Boonta Vista - EPISODE 38: State Of The Unions Pt. 2 (Featuring @burgerdrome)

Episode Date: March 12, 2018

Tim is back for another round of talking about unions! Andrew, Lucy & Theo are talking to Tim about the Australian union movement and taking a whole lot of questions from our listeners about how to unionise, what's up with the SDA (and info about alternatives), co-ops and more. Many thanks to Tim for his time, and here are the links that he discusses during the show: - http://www.epi.org/publication/janus-and-fair-share-fees-the-organizations-financing-the-attack-on-unions-ability-to-represent-workers/ - https://www.democracyatwork.info/tags/economic_update Find your union here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join Support the show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista Don't forget to rate & subscribe on iTunes if that's your thing. _____________________________ Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Puerto Vista Socialist Club episode 38. I'm Andrew and we're back. We're back for volume 2 of Union Chat. I'm here on this beautiful International Women's Day with our beautiful international woman, Lucy. I'm not international, but I am here. Thank you for this beautiful International Women's Day with a beautiful international woman, Lucy. I'm not international, but I am here. Thank you for putting me, finally putting me first.

Well, it's, look, it's happened before. But you're right up there on the pedestal today, and then when it's not International Women's Day, I'm going to knock you right off there again. But for now, enjoy it. I'm enjoying it. Thank you. Thank you. Andrew. Good. We also have a beloved sweet Theo. Hey, it's very late. It's 9.40 p.m. But I'm doing it. I'm staying up for you, the fans. Speaking of chicks. Speaking of bitches. speaking of bitches. Excuse me. I'm sorry, I was very mean to me. She's doing a bit.

I'm doing a bit. I'm doing a bit. I don't mean it. I'm sorry. It's fine. And joining us again and probably, probably gunning for Matt Brady's crown as most appearances on the show guest, we have returning guest, Tim. Hi, Tim. Hi, how are you? Thanks having me on. Well, thank you for being here.

Well, thank you for being here. Thanks for coming back. You're welcome. I just want to add, uh, perform, you know, anyone puts this out there. I have a lot of respect for Matt Brady. He also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also also th. th. th. th. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to toe. thi. thi. thi. thi. to, the the to, the the to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. the lot of respect for Matt Brady. He also lives in Newcastle where I work every day so I don't want to get in trouble if Matt's lurking outside my office window. A lot of respect for you, Matt, you keep doing what you're doing. I love the content. Just keep it coming. Yeah, you don't want to say anything to tick him off and get sent one of those pictures of him with a face-app smile holding a knife. Absolutely not. But you would be able to like track his every movement.

Like you wouldn't get surprised by him because you'd be able to get all the like geo tags off every footpick he takes and just like plotted on Google Maps. I feel like you've like, you've like, you've like, save your protocol this and the rest of us are just kind of running around going like waiting for Matt to murder us and you're like I've clearly got a plan for this you know figured out how everyone transfer to me. So Tim Tim was on a couple of weeks ago and we talked about unn't talked about unions talk about the union movement talk about a lot of that kind of stuff

we took questions from listeners there was a lot of good stuff th-people people people people people people people people people th th people people people people th th th th th they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th th th th to to to to to to to to to thi to to to to took to to to thy to to thi to to thi thi to thi they they they they they th of that kind of stuff. We took questions from listeners. There was a lot of good stuff there. People said they really got a lot out of it. That it sort of answered some questions that they had, answered some questions they didn't know they had. And we've also had a whole bunch of people reach out to us after that show and let us know that that was the little kick in in the pants that they needed to go out and join the union which was really nice. Yeah. I'm just so proud of you all. Well done.

everyone who chipped in and you know signed up that's so good so well done to you guys it really is you know every little bit helps and by joining the the the fight and you know thank you so much to to the the the the the the the the the th you the th you the th you the the the the the their their their their their their their. their. their. their. to. to be. to be. to be. th. their. th. th. th. th. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. their. the their. their. the their. the. the. the. thean. thr. tean. tean. tean. te. te. te. te. te. together. the. the. the. the the Union you really are adding your strength to the fight and you know thank you so much everyone who did that. Yeah, it's extremely cool. Yes, it is always nice to actually see things happening out in the real world. Not a horrible world of online. So we didn't quite get through everybody's questions. There were multiple questions about some of the same things that we didn't quite get to toucet to tou in that hour. So yeah, we got Tim to come back. We got more questions.

We've got all that kind of stuff. Do you need to do any disclaims again, Tim? Yeah, I probably should just state for the record that these are all my personal opinions on this podcast and they don't represent that of the union that I'm employed by and If anyone is under any confusion, I'm not an official spokesperson for the union here in an extremely personal capacity And thank you very much for that. Oh, he was he was winking the whole time he did that I was I was I'm winking into the microphone, but I can't see the soundbars picking it up. The soundbars don't move when I do my air quotes. Well, you've got to get a better microphone, clearly. It's true.

So, oh, let's kick it off with a non-question from a dear sweet wife of the show, Tal Waterhouse, who says, no question this time, just stopping by to say gooday and thanks for all the great content on point and click bait, Tim. Oh, thanks, Tal. Appreciate it very much. You're a great guy. Do you want to tell people what point and click on? to tell the today to tell me if you like it? No. No, no, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th. No, I th. No, I th. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's a. It's a th. It's a that. It's a that. It's a that. It's a that. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the great. the great. the great. the great. the great. the great. the great. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's a th. It's a th. It's a th. It's a th. It's a great. It's a t. It's a great. to. to. toda. to. to. today. to. to. to. today. to. about video games. I encourage you all to read it.

I also encourage you all to tell me if you like it and if you don't like it, keep it to yourself. I enjoyed the far cry article the other day. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're also a good person. Oh, thank you. So, oh, we've got a little question here about the action that's been going on overseas in the states. For anybody who hasn't been following along with that one, teachers in West Virginia have been doing a lot of grassroots organizing around striking for better pay. It's been very good to watch. And yeah, I suppose what's sort of notable about that one as well is that, you know, some people might look at it and say, oh, these

teachers who already get holidays and that kind of thing, striking for even more money. But the reality is that they are effectively striking to try and keep themselves out of poverty at this point. Very much so. They're striking in a very real way to keep the union, the concept of unionism alive in West Virginia and in a very real way across the US. Yeah, so it's a huge deal. It seems like it's been inspiring some similar movements in other states, which is great to see. Yeah, if you get into some of the details of it, it's terrible. It's about, I think they were offered a really minor pay rise, except that as I said, they couldn't accept it because the pay rise equaled out to, I think it was like, like you know an additional sort of $80 a fortnight but their health insurance was going up by $300 a month. Yep yep yep very similar stuff you know to the two

Australia where employers say you know he's a 1% pay rise and we say the cost of living went up 2.1% and they say do you want your pay rise or not? I say no. But of course if you if your employer offers you a pay rise of 1% and the cost of living went up 2% you're actually losing money. So of course you should go on strike and look you know there are two things I would say about the West Virginia teacher strike. One is that it fucking owns. It's so cool to see all these teachers going on strike. I think all all 50-something counties are on strike now, which is incredible. And it's incredible because they actually did it against the wishes of the union leadership, which is actually super cool. You'd think because I'm a union

officer, I'd be like, no, that sucks. It actually owns. And the reason it owns is because you want workers to be doing that. You want workers to be driving the decisions. You want the people who are involved at the coal face on the floor. They should be making all the decisions. And if they say that pay isn't good enough, then it's not good enough. End of story. And I'm not going to bag out the teachers, or whatever. I don't know enough about their. And I'm not. And I'm not the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be involved. their to be involved. to be involved. to be involved. to be involved. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their their. their their their their their their their their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. toea. their their their them, but it is very cool to me that these teachers said, no, that's actually not good enough, and the union leadership had just scrambled to catch up, and to kind of retrospectively say, oh yeah, striking, good idea, we should do that. And that's so cool. The second thing, the second thing which I think is probably even cooler

is that it really demonstrates that the spirit of, you know, grassroots organizing and worker activism is alive and well in a time when it's probably never been more under attack. It's really, you know, the fact that all the counties are now striking really just highlights to me, you know, and hopefully to others that the real power in society still lies with the working me, you know, and hopefully to others, that the real power in society still lies with the working class, you know, like the working class can still say fuck you and walk away and the whole country shuts down, at least in this case on an educational level, like good like getting your kids to school in West Virginia. And you know, you can imagine, you can extrapolate from that, that this can easily be applied to any other part of society. If if th, if th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the, the, the, the the the the thi, just just just just just just just just just just just thr-just, thr-just, thr-just, thr-a, thr-just, thr-a. thr-justi. thr-justi. their, their, their, thi from that that this can easily be applied to any other part of society. If we don't like it we can shut it down. We have that

power but we're just conditioned not to use it. And so it's really inspiring to me that these teachers have just done that and that they've just done it essentially off their own back and just decided this is a right thing to do and they're all supporting each other and there is incredible solidarity there and energy and I'm just really, you know, hats off to them. If any of them are listening for some reason, I salute you fucking, you're a legend. Can I just take that point of like, you know, if there's something about society that's injust or what have you, you know, this may be the only way to kind of get it changed. And like so I was really the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi they they they they they they they they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to to to to thi to to thus. thus. thus. thus. thus. thus. thus. the an they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they the interview with the Chappo guys with one of the strike leaders. And it was really interesting and they had a very holistic approach to what the strike

was the reasons, reasons why they're doing it and the reasons why it came about. And you know, I think they said West Virginia, you know on average that the teachers are amongst the poorest in the country. But they also said that this is, this is, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and it was thi, and it was thi, and it was thi, it was th, it was th, it was th, and it was thi, and it was thi, and it was thi, and it was thi, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, it, it, it thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, it was thi thi, it was thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the teachers are amongst the poorest in the country. But they also said that this is almost exactly balanced against very recent tax breaks that they gave to the oil and gas industry, even though they didn't need them. They weren't going anywhere, but they were still giving, extended the tax breaks that they were giving to them and they were basically saying, no, you need to pay us and you need to go and reverse those tax breaks and do, and pay us directly with that money because that's what the right thing to do is. I kind of look at the situation we have in Australia where, the, their, thank, them, them them them them them them them they they they they they that money because that's that's what the right thing

to do is. I kind of look at the situation we have in Australia where we've we've watched the carbon tax be shot down a thing by all accounts that was doing an okay job to reduce emissions as well as provide revenue. And you know it's probably just one example, but I think a lot of those sorts of things are going to start to add up where we are just letting the resources industries walk all over us. And do you see more space in Australia for that kind of action? 100% 100% and I note with delight that former ACT your boss Tim Lyons actually released a paper today as part of the pro-capital policy

institute basically saying in an abridged version break the fucking law you know if you're not getting what you want break the fucking law until you get it and you know that's like that's a sort of thing that obviously makes like monocals pop off everywhere but that's what the fucking law until you get it. And that's like that's the sort of thing that obviously makes monocles pop off everywhere, but that's what the union movement has been doing for centuries. And we've, you know, in Australia at least, we've kind of forgotten how to do that. And I've seen Sally McMannis as well. I've got a lot of time for Sally advocating exactly the same thing, saying, if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, if laws, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thean, the the the the the the the the the the the the union, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, the union, the union, the the union, the the the the same thing, saying, you know, if laws are unjust, then it's okay to break them. And there's no better description of Australia's workplace laws than the word unjust.

And so I'm very heartened by that, and I see a great parallel to what's going on in Australia, and I would love, I would love to see more illegal strikes, you know, I would love to see more illegal industrial action. You know, I can't tell you how excited.. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. the thi thi the thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the their, thi, thi, thi, thea, their their their their their their work, their, their, their, their work, their work, their work, their work, their work their work their work their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, that, that, that, that, thr thra, throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooes,tell you how excited it makes me the idea of just, you know, everyone just walking off the job and saying no, sorry, we're not, we're not doing it anymore. And like, you know, that's, there's a great chapter in, um, in capitalist realism, which I think is free if anyone hasn't read it, but, it's called, what if we held a protest and everybody came. And it's just a really succinct kind of explanation of like how amazing and powerful would be if just you actually had a protest and everyone showed up and society just shut down.

You know and you can just imagine how quickly we would get changes if we started doing that sort of thing on mass. And we've done it in the past and I certainly believe we can do it again. And I'm really excited by what they're doing in West Virginia and by what the noises with him from the union movement here in Australia, the union member leadership who would never propose these things 10, 20 years ago. Now they're out there saying, hey maybe we should break the law. That's incredible. That's amazing. Well, one of the points that Tim was making in an interview that I saw with him today was that he wasn't saying exactly what Sally McManus was saying in the context of, you know, if laws are unjust, you're sort of obliged to break them.

So much as he was saying that the way that industrial labor laws and stuff have been changed in Australia over the last 20, 10 or 20 years has effectively made it impossible to legally take that. Absolutely, yeah. And the strikes over, you know, the transit strikes in Sydney were a good example of that where they said, hey this is what we're going to do, we'll let you know and everything. And Fairwork came in and said, oh actually you're not allowed to. Yeah. We've, you know, we've ruled that if you strike, it'll be too much of a disruption. It'll be too effective. Almost as though, that's the entire fucking point of a strike. But yeah, essentially that those laws have had so much stuff added to them to just cripple,

the legality of taking that sort of action. They have. I don't think a lot of people are really aware of how hard it is to strike in Australia. And look, I wasn't until a couple of years ago when I first joined, like I had no idea, I assumed, because, you know, if you read the paper, the narrative is very much that you can just go on strike whenever you want. And, and you know know they bloody well do these union thugs but the reality is that the number of of men hours lost sorry women hours it's international women's day the number of women hours lost to strikes has declined like catastrophically every year for like the last 20 years in Australia to the point where it's basically nothing at the moment and you know

that's because it is so abysmally hard to strike in Australia to the point where it's basically nothing at the moment. And you know, that's because it is so abysmally hard to strike in Australia. Just to give you a quick overview, you can only strike during a bargaining period, and you can only strike if you can demonstrate that you've been trying to bargain with your employer and you haven't got anywhere, and you can only strike then if you apply to the Fair Work Commission for the right to strike and you tell them exactly what kind of actions you're planning to take when you do strike. And even then the employer can appeal to it and say, no, this would be too disruptive, no, this would cost me too much money, that kind of stuff.

Then you have to argue with get given the right to strike for 90 days and if you don't strike you in those 90 days passes you have to go back and apply again. And you can only apply in any case once you've got a majority of votes from your members and it has to represent a majority of the members so you have to get 50% plus one. And then the employer can argue with you over the method by which you ran that vote so they could say th th th th th th th th th they th they they they they they they they they they th they they th th say th say th say th th say th say th th th th th say th th tho to tho to to to to thi thi to to to to to to the the to the the the thi thi thi thi the the the the thi the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to to thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thee. thi. thi thi. the. the. the 50% plus one. And then the employer can argue with you over the method by which you ran that vote so they could say, we prefer a postal vote, which of course they love because people never read their mail, right? They love a postal vote.

And you can say, actually, we'd prefer an in-person vote, and they can say, oh, oh, if you have that in the lunchroom, it'll be too disruptive. And the fair commission's like, hmm, yes, disruptive. Fascinating. Postal vote it is. And then, you know, the postal vote comes around three weeks past and two people have filled out their letter and sent it back and you don't get the numbers to strike. And well, their number of that permission, you risk personal fines as well as fines to the union. And the personal fines can be like $10,000 or more.

So it's really good at making people not want to strike. Well, it makes me think of like a parallel to protesting as well, where it seems like now in major cities protests are all all have to be organized in such a way that you have to like apply for a permit to protest in a particular place at a particular time and you have to tell the police how many people that are going to be there so that they know how many cops to have turn up and stand around you in a circle and you know how many horses to bring and all that sort of shit and and how long you gonna be there and to finish up and the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their that sort of shit. And how long are you going to be there? And then you have to finish up and fuck off at a particular time and everything.

And in both cases, they, you know, it's very, very clearly things where they've put this framework, they've put this scaffolding around an action which in and of itself, by design, is intended to be both spontaneous and disruptive. Exactly. Because the whole point is that employers, employers aren't, they are supposed to be relatively taken by surprise by this stuff. Or in the case of other strikes that are centered on workplace safety. Like, yeah, yeah, you can't.

If you're working on the floor somewhere, if you're working on a shop somewhere and you're saying to your employer, there is a situation over here and if you don't fix it, somebody's going to get killed and they go, ah, we'll get to get back to work. You know, should you, should you have the right to be able to say everyone's just going to stop until you fix this, or someone or someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone or someone or someone someone someone or someone or someone or someone or someone or someone or someone or someone someone or someone someone someone someone or someone someone is to someone's going to get injured or die or should you have to wait for these very specific conditions in which you're allowed to protest? I will say that I believe anyone should be able to go and strike at any time for any reason, particularly sympathy strikes, which are incredibly powerful tool, which is why they got outlawed. But I will add on the health and safety aspect that a lot of workers aren't where they can actually apply to become health and safety

representatives on their work site. And you can do this any site whether you're in office or whether you're on a factory floor, it doesn't matter. This is a process that the union can help you through. But when you become a health and safety rep, which is an elected position, so you have to actually stand for a tiny vote and a bunch of them say, yeah, this guy, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thrown. thr-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thr-s, thr. thrc I, thrc I's, thrc. thro. thro. thro. thro. throa-s. throa-s. throa-s. thro. throwne. thr. them say yeah this guy be a good health and safety rep or nah he's terrible but when you have that position you actually have a bunch of powers under law to be able to order everyone to stop working if something's unsafe and you can do that without being fired you can do that without any fear from your boss as long as you're acting in accordance with that legislation which is quite easy to do it like for example if there's you know there's been there's been there's been there's there's there's there's there's the the their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to be a to to to thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. the th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. thoooooooooooo. the the. the. thoooooooooooo. to to to to the. is quite easy to do it. Like, for example, if there's, you know, there's been times when there was a chlorine gas leak at a chicken plant a couple of years back, and our health and safety reps just said,

everyone get out, everyone get out now, and they evacuated the whole plant. And they can do that because they have that power to say this is an unsafe situation, and I'm using my power to order everyone to stop working. And anyone can do this in any environment. Like if you're in an office and, you know, like you see something sparking or you see an electrical fire happening, you can order everyone out. And as long as you're doing it, exercising your powers correctly as a health and safety representative, you can't be touched for it. There are massive penalties for interfering with health and safety rep who's doing the job. But a lot of people don't th th th don't wish to you know make it public knowledge. But if you are part of a union another great benefit to being part of a union is you can get them to walk you through that process legally and make it nice and safe and they can give you union approved training and you know get time off, paid time off for work to go to the training and that kind thi and th and th and of control over your workplace that you might not have had before. You can also do things like if you see unsafe machinery

that's not immediately lethal, you can put what's called a pin notice on it, which is a redundant acronym, but it stands for provisional improvement notice, notice. And this is basically a legal document which says, you need to fix this and if you don't then fair work will be along within a week to order you to fix it and if you still don't fix it then you'll get a massive fine and so that's and this is something a trained health and

safety rep can do so that there are a lot of ways that you can kind of use health and safety legislation to take control of your workplace and and the union you can help you do that. And I certainly encourage anyone listening to step up and become a H.S.R. for their workplace because it does put you in a position where you can say, no, we're not doing that, or you know, I require a consultation on this issue and that kind of stuff. And it's just a really good way of pushing back a bit against that kind of tyranny in everyday workplace. That's good to know. I am going to drag you all the way back to the West Virginia subject,

though, for a question from a friend of the show, Ankelburn, who asks, Considering the strikes happening in West Virginia at the moment, are we moving toward a landscape less focused on union membership and more focused on grassroots organization. In the case of West Virginia, everything seems to be coordinated constantly on a Facebook group as opposed to weekly meetings obeying a traditional hierarchy of representation answering to each other democratically instead of to one union leader. A difficult question. Certainly I feel that yes, we are seeing a lot of things organized on Facebook, and I

think that's good. But I don't think it's going to be the way forward for the union movement as a whole. I think the union movement should definitely use Facebook to get its message out. But in terms of grassroots organizing, that's something that has to happen offline. That's something that has to happen in the workplace. It has to happen in homes, in pubs, in restaurants, in secretive meetings between shifts, you know, in the cleaning room, it has to happen in the workplace. And if we're going to rely on on digital organizing, it doesn't have the same results in terms of building a support network.

It's very useful and I certainly encourage everyone to use it to keep in toucest, but my personal belief is that it will never be a substitute for real grassroots organizing. It's definitely, I think the old hierarchical method of having a quote unquote union boss and the union boss tells you what's up and you just agree, that's on the way out. I definitely agree that's on the way out and I think the West Virginia strike is a great example of that. And certainly the union bosses I know hate that. You know, they don't want that that's they want the workers to be fired up and telling them what to do. The last thing they want their one is for everyone to be looking like they're dead and they just want to be fired up and angry and shouting at them. Is it like a worthwhile distinction to make that if you're talking about, for example,

like teachers in West Virginia, then you're talking about people that are spread out across the entire state, so you know, however many teachers in however many schools all across the entire state state and people are using, you know, so you're talking about relative geographic remoteness from each other and everything as well, as opposed to say if you're talking about other industries where you would potentially have hundreds of workers on a site who would all be able to get together for meetings about things and you know actually be able to have that physical proximity to each other as well. That's true. That's true. Maybe that might be

why people like that would be more prone to organizing remotely like that? I think so. I think that's a very good point and I think you know I certainly don't have any experience organizing in the teachers area. I want a good friend friend th an inter-U delegate and you know it's certainly a very different environment to what I'm used to organizing in. And look, yeah, I think Facebook is useful for bridging that geographical gap, but what I would say at the end of the day is that you're going to need teachers to go and band together and they have been showing up in public together and stuff like that. And it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when it's when th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's thi. thi. It's thi. It's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. together and they have been showing up in public together and stuff like that. But it's when they show up in public together and they really bring that physical force on mass to a location. That's when they get the media coverage. That's when they get the results. That's when they're able to block physically block access to buildings. And that's where you can't be ignored. And certainly you should use Facebook to organize that. Although, you know, increasingly I feel like big social media are going to become

hostile to industrial activity due to pressure from government and from police. But I think you should use Facebook to organize that, but I think the end result of any organization should be getting people together in one location to use their people power on mass to physically demonstrate that they can't be ignored. Oh, I'm having a little spark in my brain just now of remembering, so there were like a handful of people who were protesting during Donald Trump's inauguration. Like obviously there were a lot of people protesting, but there were, there were, there were, there were, there were, their, the the their, they they they they the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th.. th. th. th. their, th. th. they they they they they they they they th. They they th. That, they they they they they they they that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that they that they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, physically, their, physically, physically, their, they they they were, physically, they were, their, physically their, physically th. the, physically that, that, they that, they theuration, like obviously there were a lot of people protesting, but there were people who got arrested, and I'm pretty sure that the cops wound up requesting that Facebook give them access to

these people's messages that they exchanged in a private Facebook group in which they had organized the protest. These were the people who would like organize the whole thing and told everybody where to go and when and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And the cops were then using that as part of their trial for these protesters. So it is probably worth pointing out that at the end of the day Facebook is not your friend, Twitter is not your friend, all those companies will sell you the fuck out to the government in a second. They will throw you onto the bus. And you know, I think we've got to be aware of that, like especially how hostile these tech giants are to unionizing inside their own companies.

Yeah, true. You know, they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they know, they're not our friends. I did want to point, summing out before we move away from the West Virginia strike, and that is to say there's a really good article, if with your indulgence, Andrew you can put it, perhaps in the show notes, but it's from the Economic Policy Institute, and it's about the fair share fees that the union movement is actually fighting over. If anyone's interested in not only a really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really the the the the th. th. the th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th... th. th. th. th. th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they's, they's, they're, they're, they're, they're they're they're they're the. We's, thi. We're thi. We're thi. It's, good overview of what, of the base, the very real existential threat the US Union movement is facing, but also where all the money to fund these cases is coming from, this article is just a really good, like, it's done a really good job tracking back all the money and you can see that, you know, the same dozen conservative and libertarian think tanks have basically been funding all these court cases over the years to slowly and surely destroy the

union movement. It's very worth reading and I'll pass you the link later and you can perhaps put in the show notes. I will definitely do that. So we have another question here which is on a theme that we've received multiple questions about but we didn't get into last time you were on. So, friend of the show, T-B-R, which I'm choosing to interpret as T-BRA, because it's, you know, a bit of a HTML joke there maybe. Very, very Andrew, maybe.

And they say, hey, online, which is a disconcerting way to refer to us collectively. I was motivated to look into unionizing by that episode. Good news. But my tergid, throbbing bone for workers' rights, deflated when I found out I was best covered by the SDA. Now, could you, could you just tell us what the SDA stands for? Sure so the SDA is the shop and distributive alliance I'm pretty sure I get that right but the important point is the SDA is the union for retail work

in Australia. The SDA is the largest union in Australia on paper that is an important point to note they have 200,000 members or more than that and which makes them by any is the largest union in Australia on paper. That is an important point to note. They have 200,000 members, or more than that, and which makes them, by anyone's measure, the largest union in Australia. Their questions are, why are the shopies so bad? Are they deliberately evil as they seem or merely inept? Is there an alternative for the humble hospice that doesn't involve throwing money into a bin fire. How can the SDA redeem themselves? Can they be redeemed? Please, rekindle my hope to join the workers' paradise.

It feels like a Dorothy Dixer question. Is the minister aware of any alternative policies? Well yes I am, T-break. Thank you very much. First thing I would say is yes there is an alternative. And it's called the Retail and Fast Food Workers Union or Refaffew. I encourage you to look it up, IRA-FWU. Great. Yeah, it is a great name. And the Raffoo was basically created in direct opposition to the SDA by disgruntled former SDA workers who had been ripped off and abused by the SDA and who wanted actual representation at work. Why is the SDA so reviled? The answer is because the SDA doesn't do any of the things a union should do, and in fact

does the opposite. A union should be an aggressive defender of workers' rights. The SDA instead has signed cozy deals with coals and Woolworths and McDonald's and other retail chains and basically there's nothing to defend its workers. The SDA, sorry, a union should be aggressively fighting for better pay. The SDA actually signs deals which reduce workers pay to the point where they are overturned by the Fair Work Commission for being illegal. In very famous case the SDA stitchedthey are overturned by the Fairwork Commission for being illegal.

In a very famous case, the SDA stitched up a deal with Coles. That deal was later ruled two years later to be illegal by the Fairwork Commission, after several Coles employees, but most notably a trolley operator in Queensland called Duncan Hart, took that because they're party to the agreement, they were able to file a dispute for it in the Fair Work Commission and they were able to prove quite conclusively that this deal actually left the huge swathe of the workforce worse off and if they were just on the minimum wage. And so that's sort of work that the SDA does. They knew that the deal would leave people worse off. That's very important to understand here.

They admitted that in court. They knew it. And they were forced to repeal the deal. And it was overturned. And now legally speaking, that deal never existed. It never existed, never came in before. So it was completely repealed. And all the other, like places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places places, like places, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, so it was completely repealed. And all the other places like Warworths and stuff are watching very closely to see what

happens next with Coles. But certainly I can also tell you from my own personal experience that the union that I work for, the Meatworkers Union, we also represent Cole's butchers, and we asked the SDA to leave the butchers alone because they could also claim coverage of these butchutches, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because the the butches, because the butches, because, because, because, because, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, the, the, the, thiiii, thi, thi, wo, woes, woosuiiiii, woosuiwoosk, woes, woes, woes, woes, woes, woes, woes, toea, their, the SDA to leave the butchers alone because they could also claim coverage of these budgers because they work in the grocery stores. The SDA said of course we'll leave them alone, not a problem. They've been yours for decades, we won't toucest them. And then of course they turned around it exactly the opposite of that. And they signed a deal with calls that covered the butchers and basically stole them from the b – the b, the poaching is the term you would use inside a union movement. They poached our workers and in doing so they gave all future Coles Butchers and they gave all future Coles buchers an enormous pay cut that we calculated to be anywhere up to

$15,000 a year. So previously Coles buchers were on. Please stop going on strike. They were the the SDA they they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were very they were very they were very they were very they were very they were very they were very they were very they were very th. th. th. th. they were very th. th. they were very they were very they were very their their their their their their their their work. their work. their work. their work. their work. They their work. They their work. They their work. They their work. They were their work. They were very their work. They were very their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. They were very th. They were very th. They were very th th th th thooooooooooooooooo. th th th th thoooooooooooo. They were their the and Coles had to come back and say, okay, you can have fantastic rates if you want, please stop going on strike. And then the SDA came in and they gave them frankly appalling rates, which amounted to a huge pay cut. And again, the Meatworkers Union has been very angry about that. And we are very vocally criticized and attacked the S.A. their officers, even protesting outside the SJ on a number of occasions, even protesting outside their offices, because we were convinced that this deal had to be illegal, and we were very happy and vindicated to find out it was several years later.

It's not a great look as a union workers' funds into campaigns to have other unions. No, it's not a good look. It's also not a good look to be out there, you know, funneling your union workers' funds into campaigns against marriage equality, which is something else the SDA does. So like, I think last time on the podcast we talked about how there was some right-wing unions where they were few and far between. The SDA is one of them. Politically speaking, the SDA is very right-wing. They back the right-wing, labor faction. They are very conservative on political issues like marriage equality and they pour all their money into stuff like that. Even though they represent a workforce which is overwhelmingly young people

and overwhelmingly women, the sort of people who would be very interested in voting for marriage equality, statistically speaking, they pour their money into fighting against it. They really are a very shocking union and they don't do the stuff that a union should do. Like they've never gone on strike. Yeah, the idea of Coles workers going on strike or whatever is it's just never going to happen because they're not that kind of union. They're very much about keeping their membership high by being cozy with Coles and Woolworths Like, you know, Coles and Ballworths actually go out there and say, here's the union, feel free to join. You never get that. You know, that's wrong. That should not happen. The boss should never say, here's the union. I love the union, please

join the union. That should never happen if the union's doing its job, right? And, but... Well, yeah, I found I found myself thinking when you were saying for that a union should be an antagonist to the employer. I mean the interests are mutually exclusive. You know, they want to keep their money so they can have a higher profit and the union wants to take their money because it belongs to the workers like those two cannot be reconciled. But the SDA doesn't doesn't do that. And you know, like, they are, I I I I, I, I, the. I, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they're. the they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. I. I. I. I. I. they. they. I. they. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. they're. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I they're. I the. I the. I th. I th. I te. I try. I try. I try. th. th. th. the. the. the the the their. their. I they they are I mean there's a reason that senior figures in the liberal government call the SDA the very model of a trade union and and like that's that's why. So that's a very short overview of the SDA and certainly anyone who is interested in you know being covered by a different union I would encourage them to check out the retail and fast food workers union because they are doing some incredible work. They have actually, they're like a ferocious attack dog in the Fairwood Commission. They have been applying to tear up a number of horrible agreements.

They destroy the Domino's agreement for Domino's drivers. They are now a party on Woolworths and Coles negotiations. And they've just been absolutely muscling their way into the scene and their membership is super affordable and I really encourage able to check it out. The one thing I would say and this is kind of important but kind of not is that the retail and fast food workers union is technically not a union. It's not registered with the Council of Trade Unions. It's not what's called a registered organization under the Act. That means it doesn't have some of the same powers as unions. It can represent you legally and it can represent you during bargaining, but a retail and fast food workers union can't, for example, mussel its way into a work site under right of entry legislation and say,

no, can't keep me out, Gov. They can't do that because they're not formally a union and only those rules only apply to unions. Whereas the SDA is formally a union under the law, but they just don't take advantage of those things because they have such a cozy relationship with the bosses. So that's something to be aware of. I don't think it changes what I really encourage everyone to join because they're doing an incredible job. And they're really they're really, yeah I just can't speak highly enough of the retail and fast food workers union, they're doing an incredible job and they very strongly come out and said we won't be treading on any other unions turf even though they have significant overlap but they refuse to do it because they respect those boundaries. There they go folks, join the RAFW and tear up your SDA membership. Oh the other question was can the R. Can't. the R. the R. the R. the R. the R. the R. the the R. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the R. R. R. R. R. R. R. R. R. R. R. S. R. S. S. S. R. S. R. R. S. S. S. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. t. I. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. I. I. I. I. t. I. I. I. I. I. t. I. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. I. t. I. I. I. I do want to say if there are any SDA members listening, that there are a lot of young SDA members who are really angry and really progressive and very upset at the conservative leadership of their union, and they're doing some good stuff internally to try and tear that down.

And so, you know, shout out to those guys. I know they exist. I've met some of them at conferences and I think they're on the right track, but you know, the problem is that the leadership of the SDA has really has a strangle hold on things and they've been there for a long time. And you know, it's going to take a significant concern. They're going to have to be leave it out like. So we got another question here. Friend of the show, Chris De Donner, asks, well he says, I'm looking forward to hearing what Burger Drome, that's Tim, everybody, on Twitter, has turned up as far as workers' co-ops go,

and Connor Stokes' wife of the show. M-uh-muh, m-mah-mah-mah, says that he too is looking forward to that. We did thue-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-wee-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-mine-s, that that that that that that that that that that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that-mue-mue-mue-mue-mue-mue-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n'-n't that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that-s, that that. We did very briefly touch on this when going through letters in a previous show, except that our answer pretty much extended to us saying, we think they're good, wherever you can involve employees, they're still good.

Get in on it. But we would like to know if you have a more nuanced take on how you feel about worker co-ops. Is that the ideal state of workplaces? I think it's as close to an ideal as we can imagine in the current vocabulary we have under capitalism. And I think what I mean by that is that we might get a better idea in the future. But right now, I think it's a very accessible goal. The reason that I think worker co-op is so exciting is because it's a way of combating the alienation that we all feel about our work.

We don't own the products of our work. We're not involved in the decision making. We don't have any say in what's made, tho made, where it's made, who it's sold to, what they do with it, yet we have to go there every day, make products add value to a company and then leave again. We're alienated from the products about labor. That's the Marxist terminology. And worker co-ops are hugely different because it's, you make those decisions, you decide what to make, you decide when to make it, you, the, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to too, who to to to their, who their, who their, who their, their, their, their, their, their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho, thoooooooooooooooooooomeckecklea, tooomecklea, tooombea, tooome when to make it you decide how much to make you decide what to sell it for and you get the profits at the end of the day because you're splitting it evenly with everyone else I've been if anyone's interested in worker co-ops I would encourage you to check out one particular podcast which is called

Economic Update it's a extremely US based, but it's by Professor Richard Wolf, who is a Marxist economics professor in the US. He is extremely cool dude. It's pretty dry stuff, but it's very, very compelling and really informative. And Wolf heads up what's called the Democracy at Work collective and they quite literally are about democratizing the workplace and so often this broadcast has a lot of guests on it who talk about their experience in starting co-ops or their experience in managing co-ops or developing software for co-ops and that kind of stuff. So that's been really informative for me in shaping how I think about co-ops

and I certainly I encourage anyone to check that out. I'll send you some links and you can pop them in the show notes if you like, but really good stuff and it's out every week and it's just really, really good. There's something interesting, this show actually had an interview with the developer of this software on over. but there's some software called Lumio, which is really cool. And it's basically open source, like co-op management software about decision making across a collective and scaling up across lots of people, and providing everyone with a really easy way to raise issues and discuss issues and resolve them and vote for them, run out of your own cooperative. And that's something I've been reading a lot about lately and thinking that's like a really cool way forward because

you know it's a kind of emerging of the best of our workplace, which is the best of our latest technology, which is distributed decision-making. I think it's super cool. So that's some stuff about co-ops that's been on my mind lately. There's not a lot of good resources out there for how to turn your workplace into a co-op or how to start a co-op. That's, I've seen some in the US, but I think the Australian co-op movement is still a bit in getting off the ground.

But I think, you know, definitely that's something I've been on the on the lookout for is, you know, more information on that and I think more and more like capitalists will be wanting to fund co-ops in the future because I think that's a bad idea like just to be clear, I don't think capital should be funding anything but I think it's very easy to convince people to hand you to than you the to-up because you have all the skills you just need a bit of money to get off the ground and that's very different to you know when you're a large company you say I have a lot of money but I don't have any skills you know a bank can easily see a way forward there to help you out and I think we'll be seeing more banks lending towards co-ops and stuff like that in the future and I think that's very cool. It's funny that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that's funny that's funny that you that you that's funny that's funny that's funny that that's funny that's funny that that's funny that that's that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th th th th th th th th th th th th th. thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the thi the the the the the the the the the the the throoo. thrue the throooooo. thi thi. thi thi thi thi th you say that because the last time you were on, one of the things that we talked about was the really low rate of unionization in like particularly in sort of tech fields and like video game developers, startups, that kind of thing. And it did make me wonder when we

were talking about this recently, it might have even been when we got that question on a previous show, about whether or not any of those sorts of workplaces like startups and small game dev studios and that sort of thing, because the sort of stereotypical picture of those workplaces is, you know, relatively small, you know, probably less than 15 people. And more often than not people kind of being asked to, um, people being asked to, you know, probably less than 15 people. And more often than not, people kind of being asked to, people being asked to, you know, work hard and put a lot of themselves into a job in the hopes that they can create success together collectively.

But more often than not, that's all kind of, you know, they'll have one one person who's funded the business, or they've got some backing from someone financially and then they bring people along and don't pay them that much and kind of ask them to put a lot of heart and soul into a thing in the hopes that they'll get successful and then all share in the profit and the sharing the profit part generally doesn't happen. But yeah, it makes me wonder if that kind of workplace could potentially be quite you know ripe for that sort of that sort of action or

that sort of conversion even if it is in the in the form that you're talking about of it being funded by a bank or by someone else like getting the funding from somewhere else as opposed to it having to come from you you know like the rich guy yeah the rich guy who is the boss of your studio exactly whether or not it's it would be more reasonable to kind of get together a group of say game devs or web developers or whatever and say hey we have all the skills here to do this thing if we get a bit of backing we can do it

like that organize it to make decisions collectively, share profits, that kind of stuff? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think the democracy angle is a really good angle when you're talking to the tech crowd because broadly speaking, the tech crowd lean, like kind of libertarian or liberal and a really good way of kind of encouraging union discussion among that is to point out how undemocratic the workplace is. Because, you know, like we discussed on the last episode, like people in that kind of crowd think they're the captains of industry and they're just waiting around to get the perfect opportunity to get their own startup off the ground and make a million dollars. But when you really broach that subject of how the workplace is fundamental, you know, to, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work is the work is the work, the work, the work the work the work, the work the work is the work, the work is the work, the work is the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work the work the work place the work place the work place, the work place, the work place, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, the work, to get their own startup off the ground and make a million dollars. But when you really broach that subject of how the workplace is fundamentally a tyranny

and they don't have any control, that's kind of shocking to them to hear it voiced in that way. And I think it's because they value that control so highly, the co-op is a really good way of saying, you know, like, this is how you can get involved. This speaks to the principles that you believe so strongly in freedom of expression, you know, freedom of choice, you know, the best, if you want the best you can have in a workplace, then you need to get on board with this. And I believe that the democracy angle is a really good one for breaking into that sort of crowd and none I've had success with that in the past. Well, I mean, we've only got to look at the examples of like the sort of tech crowd trying to, every couple of years someone will try to, someone will try to, you know, do the tech startup treatment of voting.

Everyone should vote. Oh, yeah. thrown. thrown. thi Oh, thi Oh, that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their their. their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. tea. tea. tea. teck. teck. teck. teck. teck. te. te. te. te. worked with this type of person in the past I'm willing to bet that you maybe have encountered people in your workplaces who Are constantly bitching about the way things are happening in their workplace because some dumb manager made a decision? When them and several other developers know that really the right way to do this thing or to build this thing would be X or Y. Well wouldn't you know that I have just that experience? I mean I think everyone everyone definitely has. I don't think that's special to to tech as well. I mean you go, um, what's the law that everyone's eventually promoted to the level of their incompetence? So Peter principle? Peter principle?

So you know, everyone knows that it's not a meritocracy. So yeah, I mean, I think this is definitely a good way to sell it. With tech people particularly, just tell them the co-op votes are on the blockchain. They'll fucking eat that shit up uncritically. Oh God, yes. Oh dear. All right, we have another question here. Now there has been a very large merger of trade unions in Australia very, very recently. Hasn't it? Between, so a friend of the show, Travis Jordan, writes, what is the reason behind TCFUA joining the CFMEU slash MUA merger?

And not merging with the AMWU, which seems like a more natural sector ally? Could you please, for the benefit of our listeners, just break down these various unions for a second, the TFCF UA? That's the textiles clothing footwear and I don't remember Alliance. United United. Sorry, the people who make the James Bond films. Joining. The James Bond directors and CFMU and the MUA emerging. And frankly it's a match made in heaven and I can't wait to see what they do. I can't wait to see what the executors of Albert Broccoli's estate do with these textile factories. Joining the CFMU. That's the Construction, Forest mining and energy union. And the MUA. That's the maritime union of Australia.

And not merging with the AMWU. Which is the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. Which seems like a more natural sector ally to the TZFUA. According to Travis, well Travis, I have no fucking clue is the answer. They don't keep me up to date on their business and frankly they're not obliged to the TZFUA, according to Travis. Well, Travis, I have no fucking clue, is the answer. They don't keep me up to date on their business, and frankly, they're not obliged to. No, look, the CFMU has had some overlap with textiles for a while.

They have a textile division. They do, the CFMU is already an amalgamation of a lot of unions. The CFMU is the Catamari ball of unions. It has rolled downhill over the years and picked up a lot of other unions in its wake, and that's why they have been as powerful and strong as they are, also because they're insanely militant and they don't take anyone's shit, and I have a lot of respect for that. But that is why they've chosen they've their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tooomania, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their thanananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananolu, ta, ta, ta, t is why they've chosen to hook up with the CFMU is because they have an existing relationship, basically. That's my understanding of it. If anyone out there from those two unions knows differently, I'm probably wrong. It's it's not my area of expertise, but I do believe that the CFMU has some existing coverage in that area, so that's why they've hooked up. As to why the CFMUMU and M M M M M M M M M M MUMUMUMU and MU and MUMUMUMUMUMU and MUMUMUMU and MUMU. And the MU. And the MU. And the CU. And the CU. I I I the CU. I th, th, th. I th. I th. th. I'm thus, thus, thus, tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I I I I I is th. I is th. I is th. I is th. I is th. I is th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm to to to to to to to to to to toee. I'm toea. I'm toea. I'm toea. I'm to the. I'm the. I'm the.U and the MUA have hooked up, that is, I think that is mostly a merger

of the fact that they are two Australia's largest remaining unions, and they see strategic value in joining together. And, you know, ultimately the FIWOA had to approve that because the liberals are unable to get laws passed stopping them. They tried, but didn't work. Now, Travis submitted what can only be described as a shitload of questions but we do not quite have time to get through. Can I answer a question? Can I answer a question? Yeah which?

That I have completely uninformed on? Just throwing one at me. Oh okay. Um, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Throw me a very specific question, and I'll do my best. Here we go. Number three. Hell yeah. Oh, number three of these, what, what sort of events should trade halls be running to engage younger peoples and general activists in union activities? Um, swing's parties. Next question. That's going to say gamer streams. They could do game streams.

They could do land parties, game stream. Swingers parties mixed with land parties. Yeah, it's true. Now you're talking. I agree with all of this, absolutely. Now you can throw this over to Tim. I just wanted to contribute. No, Lucy, look, you're doing a great job and frankly I'm happy to step back and let

you feel all these questions. Just a little women take the mic. Stand up and step back, men. So, well, what I want to do is just throw you one more question, but then leave you a couple of the end to run us through a little bit of process. Yes, sorry my solo number. So let's let's knock this one off nice and quick from friend of the show Tim Bennett. Hey Tim how you doing? Good thanks. A lot of Tim's, too many Tim's. Tim says in the past, unions have achieved

annual leave, maternity leave, overtime, pay, and uniform allowances among many other things. What is next for unions? Broader inclusion of domestic violence leave? Yes, actually it's extremely is. The ACTU is running the We Won't Wait campaign, which is calling for the addition of 10 days domestic violence leave to the national employment standards, which will make it law and make it impossible for you to get rid of it or reduce it in any contracts at your workplace. That's super fucking cool. I hugely agree with that, and I think domestic violence leave is definitely one of the next battlefronts for the union movement as a whole. Very proud to say that we achieved three days paid domestic violence leave on a recent contract that we negotiated at an ice cream factory we represent.

That was a huge win. That was very popular. That was a joint operation with the AMW, the Manufacturing Workers Union, who also have coverage in the area. And together we pushed very hard for three days of domestic violence leave and we got it. So very cool. As to what. the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, thi thee thee thee thee thee thee thee thee thi thi thee thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee thee thee thee thee thee thee thee the, the, the, th, th. th, the, the, the, the, thee thee thee thee thee thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the next the next the next thenenen. then. thena thena thena thenaxena. thena. the next, together we pushed very hard for three days at a domestic violence leave and we got it. So very cool. As to what's next for the union movement as a whole, my personal hope for the union movement is to draw inspiration from what I'm seeing in Germany at the moment, which is just briefly,

Germany's largest metal working union, IG metal. I can't remember if that's the correct pronunciation, because I, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, the, -Metal, I can't remember if that's the correct pronunciation because I'm not German, but they've been running a campaign to reduce the working week to 28 hours. Hell yeah. And that is fucking amazing. And the reason they're able to do that is because they have so many members, you know, they have so many, like unionization in Germany and Europe is off the chart compared to here.......... th. th. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's correct that's that's that's the correct correct correct correct correct correct correct correct correct correct the correct correct the correct correct the correct the correct correct correct the correct the correct the correct the correct correct the correct the correct th. that's that's the correct that's that's that's that's that's that is because they have so many members. You know, they have so many, like, unionization in Germany and Europe is off the chart compared to here. They have so many members that they're able to say, and then the economy is so good as well, that they're able to say to employers, look, we want to be able to, we want to make it the law that our workers be allowed to drop back to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28 to 28, to 20 to 20 to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiii. thii. they are their their their their, their, their, their, the drop back to 28 hours a week or 20 hours a week or I can't remember the exact number, but I believe it was 28.

And they should not be affected adversely for that. And they should be allowed to do that for, I think, two years if they want to, and you have to keep them employed. And that is, like, yes, holy shit, yes. Like, that's so fucking good. You know, just like, the idea that that union has got to the point that this IG-Metile union has so many members and so much power that it's got to the point, it is saying, listen, you deserve 10 more hours to yourself a week because you're a human being and you have basic needs and dignity. You deserve that time and society will function without you being a wage slave for 10 more hours. Like, wow, that's so cool. That's that, and that, and that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that's, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that's, like, and we will protect you while you make that transition.

Like, wow, that's so cool. That genuinely makes me just so excited. And so that's the sort of thing I want to see, or that I hope to see from the union movement in Australia and from the world is to get to the point where we're able to push back and say, actually, I'm a human being with a finite lifespan and I don't want to spend 40 hours a week at your workplace making profit for you. I actually deserve time for myself to spend my family, to have hobbies, to take care of my animals, to whatever it is you want to do, but you deserve that time because you're human being and you have rights. and so that's super exciting to me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me to me to me to me to me to me thiiiiiii th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and I thi, I thi. I thi. And I thi. And I to to thi. And I thi. And I thi. And I thi. And I thi. And I thi. And I th. And I to th. And I to th. And I th. And I I th. And I th. And I th. And I I th. And I th. And I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thin. I thin. But you deserve that time because you're human being and you have rights.

And so that's super exciting to me to see that kind of stuff. So that's what I hope is next for the union movement. But I think the domestic violence leave is incredible and a great start. Well, similarly to that line, they just passed a law in South Korea, changing what was their commonly accepted working week of to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like their their their to like their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. Iaunxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx..................... their their their their their their their their their their their their to like. I. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. Ia. toe. toe. theire. theire. their. their. toe. toe. Ia. Ia. their commonly accepted working week of 68 hours to a legally mandated maximum of 52. I didn't know about that. That's astonishing. 68 hours.

Yeah, no, apparently they just have an insane post 80s, 90s boom. They just had an insane like workaholic culture. And collectively as a country they've said, hey, it turns out everybody's work life balance is completely fucked and it's really bad for everybody. So let's chop a bunch off that. So I hope they keep going in that direction. Yeah.

Absolutely. Wow. So the last thing we wanted to just get you to quickly run us through is just the brief outline of if you are in your workplace and you do want to unionize, how does one go about that? Great question, Andrew. Thank you for asking. So yeah, look, this advice is pretty Australian specific, first of all, but if you're in another country, the process will be

pretty much identical with just some different names and obviously check with your union. But let's say that you're in a workplace and you're on the award rate which is the minimum legal rate for your industry and you've had enough, you're sick of it, you want to change it and the next step is to figure out how. So first off join your union which presumably you've done because that's the next step is to figure out how. So first off, join your union, which presumably you've done because that's the starting point of any particular unionization. But what you're aiming to do is establish what's called an enterprise bargaining agreement for your site, and that covers all of the people at your site and that establishes that you have to be paid more than

the award and it also establishes all sorts of nice terms and conditions that essentially can be whatever you like as long as you and the employer agree to them. And the way that you go about getting that is by joining the union and then signing up more and more people inside your workplace. Ideally you want to be looking at about 50% of the workplace. That's a strong number. That's a good starting point. If you got less than 50% you can start, but really you want to be getting about the 50% critical masses when you start to wield majority power and you can make the favorite commission do what you want. So once you have enough members, you go to your boss, and you say, look, I want to start bargaining for an agreement for this work site. And the boss is two options. If it's a smart boss, they'll say, sure, sounds great. If it's. If it's. If it's. If it's. If it's. the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the their. their. the their. the the the their. their. th. thi. their. their. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. So, the their. So, their. So, the the their. So, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. So. So. the the the their. the their. their. the the the their. the the that. that that that that that tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. So. So. So. So. So. So, they'll say, sure, sounds great. If it's a boss who doesn't give a shit and it's very hostile, they say, nope, and you say, okay. And if the boss says, yes, that's great, you begin bargaining, you form a committee, you get

the union in to advise you on what you can and can't do, you sign off on the agreement, the agreement, the avenue of what's called a majority support determination. And what this is is essentially just saying, hey, fair work commission, we want to bargain but the boss says we can't. But look, there's a majority of us who want to bargain, so can you please force them to bargain by law? Thank you very much. And in order to do that, it's kind of a long drawn out process, but that's why it why it's important to get the union involved because there's a lot of paperwork and you have to do it right. But basically, you all sign a petition, you submitted to the Fair Work Commission, and the Fairwork Commission reviews the signatures and says, okay, yes, this, I agree that a majority

of workers want to bargain. And just for your, for clarification, a majority in this case means 50 percent plus, and the the the the the to the the to their, to their, their, their, their, their, their, to their, their, to, their, their, to, their, to, to, to be, to be, to be, their, their, to be, to be, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be to be to be their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their faiwereeoulureweree., toe.e.e.e.e. We's, their their 50% plus one. And they say, OK, I'm now going to force the employer to bargain me. I'm going to give legally binding orders saying they have to bargain with you. And that will force the employer to sit down and begin bargaining with you, and you can actually start having that discussion. That doesn't mean you're guaranteed a result because bargaining. that the first step. Once you're actually in that bargaining process, then you have the power to do things like go on strike and that kind of stuff, which you can't do until you're formally in

that bargaining process. That's why it's so important in Australia to have that. But what I'm essentially saying is, if you want to unionii is their is it, is, is, is, is, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. thrown, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th, the, th, the power, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the power, th, the, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thrown. And, thrown. And, throwne, and, and, throwne. thro. throooooooo. throoooo. And, thro. And, throwne, throwne, own. I mean, that's the basic tentative unionism, isn't it? You can't do it on your own. So you need to start recruiting other people. And when you have about that 50% critical mass, which, you know, if you're doing all that recruiting on your own, the union organizer will love you forever, when you get about that 50% critical mass, that's when you can start really trying to agitate ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag agitate, the agitate, the agitate, the agitate, the agitate, their, their, their, to agitate, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thirty, their, their, thirty, thirty, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to their, to their, to recruit, their, to to their, thirty, to to thirty, to, to, to, to, to thr-a. thr-a. thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, will allow you to bargain and usually that will involve much better rates than what you're being paid. That will involve extra days off, that kind of stuff. It's all the stuff that you can put in. Like if you think of something you'd like at your workplace, you can just throw it in there and the employer can agree to it say worse than the minimum wage. So you can put in whatever you like in there and it will be legally binding. But you won't get it unless you have the numbers on the ground to pull it off.

And that's why it's so important that if you want to unionize your work site, you have to start by recruiting other people to join the union and inviting the union can come in, you know, like if they know you want there, if they know that there's a movement at the site activity, they'll be there because they'll know that that's, you know, a place where the action is happening. But once you start getting that about that 50% number, you can really start to make things happen at your work site. So there you go about transitioning from individual contracts or some kind of award rate to a really good bargaining agreement that covers your entire site. It's all about, you know, grassroots organizing, getting those numbers, and then using those numbers to force the employer to bargain with you so you can get what you want. And go and check out your award as well.

I think a lot of people aren't actually may not be familiar with what their award is, what it actually gives you. Yeah. Because I know for, for, you know, my case at one point, they had to negotiate not paying me overtime because I was getting paid X percent above the award and you might go, well, actually no, I think that puts me in a worse position like old mate, the trolley worker did in the in the Coles case. So it's not it's not that hard, it's not I would say they're not very confusing documents and it would be worthwhile ever I'm reading them. Yeah all the awards are freely available on the Fair Work Commission website so you can just

google and if you're not sure what industry you're in, you know then then you can the the the the the the the the the the the the the the Fair Work Commission website so you can just Google and if you're not sure what industry you're in, you know, then you can really ask your union to help you and figure out what the right thing is. But it's generally pretty easy to figure out. So the way it works in Australia is that if you're in a specific industry you you're covered by the national employment standards, which is the very minimum wage. That's the worst tier of Australian wages. But most people are on an award rate. And then if you're on an individual contract, then that's better, but it's still bad because you want to be on a collective contract so you have that collective strength.

And oh, and how do you find out what union you should be joining? So you take a smooth stone and you take it to the edge of the lake and you throw it in and you offer a prayer and someone will come out of the lake and whisper the name of your union to you. Or you can go to Australian unions. to do the the Unions. You just have a look at the lake thing. It works every time. So, do the Lake thing first use the website as a fallback. Yeah. So that brings us to the end of our show. Thank you very much again Tim for joining us. You're very welcome. Thank you having me. smart person on the show that knows things. I'm really not very smart. I'm just a dumb idiot, former game developer who fell into this job and is now just angry all the time.

I'm really, there are some really intelligent people that they're in the union movement and it does me a disservice to label me with that. But thank you. You're the smartest one on here. So yeah, you can catch Tim on Twitter at Burger Drome. So if you have additional questions, harass him, harass him endlessly. If you have, yeah, if you have weird, weird questions, weird unsettling questions, send those to Theo. He loves them. And if you, if you want any extra bonus episodes, for example, we just label to label to Theo. He loves them. And if you if you want any extra bonus episodes, for example we just recorded a bonus episode in which we have answered a bunch of relationship questions from Reddit. If you would like to catch

that this week, head on over to Patreon. Patreon. Patreon. to Com. Slia. Some bonus material. Or hey if you want to sling us a few bucks just to support the show just to send us those legible kisses. you to thos thos thos thos thus thus tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the the the the the the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho to to to to tho. to to to tho. to to tho. to to thooo. to to thoooo. to tho. to sling us a few bucks, just to support the show, just to send us those legible kisses. You can do that too. And that is it. That is it for us, everybody. Thanks very much for joining us.

And we'll see everybody next week. Bye-bye. Thank you. Cheers. you to be