Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 174 - Gary Gulman

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

Gary Gulman has always been a great comedian and now he's written a great book - Misfit, Growing Up Awkward in the 80s - that he shares with us.    Thank you to our sponsor Green Chef! Green Chef is your one stop shop for nutritious, grab&go breakfasts, lunch kits and more. Go to https://www.greenchef.com/60papa and use code 60PAPA for 60% off and free shipping. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We've got a great one today with Gary Goldman. He's got a new book out called Misfit, Growing Up Awkward in the 80s. It's hilarious. Just like Gary, it is hilarious. It is deep. It is so well written. It is a great book, a great next step. for Gary and his little artistic journey that we get to go along with.

Can't wait for you to hear this conversation. I'd like to thank the good people at greenchef.com. Green Chef is sponsoring the show today. Green Chef is a great company who gives you lots of, if you need to make meals and you want to eat a certain way, a healthy way, maybe a decadent way, whatever way you want to eat, Green Chef can help you dial in. They send you all the ingredients to your house.

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Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. My wife is running around doing school now. Her constant thing is I've got two minutes. How am I going to get my stuff and get out the door? How am I going to eat breakfast and have lunch? Green Chef. So Gary Galman, great comedian, great friend. I adore him.

This is a nice, healthy, healthy, healthy conversation. I read his book. I started reading his book. I'm probably halfway through it. It's so great. You can literally just hear it. Joey, I feel like you are looking forward to this one more because, not more than all the others, but there's a annoying Boston connection that you have with Gary.

We do have the Boston connection. We were annoying, but yeah. Yeah, Gary's great. I'm excited. What is it about Boston and Gary that makes you so happy because you grew up there? I grew up there. He went to the same college. My entire family pretty much went to Boston College.

Right. Yeah. There's a kinship. Kinship. It's weird, though, because I think he literally, and I'm not saying this to bust balls, but I think he's literally three times as tall as you. I don't think it's, I don't think he's double. I think he's maybe three times as tall.

Yeah. That's tough. It's not on you. He's a giant. Yeah. He's gigantic. The book is great. It's insightful.

We'll get into all of it. So let's just jump right in. Enjoy Gary Goldman. It's a great room. Love the Wilbur. It's a really good room. Yeah. I did my last special there.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great place to shoot a special. I did one there too. You did? Yeah. Yeah.

It's terrific. And although at the time I had to rely on an audience coordinator. to fill it but yeah i know those are those are always kind of tricky i was just talking about a building somewhere in dc and uh they're like yeah it's great building 1500 seats and you got to do two oof that's tough that's tough you don't want to preparing for the you're preparing for the show and then you also got to promote it at the same time that's no that's why i like to stick to about 300 the tickets go on sale they sell out You work on the set.

Right, exactly, done. Yeah. Could you direct your own special? No. No. No, I realized recently that I could not invent the rearview mirror in an automobile if you spotted me the mirror. I have no idea how the thing works that makes it night vision.

Right. Right? I don't know how that, I don't know what angle you would have to apply that thing to the thing. Yeah. To the mirror to get it to give you just, just. neutrality between the high beams. Not your department. Not my department.

Not your department. I can build a good sentence. Yeah. Add to that sentence. Right. When you get ready for this special, you don't want three days before producer calling you and asking you some question

that you don't want to think about. No, have no idea. You just want to roll in and do your thing. Have no idea. I want a mic stand. Yeah. A stool.

A wired microphone because I, this is insane. don't trust the wireless mic. I do, I know. I go everywhere I go, and this was a leftover from Seinfeld. Okay. He didn't trust the wireless mic. So then I didn't trust the wireless mic.

And I go to places, I'll go to corporate gigs and they're like, can you please? Do you not use the, and I'm like, yeah, it's never a problem. Never a problem. I don't like how fat they are, though. No, it's not fat. Yeah, it's like using somebody else's baseball bat. Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden I got the fat Albert bat.

Oh my gosh, remember those? Remember those? It's a very, it's a weird thing, the fat Albert bat, because you're too young to form memories, so you don't remember ever swinging it and hitting anything with it, but it was always there in the house. So it had to have gotten used at some point.

You just can't, you don't remember it. This is why, in perfect segue, early segue to early compliments on your book. Thank you. I'm so, a compliment. is that you read it. That makes me so happy. I'm not through it.

Okay. No, I read a bunch of it. I understand. It's so good. Oh, thanks, Tommy. Let me just have, there's two places I can start,

and I'm going to, you're just going to have to ride out and be uncomfortable with some compliments for a minute. All right. Number one, I will go with, uh, it's,

it's misfit growing up awkward in the 80s. So within two and a half paragraphs, I've already lived four of you. your references. Wow. I mean, we're so on the money. I mean, it's like you wrote it. Like, I was like your friend down the street.

It was like... That's basically what I did. I wrote it with certain readers in mind who would get the references of a certain age. And so I had a really good reader who was able to give me good feedback. So, I mean, when you hit in the, near the beginning, you're being shocked by something and you equated it to when you see Bert from Bert and Ernie doing the pigeon and you see his legs for the first time. Yeah.

How startled you are. I was literally like my little Tommy voice at six years old yelled out last night. Yeah, what was that? Oh, that's awesome. Oh, wow. And there's so much of that. Oh, Tom, thank you. It's so rich and so deep.

Because I admire your work and your taste in stuff. Well, that leads... We read a lot of the same books, and you always recommend such excellent writing. Well, that's my second compliment was that you and I are connected through comedy and her friendship in New York and all that stuff. But also, you're the only comedian I ever discuss books with. Ever. There's not one other. Once in a while, Colin would be...

Right, right, right. But he just says Confederacy of Dunsts over and over again. He says reread the Confederacy of Dunsts every three months until you memorize it. Right. He's never, he's never suggested another book. It's great. He's right. Yeah.

No, he's right. Yeah. That's it. That's where the conversation is. No, it's his Bible. I've never had Robert Kelly come up and suggest a book. You know what, dude. You got to read my struggle.

Not the Hitler one. Yeah. So you and I talk a lot about. books and we're always and I'll be I'll literally be without a book and text you and what have you got anything and I'll shoot you stuff yeah even when we're been on separate coast so I know that you don't go into writing a book uh um lightly no and a hundred percent if I didn't know you I would say uh you wrote a real book wow you have It's so surprising.

Your phrases are great. Every sentence is a delight. It's all the stuff we love about books. Yes. You achieved in your book. Oh, wow. Man, that is the highest compliment. I'm going to take it in and say thank you.

I mean, I couldn't ask for anything more. It's really. It's such a pleasure. Because we revere books. Yeah. And we want to do right by the form. And you have. And I was praying that I would.

So I appreciate it. I appreciate that. I was so cocky as I was reading your book, and I was like, poor Gary, I got to tell him about the typo on page three. He's going to be very upset. It's probably already printed. I don't have to tell him that he left the pee out of pool. That was, yeah, that was our neighbor, the Robinsist. Welcome to the Ool.

Welcome to the Ool, which is, that was the... It was one of the first jokes I really embrace. Notice there is no pee in it. It was just... Let's keep it that way. Yeah, let's keep it that way. And it's just... I couldn't even read at the time.

My mother read it to me. And it just... I was like, this is what I love. This is joke. Yeah, this is word play, but it's also letter play, right? Welcome to the Ool. There's no pee in our pool. Let's keep it that way.

Yeah. Yeah. Notice there is no pee in it. I actually put the book down, jotted the note to tell you. Oh, thanks, man. And then went back and read the second sentence. Oh, that's so... Which completed it that there was no P&POL.

Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, it was very funny. Yeah, and on the last day of kindergarten, it was my kindergarten teacher's ool. Right. And on the last day of kindergarten, I made a joke. I said to her, as we were saying goodbye, I said, because I used to, they were neighbors. I would go over there all the time, and I said, I'll see you at the Ool. I thought I was so clever.

It's great. The book is written, first of all, brilliant. stroke on the pre-intro, pre-introduction, and then in the introduction, saying that you don't like people who skip the intro. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I look down on them. Yeah. Like what else are they, what else are they half-assing in their life? Exactly, exactly.

And we know people who claim to be a lot more prolific in things and they skim things. And they, yeah, yeah, it's really irritating. I know. And the one thing I learned in writing the books was that the hardest part would be asking people to read it. Yeah. It's so, because I feel like, I'm busy, they're busy. And so I can't thank you enough. There's a rhythm to these things, too, when you ask people to do stuff.

There's like certain times, and same with, like, any art you put out, there are certain times when everybody can digest it. It's just to hit the rhythm and the timing is, and everybody was there for. And then other times it comes out when everyone is distracted and off on doing things. And it really has no reflection on the work. Totally. There's something in the zeitgeist that just has us our attention to other places. You just have to, and Joey Mullen should know this. Don't take everything so personal.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Joey. I got it. He takes a lot of things personal. Well, he's young and he's earnest. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that what it is? Partedly. His nickname that Kira Soltanovich has given him is four ounce because we went to a steakhouse. He came on the road with me and went to his steakhouse. I was going to give him the riches of the road. And he ordered a four ounce steak, which we didn't even know they made him that size. No, I didn't know that was on the kids menu? I believe so.

So he's a nickname now. Presid trust somebody. Right with silverware who was asking for a four-ounce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously.

Yeah. That's like the first anecdote I ever shared on a podcast. I was like, oh, this will be funny, you know. And I've just been ruthlessly beat down for it. Yeah. That's what happened with Baba Bowie. That's right. He thought it was cute.

Yeah. Oh, don't forget about it by tomorrow. 60 years later. And then your intro goes into, the story, the epic story. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of your depression.

My great depresh. Your great depresh. Yes. And which everybody knows from your great special and stuff that, of what the Great Depression was. But man, every time, and you do such a good job, I mean, it's not even that. It's poetry because you kind of distill it down to this moment and then go back into why we're writing this book because I had to go back home after.

being in trouble and live at home for a while. And here is my experience, my memories of going through childhood and it goes from all through school. Yeah. Which is such a great format. Oh, thanks. It made me nervous because I know when my books are all essays. Yeah.

So I can shuffle the deck. Sure. And if I, if something's really strong, all of a sudden, I can pump it up to the front of the book. Right. If something's, eh. Okay. So I'm troubling.

They're all great. Yeah. But if one's less than... I can jump it to the back. Yeah. But you're locked into first through tenth, kindergarten through... I mean, kindergarten through 12. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, the thing with that was that it was... There were certain grades that are kind of the same as the grade before. Uh-huh. So I combine eighth and ninth and sixth and sixth because they were essentially that you're the same type of person. Yeah. grades. So I combined those because otherwise it would have been kind of a repeat. I wasn't much different a person. So I had my, my editor was very helpful in that because initially I was

like, no, I got to write every grade. And he says, you're not, these stories aren't different. They should be combined into one, into one chapter. You're the same person. And you just, you change so much in those, in those grades. And there are so many firsts, first Hebrew school day, first friend, first crush and all these things. And then eighth and ninth is just pretty much, well, this is the same chapter. There's nothing really to distinguish it in terms of maturity and evolution. Interesting.

That's really cool. It really made me contemplate how some ways, how grown up we are at such an early age. Yeah. Like when you talk about, The stuff in, like, kindergarten and first and second, like, there is very mature, uh, reflections, but I know they're not really reflections. They were things that you felt at the time.

Like when your first crush on that girl. Yeah. I had one like kindergarten first grade. This girl, Nancy. And I was head over heels. I was aware this was a love affair. Yeah. Who weren't doing anything but wrestling in the leaves.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was. Yeah. And then at one point you talk about. in like second grade, I think, or first about defending your father's honor as a Jewish kid. Yeah. And just, and I know that love affair and the idea that I have something to defend in this family lineage, that's not you as now just putting it out.

Like you felt that at that age. And you're this little kid. Yeah. We all are these little. Yes. Like when you see these little kids and you, you know, they can't hold a fork. They're like Joey with a steak knife. It's very, it's in some ways so feeble, but yet there's this.

Yeah, but it's also guilt I carried through my 30s, where I looked back on it. And it just, it was, it was very helpful to go through these things with my therapist as they would come up as the grades went along. That was a really special section of my therapy in that I could bring these, these events that I had felt. so bad about and he pointed out just what you pointed out that you were a child yeah you shouldn't have been expected and the the lucky thing about writing in in the style that we write about our childhood is that we didn't have the words as a child but now we can put them in to a child's head and and it's kind of comedic right that was really that was really helpful and i think we have Flobert to thank for that

who was like the first person to do narration where it wasn't like a play where it was people would have thoughts and things like that so I've never been able to get through Madame Bovary or anything like that but I understand that he was very influential and we're all

driving on the highway he created but it was really helpful to analyze these things with the vocabulary of an adult but the mind of a child that was really That was really helpful in finding the kind of the voice for the memoir. It's so interesting.

It's really, you kind of freaked me out in that, like, if I reflect on certain things that were big, like certain events that haven't were super humiliating. Yeah. And then I start filling it in. You seem to have a real memory. Yeah. Like in the classroom stuff, like, that you knew in like 10th grade or 9th grade. that who sat behind who? Yeah.

And what third period was? Yeah. And like that kind of detail. Oh, yeah, yeah. Was that, do you always carry that or was it jarred by? I mean, part of it was I was intersecting with a lot of the people and events that I grew up with while I was living at home with my mom. And there's one other kid who I could go to to corroborate a lot of these things who remember. and he would sometimes add things and expressions and things that his name is Phil Murphy and he was

really, really helpful. But what people, I think, overestimate my memory, I've been telling a lot of these stories for a really long time or thinking about them. And in a lot of cases, writing them down, wanting to be able to tell them on stage. And I just didn't have the platform for some of these stories because there's a lot of, there's a lot of pipe, right? That you have to get out that you don't have time for it, a 15. minute seller spot. Yeah. So this was,

this was really helpful in getting a lot of these stories out and they, they would develop, but also a lot of them were attached to either trauma or great joy. So that I had fond memories of it and I've reflected on it a lot. Yeah. When you're depressed, there's a lot of regrets and there's a lot of remembering nostalgically things that happen and you're, you're getting no solace because you think, oh, I'll never feel that great again. and why can't I go back in time?

So it's just a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, that is a blessing and a, and a curse, I think. I've been talking about in my act recently, at several points during my act, I talk about our stupid brain, how it's just, oh my gosh. It's just, it seems it's prior, it's primary objective is to collect all the insults ever hurled at you and play them over and over. Wow. Wow. Wow. Oh, that's so insightful. And I keep going back to it. about like it literally is our own device. Yeah. That is the thing that's torturing us. Yeah. The thing I, the thing I don't, and then later on I talk about, like in the beginning I talk

about it in kind of a trivial way. And then I talk about it in a little bit of a deeper way. As someone who has never gone to therapy. You remarkably evolved for somebody who hasn't gone to therapy. What does therapy, I mean, what is the primary objective of therapy? Is it for, this is a huge question, but is it, like, I'm trying to feel it out because I'm talking to my audience. And the part of me, because I'm just, my wires and chemistry set happen to balance out. Yeah.

I just got lucky. Yeah. So I can sit back and say, I really shouldn't. pay that much attention to myself. Like I don't even, I don't, why should I bring another stranger in to deal with what I've got going on because it's not a lot going on. Okay. There's stuff, there's heavy stuff, but it's not.

Yeah. But I know it's wrong when I'm saying it on stage to some degree because it is so valuable for so many people. Yeah. What is the primary? That is a great and broad question. I think one of the things. is something you just talked about, which is your,

one of the most frustrating aspects of depression is this thing that you could, in certain cases, use your brain. You could use to get yourself out of situations is telling you things that are false. But it's, it might be one of those cases where the medium is, is a trusted one. And it's your brain. You're like, well, it has to be true.

Why would it be lying to me? But certain things that it was telling me when I was sick was that I was worthless and I was evil and and and and and despised and and and you come on of it and you're like, all right, I'm not perfect, but I'm not yeah, I'm not evil incarnate. Right. And so you have this objective brain in the room with you who in that. case, I will say when it got to the worst, the therapist was doing, was unable to do anything. It was the equivalent of trying to rewire a house while it's on fire. Right. So it was the chemicals that got me out of that and to a point where my therapist could say,

okay, the reason you are so upset about these hecklers and people talking during your act is because when you were seven and putting on a magic show, your brothers were pointing out how you were doing the tricks during the, during the magic show. And if they were nine or ten, it would be shitty, but forgivable, but they were 20 and 22. They should have known better.

And then, so you're getting this, this corroborating person who's saying, no, that was fucked up that your father made you repeat the first grade, despite the fact that you were really good student and taller than everybody. Right. And so, and I, I did, Maron yesterday and Maron talked about this thing and he's so heavy but he

he talked about this thing where these people you need to trust that they have your best interest and that they are almost infallible are doing really fucked up things and the only thing your brain can do really is say it's me and so you develop that but then if you have a therapist at some point along the line they can say no that that's pretty fucked up

I've talked to people and generally fathers don't have their really good students, repeat the first grade and claim it's because they, my father's claim was that I know you, but he would come over three hours a week on a Sunday, and most of it was watching the Pat's, the Patriots, get their asses kicked. Just punting every six seconds. I know you. Yeah, he says, I know you.

You don't know a lot of the parents back then. I'm not, I'm not. No, yeah. Didn't know their kids. No. They were just these, these. It wasn't about knowing us. Yeah.

What did Eddie Vedder saying, Jeremy was, Jeremy was something his mommy couldn't wear. Right. Which is, oh my gosh, that guy. The older I get, the more poetic, I find. I know. These guys were just, we, it was over our heads at 19, but these guys were really saying some,

some deep, meaningful things. I get the chills sometimes listening to Chris Cornell or Cobain. It's just like, oh, my word. It's what they were. saying yes and if anything they were underrated yeah because we just i don't know i just loved them because they rocked totally they moved you yes yes didn't know why didn't know why and they were viscerally were connecting with us and then they were also like uh uh frost level poets yeah and you see it as as a 50 year old man you're like what was that's what that lyric man yeah yes i didn't

even care to decipher i wasn't it wasn't trying to figure out what they were saying really wasn't it. No. It was just entertain us. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, this whale.

Oh my gosh. They just. No. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. I find even with like music's that interesting that way and not even just like the grunge any era. Yeah.

You listen to stuff from like the from like the 40s and they're like do to do to do do to do to do. And you listen to those words and you're like, holy cow. Oh. Yeah. They were deep. Deep, yes. And the new, understood romance and love. Right.

And, and, yeah. And it's, it's something that's so frustrating about comedy because the best of it doesn't hold up. Not only does the best of it not hold up. There's just, there's just a, the, the reaction we're asking for back from this roomful of human beings is this little sliver. Right. It's just the laugh of the, just, no, I know. I can't, you can take music and you can, you can bring them to their knees. You can have them sobbing and screaming and chanting.

Music just has so much more language to it without the lyrics. Music has so much more language to it. And as much as you feel and want to convey, it comes down to da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-ha. And even if your audience loves you and gives you space and gives you some line to pull out, not that long. No. Don't stay out there that long. No.

No. Yeah. It's extraordinary. And that's been one of the great things in my recovering from that deep depression was during my depression. Music could make me cry, but it couldn't make me do anything else. It couldn't make me feel joy or reflect or cry in a grieve. good way cry from happiness or or feeling for for empathy but but now that I'm happy I've I've man getting music packing and being able to read again that was the other thing I wasn't able to

read for two and a half years so I've been I've been reading more than ever now so I've told you the guilt I had before you're depressed right with the book selection that I oh yeah yeah yeah yeah but that didn't that didn't have anything no that's not I'm making sure but I was like it can't be I remember you just looking at me like, what the fuck was that? I gave you Nusguards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was too much for me. And there was one horrible book.

Yeah. It means great. But one horrible one about dumping out the father's, after the father dies, yeah, clearing out his house. Yeah. And it's really heavy. Oh, yeah, really heavy. And I remember just standing outside the cellar and you just going to like,

what did you do that to me for? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just send me a symphony of blue notes. But he was such a, he was so prolific and so deep that it was like, Oh my gosh, but also innovative in terms of his structure of those, those books. Like he, like, he, he, he, he, he flow-beard the novel. Completely.

Yeah. Completely. Yeah. The level of detail. Yeah. The idea of realism, he made a, He made a zag, man. Yeah.

It's really, it's really, it's really, it's really impressive and really rewards the avid reader. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was one of the only times I, you know, those books were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is there six of them? At least.

And, uh, or maybe at most. Yeah, I think it's at most. Yeah. Uh, I came home from a flight. I read it like most of the flight. came home and went right to the lounge chair. That is, my kids are running around.

That is rare because a flight is an endurance. And reading during a flight is, because it's almost like the driveway moment where if something's really good on the radio, you're in the drive. Like Stern used to be like that for me in certain podcasts. But, but yeah, to do that with a book, that's not easy because it's also a brain drain.

Yeah, you're getting exhausted. Yeah. I literally, I remember doing, walking out some of the lounge chair in the backyard after saying a quick hello and just continuing to read and just sitting there with it and I was like remark like your brain separating from itself. Yeah. As I'm reading, my other brain is saying how bizarre that we're out here still reading this book. What's happening right now?

Yeah. Very unusual. No, it's great. Really unusual. Did you ever read a prayer for Owen Meaney? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Irving.

Yeah, I'm rereading that. Are you? And so I, I forget who recommended. rereading. It might have been an Instagram book purveyor or something talking about how important it is to reread, especially books. Because I reread the Great Gatsby during this book

because I had read it in 11th grade. And you read it so much differently. Yeah. Especially when it's been that big a gap. Because I read a prayer for Owen Meaney when I was 18 years old. And so I identified with Owen and Johnny. And now I'm reading it. I'm connecting

with the stepfather. And I'm connecting also with the religious aspect of it, which I think I was put off by, being at a Catholic college and also having so much Hebrew school and everything, I was like, I don't really vibe with the spiritual aspect of it the way he wants me to.

And now I really, I really am. Really? I think faith is this thing that evolves a lot like humans. It's interesting. It's very interesting. I don't know if it's tied. I asked Marin this last week, actually. I said, do you, as you're getting older,

yeah, because you know he talks about all the tragedy that he went through. Oh, I know with Lynn. And being mystical, like in a special. Did you see a special? Yes. It's really great. Really good. Yeah.

I think it's his best. Yeah. I agree. I think it's his funniest. I don't know if it's his best. I mean, all of his, but this one made me laugh out loud so much. Oh, yeah, me too.

But still in the heavy context. When he was doing that, that acting workshop thing within the thing. It's so funny. So funny. And a little. It's silly. Yeah, I know. He was really, really, he didn't lose any of the gravitas from the subjects he was talking about.

No, not at all. At all, but he just got, he approved it his craft and it's funny. Yes. But anyway, I asked him, because it seems like it's, you know, we're all playing from the same brochure in a lot of ways. I said, is there a, do you find yourself getting more religious? Because he said he got more mystical after he went through his tragedies and would look for signs and things like that. I do that too. I do that.

I've done that my whole life. Interesting. But I feel like at this age, there's starting to, again, from the brochure, this isn't a new territory. You get to this age and there's like a, you're starting to lean in. I think it's tied to your mortality.

You're starting to pay attention to faith and whatever your God thing is. Right. Like there's a, I think your antenna is, your radio dot. is starting to shh-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h.

Do you find that? I mean, I've been doing it my entire life. I've been obsessed with my death. I mean, the great thing that I noticed recently was, and I noticed that when I was writing the book, at every point during the book, those years that the book covers, I was convinced that I would die by my own hand.

Mm-hmm. Because I was overwhelmed by so much, and the mystery seemed to be at 11 and 17 is what will be the crisis that will undo me? Will it be a divorce? Will it be the loss of a loved one? Will it be a failure in business? Something is going to undo me. And now I think, oh, I'm just going to die.

Hopefully I won't be murdered, but I'm probably going to be, I'm going to die the way most people do. And hopefully it'll be in my sleep in my early hundreds. but I think and you happen to ask me this question while I'm reading Denial of Death. Have you ever read that? Okay. I'm going to recommend it, but also tell you that it's not easy, but it's worthwhile. And that I had to reread one of the chapters. And basically the chapter that I knew was very important and it was hard to grasp.

And I think I have kind of a handle on it is about Kierkegaard, being in the 1800s, really the first psychoanalyst. He predated Freud. And what he was saying, and I don't know if I buy into this, but Mark Maron buys into it, and I trust his brain. So what Caregarde was saying and with the idea of this book is that the greatest anxiety in our life is our death and our entire character and mindset between the time we realize that we are mortal, which is

about four or five or whenever it is. And our demise is that we are in such a deep denial and try to defy it. And all our energy, psychic energy, is going towards putting away this thing that for some reason we're the only species who is both an animal

and aware of their demise. And this is a heavy burden to carry. And it drives people either to depression or, and I don't believe this because I think it's chemical, but schizophrenia and everything in between the neuroses caused by this. This, he calls it a paradox, is everything, and I don't believe it's everything. I believe it's contributing because smart people are saying this. And he says, and then he comes to the conclusion that the way out is not to be a hero

and defied death by going into war. and and he says the only way to to find some sort of solace and comfort is through faith. And when he said faith, I was like, had me, then you lost me. Well, when you mean by faith, though, when you read that. In Kierker God's case, it was, it was believing in a higher power or God or Christ. In my case, my faith is constantly wavering, and I would say I believe in a universe that call it God, that is in some way ordered, and that it's possible that there is a purpose dictated by this. But I embrace the existentialist, which is there's no meaning. It's all absurd. You find meaning in your act. actions.

And as I always feel like, as long as I feel like I reached my potential, I can go and I won't be kicking and screaming. Right. Yeah. And so that's what I got out of the first 180 pages of denial of death. So that's my long answer to how I think about death. I've asked my mother, who's 90, and she says, I just don't think about it. I know I don't have much time left, but I don't.

I don't dwell on it, and I've been blessed with 90 years. And I think that's, I think that's, that's very healthy. But also, I don't think that my brain can turn it off that much. It seems like my ideas on death are sort of this governor on joy, which is that I'll be at my highest moments. And then I'll think, oh yeah, and then I die. At the end, no matter how great these things, like just in this, that my friend enjoys my book. Yeah. This is such a great moment.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, but then we become dust. Well, I was thinking that, too. I was thinking Norm McDonald now because nothing frightened him more than death. And that he seemed to, in his way, go out with a lot of, I guess, I don't know how to put how he did it. He just didn't share it with anybody. And some would say that's strength. Others would say, why didn't he let us in? But he went out in his own terms, which I think is.

very noble. Yeah. No, it is really noble. It's, yeah. When you go, when you say, when he says faith, that part of my, part of my faith journey recently is not tying it so much to, like my knee jerk would have been, years ago would have been when they say faith, that means, oh, I've got to be a Catholic or I've got to be.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's what I have, that's what I tie it into faith. But I think it can be interpreted as something larger and less concrete. Yeah, faith in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Faith in life. Yeah. Faith in the journey. Faith in. Yeah. In the, in the universe in our place. Right. Yeah. You're part of the. As Mori Schwartz said in Tuesdays with Mori, we're part of the ocean. We're not just a wave. Right. And can I share an idea regarding Tuesdays with Mori? Yes, absolutely. I am certain Mori dreaded Tuesdays.

Here comes the sports writer who's going to cash him long after I am gone. Here he comes again. I'm exhausted and here he comes again. The snorer with his yellow legal pads and big pens. Why do Jewish writers love yellow legal pads and big pens? Just drain me. Just hook up an IV. Yeah, how about we make it every third Tuesday with Maury?

There is that thing. Yeah, you know, Mark, I was thinking I didn't say it to him, but watching his thing, especially because it was so funny, was. There should be a podcast where people who were just on the Mark Marin podcast go on to discuss. interpret and go through a wish I would have said. Because he told me this story about somebody, a mean person who wrote him in the email saying, calling him a pussy and saying that he shouldn't allow himself to be bullied.

And this guy said when he was seven years old, somebody was bullying him and punched him in the face. And that made me the hero of my own story. And then in the car ride home I wanted to say to Mark, yeah, this guy's so happy. he reaches out to celebrities and tries to shame them about their childhoods. That's how together this asshole is. So fuck him.

And I bet he's exaggerating how much of a hero he is in his own story. I bet he drinks himself to sleep every night. Oh, my gosh. No, Mark is nothing other than thought-provoking. Yeah, but he lets in these lunatics who are emailing him and lets him get in his head. And it's just like, oh, gosh, Mark, you don't... Boundaries, right? Yeah, but what I was going to say, when I was with him,

watching a special, it was like he's a more visceral Woody Allen. Like, he had that Woody Allen thing where the... And the way you talk and the way you write and what you're saying right now about, like, oh, enjoy my book, but I'll be dead tomorrow. That's very Woody Allen-ish also. Oh, interesting. But those, my three guys growing up that I really connect. acted with in comedy and sadly one of them's dead one of them's sick and one of them is is a pariah but but Woody

Allen Richard Lewis and and Gary Shandling right I really I was like oh these guys are Jewish men who don't feel great about themselves but have this weird confidence to put on a show yeah which which it's it's so interesting and and when you talk about that in the book when you talk about when you're figuring out where to sit in the cafeteria yeah and and and and the clicks and you know can you sit with the burnouts can you sit with the whatever and you you mentioned something about like the the kids from the that you knew kid you knew from the jewish yeah from jewish jcc basketball yeah and and you said something in it I'm paraphrasing.

You probably don't remember anyway. We're all paraphrasing. I read it all. Yeah. I read that book 40 times while I was writing it, right? Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. And what's crazy is when you go on interviews and you're like, people bring stuff up and you're like, what's he talking about right now? Oh, because sometimes you haven't read it in nine months because you wrote it so long ago. So I'm reading it.

And sometimes I'll be like, oh, this is pretty good. And then other times like, oh. Well, it's always something to work out. Yeah, yeah, totally. You could make it better. Yes. Yes. As I was reading the audio book, I was saying to the engineer,

oh, can I rewrite this now? Is it too late? I know. I know. Yeah. Which actually, I want to get too off track, but the master stroke for when you don't need it to be out and you don't need to go on tour and you don't need it for whatever, take that last book that you're going to write and write it for 10 years. Oh, yes.

Just keep. You know what I mean? Absolutely right. Right. You can always be improved. Wouldn't that be a thing? Oh, that is something. You take off, you leave it to them at that point.

Yeah. But I think you need to be secure enough in your publishability. Yes. Yeah, you'd have to keep other things. You still have to be. People still want to see Gary. Yeah. Yeah.

But I mean, man, if you could, because now it's like I got a deadline. Yeah. And I got to want this out because I want to write another one or whatever. But how much better would it get if you could just keep working on? I know. Green Chef is a CCOF certified meal kit company. Green Chef makes eating well easy with plans to fit every lifestyle, whether you're keto, paleo, vegan, vegetarian, gluten-free,

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I'm going to get my, maybe because we have an in with them, maybe I can get my nephew Russell. Write that down, Joey. See if we can get my nephew Russell some green chef. I'll even throw in a couple bucks. But this is a guy that wants to dial in. He desperately wants to eat. eat well. He desperately wants to lose weight, have a better life. And I keep telling him and he wants

to do it, but he just doesn't even know how to cook. He has no, he just takes, he hears turkey burgers are good and he just throws turkey chop meat in a frying pan. So if I can get this to Russell, he'll be so happy. Thank you, Grinch, chef. Um, cafeteria. Cafeteria, thank you. And you make, you mentioned that going and sitting with the kids from the JCC. Yeah. You said something about these kids, these Jewish basketball, lanky teenagers. Yeah. But they had a quiet confidence about them. Yes.

They were themselves. And they were oddballs. And I find that one of the most remarkable things about everyone Jewish in my life. Oh, interesting. I always felt like, because I grew up in, I was Catholic and we had, but our school was a lot of Jewish kids, so we kind of went to bounce between families. And I remember at a young age, realizing the Jewish people just have life kind of dialed in.

That's interesting. Like they know how to grieve. Yeah. They know how to celebrate. They know how to, and there's some similarities, but they just, for the big questions, they always seemed to have what you were describing of those kids, like kind of a knowledge of it.

But then it also manifests itself into the most erotic of my friends. Right. Yeah. It's a weird thing. I mean, there are a couple of things that popped out to me when you said that. One was that I had a theory for why these kids were so confident. It was because they didn't rely entirely on the high school. for their social standing.

They went to Jewish summer camp every summer where the average-looking Jewish kid, the average-looking person who's Jewish at a high school is the best-looking, most athletic person at a Jewish summer camp because they call all the most talented people from the pool. And the other things, so they had already kissed girls before I had

because they were hitting T-ball at the Jewish summer camp. But the other thing was, within every culture there are people who are just like us and we see it we're very lucky in that if you play sports

or you're a musician or you're an artist you're going to intersect with the broader culture if I'm an accountant I'm mostly going to see white guys but as a comedian and as an athlete I became friendly with black people and Hispanic people and Asian people and all these things and we're very fortunate but my wife is a black woman and I said the same thing about her and family in terms of dialed in on grieving.

Their funerals are much more cathartic and a celebration of life. And even the terms they use the vocabulary, it's a going home service. And it's just, it really, it's a different vibe to the Jews and the Christians and Catholics. and the other thing is that there's a, there's a, it's, and it's probably just a northeastern thing, but there's a, I don't want to call it a cynicism, but I think this is a good example. When I told, or when I told my mother-in-law, Miss Jeannie that I had finished my book, her reaction was, we are blessed. Gary, we are blessed.

And when I told my mother, I had finished my mother, and I had told her a million times, but she needed to know this. She didn't say we are blessed or mazzletop or anything. She said, and who's the publisher? And it's one of those things where as it's happening, you're like, well, this is a bit. And also, she's not a member of the literati.

She's not an extensive reader. She might know Random House. She definitely doesn't know the imprint of McMillan that my book was published under. And it's also one of these things where you probably learn it with different people in your life. There are certain joys you can't share with everybody because they just won't get it. You don't tell your mother you performed at the Carnegie Hall. You're not going to tell her about the funny bone in Syracuse.

Even when you tell her about the Carnegie Hall, she'll say, did people come? Yeah, she said did you sell out? Was it a sellout? Yeah, because she needs to add that. Because she's running a little podcast of her own. It's just phone calls where she's telling the people in her life that her son sold out Carnegie Hall. And she's worried. Yeah.

She's like, okay, you finish the book, but now my poor baby's going to be rejected by the world. Oh, my gosh. There was this really interesting story, and I'm not comparing myself in any way to this, but I love this story that Philip Roth told about right before he published Portnoy's complaint. And he was in a cab with his parents, and they were driving. I'm home in New York City. He said to his parents, now, people are going to call you,

and they're going to ask for interviews, and I just want you to know. You can say yes. You can say, no. I don't care. This is fiction. I'm not using you. And he said that his father told him later

that Philip got out of the car, and his mother started crying. And when the father asked him, why are you crying? And she said, because he's deluded. He was Philip Roth at the time. This wasn't his first. book he was he was he was good by columbus was in an enormous sensation and she's he's deluded

oh kills me he's killer god what a giant he is oh my word yeah i mean you read you read him and you're like why do i bother i know yeah it's like maria banford have it i i just i just listen to her book and it's just like oh my i'm glad i didn't listen to it before i wrote mine because i would i would have stopped halfway through. It's like when I used to watch Regan. Yeah. Or a towel. I know.

It's like, oh, geez. Why are we muddling? Why are we muddying the waters by offering our? Yeah. I'll give you a little book story because it's connected to Philip Roth because Philip Roth interviewed this guy and I only discovered it after. So it kind of jogged my memory. But I was, and you're the only person I can tell these stories to.

Oh, good. You and my friend Lou from back home. He's the only other person I talk about reading. He's a lawyer. And so I'm, this summer, I'm at this beach house. And I'm meditating as I do every morning, you know. TM? Yeah.

Yeah, it's excellent, isn't it? It's better than a nap, man. It's a lifesaver. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So much better than a nap. Yeah.

A nap. Try and get to the stage after a nap. Oh my gosh. After TM? And you realize how little of a nap, well, it's just 20 minutes and it is so much more refreshing than an hour and a half. After a nap in the middle. I did it. I made the mistake.

I was so tired. I went for a run when I got to the gig last weekend. Good for you. And I, which was good. But then I came back and I was like, I'm so tired. I'm just napping. Skip the TM. and I naped for an hour and a half and came out in a coma.

Fog. And depressed. Yes. And had to really hydrate just all the tricks. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So anyway, and you know, so when you do TM or anytime you sit quietly with your thoughts, some weird thoughts pop in your head.

So I'm meditating. And the one thing that comes up in my brain is this book with a title, just jokes, just jokes. And, you know, my other book is completed. It's been out for a bit. And I'm thinking, like, where am I going next? Maybe that's it. I'm just filling in the blanks.

Yeah. But I just see this white cover with this thing that says, just jokes. And then it goes off into squirrels and whatever else I was thinking about third grade and what I'm going to eat. Who knows what. So anyway, I pop out after 20 minutes. And I go sit down at the table where my computer

is. I sit at the table and I look over and there's a stack of books right next to the places filled with books and there's a stack of books on the top is Milan Kandara's the book of laughter and forgetting. Wow.

And I'm like, oh, that's kind of weird. You know, the mystical thing that I always kind of like, no, of course. I'm like, there are no coincidence. That's strange. You know, and I don't know him really as much as I read. I don't really know him or these books. So I see the book of laughter and forgetting.

I'm like, oh, that's odd. I was just thinking just books. And I open up my computer and the emails. And the first one is New York Times. Milan Kandera dead at 93. Whoa. Yeah. So I open that up and I start reading that he just passed.

And well, now I don't know why, but I have to read this book. Of course. No, of course. Obviously. Yeah. As busy as he is in the afterlife, he's, he dropped by. No, totally. Right? No, I get that.

And I picked it up and read that one and, and the other big one, the lightness of being. Oh, my gosh. Both of them, giants. I don't know what the, there's no end to the story because I'm still figuring it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Getting what I am out of those books. What do you think you want to do next in terms of your books? It's hard to even say out loud.

You don't have to. I read Stephen Wright's novel, Harold. Oh, yeah? It was awesome. Yeah. Just delightful. Really? Yeah.

The novel is definitely one of the things rambling in my head. I've always wanted to write a novel, but I remember two things. One is in quiz show. Charles Van Doren says you could fill you in. Yankee Stadium with all the world's mediocre novelists. I know novels almost too big a word. Yeah, and I'm picturing... How about just a book?

Yeah, and I'm picturing all the mediocre novelists sitting in Yankee Stadium, and they're not sure why they're there. And then on the scoreboard, it says, hey, mediocre novelists, we decided to see how big a stadium you could fill. Welcome to mediocre novelist night. Here's your bobble-haired. Yeah, and it's just, I don't know if you've ever watched that movie, Quixot show, with Ray Fines and, and, um, Herb Stemple is played by John Terturo. Yeah, a tremendously kikey performance by, by John Toto.

Oh, he does a great, he does a great stereotypical Jew. He did it in Barton Fink and in, and in, he played the Schmada in, in Miller's Crossing, the Cohen Brothers movie. Oh my gosh. Man, that's underrated. Goodfellas gets all the credit from that year for mob movies. But that was a great gangster movie, one of the greatest of all times. The high hat. The high hat.

The vocabulary, I mean, it was, oh my gosh, it's just a, it's an incredible movie that holds up better. And this will be controversial. It holds up better than the Godfather because the Godfather has some clunker. where you're just like my friend and I, you know Mike Bonfiglio, the director, we talk about how Tessio, on top of being a very strong gangster,

he also has this remarkable ability to remember the different toilets throughout the restaurants all over Manhattan. He's able to know where to hide a gun in various toilets. And we're just like, this is so absurd. It's so absurd.

And Don Quarren, Or Leon insists on being told of bad news immediately. So instead of calling him or wiring him, I'm going to take a flight from Los Angeles to New York. And then it's just a, it's a beautifully shot film, but there are so many holes in it. Whereas Miller's crossing, it's like, oh, my gosh, I think this is how they would have behaved. Oh, so incredible. When he's walking with Titooro in the woods. Oh, yes, right?

Yes, the groveling. Oh, my God. The shot of the trees up above. It's incredible. So insane. Yeah. How do we get to there? The cafeteria?

No. It was... The Jews who were so confident and... Malam Kandara. The thing that you want to do next. Oh, the next thing. That you're not sure you want to... Oh, yeah. My thing is not...

There's no... There's no part of me that thinks great novel. Right. Yeah. But a funny book about gnomes. Oh, that's funny. Or... Or I just...

I just think the funny short story, like you do so great with those in the New Yorker. Those are so strong. Well, that's the thing is like, it's not far from the stuff in the books. It's all essays. Yeah, but the intellect required to put together those stories because there's absurdism, but they're also based in reality. and they're just the perfect

it's also the perfect place for them and then New Yorker because every time I read them like oh yeah this is exactly where it's just yeah yeah well that's kind of like the New Yorker is kind of the late night talk shows for comedy is the way I kind of look at it but Dick Cavett but they yeah but they in that they make you continue training oh okay yeah yeah yeah yeah oh right you're always like

Oh, I see what you mean. I want to be part of that club. I want to get more in there. I'd like to be more prolific and put, like I. Yeah, but how many of those people are also nightclub comics? Right. Yeah. Right.

So I don't know. But I mean, there's something, you know, again, not comparing. But that's a great way to look at it, though, as something because you, I mean, I thought everyone has been great. But you must feel yourself getting better at it and it becomes a little bit easier, which is, which is, which is another great thing to learn and share with our friend Joey is that in every era of our life, we've come across something. We're like, how the hell am I going to get past it? How am I going to figure this out?

And we always have. And so as you get older, it's important to spend less time in that period where you don't think you can do it and go right to, I'll figure it out rather than the, because that's where procrastination, comes from and either waiting to the last minute or being so paralyzed that you pass on things or don't even undertake them. There were so many times in my life where I said, I want to write a book and I talked myself out of it every time and I regret it. Yeah. There's also the thing of, it's kind of tricky because there's also the part where I always

thought, well, I have to be worthy of it. Yes. I have to get good enough and be worthy enough to have a book or be on the Tonight Show or do whatever. It reminds me of that movie adaptation, right? Mm-hmm. Where they were two brothers and one was neurotic and the other one was like, why can't I write a screen? Yeah. Yeah.

You need to be that second guy. You do. Yeah. You really do. And we were. We got into this thing that we were terrible at compared to where we are now and we kept going. And the odds were against us. They're still doing it, and yet we have to relearn that every time we undertake something new.

Yeah. And it's sad. Well, it's not, oh. Yeah, but, you know, well, how much new do we have to do now? No, not that much. Maybe make a film, do something like that. But. But I want to, Chadee and I want to start a family or have a child.

You should. Right, but part of me is like, what if I do as badly as my parents did? Impossible. I couldn't live with myself if I effed up a kid as bad as my parents messed me up. Impossible. That's so good. I always think about that with Fitzsimmons, actually, Greg Fitzsimmons. Right.

Like he had a lot of obstacles thrown at him by his father. Yeah. And he broke the cycle. Yeah. His father got it from his father, from his father, from his father, and his father. Greg was the one. Yeah. Which shows you it can be done.

Fits is something else, man. And he broke the chain. Another tortoise. Yeah. Yeah. And he broke the cycle and raised this beautiful family. Yeah. Who knows nothing but a great couple of parents.

Right. It really is pretty remarkable. Yeah. Okay. So you and I have been going through comedy, our comedy career, literally, 1990. started in 98. No, no, no, 93.

October 11th, 93. October 11th, 93. Yeah. I was June 12th, 93. No way. Yeah. So your birthday's coming up right after you, yeah, in a couple weeks.

So right after you graduated from college or? No, it was a, um, a year later? Three years later. Oh, okay. Three years later. And, um, so yeah, we're at the same mark. 30 years. 30 years.

Yeah. And when I read, reading, reading your book. It's so funny because you as a child have your little comedy antenna up very early Oh my gosh, as I did too. Yeah. And it's also, it's, and the funny things happening in the culture were so great. So I just want to off the top of my head go through some of them. Oh, great.

Mickey Mouse. Yep. We both despised him. Despised him, but wrapped in something that we, at the time, I thought I, what's wrong with me? I don't love this guy. No, I know. but he was really not very funny No, never was

funny. I don't I don't remember a single thing he said. Never mind a funny thing he said. I don't remember the single Yeah, yeah He was just useless Whereas Bugs Bunny is just

We can rattle off Nine different episodes in which We, oh my gosh, when he's In the argument with the gangsters But he's also a cop and Mugsy and oh my gosh it's incredible going into the grave goodbye old friend fooling Elmer Fudd into the burying himself alive oh my gosh and the barber of Seville the rabbit of Seville and oh my gosh yeah with his hand and oh my gosh a comedic genius yes a comedic

genius versatile and and as we were just saying comedy doesn't hold up Bugs holds up and it's 80 years old. It really does. It doesn't hold up in the, if you're a young parents would not think it holds up. No, no, no, no. Watching people resolve their conflicts with shooting each other in the face. It should have never been in a time slot where kids could watch it. Here's a cold shovel to the face.

But the kids who were into Mickey and Disney just never vived and it was the Bugs Bunny people. Right. Okay, so you're in the Bugs Bunny camp. So what was your feeling and did you digest and gather up wacky packs? Oh, I loved wacky packs. Those were, yeah, those weren't incredible in it. But it was like a punishment of death if I would have stick them on the walls of the house, which I wanted to all the time. And my mother would go bananas over sticking the wacky packs.

She didn't find them so funny. Pretty, pretty younger. Do you know that the author of the author of Mouse, Art Spiegelman, Uh-huh. Drew Wackybacks. Really? He worked for tops. No.

Yeah. That's one of my favorite pieces of trivia about the Holocaust. Because that as a child is... Mine too, that. As a child, all you wanted was... And the reason you're attracted to it is people are taking this everyday bullshit and twisting it. Yes. We craved irreverence.

That's what we loved in. Bugs Bunny and we were so sick and tired of these goddamn commercials that were lying to us. Why were we tired at five? Because we, we, I think we were very mature. We hated being lied to and condescended to. And knew it was boring at the very least. Yes. So we need someone to take comment and make it vomit.

We liked the older kids and the older kids were put off by, by bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Take comet and make it. vomit. Yes. Or even, it was interesting

because Topps baseball cards was what made Wacky Pax and there was a sticker that was like of a gorilla and it was supposed to be like but they,

I forget what they called Tops, but it was an insult and I remember understanding at least that they were they were making fun of a group

within their category. I didn't know that Wacky Packs made Tops but I was like, look at them taking shots at a competitor.

I was like, they have no fear. And MadMet Magazine was the same thing that I loved. I don't know if Mad holds up, but when they would take... That was my next one. Yeah, take dumps on movies and TV. It was like, oh my gosh.

Yes, it's all... It's all horseshit. All horseshit. Everything's horseshit. Mad Magazine took everything. It took the movies, your TV shows, your parents, your family, your neighbors. Yes. It took ads.

It took everything. Dumb people. Dumb people. And rip them to be friends. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're like, oh, my gosh.

More, more. More, it was on a, you know, Aces of honesty in a desert of slick, smarmy, I was about to mention a comedian. A Jerry Lewis, but on talk shows world, because his films were funny,

but man, was he full of shit? You ever hear the, you know that series of, on comedy that, I forget the guy's name, He did early. Oh, the CDs.

With like Carson and Woody Allen, those were, and Sign Felt, they were incredible. The greatest interviews ever. This guy just loved comedy. Yes, he was like the Judd Apatow of that era. And he loved just, he got them to open up in a relaxed way that was, if any young comic, four ounce, you should be listening to these interviews of the greatest comedy interviews of all time. Yeah. They were our podcasts when we were young in comedy. I remember that we couldn't get.

process and and shop talk anywhere else. You listen to the one on Jerry Lewis. Jerry Lewis is backstage of a TV show that he's making. Yeah. And you get the jaded, the jaded smug. Oh. The Jerry Lankford and King of Comedy.

Yeah. Yeah. The Silk Road backstage. Why are you asking me that question? Oh, Jesus. But he still can't help but pontificate. Oh. Oh.

Oh, it's a gym. Oh, you thought his hair was oily. His persona. Oh, my gosh. It is a gem. Wow. So good. Mad Magazine, when I found that, and it was like, oh, my God, you've been trying to get me to read Archie.

I know. And Casper the Ghost. And Casper the Ghost, whose brothers were a little nasty and you kind of like, you're a comedy adjacent. I rooted for the ghostly trio. Yeah. Yeah, they were cruel. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You had me digesting all this and you didn't tell me that there was Mad Magazine out there when I found it. It's all I would read. Me too. And then I would draw the, I would draw the caricatures.

You would? Yeah, yeah. I loved it. Yeah. And my grandfather and my mother said, well, you stop reading that crap. And my grandfather said, I'll never, God rest of soul. He said, leave him alone. Reading's reading.

Anything he's reading is good. I love it. And I got a free. That's amazing. To go with Mad Magazine. That's amazing. Because it was, it was elevated writing. It was sharp.

It was sharp. Yeah. I literally was thinking about it. Especially for a kid. I was like, are they still doing? Are they, I know a lot of them have died. Yeah. Recently, I think Al Jaffe passed away.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. But I wonder if they're still coming out with new episodes, with new, uh, because I mean, everything's so right. I think so, but I couldn't swear it to. I know. I couldn't swear to it. I remember seeing. Gaffigan, I think, was on the cover.

No way. Once. Well, Seinfeld was, but I think Gaffigan, too. That's cool. That is really cool. Oh, my gosh. That's better than HBO special or Netflix special. Of course.

How many people have their face on Mad Magazine? That's incredible. That's a good one. It's better than the Rolling Stone. So you... Which is nice. Which is nice. So you were going to...

You were going to... I wanted to see if you wanted to do my show in New York, but you're... busy banging out a lot of sets are you in a place now of a brand new set that you're going out on tour with yeah where are you at yeah i i shot a special with my last tour in in june and toronto which i don't know if you've ever shot anything in toronto the audiences are extraordinary oh really yeah i think you love it um i played the great hall in toronto who nice about 300 seats like i said it was easy to fill in a day and yeah so um which i'm very grateful for. I'm not saying that's...

No, it's great. That's something that's a layup or anything like that. Anyhow. That's great. So then I wanted to... I didn't... When we came up in comedy, it was the era of comedians having their acts typed up and bound. And so I didn't want to do that

with the book. I wanted to write a memoir rather than do that. Right. Also, it's not acceptable anymore. Back then, it was like they'd take anything and they could from a famous comedian but then I was like well what's the difference between just doing jokes from the book then the people are going to read it and say oh he just I just paid for this twice so I I took

stories that didn't fit for the book and then expounded on the time period that I grew up in and some of the ideas from the book so I don't want to say pretentiously I was inspired by the book it's it's just from the same time period as the book stories and things like that so that I feel like the show will augment it because there's also the idea that some people will read a chapter of their book but it's like I'm not David Sedaris people aren't going to stand for that they're expecting my stand up they won't stand up yeah and man what a great thing for Sedaris oh my gosh but he's so good at his shows have you ever been to one of this oh it's awesome yeah it's awesome you'll I love him I loved him before I went and afterwards

I was like oh my gosh I love him even more And he has it in his contract, because I looked into that they can't close down until he's met with everybody who wants to meet him. And so he signs, and he gives you some personal time. I mean, he's something else. And he's not young. I mean, the endurance is really, really impressive. But it's a real show that he puts on and his sister, Amy, came by and spoke a little bit. It was awesome.

It was at the King's Theater in Brooklyn. So he comes out and he's got his podium. Yeah, he's got his podium and he does some things that he's working. He's working on, and then he does the little bit from the book, and it's just, it's just awesome, because he's just so lovable. As he's going, he's editing that next book. Sure. Yeah.

So great. But also he has something that is kind of, I forget what the outlet for it was. I think it might have been CBS Sunday morning, but remember how you do the things where you say, I was thinking, like, that, that piece. I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so he does a version of, not of your thing, but the equivalent in time and how long it takes to do it.

It's really, it's really good. So he'll do ones that he's working on for CBS Sunday morning. Oh, very cool. It's just really, really cool. I mean, it's such a master's stroke because you do, if you've taken your book out, or if you do any readings or whatever, or any signings, and you quickly see, like what I would take them on live from here, when the book was coming out, I would read some essays, and it quickly gets you to edit it in a way that is like,

oh, shit, this paragraph, they're not going to sit for this. Right. I got to get to that. Wouldn't that be great if you're doing that during the writing of the book? Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, I did try out a lot of the stories that wound up in the books. in my, I do this twice monthly. I do, I put up one comedian, and then I do an hour and a half.

And so I tried out a lot of these ideas and found where funny lines were for the, for the book. Did you pull it out and read it? No, I just, I snuck it in. I would just, and it also helped me, I would listen to it. And then so this is a good sentence for the book. The other thing was it was such a small crowd that there's no way people are going to be like, well, we heard that. If there's one person who said, we already heard that,

I'm fine with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't feel like I want the entire audience to be like, oh, he's using us. It's different. That's the kind of the curse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not just purely a writer.

You're a comedian first. Right, but it's a great problem to have. But I also think it's very, I mean, I can't recommend this enough, is to have somebody who's reading it, not the editor. Yeah. Along after you, because I would send every chapter to Mike Bonfiglio

and he would give me great, notes and I mean he's a great writer and I was about to say in his own right which makes me sound like I'm saying I'm a great writer and so is my but what I'm saying is that he's a he's a director but he's an excellent writer and thinker and and he gave me great feedback and notes and sometimes it's just to say oh yeah keep that that's really funny if you're if you're not sure about something that's a big deal yeah and and you just want somebody who shares your sense of humor and it gives you an idea of because sometimes you're you're choosing references or ideas and you're not entirely sure that it's not unique to you so it's really helpful to have somebody on the outside saying no

no i i get that yeah no no they yeah without having to question it like yeah just if they say okay you it's good you're just no yes yeah that's a huge huge huge a huge relief and then you have something to go to the editor with if the editor says i'm not sure about this and you say no We get it. Yeah. Yeah. All right, two more things. Okay.

We have time for two more things. Do we? We should, right? We know where we're at. Okay, two more quick things because I don't want you to be late. No, it's fine. When you were talking about Owen Meaney, going back and rereading that. Yeah.

Because that's so interesting because it means so much to a young person. Yeah. And to get the perspective, you put a quote in, no, you don't put a quote. You talk about, oh, I think you thank something with Vonnegut. Vonnegut, you and we've always talked about Vonnegut. Yeah. Do you go back and reread Vonnegut ever? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm always reading a Vonnegut book. And then I go to the end and then I start again from player piano. So I'm always reading something by Vonnegut. Yeah. Because I race through them like in college and right after. Right. And then I haven't really gone back. Oh, that's interesting because I've read all of them at least twice,

sometimes four or five times, like within the case of Breakfast of Champions and Slaughterhouse Five. And my favorite is Sirens of Titan. Oh, yeah. So I've read Sirens of Titan, I think, five times. Oh, wow. And I get something every single time. And it's just, it's so comforting that there's this guy who gets it.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Isn't it funny? we're looking at wacky packs when you're young and then Vonnegut when you're older. Yeah. You're really looking to him for the same thing. Did you see the documentary about Kurt Von. Okay, so the guy, I can't remember is Robert Whitey from, he produces or directs Curbure Enthusiasm.

He did a documentary of Kurt Vonnegut, and they had become friends because as a student in high school, he had written Vonnegut a letter. Okay, so he interviews John Irving, who wrote Prayer for Owen Meaney and took Vonnegut's class at the Iowa writer's workshop and he said something that I loved and I thought about so frequently because I read a book

that collected Vonnegut's ideas on writing called Pity the Reader, which I highly recommend. It collected everything he ever said about writing in any place. So anyhow, John Irving said something and this was so great. He said, it's not easy to be easy to read.

And the thing that a lot of people deride Vonnegut about is that it can't be that great because it was so easy to read. Stephen King, too. Yeah. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Stephen King, I mean, he also gets downgraded because he's so prolific.

Like it must be so easy. Yeah. He's just cranking this out. And I dare anyone to read it and not be turning the pages as quickly as possible. Oh, my gosh. I read that Mr. Mercedes and I couldn't stop. Insane. Yeah.

The guy. Yeah. Any, any, it's so true. I mean, but that's the thing with all great art. I mean, with great comedy, if you watch somebody, it seems like, oh, anyone can do this. Yes. Right. Yeah, hopefully.

The other question is too big. Why? Because we only have seven minutes left. Let's try it. All right. This book is, we have so many parallels in our life. Yeah. We, all this stuff that we're talking about growing up at the same time.

Yeah, yeah. Starting comedy at the same time. Yeah. There is a, there is a break. because I was raised Christian. Yeah. And you were raised Jewish. Right.

And it's pretty remarkable that at that early age, Judaism, like, you start to become aware of what it is and why are people even insulting this and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a, what a divergent path, not due to anything other than how, where our stardust gathered up in whose house we landed. Oh, wow, that's a good way to put it.

Yeah. Do you think we would be completely different people if it was switched? Oh, it's just that Judaism was a thing that put me into certain boxes and that I spent three days a week for three hours each time in a Hebrew school with a bunch of people

who were considered misfits and that I didn't fit in with because I wasn't in and this is, I don't know if you remember this from growing up but if you didn't like the same type of music as somebody, they had no use for you. And also I had this thing where if something was super popular with people I didn't really care for,

I resisted it. So I didn't get into rush until I was in my 30s because the kids who were into rush when I was growing up were so shitty to me. I was like this. And then I find out this band, was a band from misfits and these fucking misfits

had to push me out of their clan. I could have enjoyed my youth some if I had been able to embrace Rush. But I think that that I was always

drawn to like-minded thinkers. So my one of my best friends growing up was a Jewish kid, but another one was somebody who was raised Catholic by a mother who taught religious education at the Catholic Church in our community.

And he's the one who gave me a prayer for Owen Meaney. And I don't know that we were the Tom and Gary of that time period in that we were two guys who played on a lacrosse team and were bonding over reading books. And amidst a group of people who were Philistines. And I mean that in the

the sense of the word in that they resisted culture and were ignorant of it. And and and but we were able to there's so much. What I forget about sports is there's so much downtime during practice where you're just standing around and you're talking. Yeah. And so we, we were discussing things that that compared to these other kids, they were elevated. But for us now, it's like, yeah, you should be reading books. Right. But he had this mother who was educated and shared books with him.

and I had this loneliness component, which I filled a lot with books, and so we connected. So I think the biggest separation between you and I was just geography. Yeah. And we would have found each other. Right.

Or somebody like each other no matter what. Yeah. Because these types of things were drawn to like-minded thinkers, I think. Yeah. Very interesting. Well, congratulations. Oh, thanks. I mean, your praise means so much.

so much. I mean that honestly, and obviously, but I just, this made my day. Thank you. This is so great that it worked out. Yeah. All right, Joey, we got it. There you have it, kids. That was the great Gary Goldman. What? Huh? We could have gone for three hours, for sure. In the middle of it, I was like, we're going to go Rogan distance on this one. Then he had to go do an interview. It's all right. We'll get them back in. Great. Go get his book. again, misfit, awkward, growing up awkward in the 80s. I can't wait to read the rest of it. Go to Tompapa.com. Look up all of the dates. I'm everywhere.

We have a huge one, my friends, an NJPack in New Jersey. We've got Toronto coming up. We've got shows in Charleston and Durham. We're going all over the place. And we're bringing books along, so there'll be signings at all of these events. You guys are the best. See you next time.