Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 14 - Open Mike Eagle

Episode Date: August 11, 2020

It’s time to break bread with hip hop artist, comedian and all around creative force Open Mike Eagle. We travel from the early days in Chicago to his current Pop Tart struggles. Pull up a chair and enjoy! And check out his new podcast What Had Happened Was. Got to WineAccess.com/papa to get $20 off your first order of $50 or more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, don't you know, it's also a show. Hey. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I'm Tom Papa. So nice to have you along. I hope you're doing well. I hope you've brought along some snacks, maybe something to eat, and you're getting ready to break bread with Open Mike Eagle. an amazing guy, a rapper, comedian, a writer, a producer, record label owner, amazing guy. Can't wait for you to hear this one. This is really so good. And I have to bring him bread immediately because I didn't get to do it before the podcast.

And I baked him, what is arguably, one of the most beautiful breads of all time. And you'll also be happy that you listen to the rest of this podcast because this is a good one. open Mike Eagle. I knew him from his album Dark Comedy, which came out, I don't know, maybe 2017, maybe 2014, I forget exactly when. But when it did come out, Hannibal Burris, who was in the comedy world, was a part of it. And I was like, hmm, why is he showing up over there? And just really thoughtful, great writing, great music. And he kind of hangs around the comedy world, somewhat. We'll get into it and explore it. But we've, this was, uh, I looked at this one as, as a, uh, a friendship that was going to happen inevitably. And after this podcast, uh, yeah,

I'm going to say that we're pals. So enjoy. Open Mike Eagle. Mike, this is very exciting. Yeah, man. Man, thank you, uh, thank you for doing this. This is so great. I have you, we have been, We have been kind of circulating around each other, like little outer electrons. And who is the nucleus? Do you know who the nucleus is? Oh, man. I don't know. I was thinking maybe Hannibal. Hannibal, for sure. Hannibal Burris. Are you cool with Paul of Tompkins? Yeah. Yeah. He's in my orbit. He's in your orbit? Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, cool.

Sure. He's a buddy. Oh, nice. Yeah, he was always part of this group of comics who, coming from New York, I would see these LA guys who looked like they were super cool. And I always wanted to kind of like penetrate into their atom. And I would always get close, but never really get to Paul F. I see. I see. So I guess he was with the Largo guys. Right. Margo guys, yeah. And he's the only one of them I really even know, but I met a bunch of people through him. Got it, got it. Yeah. And then, and then I started looking into your new podcast with Prince Paul. Yeah, man.

What's the name of it again? It's called What Had Happen was. That's such a great title. It's a very hood statement. It is? You might not be used to saying that, but people who grew up in the hood, what had happened was is something you hear. all the time. Right, right.

It's one of those phrases that once I understand it, I just shouldn't even try saying. Well, you know, you can make it your own. I just think it's representative of like, I'm about to tell you a story, but it's not going to be completely true. And that's not what the podcast represents, but that's how that saying comes across, you know? Right, right. Okay. What had happened was I walked into the hounds. and she was just standing there.

And that's kind of... Yes, exactly. You know, it's not really what happened. Something's getting left out or put in. It shouldn't be, though. Yeah. Well, so I think that Prince Paul might be this... I mean, I'm not in his world, but...

De La Sol, third base, all of that stuff was... Which I had no idea that he was behind the... that stuff. Yeah. That was, that was like my heartbeat during college. So that's another common, common little connection that we're going to uncover right now. Yeah.

And that's kind of the story of the podcast is that he was behind a lot of stuff. People don't know he was behind. Like the Chris Rock albums, for instance. Right. Like the big, like the big one was, I'll roll with the new bigger and blacker, never scared. He won Grammys for all three of them. And Prince Ball produced all three of them.

those albums. Oh, man. Oh, man. That's such so amazing. And then, and then more recently, Barron Vaughn came on my radio show twice in the last year. And he kept talking about the new Negroes, the show, and he's such a light. It was the first time I met him. He's so, he's so great and just like this positive energy. I just love him so much. And then connected that you were part of that and and dark comedy and i'm i'm skipping over we're going to go back to all this sure i'm just talking about why i'm so happy to and we're going to be friends after this oh i'm looking forward to that because i always whenever i do an interview with somebody i have this feeling where i feel like i'm their friend but i don't know for sure so this is this is good to know going in

that i can actually hold on to that feeling no it's happening it's definitely happening i'm not going to let go. And so and then dark comedy, when dark comedy came out, that's when I became jealous of Hannibal because he was in your orbit and featured in on that album. And it was such a good album. It was my, thank you. My nephew, Russell, who I always, once, you know, once you have kids and you start moving out, you've got to kind of, you got to do your work to stay in tune with what's good. It doesn't just come to you anymore. Absolutely.

And he turned me on to Dark Comedy as soon as it came out. And holy cow, was that great. And then knowing that there was a comedian involved, I was really, really jealous. Yeah. You know, I certainly used that feature to talk to comics all the time. Around that time. I think I ran up on Brian Possein in the airport one time. And I handed him to him to look.

cannibals on it. That's so great. So what was the, you had a love of comedy when you were a kid and a love of music? Where did this, had this little seed plant? It's a latchkey kid and I grew up in a really dangerous neighborhood in a really dangerous time.

So I spent a lot of time at home. My grandparents raised me and they were working. So like I would be sitting at home watching television like constantly. So, you know, at that time, there was only like a few hours worth of cartoons on any day so other than that in my television watching all that I really do was watch funny stuff right uh and so you know I and we had cable we were lucky to have cable so I would just skip all around the dial looking for anything funny if it was a sitcom yeah it was a talk show if it was stand up um even like naked night like I'd be

watching sitcoms from the 50s you know just because like that that was always what I was aiming for was just like what was funny you know and I was like learning learning about the world through like Richard Lewis doing stand up you know like yeah it was yeah so like that's where were you Mike where was south side of Chicago south side of Chicago and was it it was it was it was oh yeah it was the crack era it was it was like the peak of the crack era like where like we had a lot of it was so bad we had a lot of education in school about cocaine and crack. Like, it was bad, you know?

Oh, my God. I was in a third grade. There was a kid in our class. He had just transferred into our school, maybe two weeks before that. And he was, like, sitting in the back of the room, and he was, like, leaning back in the chair. And all of a certain, we heard this giant, boom, noise. The kid had passed out. Ooh.

And he had to get rushed to the hospital. and we were informed as a classroom that when they took him to the hospital, they found out his body, his system was filled with cocaine. Oh, my God. He's a third grader, and his system was filled with cocaine. He had, did he just stumble on it by accident,

or did he take it? Well, we didn't get any more backstory. We never heard from that kid again. I mean, he probably got taken away from whatever housing situation he was in at the time. God. But you know, you got to think an older sibling or something is selling or using and he got into it, you know. It was such a scourge.

That era was so insanely insane. I mean, I was in the New Jersey, New York area. Yeah. And so you just saw just whole neighborhoods just taken out. Man, that was rough. So you were a little kid running around. Yeah. And you're living with your grandparents and you're like, I think I'm going to watch some comedy.

Yeah. Yeah, because going outside wasn't really like a viable option, you know. Yeah. They were shootings all the time. So we were in the house, you know. Were you scared at the time or is it just like it's kind of like you're, you kind of just know where to go? Well, it's your, it's your.

The way I think about it is like this. Yeah, there was, there was some normalcy to crime. Mm-hmm. But within that, both from parenting, from teachers and even just culturally through stories, like there were things to be extra afraid of. And so like, for instance, like, you know, we had a lot of DARE education at D-A-R-E, that drug program.

Like, to this day, I can't stand to be around cocaine. I cannot stand to be around it because that's the type of, like, fear that was instilled in me about it as a child. Yeah. So it was like, yes, there was some normalcy to shoot some normalcy to violence. It was very normal to see like, you know, drug addicted people was very normal. But there were things that were like extra dangerous and extra scary, even within that.

Right. And what were your grandparents like? They were really cool working people who had both, like, made decent enough money to kind of separate themselves a little bit from whatever the median income was at the time and kind of be living, like even, even them just being working class was a better situation than, you know, the poverty that surrounded the area. Right. And so they were just really protective and really supportive, especially of like, like me

and my sister. Right. Supportive of our education and wanting to keep us safe, like at all costs. Yeah. Who was the cook? My grandmother. Yeah. My grandmother was a cook, yeah.

Was she serious? Oh, she used to get down. But she worked all day too. So she wasn't, she didn't cook every night after a certain point. Yeah. Because she was working all day. But the day she cooked, she got down. Yeah.

You know, it's funny. I was listening during the beginning of quarantine, there was, I was just talking about this last night. There was this story on the radio about the person telling the story was I wanted to go revisit my grandmother's recipes that I loved when, because it's. Now I have to cook. So let me see what it was all about. And she realized it was dishes like rich crackers and Campbell soup mixed together.

And she called her grandmother because she's still around. And the grandma was like, we were busy. We didn't have time. It's not like now like artisanal cooking and getting your things at the farmer's market. It was like, no, I worked till seven. I had to feed the kids before homework. We needed something like in five minutes. Yeah.

And then, you know, on the holidays or something, they stretched out. Exactly. I can remember some nights when my grandmother, I think my grandmother worked late Tuesday and Thursday nights. And on those nights, our grandfather would get us various microwavable dinners. We had every kind, it seemed like. Every act two, every hungry man type of Salisbury steak. thing you could have.

I remember, because this is really kind of, I think, probably when microwave food was really just kind of catching on. And they were experimenting with French fries, Act 2 was, and they had these French fried gardens for these microwavable

french fries, and you had to load them into this cartridge box. It was like you were loading a gun. With each fry? Yes, and you had to put it all in the microwave. And let it sit for two minutes. And it still came out nasty.

It didn't even help. It didn't even help. You can't get French fries out of our microwave. They gave up. They gave up. We're going to leave this to the popcorn people. What are some of the memorable meals back then? Was there like a favorite?

Like if you were homesick or if you had a holiday? One thing that I have a very fond memory of and it's always going to be a memory because my grandmother used to cook a lot of pork and I don't eat pork anymore. I haven't eaten pork since I was like 13 years old. But she used to like a vast majority of the food that she made was pork. And the one thing that I miss, she used to make these ribs in the oven. Oh boy. They were so good.

Oh boy. That was one of those things. She'd be cooking them for hours and then the smell would fill the house. Oh, I'd just be looking forward to getting my hands on those ribs. Oh, man. Oh, man. That's good stuff. And what was your grandfather like? He was cool. We lived in a big high-rise building like 12 floors. Right.

And he was the building manager. Oh, okay. Of the whole place? The whole place. That whole building. So whenever anybody had a, you know, a broken toilet or, you know what I mean? The door wouldn't close all the way. Yeah. He was on call all the time. Oh, my God. But, you know, both of my grandparents, you know, it's interesting to think of now that I'm an adult, I can kind of look at them and realize, like, just how deeply set into their routines they were. Like, watching soap operas, like just sit, like, my grandfather's sitting in his favorite chair.

My grandmother, like, you know, watching her. Like, they had separate soap operas they were watching. And they would spend a lot of time in separate rooms. Like, now I understand why that was. But at the time, I was like, oh, that's weird. they like different shows. So they sit in different rooms. Like, you know, they weren't all the way getting along.

We're just keeping the peace right now. They were. They were. And it was just like, that was their existence. Like, my grandfather would be in their bedroom and my grandmother would be in a living room. They'd both be comfortable watching their shows. Yeah. My grandmother would be smoking cigarettes.

And my grandfather would just be watching, you know, he, you know, switch between his soap operas or whatever sports were on. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a funny thing that generation. Like, they, there was this, it, it didn't have like the acute, um, path or desire for pure bliss. Like that we should all just be so happy and this precious. It was, no, this, we're getting through this. And in whatever way we have to do it, we're going to do it.

You know, like I always heard stories of like my, like, grandmother's sister. and it was like they were married and and they said like Uncle Bill went to Siberia for a couple years and that was just the family story and then he came back and it was like no he left and lived with another woman for a while but that's what made the marriage work ultimately yeah you know yeah

it's a weird thing it is it is like their comfort with discomfort is something that I have not thought enough about but but you know my I have a very very different understanding of it now than I did then. It seemed like I just also marvel at how much energy they put into us. Yeah. You know, being grandparents, like when you think that you've moved

on from having to parent. Yeah. They put so much energy and love and support into us. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I always kind of, I've got two kids. And I always go back and forth with whether or not I'm selfish or not because I'm still pretty dialed in on the stuff that I want. Right. Me too. And I have a child. So I think about those same things all the time. Yeah, don't you?

And then you think about like your grandparents and is like there was no them. Like they were definitely second right to you and your sister. Right? It was like they're like I in my house. I'm pretty much still number one. and self-aware about it too. Wow. I think of stuff like,

I can remember when my grandfather might have been sitting, watching a Cubs game just completely dialed in. Yeah. And I would run into his room and excitedly show him how long I could hold my breath. And he would just let me do it and smile and, I would be so annoyed if my kid did that. If I was like trying to watch a game, there was no DVR. There's nothing.

Like, all you have is this live sports thing. And my kid wants to tell me how long you hold his breath. Why? Good for you. That's hilarious. The patience is just incredible. Yeah, I know. It's a different thing.

But there might also be a different thing because they were your grandparents. And there's apparently, there's just a different level of love and knowledge of the world at that point, you know, when you're a parent, you just, you know, you, you don't think, you think you've got it all together, but you're pretty panicked most of the time. Even though you act cool and act like you've got it, got it down, it's a different thing. I just want to show you, I'm going to, if this was yours, and I tried to get it to you before I, Oh, that looks beautiful. Oh, yeah.

That looks beautiful. How does it make that shape on top? You score it. You take, um, you take a razor. really a razor. A razor and you slash it after it's proved. And then it lets the air out is really what it does. And if you do it that way, you get a little style too.

If you had to cut a person with a razor, it'd probably be easy to you now. Like, because of all the bread cutting? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I can do it really quick without them even knowing. It was done. See, you'd have done well in my neighborhood. You'd have done well.

You'd have done well. Oh, man. So you're in there in this. in this house in this giant in this giant uh this giant uh this giant building and things are a little weird outside but you're hustling it you're you're going to school and you're you got your grandparents nice around you and you said in the beginning that you were watching comedy yeah just trying to dial in comedy was there any that were there any that became ultimately your favorites well my favorite thing in the world was everything that was on nickelodeon at that time uh-huh because they had a like

this was kids programming but it was weird yeah um I don't know if you remember like you can't do that on television. Do you remember that show? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that type of shit like this weird Canadian humor. Right. And everything's about like getting like these kids getting stuff dumped on their heads and like being professional about it. And like, and my, I think one of the most impactful things on me and stuff that I really paid attention to at that time was how much fourth wall brick and there was in entertainment.

So like you go from the Nickelodeon stuff where everybody was talking to the camera about them being on a television. show, even to something like the Gary Shandling show was huge for me. Oh, God, yeah. Because of how much he would like stop the episode and address you as the audience about what was going on. Amazing. Yeah. That was such a cool device. That was such a cool moment. So that was, yeah, that was on, that was on Fox. So that's a, that's a pretty wide range. That's a, it's a pretty, anything with comedy. Like, because the thing was, I didn't want to watch, I didn't want to watch Hunter. I didn't want to watch Magnum P.I. You know what I mean? I had no interest in Hard Castle in McCormick. You know what I mean? So like I just wanted anything with laughter to me was like preferable to

everything else that was going on. Were you funny? Did it make you funny as a kid? I don't think so. No. I don't think so. I think what it made me was too, I used to laugh too hard at things when funny things would happen. Like somebody would make a joke on the playground and I would fall out and die laughing. And people would look at me like something was wrong, you know? I don't know. But it was just like I just, I wanted to laugh all the time. Yeah.

So like, I just leaned into it, you know. That's great. Were you a good student? Yeah. Well, I was, that's a journey of an answer. In the beginning, very good. Like, you know, top of the class. And I've always taken test really well.

Uh-huh. Um, what suffered around the time I went to, like, from like fifth grade to the end of high school, what suffered was work ethic. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I used to have it. Yeah. And then I'll never forget in fifth grade, the first time we got homework on the weekend. Uh-oh.

I was fucked. I was fucked after that. I was fucked. Because my, my definition of work ethic was you go home, do your homework immediately, hopefully in time to catch a few cartoons. Right. You know. Now, if you send me home on Friday with homework, I'm not going to do it Friday because

I got all weekend. And I'm also not going to do it Saturday. No, definitely not that. Which means I'm doing three days worth the work at Sunday at 6 o'clock, you know, and it was just setting myself up for disaster. I was the same way. I was, my whole strategy was just do whatever you have to do to not get in trouble, not getting serious trouble.

If I could do a C, maybe even a C minus once in a while, they would leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah. My fall off was pretty hard. Yeah. It was, I was really good, and then I got really middling. But that also coincided with a parenting change. My grandmother passed away, and I started living with my mom.

Oh, how old were you? Oh, 13. So this is eighth grade. Oh, man. And as you could imagine, if we were living with my grandparents in the first place, mom wasn't the most stable environment. Right. So my work ethics changed and what went along with that was also a little bit less attention paid to what I was doing every day. Right. You can get away with a lot more now. under mom's watch. Exactly. Because all she was right about was the report card. Was she always circulating around? Like when you were even younger? She was always around, same as my father.

Both were always very, like their presence loomed, but I just wasn't living with them. Right. Okay. Got it, got it. So then your grandmother passes away. Eighth grade is such a rough time anyway. Yeah, it was weird.

Best case scenario, that's a difficult. Yeah. That seventh, eighth navigation. It was already, it was already rough waters. Exactly, yeah. Oh, man. So then your mom just sees the result of the report card. And then it basically isn't saying, like, what happened?

Well, I mean, you know, it wasn't nothing too bad. And I think, like, I don't know, she didn't, I don't think she saw the contrast well enough, but me going from a straight-A student to, like, you know, bees and Cs. you know yeah yeah she like I think by the time I was living with her I just stopped trying as hard yeah and so you know and like I said I was always good at taking tests I started to get bad at doing homework so that would just put me at a B or a C you know pretty much in any class and right that's just kind of what it was I kind of wrote that all the way through high school right yeah I know yeah the bare minimum strategy right it's like you're smart kid and then you're just like just let me

just try and get through this and then yeah wrap this up and move along. Was it more difficult in like those teenage years living in that area and the influence and the, like, how do you, how do you, how do you keep the bad away? Um, you know, the real bad. I, I think my family, and this is, when I say family, I mean, mom, I mean, older cousins. I mean, everybody who was around me that, you know, really cared about, me wanted to make sure that I stayed safe. Yeah. And so even like cousins that I had that were into all kinds of dark shit.

Yeah. They wanted to make sure I never got too into it. So they didn't want to show me things. They wanted to show me how to talk to girls. They wanted to take me to parties. They wanted to get me drunk on the low, you know. Yeah. But they didn't want me to get jumped into the gang.

Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. They saw that I could do other things. Yeah. And they fostered that. And, you know, and in that, they would, you know, we'd all have more fun sitting up playing video games and, you know, them showing me music and stuff, rather than taking

me to where the real shit was going down. Right. Wow. That's a blessing. Yeah. It was great. Yeah. I mean, if they just wanted to give you a little bit of that, you're just, that's a whole

another story. It's completely different at that point, yeah, if they make a different decision. How big of that extended family is it? Well, I can never give straight answers to these questions because everything was so complicated. So when I started living with my mom, my mom had become part of this church thing, kind of. That was like a cult. Yes. But there's a lot of black cult church situations, and this was one of those. Really? Yeah. And every black church that's not part of a national structure is in a way like a cult.

Because it's usually just one person who just decided that they're a minister. You know what I mean? And then whoever, whoever orbits that person becomes the church. Right. And in this case, they were church and family. So we, all lived in a big house together. Oh, wow. And so even the people I was just referring to as my cousins, those weren't blood cousins. The only blood relatives I had in that house, it was me, my, my, uh, did I just say I was my own blood relative?

No. That's hilarious. But it was my mother and my sister and my brother. But we stayed in the house. It had to be 15 people in his house, maybe. Oh, wow. And was it a positive for us? Because it was churchish?

Nah, it was weird. It was mad weird. It was so hypocritical and strange and all the adults were doing weird shit. And, you know, it was ultimately Christian. So, like, you know, there was prayer and, you know, and community and, you know. And there was some wisdom. Right. But there wasn't a lot of, what would I call it?

The people weren't really actually. holding themselves accountable for anything. So like all of the religious stuff without like the everyday morality. Exactly. With all the religious stuff with no discipline and no follow through. Right. You know, so just talking to shit on Sundays and doing whatever the fuck you want during the week. We'll be forgiven on Sunday.

Yeah. Definitely that sort of attitude. Right. Right. Yeah. It was some weird shit happening. Yeah. And did you, was there an ex.

expectation that you would follow that? I was for a while. I was an acolyte in this little weird church. I wore a white robe and white pants and white shoes and I lit the candles to start the service. Yeah, like a little old boy. And I had the little bell thing, yeah, that put them out at the end. Yeah, yeah. And I was in the choir and shit.

You know, I was, I was in it. Yeah, yeah. Until I started having my own spiritual existential questions. Right. that I was not satisfied with any of their answers to. Right. And this is as a teenager. Yeah.

You're starting to figure that out. And just to thread this in because it's such an important part of the story, and of course I lead with comedy, what was the music? I mean, there's got to be a music cascading on you during these years also. The way I like to think of it is that, like, I was born into a hip-hop environment. Like the first person who ever played rap music for me was my mother When I was six years old I got into her car with her and she was playing EasyE

And I was like, what is this? Who is this man who sounds like a cartoon Who is talking about his dick and killing people? I'm like, am I supposed to be hearing this? It's also hilarious. So, like, you know, I was kind of born into a rap environment. It was just everywhere. It was in, you know, my parents.

It was other kids at school. Like, it was just everywhere. It was on television because I used to watch a lot of music videos, too. Right. So aside from comedy, yes, MTV, VH1, they were showing videos back then a lot. And I used to watch a lot of that, too. I think, yeah, I should definitely say that in my television watching, a lot of time was spent watching MTV.

Right, right. Yeah. There was a there was that yeah when you owe MTV Raps was that was that a little before you or no no no that was on that was you. Yeah. MTV Raps and then BT had Rapp City. Right. All of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny it's so funny to picture you in your mom's car as that song comes on. Yeah. And wide eye. Your eyes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mom's not hitting me. Mom's actually playing this. Right. It was very confusing. It was very confusing. Yeah. So as you're finding your way and you're getting through high school, are you starting to think like maybe I'm trying one of these? I'm trying. I see myself in front of a mic at some point?

Or is it not? Is this too early in the story? It was very specific when I was a sophomore in high school. There's this place on the south side of Chicago. It's a park district building in a lighthouse. And it's called it was called Promenal. point. And in promontory point on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons, they had a city-sponsored hip-hop class. And the real programming for the class was breakdancing. But because of the population

of the people who were taking that class, it was a gathering point for all of the people participating in the hip-hop arts on the south side. So breakers would come, rappers would come, DJs will come and graffiti artists would come every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon and just be there like the graffiti artists would be sharing their graffiti books the rappers will be in circles rapping

the breakers will be breaking occasionally somebody would bring turntables and start DJing Wow So it was me and a group of friends in high school my sophomore year that kind of happened upon this and all of us

were kind of free-floating you know radical baseless humans at the time with no you know like unformed malleable substances yeah and we all locked into this place in these people in these art forms and we all decided we were just going to do this we were going to do these things wow that's great yeah so I started who was your who was your who was your who was your best friend at that point a guy named Roy right yeah he's he lives in LA. Oh yeah. We still yeah. We hung out last week. Oh, nice, nice. And Roy had the same,

he was, he was ready to go. He wanted to go with you. Yeah, same thing. Yeah. Same thing. We were all like weird kids. Like, we were all kind of like from like, like, we weren't cool. We weren't great with girls. Right. We were all kind of awkward and we needed something like that to like build identities off of. Yeah. And it was really great because it was as close as you could come to an actual meritocracy. Uh-huh. Where like if you figured out how to get good at these things, then suddenly you had a personality. Right. You know what I mean?

I'm going to hang on to this. Yes. Yeah. And we all built ourselves up like in these arts. And were you, what was your, was rapping right off the bat, the thing? I started rapping, breaking and doing graffiti. I couldn't afford a turntable, so I couldn't do that. Right.

But rapping probably came the easiest to me. I also did break dancing for a long time and I did graffiti for a long time but I was really bad at it. Oh really? Really terrible at graffiti. I was super awful at graffiti. That's so funny.

Where would they do it? How would they do it in the park every, how would they, what would they graffiti each time? Well, in the same spot. It was, it was books. It was just, you bring in your graffiti book. Your pad, your art pad. Got it.

And everybody was just kind of getting together and drawing what they were eventually going to spray paint. Right. But we used to go on missions. I used to be a scratch bomber, which meant I was the kind of asshole. He used to run around with sandpaper and drill bits, and I used to scratch my name into glass.

Oh, man. So there's still some places in Chicago where my tag is up. Because I used to scratch it into glass. Man, I did that one time when it was Plexiglass. They put Plexiglass in my third grade. No. I guess it was probably like sixth grade classroom and they put plexiglass in

and they were so proud of it. What did you write on it? The name of the teacher was Mary Kenny and I wrote Harry Mary on it. Whoa, you went right at her. It was so mean. It was so shitty. She was a nice lady.

She was so proud of her windows. We were bored. She felt like shit that day. Oh man. Was she hairy? I don't know. Probably not. She took a long, hard look in the mirror that day.

Wow. Yeah. But that was the extent of my suburban graffiti. That was my hang, man. Every day. We used to do this thing where we would get on public transportation and ride to the end of a train line. Uh-huh. When everybody gets off.

Yeah, yeah. And just tear that shit apart. Oh, really? And then get on the next one going back in towards the city. So like entire cars, we would just fuck up. It's just awful. Did you ever get caught? I never did. I was the only one that didn't. All of my friends, like there was like a month when we were seniors that like every one of us got arrested one by one, but I didn't. And that's when I quit. Oh, man. It's so funny because it's, it's, it's the thing, artistically, it's the thing that you were the worst at. But it's the most high risk. the most high risk and the most energizing.

It must have been like a, it must have been a rush. Absolutely. I used to, it's funny, because I lived by the end of one of the trains, the one I used to take to school. I lived on the end of one of those lines. And so I used to get up so early to go to school. My mother must have thought I just loved school. He's so motivated.

But I would just get up every morning so I could make sure the train car was empty so I could destroy it on the way in the school. school every morning. She's all proud. Yeah. He goes early. Right. I have a pocket full of sandpaper.

I'm going to destroy the train glass. Oh my God. It's the worst. Yeah. It was bad. Man, oh man. So, but the rap started, you started feeling that that was, you were getting good at that.

Yeah, because I figured out, like, because my brain always thinks in like systems, right, and trying to understand what's happening. So I understood what the formula was that these guys were doing because these guys were so impressive. They were just coming off with wraps off the top of their head. Yeah. So it took me a while to get good at doing it on time.

But I did understand the formula for how they were coming up with the stuff. Got it. They would have a punchline in their head. They would have something they wanted to land on. And they would say the setup line and then say the punchline, line and they would just kind of repeat that over and over again for as many lines as they could remember or navigate towards. Interesting.

So it took a while for me to do it where I could do it on time because that's the real hard part. It's like having your brain, you know, match the tempo or whatever you're rapping on. Right, right. But since I understood that's what it was, I would just go, I would just write punchlines to think of punch lines constantly. And it's jumping the cipher, you know, we used to rap in ciphers. And, you know, and I would just, I would wow people with the, with the punch lines that I thought of.

Right. That's cool. And would you jot them down the way I do with my jokes and just keep them in your pocket kind of thing? I'd have a notebook, you know, with rhyme schemes and punch lines. Right. Yeah. Man, it's so funny how similar it is.

Yeah. It really is. I mean, when I could just imagine, as you're finding your way and starting to get good at it, like the first time, like, you had a really good line that you, because you know, when you have something prepared that's locked and loaded, if it misses, it's so corny. But if it hits, oh, you're just so powerful.

When that first happens. We had a, they used to have battles at this place, promontory point. These were like tournaments, basically. You get paired up with somebody and y'all would freestyle against each other and, you know, you'd move on to the next round if you won. Yeah. And the first one I ever got in, I won it. And I had never felt so proud of my

in my life to get this little six-inch trophy that the park district had made like because I you know I mean other than like you know I used to get school awards when I was younger yeah but those always felt weird to get you know what I mean right this was the first thing I had actually like wanted to win yeah it was a big deal for me oh must have been yeah must have been huge oh I got an award when I was in eighth grade from my friends because I was bad with girls my friends my friends got together and gave me an award for most rejected. Brutal. Yeah, man. That's brutal. Rough times. Only your friends. Only your friends would do that.

Yes. But that's good, though, because it meant that you were trying. You couldn't have been rejected if you had quit. Exactly. I was out there swinging, man. I was out there swinging. Why wasn't it working? Were you goofy at that age?

Were you the same size you are now? I think what it was was I just didn't have I really didn't have a social self. Yeah. I didn't have dimensions or personality or a way to communicate any of those things. Right. And so all I knew was I liked a girl. Beyond that, I don't know what the hell to say, you know.

Just get close and stand next to it. And, you know, and also at that, the school I was at that time, because I ended up going to like a gifted magnet program thing from like fifth to eighth grade and that's when that happened. I remember at that time too, there was this like class thing that was happening with me kind of being on the poorer end

and not really understanding that that was a problem either. I'd see evidence of people not liking me for no reason, but it took me a long time after that to realize because I didn't have any money. Yeah, you have no idea. I had no clue. I had no clue that that was a thing. That's such a crazy thing. It's such a sad thing for all of us in our childhood that you just go from being in this world and you just have this big giant world around you and you could be living under the stairs. You could have the bad sneakers. You could have whatever. But that's just all. It's all okay. It's all okay. And then suddenly you go meet people. Yes. Especially people who are going through or have gone through puberty. It is.

Bad. It is bad. Oh, God. Yeah, in the throes of puberty. Good Lord. It is bad. Man, oh, man. That's so funny.

So then you started thinking, oh, I can't hit on her because she comes from the rich part? No. The thing is, I never knew that that's what it was. So I would, I'm thinking, okay to like whoever. You know what I mean? I didn't realize I was a pariah. You know what I mean? I didn't realize that until way later.

Like, I didn't, honestly, I didn't. I didn't know what it was at the time. I really just, I just knew I wasn't cool. Right, right. But I didn't know why I wasn't cool. And now I'm understanding that it's, it was not having a social identity and also being poor. Right, right. I get it.

So now, early on, when you have this skill, you're realizing that you've got this thing that you can do. You're winning these contests. People must be, you must be feeling it. Yeah, absolutely. And you grow up in, you know, a pretty rough time and a pretty rough part of the city, part of the country. Your, your music is so beautiful. Thank you.

And so thoughtful and so layered. I don't want to be insulting. But you could go, in that genre, you could go, be angry about women. You could be angry about things. There could be, there could be, you know, there's an ilk of, you know, there's, it's like in comedy. There's like guys that just shit on women or there's guys that just whatever. You know, was it from the love of all that family around you that your stuff? I mean, I don't want to say it's filled with love, but it is.

But it's, I think, yeah, I think if you compare it to the baseline misogyny present in a lot of rap music, yeah. It's easy to say to it. And I think that, um, like so in all of my personal reading and studying all through my life has kind of led me towards like this kind of baseline humanist perspective yeah you know what I mean and and so like just in my thoughts

every day like I am like I understand we all have prejudices and I understand why we're doing like in some senses that's a survival mechanism and everybody has that and you know people's relationship with their prejudices to institutional powers what creates a lot of like real rough shit in the world for people. But just on a basic level, I'm just like super genuinely pro-human being.

Right. And like I'm and in that like my my music is it comes from this place where I really always want to celebrate like the individual experience. and like I want to rap about my experience. And in that way it's like, I wouldn't call it beautiful because I think in some ways it's kind of narcissistic, you know. And I think it's reactionary in a sense too because the mainstream thing is kind of all

about representing one perspective that I don't agree with. So I'm overcompensating in some senses by writing my perspective really hard. What's the one perspective that you think? I think there's a lot of, you know, unfortunately still to this day there's a lot of like posturing, a lot of... The bravado. Yeah, bravado, exactly. And that permeates a lot of the music. And it's getting better in some ways.

Like a lot of the younger kids coming up that are rapping are doing a lot more different styles. And they're able to be more vulnerable. But there's still... It's just way too much misogyny for my. my taste. It's so funny you say that because that's what whenever I, like I said, like old guy music discovery, you always like dive into like, tell me who to listen to now. Yeah. You know, and I'll get some stuff and be like, oh, this is, this is, I mean, look, I just gravitated towards that too. I just had a lot of women in my life and stuff. So it was like, you know,

de la soul and all that kind of stuff was like, it just fit me. And I'll listen to some new stuff. and I'm cool with it. I'm cool with the bravado. I'm cool with rage. Anytime that it turns against women, I just check out. I just bail. But there's,

I mean, look, there's all, like I said, with comedy too, there's all those different range of it. But I think the difference with hip hop is that no one holds it accountable. I feel like if you're a stand-up right now

more than ever, you're going to be. thinking about the misogyny in your content and you're either going to you're either going to decide to toss that shit out or you're going to double down on it and go with that audience. Yeah, you're right. With hip-hop, there's not enough people, I don't feel like there's enough people asking the questions to the artists. And I don't, I don't fully understand that.

I don't fully understand it. It's something I always have questions about. And it's not me kind of, it's not me thinking I'm perfect. I haven't moved through life and made, uh, all. wonderful decisions with women in my life, like, of course. But I think there's just this baseline acceptance of like really rude shit. And I would love it if the music that I come from, the music that like shaped me, got to a place where it wouldn't so much like that. Yeah, I know.

It's almost like you have to, it is an interesting. I always think about that too. I think it's a music thing. I think, you know, even as people are going back in the past and saying, hey, this guy was pretty bad news, you know, with women. But like, if you think of like the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin, like all the stories, like it was legendary that they had all these groupies and all these women and who knows what the hell happened. It was like, but music is kind of, I don't know, it kind of has a pass, you know. Yeah, you know, I don't know if all music has a pass. and that's that I guess that's where I'm I get I get a little

sensitive about rap's placing things because I don't feel like Kenny Chesney could get away with saying some of the shit that Drake says you know I don't know if if he wouldn't be asked to do better I don't I don't know and that's just hypothetical who know I just I just have this sense that for some reason people allow that in rap at a rate that they don't allow it in other mediums. Right, right.

Yeah, I wonder why. I wonder what it is. Maybe they just don't understand it. Maybe it just goes too fast and they don't even like really think about it. I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting. I don't know. But your stuff, but your stuff just comes.

I don't know if you said it or somebody else said it. They called it art rap. Yeah, I used to call it that. My first album's called Unapologetic Art Rap. So you said ride hard with that title. Right. And it really is. I mean, because it's that kind of thing.

And that's why when I first heard of you with Dark Comedy, it was like you could just listen to it over and over. To me, that was always the best stuff because I love writing. I love words. Yeah, see, same here. Same here. So when you get all of that stuff and it's like, you could be listening to six months later, you're like, what was that?

Like all of a sudden something's new because it's so layered and you don't even know why certain things are of, some emotion in you. And then you don't even care about like really studying it. It is artistic. There's just that thing where it's always like a good painting. It's always kind of giving to you. Yeah.

And I think that's because I make it so personal. You know, I think that it, you know, I try to like hyper focus it on the things that are going through my mind. And I think that like those things bear fruit over time, you know, It's not always like super obvious what something is about. And it's not even on purpose. It's just like, you know, it's the sort of writing that appeals to me and other music. And I try to do that too, you know. Right.

Oh, man, you do it so well. Let me just take a quick break here to show. I have a sponsor for today's show. Fine. From Wine Access. These are my good friends at Wine Access. Do you drink wine? Occasionally when nothing else is around.

Right. What do you like? What do you like to drink? I try to drink whiskey. Whiskey. I like to drink whiskey. That's Hannibal too, right? Well, he stopped drinking.

He did? Yeah, like I think almost two years ago now. He was going pretty hardcore. He was. He was. And he had an incident. He was like, you know what? I'm going to go the other direction.

Oh, that's good. That's good. So your stuff, when I started realizing that your podcast, what had happened was, Nice. You did it. Thank you. And hearing about Prince Paul and knowing that he, I mean, your stuff kind of is in tune. Huge influence on me.

Oh, man. Yeah. And did you know him as the guy behind all this music? I knew him as the guy behind De La Sol, Handsome Boy Modeling School. And there's a couple of the albums that we talk about that I knew he was behind. But then in doing research for the podcast, I found out he was behind others, like the Chris Rock stuff and, right, right. Third base and stuff like that.

That I wasn't, I wasn't sure that he had done those things. Right. Yeah, that's what I, when I looked up your podcast and I was like, oh, man, I saw a third base in Trenton, New Jersey. What year was this? This was probably, I was in college, so it was probably 88, 89 in Trenton, New Jersey. And they, when I think about it, it was like seeing, it was a small place. Yeah, for sure. It was just like a little like rock club and oh man we just love them so much.

They were just like, yeah, those guys were just and we got to see them there. And I was like, what the hell happened to third base? I think one of them is still producing. MC Search. He's still in the music business behind the scenes. I'm not sure if he's producing as much as he is like maybe managing that type of stuff. Like I know he has a pretty big publishing company too. Oh, okay.

But man, those guys were just fun. They were just like, yeah, and one of them carried a cane. Yeah, the prime minister, Pete Nice. Yeah, he had to carry a cane and all the videos, he'd have a throne, like for no reason, wherever they were. He'd have a throne.

That was awesome. I saw, I saw, I saw, I saw, uh, my daughter put on Hello Dolly. It was Barbara Streisand and, and Walter Mathau, like the old musical. And Walter Mathau is like, he's a healthy guy, and he just walks around with a cane just

for style. I was like, maybe I could do that. I know a guy out here who does that. You do? Yeah, he's a, he's a comedy guy too. Oh, yeah? He's not a comic, but he's a comedy guy. He, uh, he runs a website that's pretty, uh, important in comedy. I don't, you know, Jake, Jake Kroger is his name, but he, he, he rocks a cane, man. He does? He does? A cane for style. Really? Yeah, man. I'm damn self-conscious of it, though, is like, get older. I don't want people to think he needs that cane. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's the line. That's the line you that's, that's, that's the risk you run if you carry a cane. Because you're going to, I mean, you're going to be tempted to put some weight on the cane. Oh, you're going to use it.

Once you're putting some weight on it, then, you know, then it's a part of your life, you know? Yeah. Oh, man, I wish I could do it. I'm going to try it. I think I was in a, like, a, like, like an antique mall place and they had this thing of canes and they're like, like, five bucks. No one, No one wants someone's old cane. Nobody wants the cane. Yeah. I'm going to go get that. I want a walking stick like an e-walk.

You know? Like taller than you? That probably would probably need to be, but now I'm understanding why I don't have one because that's impossible. Getting it into an Uber. You're going to strap it to the top. No, yeah. Oh, man. I might try it.

So you, so you have, you have, success with music and stuff and uh your was the new Negroes the Comedy Central show uh huh is that your first time of actually

I mean dark comedy you're always kind of like nibbling at the edges yeah but then New Negroes is I mean that's full on music comedy you're you shine a light on all these great comedians and sketch

well I've you know we were talking earlier about people we might know in common and um um It had to be around 2009, 10. I started trying to perform my music at comedy shows here in L.A. The first time I did it was, you know, UCB has the Askat show.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, they have a monologist, and then they kind of riff stories based on what the person says. I learned that they occasionally have a monologist as a musician, and the musician performs songs, and they do the improv based off of that. Oh, that's cool. And so I maneuvered my way into being a monologist a couple times at UCB. And the feeling I got doing my music in front of that audience, I was like, oh, no, I need to keep, I need to do this. Like, I need to be in front of these people.

Like, I come from dusty, dirty, desperate underground rap music where, like, you do shows and you're rapping. for people who either love rap so much that they're insane or other rappers. Like, there's no regular people at these shows. So, like, doing my stuff at comedy shows where, like, people were cool. And then they were, like, they would laugh when I got to the punchline part of my verses. I was like, oh, my God, this is it. This is everything. It's supposed to work.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, the second time I did it at Askat, I made sure I got a tape of it. so I could show people to try to get on other shows. And one of the people I showed was Paul F. Tompkins. Oh, okay. And so then I started doing his shows at Largo. And that kind of opened up that whole world for me and like meeting different people.

And basically like kind of being in the comedy community here in L.A. Right. And what year was that? Ooh, probably 2012, 11 around there, yeah. Right, right. Yeah. So I just missed you. I wasn't here.

I wasn't here. banging around Largo until after that. Yeah. Until a little after that. Because he stopped doing them. I think around 2014-15, he largely stopped doing shows at Largo. Right. Yeah.

So you know Flanny? That's the guy that runs Largo? Yeah, yeah. Yes, I do. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. So then how do you, so then you became friends with Barron? Well, me and Barron met at a comedy rap battle.

Oh, really? I don't know if you've ever been either. They used to have that in New York and here in L.A. Yeah. You know, Eliza Skinner? Uh-huh. She used to do an organized rap battle here in L.A. with stand-up comics.

And I used to get invited to him because I was in the community. Right. I always lose. Always lose. Always lose. No, because. So if you remember from my stories in high school in rap battles, I was like rapping for survival. You know what I mean?

Right. And so I was bringing the wrong energy into these comedies. You were too aggressive? I couldn't, I couldn't make the switch. You couldn't tone it down? I couldn't. They would have you rapping against you sweet, wonderful people who were just like rapping in character.

And I'm like breaking down their physical appearance. It was really terrible. You were the mean guy. I would lose quickly. I would lose. Why is he being so mean? But yes, exactly that. But I met Barron at one of those.

That's funny. We battled and he won. He was doing his dope. this like old man. He was doing this old man character and he was killing everybody. He won the whole battle that night. And then me and him talked and chatted. I gave him one of my albums.

I wasn't the one with Hannibal on it, but it was another one. It was before that. And we just kept in touch and started like I started doing my podcast. He did that and he was doing a podcast at the time and I did that. And we just kept talking and talking and he had started doing the New Negroes up in Portland as part of the Bridgetown

comedy festival. Oh, okay. That had to be six or seven years ago now. He did the first one. And he saw how good of a concept it was. He wanted to start doing it here in L.A. Okay. And he asked me what I co-hosted with him.

And that's when we kind of started working together professionally. Got it. Is the show going to go forward? I don't think so. If it is at this point, it would be surprising. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that is surprising that it wouldn't, though.

It was good. Yeah, it's just, you know, I think the show that we're making, I think people need to be able to access it digitally in a way that is really hard to do with Comedy Central right now. I know, you know, it's been, that's been the problem with them for a while. Yes, it's Viacom. It's Viacom's their revenue model is really based on linear cable ad rates. And anytime they put their content, I think, on another platform. it lowers that rate. Ah, is that what it is?

That's what I can put together. That's what it is. Because they make it so difficult for you to see things that you like from the network online. You have to sit through like five ads of stuff. It's brutal. It's like your grandfather tried to make like a website. It's rough. It's rough.

It really is. We were on Friday at 11 o'clock, which is not when our demo is sitting at home looking for what to watch on linear cable. So, you know, I think it was just tough for us to find our audience. Right, right. But to give them, you know, comedy potential, their props, they did put a lot of our content online. So, you know, some of it was able to catch on that way.

But I just think that, you know, for, like, they want to do their stand-up shows in a particular way, on a particular night at a particular time. And I'm not sure that worked best with the kind of content we were trying to make. Right. It's even more chaotic right now over there with those guys. Absolutely. Everybody we knew over there is gone. Yeah, I was just going to say, like the people I really knew and like really loved comedy and really were trying to create things for the right reasons, but not there anymore. Yeah. And it's, you know, I know with the merger, they have a lot of people doing double triple duty over there at different networks. And it's all getting crossed up, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So you just put something out. recently just a single. I put out a song yeah. Yeah yeah yeah neighborhood protection spell. Yeah. So have you been is that a sign of things to come? Are there more than you're working on? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I got a yeah, I got a whole thing done. I'm just trying to figure out honestly like the world just got turned so upside down recently. And releasing music is such a precarious act in any sense. Yeah. That I'm just trying to figure out the best way to do it. when most of the traditional means by which you promote something are largely unavailable or weird or clogged up. You know, a lot of the sites that I typically depend on for press aren't as active. They're laying a lot of riders off.

It's a weird time. So, you know, I'm trying to wait for there to be some sort of solid footing. Right. Because once it's out, it's out, you know, and I can't. I can't take it back once it's out, you know? I know, and there is something to the freshness of it. Like, you kind of need people to pay attention to it as soon as it comes out. Like, I just, I released a book and during, during the pandemic, and then during the protests,

and it was like, you can't be selling stuff. There was like, it was like, this is not about this right now. I'm telling you, I, you know, I started a record label and I put out an artist named Video Dave. if we put out his album maybe a month ago and it was right at the tail end of the peak of the protest. Right.

And, you know, he's a black artist. You know what I mean? And still, like, it was so hard to get a depressed traction because, you know, it wasn't a time for products that weren't speaking directly to the situation at hand.

Yeah, no, it's tricky. You're better off waiting. But I like knowing that you've got some in the hopper. I like knowing that you've got got it, got it lined up. It's going to be good. Yeah, man, I had a rough year, dude, like personal life, family situations.

Oh, really? Yeah. And all of that is in there. It's real dark shit. So I kind of, in one sense, I can't wait for it to come out. Right, exactly. For your catharsis. Yes.

It's such an unfortunate thing that knowing that someone, an artist that you like, struggles is going to mean some good stuff for you to listen to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, definitely digging deep. And it's a lot of, a lot of dirty blood in this one. A lot of talking around shit before, you know. Right.

Yeah. And you've got, you've got a boy in school? Yep. 11 year old, yeah. 11. Oh, wow. That's nice. How old are yours?

15 and 18. Okay. Yeah, one is, one's going to be going to be taken off soon. Okay. Wow. So who does the, what's the food situation? Who's feeding this 11 year old? I'm doing my best, man.

Me and his mom have been split up for about six months now. Oh, yeah. So I'm no cook. No, you're not? I'm not. And I am like, you know, I'm, it's getting to the point now, you know, like this many months into it where like the way I was trying to get by really working. I can tell he's getting a little bored. I'm like, oh, okay.

All right. Daddy's got to learn to step out. and cook some things. Daddy's got to get some microwave french fries. Have they figured it out yet? No, no, they gave up and they should have. It's just not going to work. I saw a thing online where you were shitting on Pop-Tarts.

Oh my God. Pop-Tarts are disgusting. It's a disgusting food. I never heard one person attack Pop-Tarts before in my life. It's almost like, it's almost one of those things that even if you don't like them, you're just supposed to pretend that you do? Yeah, well, I used to pretend too, you know, but it's nasty. It's like, it's like, it's like you're eating jelly inside of two old crackers.

You wouldn't do that. You wouldn't just go to the kitchen and put that together. That's nasty. You wouldn't put frosting on a cracker. Nobody does it. And then stick it in your toaster. Yeah, no, that's weird. And it looks cool.

It looks cute. You know, I get the branding. It's great. they're not good they're not I know but I still it's like it's it's one of those things that's like attached to my childhood where I'm like I'll give them another

every year and a half I'm giving them another try nope still gross still gross still disgusting it's just one of those things I think that once you're an adult that's one of those things you have to decide that you're better than that you deserve better than a pop tart no I know that is the thing

It's like the older I get, the more I'm like, I don't want to just, you have such impact on how you feel and the stuff, like the sugary things that you're going to eat. It's like, this has got to be worth it. I choose quality items if I'm going to do this stuff. Exactly. If you're going to spike your sugars, it's got to be some cream brule or some shit. Can't be a fucking pop tart. That's not good. Do you like being a dad?

Yeah, it's amazing. It really is. It really is. He's a little incredible child and he's not like me and he's not like his mother. Oh, really? Yeah, and he's so like specifically intelligent and I just love watching his little mind develop, you know? Yeah. Isn't it amazing how they just show up there? They are what they are. Yeah. As soon as you bring him home. Yeah, he's, he's his own little person. He's so excitable and empathetic and sensitive. and honest, you know, like, it's really, it's really something.

That's amazing. How is it, how is it went with all of the stuff that's happened this summer? He's, you know, he's, with him, like guiding him. He's navigating, but it's rough, man. Like, he went from being really excited that there wasn't school anymore. So, like, oh, my God, I'm never going to see another child again. I know, I know. He's really turned around on it.

Yeah, especially coming up now. My kids were calling it school without. friends. Yeah. Oh, man. So he's in fifth grade and they had a virtual graduation. Oh, God. Yeah.

It was the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. They're the coolest, right? I hope we never have real graduations ever again. Graduations, birthday parties, weddings, gone. Yes. Those are the Zoom acceptable things. Let's do all those things virtually. Because they're impactful.

They're meaningful. And they're over in a half hour. Yeah. Yes. It's all a neat video package. You know, we can have that moment and move on with our lives. We don't have to get on an airplane. We don't have to go in.

We don't have to buy a suit. I love it. I love it. I know, but I do feel for them. I hope that they get to go back and see some of their friends. Absolutely. Because that's, you know, I don't know that if we're fully prepared for what it's going to mean for them socially. You know, I'm not sure.

Hopefully it won't go too long. That's my hope. Yeah. Science will get us out. of it somehow. Are you a baseball fan? Nope. No. Damn.

I mean, I'm a Chicago bandwagon guy, so when they're winning, I'm always dialed in, like, you know, the playoffs or whatever, but I can't. Yeah. It's just so hard for me to pay attention to it. To any sports? Well, no, no, basketball. I love basketball. Oh, you love basketball?

Did you see LeBron last night? I didn't see him. I saw a few highlights from the game. I didn't realize that they were having a scrimmage that early. Me neither. Because I was, I was tuned into the. the 30th date, I thought that nothing was happening before then. Right, right.

I was surprised to find out that there was a scrimmage. Yeah, and apparently he played like it was the playoffs. Did he really? That's what they were saying, that he wasn't, he wasn't just practicing. You know, I liked how it looked, though. Yeah. It looked so eerie, you know. I watch baseball.

Baseball is my sport. So they put the cardboard people. They had cardboard people. Yeah, in, in L.A., they had the cardboard people. I don't know how I feel about that. I really, I think that's a bad idea. I don't know what the cardboard people's a bad idea. It's kind of weird.

That's nightmare fuel, man. I know. I know. It was a really nice MLB all in on Black Lives Matter. Oh, that's great. Everybody on both teams took a knee and then stood up for the anthem. And then they have Black Lives Matter. logos on their jerseys on the field it was just like it made it seem like what was the big deal

right what what was right my wife said Colin Kaepernick must be like what the hell see it's not that big of a deal it's just about kindness and love and god and now he didn't have a job you know yeah it's just yeah I know but say you know that's the things people have to have to have to step out and kind of a sacrifice sacrifice. I know. I know. What are you listening to? I put on Lupe Fiasco's new album this morning, and I usually don't do that. It just came out, right? It did. And I usually do not do that. But just, you know, I don't know, this morning I woke up early and I had some time and I saw that that came out. And I pressed it. I was like, oh, okay. A new rap album. You know, it's so funny, Mike. I, I'm a fan of his, but I didn't want to, like, I'm very conscious of, you know, there's nothing worse than when someone.

that I know comes up and like, you know what comedian I really like and you brace yourself? But I kind of felt confident in mentioning him because he's kind of in your neck of the woods. But way, like, you know, on a way bigger scale, I mean, like that guy, his career is fascinating to me. Yeah.

You know, to come out, come out like, you know, with a Kanye feature and, You know, be doing stuff with Kanye and Farrell. And, you know, to really be positioned is like a big deal. You know, and then to have like the nightmare major label story he had with Atlantic and not being having the freedom to make his own kind of music. Oh, I didn't know this. Oh, man. I didn't know that was the shift.

That was it. I think it was his Lasers album. Like the story is like he turned into an album and they didn't like. And then he was on tour and they were like showing up to his shows like, this is your album. problem. Like they had songs with hooks on them like you rap here and this is your house. Like yeah, it's crazy. No. And you know, so he, you know, he spent a long time trying to get out of that situation so he can make his own music. And now he's making his own music and it's just as weird and whimsical as somebody who was once in that position could be, you know. Man, oh man. That's an un, that's got to be an unusual story that they show up and say this is where you insert your words.

I think it's unusual that we get told about it. Oh, you think it happens more often? Yeah, I think a lot of hip-hop songwriting is about people making beats and writing hooks and selling them to artists. You know, I think that's what a lot of it is about. Man, oh, man, it's such a, yeah, it's such a, the high commercial part of the arts and the, and the art, it's like, I was on a flight once with Tweedy, with Jeff Tweedy. Oh, yeah. from Wilco, and we were flying home, and it was the day after the Grammys. And he had, Mavis Staples.

He was there for Mavis Staples because he produced one of her albums. Awesome. And he was saying to me, like, you know, they're pretty indie, you know, just do their own thing. And he said, he looked at the Grammys that night, like, I don't even know if we're in the same business. Right. You know what I mean? It really is such a. wide birth in such a difference.

It's weird. It crosses over sometimes, you know, but I don't know. It's weird. Music is a weird animal that way. And I think about that in terms of rap music a lot because like it's one of the few businesses I think you can be in where like, you know, everywhere you go, you can expect to hear your industry like over the loudspeakers, you know what I mean? Like, like, could you imagine if, like, as a comic, everywhere you went, stand-up comedy

he was playing over to PA. You know what I mean? Like how strange that would be. Yeah, it would be maddening. Yeah. And there's something to that too where it's like, you know, it's a constant existential crisis for me. Because I am, I am considered a successful independent rapper.

Right. So I'm in the business. But then culturally, I'm not really in the business, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, the culture's so gigantic. Yes. I mean, so. huge. I mean, we're seeing that now, like, even with, like, with some comedians who are, like,

selling out the garden and most of the country doesn't know who they are. Yeah. Like, that is the, that is, like, you have so many fans and so many people that are waiting for you to do the next thing. Right. It's not unusual. And it's not all, and it's also not a critique on who you are and what you're putting out, because it's just so massive. And I think that's, that's the hard part to fully realize sometimes is that you can follow the mass media cultural narrative and think that if you don't fit into that then you can't exist but the truth is you like you say you could have a giant audience yeah outside of that yeah it's almost like you just you you just have to now because I go through it too you know he's like there's guys that are massive and but you have to kind

of look at it as this is my little army this is my these are my people exactly we're getting we're having a relationship and some years it'll be bigger and some days years it might be a little smaller. 100%. But yeah. And that's why for me it was important to have my own record label because of that. Yeah. Tell me about that. Because this is pretty new, isn't it?

Yeah. I put out the first release on in 2018. But that's exactly why. It's like it didn't make sense for like my career is basically me and my relationship to this fandom that I have developed. Not completely on my own. Record labels have held. But a lot of it is just, you know, me and putting out my beacon over social media and seeing what attracts to it.

And those people kind of lock in with me. So it stopped making sense for me to like try to get a budget from a label and then give them 40 to 50% of the money that comes in, you know, when really this relationship is about me and them. Right. Yeah. So I kind of had to take a little bit of ownership of it because of that. Man, that's pretty, that's pretty, it sounds to me pretty complicated.

I mean, is it, I don't know. I think that I learned over time how to do the things that the labels do, at least on the size of label that I was dealing with. If it was a bigger label, I'm lost. But the kind of independent labels I was working with, usually it was just like one guy was doing everything anyway. Oh, really? You know what I mean?

And so now I'm that one guy and I'm only doing the stuff for me and other projects that I really like, you know? Right, right. And that's, are you taking the similar approach to the podcast network? Yeah, absolutely. just kind of identifying shows and people who I want to do stuff with and putting stuff out. Yeah. Man, that's great.

Well, man, this is so great. Yeah, man. I really appreciate the time and I think we're going to be fast friends. Yeah. Like I said, I hope so. And I'm glad that it's reality because I do feel like we've had a moment. And I'm glad that it's real. And it's not just something that's a figment of my imagination.

Yeah, no, not at all. And if you want, I'm more than happy to drop this bread off. All right. All right. Yeah. All right. Don't give your address now because no one else needs to know. I won't.

I won't do that now. Thanks, Mike. You're really the best. I appreciate you, man. Thank you. It's so great.