Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 260 - Keegan-Michael Key

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

This week Keegan-Michael Key joins us at the table! Keegan and Tom take a deep dive into the history of comedy, sketch vs improv, and evergreen jokes. Don't worry they talk about other things too like: bats, aura rings, and living in trees. Enjoy! Check out Keegan's audio book, “The History of Sketch Comedy,” out now! -------------------------- 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:50 Patreon and TomPapa.com Shout Out 0:02:53 Welcome and "The History of Sketch Comedy" Book 0:06:45 Fart jokes 0:09:25 Key & Peele Substitute teacher sketch 0:12:52 Elle Key's many talents 0:14:56 Growing up in Detroit and father 0:19:40 Silly questions 0:23:19 Baked goods 0:23:53 Does sketch stand the test of time? 0:29:27 Interviewing Mel Brooks 0:32:30 Topical jokes, humanity, & the past 0:39:45 Dreaming of bats 0:42:13 Tree, cave, or Staten Island 0:46:30 Aura rings and sleep 0:49:43 Throwing pitch for Detroit Tigers 0:54:54 Improv vs sketch 1:06:06 Betting & Sports stories 1:08:07 Importance of history of comedy 1:13:54 Uncomfortable moment 1:14:50 Returning to sketch 1:16:30 In next season of "Only Murders in the Building" & "Play Dirty" movie -------------------------- Tom Papa is a celebrated stand-up comedian with over 20 years in the industry. Watch Tom's new special "Home Free" out NOW on Netflix! Patreon - Patreon.com/BreakingBreadWithTomPapa Radio, Podcasts and more - https://linktr.ee/tompapa/ Website - http://tompapa.com/ Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/tompapa Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tompapa Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/comediantompapa Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/tompapa   #tompapa #breakingbread #comedy #standup #standupcomedy #bread  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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De Pondis'E The conditions is the most popular sketch on Key & Peele is by far the substitute or sketch. Right.

And it's interesting because when we were doing the show, it's such a clever, it's such a clever premise. But when we were doing the show, I think when we sat around the day that the guy who pitched the scene pitched it, everyone went, oh, that's a great idea. That's a really solid idea for sketch. Yeah.

But nobody was blown away by it. Because, you know how like with community, like, what's the most Andy Kaufman thing I can do? Right. What's the most Bob Odenkirk thing I can do? And that sketch just felt like a straightforward sketch. Yeah. you know,

300 million views later, you're going, well, why that one? And it doesn't, that's the best thing about our business. You'll never figure it out. No,

I know. You're never going to figure it out. It's breaking bread. Hey, everybody. I just want to give a shout out. Thank you to all the people that have joined up on Patreon.

Very exciting. You have stormed the gates and now you're inside the studio. And it's been fun. People will even comment. already. We actually have some ideas to change up the set based on what you have suggested. And it's really cool. I'm glad it's a great way to support this podcast. We really thank you. It means a lot so we can keep everything running here at Breaking Bread. Make sure to go to Patreon,

look up Breaking Bread with Tom Papa and join. And you get bonus episodes. You get bonus material. you get extended stuff and also some separate material from out on tour and things like that. It's a work in progress. And also tell us what more you want to see. Do you like getting just extra parts of the podcast or do you want some original stuff? Is there something on your mind? Maybe you want to see the rest of the crew. Who knows what?

But that's the great part about it is that it's a very fun, active addition to the podcast. So thank you, everybody who has joined. joined up. And if you haven't, uh, welcome. You should go check it out. Also, uh, I'd like to thank the good people at tompapa.com. Oh, man, what a great organization that is. They're always eager to sponsor. And, uh, we love having them because that's how you find out about the Grateful Bread Tour. I'm all over the place. I'm going to Thousand Oaks and Portland next week. We've got a big show at the Beacon in New York City on May 3rd, East and Pennsylvania. We're going to clear water Florida. We're going to Atlanta. It goes on and on. Lots of dates. More dates coming out for the fall

really soon. So go to tompapa.com and that gives you a link to everything on the tour. And we also are going to have some big bread announcements soon there too. So thank you to all the people at tompapa.com. Well, this is wonderful. Thank you for being here. If we were in L.A., I would have baked you bread. Oh, yeah? Do you do that? Yes, that is my thing. That's where the name of the pod came from. because I just, I bake bread like crazy. So we can break it, but you also bake it. That's right. Exactly.

I was just looking for a subtitle. Where we break it. Yeah. And I bake it. I'm going to workshop at Tom. I'll figure it. Congratulations on your book. Thank you very much.

It's fantastic. We're really, really, really happy with it. Yeah. And I've written a couple of books as well. And there's always the thing of, are they going to get what it's about in the title? Like, do they, like, all my books are, uh, you're doing great and other reasons to stay alive. Like it's like,

can we just let it live or do people need to be force fed exactly what this book is? Right, right. We went the other route. We just, it's like, you have a graphically you did. Graphically, yeah. So, so basic.

The art of sketch comedy. So it's the history of sketch comedy, a journey through the art and craft of humor. So it's entry, so it does have like a double meaning. It does. It's, I mean, the title says it's specific.

specifically about sketch comedy. Yeah. But it is, but the, the breadth of it, of the history that we talk about, right. Is,

is thousands of years. Right. So, all the way back to, the first, we actually talk about the first recorded joke. Whoa.

Which was, what? I'm just gonna say Assyrians. Isn't that, Sumerians, Sumerians. The Sumerians. The,

the joke is, the joke is, I'm paraphrasing here. Yeah. Through, through time immemorial, there has never been a young woman who didn't fart on her husband's lap. I mean, Tom, I'm sorry, I don't have any context. I have no context for the joke, but apparently it was a knee slapper to the Samarians.

That's the first recorded joke. The first recorded joke is a fart joke. Right. These are the people that created the wheel. And the world. Yeah, and the world. Like, like, like, not, I was going to say aviation. What's, what's, what's in the water? Naval, like, naval, yeah. Boats.

Boats. Like, like, like, like everything. Yeah, get just basic words. Boats, boats, wheels, math. Water. We are Samarians. But, but, so we start there. And it was interesting because I, so my partner, L, who you, you've met, she, so she, this, she had an idea for this a long time ago.

Yeah. And it's almost, it's almost 10 years ago now. But we, this book is based on a podcast, which is based on the idea for this book. Originally, she wanted to write a book. And she's like, this is something that we love. It's actually something that brought us together. Right. It was talking about jokes and comedy.

And she goes, I want to write a book. And then eventually somebody had talked to us about, you know, what might be nice is to do a podcast. And so we, we wrote a 10-part podcast. Right. And what Elle did is ostensibly, she kind of just went, I'm going to figure out how to weave all this together. What I want to do is just open up Kagan's brain, get a bunch of stories about his life

since I have a career in sketch comedy. And weave those stories through the actual history of what we know is sketch comedy. She's brilliant. She did such a great job. And we did the podcast. And then we did, then she said, then we're like, okay, now let's,

what if we write the book? Let's put it on the printed page. And we did the book. And now we've just done the audio book. Wow. It's funny, the, back to the fart thing. Yeah. Mozart, in the time of Mozart, I was reading like, he loved fart jokes.

Mozart loved fart jokes. I believe it. He loved fart jokes. He was kind of, you know, he was this brilliant clownish. Yeah, if the way Tom Hulse portrayed him in Amadeus is accurate, then that's the kind of guy that would love far jokes. Exactly. And there was written stuff about it. And like, it was big humor back then.

Oh, yeah. And let's be honest, if we weren't such comedy snobs, it's guaranteed laugh. Guaranteed laugh. Guaranteed laugh. I, you know, I try my best to not be hacky and try and create my art with integrity. But I don't think I've laughed harder in recent years than when we were. with a family get together, like nieces, nephews, my kids, my parents,

and I had a fart machine. And I was hitting farts and my mother was getting angry. So I'd be like, and she'd like, Tommy, stop it. And it brought out the child in me. Of course. And I just kept,

Tommy, will you please stop it? And then everybody else starts laughing. I was crying, laughing from a fart machine. Now, here's an interesting thing, if I may. How does your mom not know that that makes it funnier. The angrier she gets, the funny, do you understand? The angrier you get, the funnier, the, it's weird that we, it's actually, there's a, there's an excerpt in the book.

Yeah. I think Jordan Peel, Jordan Peel talks about the, that we laugh at the forbidden, you know, we laugh at the things, even though it's, even though it's, it's almost, I mean, we can argue this philosophically, right? or sociologically. I think farting is more natural than violence. Yeah. But you can just chop anybody's arms off,

chop their dicks off, set them on fire and throw them off a cliff. Fine, that's in the movie. Yeah. But you know how it's like sex? And you talk about sex. Yeah. You show, but oh, God, we can't show sex.

And we're still doing that. Yeah. It's 2025. Yeah, it's weird. I remember that being a thing. Yeah. In the 70s and 80s, that was a thing. It's still a thing.

Yeah. But I jumped, I jumped one lane over. We're on the 405. Right. Cynthia, we're on the 405, but we'll be moving to the 495. That's just for your life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I'm with it.

Like, yeah, you want to go. It's funny that you say snobs because it makes me think of the most popular, the most popular sketch on Key & Peel. Yeah. It is by far the substitute teacher sketch. Right. And it's interesting because when we were doing the show, it's such a clever, it's such a clever premise. But when we were doing the show,

I think when we sat around the day that the guy who pitched the scene pitched it, everyone went, oh, that's a great idea. That's a really solid idea for sketch. Yeah. But nobody was blown away by it. Because you know how like with community, like what's the most Andy Kaufman thing I can do?

Right. What's the most Bob Odenkirk thing I can do? And that sketch just felt like a straightforward sketch. Yeah. you know, 300 million views later, you're going, well, why that one? And it doesn't, that's the best thing about our business. You'll never figure it out. No, I know. You're never going to figure it out. I know. I mean, yeah, there's a randomness to all of it. You're the best planning and stuff. But then the randomness, like I remember reading Steve Martin's book and like the wild and crazy guy or the, the bunny ear, like, the like all this kind of stuff was, wasn't like, this is going to. going to kill. It was kind of an afterthought, and I may be messing up his examples, but there

are iconic things that he had in his act that were afterthoughts that just stuck. Yeah. And you cannot figure out why that struck the zeitgeist the way that it did. Well, let's, but with substitute, which is so, I mean, two things, I think,

that I, that make it so funny. The casting of those kids. They're all so, they're so, to your insane temper tantrum and rage, and that they can't say anything, but they're, the way that high school kind of messy hair, bad skin, like, why is this happening to me? They all have a great way of silently conveying it. And then the other thing that I, and I wanted to ask this because it's with a lot of your

sketches and with all great sketches. I kind of think. It's within two lines, you get the premises set. Yeah. Like, we're not kind of finding it. Like, you kind of, you lay out, within two lines, we know, we've set the, where this is going. Yeah, yeah. And now we're going to fill it with jokes.

You know who's good with that is Bob's Burgers. Yeah. Bob's burgers, within a couple minutes. They lay out both storylines that are going to happen in such an elegant way. Yeah. And that's the art. Yeah. The art is how organically you can do the setup.

Right. So can you do it organically? And can you get some laughs while you're doing the setup? Right. That's like you said, the term is, can you do it in an elegant manner? Yeah. Can you do it in an organic and elegant way? That, to me, was probably one of the strong suits of our writing staff as a whole.

To be quite frank, I mean, Jordan was absolutely at the top of his powers as a writer at the time. And somebody had suggested that we work together again. And I was like, me, work with him? Absolutely. That guy is like about to become the greatest sketchwriter in the history of the world. It was, yeah, it was, it was, I appreciate you saying that. We really had a good time. I mean, that was part of, like, L and I would sit around and talk about stuff.

And we talked about the science. of jokes. My wife, she has, she has an encyclopedic knowledge of jokes. Right. And I think the first dinner, we worked together, we started a production company together, started working together before we got married. Oh, okay. And what was her, and what was, she's a New Yorker? She's a New Yorker. She is also, she was in the independent film world for over 20 years. Got it. And, and, and she made, which to me is insane. Like, she produced eight independent films. if you can make one independent film. In your life.

And to have like, in your life, and have it do anything. Yeah. And I think, uh, I had met her. We met at Sundance, but I met her after she had had a couple of stints at Sundance

and had films, films that were sold there. She had a production company. She financed movies. Wow. She produced movies. She was in movies. She did,

she's done every job you can do on a movie. She's done. Wow. And she's also an incredible, if you get a hard copy of our book. Yeah. One of the best things in the book are her. illustrations. She's an

illustrator. That was her major in college. And she's really just quite, like she's a Renaissance woman. We'd like to thank the good people at Quince for sponsoring today's program. If you spend a lot of time cooking at home, it's time to elevate your game. When your cookware actually

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Now available in Canada, too. That's Quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E-D-com slash Papa, P-A-P-A, for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash Papa. So she must have started film Young. Oh, I mean, out of college. I mean, I went to graduate school. I'm one of those people like, and she got into life. She's like, I'm going to do life.

In New York and state in New York. What's that? In New York. In New York and L.A. She was back. back and forth a lot. And she made, she produced really great films.

She's really, really good. She's just a wonderful multitasker. A wonderful multitasker? Right. An effective multitasker. Wonderful is not typically the word we use. She's a touchy feely multitasker,

which is exactly what she is, which is interesting because it's kind of a unicorny thing to be a kind of really a fun person, a warm person, but also be like a very efficient multitasker. Right. Exactly that. You don't get that often. Yeah.

But she, but yeah. So that's her background. She was an illustration major, but she always wanted to be in film. So, and then you're in Detroit. Yep. And you're growing up in Detroit and you're being influenced by watching your family digest comedy and... I mean, for me, I was the... My father was a very stoic guy.

In fact, I think we even have... We might have a chapter in the book that's called The First Time I Saw My Father Laugh, or the first time I heard my father laugh. Right. My dad was really stoic guy. He was like a big, big guy. he was like, you know, six, four, two 40. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and he, he, he thought that

that, I mean, what, I'm in my 50s. So, so he thought Eddie Murphy was the second coming of Flip Wilson, right, you know, yeah, and, and, and, and he was right. And, and it was absolutely, like, times five, yeah, or times 10. Yeah. And, uh, so that was kind of, that was my influence. I just didn't understand what this wonderful thing was I was witnessing in front of me, which was that 84, 84 to 86 world, that cast, Kroger, Piscopo, Louis, Julie, Louis Dreyfus, Eddie Murphy, Brad Hall, those people,

that's my entrance into SNL. Yeah. And into Chris Guest and Marty Short and Billy Crystal, all the, oh, yeah, just insane. Insane, yeah. So when you guys, when you and your wife, when Elle hook up, she's doing all these films, but does she have a comedy?

She has a comedy background. In college, she worked on a sketch show in college, and then she also, she took, she took stand-up classes here in the city. She worked on a TV, a sketch comedy TV show at Syracuse. You know, Syracuse has one of the greatest, like, communications departments in the world. Yeah.

And, um, so she had comedy on her mind. Oh yeah. And she, she grew up, you know, she with the cat skills when she was a kid. Right. The first time we met, what did she tell me? She told me a joke. Oh, she told me this joke. And, and I said, you have jokes?

Tell me a joke. So she tells me this joke. And she goes, there's this little kid. And, uh, he's, uh, he's sitting on a bench and, and, and he's smoking a cigarette. Uh, and this man walks up to him. And he says, hey, kid, you know, um, smoking cigarettes is really bad for your health. Uh, you really shouldn't do that. And the kid looks at the man.

And he says, he goes, you know, my grandfather's 95 years old. He goes, was your grandfather's 95 years old? And he's a smoker? And he goes, no, he minds his own fucking business. And I burst. We were in a restaurant and I just burst in the laughter. Right. And she goes, you've never heard that joke?

And I go, no. So she tells me another joke. And she goes, you've never heard that joke. I'm like, I'm telling you, no. I said, listen, I'm a little Catholic black boy from Detroit. I don't know these jokes. I don't know what a bagel is. I don't know what a smear is.

I'm from Detroit. We eat cony fries and cony dogs. I don't know. I don't need, yeah, it's as close as I get to New York is a cony dog. I was like, I do not know these jokes.

She grew up on these, seeing, when she was a kid, seeing Jackie Mason and Alan King. And, you know, and so she knows that one of her talents is being able to write, not just a funny scenario,

a funny, like, hard joke. Right, right. A set up punchline joke. Yeah, that's, that style. Which is, and she also, you can tell just from the way you're describing her way that she can work, she is free enough and funny enough, but also that militant producer part is cataloging all of it. That's right. That's right. This goes there. Right. And if you would put this here. And then sometimes another part of her brain is thinking about the marketing of it. Right. Like this can work that way. It's very, she's like a good tactician. You know, understands strategy. Because, because, yeah, like you said, that producerial part of her goes, but if we put it together this way,

it would be easier for that to happen, for this to sell, or for the crew to finish their day on time. It's amazing that her brain works that way. Most writers are just, no, and a lot of comedians can't remember street jokes. Oh, they can't remember jokes. I can't remember, like.

What's a street joke? Like what she told. Oh, what she just told me a joke like that. Jokes like the people are just sharing on the street. Yeah, yeah. You know, those kind of jokes. It's like, I can't remember those at all. I have such a hard time.

I can't believe I remember this one. I know. It's crazy. We do a thing here also. This conversation's going great, but we also have other questions. Yeah. That if you feel like you're getting bored,

you can actually request time for one, or I could just throw them out at you. Oh, I can actually request a question. You could just be like, let's change it up. Let's change it up and do a breaking bread question. How ticklish are you? I'm less,

this makes me a little nervous, to be honest with you. I'm less. tick. Let me say that again. I'm less ticklish now than I used to be. And that makes me nervous. Are my nerve endings getting older? Do the nerve endings get numb? Or what's that happened? Am I? I went deeper. I went, are you getting, are you losing your Peter Pan? Are you getting old? Am I getting to, am I getting to crusty and walled in? And you're like, I don't like those tickles. Leaving alone. Don't you dare, Tom. But the physical, but you are very youthful. I am ticklish. I think physiologically speaking, I'm actually quite ticklish.

Where? You know, this is going to sound crazy. Like, in the old 1930s places. Armipet. Like in the three stooges places. Like, I don't have anything interesting. It's not like the back of my ankle. It's like where Mo would tickle curly. You know what I mean? Or the little rascals. My father's, similar to your father, sounds a little shorter, but the same guy.

Two of your dads makes one of my dad's. Like two mountains. Two right stoic mountains. But they can break. And my father is like, you know, big hard fingers. And he would tickle by poking.

Yep, yep. So poking here, poking back here, like in the lower back. In the gizzard. Yeah, in the gizzard. Right in the old desert. Every time, to this day, every time I see him, I'm like flinching.

Don't down, don't, don't. Because he's coming in. Do you put on sock first or pants first? Oh, I put on sock first. Sox first. I mean, it varies. If I'm rushing and not thinking about it, I'll put my pants on first, and then I'll curse the day. And then stuff them up.

Yeah, and then you've got to pull the pant leg up to get the, you're like, and try and go wide around. Yep, go wide around. Why didn't I put the sock on first? I make a concerted effort to put the sock on first. I'm also a, I don't know if you're this guy. When it comes to button down shirts, what I do is I'll unbuttoned two buttons

and I just slide the shirt over the top of my head. That's how lazy I am. I will not unbutton the shirt all the way and take it off like this. The cameras are getting this, right, Mike? You're getting the visual? Yeah. Instead, I will unbutton two buttons

and slide it up. I think it's from being in tons of wardrobe fittings. Right. So I want to be conscious of the wardrobe, of the costume designer's time and my time. So if I just flip it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just hand me that one.

And she was like, oh, let me get the buttons. I'm like, I got, I got it, I got it. Just slide it on over. It's so funny. I literally was just thinking about this because I did a part on a TV show and they had already done my hair and makeup. And then they sent me, I was a guest.

So then they sent me over to wardrobe. and I was taking it off and I was I did the sleeves first so I could then go wide around the thing and go up and the costume designer was like frustrated she's like just take it off what are you doing who takes a shirt off like that I was like but I'm in but I'm in makeup I'm in makeup and you're so like young and just like you don't you don't you like yeah yeah I don't want to get fired everybody can fire me yeah and I'm just like I was like I was like took it off. And I literally, to this day, and like, if I ever go sleeve first and then take it, I feel her yelling at. You can hear it. You get it. So back to the bread. I, um, oh, yeah, yeah. I didn't bake you bread, but this is a great, Vesuvio, Vesuvio is a great bakery on Prince Street. So I brought you cookies. 19 to 30, 1920? Yeah. 1930. Wow. Let me see. Can I see with my eyes?

20 or 30? Um, with my glasses. I can't see it. Really? That's, yeah. So, Subio, we might make new stickers. Yeah, might be Samarian.

It could be Samarian. Well, that says bakery and catering and then something in Samarian. Underneath it. When you talk about you and Jordan

working together, like just as a, as a fun thought, is there a thing? There's like a moment, the great sketch shows, Chappelle, you guys,

you know, S&L at different times, because of its longevity. Is there a cultural moment that you kind of have to hit? You know what I mean? Like, you kind of get your, I always think of it like in terms of like Conan's show.

Conan came out, he got this group of young people that were into it. Yep. And then they ride with you. And you guys had the same thing. You just kind of like, it was a spark and it just exploded. And you had your army.

Could you come back? back and I mean your old fans would show up yeah but even like let's take it away from you guys can uh does sketch have to be of the moment I do I mean this is a good this is a good question uh because your book is the history of it yeah right yeah I mean and some stuff stands the test of time to some dozen right right I'm asking a thousand questions at once right but but but I think the most germane question is is what uh is what uh is And that's the statement you just made. Can it stand the test of time?

Mm-hmm. I, I 100% believe it can. At Key and Peel, we were actually faced with a challenge that I think ultimately helped the show, helped the show's longevity, which is that because our writing process was so long, Mm-hmm. We never had an opportunity to write topical sketches. We never had an opportunity to embrace the moment. There were some moments that were embraced.

Again, I'll use the word organically. Jordan and I are both biracial. At the time, we had just elected a biracial man to be the president of the United States. So that to the, I think to the people at Comedy Central, meant a lot. And we just knew, let's figure out what we can do to make the strongest premises

and the funniest sketches we can. And then, you know, let's slap some social stuff on top of it. If it's not foundation, foundationally funny. Right. So, foundationally funny, so that it's just going to make anybody laugh. And then we have to write evergreen scenes. Right.

We have to write scenes about the human condition. Right. And so the result of that ended up being that somebody, somebody who's 32 or 35, which is a person who'd have watched our show in their 20s, 10 years ago. Uh-huh. And somebody who is 15. right now. Like a gen alpha kid

can both go, I saw that sketch where you guys are doing the texting and you're confused about what it means. That's great. Because that will work until they start putting

chips in our head and we do the texting that way. That sketch will hopefully work. So I think that it can there are Monty Python sketches that are just about class, rich people and poor people. Right.

And some of the Monty Python on sketches have, I was going to say a tinge of absurdism. Fully absurd. Yeah. So they'll last the test of time because of the absurdity of the sketch. Yeah, yeah. Or the esotericness of the sketch. Yeah.

Were you conscious of references? We were, well, what we were conscious of Tom was that we couldn't use them. Right. And then during the second election, the Romney Obama election, we did at one point in a small little flash in our history, we set up a set in our offices where we could do a Luther Obama sketch. You know Luther, the Obama's anger translator.

We could do one of those sketches like a week, one a week, or any time he wanted to if something happened. And what was interesting is those didn't hit as well. As just the very first Luther Obama sketch, which was conceptual. No matter what the topic was, the beauty of the story of the story,

sketch is that you go, Obama's a guy who doesn't get angry. So when does he get angry? Does he go behind closed doors and hit walls? When does this guy get angry? Yeah. Oh, let's get him a surrogate who can be angry for him. And that was enough. It didn't matter what he was talking about. Right, right. And so I feel like there's a flash in time. Like one of my favorite sketch shows ever is that Mitchell and Webb look, which is an English sketch show. And made by the the creators of a show called Peep Show that was on the BBC. And then also Mr. Show

with Bob Odenkirk and David, David Cross. And I feel like those shows, there are sketches on those shows that 100% would still work now. But I think that when the premise is strong and I don't know if they were striving for evergreen sketches,

but when the premise is strong, it can last for, I mean, some of these Monty Python sketches. We're talking almost 50 years old some of these sketches, you know, and some of them over 50 years ago. So that that's my answer. Right. I kind of strong, I mean, we, for the book, we

interviewed a number of people and we had the opportunity, which was amazing. Elle got to she got to interview Mel Brooks. Oh yeah. I interviewed him once. So, how impressive is that guy? God. Did you interview him too? I mean, I was on the phone. I was recording the interview. My job was to transcribe the interview

when Elle was doing most of the talking. Isn't it crazy? Like you literally feel that guy's energy. A hundred percent. Just his human machinery that he churns out is just, I've never experienced it before. Me either. And that was on the phone.

And that it's all focused to comedy is just a dream. It's why he's going to live to be 112. You know what I mean? 150 years old. Yeah. Yeah. But he was telling us about a. sketch that they did that was very topical that, you know, he talked about this sketch where,

where they were building all these new apartment buildings after the war, after World War II in New York City. And they were done very cheaply. And he said that there were walls, the walls were so thin that depending on where a person's television set was in their apartment, you could see the glow through the wall, like a blue glow on the wall. And they wrote this sketch, which was really just an excuse for Sid, Caesar, who was a big guy, to get up and walk through the walls. He just smashed through the walls. That would, that would of course not work today. Yeah. And the first thing that Mel ever wrote was very topical. He wrote, they used to do, I'm calling it the stars, but that's not the name. The Stars of 52. It wasn't called the Stars. I'm forgetting.

They used to do this review thing, Tom, on Broadway, where there'd be young starlets and young who would showcase their talents and people would go to the theater to see them and go, these are the new stars. That's cool. Mel got to write a sketch for this, it was the something something of 52.

And he wrote a sketch that was like about the death of the salesman was the hottest play. And he wrote a opposite death of a salesman where the father was a thief. And the kid went to an Ivy League school and got all A's. And the mother says to the kid, they have an argument and they blow up and the father leaves and the kids,

I got all he goes, what are you doing? You should be out there stealing. And his dad runs away and his mother. He goes, I got all A's. And she looks at him and goes, you're killing him for being so successful. The premise, that premise could work right now on whatever fucking Hamilton or whatever play is on right now. The premise works.

Right, yeah. But that was a very topical subject. At the time. At the time. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the premise is good. Because a lot of times I'll be in the car and listen to Sirius XM, the classic radio, which

it's just fun just to drop in. You don't even know what's going on in these. Oh, just right in the middle of it. There's some comedy. And it's interesting with the comedy. You'll, things, as small as them just referencing someone popular at the, you, the time. Like that's a, that's a, you know, that's like a moss thing or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It takes you out of it. Like just one word about something that I'm not a part of. I don't know. And I have

to think, oh, that must have been a writer at the time. Exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like the whole premise could be current and universal and timeless. But if the, if it's peppered with even the slightest bit of topicality. Yeah, yeah. We did a, we did a sketch, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, I wanted you to finish your thought. Did you ever see the Jack Benny Christmas one in Macy's? It's, you can see it on YouTube. Oh, I got to look it up.

Jack Benny is shopping in Macy's and he wants, he's getting a Christmas present for his wife. And Mel Blank, Bugs Bunny, who did Bugs Bunny and all those great voices. And all those voices, Yosemite Sam and Davy. He is the guy working. behind the counter who is wrapping the gift for Jack Benny. And Jack Benny, every time that Mel Blank is like, it's all done, sir, here it is. I put a bow on it. Oh, one thing.

Would you mind putting a card inside? Sure, sir. And he goes back and has to do it again. And he does it like four times. Yeah, right, right. Where he keeps doing it, unwrapping it and having it. And he's like, wait a minute. And Mel Brooks Bunny is coming out of his.

I mean, that's probably 1948. Yeah. And it, you'll You'll laugh right now. You'll laugh right now. We did, we, we, we did, there's a sketch. It's, I, uh, I adore Nichols and May.

Mm. And so we do this Nichols and May sketch where, where it feels very urbane. It feels very, it feels very early 60s, New York. Yeah. Because of the way Mike speaks. Uh-huh. So, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, it. It could work today.

But it's just interesting, it's like what you were saying about Mel Brooks. It's atmospheric, you know? But there's this thing, so you just, you hear, you just hear this voice, and it's, Mike had this very kind of silky, very New York, very New York kind of upper class voice. He's playing a doctor, and he's,

miss, um, okay, I keep saying, Nurse Redetsky is the, is the nurse's name, but what's her name? I can't remember what, uh, what the, that Elaine plays. But he's saying her name. God, I can't believe I'm blanking on this.

He's saying her name. And he's like, Mrs. Mrs. Lutzk, not Lutski, but I can't remember. But she's coming out of anesthetic. And she's like, yeah, yes, doctor. And he's like, I was wondering, I just wanted to stop by and see how you were feeling. And let me ask you a question.

She goes, oh, yeah, my intravenous slipped out. Let's not worry about that right now. And he goes, was nurse Redetsky in here? And she goes, nurse, who? Who? And he goes, Nurse Redesky, the tall, very terribly attractive nurse. Was she in here? I don't know.

I think, I think. You think she was? Was in here? And she goes, yes. No, she came in. She was here. And he goes, Mrs. Mrs.

Whatever her name is, which is escaping me. He goes, did she ask about me? And you realize in that moment, he went on a date with the nurse and he just wants to know if she said anything to her about the date. And it's just fantastic. It's great. Those moments, it's those moments when you see those ever,

it's those human moments where you go, this could work. Yeah. Because back to the Sumerian of it all and the fart joke of it all. Yeah. What, this is such a dumb thing to admit, but I'm done.

whenever I would think as a young person about people from the Bible or people from ancient past, I pictured them as maybe two degrees from cave men. Exactly. Everybody. Like I just picture, well, that's so long ago. Those people, I mean, come on. What were they about? What could they have known?

The reality is exactly the same, emotionally intelligent, and exactly the same. exactly the same except for all the modern conveniences and stuff that we have. They were exactly the same. You can't say that if you showed a cell phone, if you showed a YouTube video to William Shakespeare, he would respond to it the way a chimpanzee responds to a mirror. Right.

That doesn't make him stoo. He would have no reference for what this is. Like he would know, you know, to him, that would be sorcery. That would be like something he wrote in The Tempest. Right. But the things that he... But he did know.

But even just looking at that, once he got a grip on it, he would react. I mean... He'd be fine. Yeah, because he's... I mean, he's like kind of the bridge for my mental lapse was like, oh, this guy was more in tune than anyone today. That's right. About our emotions and envy and jealousy and rage and love and all of these things. The human being has not changed.

We've not changed at all. And it's funny that we think somehow... This is what's funny. Somehow we also think, in my opinion, that they were somehow less curious than we are. If anything, they were more curious. Right. We know everything.

Yeah. They don't know. Galileo? Like, the Galileo is not. Freaking people out. It's like, like people were thinking about shit. They weren't, you know what I mean? They were not, they were, yeah, it's funny.

I think most people, we do the same thing. We go, it's the 1920s. they just didn't understand. Yeah. You know, vaccines and atoms. Yeah. I think they knew a little,

probably more about Adams than I think they knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 19, 26. It's really, yeah.

Yeah. And in the arts, it's really like technique. It's like, you know, like when you watch old movies, like my kids would have such a, they would rebel against,

I would be like, you've got to watch the apartment with Jack Lemon and Shirley McCain and they see black and white and just like, I can't. They can't go there. Yeah. But. it's everything that they're living now.

It's like, it's, it's so, it's, I mean, the apartment is as scandalous as succession. Right. I mean, yeah. I mean, if not more so, it's a little sadder. Yeah. Oh my God. It's more, it's, it's, it's way, not morbid, but it's just sad. It's sadder than some of the most hard hitting stuff we have now.

It's such a beautiful movie. Oh, God. The neighbor comes over the doctor, goes to the hell. help. I mean, oh my God. All right, this is time for a good question. Oh, this is good. Do you have a recurring dream now or as a kid? Do you or did you ever have a recurring dream? I'm not very good at remembering my dreams, but you know what is in my dreams a lot? Bats. Really? I'm not afraid of them necessarily, but bats. I remember bats being in my dreams as a kid. And every now and again when I'm kind of in REM sleep and you're remembering the dream.

Bats come up. They come up, but not as a threat. Not as a threat. Interesting. Not as a threat, which is interesting. I performed last weekend in Wisconsin, in Madison at a theater, I think it was called Orphium. And they have bats in the ceiling. And every once in a while, you'll hear a comic or a performer say a bat.

I just saw a bat. Fell out or yeah, came out. And my opening act, Stephen Rogers, it's his greatest fear. Really? And we were all like hush, hush around him. Like, we were talking to like the stage hands and stuff. And we're like, does there have been any bats recently?

Like, no, it's been a couple months. We haven't had any, any bats. We're like, okay, don't tell Stephen. Don't tell Stephen. But we might be due. I mean, it's been a couple months. Oh, shit. Don't say that.

Don't put that out there. We might be due. I think it's their, what's the more disturbing part of a bat? Is it their little hands that are attached to the wing? Or is it their little mushy faces? I think their faces are cute. It's the hand. It's the, what is that?

That little claw thing. So it's a single digit. Yeah. Coming up off the little leathery wing. It's not, it's, it's, it's unbecoming. Yeah. They are, they are curious. I just, last year I shot a movie in Australia.

Wow. Oh, yeah? Wow. They call them. They call them flying foxes. Tom, they're like this big. No. Like this big.

That's one bat? That's one bat. Yeah. And you look up there and you're like, oh, that's, oh, look it. Because your brain, your brain doesn't go bat first. It always goes monkey. Because no one's looking up bat videos online. You're looking up monkey videos.

Everybody's looking up monkey videos. No one's looking up a bat video. And you go, what is that? Oh, that's a straight bat. Oh, my God. And then when they're flying across the air and they're, wing span, this table, the wingspan's like this table. Stephen would have a stroke.

Stephen would have a stroke, yes. Poor Stephen Rogers. Where would you rather live in a tree, a cave, or Staten Island? A tree, a cave, or Staten Island. I think, you know, I really, I got a cat, I love a view. so I probably a tree because most trees are going to be taller than the majority of structures in Staten Island so I probably would prefer you could have a nice tree house like you don't have to have a tree house definitely a tree yeah I don't think yeah I don't think you have to just be sitting on a branch in the rain okay okay yeah because you could build something because I was literally thinking I have to find a nice crook in the tree you know I got to find just a nice little crook spot so the bark so I can lean but I'm not getting too much too much. barkage. Caves.

I feel like I would, I wouldn't breathe well in a cave. I feel like I just know that I need the vitamin D. We all need the vitamin D, Tom. It's really true. I mean, the cave does not provide vitamin D. And so,

but even though I like it to be super dark when I'm sleeping. Yeah. But I want to be super dark all the time. You know, how, like, if you have, if you're in a hotel and you, uh,

it's bedtime and you like, I'll just leave that. I won't do the black shades for that. window. I'll just, I'll just, I, do you have to get up and then close it because it's too much. What I do is I put electrical tape on all of the, like, you know the little red light on the TV? Yeah. On the electronics. You do? So you have electrical tape in your, in your carry on my, my dop kit. Really?

There's electrical tape in our dop kit, yeah. And we just literally ordered some electrical tape off of the, off of the, uh, Amazon. Brilliant. Yeah. And so we put, and then I get up on a chair and I put the, on the, on the thing or on the, on the, What is it? The fire, fire alarm. Yeah. And then we always, and sometimes Ellen and I have quit. I'm telling you, this is true. This is great.

I will bring like duvetine, like black, like black drapage. Yeah. And if there's no, like. If you can't, it's too big to take. If they don't have blackout curtains, I've got to contend with it. Oh, really? Because if the sunlight comes through, I'm up. So you'll wedge it onto the window somehow.

Or like prop a, decorative pillow against it. Oh yeah, we do not play. Wow. So I think the answer to this question is you already live in a cave. Yes, exactly. So that's why I prefer to live in a tree, but then I have to have an eye mask when I sleep. And an eye mask? Sometimes I do an eye mask if I know there's too many cracks in the room. Right, right. And then other times I go, be disciplined, let those, leave those cracks there because when you go to sleep, hopefully the sun will come through and you'll get up. So I can establish a proper circadian rhythm. I know, that's an important thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, the eye mask, it always ends up around my neck or, Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, or you end up up here. And you just look, and then you get up and go to the bathroom, and then you forget it's there. The tape is brilliant. Like, I'll take the towel, extra towels and put them over.

It's an electrical tape. And it's easy to take off when you leave. Right. Just use it to flip, you know. It's so brilliant. Oh, my God. If it was brilliant, so that means it's L's idea. That means that the elf, that means a she came up with that.

You know, all right, let me ask you this, because my other pet peeve in hotels, usually the, you know, budget hotels, is a bathroom fan. They can't turn it off. Or it's the vent. It's not the fan, it's the vent. The air con for the whole system.

And you can't, yep, and you can't stop it. I was just in a hotel recently. Yeah. I just was in a hotel where I, I turned off the AC. Yeah. And then I don't, I must have hit the, I must have hit auto instead of off. Uh-huh.

Three o'clock of the morning. Tram! And then it goes off and you're like, oh, it must be done. And that it must have, I did something wrong. Yeah. Excuse me. I'm not sure what I did. Uh-huh.

But that, I know exactly, with that vent in the ceiling in the bathroom. It can't. The worst. It's a killer. It's a killer. I think it really wears on your, on your nervous system. It does. Because you're not getting.

any deep sleep. No. You're not getting any deep. I've got my aura ring on, so I'm thinking about deep sleep, light sleep. What is the aura ring? So you buy these rings and that, and they put, I guess there must be a palsy thing here, right? You wear it on your first, your first finger. Okay. And then I have an app. And I open up the app and it tells me how long I slept, how long I slept in deep sleep, light sleep, no way. How often times did you wake up in the night actually wake up so you were conscious and then went back down into a sleep state. It also tells you about heart rate, blood flow, oxygen flow. Whoa.

How many steps you took? It's really great. Is it pretty accurate? It's pretty accurate. I mean, as far as I know. How do you sleep? I am not sleeping well. You don't sleep well.

76 to an 81, which is fair to good. Okay. And I think one day I slept and I got an 86, too many screens. Isn't that everybody? It's literally, I'm not saying anything. Before you go to bed? Too many screens before I go to bed. I got to cut down on the screens.

Yeah. I got it. I don't ramp. I'll be like, this is bad. I'm a sports center. I'm watching Sports Center. Yeah.

And then I'm like, great. Yeah. The Pistons won. Yeah. Put the phone down and go like that. You're not. It's not good. That's not good.

It's not good. Well, we're going to have to keep in touch because when you stop with the screens, I want to know if people our age can ever get good sleep again. I'm not sure. I'm a hundred percent. Tom,

I'm so. with you. I can't tell you how with you. Maybe it's just what happens. Yeah. When you're older. Yeah. I kind of feel like, do you remember, and I know this is, I know this is exactly how you woke up, because I know your energy and your joy for life. But when you were a kid, you would bounce out of bed, let's go. And you would like, you run into, who's up? Who's up? What are we eating? What are we doing today? And now I was the same way. And now I get up and it's like a bear coming out of a coma. Yeah. What do I have to do today? What's happening to do that? And then also the, also, my favorite thing, can I just tell you my favorite thing? Yes.

Is when I do wake up in the middle of the night and I'm kind of conscious and I lean over, it's like in slow motion. I'm like, oh, clock, please say two something. Say one something so that I can sleep for six more hours. And it's my favorite thing. Yeah, because you're like, oh, I feel like I've been sleeping a long time. But it's one. 47. I went to sleep at midnight.

Yeah, yeah. And you're like, yes. It's only been 90 minutes. And that's my new favorite thing. Yeah. Remember when you were a teenager? Everything's, because you're only half baked. Yeah. Everything's still growing. Yeah.

The sleep. So sublime. Sublime. Could be on a floor. Could be on a milk crate. In a milk crate, yeah. Better nails. Yeah.

Lights everywhere. Fans everywhere. You're gone. Like seven. straight hours of deep sleep, straight from, like, consciousness to deep sleep. Yeah. Oh, my God. I want to report. I want to report. I will report. I will call you, Tom. I will call and go, hey, I got a 92 yesterday on my sleep. It can be done. It can be done. I mean, if I could, oh. Take me to Detroit. Was this recent? I saw on Instagram not too long ago. It was last week. It was last week.

It was last week. Was that the first time you threw out the first pitch? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Tell me about it. Because you grew up as a Tigers fan. I grew up a Tigers fan. This is big. So I was, so I was, what, was I 13? I was 13 when they won the World Series, 84. Beautiful.

And I'd been a Tigers fan ever since. And I used to work at the second city, comedy theater, across the street from what is now, what is now known as, what is Comerica Park. Right. We watched them while we were rehearsing a show.

We watched them build the ballpark. So they had torn down our old. They were turned on our old ballpark, and they were going to build a new one. So they were building the new one, and it was directly across the street from where I worked. And where were you working? I worked it up. So you know, the second city in Chicago. There was a second city in Detroit.

And there was a building there that was built, and it had a restaurant in it, and the theater in it. And so we'd come out from rehearsal for, you know, a coffee break or a cigarette break or a water break and just look across the street at the construction. And we, I think we even were allowed all of the employees of the company that built the stadium. we went over and we signed like a girder. So there's a girder over there with my signature on. Amazing. And so it was a big deal for me.

It's a big deal. And my partner, my L, knowing it was a big deal. Yeah. Was like, do you want to practice? Yeah. It's like, yeah, let's practice. And so we literally, like, I got a pitching coach. You did?

For a day. It was very nice. This guy helped us out for a day. And then the even better thing is we got to go to Detroit the day before the game. and I got to get on the mound. Oh, wow. So here's the real distance. Here's the mound.

Here's the elevation. Figure out my release point. I was not, I was leaving nothing to chance, Tom. I have to say, there's two things about it that I really clocked. I did it once for the Cubs. Oh, yes.

But that's not my team. That's your team. But they're the, yeah, but a great historical team. I'm a New York Yankee guy. So the pressure wasn't that on, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But it was still, I went with my buddy and threw in the park the day before and that kind of thing.

But when it's your team, the pressure is really on. So much greater. Yeah. That you, I was, I wasn't as well known as you are at the time of like doing like so like everybody knows it's you. Oh yeah. It's going to be on the local news. It's like that's upset. And I always say that it's, if you do it well, it doesn't mean.

like nobody talks about it, but if you mess it up, everyone talks about it forever. But yours was so joyful, I think I've revised my, I think you can have, you can nail it with a good pitch and it will actually resonate.

I really hope so. It seems so joyful. They seemed happy for you. You seemed so happy. Everybody seemed happy. Yeah, everybody was happy. I loved that the catcher, you know, when the ball went in,

it was mitt and he put his head down, like, you did it, buddy. That's why I just, I hugged him so tight because I was just like, because usually when you throw out the first pitch, it's helpful. The catchers are great because they'll frame it for you. Right. If you can,

I mean, that's for those of us that get it across the plate. Yeah. There is not a world, Tom, where I would not have practiced. There are people who just don't practice. I'm just going to show up. What do you think?

You get your first throw. Like, since seventh grade. Exactly. And also, if, if for, By chance, I've seen, if I have seen, I have seen, this isn't a fiction, this isn't a,

I have seen, you see a professional athlete, a world-class athlete from a different sport. Yeah. Not do this well? Yes. You better practice. Good point. You better practice. Like a world-class athlete.

Yeah. Then you better practice. And I was practicing in their practice area right before I went out to throw the pitch. Oh, nice. And it was good because I was practicing and warming up and kind of targeting and targeting. and the very last pitch I threw before we went upstairs was a strike and I'm like, okay, just groove that in

just do the same thing. It's literally like Rory yesterday. I'm saying this now, even though people are going to watch this after now, but Rory McElroy won the Masters said on that same, on a hole he said, just do the same thing, just Rory, do the same stroke as you did earlier. Same stroke as you did earlier.

And I just went in there. But seeing the catcher somehow made made it easier. He, he, calm me down. I remember Elle saying

to me, whatever you do, just take a breath before you throw the ball. Yeah. Just, you know when pitchers do that, they do the thing?

Yeah. And so I just did that and it was, it was glorious. It was a really good one. It was glorious. It was so fun. Yeah.

And the warmth from the crowd and everybody was, I was happy to be there. They were happy. So good. It was great. All right. Let me ask you this question.

They brought up a comedy thing with your sketch related. You were dialed in. You were pretty precise. You were practiced. You did all the, all the things. And your sketches in Key and Peel always seem very well written, very tight.

What's your view on improv? As opposed to sketch. So not as a respect thing, but just as a like, You work, you, you as an artist. I, you know, I got, I got infected, beautifully infected, I should say, by improv, because I ended up spending a good seven years of my life, which is, you know, well over 10,000 hours, right? Just doing improvisation. Right. And, and teaching it and immersing myself in it.

I love improvisation as a tool. it is a skill that can be developed and a skill that can be used in the writing process. And sometimes I think I have a facility for it. And sometimes I'm just, and I think a lot of people are doing this. Sometimes a director I work, a writer director I work with a couple times in my career, he used to call them grip laughs, meaning that you did the line in four takes, And then in the fifth take, you change the line and everybody in the crew laughed.

They're not laughing because it's funnier. They're laughing because it's different. So don't necessarily think that's going to get in the movie. Interesting, yeah. And don't think necessarily that, I mean, I don't necessarily agree with him. Sometimes it's helpful for morale for the crew. Yeah, the life of...

I'm a classically trained actor. So I'm a Shakespearean trained actor. Like Shakespeare, Ibsen, Moliere, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, tight. Restoration theater. Learn the line. The words are,

I don't mean this to sound pejorative, but the words are weapons. In every scene, you're trying to win something. You're trying to gain something. You're trying to complete something. And you need these tools to complete that thing. Right. So there's more of a sense,

you'd think there'd be more of a sense of security. But in the greatest acting moments, the greatest, greatest moments of truth are usually those moments you were talking about. We were talking about earlier, right? That kind of flop out or pop, you know. Here's a moment. In the poker scene in Goodfellas,

Tommy, the Joe Pesci characters talk, he's trying to remember the name of a movie. And someone's going, oh, you know, who was Gary Cooper? And they're all talking about trying to remember the name of the movie. He's swinging this pistol around. Yeah. And he goes, and somebody, somebody says, is it High noon? I think somebody's, high noon.

He goes, high noon. I think that's it. That's Gary Cooper, right, right, right. And then De Niro just kind of pops up the side. He goes, Shane. And then Joe Pesci goes, I can't. Shane. He stops the scene to go, I heard what you said.

I heard what you said. And it's in the movie. Right. And it's a beautiful little moment, natural moment. And I think those should be imbued. Any kind of artistic endeavor, whether it be a play or a film, should be littered with those moments. Right. And when I did a show on Broadway, I did Steve Martin play on Broadway with Amy Schumer and Laura Benanti and Jeremy Seamus.

So much. Wow. I could have done it for five years. Yeah. Oh, my God. So much fun. And there were nights where Benanti and I, right backstage, right before the show, I go,

do you want to do the, you want to do a plan B tonight? She goes, yeah, let's do a plan B. Meaning, we're going to say all the lines, but there's going to be actions that we're going to do just to keep it buoyant and fresh. Yeah, yeah. To keep Amy and Jeremy on their toes, and Amy would do the same thing.

Sometimes Amy just walk on the stage, and like, this bitch doesn't have no shoes on. Why are you not wearing shoes? This is, you know, she's just a woman in her home. Why would I need to have my shoes on? Right. And you're like, oh, okay, so we're dealing with that tonight. Yeah, it gives you life.

It gives it life. Yeah. So it's, I'm also a person who believes, even if it is improvised, and there are friends of mine and people I respect deeply who feel differently. But it's actually, there's some of it in the book. We interviewed Christopher Guest. And Christopher, firm, adamant believer, the improvisation, acting out a scenario is not sketch.

That's, that's his feeling. Right. His argument is a sketch is written. It is a written piece. As Mel Brooks said, it's a tiny play that you've written or a sketch of a play, right? And I think that even if, no matter the source, the creative source that the story comes from, if it's small and short and contained, it's a sketch, whether it was written or improvised. So I think it's a hardy, robust argument that we can have. It's like the end result is a sketch.

The end result is still a sketch. But Christopher Gess was saying that it's not a sketch. It's a different project. It's a different, it's a different, it's a different, it's a different art form. Right, right, right. And in our, like, in improvisation, the Mount Rushmore, he's kind of viola Spolen, put together, created a book called the Improvisation for the Theater, and Del Close. Yeah.

And Keith John Stone from England for me. And then, like, and then Burr. Sohn's who owned the Second City for a very long time. And Bernie used to say, Dell always said, Improvisation is an art form unto itself. And Bernie always said, improvisation is a tool we use. It's a playwriting or screenwriting tool we use

to generate material. And they, and they were at loggerheads creatively their entire career together. It was really great. Yeah, that is great. Yeah. Are films, our comedic films, a series of sketches?

some are so funny you're mentioning all the things that are in the book so airplane there are lots of scenes in airplane right and an airplane too that can live on their own

in a vacuum right so when that I mean the stewardess I just said stewardess because I'm in my 50s yeah when the flight well in the script it was probably

it's probably stewardess when she comes up you know and the guy's like the black man is like oh man cut me to the bone you read And then his friend's like, yo, Jack, you got to help my bank because on a man's side. And Barbara Billingsley says, excuse me, miss, I speak jive.

And she comes over, you know, the guy's like, he's like, she's like, she's like, you know, you know, what she's saying? You know, what she's saying is that she's going to go to the place and get you some medicine goes, man, I dug her rap. That's all right, Jack. I know what she's, what you say? On the downside. He said, mom, my mama didn't, my mama didn't raise no dumb it. I dug her rap. So if you were to do that.

Yeah. Is that me? If you were to do that in a vacuum, that sketch, I think, would still work. Without us knowing about the fact that the movie, the string that holds the movie together is, this is a parody of Airport 77. Right. This is a comedic parody of Airport 77. There's a thing.

The plane is in crisis. They're in trouble. They're in trouble. I try to land it. Yeah. But all that stuff that happens inside. They're all just sketches. Yeah. Another example we have in the book is there's a little more.

moment, just a tiny moment in the movie Midnight Run with Robert De Niro and Charles Groden, where John Ashton walks up to a ticket booth to buy a plane ticket, and he's smoking a cigarette, and he's going, and the guy, he goes, are you going to pay with cash, sir? He goes, yeah. He goes, and would you like a smoking seat or a non-smoking seat? And he goes, take a wild guess. You know what I mean? It's just a nice, hard joke. And that's, it's a, in improv, we'd call that a blackout or, you know, just a small little, just a smack, just a pop, yeah. So I think that lots of comedic films, the, the trick that elegance you're talking about at the beginning of our discussion is how do I keep the full story together intact? Yeah. And then in the midst of that,

how do I set up funny moments? How do I set up sketches? It's like beginnings and ends. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Within. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's, That's the tough part. That is the tough part. But man, they really do make for very funny movies, right? Like Dumb and Dumbers or like the Ace Ventura's, like all those that are just going to be trying to be as balls out funny as you possibly can. As funny as you possibly can. Right.

In that, in that short time. We did, we did like another one. Like you think about, you think out in like Monty Python. You're in the Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Yeah. Even though, and now for something. completely different in Flying Circus are actual anthology sketch movies. Right.

I think of, I think of Holy Grail as also a sketch movie because there's lots of scenes. If you just took the, bring out you dead. You know, and Eric Gras like, bring out you dead. I'm not what he's, I'm not dead. He's like, what did you say? Yes, he is. I love that he just lies to his face.

Yeah. I'm not dead. Yes, he's. He said he's not tight. And so we do that in the book. That's one of the funniest things that Elle was like, Elle's like, I'll go, I'm sorry, it's a little tangent, but it was funny to me because Elle goes, she goes, I'm like, okay, so we're going to put all these sketches in the book and I don't know how to do the licensing.

And she goes, oh, no, no, we're doing any licensing. I'm like, oh, oh, pray tell. And she goes, oh, no, no, you're doing all the voices. Right. You're doing all of the voices in all of the sketches. You're going to play Tim Conner. You're going to play Dudley Moore. You're going to be Michael Payland.

And I was like, oh, okay. So this is going to be fun. That's great. So I do all of the voices in the book. Yeah. Did that make it longer than doing a regular audio book? It's a little longer. The podcast is almost the book.

The book is the podcast with these interviews. Got it. So we interviewed Chris Rock and Christopher Gast and David Spade and Carol Bernett. I'm just doing my regular voice. I'm doing it. I can't do them. I mean, I can't do a M.L.

Anybody can do M.L.? But it was a lot of fun to perform. It's actually fun to perform it. Yeah. Because I'm saying I got excited there. Because I'm not just reading it. Right, right. I'm actually, you know, you go into character and you do these pieces.

And yeah, it was really fun. It's amazing. Do you bet? You're like big sports band. I'm not a better. Yeah. I am, I'm, which is, we were talking about the Masters Golf Tournament. Yeah. That's, that's my like crack cocaine.

Uh-huh. It's the stories. Right. But when I hear about the NFL development program in Africa or Polynesia and then some kid who grew up on a dirt floor, now makes $10 million a year in the end. That is my, oh, I love it. I'm not a better. Are you a better?

No, I'm not. I'm not a better. It's really infected everybody, though. Everybody. It's amazing. Like, I've got a group of really close high school friends, and we're all Yankee fans. And, you know, we use, these are the guys that we were talking about the Masters yesterday. And it does infect some of, like, the bigger things because not Yankee games, but like, if they're watching the NCAA tournament or something, they're all talking about the odds and what they've got going on NFL games.

And I'm like, I'm so, I don't like it. I don't like the show. I don't like when, like, some of the streamers are doing sports, and they'll put the percentage of, like, what's the percentage that this guy will get a hit now? Yeah, the plus this and then minus that. It's garbage. It's all gobbledy good to me. Yeah, me too.

I like the drama of it. I can find the drama and stakes in a game of two teams. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. I can do that. Yeah. I don't need the bet to. I love the drama.

Yeah. It's the, it's, um, The only thing that's, because I love theater, obviously. Yeah. The only thing that separates it from theater is the process of interpretation. They have to interpret it this way because that's the rules of the sports. Whereas a performer can interpret these written words in a different way. It's the only difference is that you absolutely actually don't know the outcome.

Yeah. Let me ask you this question. I was going to ask you a goofy question, but you got my brain on something else. When you wrote this great book on the history of this art form and as a stand-up, like I just digest and know everything from the, it seems like with the way that there's new ways of being funny on TikTok and YouTube. And I have a feeling, and I know it just from talking to some young stand-ups, they don't really know the history.

They don't know a lot of the names. of the great people that came before us. How important do you think it is for performers to know the history of theater, of sketch, of stand-up? I think it's like, I think it's super important. I'm a classicist. I love history, and I love to study history and trends from different eras and epochs and times.

It's part of, you know, the love of this book. Yeah. My partner is a very giving person. She's like, she goes, I'm doing this because it's something that I like and is interesting to me, but I also know Keegan's going to love this. I think it's important, and this is going to sound a little mercenary, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think it's important, what's the old adage?

Good, good performers borrow great performers steal. Right. Is that you should, you don't even know who you could be stealing from. Are you kidding me? Charlie Chaplin existed. Right. Harold Lloyd existed. You're not stealing for,

which is what the greats. I mean, Michael Angelo was great because he apprenticed under a very good artist. It's a mill. It's like a mill. Yeah, we're all feeding. It's like an organism. Yeah, the fact that a young African-American,

if a young African-American comic looks up to Dave Chappelle, boy, you should watch a Dave Chappelle interview and figure out who Dave Chappelle's heroes are. There's no way Dave Chappelle doesn't know who Dick Gregory and Flip Wilson are or Godfrey Cambridge. Yeah. You know, it's like... I remember I was seeing an interview with Flea from the chili peppers. And, you know, Flea is such his own space entity.

Yeah, yeah. And he talks about the lineage of Miles Davis and Charlie Parker and all of these great people that came before him. And it's like, so you would never think... That flea. Flee has a working knowledge of jazz. A jazz musicians, yeah. But we're all part of this being. Everything that you learn will somehow influence you.

Somehow it will influence you. And make you better. It will make you better. Because there's one artist who prize themselves in their preciseness. There's another artist that prized themselves in their chaos. You can borrow from both of those. Because for, I mean, stand-up comedians in some form or another have been around for hundreds of years.

It's again, I'm here to plug this book. It's in the book. We talk about, we have a chapter about jesters. Yeah. And how jesters made their humor and what kind of humor. We have a couple of examples. Like, The Fool and King Lear was a jester. Right. And

in a manner of speaking, Jimmy Fallon, but even to a more extreme degree, someone like Colbert, is a jester for our times. Right. We're punching up at the king. Right, yeah, yeah. And so I think it's, I think it's essential to know about where you came.

I know. You're not, by the way, it's not, like I said, I'm a classicist. So sometimes I say things that aren't terribly romantic. There's only seven stories. Right. There's seven stories. Yeah. It's part of why El, my former brother, it's part of why Jordan and I stopped.

I can't speak for Jordan exactly But for me I went If we do eight seasons of this show It's just going to be the same scenes Over and over again in new locales Eventually everyone's going to burn out and go I mean I guess we kind of did this again Yeah so what this is a husband who's scared of his wife

In the desert And this is a husband who's scared of his wife In medieval times before the jousting Exhibition Yeah There's only seven stories. So you kind of have to change, you kind of have to change who you're doing them with.

Absolutely. Because who are you, that's history. Like that, you should know that. Like, I like to read old books. Sometimes I read old books,

Tom, from the 15th or 15th century. There was a book called the DeCamaran which had a bunch of old, little old stories and scenarios in it. That's the 14th, like the 14th 60s. Wow.

The 1460s, right? Shakespeare read the decamarin. It's where Romeo and Juliet comes from. He didn't make it up. Right. So, I mean, if you can get a little help, no, that's me. Other people in my life, both of my partners,

I learned from that. Jordan, I think of Jordan and L, both as trailblazers. People who kind of, they come to the world at a different angle and go, this is how I see it, and I'm going to approach it this way, and I'm going to execute my art this way.

And I kind of sit back and the best thing I can do for them is allow them to express themselves, as opposed to say, oh, so that's just like what happened on Fibber McGee and Molly in 1938 on that. They don't want to know that. Right, right, right. Let them cook. Right, yeah, yeah.

Let them cook, you know. Well, this is interesting because we have a thing on this program called an uncomfortable moment. And it's, you know, you talk about working with other people and this is kind of a good time to bring this out because we have our Cracker Jack staff kind of drafts things up and if you're looking for a new idea

I was thinking maybe Oh, Key and Papa? You know what I would? I'd flip it. Papa and Key sounds better. Having your name first sounds better. Oh. Papa and Key. I already like our collaboration.

I like, I like, I like, here's what else I like with this picture. I love you. you looking at me. Like, what's going on with this guy? Or is he okay? What kind of sadness is he hiding behind that small? What's wrong with my arms? I don't know where they can. I feel like somebody photoshopped that right arm in there. That's like, that can't be you. Is that actually your right arm? I don't know. That would be great. So you have all this great love of sketch and you're a great actor and you're in a ton of different other projects. Would you go back to a

sketch show or like with somebody else or do you feel like you've done that let's let's go towards other horizons i'll say this i would do it again i feel like i'd do it again if it was with with jordan right otherwise i really would rather explore other horizons if anybody in the world in the sketch space yeah could find a new way to enlighten or elucidate or dissect those seven stories yeah I think it would be Jordan Peel. That's my, hey, listen, I'm sure somebody else is the, I throw down the gauntlet to everyone. Yeah.

Let me just say this is a side note. You know, there's a bunch of numbers that are divisible and multiple. So it's seven basic stories, but then that leads to 21 sub stories, which leads to 49 sub stories. Do you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It falls under this category. But da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

And duh, fall under this category. So there's variations, but ultimately it's just the seven. He's the guy. Yeah. We, we, we, I know for him, he also felt like he worked really hard and he achieved what he wanted to achieve. And I, at that point in time, it just had been, I had been for 12 straight years. I went from the second city to Mad TV to Key and Peel. I'm like, okay, so now.

Yeah. It's been well over a decade. I've been doing almost nothing sketch. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was. just kind of time to be done. Anything we want the people to know besides the book? You know, I'm very excited. I'm working.

I can say that. I can say it's printed, right, Kara? Only murders? I can't say, talk about it. Yeah. So I'm going to be in the next season of Only Murders in the building, which is really fun. That's pretty great. So much fun. You shot it already? Shooting it presently. Wow. And so much fun. Nice to jump on a show too. That's like, there's two different types of excitement.

One's when a show's just starting, and you're finding your way, and you're discovering things. And one is when it's a well-oiled machine. They're both wonderful in their own way. And this is a well-oiled machine. Yeah, it's got to be great. And then you go to work and you find out who the other guest stars are. Yeah.

Who's on it? You know, you can't. That's amazing. You know? And they're having the time of their lives. That's great. And Marty and Steve are great. Yeah.

Selina's just an angel. Did you know them already? I know Marty and Stephen, who's Steve from doing his show, Marty and I are both, everybody in the second city, it's like a mafia. Like the Marine Corps.

You know what I mean? The few, the proud, the funny. So we all know each other. Right. But I did Shmigadoon with Marty. Right. And so he's like a mentorie,

inspiration, big brother, uncle, funny shaman. Yeah, yeah. You know, he's the best. So that'll be out next year? I think next year. I think it'll start

premiering next year. Oh, that's so great. There's no better feeling than knowing that even if you stopped working for the rest of the year now, that you have something coming out. Yes.

Like you're still doing it. There's something to look for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, I had mentioned to you earlier about that I was in Australia. So I shot a movie in Australia with Mark Wahlberg.

Called Fat Back? called what's called what? Fat bats. Fat bats. I should, I want to make a movie. Now I want to make a movie called Fat Bats. It's called Play Dirty. Cool.

And it was written and directed by Shane Black, who did Lethal Weapon. Oh, whoa. And Kiss Kiss Kiss, Bang, Bang. Oh, wow. He's terrific. Amazing. And I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

Oh, that's great. And Mark's great in it. It's going to be great. That's so cool. Yeah, so that's coming out soon. Oh, great. And, um, so you'll come back. I'll come back, absolutely. But other than that, I mean, the book, I'm just, I'm really excited

about the book. And also, if for anybody who's heard the podcast, get the audio book, because the audio book has extra material. It has all these wonderful, insightful interviews that we did with all of these people. Like I mentioned, you know, Julie Louis Dreyfus and Carol Burnett and Mel Brooks and Tracy Morgan and Chris, Chris, Kevin Neelyan and Chris Rock. Yeah. So much fun. So much fun. Yeah. Well, great work. and it was great picking your brain about it all. And I hope you like the cookies. Oh, I cannot wait.

I'm going to go home and make a little cup of tea and then have a Vesuvio, whether it was established in 1920 or 1930. Yeah, it was a long time. Yeah. You're the best. Thanks, Tom. You got it, Mikey.

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