Boonta Vista - EPISODE 77: Publicly Funded Holes

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

Andrew, Theo and Ben are attempting to make sense of Australia's new anti-encryption laws. We're also trying to figure out which podcasts have gone to podcast heaven, and reiterate our staunch anti-backpack-on-public-transport position. Support the show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Merchandise now available: boontavista.com/merchandise *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

I read poetry and sonnets and he plays the upright bass. Yeah, me keep yeb, said, arrefebo, and on Latin, he quoth. You jay, suffice, array! Well, he bit all the he-dogs and winked at all the she-dogs. The town never knew such a hull-a-blue as that little dog raised till the end of that day. We just have a good rhythm together, you know? He sort of feels me out, I feel him out, and we go for it. Welcome to Buntavista. I am Andrew.

This episode 77. All Good Podcasts Go to Heaven? Podcast Heaven? Yeah, yeah, that's true. I've heard that. What are some podcasts that are in podcast heaven. What a heard that. What are some podcasts there in podcast heaven? What a podcast that have died? Oh, didn't, um, was the legal podcast that died recently? The one with the hell dude on it?

Not McDictor? Yeah. Yep. Is it dead? Yes. I don't even started listening to it. Yep. There was some kind of strange implosion and one of the members of the podcast got mad at the other ones, took over the Twitter account, locked everybody out and blocked all. Oh hell yeah. It's a great bit of Twitter drama. So who's going to do the mutiny on our podcast? Oh, I mean you're the only one that actually has access to the Twitter account Andrew so. Yeah and the Patrotheon. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the th. th. the th. the th. the th. Who th. Who's the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. th. th. th. th. th. tode. toda. today. today. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the the the the the account Andrew so. Oh yeah, and the Patrion. And just everything. Just everything. I don't even know how to use the app that we used to record it.

No. Well, one of you was going to have to come to my house and like stay with me for an extended period of time and be like, oh hey, I just wanted to get a little insight into the production process. I'm just going to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th th th th th. thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi only thi thi. I thi thi thi only their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. I th. I just just just just just just just. I just. I just just just. I just just. I just. I just. I just thea. I just. I just. I just. I just. I just want. I just. I just. I just. I just want. I just. I just. I just. I just want. I just want. I just want. I just want the. I just want th process. It's going to be frankly more effort than any of you are willing to go to it. I think I'm far too nervous for mutiny. Too nervous for espionage. I'm imagining Theo. Yeah, doing like a James Bond type thing, sauntering up to the bar, asking for a martini. You take a sip and immediately just sort of dribble it back into the glass.

You accidentally breathe it in. Too dry. Leave back to the bar. You reach, you reached for the, you reach for the toothpick with the olives and knock the glass over, spilling it all over a lady's dress. Oh. I'm so, you're going to have to do that like Mr. Bean type of espionage where you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're gonna have to do that like Mr Bean type of espionage where you know you spilled all over the lady and like totally sorry, I take you back to your room, you can you get changed, all that kind of thing.

Ben, I don't know how good you would be at espionage. I mean, I'm just not a very motivated person. I think is probably my biggest obstacle to being good at anything. Yeah. I was, I was talking to a guy recently who had been applying for a job at like ASEO, which for our overseas listeners is one of our intelligence. They're the fucking spooks, man. The spooks, the feds, the, the CIA or whatever. And he was telling me about the feds, the CIA or whatever. And he was telling me about the process because he, you know, he did all kinds of programming type stuff.

And he was like, well it's basically for one of those like hacker type roles. And he said, yeah, man, all the questions they ask you though, you know, I got invited to apply for this thing, but I don't know how much of the stuff I want to go through. Because ask all these questions, like, what kind of porn do you jack it to? And do you cheat on your wife? And all that sort of stuff. And of course, as I'm sure plenty of people are aware, the point isn't that they're interested in exactly how freaky, you are online. The point point is is is is is tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thin, like thi, like thi, like thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like tho th th th th th th th th th th thin, like thi thi thi, like thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that thi. that thi. that thttha thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. point is that, A, they can probably find this stuff out

and figure out if you're lying. And B, that they basically just want to know if there are things that you can be blackmailed with into providing information to other people. And if anybody else is like me, they started thinking immediately that prospect of having to like, just sitting down in a room with somebody and describing what it is that you look at on the internet. So look, you're going to want to block out an hour here, guys. Yeah, yeah, I like to start

slow, all right? I generally start off, looking at some catalogs, maybe the swimwear section of like a target. And then I like to bump it up one notch. Just hours, hours. It goes on. That's just your version of tantric masturbation. It takes you like six hours to even get your pants off. That's right, you're 40 minutes into describing the process and you're like, and then I undo

the next loop of my belt, right? You taking the whole belt off? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd like to treat myself. Hey, speaking of, speaking of holes, the country's intelligence agencies. Speaking of holes, Andrew. Yes. We've got some other...

We usually love to talk about the other kind of holes on this show, but today we're talking security holes. Actually, I'll tell you what, I'm going to put a pause on this. Very good segue, by the way, Theo. We could have just gone the obvious ASEA thing, but you know. Well, let's... I'm I I I I I I I I I I I I I I thua I thua I'm tha tha. I'm tha. I'll tha. I'll tha. I'll thu. I'll tha. I'll thu. I'm to pause to pause to pause to pause to pause to pause to pause tho tho. I'll to pause. I'm tho tho tho tho tho tho. I'm tho. I'm going tho. I'm going tho. I'll tho. I'll tho. I'll tho. I'll tho. I'll tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tha. tha. to to to to to to ta. ta. toa. toa. ta. to. tell. too. Wea. tell. tha. tell. tha. I'm gonna I'm gonna pause this for a second because I think that we are about to leave another kind of hole a major plot hole by not addressing what that is that we played at the start of the show no I think that's fine let's move on from you completely forgotten completely forgotten and we we just wanted to note Lucy's absence from the show this week she is unable to record with us due to her many housemates in the place that she is staying in Hawaii,

currently throwing a sea shanty party in which everybody comes around and gets very drunk and sings sea shanties. And I would like to stress very much that this is real. It is absolutely a real thing. So Lucy forwarded on a clip for us to play on the show in her absence that really captures what Lucy is all about and that is being Kim Katral in what looks like I guess maybe the mid to late 90s, probably prime sex in the city sort of era, doing some kind of interview where she is describing her great relationship with her husband and showing off... Now ex-husband. Oh really? Yeah. Showing off the great synchronicity that she shares with her now ex-husband by standing next to him while he plays an upright

bass and then she does some jazz scat in Latin, apparently. Which you know... Oh, it's splattin. Which as I noted to the guys as soon as that was sent through, yes, this is how all marriages are kept together. That's how me and my wife like to end every day. We put the kids to bed, I break out the upright base. We just scat about how things went that day you know if you got some some deep-seated issues that you need to work out with your partner no better way

to do it I feel like through the medium of scat the person that's on the double base doesn't really have a chance to express their feelings it's doing it through he's expressing himself tho th oh oh th oh th oh th oh the th oh the th oh the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho. tho. tho. tho. I tho. I tho. I's tho. I'm thi. thi. I'm thrown. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th is is is is is is th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the is is the is the is the is the is the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thee. thee. theeee. thee. the. the. the. the is, wow, I'm so sorry. He's expressing himself through the notes he's not playing. And those are the most important ones I've heard. You get your hands on that polished teak and it really all starts to flow out. Is that what they make? Really start to speak for your soul. I'm curious. If you happen to be a double bass and upright base manufacturer,

if you happen to hone any instruments yourself, hue them from various types of wood, please contact the show. I don't know. Yeah, if you'd like to sponsor the show with a double bass, Andrew's address is. Oh, well, please, please write to Theo atonto Vista.com and tell him how wrong he was about what types of wood. A double-based construction. This is please, I love being told how wrong I am. This is a double-base related anecdote, not necessarily about their construction. We had a family friend of ours passed away a little while ago, but he ran, I believe at the time it was Australia's only exclusively double-base shop and he made double bases for a

living like that was his whole thing. And in around 1990... How long did this shop stay open for? Pretty long time, until he passed away basically. In either 1998 or 1999, he had Lawrence Fishburn come in while the Matrix was being filmed and buy a double bass from him as a gift for Keanu Reeves. Yeah, they were like, oh man, I need to get him something. Oh, there's a double bass shop. And I think Kianu the only personthe, like, in the world that you can

think of, like, just him playing the double bass and just like nodding going, yeah, this is nice. Like, good for him. Yeah, good for him. He's just having fun. Everyone else, total freak. Yeah. Perfectly normal for him to do it. Keanu Reeves related anecdote. The like official IPA pronunciation guide for his

name in his Wikipedia article has it as Keanu. Yeah it's probably would it be either like Hawaiian or like Native American or something? It's a very broad guess I couldn't tell you I didn't look like him and his brother had like extremely hippie parents didn't they? Yeah. Why? Sorry, not his brother. I'm thinking of bloody River Phoenix, who is not his brother at all. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Get enough track here, folks. Speaking of double bases, who remembers the Australian band, The Living End? Remember how that guy would stand up on top of his double base with his stupid bowling shoes? Yeah, it was really cool. Super cool. It was really, really cool. My distinct memory of The Living End was that was that their big hit was about like, you know, shut up teachers. Oh, prisoner of society.

I feel like I was probably like in high school or something. And their big hit was about like, you know, shut up, teachers. Oh, prisoner of society. Prisoner of society. We don't need no one to tell us what to do. I talked back to my teachers, they say. And I looked it up and they were like 30, when that song came out. I was like, your teacher should not be telling you thto do. You're a 30-year-old man, Chris Cheney. It, I can't, whatever year that song came out,

the primary school that I was at at the time, there was like a talent contest, just before the Christmas break every year. And me and like two of my friends did ours, we just mimed along to that song. That's that's it that's it that's it the their their their their their theto that song. That's it. There was no dance component. It was just us singing it and I think one of us might have thrown a textbook dramatically during one of the lines of the song. What a wonderful thought. I was only 17, no, it's definitely not. And I was in my last year of university here. And that was last year and I won't look back. When did that come out?

1990, oh, so I was like eight. So I think I'm probably fine. What year did it come out? 98. Yeah, so I was in year 10. Oh, what's different lives we've led? Speaking of holes. No, but.

Speaking of holes, Theo. I understand the theo has taken on the, the heady task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, task, tas, tas, tasks, tasks,, I understand the theo has taken on the heady task of trying to explain the massive, extended, amazing clusterfuck that took place this week as the Australian government tried to pass like an anti-encryption bill? Yeah, I mean kind of and that's sort of how we've known it, right? Where I think for quite a while now we've been gearing ourselves up for the concept of an anti-encryption bill. You know, even when Malcolm Turnbull was still Prime Minister, he was he was talking about the I guess the genesis of this bill where and that's where the sort of quote where you know the laws of mathematics are all well

and good but you know it's the law of Australia that prevails in in Australia and all this kind of garbage. So everyone's sort of... Take that mathematics? Yeah, that's right. And so everyone's like gearing up for this like 2 plus 2 equals 5 sort of battle to be like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I, I, I, I guess, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, the, thi, thi, thi, the the, the, I guess, the, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, Ithat mathematics. Yeah, that's right. And so everyone's like gearing up for this like 2 plus 2 equals 5 sort of battle to be like you can't just break encryption and all this sort of stuff. But what has come out is not that, I would say. So that's the first thing that I would say. This is not an anti-encryption bill where we've seen in like the UK recently a telecom bill with the with the purpose of breaking encryption right but you know as lots and lots of people noted you can't just break encryption via political will right well and I

also feel like it's very much an Australia's nature to just lazily say it's way too hard to break it. Yeah we yeah we try it for like two three weeks yeah we've got you know we've got you know. we've got you know. You the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. too hard to break it. Yeah we you know we tried for like two three weeks. Yeah we've got you know the guys down in IT you got Dave and Greg and they've been working really hard on this but you know Greg's long service leaves coming up and we just weren't able to swing it right so this is not not like an anti-encryption bill, basically, even though we've been talking about it. It is an assistance and access act, according to them.

But what it basically is, is that we will look to change software or telecommunication systems to capture data that we can as it comes through. So instead of, you know, we're not going to, I don't believe that we'll be, you know, we certainly won't be breaking like AES encryption or whatever, right? So we won't be breaking encryption algorithms. Encryption systems or systems that use encryption, like Messenger or WhatsApp or what have you, that's a bit shadowier, but where I think the bulk of it will be is in stuff like, we will put a thing on your phone that will take screenshots every 10 seconds, right?

We will log your keys, all that sort of stuff. So I think that's like, that's important to frame. While we've kind of been talking about anti-encryption, this is not anti-encryption, right? This is a spyware bill. And that's all there is to, I think, as far as that goes technically. We're not going to break AES, it's not going to break your bank communications where we're talking to, you know, you've got your browser, it's open to nab, it says it's got the nab padlock, and there's someone in between listening.

I don't think that that sort of thing will happen. What will happen is worse in that everything will be broken as far if you're targeted by this bill because they will just do the easier things, which is just take take, is just take your keys, take photos of your desktop, whatever we can do to get the documents that are on your desktop, all that kind of deal. So... I was going to say so, yeah, a huge part of this is basically just about saying it's easier to just compel by law one of these companies to turn over your information.

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. And turn it over via a technical, like a feature in the software, right, which is where the sort of three things that they come in talked about, where they've got a technical access request which is for making requests of communication providers which says, hey can you help us out? Like just anything you'd like to do, right? A technical assistance notice, which means that they'll compel them to provide assistance, if it's actually physically able to happen, and a capability notice, which is where they say, look, in the future we want to be able to do this, can you build it out

for us? The second two, I believe, have a golden rule that says they can't build in a systemic weakness or a backdoor, right? This is where we're talking about back doors where it's going to be like, well, you can jump in and get this if you've got the, if you've got the key, right? But the bill fails to define what a systemic weakness is. So it doesn't actually say. And this is where, sort of the communique, where the, where the, where the, where the, where the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they-s, they-s, theymea, they-s, can can can can't, they-s, the, the, the, the systemic weakness is, so it doesn't actually say. And this is where everybody in IT, everyone in like the, you know, the privacy organizations, the EFF, Mozilla and all this sort of stuff are going, well, anything that you put in is a back door, right? Like if you can put something into this and then get the information out, right? That's a back door. That's literally what- That is now a channel, that's-that's, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, put something into this and then get the information out, right, that's a backdoor. That's literally what...

That is now a channel that that information can pass through. That's exactly right. That like this is not, this is where we've just run into like this totally other kind of impasse where, let's say, well, you know, what you're describing is a back door and it can just get out of your hands right like if you go well you know we want to put this in this software but you know to do this we need to roll it out to everybody or what have you and but it's okay we've got the password well you know this this shit's gotten away from the NSA to the NSA to the the same to the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the too. toe. the th which you know was based allegedly on like an NSA backdoor which you know inflicted billions of dollars of damages to businesses and that sort of thing right like so if the NSA can't hold on to this stuff we can't right like it's it's just that simple we cannot build safe back doors we're very very stupid. But like the the privacy groups are most concerned I think. Um thi, thi, it's just, it's just, it's just that's just just just just just just just just that's just just just just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that simple that's just that simple that's just that simple that's just that simple that's just that simple that's just that simple that's that simple that simple. that's just that simple. We's that simple. We can't that simple. We can't that simple. We can't that simple. We can't that simple. We can't that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that simple that's just that's just that's that's that simple. We can't that's just that simple. We's just that simple. We's just that's just that simple. We's just that simple. that's just that simple. But like, the privacy groups are most concerned,

I think, about the access request, which doesn't have those, those safeties in it. Where it's basically, they just ask, if the business on the other end is like some, you know, a sympathetic ear, and they go, oh yeah, yeah, no, no, it sounds good to spy on these people. They can just do whatever they want as far as I understand. Like there's very little around it to make them say, well, no, like, you know, you could do whatever you want, but not this.

It's like, just put it in and that's fine. Well, and so much of the time, I I I I I I I I thime thime thime thime thime thime thime, I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi. that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that is just just just just just just just just just just just just just thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thee. thea. thea. thea. thea. they they they thea. they they they they they they they they they they they think in terms of like businesses the sympathetic ear really comes down to you know do we want to just turn over some data on a customer who will potentially just never even know that we did it or do we want to be on the wrong side of the government. Yeah that's right a hundred percent. And I would imagine that the choice is very easy for a lot of those people in that sense I mean yeah it's the same way that like that like that like that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. te. te. te. te. te. te. tea. te. tea. te. te. te. try. te. tha. the. the the the those people in that sense. I mean, yeah, it's the same way that like, yeah, I don't know, do people really think that like Facebook isn't happily just turning over information to police when they ask for it, whenever they ask for it? Yeah, and then it becomes sort of like, this is where, I guess, like the financial implication start to kind of get nutted out, where people go, well, no, we th, and we th, and we th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I don't tho, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do th, do th, do, do, do, do th, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, they's, their, their, their, their, tho, thooo, thoo, tho, tho, tho, tho, start to kind of get nutted out where people go well no we won't go on Facebook Messenger right we'll go on WhatsApp and we'll go on an iPhone.

What's app are not going to put as far as I understand politically they're not going to put a backdoor in their software for the Australian government and um if the FBI can't compel Apple to turn over secure enclave details for the mass shooting in America that happened, you know, what, three years ago, whatever that was, right? Then the Australian government's not going to be able to do the same thing, right? So what would become... I think you're underestimating the strong negotiating powers of assistant minister for cyber security, Gooch. Look, he's very busy at the moment, nutting out his fourth divorce.

Things aren't so good. So, like, what happens to these companies? Do they just not bother with the Australian market anymore? Already, like if you go to theto the privacy statement on Apple's Australian website, the very last sentence I believe, and look, I may be getting misled here, it's just a screenshot on Twitter, so apologies if I'm very gullible, but is that, you know, their software will not contain backdoors for a particular market. And so what happens then? Do these companies just disappear in Australia?

It's very, very shady. Like Cisco again, like Cisco is a big communications player, all of the backbone of our networks and stuff work on Cisco's system. So if you want to target something in between, you know, the government may want to compel Cisco to provide this sort of backdoor. But they won't do it. They've already said that they won't do it. But I would have thought that if anybody was, I guess, more, well, yeah, it's tricky, isn't

it? Because, like, a company like Facebook, they are so ubiquitous, they are so ubiquitous, they're so ubiquitous, they're so ubiquitous that they can just say, fuck you, we're not putting it in. What are you going to do? And, you know, do we, does anybody really think that the Australian government is going to say, we're going to block access for Facebook to everyone inside Australia? Like we're China, you know. That may be what they need to do to finally lose the boomer vote.

And the same thing goes for like... Where am I going to get my pictures from? From my picture. Yeah, so there's companies like that. And like Apple, same thing. You know, Apple, Apple has the most liquid cash on the planet. You think they're going to say, oh, we'd better do, better fuck, better fuck, better fuck, better fuck, better fuck, better fuck up, better better do, better fuck up our whole operation for the Australian government. For a place that's like smaller than some single cities in the world.

But it does make me wonder if companies like, you know, the IBM's and the Cisco's and the Microsoft's and stuff like that that would have very extensive government contracts in Australia could maybe you know find themselves over a bit more of a barrel in the sense of saying oh well you know if we can't count on you to hold up our security interests and stuff or help us out with some sort of solution in this area that we want then we'll just have to start not renewing you know these. But again it's the kind of thing that makes you go, like, so what, what are, you know, is the Australian government

going to like stop renewing contracts for like Microsoft Office and Outlook and stuff? Yeah. Are they going to stop using Windows on every computer in the country that they have? Yeah, that's right. I mean, well, IBM, I don't really see th taking a huge stand because they may want some sort of, you know, punch card business for our camps or something like that. But like, yeah, Cisco, like, it's just, I don't think it's going to happen, right? And so, like, the first one that actually comes to court will be pretty disastrous, I think. But the last thing that like kind of on that side of things that I think is important, and I saw a lot of people throwing around, you know, that if you don't, as a person,

if you don't comply with these demands, you can face up to 10 years jail time, right? So what I saw this framed as is if, and sorry, if you, my apologies, it's also against the law to say that you are doing it at the same time, right, to reveal that you are putting this in. Now, so a lot of people saying, well, that's not how software development works. Obviously, if someone approaches you within a company and you're the right person to do it, you can't just submit code, right? Because it goes through code the code the code the code, the code, to, the code, to, to, th you can't just submit code, right? Because it goes through code review, it goes through QA and all this sort of stuff, and it just can't happen in there.

But this is where this becomes, where this is like everything in this bill. There's just way too complicated, there's 200 pages. Nobody knows what's going on and it's already law. So this particular one, the thought is that, well, an entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity entity, the entity, thirty, thirty, thi, the entity, thi, thi, the the thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, this, this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, thi, the, the, theate, thoo, thoo., the., thoo. the. this is, this is where, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, thought is that, well, an entity here is like a whole company, and a company may not be able to reveal to the companies that they deploy to, right, that they deploy their software to, that there is a backdoor in it, placed there by, you know, Australia's security agencies, right? That may be where the revealing comes from them and what, like, like, what constitutes an entity. So I don't know whether they would would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would they would ever push through this sort of concept that you as like, you know, a junior developer is going to submit code for, you know, Australian security past, you know, your code review stuff and all that.

So it's more like, if we're providing product, we can't tell you that there's something fucked up in it. But like, that sort of comes into like the political landscape of this where it is extremely complicated and it's just been rushed through immediately, breathlessly and just like, it's just been farcical I think is the way to describe the political situation right? Absolutely, yeah. Where this has sort of come right at the very end of the year, this large and complicated bill, and then we started to see stuff like, well,

labor went, well, you know, we're going to, like, we're going to suck your dick on this one, but we're going to kind of pretend like we're not going to for a bit and sort of just put it off and be like a bit withholding about it. And then immediately they were punished for this, right? Where Christopher Pine said, you know, Labor's chosen to allow terrorists and pedophiles to continue their evil work in order to engage in point scoring, you know, that Scott Morrison claimed Bill to the their their their their their their their to to their their their their their their to their to their their to their their their their their th. the the. the. the. the. thi. And thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and be thi, and be thi, and be thi. and be thi. and be thi. and be thi. and be thi. and be thi. and be thi. thi. thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. I thi. I thi. We's thi. We's thi. We're thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. And thi. And thi. And th you know, that Scott Morrison claimed Bill Shorten is a threat to national security, and then Labour's gone, oh, well, okay, we'll just give you everything that you want then. Yeah, because that was it.

So there were a couple of bipartisan alterations to the bill. But in the background, Labour started racking up a whole bunch of amendments to this. And while everybody was yelling at Labor in every medium that they are possibly available socially, Labor was just going, well, no, no, no, we've got our amendments coming. You know, Tim Watts online, our everybody's woke favorite Tim Watts is going, no, no, wait, wait, wait till you see our amendments. They'll blow your balls open.

And how are your balls right now? My balls are still attached. Hmm, completely intact. Too attached, but that's a step for medical attention. My balls are clinging to my, they're up inside my. Where basically, instead of waiting to debate the amendments and not pass this extremely fucked piece of law that everybody admits is broken in labor on the last day of sitting on Parliament so that the amendments that are

that are required well you know they say that they're required obviously the requirement here is just to not pass this bill right because it's insane but instead of doing that what they did was the exact opposite. And passed it on the last day of sitting in Parliament of the year, with the little pinky promise at the end to say, well, you know, coalition are going to come back and they might look at our amendments, which are required, which are mandatory, but we'll pass the bill anyway because, because the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the is the exact the thi thi, was the the the the the the the exact the exact was was was was was was was was was was was was was was was was was the exact was was was the exact was the exact was the exact was the exact was the exact was the exact was the exact was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thia thia thia, the the the the the the thia, the thia, thia, the thia, the the thia, the the the the th come back and they might look at our amendments, which are required, which are mandatory, but we'll pass the bill anyway because... Yep.

And that's it. Gotta do what you got to do. You gotta do what you got to do. Yeah, when you read like the actual, the amendments of the thing that got passed through, they were like, you know, we will immediately pass this law and then we will immediately form a committee to review the law and provide recommendations on how to change it after reviewing it. And it's like, so the very first thing in the bill is like, oh, we need to come back and

actually talk about what this is and make some changes to it....... the the the the the the th. th. the bill is like, oh, we need to come back and actually talk about what this is and make some changes to it. It's just wild to need to, it's just wild to like write that into the thing, to basically just say, oh, we all know that this is not acceptable in its current form, so we will commit to immediately coming back and changing it. And like you're saying, Theo, there's just the whole thing of labor, you know, putting up this whole pretense of like you guys are rushing this stuff through, it's not really great, and to still just turn around to the 11th hour and bend over and put it through because they have the same affliction that the Democrats do in the states. They have been so thoroughly convinced for so

long that anything to do with like national security and intelligence agencies and stuff has to be has to be seen as this completely bipartisan lockstep thing but the problem is that that's not the game that the conservatives are playing. For the conservatives, it's about saying let's constantly bump up these powers, let's constantly expand the overreach of the surveillance state, let's constantly give up more of people's privacy, let's constantly make it easier for the police to go through all your stuff. But because it's a thing that comes forward in the guise of, well this is about national security, labor are just so completely unwilling to take the fight to them in any kind of way

that says we are interested in national security, we don't think that this actually provides that benefit that you're saying that it does. Absolutely and the reason, the reason that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that the reason, that that that that th that th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii thi thi thi that this actually provides that benefit that you're saying that it does. Absolutely, and the reason the reason that they passed this, right? So there are two reasons. Like one, as I saw, you know, some commentators say that, hey, labor wants to use this. Yeah, well, when they get in, right? Which is like, you know, depressing to think about, I think that, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, you, that, you, you, that, you, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, you know, the the the thi, the thi, the thi, the the the the the the thi, the is like, you know, depressing to think about. I think that you know our erosion of privacy is a bipartisan position, but really, really to me what this is about, and you know, see if you disagree with me, but it's just about anything that could happen between now and when Parliament resits next

year, anything at all, security-wise, that could happen, anything that the security agencies have up their sleeve, right? If that bill is not in, the Liberal Party can point at Labour and say, oh look, you didn't give us the power. You didn't give us the power, right? Regardless of whether these bills, this bill would affect it on. When you look at the detail of the bill, right? What can they do?

Who's going to do a security, like, update and work out how to push this all out and all that sort of thing across the Christmas break? No one's even going to be at fucking work. Well there's also there's that and like if you look at a more recent sort of terror incidents in Australia, this is something I was reading about a little while ago. We were we were a McDonald's. So I was indulging in my practice of shoving my kids into the playground and then hate reading that the Daily Telegraph. Well, that just sounds like a lot of fun. I can see why he do that. Yeah.

It's very wholesome. My wife does the crossword and asks me clues and I laugh at like a Miranda Divine column or read the letters and take pictures of them because they're funny. And there was a whole like double-page spread about you know how come how come we have all these people on our terror watch list and everything they're all like you know being watched by ASEO but they haven't done anything about it you know they were they were talking about it you know. And so they were they were talking about the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters the letters their the letters their their the letters their their their their their their the letters their the letters the letters their their their their their their the letters and their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the letters and the letters and the letters and they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're their their their takes takes took took te. te. tel. tel. tel. tel. tel. tel. tel. tel. they're tel. their their they're their their their their they're they're t everything. They're all like, you know, being watched by ASEA, but they haven't done anything about it, you know? They were talking about like all the people who have been on like an AGO watch list,

and then they've gone to go overseas and find out at the airport that their passport's been canceled, and they didn't know about it. And, you know, the people like the guy, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the their their the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their....... their their. their, their. the guy from the incident in Melbourne recently, was in Melbourne? The guy with the shopping trolleyman and everything. So that was in Melbourne and like the Martin Place guy in Sydney. All of these people were on these government watch lists. All of these people were having their communications monitored and being checked in on frequently and all that sort of thing.

In some cases they had had their passports canceled. But for the most part, when people say, oh well, how come they hadn't been arrested? How come they hadn't, you know, had their citizenship stripped or whatever. The reality is because none of these people have broken any laws. That'd done anything. It was purely a, well, he knows a guy who knows a guy, who talked to a guy over the internet about terrorism or he had posted, you know, he'd posted stuff on a forum, he'd talked to people on the internet or whatever, but all just things like, ooh, they talked about stuff that we didn't like. They looked at pictures that we weren't sure about, but they haven't actually broken any any the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws the laws. the laws. their their their their their th. th. th. th. to th. to to th. to th. to to to th. tho. tho. tho. tho. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. the. the. the. their, the. their, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. toe. the. the. the. the. stuff that we that we didn't like they looked at pictures that we weren't sure about but they haven't actually broken in the law so

we can't do anything and you know so because it's the Herald Sun the overarching thing was all these people should have already been locked up you know like like they had this like a big part of it was like them saying oh you know there's these people who are on like Asia watch lists and they've they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they like ASEO watch lists and they're allowed to have jobs. They went and they got jobs and nobody from ASEO got in touc with the place and said, did you know that we're watching this person? And again, it's like, so you're telling me that every every person that like has ever tripped a red flag for a security agency. If they go for a job interview that Azo's meant to call them up and say, we think that there is some kind of slim outside possibility that at some point this person could orchestrate a terror attack, so don't hire them.

Well, they haven't actually broken any laws. They haven't actually done anything. And they, yeah, they don't get that if you want to do to do to do their, if their, if the, if the, if the, if the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, yeah, they don't get their, if you want to do some sort of like criminal prosecution or any of these things, people need to have actually done something. So obviously that was the Herald's angle. Just sitting there and like watching Minority Report and nodding along going, yeah, no, this is good stuff. So that was two out of their angle. Yeah, fantastic. It was obviously their angle. that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their angle but but again like what a lot of other people take away

from it is if all of the all of the people who in recent memory have committed you know whether or not it was a lone wolf terror attack or a very mentally ill person committing an act of violence whichever whichever way you're falling on those things in all of these cases these people were already known to Australian security agencies they were already being monitored their their the their the the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people their their their their people their people their people their people their people their people their people their people their people their people the people the people their people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people their people their people their people their people their people their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their people their their the people their people their their their their their theirthings. In all of these cases, these people were already known to Australian security agencies. They were already being monitored, their communications were already being monitored, in some cases they already had their passports cancelled. So a lot of people are asking these questions of, if in the cases that these people were already known

and being monitored, they were still unable to prevent whatever it was that these people the people went on to do. So, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they were they were they were they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were they were they were they were they were they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they were still unable to prevent whatever it was that these people went on to do. So what's the point in all the increased powers all the time? It's not as if the cops are coming to us and saying, well if only, you know, we had access to his Facebook messages or whatever, because for all we know they did anyway. You know, there's no specific thing they're able to point to and say, if in this, this, this, in this, this, this, this, thin, thin, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th.e, th.e, th. to, to, to, to, to, to, th.a.e.e.a, th. th. th. th. th. th. know, there's no specific thing they're able to point to and say, if in this instance we had access to this information, we could have prevented this because in all these instances they were known to these people and already monitoring their communications. And the other thing I guess is that, um, it's never, they never say what this is measured against. Right? So terrorist incidents in Australia are a statistical blip, right?

Like they're a rounding error. And you're going to give, you know, billions of dollars towards Australia's security for, you know, to reduce the privacy of Australians, to do all this sort of stuff to give them all these powers that didn't exist before and what's it being measured against, right? Like if we took that money and placed it elsewhere and we didn't do all this stuff to you know affect our privacy and all that kind of thing, you know, can we just invest it somewhere else, right? Like we just add more hospital beds and do all this sort of stuff instead of, you know, this, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, what's th, th, what's thi, what's thi, thi's thi, thi, thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi, thi, thi's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thri. thi. theeeea. thi. thi. thi. theeeeeeeeea, thi, th Like, could we just add more hospital beds and do all this sort of stuff instead of, you know, this fucking disaster that we're doing now?

Well, even if you changed it into like a community outreach type thing, would there even be any measurable difference? That's exactly right, but no, what all they care about is that, you know, criminals are criminals and they should be just in jail for life. You know, when you look at the Melbourne guy in the stabbing attack, right, they go, the right-wing papers were breathless, they're saying he was on bail when he was on knife rampage, right? And then you have to read, I had to open three separate articles to find out what he was on bail for, and he was on bail for a string of traffic incidents. Yeah but they should have known. You know like but that...

If you drive like an asshole you're probably willing to stab a bunch of people. There's absolutely no kind of like you said Andrew like no one's connecting the dots there's to say well what are you going to do? Like what's going to change with this? would you do? What would you do? Are you going to put everybody that speeds in jail? Like, is that the... I think genuinely people have this weird belief where people are either normal people or they're capital C criminals. Yes, with the criminal gland. Yeah, once you find out they have the crime gland meant to punish you until you die. It's not for any sort of reform or anything like that. We'll just ship you off and then you're no longer a problem to society.

Well, yeah, like speaking of, speaking of, you know, these things basically being a rounding error in terms of statistics. You know what I see way more reports of in the paper than I see, the incidents of terrorism in Australia. It's stories in the news about a cop who got into the personal data of their ex or you know some neighbor that had wronged them or in plenty of cases like went in and found the address of a victim of domestic violence and sent it to their ex-partner. Like just all of these incidents where there are all

these authority of figures just constantly being caught abusing the access that they have this information and instead the drive is just it's never about having any kind of oversight or any kind of you you know, repercussions for these people. Because God knows they always do all their own internal investigations anyway. Well, yeah, that's one thing that I missed off of this, that's worth touching on. Oh, yes, it's the best part. There's no judicial oversight, but they don't need judicial oversight. Oh, I thought you were going to say that what I thought was the best part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part part of the best part of the best part of the best part of the best part of the the the that what I thought was the best part of the whole thing, is that they put in a special clause to say that this cannot be used to investigate

a politician who is under suspicion of corruption. Yes, absolutely. So you cannot turn this weapon against us. Just everybody else in society with no judicial oversight. What they do need, apparently, is some proof that it will be used to reveal to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their the. the. the. their the. the. the. the. the. the. their their their their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the. the. theateateateateateateateateateateateate. Wea. th. Wea. theateateate. th. theateate. the. th do need apparently is some proof that it will be used to reveal a crime that has more than three years jail time. But funnily enough, again, with our last security today, with our last security bill, which was the metadata bill that gives access, the government security organizations access to our metadata. There are actually clauses in there for 10-year jail times for things like, you know, harming

Australia's economic interests. So if you can like swing anything along those lines, you can be spied on just not crooked politicians. Because why would we need to know what they're doing? Yeah, and again, it just seemed like such a spectacular own goal for labor to wind up just pushing this thing through. Yeah, well, everybody yells at them from the sideline, like, what are you doing? Stop it.

Stop! Like, it just seems like they just, they just, I don't know. Like, from what I've read, this is kind of a th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, just just, their, th. their, just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just, thi. thi. thi. thi. the. thea. thea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toe. toe. toe. toe. th. the. the know, like from what I've read, this is kind of a similar thing that was happening in the UK for a long time, where they're just, they're so scared of just separating themselves from the conservatives on some of these things. They're really scared of like just differentiating themselves on these fronts to any degree in case it goes poorly. Just in case any kind of wedge could be produced. Yeah, whereas like we're saying, you know, just imagine if there were a party in Australia that we're willing to sort of just turn around and say, you know what, looking at all the advice that's coming through from, you know, and any part of the technology industry, any consumer advocate and citizen advocate groups, like just lots of public figures, all these different

people, we just can't see any benefit to doing this thing. It's been really rushed. We can see that, you know, they've totally skipped the whole part of the process where you're meant to see, you know, actually talk through what the point of this is and what's going to happen, and all we can see is potential negative benefits for, negative benefits, all we can see is potential negatives for normal citizens. So we're not going to support this thing unless we can be convinced that there is an actual purpose to doing it. But no, everybody voted for it except for Adam Bant and Andrew Wilkie. So, in the house. So...

Yep. It was also great to see, um, to see a bunch of like, labor ministers like, um, raising all of their doubts about it and concerns and saying, ooh, this seems like it's actually really poorly thought out and not a great idea and then going and voting for it. Also fantastic. So I think the quote that sort of summed it up was from Labour MP Ed Husick who said in this thing, no minister is going to contradict what the security agencies want, which is... Well it's nice to know who runs the country then. Yeah, basically. It's pretty, pretty terrifying to just have politicians openly admitting. You know, yep. Whatever, whatever happens, whatever they ask for, that's what they'll get.

It's a two-step process. They ask and then we voted in. So you know, that's great. Hmm, it's great stuff. So it's all going well. And of course, all of this happened like in unison with, with this whole push from the, from labor and the crossbench to get through a law saying that the government would be obliged to to take like direction from from like medical professionals when being told

that people need to be taken off like Manis and Nauru to get medical attention. So that was a whole complicated thing as well because they actually had the numbers to make that go through and force a big embarrassing defeat for the government. There was a certain amount of Jimmying to try and get the, because it was pegged. It's very complicated, but like this was this was pegged to occur after the vote for the security bill, right? And so like there was a bit of intertwining to get the security bill passed first before they got to the asylum seeker bill? Is that correct or am I? Well I think so, but it was honestly so much happening that it was, it was hard

to follow while it was a work. But yeah, again, it seemed like the sort of thing where labor were going to be able to force a humiliating defeat on the government by forcing them to sort of make a change to their own to their own laws around, you know, offshore processing and and taking people off Nauru and also forcing them to kind of back their own to their th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their their their their their their their their the, the, their their the, the, the, the, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, to to to to to to thean, to to to to theauuuuuiiiiauia, thea, thea, thea, their th around, you know, offshore processing and and taking people off Nauru, and also forcing them to kind of back down and have to go back and make some changes to this anti-encryption law. And of course, labor being labor, they managed to just completely fuck the whole thing up at the 11th hour and pass the AA bill and knock back the changes for now really so. But I mean it was you could really see how much duress the government is under during all of this. Scott Morrison came out and gave a press conference which people were I think are charitably describing as emotional and hysterical.

Oh goodness. Yeah, for real people were just like, oh, we see. where I think are charitably describing as emotional and hysterical. Oh goodness. Yeah, for real, people were just like, oh, he seems to be freaking out. And what the government was basically putting out during that was they were saying, we will keep any and all options on the table to avoid passing this change, to avoid passing this change to the laws around Nauru. And if that means just shutting down Parliament and going home, we will do that. And that would have been the second time this year that they have been in such disarray

and so unable to sort of have control of the house that they have just said, we're just going to suspend business for the day and leave. So not only have they, do they only have, what is it like, there's only like six sitting days scheduled for all of next year until the election, is that the deal? It's like eight I think, it's that's stupid idiot number Well, it's it's like it's like eight days for the next six months But by the time the election happens which will be before those six months are up Then they will have only had like five or six sitting days

So it's like obviously, you know a lot of this is to do with now they've lost enough of their own members in by-elections and people, people, what's the, what I'm looking for? It's what I'm looking for when a, like when spies change sides, you know, what's the, come on, come on, help me out here boys. I have no idea what you're going for. Defected, defected to the crossbench. Thank you, theo. We've got a connection. We're like, uh fire and off. Yeah. But yes, due to enough of their own people either losing it by elections or defecting to the crossbench. There's, you know, it's so obvious that they're going to get obliterated the election. It's not looking good. the to the to the the to the to the the the to the the the the to to the the the the the the to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. Fe. their. their. their. Fe. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their things. things. things. It's. It's things. It's trexxxxxxe. tre. It's. their their their things. their their things. their their their they're going to get obliterated of the election. It's not looking good. That there's a lot of people very openly canvassing whether or not they're going to run as liberals

or as independents, people talking about potentially leaving the party before the election so they can do that. They're already a minority government. Basically any given thing that they put up and try and pass is at risk of being defeated by Labour getting enough members of the crossbench to vote against it. So, due to the crippling fear of constantly having their own attempts to make laws knocked down, they've decided to just stop doing anything. They've decided to schedule almost no sitting days and to just run out the clock. Which, which like is, to me, that's the whole thing to just run out the clock.

Which, which like is, to me, that's the whole thing that just makes me go, just call an election then. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not professing to be any kind of like. Election law, man. I'm no doctor. But where, where is the point at which they just say, all right, we might as well just go and get our pantsing. Because does anybody on the inside or the outside of this government think that it's going to get better over the course of another three or four months? Well, Andrew, look, I mean, it would take an absolute genius, I think, to lose the election

for labor. I'm comically tugging at my collar, right? But if there was anyone that could do it, I believe in Billy Shorten. He could do it yet. He's, he has that, that certain, that's certain something, I think, that really, that really pops and says, uh, I'm going to tr of trip trip trip trip trip trip, I think, that really pops and says, I'm going to trip over my dick at the last second and hand over this election. So we shall see. Yeah, that's, that I think is the kind of dispiriting thing about it.

A lot of people's take away from last week. Like it was just the government absolutely coming off the rails and like being very very able to be just nailed to the wall on this and somehow labor still winded up coming out the other side they have never been given like anything on a bigger platter and then like at the moment the platter was placed in their hand they got distracted by a bird moving in the distance and just dropped everything. Yep. We've stepped on a roll of skate. Floor strewn with banana peels. Yeah they just somehow did that and it's it's

terrifying to think like yeah it could just give them three months to just fuck it up for themselves. Look, an LNP election victory is truly a bipartisan issue, I think. Yes, so, you know, we'll see how it goes, I guess, but the only sort of comfort we can take is that it really does seem like week to week, uh,. This government just goes further and further off a cliff. It seems like they are into like full survival mode. It's turning into like every man for himself type business. There's yeah, it's just complete self-preservation mode at this point.

Like I said, there's lots of people publicly canvassing the idea of leaving the party in the efforts to just save their own seat. So then keep on that sweet, sweet government pension, baby, you know? You know? Hmm. So we'll see, we'll see how that turns out. I just have one more question. Yeah. So Theo, you obviously looked into this substantially more than than the the then the to to to the to to the to just in the to just in the the to just in to just in the efforts in to just in the efforts in the efforts in to just in to just in to just in the efforts in to just in to just in to just in to just in the efforts in to just in to just in to just in to just to just to just to just to just to just to just in to just in to just in to just in to just in to just in to just in to just in to just in the efforts in the efforts in the efforts in the efforts in the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts the the the efforts the the the the the the the the efforts, the efforts, the efforts, the efforts, the efforts, the efforts, the efforts, the efforts the efforts the efforts the efforts to just, to just efforts to just efforts to just efforts to just, in to just just. to just just. And that turns out. I just have one more question Yeah about this so there you obviously looked into this substantially more than Andrew and I did and I I found it all a bit confusing so I was hoping there's one thing you can clarify for me

What is a computer? Hmm hmm? Hmm? Hmm? It's mostly rocks, chemically speaking. Sure. But we made the rock think. But only what we tell it to. It's a real kind of Philip K. Dick situation. I, we have just had my wife's, my wife's grandmother, grandmother of the show, Jess, staying with us for a week. And so she's 89, has had one million children.

And I was putting on like, gardening Australia or, no, was Better Homes and Gardens on YouTube, playing it off YouTube for on the TV, and I put the subtitles on but there were those auto-generated ones. Oh, yep. And I was trying to explain to this 89-year-old woman that it's artificial intelligence listening to the audio and transcribing it on the fly, that it's not an actual transcription. It is just that the computer is listening to to to to to to to thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi the thi thi the thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, playing their their thi, playing it off their their their their thoom, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, thi, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeat, thin, theat, theat, theat, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, transcribing it on the fly, that it's not an actual transcription. It is just that the computer is listening to the audio and writing it out for you. I feel like you really could have, just with this instance specifically, Occam's raised with it and just been like, it's making up random words because that's more or less

how it works. Yeah. Well, although, I learned a thing because, um, she has hearing aids in both years, because she's very old and deaf. Um, and they've got fucking Bluetooth. She's like playing stuff on her phone, it's coming out of the hearing aids. What? And I was like, of course. I mean, yeah, why wouldn't you have them do that? Yeah, huh. Where was dynamite. She's sitting there watching videos on her phone, it straight into it, because, th, because, th, because, because, th, because, th, because, th, because, th, th, because, th, because, th, because th, because th th, because th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the th thi thi the the the the th the the the the the the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the thi the thi thi the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the the the the you have them do that? Yeah, huh Well, dynamite, just sitting there watching videos on her phone, it's piping it straight into her brain. Yeah, it's like what a world. What a world we live in, you know? What a time will be alive. Yeah, great stuff. Hey, uh, we were we were having a chat on an episode recently recent bonus episode of the show.

Did you guys know that you can get bonus episodes every week? Every single week. Yes. You did know that? Oh good. We were talking about bags on trains. I can't remember how this came up. Oh, that was it.

Friend of the show Pat, wife of the show Pat, wrote in with his opinion that adults should not carry backpacks to work. And I believe we came down on the side of, well that's nice in an ideal world, but if you got to carry too much shit too far, just starts sucking on your arms and your shoulders. But maybe when you hop on the train, maybe just take it off. Take a giant backpack off. If you're on a tram, busy tram, take that thing off before I kick it through your chest. For I kick you in the back and it comes popping out of there like an alien chest burser.

You know? Because it's just a bad time. So, but Andrew, I put it to you, if I'm hopping on the train and I'm, sorry, on the bus, let's say, right? And you've got that section at the bus where you can only fit one and a half people. There's already one person there and there and there and there and there and there and there and there's a bunch of free space behind it. But what I want to do is stand right next to that person with my backpack on, with my backpack facing towards the middle of the aisle. What about me and the things that I want to do? Well what you should do is turn around so you can see people coming down the aisle. And then as they come towards you, you can just to to to to to to to to to to to two to two to two to to to two to to to to to to to to to to th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the and stand the an the an the an thean. thean. thean an thean. thean. theananananneuuuuuuu. the an the an the so that you can see people coming down the aisle. And then as they come

towards you, you can just take two or three shuffling steps backwards and not notice as you smush the back of your backpack into the face of the person who's sitting down. Because as we all know, if you can't see it happening, like perception is reality. I've heard that. Shadows on the cave wall. Blah blah blah. If you don't see it happening, did it ever real? A tree falls in the forest but no one is there to hear it. Someone's face gets smushed with a backpack, but you were facing the other way.

Did it really happen? The 1999 film, The Matrix or the different year film Exist Ends, existens, existens, existens, existens. Yeah, well, I'm not really sure. But the point is, shout out David Cronin, but if you've got one of those horrible mega-nerd backpacks with your 50 laptops in it that protrude 70 centimeters out behind your back, don't even think about it. Don't even think of your substantially increased footprint area, and also the fact that you can't tell that your that your that your the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their the their their their their their the of their and also the fact that you can't tell that your back is grinding into someone's kidneys. Just don't even think about it. It's not your problem,

bro. Well all I'm saying is that if you're, you know, if one person was sitting down in a seat and they had a backpack crushing into their face, but the person wearing the backpack was facing the other direction, they couldn't feel it because it's not part of their body. It's more of a prosthesis at this point. A big old turtle shell. Then all I'm saying to you is that, like, you know, different perspectives. those two people, they're whole, completely different individuals and they're having different experiences on this ride that we call life.

So, you know, just pretend didn't happen. So, uh, front of the show, Tim posted this take from, from the Guardian, from this week. And we thought, how convenient. It was what, the classic... We break the story. The classic, the classic guardian opinion piece. The headline being, I was told off for wearing a backpack on a tram. Had I missed the memo of the latest no-no? By Bridget Delaney,

Some things are now considered so wrong that strangers might call you out for doing them. That sub-heading is the most nonsensical thing in the world to me. Some things are now considered so wrong that you'll be the the the the the the the the the the the the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the told told told toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo thean. thean. the ensical thing in the world to me. Some things are now considered so wrong that you'll be told off by strangers for doing them have historically at the past there have been no things where a stranger would chide you? Hey, can I shorten there used to be no line. Yeah, can I shorten that little lead there into four words? We live in a society. We live in a society. We do be living in a society.

We live in a society. Yeah. And there's this little quote from the piece of the person telling her off, you shouldn't be wearing your backpack on the tram. People can't get past you, the Tisca told me, she looked furious. I pretended not to understand English and kept the backpack on. That is like just the unbelievable immensity of hubris in that is just like the person is saying something that makes so much sense like it's a very logical reason that then she's dismissively described them as being a

tisker for being like well no that's that's a fair point but then the insanity of just flat out blanking them as being a TISCA for being like, well no, that's that's a fair point. But then the insanity of just flat out blanking them. I'm just going to totally pretend that I can't understand what this person. And she is also the widest-looking person alive. So like- Part of me desperately hopes that that part of it is a joke. I don't know if it is but like the whole lead up to it in the piece is like I kept hearing someone going, pss, behind me derisively. And then finally somebody tap me on the shoulder and told me to fuck off with my stupid giant bag on the tram. Also I love the concept of the article that it's like, oh did I, did nobody tell me that it was rude to wear my backpack on the tram

except for this person that told me? Did, did you guys know that apparently we have this new thing where if you do things that are inconsiderate of others in public areas with limited personal space, people do not like? And like, the wild new concept. Did I miss the memo thing?, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the thi the the thi, except thi, except thi, except thi, except thi, except thi, except thi, except thi, except tho tho th th th th th th, except th, except th, except th, except th, except th, except th th the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the thea, except for that, that, that, that, that, that, except for that, except for that, except for that, except for thatea, except for th. And like, the wild new concept. Did I miss the memo thing? Like all the replies to the tweet where people are being like, they make announcements about it on the tram?

And also they had a poster campaign about that specifically. It's also common sense. Oh, so there's stimulus in the world and I'm supposed to react to it now Ben. It's just fucking... I can clearly like, I feel like I empathize very strongly with where she's coming from because she has done something that is clearly a faux par that made her feel like an asshole, but she's trying to rectiatively position it so that she doesn't come off looking like a bad person, like, oh can you believe someone to do this to me, the innocent

party and this. But the rest of the article is then listing off these things that apparently, to the author of the article, are brand new developments. Like did you know the people consider it rude if they are talking to you and telling you a story and you are scrolling through your phone the are talking to you and telling you a story, and you are scrolling through your phone the entire time. Is this, was it written sarcastically? I can't tell.

I can't tell what's real anymore. People are gonna ride in and be like, you fucking idiots, that wasn't real. It was a huge joke. It was a huge joke. Well, I mean, let's be real though, there is a real issue with that when it comes to guardian opinion is free. Oh, that's where the meme came from, right, where you can just put literally anything on the guardian opinion page using like, you know, just edit the HTML and it looks like, and it looks like it fits. Yeah, there is no sort of rhyme or reason as to whether

or not something is written in like kind of tongue in cheek or whether it's someone incredibly self-seriously talking about you know some absolutely wild microaggression that was committed against them by another person saying please madam my nose is bleeding can you take off your gigantic backpack? Anyway the point of the story is take your goddamn backpack off when you're on a crowd of public transport the only people that ever got like any leeway from me with with that sort of thing was like or at least I know I'm like not the only people where I was ever like I understand why this is happening, was just school kids.

School kids get on a crowd of tram and they got their bag on shit. And nobody's going to tell them to take their backpacks off because school kids on trams are terrifying. It's terrifying. Well, it's more, I mean, from my perspective, it's more that I think we all understand that like 14 and 15 year olds are huge idiots with no awareness of anything that's going on around them, you know. They don't need no one to tell them what to do. Oh, they're on their own and the rest of the lyrics. Nice loop back. That's the show.

Hey, uh, my wife was watching something on TV. There was like a local news story that was like about, you know, one of those local choirs, but where people get together and sing fun songs, instead of that dreary old church shit, you know? And it had like a rock quiz kind of vibe to it. Some place where they like rent out a hall. It might have been in Brisbane. They ran out like a hall and all these people come along and sing whatever the fuck thing they've been told to memorize.

And they were doing a song and I was like, is that the Living End? And they were singing that very song that was singing whatever song one of one of like the living ends two hits and I was like like, they, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the theem, the, thin, theem, the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th th th th th th th th, th th th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th th, th th, th, th th th, th thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, like thin, like thin, thin, like thin, like thin, like thin, like thin, like thin, like thin, like thin, thin, the thin, the the song, one of the Living End's two hits. And I was like, man, I wonder what the Living End are up to these days. And the very next shot was Chris Cheney, singer for the Living End, playing guitar and leading this choir. And then just a shot of him going, oh yeah, they asked me to come down. It was nice. I was just like, so that's what Chris Cheney is doing. He's hanging out in a concert hall with a bunch of 45-year-old women

singing one of his songs when he's still wearing eyeliner and a flat hat for some reason. Folks, you can get yourself an extra bonus episode of the show. Every week, for only five US dollars a month month month head on over to patron dot com forward slash winter vista that'll also get your access to our to a discord server you can log on and while away the entire working day siphoning money away from your boss and just channeling all of your

productivity into arguing with other fans of the show online. And posting photoshopped images of me in a bath. Yeah, yeah you look great by the way. Also, just a follow-up, I've looked all of her Twitter replies and she is completely serious. You can wear a backpack and not hurt anyone. You just stand still. That's not the problem. No.

And then someone else is like, I'm with you there. If it's super crowded and you're standing, removing it and finding a place to plonk it on, the floor can be tricky. You just put it between your feet. It's not hard. And she replies, yes, that's what I'm trying to say. She also argues that it's good for like, oh fucking there was something else here as well, but this is just. Perhaps, perhaps like, you know, maybe you could think about what you're doing before you're like balls deep in doing it, you know what I mean? Like maybe, maybe if you're standing with a whole bunch of people all waiting to try and pile onto a tram in rush hour as happens in the city in Melbourne.

Maybe you could like take the bag off before you're getting into the tram? Because I put it to her, the logic there is extremely flawed. You can wear a backpack and not hurt anyone as long as you're standing still. How the fuck did you get into the middle of the tram? Mm-hmm. Sorry, but you wore that that thine thine thine thine tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, to to thi, to the the to the the the the try try the the to try, try, try, try, tha. tha. tha. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, try try try try try try try try try tram. tram. tram. tram, tram, tram, tram. tram, tram, try try try try try tram. Sorry, but you wore that thing as you pushed all the way through and you clocked a bunch of people's heads on the way past and you shove people out of the way. Also it's well known that when you stand still matter can just phase through you as long as you're standing still everyone else well yes it gives people time to line up their particles so they go between the gaps of your particles. Yeah yeah yeah you just know she's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their their their. their their t. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. the the their their their their their your particles. Yeah. Yeah. You just know she's doing that shit where like you're just standing in the aisle

and holding onto one of the one of the poles and like looking out the windows which means that your body is taking up half of the aisle and your backpack is taking up the other half and people just cannot get by. I just I just turned into a real prick about that kind of stuff before I moved out of that city. I just started like walking through as th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the back the back. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. thea. I. I. I. I. I'm just. I'll. I'll. I'll. tea. I'll. tea. tea. tea. I's. I'm. I'm just. I'm justthat kind of stuff before I moved out of that city. I just started like walking through as though the backpack wasn't there. You were phasing through them? Well, yeah, except like I'm not... I'm not small. Nothing wrong with that, though. Not a small person.

So it means that if a backpack is attached to a small person, you can just walk as though it's not there and the person will just be carried out of your way and if they look at you as though something untoward has happened you can just motion towards their backpack and go take off your fucking backpack. I can't wait for next episode to be just four hours of backpack on the tram talk. Back chat. If we get if I swear to God if anyone replies to this being like the to to to the to to the the to the to the the the the to the to to the their their their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to their their. their to to their. their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I will. I will. I will. I will. I will. I'll try. I'll. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm just. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. tram talk. Back chat. If we get, if I swear to God if anyone replies to this being like actually it's better to keep it on, we will dedicate an entire episode to talk about how that person is a fuck with. Just that is your punishment. We will all block you on Twitter. You will be excommunicated in as far as we can. You are done. You are dead to us. And on that note, oh, crime pass for

this week, the Buntavist crime pass is that, yeah, if anybody is wearing a backpack on your trouted tram. Cut the straps off. Yes, you can carry a large pair of scissors or perhaps a Stanley knife and you just, just lop it off at the top of the straps. It's really good out of the window of the window of traming traming traming t. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. t. t. t. t. the, the, t. the. the. the. the. to, to, to, to, to, the. to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the. the the. the the the the. the the. the the. the. the the. the. toe. the. the. to th off at the top of the straps. It's really good out of the window. Hurl it out of the window of the moving tramp. The big, heavy-duty, really sharp fabric cutting scissors? Yeah. Just a pair of those and just boop, boop, boop, both straps, falls the floor, you keep walking. Peace! If you've got to go through a ponytail, like, with the one movement, the it. I was also thinking like it's coming into Christmas and on the left

our war on Christmas conscriptions are starting up. But if you don't feel like participating this year and you want to be a conscientious objector, I think that's okay. You get it you get a pass from me because you don't have to you don't have to be involved in the war on Christmas every year. We just appreciate. That's right. Well, you could buy war on Christmas bonds. There are many, that's right, there are many ways to support the war on Christmas that isn't just showing up to a shopping mall and saying, well, you know, this is all capitalism

and just like shouting in a kid's face to say like you know how do you enjoy the taste of boot and all that sort of thing you don't you don't have to do that you can support it through other means. Yeah let me put it this way you don't have to support the war on Christmas but you do have to support the anti-fosuber soldiers. Oh yeah yeah for sure that saying. Yeah. Hi folks so on that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. tho tho tho. tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho. tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th is is is is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is tho is tho is tho is the is thoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. to too. thoooo. tho. tho. tho. goes with that same. Yeah. All right, folks. So on that note, we will see you next week. Thank you for your time. Catch you on the flip side. Cheers. Oh, I forgot that Theo wanted to be played out with a special song.

Um, because, as we all know, once these laws have been passed, the government is going to know your business. See you next week folks. The government knows when you masturbate. The government knows when you feel alone and it's getting late and you're sitting at home. Looking straight through your webcam, looking at you as Uncle Sam, look them in the eyes with your balls in your hand and stick it to the fucking man. Stare at the screen when you unpack the government is staring back. This is how they know you best for the looked at you while you touch your meat. In the middle of the truth, they put the equipment to the use. Why you think you pay the tax for drugs and spies computer hats? Tax has gone through the roof, at least it's put to good use.

The government knows, the government knows when you're making it. The government knows when you're waiving. The government knows when you feel alone and it's getting away and you're sitting at home, they fill the sky full of drums to check on you and you're going. Size don't matter to the CIA, they can see your dick from outer space.