Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 151 - Gesine Bullock-Prado

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

I daydream about moving to Vermont and baking happily ever after. Gesine Bullock-Prado made her dream come true and shares it all in her new cookbook 'My Vermont Table.' Thank you to our sponsor Aura! Take the 14 day trial plus a check of your data to see if anything's been leaked online, all for free at https://www.aura.com/papa.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, it's time for Breaking Bread with Papa. Hey, don't you know? Hey, it's also a show. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I am Tom Papa. Thank you so much for joining us once again here at the table. We've got a good one for you today. We've got Gzina Bullock Prado, who is a very talented chef, who has a new

book, My Vermont Table, that is actually a New York Times bestseller. Sorry, I'm a little stuffed up. Can you hear it? I'm a little stuffed up because of my travels, which I'll tell you about in one second. But Kizena is a great person, a very talented. This is her seventh book, sixth cookbook, pastry chef. This book brings us through all the seasons of Vermont. She, um, is related to Sandra Bullock's sister. She lived in L.A. for a long time. We're working on films and things. And then escaped to Vermont and followed her passion of baking and cooking

and just living that kind of a life. And can't wait to get into it with her because there's so many things about her life that are very appealing. So I can't wait for you all to hear that. It's going to be much fun. We would like to thank the good people at ORA. ORA, they've been with us before. They're a great company.

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My wife just went through some of this stuff. and it's never fun. It's nice to have a company like ORA watching your back. So, yes, I'm a little stuffed up. Not a big deal. I'm not here to complain about a cold. I wouldn't even call it a cold. I've just been yapping a lot today.

But after my passport showed up in the last second, literally the last second, the car was waiting, and the FedEx guy walked up and gave us the passport, and we were able to go to Paris and London. and see my daughter and have a good spring break. And holy cow. Man, oh, man, oh man. This is my first time in both places.

I know. Well, come on, Tom. How could you not have been? I've been places. I go places. But for some reason, never hit those. And I knew comedically I had a show in London. I knew I was going to love it there.

And it was going to be a great place for comedy. I was correct. And I also knew that Paris had to be one of the greatest places on earth for food, just from everybody in my life, everybody, every book I've read, you know, a fan of Jim Harrison, that great writer. And man, when he talks about knocking around Paris and eating these gigantic lunches. So I recruited everybody that I could, our good friend Phil Rosenthal, you know, He's been on our program before, from everybody who lives Raymond and somebody feed Phil and on the Netflix's and a great guy.

And I just asked him for a couple recommendations to go eat in Paris. And between the restaurants that he sent me to and just wandering down the streets, you can't fail. Like I know this is nothing new. Someone talking about the great food in Paris is nothing new. But to actually experience it and realize it far surpasses what you expect. Like there's no way you can walk out of your hotel and not run into something great. Like just a simple croissant or a baguette or a pastry or an espresso or, I mean, you're just not going to, you're not going. It's a wonderland.

It really is a wonderland. And the respect that they have for it of doing something really well and taking pride in that is just it comes through in everything, everything. I went to this restaurant called La Mie Louis. And I went there for lunch. It's a 14-seat restaurant, very expensive, went for lunch, as I said, dinner. I don't think we could have even gotten in for dinner, but I figured if I'm going to have something, and it was very meat-based,

you know, waiters who just make their career out of being waiters, real pride, small place. I was the only English-speaking person in the place. I just felt like, take your time, go for lunch, because I had my family with me. My wife was a trooper, supported me as a vegetarian. and she came along and shocked the world by eating snails. She's, you know, we've been at the Jersey Shore with a lot of seafood and she's not into it.

And then she was better at scooping the snails out than I was. Taking those escargo and the contraptions. And I literally was like, this is empty. There's nothing in it. She would take it and in two seconds pull this giant snail out, just smothered in basil and garlic and butter. Oh, my God. Had this duck. had this

this asparagus. I'm not even going to tell you the price of just the asparagus. This great bottle of wine. And man, I mean, it was just everything you could fantasize about eating lunch in a tiny

just french forward place. Oh my God. I have to say one of the best meals of all time. A bottle of wine in the middle of the day does not hurt. your analysis for sure. But man, was it good? I had a great little brasseries and we just, we went, which I tried to eat and drink where like Hemingway was hanging out. I was just trying to soak it

all in. But man, the food, every place you went. My daughters were really into finding places for brunch where we could go and they could get their teas and macrons and just be in elegant little tea rooms and stuff like that. And man, I just, I could see why when you're not there, you would just fantasize about going. A lot of times people say they go over to Europe and they eat a whole bunch and they come back and they lost weight because the food is all real. And while I did not feel bad after meals, as I will sometimes here, definitely did not lose weight. Definitely. This is a fatter Tom talking, for sure. London helped. It didn't help. I mean, their food is so bad, but their pubs are so great that you're just substituting beer for, and that English breakfast thing,

giant sausages and I don't think anyone really eats that. I think it's just a con job for Americans or for tourists. But I ate it. I ate it all. And I rolled back into town. But man, London for the comedy. I did a show in Paris. It was an English-speaking show.

And it was just small. I just wanted to be able to say I performed in Paris. So I went and did a 15, 20-minute spot on this guy's show. and Sebastian Marks. And he was kind enough to put me on. And it was fun. And it was very cool. But not at the level of what a London show is.

That's just, I mean, in the theater district, Lester Square, I will definitely go back to the UK just for comedy. I mean, and beer. And the people. I mean, I don't mean to shit on it. But I'm talking about food. And actually, beer does a great. comedian from India gave me a recommendation for Indian food in London. And that was one of the best

meals of the trip, to Shum. And there's like six of them, but super legit. And that place was just popping, very contemporary, filled with beautiful people. And you needed someone from India to come in and reverse conquer Britain. And man, that was a great meal. So a big thank you to be your Doss. And Phil Rosenthal, how great that all these funny people are leading the way to get me fed in all the best ways. Okay. Now, Gazina Bollick Prado.

Very talented chef. I really want to just explore how someone goes from L.A. show business. And this is like whenever I talk about like just working a bagel shop down at the beach, she kind of did it. She just decided I'm going to change my life and follow my passion in baking and food arts and go live in another place that makes me happy. And so I'm excited that she's going to share the journey. And also you should go get her book, My Vermont Table, which is a national New York Times bestseller. right now and we're lucky to have her so enjoy gazina bullock right out all right we'll jump in excellent thank you so much for being here this is a real treat a real treat uh there are three

there are three um there are three little fantasies in my mind that you are living out Okay, good, excellent. It's not going to be as dirty as it sounds. All p.GIO. Yeah. Leaving L.A. for Vermont. Yeah. Happened, yes.

It's a big one. Opening. I'm not sure for how long, but opening a bakery. Yep. And then becoming obsessed with, maple syrup. All things maple. All ticked off. Correct. Yeah. These are all, these are all things that have always been on my mind. So let's start with you. Let's start with the first one. And I'm going to, I'm kind of going to be probing and seeing if this is, if I should follow in your footsteps. Okay. Yeah, excellent. Excellent.

All right. So you're living in L.A. You're in movie business. Yeah. You're working with and without your sister, I imagine. Mm-hmm. And how long did you do that for? How long were you in L.A?

I was in L.A. about 10 years. I went to first I started law school. I went to law school, took the bar, all that. Nice. I passed a bar on the first go because I didn't study. I baked instead. Really? Yeah.

I was the most relaxed human there during the test. How did you have the guts to do that? It's my procrastative baking technique. I did that all through college, all through law school. When I'm stressed, I bake. And it was just, you know, that's the thing I do. Amazing. And then, yeah, and then we worked together for years and years.

at Ford his films. Wow. So as a lawyer? Well, I develop films there and produce films and some TV. We like George Lopez, the George Lopez show. Oh, man. As a comedian, that is a, that is a legendary story of your sister plucking George out of, out of the clubs and anointing him for television. Every comedian walks around thinking, when does a movie start going to save my life? So were you happy in L.A.? I mean, you were hustling and doing all that stuff, but you were baking. I didn't like it. I didn't like it.

Never liked it. Yeah. I made some of my best friends for life. I met my husband. He was working in the industry. He still does. The family that I love so much is there. There's so much I met, like some of the food, like restaurants I miss because here,

you're kind of responsible for your own eating most of the time. there's not a lot of restaurants here because there's so few people what are you going to do but there was something I was really missing. I was missing seasons I grew up in both Germany and in Virginia and there were things that I just wanted a more full life I wanted all the seasons I wanted um we all know what the focus is in L.A and that focus just really just wasn't my thing my I was focused literally on cooking, baking, and community. And so when I found Vermont, my husband actually took me to a football game in New Hampshire at Dartmouth College.

And the two are, you know, right next to each other. Like, just kissing. And so we went across the river into Vermont. And you would think that being so close together that they are so similar, but they're really quite different. And my heart just. I was like, it's what I didn't know that I was looking for, which is such a wonderful and strange thing to feel. They were like, oh, there you are.

It's kind of like finding my true love and my husband. It was like, oh, here you are. And it kind of all came together together. That is an amazing thing. I had that same thing. I had a motorcycle for years and driving through New Hampshire. or like, what was it, the white? The white mountains.

Yeah. It's very nice. But as soon as you cross the border, you're, you know. Yeah, you do. It's crazy. I'm in Vermont. And I'm doing all these talks with the book talking to people about, like, you know, outside of Vermont.

But when you get to Vermont and you talk about this, everyone and everyone just is nodding their head because something just shakes off. Like the second you cross the border, something just shakes loose. something just shakes loose and you just breathe and you're like, okay, it's going to be fine. Yeah. I'm in Vermont. And there's a, you know, the Von Traps, there's a reason that after all the hell they went through, including the singing together, that sounds like a certain kind of hell to me,

they found Vermont. And the family is still here. And there's something to that. There's something because they were also, you know, Alps family and I grew up some in the Alps. And, you know, there's something here that the little visual. villages are reminiscent of the Alps and how they're really pretty and pristine. But they're useful. People use them.

It's not like Disneyland. Right, right. It's like a community place. So it's just, it's beautiful. And baking is kind of in the blood here. Bread and baking are in everyone's blood in Vermont. Yeah. God, it's that part of it is, it's so, like I said, one of my fantasies when you, I'm a bread baker.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. And I bake like crazy. And it's really funny because I bake more than we eat. And I, so I'm like the weird guy. This is why I leave L.A. Right. And I bring it to neighbors. And I know for a fact, they're not eating all the bread I'm dropping off because they don't eat bread. You know, they're like, they're like, it's a carb. I'm not eating. Oh, God. That's exactly right. Well, I'm so lucky that my, my colleague and mentor, is Jeffrey Hamelman who wrote, literally wrote the book Bread, literally. And he's the coach of America's bread team when they go to the World Cup of Bread. And he's my neighbor and he's my friend. And he and I both taught, I still teach you King Arthur. We actually both still teach you King Arthur Flower. But he's the one who started up their bakery, their retail bakery and their education center.

and we've been colleagues now for some 20 years. And it's just, I mean, when you were that close with the bread guy of America, there's nothing like it. There's nothing. He's just an extraordinary human. And there's a reason that he chose Vermont, too. It's like, I'm telling you, you got to come. The yeasty beasties here are in the air.

What is, is there one thing that stands out that he changed in your approach? to bread? I mean, I know it's it. There's a there's a gentleness about him, but also a rigidity to as well. He's such a disciplined human. Like we've literally taught side by side and it's so much fun. But his approach, he and I have a very similar approach to the way we teach baking in that we want to give all the information and we want to give you the wise. You know, because a lot of things you just, people just tell you to do something. They don't tell you why you're doing it. And I find that just so, it's, first of all, it's infantilizing people.

But it's also, it won't allow them to move on with their baking or whatever they're doing. It's like, if you tell them why the kind of the chemistry or the science behind it, they'll know it more. But I remember who were in doing a French bread survey for professionals. And someone said, you know, I really just tell me when, when do I know that the bread is proof? and he goes like this I'm this is why I love him this is why it's so great

because he tells you the truth he's like you know it's one of those things you just have to live with the bread and get to know the bread and know how it feels and what it looks like and what the ambient temperature is

and what your hydration is it's like but I love that there was no that he had no answer for them he's like you know he didn't say your shit out of luck but he essentially said that he essentially did he's like

he's got to keep doing this to that And that made me so happy that there was no, there's so much certainty in what we do. But he was very confident in telling someone it's like, you'll figure it up. Yeah. That is a very, there is the handling of bread, the handling of dough when you are first starting out. It's a big, sloppy mess. It's sticking to your hands. And then all of a sudden, and you'd watch, I'd watch people live or on YouTube.

and they're even more hydrated and it's not sticking to them at all and how and then just through repetition in years all of a sudden you find yourself able to do it and without without anything other than time and practice that's it it's the practice practice practice and in teaching people get very frustrated that they're not able to immediately replicate the thing that you're showing them I mean they're right there in the room they're like why when I'm doing exactly what they think is exactly like why is it not happening and it's just like first of all be kind to your be gentle with yourself and know that I've been doing this for ever. I feel like I'm doing it for a lifetime. Someone like Jeffrey, it's just, it is, it's watching his hands is such as like I could just

like just put a camera on his hands and I'll just sit and be happy. And we do that we do that for each other like with me with a pastry side and him with a bread side. Though I am a bread person, I'm not like him. That we we will happily just sit and watch each other teach and just be in a cozy corner. It's really interesting you say that about the hands because when I was watching some of your videos the other night, I that was that I literally wrote it down hands. Your hands are so, they're so confident. They're they're they're soft, but they're confident. Like your, your motions, like just, you know, just from trying all of these things. It was really your hands. I could literally just watch your hands. Yeah. And the same for me when I'm watching the Great

bakers is just it's yeah it's gentleness and confidence it's the it's the it's the curvature of the hand when i teach something like struddle dough i i get such a kick out of it because i tell the beginning of the process you are just a murderer you just have to like slam that dough around just to get the gluten development but when you're actually stretching the dough you have to be a complete supplicant it's like you have to essentially be in a monastery and kind of getting people through those phases and going just allow this to be your time to get all your aggression out in the beginning. And then when we're pulling the dough, just be soft. And I explain to people that it's like just, just be okay with the fact that what you're telling your hands to do isn't necessarily what your hands are going to do.

Because they say, have soft hands, and all of a sudden, people are thinking soft hands and stretch. So they end up doing this and they stretch their hands. And they're like, I'm like, you're not too jazz hands. But it's like, I totally understand what they're doing. They're like, they're trying to do, like they're patting their heads and they're rubbing their belly. But it's one of those things that if you just have to have soft hands. Yeah. No, I really, I, watching it was just, it was, it was elegant. It really was.

So wait, so when you, I want to go back to when you started baking, but I'm going to stick with Vermont for a second. So when you leave L.A. and you pack up all your stuff and you're like, I'm really doing it. and you have that first year in Vermont. And I know that your book is broken down into the six seasons of Vermont. I was touring last year and I was there, stayed in the bed and breakfast. And I learned for the first time that they have mud season. Yes. This was mud season.

What was that first year like? Was it as idyllic as you thought or were you so excited that it carried you through? or did you have moments in the heart in the middle of the winter thinking what have I done? No, there was not a moment where I wasn't pleased, so pleased that we had done it. And I love weather. I love winter. I get really disappointed if it starts snowing in the beginning of the day. If it doesn't continue being the same throughout, like if it stops snowing and then it gets sunshiny, I get really grumpy about it.

I'm like, I was promised a storm. I wanted to keep snowing. I mean, I'm really, I love it. But it's one of the great things about having the seasons as we do. And we're just coming out of mud season right now is that towards the end of winter, when you're getting the little prickly, you're like, I need it to stop. That's when the thaw starts to happen. And that's when you start making maple syrup.

And that's when the woods are filling with that scent of that sweet. It's like, oh, pancakes must be near because you can smell, Maple everywhere. Yeah. And it is, and it's month season because the majority of our roads still in Vermont are dirt. You know, we're incredibly rural. I don't think that surprises anyone. So what that means is that when the thaw happens, that we get these ruts in the roads that are incredibly dangerous.

And it's like far more catastrophic to drive here during month season than during the snow season. Right. Easy. You know, we actually, we talk, we talk about the roads like we talk about the weather during month seasons. Like, don't go down there. And people have been stuck for days because they're, they're, they're, they're, they just can't get their car out. They can't get their wheel.

But there's just, but there's some, there's a camaraderie to that. People are, I call Vermont, you know, so my husband always says, what's northern hospitality? Now I say, it's leave me alone. How can I help? That it is, you know, there's a crumudgeonliness and kind of this isolation, uh, kind of component to it. But the second someone needs anything, you're there. Right, right. And so if you're stuck in the mud, someone's going to be there. Something's going to be there to help. What's your favorite season?

Whatever season I'm in. Like right now, mud season, we sugar and you collect the sap and it's just, and you make donuts and you make sugar on snow and eat pickles. And everyone is just like, you know, everyone's in shorts, even if it's like 40 degrees out. Yeah. It flops around. And now that we're heading into spring, I'm getting my garden ready. The ephemeralds are just starting to come out. So my ramps, I transplanted some ramps from a secret, a secret bog, and they're coming up. And I'm so excited.

So that means the morels up the hill are going to be ready soon. The fiddled heads will be coming out. And so you see all the spring green coming out. And you know the food is going to change. And it's only for two weeks that you get to. these beautiful things. But when you, but there's an excitement and there's a purity to like just following the season and eating with it. And the thing I love so much, it's such a gentle time right now, you know, every, the bird song and the greens are so light. But the foods that are

coming out of the ground right now have worked incredibly hard to push themselves through. And so their flavor is reflective of the work that they've done. They're incredibly redolent. They're very umami rich they're just sharp and punchy and it's because they're like damn it i'm going to make it through first and i'm going to be the best thing you've had all year and it's just it's just so exciting and then you have so you know i just look forward to every season and every season is fantastic and this year i will grow a giant pumpkin i will i will you're determined i'm determined i uh yeah you're not um you're not killing this fantasy at all. This I really

find myself also the getting, I love people. I'm a New Yorker at heart and I'm in L.A. right now, but I'm really craving isolation. I'm fewer people at least. I find myself on my iPad just looking at like

cabins because just to be just to be able to write and be by myself would be heaven. It is. There is. It is very doable here. Very, very doable here. And, but that was my whole, I had, I did have a fantasy. My fantasy was we'd come here.

I would open up a bakery, but I'd also be able to write. I wanted to do them both. And this is what I had in my head. So in the morning I will bake. Like, and which I did. So you wake up at three in the morning and you bake. And I thought once all, everything is done, then I will be at front of the house like, you know, like mom, paw clamp. you're sitting there.

Yeah. And I'll be riding. And once in a while, someone will come in, ding, and I'll get into something. And I was like, no. No way. I was up at three in the morning and I was baking until 7 p.m. And it was like, oh. Yeah, no, exactly.

All right. All right. That's a great segue into the second fantasy. Because when you do dabble and stuff is like, you know, I have this bread and I give it to people and everyone loves it. And you have this quiet thing of like, oh, what would be another chapter if you were to open up a bakery, but I had this little show for like a beat where I went and spent time with bakers all around the country. I've never seen people work so hard in my life. It's intense. It's intense work. And if you decide that you want to do it

in a place like this, it is not only intense work. It's unrelenting because you never, you cannot take any time off because if you're the one that's creating the recipes and doing everything, the workforce here is so small and the turnover is so high that you are responsible 24-7 every day of the year, every day of the year. And that's why you find a lot of businesses here like that, that they do have chunks of the year that they just take off. They're like, we're out. Otherwise, you really burn out and you just can't do it.

But that said, I still, even though we haven't had a shot for a while, that I still get that like prickly feeling of like I want a storefront. Yeah. It's like, don't do it. I know. I know. It's like,

yeah, it's a difficult thing because any kind of work around that you have of, I just have good people and I can just, and if you're doing it, you're doing it. There's no way. And there's some people who do it very well, who are very good at kind of creating a big workforce and even here.

So I have a friend Eric Warnstead who, he is James Beard Award winning chef and he has these amazing restaurants and he keeps he's kind of stayed within like the Stowe Waterbury area but he's able to because he is so good at what he does because he has such confidence and the staff have such confidence in him he's able to keep everything moving and shaking at a really high level in this place which is incredibly hard to do he's an extraordinary human and it's so great to have someone like that here to look to and say you need to have his drive and his gumption because and his incredible talent. And so I'm just like, I'm like, well, at least I have some place great to go for today. Yeah, exactly.

I know. There's certain things in life. Like you don't have to make all this stuff. You don't have to own every home. You can visit. Yes. You can Airbnb that life. Yeah.

Right. You don't have to own it. 100%. So where did you, when did you start baking? I don't ever remember not baking. We grew up vegetarian vegan. That said my mother was German and so she had like there's kind of like I feel all Vermonters have baking have baking in their blood. Most Germans do too along with a lot of other stuff. And she when she did bake, which was during the holiday, she was amazing. My grandma was a great baker, but I was sugar obsessed since day one. So I just was like, people ask, you know, who's your influence? You know, were you at your mother's knee? And I'm like, my mother was like this dynamic diva. She was like on tour. She was like, she was not going to be like

sitting here going, let me show you how to do this. She was like, screw you get out of the kitchen. If I'm going to bake, it's for me. It's not the fantasy. But my, my influence was, the witch and Hansel and Gretel because she had the best house ever. I kind of ignored the whole cooking and eating children things. Yeah, that's all right. I was like, you know, she's got some bad habits. Everyone has their flaws. I was fixated on her house.

And I was like, dude, if I grow up, I want to be just like her. But I was just thinking of the house that she was building. I was like, like, what kind of cookie should I have for a roof? And like, what were the walls we left? Yeah, it's amazing. So when your mom was when she was baking and not really guiding you, she was baking with no butter. Oh, no, she would do.

When she would bake, she would go all in. Okay. So that was usually for the holidays. So for the holidays, all bets were off. All things were good. And then we would go to Germany in the summertime. And then she couldn't control us because it was our, we were staying with our family. And they were like vegan schmegen.

And it was like meats, cheese and like. dairy everything was all the good things were there. My daughter's going through a vegan streak now. I don't know if I can even call it a phase. It's been a couple of years now. And she used to bake. She used to come into the kitchen and bake biscuits or cookies just like really quickly. She had a real aptitude for it.

And it does, I have to, you know, good on her. But I also, it pains me that there's no butter in her baking anymore. Yeah, butter is just butter is beautiful. It's such a great thing. When I was a kid, the veganism was also a totally different animal. It was macrobotic. It was all gray. I don't remember a day going to school without a stomachache.

It was just one of those things that now life is just in the world of veganism. It's so much more flavorful and there's so much more choice. And there's so much more knowledge. My mother was an incredibly knowledgeable woman and she did all this study. But it was just not good. Right. It was good. Why did she do it back that?

Was it animal or was it health? It was health mainly. She was very fixated on health. And she was also a marathon runner. In her 50s, she was diagnosed with metastatic colon cancer. So it's one of those things that's like, man. Man, oh man. Like she did everything.

She never drank. She never smoked. She was the healthiest human. and and when she died and I was still in L.A. I was like, life is clearly too short to not do the thing that you know will mean the most to you. And it will make you a better person. I honestly was looking to just not feel so icky within myself. If that makes sense.

Like I was like, I don't like the person I am here. I don't like who am I'm supposed to be in L.A. So I was like, I want to be able to kind of reset. and start over and just be the person, the kind of person that I wanted to be when I was a child. And you knew that, and you knew that baking was a big part of that. I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah.

Because, you know, I am very Vermonter asking, it's leave me alone, how can I help? But when I'm baking, but specifically when I'm teaching baking, I am the best version of me and that I love teaching people, I love sharing my knowledge. And I almost feel that we don't have kids, but I'm a mother to my students. And it's usually like all middle-aged people. I feel very motherly towards them.

I'm like, I want you to, because it's a very vulnerable thing to be of a certain age and say, I'm just going to take some time for myself right now. And you're supposed to know everything. And you've been taking care of other people. And I love just having people in and go, I'm going to help. you and I'm going to help you take care of yourself and this is your time. You have to take care of anybody else. You can just learn a new thing and I'm here to help you do that. I watched this documentary on Stephen Soundheim the other night and I didn't realize what a teacher he was. He

you know he wrote all these amazing musicals and just like this mind and this knowledge. But his greatest love I would say at the end of it was teaching other people and the way he described teaching people was that it's you're just stirring up curiosity you're giving them all your knowledge and giving them enough enough bait that they're going to take it and then move forward and start their journey it was such a nice way to describe it that's beautiful it is that's a beautiful way to describe it and i think when you get when people often think teaching that it's going to be this very kind of mundane and very dry. But it's like it's teaching, I mean, you're teaching sugar, flour, butter. I mean, it's just, it's a fabulous, it's just a fabulous thing to be around. It's, and it's alchemy too. It's like,

there's something incredibly magic about baking, because unlike savory cooking, which I still love to do, which I always love to do, is that when you're cooking, like, you can still point out, that beef, you know, that's the pepper. And in baking, you're taking these disparate ingredients that have their own life and then you put them together and it comes up as something entirely new. And you hope something good. Sometimes it's something entirely awful if it doesn't work out. There are some things I wanted to ask you if you think, back to like the,

you can Airbnb certain things or you can make a reservation in certain places. If you're just a home baker, should you just go to the shop and pick up a croissant or should you make a croissant? You don't have a lamb. You don't have... I think that's one of the classes I find most interesting teaching because almost everyone who bakes wants to make a croissant. That's the thing they want to do.

And you have to back them out of it a little and say it's three days. You just say, let's just put that in there. It's three days. And also you have to make some adjustments for the fact that you don't have the equipment that would make all of this process so much easier. Right. You just don't. No, exactly.

And so there's some things that you just have to allow for. And then it's like, if you're ready for that, then I, this is, this is how you do it. Right. It can be done. But it can be done. And I think it is the ultimate test for baking because I always say the first ingredient baking is patience. That is a thing that you have to live by in baking.

Yeah. And, and that is, that is one of the, like, preeminent. tests of are you are you truly committed to baking correctly and if you are bread is very similar but but croissant is with the whole lamination process there's just more time involved yeah but i think if i think it's a wonderful thing to go to try but i really think you've got to set your mind right before you get into it because a lot of people get really pissed off about it right it's like don't don't don't be that way. Yeah.

Just know you need to be made. Yeah, you'll appreciate that croissant so much more. Yeah. Why don't you try it yourself? I had some friends that wanted to learn how to bake bread. And I was like, the same thing. Well, it's three days. You're going to, from the time you take out your starter and you feed it.

And then we here. And you can just see them just glaze over like, all right, I'm just going to eat your bread. But I have a thing where I was. always I was always cooking and I wasn't really thinking baking. To me, baking was always this precision, clean, mathematical pursuit that I don't carry in any other part of my life. And then when I found bread, when a friend turned me on to just how that's all done, I feel like it's kind of in between like you you're kind of cooking but you you're a little more precise but there's still some room it's not like I'm making a delicate pastry uh in your mind is bread closer to cooking or

baking I I agree with you on how your approach to it can be it has there's a lot of feel that goes with bread yeah there's a lot of feel just with hydration with just so many factors that are going on in in your environment. Just the proof alone. The proof alone is this, it's a masterclass and I don't know. Yeah. It's really true. Sometimes you walk in and you think you have the schedule from the last time you did it.

You walk in and it's tripled in size. It's an interesting thing. I feel like it's one of those things that you can really get fixated in. I think it could be a, I think Greg can be a problem simply because it can enthrase. you so much. Yeah. Sourdough specifically because of it's like it's magical life of its own. There is something so wonderful and, and addictive to making bread.

There really is. Yeah. I think when the pandemic first, like first started, when everything started a lockdown, I was in New Orleans. And I was supposed to be making a show called Best Baker in America. And I was judging that. And we got one shot like one shot. like one shot off. And they said, and they broke us out.

They said, go back to your trailers. And I'm like, oh, that's weird. Oh, boy. That's strange. And they said, we are shutting down. Literally, we just did the first intro. Like, this is the show. And they're like, going out.

And so we were expecting to be in New Orleans for months. And so the three judges and I, it was Carla Hall, I'm sure you know, me and Jason Smith, I said, well, I'm staying in a house. Let's go. Let's make biscuits together. because we all have very different styles of that. And so I went to get flour at the Whole Foods. And I noticed that all the King Arthur flour was almost all gone.

And I thought, this is very strange. And I'm like, and to myself, I said, my people need me. Yeah. And so what happened? We drove back from New Orleans to Vermont. And I called Jeffrey Hamelman right away. And I said, Jeffrey, you and I are going to help our people. because there is something that is clearly nascent within every, seem to everyone,

because everybody immediately, their first instinct was get flour, get yeast. It really, it was people who didn't bake at all. Yeah. Their first instinct was, I need to start baking. Yeah, weird. You could feel it. And I understand that. And I understand it.

But I understood, too, of the frustration of people who were like, I just couldn't bake bread. It's like, a big line of that. And so I enlisted both King Arthur and Jeffrey, and I said, listen, we're going to do a live show where we teach people how to bake. You'll do the bread, all do the pastry. Right. So that people will have like, so we will hold their hand and guide them. And it is one of those things that we were having Jeffrey teach people just in his, like he is literally a master baker. We only have a handful of the United States or a master baker, giving his time.

to show all of his knowledge. And it's like, it was so beautiful. It was such a great thing. But he's one of those people that he can break that news to you that you're going to need a few days to do this. I mean, you don't question him. You're like, yes, sir. Right.

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Do you have a natural traits in you? I think I'm naturally inclined. That doesn't mean, but that said, I, I, the other thing that was in me, because I have such a keen interest in it and has been my, I would say my number one interest my whole life, aside from boys. Thinking in boys, those two were like, and later on beer. So let's see three bees. That my interest in it was so keen that I just kept practicing. So I was, I think I was naturally good at it. I wasn't naturally great.

I got great because I practiced and I wanted to practice. And I know, I know the difference because I was, I was naturally adept at music and I was a naturally adept pianist. I hated it. And my mother, the German, made me practice all the time. And it was just like, I was fine, but I wasn't great because I had no interest. My interest, though, was in baking. And so I will practice and practice and practice with glee to get better and better and better. And that's one of the things that people have to understand that to get great, you need those 10,000 hours.

You just do. You do. I know. There's no shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Sometimes tools will help. And that's no lie. Like a sheeter to do laminated dough.

Yeah. Will improve your quasson game quite a bit. Yeah. But aside from that, putting in the hours and the genuine work and meaningful work. that you really have to be there. You have to be thoughtful about it. You have to be present. And you have to want to do it. And you can't be grumpy about the fact that some things take three days. When you move into cooking, do you find it, do you find it? I mean, there's probably in the Vermont angle of it, you are part of nature. You are, it's seasonal. So these things are coming up and it's

exciting. When it's time to actually make this thing, then you're excited to make that thing. And it's got to be pretty gratifying and motivating. Do you have as much joy in that in the cooking end of it? I do. It's a different joy. And it's a different joy because it is, it's kind of this, you're riffing off of things. You're playing. You're able to like in the moment change, change the flavor profile. You can take, you're tasting, you're tasting and you're changing. changing. And there's something so lovely about that. When you're baking, you're doing all of that in your head first, right? You're doing a lot of calculations first here and going, these are the flavor profiles I'm going for. And then you kind of set it in your brain. And then you make it.

And you do taste, but it's, you can't make a lot of changes along the way. Yeah. It's a good way to put it. But being able to kind of perform that jazz of, of savory cooking can just be such a a liberation. And I was talking to Joanna, Joanne Chang, who has the flour bakeries in Boston, she and I were talking about approaching savory and baking, because we're both bakers. We're both pastry chefs. And that's our, that's where we live professionally, but we're both very avid cooks and how it's kind of liberating to be able to play. And then to write about it, too, because all my cookbooks have been baking oriented to write about it is like, huh, what is this silliness I'm doing?

Right. And when you write in baking, you write in grams. And I naturally do that when I cook. And the publisher was like, we're taking all the grams out. I'm like, ah, don't take out my grams. And they're like, people are going to even pay attention to that. I'm like, blah. I got to make Pop-Tarts with her when I was, she was one of the bakers I visited.

visited in Boston and she made homemade pop tarts with me. She's so great. She's so great. Yeah. There is something very satisfying, though, of when you get to like take, especially when you're serving that you could actually bring everybody from the meal all the way through and then know that you have that big thing like waiting for them. That's absolutely right.

And there is something to bread. And that's going back to like, clearly we have it ingrained. It's kind of this genetic predisposition to go to bread in order to find comfort. And it's one of those, it is the hallmark of humanity, this fermentation. And so being able to be a real part of it, not being estranged from it, is something that is so satisfying, so soul satisfying that I think it's just such a part of humanity and part of what, you know, just kind of the whole agricultural aspect of it, the fermentation of it. It's kind of one of the reasons we've got big brains, you know.

Yeah. And it's just the process itself is so magical and beautiful. And it makes me want to have community ovens again so that people can bring their, you know, their breads. And then you fire it up in the community oven and you like score it for your family or, you know, your household. Amazing. And that would be just like the best thing.

Is there a showcase from the book meal-wise that you would recommend that I tackle first? Like a showstopper? Well, the Wellington. Right. The Wellington, absolutely. Because it is one of those things that it brings all the skills to bear. Right. So it's an inverse puff, which is people are the most freaked out about this buff.

And it's the best. It's the best and it's not that hard. What makes it an inverse puff? In that the butter block is on the outside. Oh. So you lock in the dough on the inside and the butter block is on the outside. And so that's intimidating because you think butter on the outside, how dare you? And you're rolling it out and you're doing fold and turns and you're like, yeah, it works.

And it's it has a much more refined taste and texture. And so it's one of those things if you've ever like tried to get through a puff pastry and it's, taken a little bit of work to get through. It's usually not an inverse puff. An inverse puff is one of those puffs that like, if you, like a milfoy, Napoleon, if you're cutting through it, it just like, it shatters for you. It's like, welcome home. You go straight through.

And then I make that for the Wellington and I just get, but that part of me that wants to give you all the information is right there with the Wellington. It's like, this is how you get the perfect meat. Yeah. it's a hidden meat, right? Right. I was just going to say that you can't see. You can't see it.

And so all the tips and tricks are in the book about how to navigate that and specifically how to navigate it if people have a different temperature preference. So like usually in a restaurant you would get it pretty rare or, you know, close to. Some people just want it medium, which I think is totally, this is my preference. And so the trick to do that without over baking the puff is. is all there. Right. And it's so good.

That's amazing. What is what is what is in season right now at the end of mud season that, that's reflected in the book? So right now, all things maple, clearly, that's, that is, but now we're pushing through. The ramps are coming up. The morels are starting to percolate. Right. The fiddle heads are also. And but my wild chives are also, they, they're like their crazy heads of already, they're all like, hello.

It's like jazz hands. The second, it's like, even there's still snow and they're like, yeah, yeah. Have you met the potato? The potatoes, you know. And then so those things are all starting to percolate and they're just so pungent and fantastic. And I'll literally just go outside and start grabbing things and eating them because they're so like, they're so perky and lively and just fantastically. vibrant. All those things are just coming, coming around. And then that means the rhubarb is not far behind. Nice. Yeah. All right. So you're Maple. You're your Maple obsessed. Were you Maple obsessed before you got to Vermont?

I was not as. I mean, you can never be as maple obsessed. Yeah. Because you can love it. You can revere it. But you can't really be as obsessed unless you're living in a place where you kind of breathe it during the season. And if you make it yourself, you truly become, not only an aficionado, but you do become obsessed about how, like, how are they tapping? When are they like, you're watching when everybody is starting in. This year, some people were like had a couple weeks in January. You're like, should we tap now? Should we not? What are we going to do? It's like the whole spider man thing.

You're like, and we're convinced that archery, our trees are. hundreds of years old that we tap. We're convinced they make the most buttery maple syrup ever. And then you also get access to things that most people around the country don't. So most people just get the golden or amber, the very light stuff. But we have access to dark and very dark. And that's the stuff that you bake with. That's the stuff that a Vermonter would actually, the syrup that you'd actually put on your pancakes because it tastes so deeply of maple. And it is literally like it can get tar black and it's the end of the season run where the sugar content is so high and it's just fabulous.

Wow. My wife, when I first started dating my wife, she was a syrup snob and we were in New York and she would be like asking for the real maple syrup. Yeah. And I was like, what is she doing? Like, why is she, why is she really grilling this poor waiter? And she's like, no, I really want it. Is it real? Is it real, Mabel? And they didn't even know the question, really. Like, what are you talking about? Man, did she educate me? And she ruined my taste buds and my daughters. There's like, what people. What I grew? Yeah, that's a good point. They were ruined before. They were ruined. My mother actually ruined them by saying that was real syrup when I was a child. How dazzy. No, it's, I have people from all around the world come. to my classes and I had some Canadians come in and they'll stay the weekend and come take classes

and they went to breakfast beforehand and they came in in a mood and I'm like, what happened? They're like, well, we went to the thing and they, we had the syrup and they were like, it is not real. How can this be? I was like, I suddenly became as incensed as there. I'm like, yeah, how can it be? Why would a Vermont place not have real maple syrup? Where do you do your classes and how often do you do classes? Are you still doing classes? Yeah, I'm still doing classes. We have, we live in a 1700s tavern that is no longer a tavern. But next to it is the old carriage house where the carriages would come through. It was a stagecoach stop. And it is now enclosed and that's where the school is. So it's like it's, it's a, it's a,

literally abuts the house. So it's kind of a part of it. So instead of like getting everyone tipsy and you know from the stage coaches, we're getting them high on sugar and butter. That's amazing. How often do you teach? Most weekends. I also still teach at King Arthur Flower. So, yeah. Wow. Is King Arthur in Vermont? Yeah, it is. It's a Vermont company and it's like 15 minutes for me. King Arthur Flowers and Norwich, Vermont. I don't know why I always had it in the Midwest in my head. There are red star yeast, the saffre yeast is in the Midwest and Wisconsin. But King Arthur is, yeah, they're a Vermont, they're a Vermont company since the 1800, I want to say, 17-50 maybe. It's amazing how many times I'll talk to bakers and you talk about

getting into different flowers and different kind of stuff. How many people who you'd expect to be like, no, I only get mine from wherever, from this sacred valley. They all come back and they're like King Arthur. It is, I mean, it is the benchmark pastry chef and baker's flour because of the quality and also because the guaranteed percentages. It's the only company that does that. So when, and I have a lot of students who some people don't have access to it, which is incredibly sad and I'm very sorry.

But I have students who like have recipes and they write and they're like, I use exactly the same stuff and it all went a certain way differently. And my first question is, you're not using King Arthur flour. I know that. So what happens is that the flour companies that cannot guarantee percentages, it will literally change by two or three percentages based on hard wheat, soft wheat, summer wheat, winter wheat, right? So their mix will change by percentages in the protein content. And it will change your recipe. It will change your recipe. Right. Especially people who are very good. who are very sensitive to the changes in the, and more gluten will, if you are used to mixing at a certain rate in a certain time, we'll make a tougher product. It will because there's a higher and vice versa. And so that's why King Arthur is just like, because it's so high quality. And it's like, there's a guarantee there. Yeah, yeah. I, this is a bit of a side note, but I was just in London and I was doing a show and I was walking through the theater district. There's actually a musical now.

in London for the great British bakeoff. They've turned it into a musical. I hate musicals. I totally see that musical. I totally see that musical. Oh, that's funny. Is that hilarious? Oh, I love it.

I love it. I love that show. That's fabulous. Breaking into song. You can imagine them doing it on the show. I like, I wouldn't be like a weird thing for them to do it there. I know. It is a weird thing.

I find it weird that that show is so great and so like the pace is great, the kindness is so great. And then you throw on our networks with food and it's so cutthroat in your face, quick clip, you suck, we win. Yeah. It's about, I can only think that it must, the ratings must be fabulous. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it all the time. But there is a reason that people are so.

taken by the Great British Bake Off. There's a reason. And people who are usually more thoughtful and really in-depth bakers watch that show. Right. That's a show they'll go to because they understand it. And I think bakers are at their hearts just very collectively, very kind and giving people. Oh, 100%. You don't go, you don't open up a cupcake shop in town if you don't care about.

people. Right. Yes. And yeah. And it is definitely like for me because I, my goal was like I want to be the person that I wanted to be as a child. It's like baking. Baking is a path to that because baking is if you are like a more reticent human and you're not able to show people how you feel, baking is one way to like, it's literally a way to show your love. You're like, I am not very good as expressing these things. I might look like I hate you. But here, I shall show you through a baked good that I'm not kind of a lecture. It's a hallmark card that you can eat. Yeah, exactly.

It's like, really, I care. Well, you definitely paint a great picture, I have to say. Maybe I'll Airbnb in Vermont. Yeah, Airbnb in Vermont. It will, and you can do it for a longer time. It's a great place to write. We got a lot of good writers here who, like, made their way. Robert Froston spent a lot of time here for no reason.

Yeah. David Mamet. David Mamet, yep. He's a North East Kingdom boy. Yeah. Yeah. This is your sixth book? This is my seventh book, my sixth book.

My first book was a baking memoir, Confections of a Closet Master Baker. And that one, that was my very first book. Wow. Amazing. It has recipes in it too, but it was written as a memoir. Right. do you when by the time the book comes out uh and congratulations again on it uh are you already thinking of what's next or do you give yourself some time off to let it happen um this one is different than the other ones

because it is savory and it is i feel like i want to live in it a while longer because i literally lived this for a year so happily And I'm like, I'm still feeling a joy in it. And I literally will still bake and cook from it. It's like one of those, it's really strange that with a baking book, because it's usually so much more technical and like you're really like, you have to be so on it. It's like it's big brainwork.

Not that this wasn't. This is, this was far more a labor of love and it was so joyful. And it makes me happy to talk about because it's also stories of what it's like here. and what I find so beautiful here in stories of the animals we raise. And I just, I kind of wrote it. I almost went back to my memoir in that the way I wrote it was so much more, I wrote it more literarily.

Uh-huh. That's nice. Yeah. I like that. Do you collect cookbooks? Do you, when I find, right, when I find cookbooks like that, I read them like novels. And that, yeah, and I know. That's kind of how I wrote it.

And that's kind of the nice thing about the way it's structured through those six seasons is that it does take you through the journey of living here for a year. And I think a lot of people, the great thing about being in Vermont, too, is that, you know, most state cookbooks would be just for the state that it's written about. Vermont has this thing about it that you just say it, the word Vermont, and people get the feeling. They get all these very sweet, comforted feelings that it is. So it is this vibe as a way of creating this kind of simplicity and loveliness at home. And it's a thing that I needed when I was in L.A. It's a thing that I was trying to conjure. Yeah.

And if I had had this book, I would have been able to somehow conjure moments like in the fall. When I wasn't getting the fall I wanted, I would be able to at least replicate some it through food. Yeah. Right. Well said. Well said. Well, congratulations. This was really a treat. I was looking forward to it and you did not disappoint. Come Airbnb Vermont. We are here. And there's so much bread to be made and have. I'll be flying across the country with my starter on my lap. You be good. You wouldn't be the only person who's like running. around where there's darling. Hilarious. Well, thank you so much.

This was really great. Congratulations. And I can't wait to see you again. Come visit. All right, I will. Okay, everybody, that was our big show. Thank you so much to Gazzina. It was a great interview, not because of the person asking the questions,

because she just has such a great story to tell. It really makes me want to go to Vermont in a huge way. But I'll use her book in the meantime and bake stuff. Maybe an Airbnb. Maybe an Airbnb in a cabin near where she is baking things. That's not too creepy. Just having a comedian show up and just pulling the blinds. Hey, guess who's moved in next door?

But thank you so much for being here. Go get her book by Vermont table. Go to tompapa.com. My book is actually available for pre-order right now. We're all in this together. So make some room. We have a bunch of book events coming up. We're going to let you know all about that.

Of course, out on tour. We have tickets available in Chicago, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Cleveland, a whole bunch of great places. So go to Tompapa.com for all of that. You guys are the best. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next time.