the workers and say, if you are going to treat your workers like this, I will withdraw my business from you, you will take a financial hit from it that will be more significant than what you're proposing to recoup from your workers anyway, because I'm sure that's what the decision comes down to at the end of the day. Yeah. So when they resolve that action and the workers get what they wanted out of it, do you think people should kind of go back to their relatively normal behavior? Because if a whole bunch of people say,

ah, I'm going to continue to not buy these products. Are you not just hurting the workers that work at that company at that point? Yeah, I mean, look, really, the question you're asking gets at the heart of the main problem with any kind of enterprise under capitalism, which is that you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. You know, if we, I personally think the right thing to do in to do in to do in to do in to do in to do in to do in the right thing to do in that situation is at least to return to what you might call normal purchasing levels purely as a way of showing the workers that you are

supporting them and that you're willing to keep the company afloat and they can continue to get a wage. But you know, certainly I am sympathetic to people who say, well actually, look at this company is a heap of shit, isn't it? I mean, look at what they're willing to do, look at what they would probably do again if they thought they could get away with it. You know, we shouldn't be supporting them at all. I don't think that enough people are going to say, well, this has turned me off streets forever to absolutely destroy the streets processing factory and Minto. I don't think th that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi thi thi thi thi this this thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's a possibility, but I think, you know,

really that touches on the more broader question of, is it ethically possible to consume anything, under capitalism, the answer of course is no. And that makes it difficult to really answer that that particular question. I think ideally if we could say, well, you know, streets clearly have demonstrated that they care not for their workers. Let's initiate a public campaign to transform them into a worker co-op. Then yes, I'd be like, well, we should definitely be taking that angle. But that's not really an option that is on the table at the moment. I think there's no easy answer to that question, but I would say my personal point of view is,

you know, at least in the short term, buy some streets ice cream and keep the workers going because the reality is that streets have already flagged what their intentions are and they just need to find another legal way to do it. And you may as well give the workers some money in the short run, at least while they're on a good bargaining agreement that gives some good wages. Do you think there is a possibility for like rehabilitation after punishment, so sort of if you view this as putting them in prison right, right? Like the point is not to be, I think, aggressively cruel towards them, but to, you know, have sensibly retained some sort of, I'd like, like not to be I think aggressively cruel towards towards them but to you know have sensibly retained some sort of I'd like hope of reconciliation.

Do you see that out of companies often that they will bounce back or do they or are they destined to re-offend? Well look I mean they're destined to re-offend is the answer because they operate in a system which incentivizes them to be huge arsholes. Even the most well-intentioned company will inevitably slide downwards into cutting wages, cutting conditions, looking for ways to increase profits, and there's only one way to increase profits and that's the only way to reliably do it. I certainly think that we should punish companies who wrong us, but the

reality is that we're just punishing them when they wrong us too much and then they go back to wronging us to the appropriate level and we forget about it and that's like kind of the overarching issue with the whole economic model. But I think companies will always look for ways to cut corners because that's what they have to do. And I guess I don't blame them for it. I'm not saying they have no agency. They definitely have some agency.

But they operate in a system which encourages them to cut corners and to hurt people in the name of profits. And they'll always do that because tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the way the way the way the way their their their their their their their their their their profits. And they'll always do that because there's no other way to reliably make the profits they have to make. And then that really comes down to a question of changing the system in order to stop these people doing it rather than slapping them on the wrist when they do it and then looking the other way when they go right back to it again because because because because because because because because because because because th. because th. because th. because th. because that's what they have to do if they want to succeed. Now I'm just going to pause for a moment and say, I think we've been joined by our friend Ben. Hello. Hi Ben.

Good day Ben. Hi Ben. I'm online. I'm jacked in. the first time. the very first time checking out this internet. It seems pretty good. I've had a a a th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I've thi, I've thi, I've thi, I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th, I've th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, time checking out this internet. It seems pretty good. I've had a bit of a play around.

Seems like there's a lot of cartoons of big titty women. So far the internet is looking to them. What are we doing recording this podcast? Exactly. I don't know. You guys should definitely put down your tools. Go, uh, yeah, huge titties, and all of them completely drawn off and by hand.

I'd just like to throw it out there as a quick diversion, that the ads on porno websites, like say porn hub and that kind of thing, just so much more offensive than the actual porno. What do you mean by offense? Uh, well, the number of them that seemed to be like, uh, incestuous versions of popular cartoon family shows? I mean, you're probably getting served those ads. Oh, absolutely.

They shouldn't be making it though. I mean, it doesn't matter what some sicko wants to look at, you don't have to give it to them. So you just go and type incestuous versions of popular cartoon families into Google every day and hope the number is zero. Yes. Generally, I'm checking to make sure that there's nothing there. When it's not zero, you get, you pull out a pen and paper from the drawer and carefully compose a letter to Sydney morning. Three results. Pulls out my spreadsheet. Eight thousand.

There's still pornograph. I'm just out here tallying my incestuous bananas. Anyway, folks, porno on the internet, check it out. Did you want me to comment on that from a trade union perspective, Andrew? Well, ideally. Ideally. I can't. Next question.

How much of these cartooners getting paid per frame? So coming back to talk about the media alliance under this sheet. So Ben, we're talking unions, as you're aware. And of course, we were just touching on the difficulty of the old ethical consumption under capitalism. A lot of situations where it ain't that easy. Yeah, I think just coming back to what you were talking about a second ago, Tim, that, it's, um, yeah, like I think at the end of the day, people can have any kinds of, that, yeah, like I think at the end of the day,

people can have any kinds of ideas that they like about, you know, a company's loyalty or allegiance to them or any of that sort of stuff. And you can get a whole lot of nice, rosy scenarios from places that you work often for years at a time when things are going well. And then things start not going well, and all of thoes thoes those those those those thoes those thoes thoes tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thoes tho tho thoes tha thae thae thae thae thae tho thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thae thae thae thae thae thae thae tha tha tha thae thae thae thae thae thae to to te tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooe thae thae t years at a time when things are going well, and then things start not going well, and all of those tunes change, especially if you are working for any kind of public company, because the reality is that, exactly like you were saying, the people that are running those companies are responsible to shareholders.

And shareholders have a single interest, which is returning profit on their investment. Yep and even if it's not shareholders I mean like some of the worst defenders are private companies and mom and dad small business operations. I can't tell you how often small business commit some of the most heinous crimes when it comes to underpayment and exploitation that big business simply can't get away with because of their large profile. It's not, I mean it's very good to blame big big business, bubbbob, but certainly I agree that we should blame big business and steal hot chooks from them at every opportunity. But I'm not not, not say it's not an official statement. But look what I would say is that we have seen in our work

that small businesses just run roughshod over the obligations because they can't be bothered to find even what they are. Whereas big business at least have to know what the letter of the law is and they tow it with infuriating precision because that's their model is to work precisely within the lines, whereas the small business model is often just to ignore the lines altogether and just completely screw people over. It's, yeah, so just to pop that in there.

I will say on a purely anecdotal level that that is completely true to me as 100% of my experiences working for like businesses with less than 15 people in them have come out exactly like that where the person running the business seems to have, it's like people get into this whole place in their mind where they say, ah, I've invested a lot of my money in this business. everybody who's working here must be just as invested in looking after my money as I am. Yes, exactly. And it leads people to making a lot of very uncool choices and then justifying them in

incredibly flimsy ways when you know that at the end of the day what they're looking after is their money. I would like to see them. Sorry I was cut you off there. But they're like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi, thi's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi. thi, thi's that's that's that's that's thi's thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii's thi's thi. thi. thi. th end of the day, what they're looking after is their money? I would like to see them. Sorry, I was, I'll cut you off there. But yes, that's exactly right. And what we find when we go into small businesses is that they often, the owners have a very different approach to big business. So a big business will just make sure you know that you're a number in a machine and

you know you're replaceable in order to drive your morale down. The small business says the opposite. They feed you home-cooked dinners, you know, they give you lifts, that kind of thing. And it's designed to make you feel like you're part of the team and you're part of the family. But at the end of the day, these people don't even know what the award rate is, and certainly don't know what it would mean to pay that amount of money. So, like, it's still exploitation. It's just a different kind, and it has a smiley face on it. And that's one of the major issues is that small businesses can get away with a lot more than big businesses because people are willing to extend love to them and to humanize them in a way

that ultimately they don't deserve any more than a megalithic multinational corporation does. And I think in the small businesses, the front line employees as well tend to absorb a lot of the incompetence and mismanagement of their managers. So like you said, you know, they'll treat them really, really nicely and they'll cook them dinters them them them them their them their their their their their them their their their their their their their their their their their their their their them dine their them them their them them them them them them their them them them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. They're them. They're them. They're themagement of their managers. So like you said, you know, they'll treat them really, really nicely and they'll cook them dinners and that sort of thing. And by the way, no, you can't take today off sick because we don't have anyone else to run the desk. It's like, well, shit, that's not, I. But because they've fed you this bullshit

on how we're all one big family, you'll just, you'll pull together and you'll come in today, won't you? Exactly. And it's terrible. I've seen people abused like this for years sort of thing before they finally go. Shit, I have to cut the tie here. And it's like you've got to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho one one one one one one one one one one one the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all one one one one. tho o'er. thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom. th. thoooooooooo o' th. th. th. th. th cut the tie here and it's like it's not like cutting the tie to a machine it's cutting the tire to like you've got to walk in and quit in front of this person who you will probably affect financially by by making this decision and like I don't think it's fair for the worker to to to work. No, it's not. It's absolutely not. And look I think you know this is a good time to segue into something. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. It. It. It. It. It. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's, th. It's, tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's tie. It's to. It's to. Ittime to segue into something that I think the union movement could do a lot more of, and that is to promote the development of worker co-ops in Australia, where workers actually have ownership of the business and have the democratic right to decide

what they make, how they sell it, how much they sell it for, and what to do with the profits, rather than a top-down hierarchical dictatorship, which is pretty much a correct description of our current workplace system. I think that sort of thing is something the union movement needs to be looking at a lot more of how to develop worker co-ops, how to build them and how to sustain them. And that's something that I personally believe we do a lot more to help people in the workplace, not only to feel a sense of ownership, which there's really lacking, but also to basically just address a lot of the problems that come from the fact that workplaces are fundamentally undemocratic dictatorships where one person in power makes all the decisions.

And that means not only wage theft although clearly it does but it means sexual harassment it means sexual favors it means racism I mean whatever a person's biases and horrific vices may be they are realized in the workplace through that tyrannical hierarchy and that's something that I I think the union movement should be working on more in my opinion. Yeah and I assume that like unions generally need to be in a stronger position than they are today in order to carry that sort of transformation off. Yeah I think so. I think that's definitely

worth noting that yeah in Australia am I correct in understanding that's like workplace union memberships are at a historical low in Australia, am I correct in understanding that workplace union memberships are at a historical low in Australia? Yes. Yeah they are. I mean they're higher in the in the public sector than the private sector but not by much. I think it's 10% in the private, sorry public sector and gosh, eight or six percent in the private, it's terrible. There's no two ways about it. Everyone knows it's terrible. For me to tell you it's terrible is not for me to betray some kind of big union-seeker.

It's very open. That union membership in Australia is terrible. And it's something that the union movement is desperately working to address. And then there's a lot of ideas being put on the table, but fundamentally, there are a lot of reasons why it's terrible. But together they've created a perfect storm of basically making Australia one of the worst unionized first world countries ever, anywhere. And it's really appalling. It's such a shame as well because, I mean, you know, as we were talking about before the show, yeah, the Australian Labour Party was built by the Union movement, which in turn would have given us a lot of the things that we, you know, really, I think so many

Australians take for granted today, which is probably also a key element of the whole thing to touch on is people taking certain conditions for granted. Absolutely. I mean, I certainly did before I joined the movement. I had no idea about things like the weekend being a union creation, that people quite literally fought and in some cases, you know, died for to give us the eight hour day. And because they don't teach it in schools and they don't really talk about it in the newspapers. And I mean, we're all roughly the same age here, right? Like 30s-ish. Like, for us to grow up in Australia, you could not go to school and have someone say to

you, all right, here's the history of organized labor and all the benefits it gave us. You know, if you were to open any mainstream newspaper in our formative years and even to today, you would not find anything saying like, here's all the benefits of organized labor and what it did for us throughout the century. It's like you just don't talk about it's it's it's it's to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to to to to the to to to to to to to the to to to be. to be. to be. to be. to to the to be. too. to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to me. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I's, the. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, toda. try. today, today, today, today, today, toe. I'm, the the. It's like you just don't, you don't talk about it. And it's a real shame and it's a deliberate campaign. Like, I don't want to say a real shame, because that really downplays how deliberate it's been. But it's a real shame that people these days and certainly myself included just don't understand that kind of thing. Yeah, there's very clearly been a long concerted and apparently quite successful campaign by both conservative governments and

political parties and sections of the Australian media yet to just demonize all unions. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure a lot of people in this country would based off things in the media and that sort of stuff. Their immediate association would be you know union thugs. Yeah. I mean that's what I thought growing up like if you'd asked me when I was 15 saying what is a union I would have immediately recalled front page news stories of big white bearded blokes in high viz is at construction sites probably slacking off when they should be working and you know bullying people into taking money or something.

Like that's what I was presented with during my formative years. So why wouldn't I take that in as absolute fact? Like it's in a newspaper, right? Must be true. Yeah, it's, I don't know, it's just staggering to me how apparently successful that has been. And relatively coordinated as well. You know, there's, and I think to a certain extent you can really see that in Australia

the debate around unions, particularly in the media, has just kind of been set into a particular frame now. Yes, absolutely. And I think it's very hard to change that, and to change that direction. I was reading an article earlier today in the Saturday paper that was about, you know, the formation of the new Home Affairs Ministry. Very long piece, but one of the things that I really noticed, and I'm like, I'm sure it was deliberate, but the author kept

referring to you know Peter Dutton and Michael Pizzullo the head of yeah that faceless bureaucrat who basically controls immigration in Australia. Yeah that that you know he kept sort of saying oh, so once they'd stop the boats, then they said about doing this other thing, or they sort of reframe their priorities as being about this. And I was just struck by the number of times in the article that the author used the phrase, stop the boats. And it was, it just really struck me as being like, okay, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the thi, tho, tho, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thr, tho, thooooooo, theeeeeat, thooo, thoooooo, thoooooo, thoo, tho, tho, the, stop the boats. And it was, it just really struck me as being like, okay, we've now 100% adopted the framing of how they wanted this to be perceived. Yeah, that's right. And whether or not it was it was an intentional sort of, you know, nod to the propaganda or, or whatever it might have been, it still sort of really leapt out at me as, um, as, um, as, um, as, um, the, um, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, to the propaganda or whatever it might have been.

It still sort of really leapt out at me as, because it's, you know, it's quite a left-wing paper as well, I think. Yeah, it is. And a good one. I read a lot of stuff. But, like, if, to bring that back to the union movement, yes, exactly. And that's a big problem because it's no longer unions doing the traditional thing thing of, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, if, if, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, that back to the union movement, yes, exactly. And that's a big problem because it's no longer unions doing the traditional thing of saying, you know, well, look, your boss earns X and you earn Y. What the fuck's that about? That's classic organizing strategy for you there. You can try that on in your workplace. It's become like an uphill battle where unions are always on the back foot to prove they're, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it's, it, it, it, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the the their, their, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, it's, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's no, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi, if i's no, if, if it's no, if it's no thi, i's, if it's, battle where unions are always on the back foot to prove they're not corrupt, to prove that they're not too militant, to prove that they're not too combative. Rather than just being able to do their job,

they also have to run constant PR campaigns even within the workplace. I mean I, in the aftermath of the Sydney train strike or the failed Sydney Train strike, I guess we should to to to to to to to say, to say, to say, to to say, to say, to to say, to to to to to to say, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to prove to prove to prove to to to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their even within the workplace. I mean, I, in the aftermath of the Sydney Train Strike, or the failed Sydney Train Strike, I guess we should say, rest in peace. I was on the train home, and I was listening to two people talking about it behind me. And there was a lot of reference to the union guys and the union folks, and all those bloody union workers wanted X and Y. And it all came down to the same theme. What they were getting at was that the union was corrupt. People in the union, by virtue of the union's corruption, are also corrupt themselves.

And these are just average office workers on their way home on the train, and that was a perfectly normal thing for them to say. And it really struck me that like, this is the battle that the unions are fighting every day is you go in having to prove you're not corrupt. And it's just maddening, especially, I mean, not a lot of people really understand this, and especially I think the average commuter on the train probably isn't aware of it. But, but anyone, but anyone, but anyone, but anyone, but anyone, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thi, thi, th is th is th is th is th is th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, th, and especially I think the average commuter on the train probably isn't aware of it, but anyone at any time could go and review a union's finances anytime they wanted. Like unions have some of the most onerous reporting requirements for any organization

in Australia. Like it's baffling and excruciating how much time unions have to spend, accounting for every fucking dollar that they handle. And all those reports have to be provided to the Fair Work Commission and published online. Any one of our members could ring up the office and say, hey, I want to know how much the secretary gets paid, and I would have to tell them. Like, it's not a, there's no mystery there, you know, like it's a transparent member-driven democratic organization with some of the most crazy reporting requirements you've ever heard of, but constantly accused of being corrupt and and hiding everything, like you could know,

if I was to call Westpac and say, hey, listen, how much does the bank manager down the road earn? They tell me to fuck off. Like I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like, like, like, I, like, I'm, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, I, I, the, I, I the, I the, I the, I the, I th, I th, I th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, hey, listen, how much does the bank manager down the road earn? They tell me to fuck off. Like, I can't, you know, like it's a world of difference. And, and, but for some reason, nobody else has afforded this instant understanding of being irredeemably corrupt until proven otherwise. And the media and governments have very successfully campaigned on that. And that has become the de facto understanding of unions. And it's honestly, my job of the union is largely media and PR and a lot of that stuff. And having to fight against that messaging every day is tiring. Like it is very tiring. And most workers on the ground don't believe it once they've been in the union for a while. They're like, you know, they're like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the, to. Like, it is very tiring.

And most workers on the ground don't believe it once they've been in the union for a while. They're like, oh, you know, fuck that noise. But just when you're trying to convince the unorganized workforce, which is the majority of it, that's the uphill struggle, and it's so tiring. It seems like there's also, there's also problem on like a, that the well is poisoned on a political level as well, which makes it very difficult to push the stuff through. Like, you know, I think the conservative government's being very good at, so good at demonizing the unions that people only have to point out, oh, well, such and such, it used to be the head of a union, you know, labor member,

used to be the head of her union. It's like, yeah, that's the fucking point. That's right. But you know, nobody does the same thing with, I mean, like, you know, let's look at, you know, to jump, like, neatly into the topicden, was running a Dyson Hayden. He's a conservative, formal high court judge. You know, he was on the panel that gave Tony Abbott his Rhodes Scholarship. Like, that's, I mean, there's no contest between, I mean, no reasonable person could look at the amount of, I'm doing air quotes here in my spare room. Corruption that goes on in the union movement, compared to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court court judge court judge court court court court court court court court court court court court court court, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the at the amount of, I'm doing air quotes here in my spare room, corruption that goes on in the union movement compared to the amount of

literal insanely obvious over-the-top corruption that happens every day in our political system and go, these are exactly the same, I'm using my... Oh the problem is... Yeah, it's just a nasty word and they've done, you know, like hats off to them, my enemies. They've done such a good job of doing that, that it is just, like, the word union in Australia is now a dirty word. Even though this country was built on faking trade unionism. I mean, you used to be one of the most militant trade, tha, thiiiiiiiiiiii and thian, thian, thian, thian, thian, thi and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho-a tho-a thoomo-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thooooooooooooooooooooananan, thanananananananananananananananan ways, everything we have today that we take for granted was built by trade unionists, but now union is a dirty word. And I think that's changing, but it's just absolutely maddening and no union

officer will tell you different. They'll just constantly tearing the hair out about it. Well, yeah, it's interesting, is that because something we were talking about before we got started was, yeah, just the idea that's, you know, there's been a lot of success around, you know, movements like Bernie Sanders and the states, and particularly around Jeremy Corbyn for Labour in the UK. But I wonder how much of that is for Labor in the UK. But I wonder how much of that is connected to the actual conditions that a lot of young people find themselves living in in those countries. Whereas in Australia, while they have been near constant attempts for the last,

I want to say, I don't know, like six years or so, to strip away any and all forms of entitlement and welfare, health care, all that sort of stuff. Granted, a lot of those things are, you know, sadly rejected as soon as people realize it's actually going to affect them and not just a poor student or anything. Yeah, there's been a lot of attacks on that sort of stuff and I think that a lot of the time people in Australia I think can seem a bit complacent about that stuff because our standard of living is so good because of all of the fights and

victories that have been had in the past to get us those conditions. Yeah, exactly. I think if you look back historically in most countries, union membership is high when times are tough, and union membership is low when times are good. And that's not to say it's non-existent when times are good, but just generally there's a broad correlation between how well things are doing and how many people are inclined to join a union. And I think that's because people understand when times get tough that they have to band together. I mean, you know, that's not exactly novel thinking. th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi when times get tough that they have to band together. I mean, you know, that's not exactly novel thinking. I mean, we teach children that in fairy tales. But it's really reflected in those rising and falling union membership levels. And because Australia has generally done well recently, there's very little incentive for

people to join the union. And that's aided by the fact that we have had a very successful series of legislation which has effectively neutered unions completely legally, as well as outsourcing their function to a quote unquote independent government body, the Fair Work Commission, to very deliberately reduce people's incentive to want to join a trade union. But I think, I genuinely believe times are changing and I think that the young people are going to be joining unions in record amounts and especially I think we're already seeing

that in the union movement. We're getting a lot of young people fresh blood coming through and we're recruiting young organizers and we're recruiting in young people's spaces and we're moving online in ways that would never have been dreamed of five or ten years ago. And that's really exciting. But I think it's going to be easier as time goes on because things are going to get worse before they get better. And nobody, on any side of the political debate is concerned about housing affordability,

is concerned about really tackling the issues that prevent wage growth. And these are all things that young people are absolutely going to need addressed. And when they don't see them addressed, they're going to look around for solutions and the union movement is going to be there to offer them. And I think that's going to be very to be very to be very to be very thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. And, thooooooooooooooooomooomoomorrow, thooooooooooooooooooooooo. And, the be there to offer them. And I think that's going to be very exciting time, but unfortunately it means that things are going to really suck for a lot of people. I mean, they already do suck, but they're going to keep sucking, suck harder. And that's not, like, overall, that's not pleasant for anyone. But I genuinely believe we're on the cusp of a turn around turn turn turn turn And I think young people are certainly getting a lot more politically motivated.

And in Australia, one of the reasons that we've seen the union movement being successful with young people is because they've started campaigning on non-workplace issues, like refugee rights, marriage equality, that kind of thing, all of which are, of course, union business and always have been, but by really selectively campaigning on that, I think they've been able to attract more young people to a movement and then kind of convert them into an understanding of trade unionism and what it means. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely seen the posters in my workplace that were up before all the marriage equality stuff went

through, which yeah, I'm pretty sure, well like yeah, rainbow posters that said equality is union business. That's the one. And I went right on. It's, it is. I mean, you know, like exactly, and I think a lot of people don't appreciate the things like anti-discrimination legislation and equal pay for women and stuff like that were delivered by unions. Equality always has been union business, and I think that gets lost in the rhetoric of painting unions as, you know, a way for big bearded white bloke in high business to slack off at work. But realistically, the legislative history is clear.

I mean, my own union, the Meatworkers Union, was the first union to legally score a victory for equal pay for women. And that's back in 1969. And they, you know, unions have been fighting this for ages. And it's really good to see them specifically rebranding on that kind of thing to try and bring more people in because you know as our social justice consciousness stirs I guess people looking for ways to make a difference in the world and one of those of course to join your fucking union and I think a lot of

people are realizing that and honestly that's super great and positive and I can't wait to see what people do with it th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the their their their their their their their their. their. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. toeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. of people are realizing that. And honestly, that's super great and positive. And I can't wait to see what people do with it. Yeah, I mean, particularly when you look at the other side of the political spectrum where they just try and lean so hard on the individuality concept. Everything is about, ah, you should be able to achieve by yourself, you should be able to do everything by yourself, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, any success you have is yours and yours alone, completely earned by you and you shouldn't have to share any of it with anyone. But as you said, when, you know, when economic conditions worsen, when there are those

erosions of like Australia's welfare states because of successive conservative governments you know chipping away at Centilink and Medicare and age care and disability care and all those things. Yeah you certainly find all these people looking around and seeing other people who are in the same boat as them. Yeah and it's some it's particularly interesting in Australia I think because when you look at things like the slow erosion of Medicare and stuff and you put Medicare in its historical context of the accord, you know, this was like, I guess for international listeners, the accord was a social contract that the unions struck with the Hawken Keating Labour government back in the 70s and 80s. And part of that was that they agreed the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tha the tha tha tha tha tha the the the the the thea thea thea thea thoer thoeroeroeroan thoan thea the theauged their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoeroeroeroeroeroeroeroeroer.a thoea thea thea thea the thea the thea thea thea thea thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the unions struck with the Hawken-Keating Labour government

back in the 70s and 80s. And part of that was that they agreed that they would stop asking for wage rises and going on strikes and the government agreed to make things like Medicare happen. And so like that was a colossal failure in hindsight and a trap in blunt terms. But now we're seeing Medicare being attacked and and trade unions come into the rescue and you know when young people are seeing oh you know Medicare is being slowly eroded this isn't fair and and that's something that's very unique to Australia is that you know the unions kind of backed off to allow for the creation of that and now they've got to come to its defense and be militant in its defense in a way and that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th and th and th and that that and that and thate thate that and than and th and th and than than and trade than than and trade than and trade th and trade th and trade th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha their their their their their their their their the the the the the that. And now they've got to come to its defense and be militant in its defense in a way that

they agreed not to be when it was created. It's a very weird situation in Australia and it's very different to how the unions were smashed in places like the US and the UK in the same time period. It's a very weird scenario. Well, we might move to a couple of questions here from our listeners and patrons. God bless you all, you beautiful people. Yeah, because I think some of the stuff that we've talked about does start to toucest touch on some of those issues.

I will open with a question that has already been answered, because that's the easiest kind. I don't read it. Fred of the show Carl says, Since leaving my trade and becoming a comfy back office logistics and ops guy, I've let my union involvement slide. I don't really even know which union's jurisdiction I fall under. How do I find out? Great question, Carl. The first thing you should do, of course, is to go to Australianunions.org. to follow the prompts to say join your union. The ACTU, which is Australia's peak body for unions, maintains full-time staff whose job it is basically just to get requests about exactly that and hook you up with the right union. I totally get why it can be daunting to not quite know which union you fall under and, you know, gosh, I myself have used the wrong union name when I should have used one that was exactly one letter different.

But there are people who's job it is to help you with that, so go to the Australian Union's website and join up and they will, you know, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen. Someone will email you back and say, hey, your union is X or your union is Y. Off the top of my head, you sound like a national union of workers guy, but really let the people whose job it is to do that make that decision for you. Can I ask a follow-up on that one? Is everybody within Australia covered by a union? Yes. Let me tell you why. You are covered by, there are unions whose job it is basically to cover miscellaneous work in almost any industry. In a very rare case that you were to have someone who absolutely fell through the gaps and was clearly not any member of a union or something like that,

any union can represent you up to the point of which they get challenged. So I could say to you, Theo, I'm now going to represent you and you would say, Tim, but I am not a butcher. And I would say, I don't really give a shit, sign up. But I am. We were talking about red dicks earlier, so why not? Ben, you're supposed to jump in on that, by the way. The, so I don't know why. I could represent you up until the point of which someone challenged it. And obviously what I'm saying here is yes, your employee could challenge it.

But realistically, that gives you representation until that is sorted. And any union could expand its constitution at any time to include you. So for some reason, we, I don't know, uncovered a whole new form of work that had been happening and we didn't know what it was. The ACTU would convene and say, look, it looks like you, you and you are the most likely people to cover this. Talk about amongst yourselves and see which of you is going to expand your constitution. And then they would do it, and that would be it.

And it's really that simple. There is always a union for everyone, even if it's a short-term bridge into another union. It's absolutely possible. There's never a point of which no one can represent you. So does that include all types of casual workers? Of course, yeah, casual workers are covered based on, everyone's covered based on their industry, not based on their employment type. The issue of course is that casual workers are some of the least likely to join the union because they have no fucking rights.

And they know it. And so when we say to them, hey, you know, can you please join the union, they say, well, why? You can't, you can't protect me if I get dismissed. And we say, well, sometimes in certain scenarios, but broadly no, no. They go, well, exactly. And they know that. And work in bosses know that. And that's why they love to keep so many the workforce casual. Not me me. I I I I I I I I I I they, I they, I they, I. I they, I they. I they they. I th and they th and I they th and I th and I th and I th and they they th. they they th. they they they they they know they know tho. they thi. they know they know, they know, they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho thooooooooooooooooooo to to the. thean. thean. they they they they they they they love to keep so many of their workforce casual. Not also because it means they dodge out an entitlements they don't have to pay, but you know it's really casual workers are the hardest to unionize because they're not committed workers, if you understand what I'm saying. Even though they might be working full-time and working 38 hours a week, they are not technically salaried direct employees with entitlements and that

means they're not entitled, it's harder for them to unionize because they've got so much more to lose and almost nothing to fall back on. Anyway, that's a diversion, the point was yes, absolutely casual workers can and should join the union because it is one of the best ways to get protection at work and to get transitioned to direct full-time employment. But. But. But. But. But, but, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, but I. But, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and I's, their, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the best ways to get protection at work and to get transition to direct full-time employment. But I suppose as well, there's another aspect that's worth thinking about, and I was thinking about this from my own perspective just then, as a person who both has before and I'm sure will in the future do contracting. Yes. You know, partly due to the industry I'm in, partly due to individual circumstances.

I mean, we moved into state at the start of the year and it was just the fastest way for me to start work in a new place. Yeah. You know, like, it would have been very, very hard if I had have been saying, well, I'm going to wait until I get a permanent role offered from somebody, which, as we've discussed, they're kind of getting, getting rarer th th th th th th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, I th, I th, I thi thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th. I th.. I th. I, I th, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thi, I th. I thi, I'm, I'm, thi, thi. I'm thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown, thin, thi. We're, thi. We thi, thi, thi, thi, well I'm going to wait until I get a permanent role offered from somebody, which as we've discussed, are kind of getting rarer and rare all the time anyway. Yeah, whereas if we just wanted to make the move and get started, I could take on a contract, I could take on a contract, you can start at short notice, you can finish it at short notice, and they can get rid of you at note notice. It's all part of the contract.

And yeah, like I have certainly been in the position of saying, oh, I would absolutely join a union if there was any point like you were saying, as I think a lot of people have that perception, but I suppose another angle to try and force yourself to consider it on is, yeah, 100% of the reason for joining a union shouldn't be what the union can do for you. Yes, that's exactly right. And I'm glad you bought it up. Let me make a few points in response to that, because I've been a contractor for most of my life. This union job, which I've had for two and a half years, is actually my first full-time job, which I've had for two and a half years, is actually my first full-time job and I'm 32 years old. So that's the state of employment in Australia basically. I deeply appreciate that it sucks to be a contractor. There are several reasons why a contractor

should join the union. One is that it's tax deductible. So lucky you. The second is that if more contractors join the union on mass, it helps to set good wages for that work, and it helps to drive wage pressure upwards. And that means that no matter where a boss goes, they hunt around for a contractor, all the contractors, a member of the union, and they say, I'm not working for less than X dollars an hour. Go fuck yourself. And that means that overall, everyone in the industry benefits.

And thirdly, you often contractors are taken advantage of and don't do their rights. And when you're a union member, you can get that legal advice and you can press for sham contracting compensation afterwards. Certainly a position I've been in, and many contractors are in. I know a lot of people who are my friends who are in sham contracting. They work in an office alongside everyone else who are direct employees on a full-time salary with sick leave and annual leave and so on, but they're contractors. And they submit an invoice and they get paid. It's bullshit. It's a fucking crime. It's literally a crime, and it's garbage. And if you're a union member,

you can get assistance in pressing that claim, you can get assistance in having your legal fees taken care of because your union member you won't pay for them, and it can help you solve that problem. And fourthly, yes, while you're just saying it's, you know, I don't want to say it's like donating to a charity, but when you pull your money together with other like-minded people, it gives you the ability to affect social change in a way that you couldn't do on your own. And that's a really good way that I think people should think about union membership is that even if it's not giving you any benefits right now, it's still a way of pulling power in favor of good things............. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe. And, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. And, to, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to, to, to. And, the to, and, and, and, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the toe.s.s.s.s.s.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. And, things, of making good things happen in the world, in your local area, in the nation.

When people give their money, put their money in one place and start directing it, that's when it starts having an effect. And joining a union is a very simple way to do that. And you have a say of it where the money goes because a union is a democracy. If you don't like what they're they they just stand for election and tell them to stop it. It's not just like a mystery where it goes. You can look at a report, you know, and it's just a good way of making that change. So there I go, I guess would be some points to join the union if you're a contractor. Well, it's a very good stuff to know because, like I said, I'd kind of been working off very much the type of assumption you were talking about, which is, oh, well, I don't really have

any protections because I have signed a contract that says, you can terminate my contract at 24 hours notice, and I have no sick leave, and any of that sort of stuff, which, you know, I mean, people do know when they go into it, but it's not as though if offered like multiple choices, people would say, oh yeah, don't give me the job with the four weeks of leave. Don't give me the job with the sick leave and the care. Yeah, I don't want that. Don't give it. I think you're actually, it's flexible, Andrew. It's a flexibility, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, the, people, the, the, the, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. People, people, the th, th, th, the the th, th, th, th, th, th. th, th, th, th. th. th. People, th. People, th. People, th. People, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, thi. People, people, people, thi. People, people, people, people, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi, thi. People, th. People want that stuff. Don't give it. I think you're actually, it's flexible, Andrew. It's all about flexibility. And, you know, people just working when they want to work and not being locked down to anything.

You know, not being tied down by job. Flexible. You can negotiate a higher rate for yourself while having absolutely no idea what anyone else is. Exactly. And that's, you know, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that ti is tie is that that that thi is thi is thi is thi is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their is their is their is their is their is their is their their their thi is thi is thiiiiiiii. tooooooooooooooooooo. too. too. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi's, you know, that ties back into what I was saying before about generally upwards wage pressure in industry. It's really helpful if everyone is on board about what the correct rates are. And this is something the Media Alliance is particularly good for. I want to give a shout out to the Media Alliance. The Media Alliance represents tons of freelances because they're in the journalism space. And they have set freelance rates that they recommend everyone charge or hire, and that is a form of making the market work

for the workers by saying, you know, there is a flaw which we will not go below because it's unsustainable. Even if you are a freelancer, don't charge less than this because you're undercutting everyone else. And if everyone sticks to that, then it's good. But when people do under cut cut, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. th. th. they th is is they thi, they they they're they're thi. they're they're that, they're they're they're thateeeat, they're they're they're they're they're thateat, that, that, that, that, that,ting everyone else. And if everyone sticks to that, then it's good. But when people do undercut, then it becomes bad. But it's still an important function for the union to fulfill in that space and they're doing a good job of it. We've got another question here. I've got quite a few actually. So, I've got a question from a friend of the show, Chris did Donner, who asks, even when my union eviscerated an enterprise bargaining agreement that was trying to quietly stuff the

workforce in our company, we still couldn't get people to sign up. Getting people to care about the union is our biggest hurdle. How do we turn that around? That's a very good question. No one knows the answer to it. There are a lot of takes. Let me give you some of them. I've been in that situation and it sucks. One of the reasons it sucks is that non-union workers know that they're going to reap the benefits of the union hard work, even if they do nothing. There are a lot of union officers, I don't agree with this, but a lot of union officers believe this, that if you're not in the union, you should not get union rates. And what

that means is that if you haven't joined the union, you should get paid whatever the company feels like paying you. And if you join the union, you get paid the wage that the union is negotiated. A lot of people believe that's the way forward to increase union membership. I'm not so hot on that idea. I think it's unnecessarily divisive when really we want to be unifying the workforce. But I certainly appreciate the financial incentives of that position.

And that's one way to help combat that. Another thing I would say is that we always struggle with getting people to care about the union because they don't understand or they haven't really been educated on what it means to have the power to go beyond what the company is offering. They see the union as a policeman for the bosses, a cop. The union is a cop. That, a that, and a lot of the union as a policeman for the bosses, a cop. The union is a cop. A lot of people believe that. They believe that the union is basically just, you know, a Voltron you can call in when the boss is acting up. The union will slap them around and then disappear again, like a magic genie.

That is a, some unions have embraced that. I don't believe really in that one, but some unions have embraced it. That leads to people not really understanding that the union can do a lot more than just fix up a bad EBA, or fix up an underpayment, or take someone to court.

The union movement has to do a much better job, in my opinion, of communicating that when you have a lot of people in the workforce who are unionized, you can have incredible control in the workplace. You can set incredible wage rates. You can set incredible conditions. You can get leave and public holidays and stuff that you would never get without a lot of union members. And I can tell you for a fact that we have some sites at work with 85, 90% density.

Those sites are the best paid, have the best terms and conditions. They have the most days off, the least frantic production levels of any of our sites. And it's not corruption, you know, it's not the magic word corruption that achieved that. It's simply the fact that a bunch of people stood together and said, you know what, fuck you. We're not going to do what you ask us. And the boss said, how about you do it? And he said, okay, that's fine. We'll do it, have it your way. And that's something that the union movement needs to try and educate people about a bit more, is that sometimes there's been a focus on the union coming in to solve a problem

and then disappearing again. And it sounds kind of like that's what that scenario is hinting at. It's the union the union the union the union the union the union the union th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. thi, to to to to to to to to thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's thou. that's that's thi. thi. thi Union tore up this bad EBA, but then it's like, well, where do we go from here? And it really is about making people understand that it can be so much more than that. It can be so much more. It can really transform a workplace into somewhere that's practically nice to be than just a workplace which just isn't as shit as it could be. And I think that's a big change that I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would to to to to to to to to address to address to address to address to address to address to to that kind that to to to to to to to to to to that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's to that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's to that's that's to to that's to that's to that's a big change that I think would help to address that kind of mindset. Ben, do you have any questions? That's a great question.

I've just missed your voice. I've just missed your voice. Yeah, I feel like I talk too much and I'm sorry, Ben. Please never ever apologize for that. I think it's just mainly nothing is straight into my area of expertise, which, as I've said previously, is only recent, but it is cartoon babes with huge titties. Important areas of study. But if you've got any questions about those, for me, I can answer those. If you've got it. I'd be interested to know what you guys think of, when you think of unions, this is my

own personal education. But like when you guys think about unions and your experience with unions, because we're all roughly in the same age bracket and we're all a bunch of white dudes doing a podcast, we presumably have the same understanding of unions. So I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks about them. I think Ben and I've talked about this like previously, because I mean Ben came from like an IT kind of industry and I'm still still a developer and I think like among us, and not me specifically, but there's like this this theory that we're all captains of industry right we're all like way too smart to be in a union yes yeah and that like yeah we would be like the tall poppies cut down you know

and everyone and like programmer to a to a number believes this. Yeah. Like, unions are for blue collar workers and women. Now, that's not my personal belief, but I think that's like a lot of, what, you know, our industry kind of goes around. Yeah, my, I don't know how to come back. My experience was definitely that, largely programmers, at least, like, um, for you know, like, the, like, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, un, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like goes around. Yeah, my, I don't know how to come back. My experience was definitely that largely programmers at least viewed any failure to get like better working conditions or a better wage

as being a personal failing on that individual's behalf to not be a good enough developer. You know, like, there are people that just have shit programming jobs, but everybody else is the geniuses that were correctly found and they're the ones working out of the Amazon giant spheres or whatever and getting paid a million dollars to track the low-level wage workers that actually fund their salaries. There's an interesting segue to that though, which which is something I'm not sure if we touched on this ages ago but I think it's very easy for people in that type of industry where you have a relatively specialized skill in a relatively high wage area for people to be able to get even if they're not getting the best wage they could get

they're probably usually getting what they think of as a good wage or a high wage. But yeah, then you think about stuff like all of the political pushes, both in America and here of all of the kind of like, teach everyone how to code in school, like the Democrats are all about it in the states and labor are all about it here. They're all about saying teach kids to code in school. And apparently if you if you track that stuff back down they got a lot of money from companies like Silicon Valley companies the Democrats do to say push this whole thing of getting people to code in school and they get in the position it as it opens up this world of opportunity

for it but the reality is actually more like oh well if we just provide this to everybody from really early educational level we completely devalue this skill and we no longer have to take these ununionized workers and pay them monstrous salaries because they're the only people we can actually get to take these ununionized workers and pay the monstrous salaries because they're the only people we can actually get to do it. Instead, we flood the market with this skill, completely devalue it, and then we're going to have our way with all these workers. So yet again, it's something where they've managed to paint a very large corporation's you know, corporation CEO as being, you know, progressive and altruistic and everything.

But if you actually follow the motive for a second, you go, oh, they just don't want to actually have to pay any of you guys anything like this much money to do this job. That's the, I think that some, that kind of touches on something that the Wright and the anti-union movement have been really good at. And that is that they are really good at playing the long game. They're really good at it. They set up think tanks, they set up scholarships, you know, that they set up policy decisions. They're very good at thinking, 30, 40, 50 years ahead, and planning for that.

And the left, and by that I include the union movement, although there are some right-wing unions, you know, few and far between, but they do exist. The left have broadly always been reactionary in that way. And they always have to scramble to deal with it. And you know, like that kind of, frankly, almost social and eugenics thinking on the part of Amazon is extremely like indicative of the conservative business right, who think decades

in advance, you know, they're quite happy to prepare a workforce for 20 years down the track, because that's how long they can afford to think in. And the rest of us are scrabbling around trying to figure out why their Netflix subscription hasn't gone through this month. It's something that we need to figure out a better coping strategy for. Well, maybe part of that could just be always being in a union, not just when shit out of luck and need help. Well, some, there are different models of unionism. And in some countries, like in Brazil, for instance, you would automatically join the union for free. You just, you're already part of the union.

And if you want extra services from that union, you would have to pay a sliding scale of money, for example. But, you know, they used to be here in Australia, closed shops, you know, no ticket, no start, where you had to be in the union if you wanted to work. And of course that was smashed with the freedom of association laws many years ago. And now you, you know, you absolutely can't do that kind of thing and it would get you howled out of the Fair Work Commission if you were to even remotely imply that that union membership was a good-you thionionionionionionionionionionion thiiiiiuuuiuiuiuiuiuiuiuiui the the the the their site. Because the penalties are so severe that it's basically just, you know, the association that Danone speak its name.

So, I think we are just about out of time here. Which is a shame because we've got a lot more questions from listeners and other stuff that we wanted to cover. So Theo and I were saying we would really like to get you back on and do a part two of union stuff if you would be into that. Tim, absolutely. I talk about this stuff all the time, so why not do it in front of a microphone. I'd also love to chat about, so the way that I came to be familiar with you, Tim, was through an article you wrote for Polygon. Yes. You've written a few things on video games and this one was around smashing the myth

about Good Guy Valve and like, you know, what people actually paid, creat actually paid content creators in the industry and I'd highly recommend people to go and check that out as well because I think it has a cross-section of a number of things that people would be interested in. To touch on that like one of my personal goals and something that I'm hoping to really get the ball rolling on this year is is unionizing the Australian video game industry. That's where I come from. I'm a former game developer. And I, you know, the Australian games industry is in desperate need of anyone looking after any kind of wages at any time. And that's something that I'd really like to be a part of and, you know, to make happen in this country.. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the to the time. And that's something that I'd really like to be a part of and you know, to make happen in this country. And so yeah, that's my own personal goal is just to bring trade unionism

and video games together in Australia. And certainly it's something that I wish would happen faster in the US and the UK and Canada and stuff where they make all of our favorite video games because, you know, obviously I understand it's not the same as working in a coal mine or whatever but video game employees are horrifically treated and they're in desperate need of someone to protect them and hopefully you know that's the sort of thing that we can start getting the ball rolling on so yeah to touch on that that's the thing that I think is really cool and important and hopefully we'll see some movement on this year. Right, well that would be excellent. For now we'll leave you with a little plug, a little plug for the old Patreon if you like the show and you would like some bonus episodes and

content and all that kind of jazz. You can get it over to Patreon.com slash Buon-Vista. Also you can find us on Facebook and Twitter and Stitcher and all the apps, all the things that you like and listen to your podcast through. I mean, let's be real, you're listening to this one right now. You've probably got that part sorted. So we will say a huge thank you to Tim for joining us and like we said we would like to get you back and talk some more. Absolutely, love to. So thanks th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi to get you back and talk some more. Absolutely, love to.

So thanks very much for your time. Should we say follow Tim on Twitter at Bergerone? Yes, absolutely. Please do follow Tim on the. Please do follow Tim on Twitter. We will stick some of those details in there. If you've got questions for Tim about unions, get Adam on there, and I'm sure he will answer at least some of them. Several. I will probably redirect you to a much more knowledgeable source but I will do what I can but it'll still be helpful. All right so on that

note folks thank you very much and we'll see you all next week. Bye bye. Cheers. Bye! Cheers!