Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 261 - Ed Helms

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

This week comedian, banjo player, and history buff Ed Helms joins us at the table! Ed and Tom discuss some of history's biggest snafu's and the fact that somehow, we always make it through. Ed also shares about some of the biggest moments in his career: The Daily Show, The Hangover, and let's face it, probably his appearance on this podcast. If you were waiting for Tom to bring up Wacky Packs in casual conversation, it's your lucky day. Enjoy! Check out Ed's new book, SNAFU: The Definitive Guide to History’s Greatest Screwups, out now! Check out Factor: Factormeals.com/PAPA50off and use code PAPA50off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. ----------------- 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:54 Factor Ad 0:01:36 TomPapa.com 0:02:25 Patreon 0:03:38 Ed's Podcast and book, SNAFU 0:06:10 Research and fascination with history 0:08:53 You can't throw away National Geographic's 0:10:53 Wacky Packs 0:14:20 We always make it through 0:21:18 Baking bread and banjos 0:29:12 NY stand up early days and The Daily Show 0:32:26 Writing a book is dense 0:34:32 Continuity police 0:35:22 Factor Ad 0:37:16 The Hangover journey 0:46:15 Silly questions 0:49:26 Government run mistakes 0:56:45 Uncomfortable moment 0:58:55 Back to silly questions 1:02:20 Returning to a quiet life ----------------- Tom Papa is a celebrated stand-up comedian with over 20 years in the industry.   Watch Tom's new special "Home Free" out NOW on Netflix! Patreon - Patreon.com/BreakingBreadWithTomPapa Radio, Podcasts and more: https://linktr.ee/tompapa/ Website - http://tompapa.com/ Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/tompapa Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tompapa Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/comediantompapa Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/tompapa #tompapa #breakingbread #comedy #standup #standupcomedy #bread #edhelms #theoffice   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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responsible. The conditions apply. I'm sitting next to this group of old ladies and they're talking about the hangover. They had just seen it

And they're like, it's so funny. Those boys get into all kinds of stuff. And they just get themselves in the worst pickles. And they get themselves out of it. And they're such sweet boys. And I'm thinking like, did we see the same movie? This is reaching. But what was incredible is that that movie, like, because we woke up the next morning

and we were horrified by our own behavior, it allowed like all. all the bros to be like, oh, yeah, look at all that crazy shit they did. Like, I wish I could do that with my friends. And then all the grandmas would be like, oh, they felt so bad about it. And so, like, there was something for everyone. It's breaking bread. We'd like to thank the good people at factormeals.com for sponsoring today's program. Make this your best season yet with nutritious two-minute meals from Factor.

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We're going to eastern Pennsylvania. We've got Atlanta. We've got Clearwater. a whole bunch of dates and more being added. Keep a look out for that also. We're going to be launching everything for the fall. So yeah, the people at tompapa.com, always very supportive of this podcast. So if you want to come out and see me live, that's where you can find out all the info you need.

Thank you to all the people that have joined up on Patreon. Very exciting. You have stormed the gates and now you're inside the studio. and it's been fun. People who leave in comments already. We actually have some ideas to change up the set based on what you have suggested. And it's really cool.

I'm glad it's a great way to support this podcast. We really thank you. It means a lot so we can keep everything running here at Breaking Bread. Make sure to go to Patreon, look up Breaking Bread with Tom Papa, and join, and you get bonus episodes. You get bonus material. You get extended stuff and also some separate material from out on tour and things like that. It's a work in progress.

And also tell us what more you want to see. Do you like getting just extra parts of the podcast or do you want some original stuff? Is there something on your mind? Maybe you want to see the rest of the crew. Who knows what? But that's the great part about it is that it's a very fun, active addition to the podcast. So thank you everybody who has joined up. And if you haven't, welcome.

You should go check it out. I'm going to hold it up for the camera right to start because it's great. When did the podcast? I listened to the podcast, the whole nuclear Matthew Broderick. Oh, yeah. So that was like two years ago? Three years ago? Yeah, about three years ago that started.

Three years ago. And that was, you're talking about the Abel Archer 83 story, which is all of season one. Yeah. And now, and season three just came out about a month ago. Oh, very cool. It's still rolling out, I believe. Man, it's, congratulations on the book. Thank you.

As a fan of the podcast, it's cool to, the podcast takes you through basically one of these stories for a season. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And to see just like little blurbs of all of the things that have gone wrong in the world is comforting and distressing and hilarious. It's all of the things. It's everything that's ever gone wrong in the world. It's kind of feels that way.

Well, no, you're right, though. The podcast is like a very deep dive. So each entire season is dedicated to one, one snafu, right? One crazy thing that's happened. And we all in the podcast, it's always been about trying to find things that are a little off the beaten path. Like things, you know, we're not going to talk. about World War II, the big snafu of World War II. Like we're we kind of look for things that maybe feel really important when you learn about

them and they are, but they have also sadly kind of been lost to popular memory. And so that's kind of and then and then the podcast like it's eight episodes like deep dive. Yeah. And it's really, really fun and immersive. With the book, I I just wanted to do something more accessible and, like, quicker and easier to digest. So, like, yeah, it's kind of a big, it's a grown-up book, but it's chapters. So each chapter is a different snafu. So you can just sort of pick it up and put it down. It's perfect for, like.

Yeah. I love a book that you can bounce. Yeah. You can bounce around. You just open it up and broken down by decades too. Yeah. To see, like, all right, who screwed up in the 80s? And then just bounce over to there.

Yeah. Do you have a, I mean, you're hilarious. and we've never spent really a lot of time. We've been backstage a couple places. So I'm very excited for this. Me too. You've been making me laugh for a very long time. You're funny, but you're also smart.

I put a jacket on for you because you're a gentleman. Yeah, you put on a jacket for me. Appreciate it. You got it. You got to wear a jacket for me. I don't do this for, do I do this for everybody? I'm not going to wear a jacket, but you better fucking wear a jacket. Do you have like a research staff that helps you with all of this?

Like, how do you get all of this? Yeah, there's a great team behind the podcast that also did a lot of research support for me on this book. That's good. And it's, yeah, it's just an incredible team. The podcast is co-produced with Film Nation Entertainment and their podcast department is great. We also looped in Gilded Audio, which is like a podcast production, audio production company. Right. And we wanted the podcast to really have like a very immersive like radio lab almost like a cinematic

audio experience like tons of sound design. There's production's great. Yeah. And there's lots of we interview a lot of, um, a lot of experts, historians and and especially in season two, we get deep into like actual people that were involved with the snafu in season two. Um, and that's intercut with obviously my narration and, and, and, some we do little bits here and there it's funny yeah but it's real it's like very real and earnest

earnest history did you have a history bent like why what's the what's started the whole thing it's yeah so i yes the answer is yes i've always had a little bit of a history bent um my i think i grew up i was i was lucky to grow up in a house with a lot of intellectual curiosity you know my We had just books everywhere. We had a huge bookshelf dedicated to National Geographic. Oh, really? And that was, I used to, as a little kid, I was thumb through those things and be like, wow, Aztec, you know, this or that or, you know, like, it just was such a eye-opening

and like just like a flame for my curiosity. Yeah. And I think it also is, I think there was a wild. where I genuinely thought I was going to be Indiana Jones. Like I saw that movie and I was like, that's going to be my job. I like, I love history. I love running around. I love getting chased by bad guys.

I'm pretty good with a whip. So, right? This is a no-brainer. I love running around. Yeah. Running around is part of it. I mean, that's what does a lot of what he does. Yeah.

But. Side note, what is the hit about the National Geographic? that is so hard to throw away. I literally, for some reason, start getting it again. Yeah. And I cannot, I don't go through them, really. This is so funny. I love this question.

I don't know the answer, but it is like, it's like part of our cultural DNA. Like, they're precious. There's another precious. And I got into this, this debate with my wife because we, like, in a few years ago, I was like, we, we have to subscribe. Like we have to have National Geographic's coming in. Yeah, we're grownups. And then she just sort of like, well, they're magazines.

So they go away. When they go in the trash event and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, what? Yeah, exactly. They go on a bookshelf. And she's like, well, which one? Which like, where are we going to put? Where are they going to? And I'm like, pick what?

It doesn't matter. They're national geographic. They're, they're treasures. And it doesn't make a lot of sense. But all I can say is like, as a kid, I'm so glad my parents were kind of had that ethos to just collect them. And, and because they're, I don't know, they're magnetic. They just pull you in.

The pictures are incredible. I know. And it's, I don't even really read them that much when they come in. Yeah. Do you get the New Yorker? Yeah. Same thing. Yeah.

A lot of great cartoons. Just the, and that cover is just, they're so good. You're like, this would be a sin to them. throw this out. So my grandmother in Nashville, Tennessee had she wallpapered their kitchen with New Yorker covers. Wow. And they were

all from like the 50s and 60s. So they were, I think they were only two color prints at the time. They weren't like the big, like crazy colorful ones we have now. Wow. And it was, yeah, it was kind of magical. So you're right. You come from smart people.

Yeah, or just curious people. My grandmother just kept wacky packs around. Do you remember those? Of course. Of course. Do you remember wacky packs? I had a whole, the inside of my closet door was all wacky packs because I stuck them on like an idiot not knowing that you're supposed to just keep them. They were the best.

As trading cards. The best. The best. Rachel, have you ever heard of wacky packs? Never. Yeah, never. It's some of the best comedy writing of the 70s. If you were a child, between that and Mad Magazine.

If you got into those, you had to go into comedy. Oh, my God. Okay, National Geographic, the New Yorker, Wacky Pax. What other national treasures are we going to get into today? Can I tell you a crazy story about National Geographic? I can't remember the specifics of this. I want to look it up. I'm sure your listeners will.

There was a family of Russian spies in the United States. in the 70s or 80s, I think. And the couple were spies. It was like that TV show, the Americans. And the reason that they were caught, they first became suspicious because they were throwing away their National Geographics.

No. Yeah. And that's what called attention to them. They're like, these commies. Yeah, like, who don't, like, now I don't think It has quite the hold on culture that it did. But in the 70s, like, National Geographic's like, you don't throw it those away. It's amazing.

And that was like one of the pieces of evidence that drew the CIA's attention to the, isn't that nuts? It makes perfect sense. It does. There would be something wrong with them. Yeah. Rachel, who's 13, wacky packs where they're kind of like baseball cards, like trading cards, like stickers. You see them. Yeah, and they would make fun of products.

They're parodies of known products. Like, Comet would be vomit or, you know, Chips Ahoy would be like chips of crud or something. And as a kid, just to see, like, everyday products twisted and made and mocked was just like the most joyous thing you could have. And the illustrations, like the actual product pictures, which were drawn were, were, like, really gross. and like and and and boogers crew like covered yeah like maggots and stuff like warts pimples all kinds of weird god it was glorious can you order them now can you can get them now current products are they brand new or are they vintage that we're going to buy you sometime because you got so excited i do get so excited uh mad magazine i got excited and uh and then they

they have a digital version so you can get it on your iPad or whatever. And I was like, well, that's cool. It's terrible. Yeah, but you can't do that trifold thing on the back page. Right, exactly. Where it's like another drawing. Yeah. When you fold it together.

And bring it in. And then they also would have the little flip corners. They'd have like little like spy versus spy. Right. Yeah. The best. Let me ask you about snafus for a second. I know.

in general this is all about like major things that went wrong and get kind of scary a lot of the times you've been living in this like area for a while and getting research and all this kind of stuff and does it make you uh does it calm you down that like all this major things could go wrong like almost nuclear war and all this kind of stuff and we're kind of still skittering along like it's okay or does it terrify you that what's happening at any time could wipe us out? Great question. And it's it's definitely more the former. Am I using that correctly? The first one? The first one. Yeah. Yeah. It's wacky pack approved. Yeah. Yeah. I write about it in the introduction to the book where I actually find it weirdly soothing to explore these things.

Yeah. Because, you know, we're in a crazy moment right now, culturally. It doesn't even really matter what your political disposition is. Like, you're probably kind of freaked out about what's going on. Like, if you're a Trump supporter, maybe you're still rattled by these, like, big swings in the stock market or what, or what Doge is. doing and all these things, they feel so scary and just unsettling. A lot of change. Change is hard. It's hard for all of us.

And then, you know, if you're not a Trump fan, then you're rattled by so much of what he's doing that's so like unorthodox and chilling in some ways. And I think what looking back at these disasters, which aren't all necessarily disaster. Some of them are, but some of them are also just like examples of terrible judgment or terrible, like not everything had crazy fallout. Right. But, you know, like in the book, there's the Suez Canal story where that giant container ship got wedged in the Suez Canal. That had epic fallout. Like that disrupted supply chains all over the world. It was like crazy. It basically like reordered world trade.

Everyone was like, hold on, we all depend on this tiny little stretch of water for like everything. One boat gets stuck. Yeah. And we're all screwed. Like we're all screaming for our contact lenses and kids toys and wacky packs and whatever else. But what it tells you when you look back at this stuff, first of all, it's fun because in that weird dark way that like driving by a car crash, like you just can't look away. Like we want to know. But then also, it does have this, I think if red in the right mindset, it does have a calming effect because the overwhelming takeaway, there's lots of lessons baked into each chapter, each snafu.

Right. But the sort of the gestalt of it all, like the grand takeaway is we get through this stuff. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like there are so many examples of even as scary as things might feel today. there's so many examples of this in not even that distant American past. Yeah.

Or if you start looking abroad, like cultural past, like our cultural past worldwide, it's just, there's so many examples. And it doesn't mean that things that that your fear is unwarranted. Like fear has its role. Like we, like some of us are, it's activating to be like anxious or, and that's, and that can be good and productive. and you can be an agent for change in a positive way. But what I also,

what I enjoy about this particular subject of history, the screw-ups, is that, is that reminder that like, yeah, it's, we're, we're gonna get through it. Yeah, if you go wrong. That's my feeling, the current feeling with this administration. Yeah. It's like when he started filling up all of these wacky pack characters,

of like in the cabinet. And you're like, well, this is what we're going to find out in this moment is do we need older people in suits and ties running things with experience? Or can you just put crazy guys with hair gel and former talk show host, daytime talk show host? And will that be okay? Yes. Like it may be just fine. Apparently, apparently it's okay. I mean, we're still here.

So far. We're doing this. No, you're right. It's, uh, and, and I don't want to sound too, like, soothing. Like, everything is going to be, because I do think there is, like, we're in a moment that does call, call for some alarm for sure. And there are, especially if you're part of certain groups. Exactly.

That are, all of a sudden, your rights are being challenged and, you know, women. I mean, it's, there's a lot of. or you're getting, or you're just getting yanked off the street and like thrown into a gulog. How would you do in an El Salvadorian prison? When you see those pictures of everybody sitting in rows like that,

how would you do if... I feel like you do all right. I think, I think we both know I would, I would kick a lot of ass. I would basically, yeah. I would be, this guy's a problem. Let me play for this way.

I would be fine. All right. You I worry about a little bit. No, honestly. I'd cry a lot. Yeah, I would cry. I would cry a lot. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I would do very well. At all. But I think I like your strategy, though. You come in and you're just like a rabid raccoon. Just like, ah! Yeah. Fighting people you shouldn't even be fighting just to hopefully keep people away from you. I'll just climb up on that.

top bunk and hide as long as I can. Those are, that's such a heartbreaking situation. It's like so, like just the, the, the treatment of humanity in that way. Just human beings. Just to see human beings. I don't care what they've done. Yeah. To put them, to those pictures of them all sitting, straddling each other in rows.

It's, is horrific. Yeah. And there's, and this, and to be sent there by mistake. Yeah. Yeah. What? Be careful on your book tour. I bake this bread for you.

Go on. I bake this bread for you. I started it a couple days ago. And then this morning, because I had to go to the studio to do my radio show, six o'clock in the morning, the alarm went off. So I could scurry upstairs preheat the Dutch ovens. So this is brand new for you. get out of here yeah and that's your little bag and you'll take it home um tell me what's going on here

because this is one of the most beautiful loaves of bread i've ever seen it's literally smiling at me yes it is you see that yeah yeah it's either smiling with me or laughing at me i always feel like on social media because this is the thing this is the magic of the bread is that since saturday when I got home and started feeding the starter, the sourdough starter. Wait, because it get back up? Like, what's going on? What's wrong with me? What's the...

I'm not sure. My kids have moved out. I've been baking for a long time. Okay. And I just, something about it hooked me. Something about the natural way of baking bread since humans have been eating bread. Was it a pandemic? No, before the pandemic.

Pre-pandemic. Yes. That's your OG. Thank you. It's like when you were into a band before everyone else was. And then everyone gets into the band. Yeah. And you're like, I, no.

Yeah. I was there. I liked R.E.M. Uh-huh. Since Murm. Yeah. That's, yeah. When I saw Jake Ellen Hall on, uh, on Colbert talking about his bread baking during the pandemic, I was like, oh.

Hey, come on. What a fraud. Yeah. Everybody's doing it now. But the thing about the, so you, you started on Saturday feeding the starter and what, and then having it, uh, mixed. Can I, sorry to interrupt. Sure. Go ahead.

What's a starter? That is natural yeast. Oh, okay. The way the bread was first made thousands of years ago, people were eating unleavened kind of breadish stuff. And then someone noticed when they had flour and water that it was active, that it was bubbling. There's yeast that's floating around us. And if you were to put flour and water in a bowl and just put it out on your counter,

yeast will come in and start to feed on it. and then you capture it in that culture, it becomes a bacteria, and that is the yeast that you use to bake bread, flour, water, salt, and yeast. And the yeast is just from the atmosphere. It's not, you don't add it? Don't add it. Oh, my God. It's magic.

That is, yeah. Yeah. So I got really hooked into doing it. And here's the thing about the bread, though. So since I start on Saturday, you've got to feed it, feed the starter, and get it all bubbly and active, and then you mix it, and then on Sunday I shaped it, and then this morning I had to bake it. But I've got Ed Helms on my mind the whole time.

This is the magic of the bread. I have you on my mind the whole time. And short of me going on and on about it, I feel like someone should put it on social media so I get credit. Because it seems very kind. The bread? Yeah.

Yeah, it is. Right? It feels infused with thoughts of me. Exactly. That'd be funny. Then you eat it and you're like, oh. This guy doesn't like me at all. Is this what you think my complexion is?

Is that part of it? Yeah, a little bit. Okay. So wait a minute. This is really sweet, Tom. You're welcome. I mean, not the bread itself. Yeah.

The gesture. And I love that. I, yes. And I probably, you probably relate to it. I would guess that your banjo is my bread. Mm. Yes. Is that true?

Sure. It's, it's less appealing to the other person than bread. I think like bread is a home run. You're always going to, you're always going to win with a bread gift. Yeah. A banjo song is going to hit maybe 10% of the time. We'd like to thank the good people at Quince for sponsoring today's program. If you spend a lot of time cooking at home, it's time to elevate your game.

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I did this for you. Just shut up, but thank you. What does banjo do to your soul? It just kind of thwaps on it like a rubber band. How old were you when you started? Well, I started playing guitar. I started playing piano at about I think I just started noodling on a piano as a little kid.

And then I got piano lessons around 10. And then I really wanted a guitar because I didn't know how to talk to girls. And that felt like, oh, guitars are like the bridge. Right. So I got my first guitar at 13. And then I started taking lessons from this one. wonderful, wonderful guy, Sam Worley, who was a teacher in Atlanta where I grew up. And he was steeped in bluegrass and old time music. And I was interested in that because I'd been spending time.

Most of my summers were up in western North Carolina. I went to summer camp up there. And I just had this sort of like, I just loved old music. Yeah. Kind of it felt like like I I was one of like I guess my thing as a kid like in junior high and stuff was was like Authenticity you know like authenticity yeah, getting to the roots of something so someone might be like Hey, I'm going to the REM show and I'd be like Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, because I'm gonna go see this obscure folk singer you've never heard of Nice and I'm gonna come back and brag about it But I really did have a deep sort of affection for like older, earlier forms of music and things that felt like, well, these are the building blocks for all the popular music that we listen to.

And that intrigued me. I guess it's part of the same history sort of like old stuff. Yeah. And so Sam was this conduit for me as to he started teaching me bluegrass guitar. And he also had a bunch of banjos laying around. and I was like, can I play one of those? And so he started teaching me that. And that was around 16 or 17.

Right. And then I took, I didn't own a ban. They're so expensive. I never owned a banjo. Oh, yeah. As a kid. But I did learn quite a bit. And then when I got to college, I had a buddy who was a really good banjo player.

And he basically was like, yeah, you can just play it whatever you want. And so I played it a ton. And he taught me a lot. I got to New York City after college. And there's like a crazy bluegrass scene in New York City. And there has been since like the 60s. Right. And I wound up taking lessons from Tony Trishka, who's like of really, I'm like, I'm like name dropping.

But it's like, it's not landing. These are huge, Tom, these are huge names for me. These are a big deal. You got to give me a little respect that I'm not like, yeah, in being full of it. No, but I was lucky enough to get a couple of lessons from St. I'm just waiting for somebody to say Bella Fleck. Yeah. But from somebody I really admired, which was this guy, Tony.

And then comedy really took center stage for me. And that was also around the time that I was seeing you in clubs around New York City and being like, I want to be like that guy. Really? That guy is crushing. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, you and Gaffigan and like I feel like we're, well, you were even, I think, more established than I feel like Todd Barry and Mark Merritt and David Cross and those guys were sort of like the senior class or like even the the graduates. Yeah, for sure. And when I was kind of coming in as a freshman, like, I just wanted like hang out with.

junior oh no you were uh you were already up there oh really oh yeah interesting where would you see me um seller up yeah seller for sure and then the strip what i see at the strip yeah yeah and yeah uh where i was at the boston comedy club constantly i don't think i saw you there but i wanted up posting there a ton oh wow um was that towards the end of boston comedy no it was It was... What year? What year were you doing stand-up? That would have been about 97 to about 2001.

Because I got on the Daily Show at 2002. Right. And that's when... And I was like, I'm not going to stop doing stand-up. I'm going to stay real. I'm going to stay legit and keep doing improv and stand-up and all this. But the Daily Show was so demanding. Yeah, forget it.

Like such a intense job. I was like, oh boy, I can't do this. There was a sickness to stand-ups where I remember I got some show and I was like, yeah, this will help me for the road. Yeah. And the producer was like, no, this is going to get you off of the road. Right. And I was like, what do you mean? Oh, I had the exact experience.

As soon as I got on the Daily Show, this great booking agent was like, I've got a tour for you. I've got all these things because I'm on TV now. So I have like this big credit. And I wound up going on this tour with Doug Stan open. Who, man, what just amazing, that wild human being. But yeah, and I was like, it was so stressful because I couldn't, I couldn't relax into the stand-up because I knew I had to be back at work early the next day or the, you know, and you're not doing this. stand up all the time so you're more terrified. Yeah.

All the muscle memory is gone. Gone. And you're just sort of like trying to cling to these bits that you've like done for 10 years. Not your best stuff. Yeah. It's not new, fresh stuff. Yeah. But. Interesting.

So then you go off and have this amazing career, but it kind of makes sense that you're writing. Like there's still that part of you that still needs to express in that different way, right? Yeah. I mean, from the, I mean, Daily Show, you're, it's pretty much. you're still involved and you're editing and writing. For sure. You're connected to all of that. But does this kind of satisfy that writery?

It does. That early stand-up guy? I think it scratches a pretty huge itch. It's more work than I realized. Yeah. The amount of just the density of a book and the amount of detail and the amount of detail and like rereading and editing. It's like,

especially this kind of book. Yeah, I mean, I'd done that on, on like movie scripts and, you know, long, I was a really active screenwriter for a bunch of years. And, and that is like,

even that felt like a lot. Yeah. Because you've got like 110 page script or something. You're diving in. You're always changing nuances. Yeah. This was like such another level.

of density that I think I went in cocky like yeah and this will be no problem but um so I was a little bit chastened by the process yeah but also thrilled by it and but you've got to be this would terrify me yeah because like if you write stuff about your life and you write you know the story about you with the wacky packs whatever no one can call it there are nerds lined up going wait a minute Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. This did not happen. This did not happen. Well, the nice thing about this is that they are, it's like each chapter is a snafu. Right. So it's not so deep. It's not such a deep dive that like it's and it's and the tone is very cheeky. So we're, I don't know, it's like, were you to read it with like the eye of a historian.

and just be like, and there's going to be some of them. You could, you could dissect probably in some ways. But I think this is a fun read. This is not, this isn't necessarily for history buffs. It's just for people that are just,

no, but what's more fun for nerds is to find mistakes. You're right. You know what? We used to make that joke on the hangover all the time. Yeah.

As like, you know, you're making a movie and you're constantly like battling the continuity police. Uh-huh. It's like, you weren't wearing that jacket in the scene before.

How could you be wearing that jacket? Okay, take it off, take it off. I was like, oh, but you had a bruise in the, remember you got punched so you'd have a cut in this thing? And so we'd all develop this little character that we'd do that was like, dear Mr. Todd Phillips, I couldn't help but notice that at minute 23, Ed Helms, who plays Stu Price,

had his tooth missing. But in the previous scene, he had just been, whatever, like, we would go on for hours. And I'm sure, yes. I've all got plenty of those comments on this book. That's part of the fun. Bring it on. It's part of the fun. Yeah, it'll be fun.

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It's really pretty great. Here's a little fun antidote. They sent me a bunch of meals, and I said, vegan meals, please, because they're always healthy and always delicious. And really, they come, and you just have a stack in your refrigerator, and you just drop, you just come in, you're like, what am I going to eat? And then you see those meals, you're like, oh, thank God. well, I was traveling. I had a long run on the road, so I left them for my vegetarian wife.

Yeah. Who does not like to cook? Yeah. Who every time I come home, everything that was in the fridge has gone rotten. Yeah. So I take off and she used them. You just poke the plastic. You stick it in the microwave. Within two minutes, then you peel it off. You put it back in for another minute. Within two minutes, you got this great meal of all the stuff that she loved. loves. Did she give me credit? Not really, but the Factor made her happy made me smile. Get started at FactorMeals.com slash Papa 50 off and use code Papa 50, that's PAPA 50 off, to get 50 off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code Papa 50 off at factormeals.com slash Papa 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping. Tell me about it. about that year, by the way, the hangover year of it hitting. And it was so explosive. I mean, it was like, you know, animal house level, big comedy, culture changing, huge moment.

Was it, explain that year for me. Wow. It was, well, let's see. It was just incredible. Yeah. Like so fun, also overwhelming. a little bit like, oh my God, what's happening. You know, I really, I, I, and intensely bonding.

Like with Zach and Bradley in particular, like we just went through so much together, both in the production of those movies, but also in those, in the roller coaster of promoting them and the press and all of it. but I will say I think there were it was like a lot of white knuckle kind of holding on for me For the first one?

Yeah, certainly for the first one And I As I look back on it I just wish I had like enjoyed the ride a little more I mean I did it was really really fun but I also I think I was like just

keyed up trying to like make sure I was navigating things right and making the right decisions and move through and and that's that's kind of who I was in that moment at that time. Sure. And that was. Was it a surprise that it was as big as it was? Or was there the vibe?

I remember when they were auditioning people for it. There was already a buzz, which probably came off the script being really good, right? That's a good question. I think you're right. There was always like a momentum to it. Yeah, it felt like. And even when I first got the script, I was like, oh, I got to do this. I got to do this.

And I met with Todd. And he was like, yeah, I want you to do this. And I was just complete. I was so psyched. Yeah. I was so psyched because I can't remember. I'd done a movie or two at that point. But this was like, I'd always said, I'd always had this vision in my head of like, I just want to do a movie where I'm in a car with a couple of my buddies.

And we're like terrified and screaming our heads off. Because that to me is like the funniest thing. Yeah. When like when people are like into like an action sequence where everybody's scared. But it's at the end of the day, it's incredibly funny. That had this weird vision. Yeah. I'm not saying I manifested the hangover.

No, there's something to that. But I did. I always had always had this idea of like, I want to be in a car that's like wildly out of control. Screaming with my buddies. Like we're scared. And because that makes me laugh like that's just such a funny idea. And then here comes the script and it's like, oh, that happens five times in this movie. And I got to do this.

Amazing. And then while we were making it, I can honestly say like we were laughing so hard. Right. And like making each other laugh so much. Yeah. And we were making the crew laugh. Like there were there were just moments that you could tell like, oh, this is going to look so good on camera. camera. This like this like physical comedy bit is going to land so great. I remember when we got to the set for the hotel room, which was not an actual hotel room in Vegas. It was on a soundstage here in L.A. And, uh, and first time learning that. Yeah. Right? This is why show business is so great. This is why it's so great. If you can fool everybody at any time. I mean, we shot a ton in Vegas. Yeah, yeah. But like that wake up scene. Yeah. That was on a sound stage.

at Warner Brothers here in, in LA. Really? And I remember walking onto that set and just being like, oh my God, like the production design team has just blown this out of the water. And like, I just like picking up you get to play. You're like, look at all this stuff. This is so funny. Like what could have possibly led to this, you know, this underwear right here on this

couch like what did these guys get into like we're having those same moments of discovery that I think the audience had later on but we're like walking onto the set like oh this is great amazing and you know that's so great one of the many ways that Todd Phillips is a genius is like surrounding himself with brilliant teammates right so like the the all of the yourself well really the only thing he did right was putting me in that movie. Can we be honest? No, but all the department heads. Right.

The director of photography. Yeah. The production designer, the costume designer. Like everybody, it's just like the best of the best. And not only are they brilliantly talented, but those crews, we made three very intense movies together, and those crews were like a family. Like so everyone supported. at each other and helped each other through crazy times.

Yeah. It's so great to treat comedy that way, right? Because a lot of times, you'll have, you know, when we were growing up, like, of these comedies and, you know, they weren't Rashat great. You know, there wasn't like a lot of, but to like have that kind of expertise, filmmaking for a comedy, it just adds to the weight of it, right? I think that was a little bit of what also was paradigm shifting about that movie. Todd shot it the way Martin Scorsese would shoot a mob movie.

Yeah. Like it looks gritty. Yeah. And like it's it's like we're sweaty and gross and it's lit dramatically. Right. Larry Scher, who won the Oscar for the Joker. Yeah. Also Todd Phillips movie shot The Hangover.

And he's just a brilliant photographer. It just has a way of seeing things Knowing how to like enhance the drama or the comedy of a moment Yeah, but I think it at that time we were very much in a moment of like Big broad movies being brightly lit and like Everyone looking really clean and chipper right exactly and I love those movies that's a lot of like sure That was kind of the you know like what movie like so many of Judd's movies

that like 40 year old virgin right which is like one of my favorite movies ever yeah but it has a look it's a very it's a very sort of like it's it's a bright cheerful movie right exactly and there was something about the hangover that was like we're not cheerful no this is like midnight run

yeah like this is dark we're gonna throw some dark energy in in here yeah and and I think I always think about the magic trick of that movie, which, because I was in, I found myself in a hotel lobby, about a month after it came out, I was in a hotel lobby in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and, which is a whole other story. And I'm sitting next to this group of old ladies, and they're talking about the hangover.

They had just seen it. And they're like, it's so funny, those boys get into all kinds of stuff. and they just get themselves in the worst pickles and they get themselves out of it and they're such sweet boys. And I'm thinking like, did we see the same movie? This is reaching, yeah. But what was incredible is that that movie,

like because we woke up the next morning and we were horrified by our own behavior, it allowed like all the bros to be like, oh yeah, look at all that crazy shit they did. Like, I wish I could do that with my friends. And then all the grandmas would be like, oh, they, they felt so bad about it. It's like, and so, like, there was something for everyone. That's brilliant.

Like, so many people could, and I remember I was sitting next to my mom in the premiere, like, kind of mortified. Like, I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, like, repressed Southern, you know. And I thought my mom would just be, like, so terrified. She was in tears after the. movie because she was laughing so hard. Wow. And that's amazing. I was like, okay, I think we're going to be all right.

Oh, so great. Oh, the impact was so huge. All right, I have a couple of side questions for you. Hit me. When's the last time you used a comb? Do you use combs? I don't use combs. I've used a comb in a very long time.

I think I picked one up in a hotel recently to use on my daughter's long hair, which was like kind of tangly, huge mistake. Huge mistake. When you were in high school, did kids have combs in their pockets? I grew up in New Jersey.

Yeah. Kids had, everyone had a comb in the right pocket. Yeah, that feels very outsiders. Yeah. Very, very like. Yeah, for a while, yeah, it wasn't the black, like, there was, like, colorful ones with my handle.

Did you have a switchblade? Did you have the switchblade? Oh, yeah, with my nunchucks. Yeah. Yeah. You had a Nunchucks comb? Yeah, didn't you? So no comb.

Do you brush your hair? We made them. Or do you just finger it? That sounds gross. Yeah. I'm sorry. We can edit that out. I finger blast it.

Finger blasts. Yeah. Finger bang your bangs. You can finger bang your bangs. There's what the wrong with that. Yeah. Yeah. Can we talk about Nunchucks for a second?

Yeah, please. We made so many. Nunchucks when I was a kid. You made them? Yeah, we saw a broom handle and then put the little eye screw in the end and a little, just a rope. Really? A piece of string. And then just like whew! Bap! Wow. So many injuries just from Nunchucks. Making your own nunchucks. Yeah, I grew up on a street with about 10 boys. No boy. And there were a couple of girls, but they didn't play with us. No.

Thank God for them. We were so violent as little kids. Like it was all war. Yeah. It was all BMX jumping over huge things and or each other. Like jumping. Yeah. Like jump.

And it would be like how many bodies can you jump over? And the only way to find out is to land on somebody. And the youngest. Yeah. And somebody would have like tire bruises. On them. Oh, scabs. A lot of scabs.

Yeah. A lot of scabby knees. Summer knees. Summer knees. Summer knees. Is that what they would call? Summer knees. Yeah.

Throwing stars. Did you have anyone that got their hands on throwing stars? Yeah, lots of throwing star activity. Yeah. Throwing those into the trees. They get lost instantly. Right. Exactly.

They're fun for a minute. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, I had to go down Nunjohns because I just remember like being so passionate about nunchards. Yeah. And in the moment, thinking you're really good.

Yeah, getting pretty good. In front of the mirror, like, I can do this. It's like, you're watching Bruce Lee and you're like, well, I can do this. I can, like, freeze with it under my arm. So I'm pretty good. And I'm not a brag,

throwing a kick. Yeah. What's interesting about the book is that a lot of the major snafus are like, government run. Yeah. They're like, like the big mistakes are made by big organizations, the Soviet Union, the CIA. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. For sure. Like, in one way, it's like, well, they're taking big swings. Yeah. You know. Well, there's one I love in there, the chapter is called Millennium Challenge. And it's about a war game that the military does in 2002.

to and they're basically trying to game out like Middle East conflict. Like how can we, how can our military respond well to conflicts in the Middle East? Right. So they're, so they stage this big war game. And of course, in a war game you have, you assign certain people. In this, in this case, it was a Marine colonel, I believe, Riper was his name. And they assigned him to play the Red Team, which was the bad guys. So he's, he's sort of like, you know, the bad guys. And then the U.S.

military is the good guys. And they, they start to engage in this war game. It's very planned out. And he's sort of as the bad guy, it's his job to kind of like try to think like an adversary in the Middle East that might be at war. And so he, he starts doing all these maneuvers. And he basically starts kicking the blue team's ass. What's the setting? They're like in the field? It's all, no, it's not in the field. It's all, it's all, it's all, it's all sort of virtual. Okay.

So it's like. So he's running his thing. Yeah. So he's running, he's making decisions and, and they're, and then, you know, each, each team, like, makes decisions. And then they have a, uh, a sort of team that, that games out how that would, how the results of these decisions. And like, oh, you would lose this many men. Right. It's kind of like Dungeons and Dragons, I guess.

Right. So, but it's big. It's a lot of people. And he starts, he starts winning because he gets so unconventional. And he's doing like weird moves that kind of are not the way that like, you know, it's a little bit like in the Revolutionary War when, when the Brits would line up to shoot. And the, and all the colony guys were just like, we're in the trees. Like, we're getting in the tree.

We're hiding behind stuff. I'm going to hide behind a rock. Yeah. That was like guerrilla warfare for the first time like in in U.S. history. And so and the and the Brits were just like, what do we do? I don't know. All we know how to do is stand in a line and load our muskets and shoot. And they got their asses kicked obviously because we have a country now.

But anyway, in this, in this instance, they, they start to lose. And so the American generals in charge are like, we have to change the rules. We just got it. We're just going to change the rules. And so they do. And the, this, the, the general, the, the, the, the general, the, the, the, the, the general, the, the, the, the, the, the general, the, the, the, the, the, the, the massive war game. Like, like, this is ridiculous.

You can't just change the rules so that you get the outcome that you want. Yeah. But they did. And so as a result, they didn't learn anything from this massive war game. And, uh, just a few years later. Um, there's a skirmish in the Persian Gulf and the Iranian, uh, speedboats are sort of taunting a U.S. worship and they're zooming around it in very unconventional ways that, that are very disorienting for sort of establishment military protocol. Um, but it's exactly what this guy had been doing in the war game that they ignored.

And, um, and, um, and it just is like such an incredible example of like, institutional like denial and like the need to to be like we're right yeah what we're doing is right and the way that we do it and the way that we think about it and the way that we plan it it's right and we're doing this exercise to reinforce that we're right yeah we're not trying to like on paper we're trying to learn stuff yeah but really and and I think what's also fascinating it's like in you know you can look at it both as like a sort of institutional problem but also just like a human an individual human psychology yeah problem of like yeah how often do we walk into things like I'm going to go into this therapy session and learn about myself but then like

the therapist might say things that really don't sit well and you're just like you know what fuck off I think you're an idiot and you leave that's what's interesting too about the book is that there's no real progress. Like you go by decades. You start in the 50s up to today. And it's just like, and you know, as you're reading it back to like the first question of like, is this unsettling? Like this stuff is happening right now that we're not aware of. Yeah. Because human beings do not change. Yeah. Like that all of that pride, all of the bravado, all that kind of stuff that leads to these major screw ups. Yeah. Really doesn't change. Is there a decade you found more amusing than the others? No. No. They're all equally amusing. And what's fun is I give a little forward to each

decade where I kind of like just give a sort of cheeky description of the decade, which which I think actually kind of more than I realized, it became a little bit of an organizing principle for how I wrote each decade because, um, um, decades. decades are arbitrary. It's just an easy way to kind of like parse out time. Right. But it is a way that culturally we we kind of assign attributes to decades and two generations and to these things. And so it, it's really interesting to kind of think of these things in their decade context because there's so much specific culture to a decade. Right. You know, like the 70s is like there's so much. like Vietnam chaos. There's there's the like civil rights is really like coming to head. There's so many and then 60s there's has of course civil rights is also a huge part of the 60s and and and and and the the the anti-war movement is is leading to this sort of hippie development. Yeah. I mean that's really right on the straddling the 60s and 70s.

Yeah. But it just it's just kind of cool and fun. It is cool. Like when you're When you go into the 50s and you talk about how the way we all look at it is like, oh, this very proper kind of bucolic, you know, everybody's getting along, very clean. And then you read the stories. You're like, oh, no, this was madness. That's just the cultural story we tell each other about the 50s. Yes, exactly. We do a thing on this program called An Uncomfortable Moment. We've had like eight of them already.

Is that? Come on. That was a good one. Our Cracker Jack staff, meaning Rachel, takes a deep dive. And sometimes we find some things that maybe you went out on a limb on or what have you. Off of your banjo play, I don't know if you're circulating this picture and you're trying to get credit for this. Or if this really did happen and I just didn't notice. but it seems like you were bringing your banjo

to the Super Bowl halftime show. What? Were you, are you trying to say that you played with Kendrick or did this actually happen that you played with Kendrick? I have jammed with Kendrick a lot over the years.

He's a huge bluegrass nerd as it turns out. But did you do this? Who did that? No, we just found it. It's footage from the Super Bowl. taken from the NFL broadcast. It's footage.

It's footage of Andy Bernard. That's actually a still from the office. Is it really? Yeah, because I don't usually play banjo with a tie. But Andy Bernard did play banjo with a tie. What's the, is it coming back? Isn't there scuttlebutt that you're going to be the new lead of the new version of the office? Oh, no.

No. I could dispel that scuttle butt right now. Yeah. Wasn't there some rumor that it was going to come back? Well, Greg Daniels is creating a show that is, that, what is it exactly? It's like a office-ish. It's office-ish, and maybe it exists in the same universe, but it's a different place, different cast, whole new thing. Can they change that and make you the head of it?

I'll ask. Okay. Oh, let's, yeah. I'll put my people on it. Could you send an email or something? I have email. Beach chair or boat? For me?

What would you rather be on? Lounge chair looking at the ocean or in the ocean on a boat? They're both amazing. And I did both last week. Oh, really? I went whale watching last week. Whoa, where? Santa Barbara.

Oh, Santa Barbara. Unreal. It was incredible. Really? There was whales in Santa Barbara last week. They love Santa Barbara. The whales love Santa Barbara. This is a thing I learned on this whale watching trip is that the current, the cold currents from Alaska come down and the hot currents from like Baja come up. And they sort of form this gyre right in front of Santa Barbara. And it's this big like nutrient rich spot where whales just hang out.

What? They literally have whale raves all the time. Like it is, it's like Coachella for whales. Yes. Glow sticks. Yeah. I flew all the way to Hawaii in search of whales. Didn't see one.

Go to Santa Barbara. Just drive an hour and a half north. Oh my God. And they're right there. Do you get seasick? I do okay. I feel like I've gotten seasick before, but only on like a really bad, like, fairy crossing and a storm or something. Yeah.

But yeah, I like boats. I love boats. I love, especially a sailboat. Get me a sailboat. I hate boats. Love it. I mean, I like, I think from flying so much my ears, I get a little seasick. The whole time I'm on a boat now.

I'm just like, don't get sick, don't get sick, don't get sick. Well, if you go whale watching at Santa Barbara early in the morning, it's super calm. Really? Like, it's very, very flat. And we saw a whale, I'm not kidding you. he was like he was just i don't know if he was on ecstasy or what he just was like breaching constantly like just constantly that's crazy and then flapping his flipper around who took you out there um we were on the condor express the condor express and i highly recommend it they were fantastic that's amazing they

give you snacks yeah they got a whole galley they'll make you a sandwich they will yeah son of a bitch barf it right up it was expensive to get to Hawaii Male or female masseuse? Female for me. Yeah. Do you ever have a male? I think I've had, yeah. They go great.

Yeah, it's fine. I just, it's, I don't know. Like, I don't, do you like a tough massage? Like, yeah. You like, I'm like, like, to grind. Yeah. Because I, I'm more just like, to me, it's like a, it's a relaxation thing. Right.

And I just like a, like, a Swedish kind of. Feminine touch. Yeah. light or touch. Right. Did you ever have someone straddle you while they were massaging you? Mm. It happened to me once in Santa Barbara.

And I told my wife, I was like, well, that was kind of weird. And she's like, she thought I was kidding. Male or female? Female. Huh. I think she was just little and had to get up there. Oh, okay. I didn't take it as anything, meaning anything more than that.

My wife has a different feeling. Sure. Yeah, I thought that's unusual. Right? I've never. I've never had that. Last question. You've had this amazing career.

You're really kind of creating a kind of like a little side like ecosystem with the podcast and this is going to be more of these books. Sorry, I know it's a lot of work, but you're going to create this kind of a thing. I honestly can't wait.

And you're, you know, hilarious and successful actor and comedian. But could you, could you go back to like a North Carolina small town, Tennessee small town, and not chase this part of show business anymore? And just play weekly, one so maybe on Thursday night, early show at the coffee shop with your bluegrass buddies. Get off the hamster wheel. And just live in a nice part of the country and play your banjo in a spot. Or are you having too much fun and there's too much that turns you on about the other part?

I feel like you're inviting me to join you on this due journey in our lives. It was so specific all the things you spelled out. And it was very wistful the way that you kind of spell that up. And spell of hot coffee in the mornings. Wine and beer after six. Fresh cut grass at least once a week. 34 seats. I do what you just described is lovely.

And I don't think I'm there yet. I am having so much fun. And I'm loving this kind of new, whatever aspect, new side of my career. I still want to make great movies. I love, I love working on movies. Yeah. It's so, it is so fun. I just, my friend was making a movie up in Edmonton and he's like, hey, I've got this crazy part where you come up for like two days.

And I was like, yes. Yeah. I've been working on this book for so long. I just want to get my head into like back onto a movie. And I get up there on this movie set and I'm like, I love this. Yeah. I love this so much. Like there's so much creative synergy happening.

happening on a movie set. Now, they're not all the same. Sometimes they can be toxic, weird places, but like the creative process is so great. Yeah. I just love it so much. Um, and acting with someone great, like being in a scene with someone great is just, there's nothing more fun for me. For whatever reason. I really, really love it. Same with a great TV show. If I, if I can, I feel like, for some reason I just feel like I have more to do in that space. Yeah. For sure. Maybe it's just that I just want to keep, I just want more of it.

Right. Because I do find it so gratifying and exciting. But, but I think I just turned 50. Well, I'm 51 actually. Yeah. So. Maybe in 25 years. Yeah.

In 25 years. But I do, I do see a lot of actors that, that are going strong at like 80. Yeah. And I'm kind of like. I really want to be in a rocking chair, like on a porch. Yeah. Hanging with my grandkids. I know, but the cool part about that story, I always love these when they'll be like,

so wait, Ed Helms left the business like 15 years ago. He runs a catfish farm in Tennessee, and they found him, and he just shows up and he was nominated for an Oscar. And then he went right back to the catfish farm. he said he gave L.A. the finger and went back. I love that story. Those are good. That is a good story. You're right.

All right. Maybe the catfish farm sounds pretty good. This was really fun. I hope you had a good time. Thank you, Tom. I really, really am glad to be here. Yeah, this was really great. And congratulations.

I can't believe you chose our podcast as the place when you're to celebrate the book actually coming out on the same day. Here it is. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Thank you for. We have pretty good track. record. A lot of New York Times bestsellers because they stop here. All right. I'm going to hold you to do that.

Yeah, knock wood. There it is. You're the best. Thank you. We got it. We got it. We got a kids. When you were little, you had to do you guys'clock of recreat. Always in trying to negotiate and do

make these exchanges. The appellee Negoti T-D you can't to renouing with this instinct, with without operation gratuit, no amount of minimum, and no free menstrual. You're made for negotiate, and the TD is there for you help.