Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 266 - Carol Leifer

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

The incredibly talented Carol Leifer joins us at the table! Everything Carol touches seems to turn to gold - Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and now Hacks. Carol shares behind the scenes stories of writing for each of these hit shows. She also discusses why kids can absolutely not be at her stand up shows. Enjoy!  Check out Carol's new book How to Write a Speech at Barnes and Noble.  For a limited time, Wildgrain is offering our listeners $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to Wildgrain.com/PAPA to start your subscription Get 50% Off Your One Month Trial with Trade, at drinktrade.com/PAPA Text PAPA to 64000 to get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus FREE shipping.  ------------- 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:39 Patreon shout out 0:01:09 Wild Grain Ad  0:01:54 TomPapa.com  0:02:58 Bread and bombing on stage 0:05:31 Comedians are good in emergency situations  0:09:13 The loudest snack is Pirate's Booty 0:11:00 Corporates  0:12:33 Stand up before writing and being funny 0:16:00 First open mics 0:20:08 Carol's new book and giving speeches 0:29:15 Best writing job - Seinfeld  0:33:05 Larry David  0:35:00 Mixture of Jerry & Larry and idea generation 0:40:45 Trade Coffee Ad  0:43:27 Wild Grain Ad  0:45:30 IQ Bar Ad 0:48:44 Italian  0:53:04 Carol thinks Tom can't dance 0:55:25 Ketchup and ranch  0:56:45 Working on the Oscars  1:00:50 Uncomfortable moment  1:02:50 Writing for Hacks and other projects  1:08:35 Being a woman in comedy ------------- Tom Papa is a celebrated stand-up comedian with over 20 years in the industry. Watch Tom's new special "Home Free" out NOW on Netflix! Radio, Podcasts and more: https://linktr.ee/tompapa/ Website - http://tompapa.com/ Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/tompapa Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tompapa Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/comediantompapa Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/tompapa #tompapa #breakingbread #comedy #standup #standupcomedy #bread #seinfeld #curbyourenthusiasm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Responsible The Conditions Sapplice Something you said years ago is still bangs around in my head. Really? Mm-hmm. We were at a party.

Okay. A New Year's Eve party at the Seinfelds. Yes. You remember this? I don't. I remember the party. And it was getting late. And then they started dancing.

And you said to me, Tom, do you dance? And I said, I don't know. You go, you said, you look like you've never danced before. And you know what? I would say the same thing. If we went to a party tomorrow, I would ask you the same two questions. It's Breaking Bread. Hey, everybody.

A great way to support the podcast. And all of the crazy stuff we do around here is to join us at Patreon. Patreon. Patreon.com. Look up Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. And you will have access to hanging with us when everything is over at our after show. You'll also get bonus episodes, stuff from the road, lots of cool stuff. Go over to patreon.com. We think you should join up because then we can talk more when all of this is over.

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And then you'll have great breads and pastas in your freezer. We'd also like to thank the good people at tompapa.com. we have summer shows You know, a lot of comedians I just learned Take off for the summer I didn't know there was an option I didn't know that I thought there was just teachers But apparently some comedians take off

But I will be going to Ohio I'll be going to Cincinnati And what was the other one with an M on it? Marietta Mori what? Marietta Marietta is that true? Marietta, Ohio

Marietta, Ohio And I'm going to Kansas City and I'm going to Santa Fe and then I'm going to what's the place in Maryland where all the, they eat all the crabs? Ocean City, Maryland. And then I'm going to San Diego at Humphreys,

this legendary outdoor place. So we got a bunch of summer shows, casino ballroom in Northampton or Hampton Beach in New Hampshire. You'll go to Tompapa.com and hopefully answer all the stuff. But I will be out there this summer. So thank you to the good people

at tompapa.com. I baked you this bread. Oh, that's so sweet. Just a minute ago, you can feel it. Oh, my God. It's hot. It is hot. Yeah.

You eat bread, right? I do eat bread. All right, good. Yeah. One of my biggest bombs ever was at a animal rights event that you asked me to perform at. I forgot about that one. What happened? Was it at the theater?

No, it was in a, like a ballroom kind of environment. Oh, really? We did one at the laugh factory. I think Jay was on it. And it was for the same group. And it went really well, but it was small. And then you had a, you're like, can you come do the bigger one? Right.

They were having this big fundraiser. And I said, sure. And I had a joke at the time. Uh-oh. I forget what the joke was about something about animals. But it wasn't, you know. And they started booing from the back. Oh, my God.

And I couldn't get. get out of it. And, you know, everyone up front was kind of nice. And it was this rookie mistake that you make sometimes as a comic. It's so humiliating to even recount it because it's such a gross way for comedian to try and get out of trouble when you're bombing. And then you start telling them why you're good. You're like, I've been on the Conan and I've been on the Tonight Show.

Uh-huh. And I'm doing a favor for Carol Leifer. And they're just like, yeah, but you're not being funny. But I couldn't be funny because these people, they just heard a trigger word. Yes, and they're very sensitive. I love my animal people. Yeah. But it's tiptoe very lightly.

Yeah. I was, oh, and the worst part about it was Ed Begley Jr. was in the front row. Yeah, big animal person. Yeah. And he, and I was looking like for help from other performers. And he was just like. Oh, wow.

And Fred Willard. Right? Yeah. And it was a bomb. It was at a country club. I'm remembering the walk with my wife back to the car. Wow. It was a long walk.

And hoping that a golf ball would hit you in the head. You would just pass out. Yeah. Yeah, but that was rough. Wow. Well, my apologies this many years later. No, no apology needed. You know, you go into those and then you get beat up.

right? I mean, how many times have you? How many times have we been beat up? Beaten up? Yes. You know what? It actually reminds me of a theory about comedians. I feel like comedians are very good in emergency situations. And I'll tell you why, Tom. Because our life as a comedian is very dangerous. You know that feeling like you're about to go on?

And the stage manager comes over to you and goes, oh, just so you know, there's an eight-foot drop. just six feet in front of the mic. But good luck, you know, and you go out there and, you know, we have to gather ourselves right away in a lot of situations. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And you just, and as many times, as many of those that you've collected,

yeah. There's always a new one. Always a new one pops up. Yeah. You're like, I've been through all of these. Right. And then recently I did a corporate. and, you know, no children.

Like, that's the rule. Then I go to do the corporate. There's children running around. And then no agent, no manager there. It's like, well, I guess I'm performing for adults and children. It's constant. I just had the same one. And it was a fundraiser for, like, a cancer thing.

And I'm happy to do it. Yeah. And some other comics were there. They weren't on the bill. but they were around. And they had done it before. And kids, in the front row, in little suits and ties, like from six to like 11. The worst.

And they start heckling. What? They started heckling. How dare these rugg rats. The one kid starts yelling. This one kid starts yelling, we're not all the same. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? You said you're all the same, but we're not.

I'm different from you. And I tried to like maneuver it in. Right. And then the youngest one walks up to the stage. You know, it's like banquet. Yeah. Like table. He walks up to the stage.

He's got his tie askew. His suit's kind of off. He looks like a drunk. And he just starts going like this. Two thumbs down at the end of the stage. With a look on his face like, what are you going to do now? Oh, my God. It ruined the whole last quarter of the set.

And everybody in the one ends, oh, isn't Billy cute? Yeah, the parents were there. funny. Oh, the worst. It's a, it's a disease charity. And I don't know who survived or what's, why. Was it childhood cancer? I don't know. I can't ask. I can't attack. I have to just go. Yeah, you're right, kid. I get the double thumbs down. Good night, everybody. And that, and people don't realize because they think when you're at the stage of stand up your coasting. Everything is beautiful. Yeah. It's just a joy to get out there. Constant. Constant. Constant obstacles, constant. It is amazing, isn't it?

Like, when you go to that corporate gig, you're not relaxed when you know you have, because it's not like going to a club. You're going into an environment you don't know their culture. Yes. And what they're going to throw at you. Right. And then all you're thinking about is, why didn't my agent when he put this? We affirm no children. It's so obvious.

You can't concentrate on your jokes. Why do you not want children there because of you're inappropriate and filthy now? Or because you just... Well, for what happened to you? Right. They're unruly. They're uncensored. They think it's their playground.

Yeah. It's a problem. It is a problem. It's so crazy. I just had a recent experience. This was... You ever perform at Wolf Trap? They have a beautiful theater.

Oh, yeah. That is amazing. one of the best in the country. Amazing. An outdoor. Oh, this was the indoor theater. Oh, this is the indoor. Yeah.

Perfect setup, Tom. 350 people, theater seating. Oh, nice. People have subscription. They sell it out without the names of the people. Perfect situation. I go on stage. The wife of the promoter is sitting there.

I also have a thing about no relatives backstage. No, friends. It just should be the comedians and the staff. That's all you want. We're in our bubble. We don't want people. Oh, hi, I'm so on. She started eating a bag of Pirates' booty on the side of the stage.

I don't know why this is the loudest snack or the bag they come in. It was so distracting to me. I had to say to the answer, excuse me, one second. And I went off stage and I said, would you please stop putting that bag of part? Because it was completely distracting. It is an incredibly loud bag. I know from having my kids. Really?

That bag is there's something wrong with it. See? Yeah. Someone who's anti-comedian was on the team that made that bag. Yeah, we have it. It's constant. It's constant. I remember seeing Bob Newhart in a interview like on Larry King or maybe even Tom

Snyder. It was like long time ago. Like I was just starting. And I remember him talking about how it doesn't matter. He's been doing it for 50 years. years every single night you could bomb. And the interviewer was like, oh, no. And Bob was like, no, seriously, I can go down in flames at any moment.

I was like, oh, that's good to know. Yeah, and especially you know with corporates because it's a C that you have not navigated and nobody has pre-selected it. You're just going into some den of unknowns. Yeah, and it's a bunch of people that are there because of work. They made them go. Right. They didn't say there's no requirement that they like comedy.

Yeah. And half the people are facing the other way. But man, when they go well. Yes. What a dream. What a dream. And that's the beauty of them paying so well. Right, exactly.

I wonder if they think that in their business meetings. They're like, we have to pay them a lot because we may witness the death of somebody. Oh, you know what? I have a story. Once I did a corporate that went. So bad. They just were not having it. It was horrible. And then I went into the ladies' room. And I was in my stall. And I heard two women talking by the sink. And one of them said, and somebody very good they can't afford. We'd like to thank the good people at Quince for sponsoring today's program. If you spend a lot of time cooking at home, it's time to elevate your game. When your cookware actually feels good to use and is thoughtfully made and looks beautiful on your counter, It just makes the whole experience better.

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Quince.com slash papa. So I waited in that stall. I don't know how long, waiting until I knew that. those women were out because I was so humiliated and I knew I, maybe I should have gone out because they'd be terribly embarrassed. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Who are you talking about? I was the only performer when you're talking about me. How long were you doing stand-up before the first writing gig? That was S&L? Yeah. So I was doing it for eight years. Eight years. So you got it. Yeah. Yeah. And I was not.

Well, I was unsure about doing it. Stand-up still? No, I was unsure about the gig. Oh, okay. But my father, I really credit him with setting me straight. When I got the offer and I was like, I still really like doing stand-up, I don't know. My father was like, Carol, you got to diversify with any profession.

You got to take this job. So I did. What did he do? He was an optometrist. Oh, yeah. And, of course, joke of my act. His name was Seymour. That's amazing.

And I have to always say after, none of you were above that joke. But. Were you funny as a kid? Did he think you were funny? Well, he was very funny. My father dreamed of being a comedian or a comedy writer. But he was joachimatic. He knew every joke out there.

Right. It was literally like, give me a subject. I got the joke on it. Right. And more importantly, as comics, he told jokes really well. I've yet to meet a pro that told a joke better than my dad did. It's a different skill. Yeah.

I'm horrible at those jokes. Are you? Yeah, like regular. I'm surprised. I'm not good. And they die on the vine. Like, I'll get away with it a couple times. Yeah.

And then like the fourth time, it just, it falls apart. Leto's great at it. it. Lenno, yes. He has a lot of them. He does. And he can do it. He can. I can't do it. He's a very good joke teller. So I watched my dad tell jokes and it was, I just admired him so much because, you know, he got the attention of people or if he wasn't really clicking with people and he started telling jokes, he was the king of the party, you know? And with the family, he was a star that way. So I was like, this is a pretty good, pretty good profession to get into. And he was so thrilled. But were you naturally funny when you were a kid? I, you know, I remember getting laughs when I would

do something silly or stupid. I always had a lot of confidence in being funny ever since I was kid. I don't know if you felt the same way, but it didn't feel like math, you know, geography. I'm not, you know. you just have a certain confidence in being able to make people laugh. Yeah. Or else you also wouldn't go into it because, you know, the humiliation and the hardness, the difficulty of the beginning years where you have to bomb constantly to get good, you really have to have a belief in yourself and your sense of humor that you can do this. Yeah.

It's almost delusional. Yes. Yes. But yeah, there's a, it's a really interesting thing when you have that wake-up call and you start doing it in clubs as you realize, oh, wait, no, yeah, I am funny. There is that natural thing. I believe in that. But there's a whole skill here. I have to learn to be funny consistently.

Right. I'm always interested. What was your first open mic night? It was a bringer show where you, where you, brought people. Oh, God, yeah. You know, you had to bring four people to sit in the audience. And if they bought drinks, you got on stage. Yeah. And I came in. It was like at five in the summer, June 12th, 1993. Oh, wow. Where? Where? Where? Watch that? That was on the east side at the time above a cowboy bar, a Western bar. Of course. And I climbed up the stand. I had my friends come and sit. And, and I, and I, and I, and, and, I, and,

I was there. Gary Greenberg was the host, you know, from Kimmel. Okay. Oh, yeah. And Greg Geraldo was the other comic waiting to go on. And me, and that was it. And they had no friends. So the audience was just my friends.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And you did well your first time? I did okay. Mm-hmm. I did okay. The biggest win was that, like, a joke that I had written worked. You know what I mean? Like the structure of a joke

delivered worked. And then I was just kind of like silly and playing with them and doing stupid things. But the high of no, I wrote that and it worked. Do you remember what the joke was? Yeah. It was they just came out they just came out with a law that kids they're going to give out condoms in school.

schools. They're going to give out condoms in schools. When I was in third grade, I needed three notes and a blood test just to get a ride on the bookmobile. There you go. Right. Right. And it's a well-written joke. Had structure. Yeah, it's great setup. Yeah. It was there. It was topical. Uh-huh. Very edgy. And yeah, but that was, what about you? My first five minutes, I did great. I went to catch a lot. I went to catch a Rancing Star with Paul Reiser. I always like to explain to people that when it is an open mic and the audience knows that, you know, the bar is low.

Yeah. So if you're okay, they're very generous that way. But I had a joke in my first five minutes that I did for a long time. Yeah. Which was the Trident Gum commercial. Yeah. You know, four out of five dentists surveyed recommend shingler's gum for the patients who Ju-gum. You know, who's this fifth guy? And what's he recommend? Rock candy and ju-ju-bees?

But of course, you know, the age of that joke, who knows rock candy now? And for that matter, who knows what a ju-ju-be is? But at the time, it was very, it was very current with the candies. Yeah, my father likes juji fruits, juicy fruits. I love ju-ju-juvies. Which is a ju-ju-beer cousin. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's not. not juicy fruits, juju-bis. Yes, I remember that. And he just had his birthday at it, and they all gave, my sister gave everybody a box of juicy fruits.

And everybody was like, be careful. They're going to rip your teeth out. Yeah, I'm a real candy fanatic. They're so good, though. Yeah, they are really good. Yeah. My father's trick is that, you know, they're hard. Yeah, they're hard.

But while you're eating them, you have your next round in your hand, and it kind of warms them up and softens them. I'm going to remember that tip. That's pretty good. That's a good one, right? That's pretty good. Yeah, I love candy. You know, what candy is my favorite candy?

Fifth Avenue bar. Ooh. Yeah, that's another old candy. Yeah, but I'm sure when they invented was like, you know, Fifth Avenue is, oh, that's very, classy. Yeah, let's do that. Park Avenue, maybe? No, Fifth Avenue.

Did you see this new one, the $100,000 bar? Who the hell are they think that? These bastards! Before, we have so much to talk about. Yes. Congratulations on the book. Thank you very much. Yeah, I was excited to see this title of this book.

Oh, good. Because I get asked, I've done five weddings as the officiant. Uh-huh. And there is a real art to this that nobody really talks about. How to Write a Funny Speech for a Wedding, Bar Mitz for Graduation, and every other event you didn't want to go to in the first place. It is kind of great when you're asked to give the speech at a thing like you don't want to go to because you get to do a set. Right. Yeah.

Well, comedians are always chomping at the bit to do a speech because stand-up is like a speech. And so we're good at it. Yeah. But Rick Mitchell, who I wrote this with, another comic, it was during the strike, writer's strike. And we had both coincidentally been to events where people gave horrible speeches. Right. And we just sat there, you know, and said, it's not that hard to write a good speech. We could really walk people through step by step.

And so not only will they do a good speech, but they won't be as anxious about it because people are usually so nervous and don't want to go to the event because they have to give a speech. Right. So that was the impetus for it. That's good. Yeah. And it's sold out now on Amazon, which is great. Sold out. Yeah.

So people have to go to Barnes & Noble. dot com. Oh, okay. I was going to say, because we could tell people not to buy it. No, you don't want to do that.

What is the, what's like one of the best secrets you have about, what's a thing that you would let people know that, yeah. That you will know, but most people don't know. Keep it five minutes and under. Yes.

What a great thing that is. When people drone on and on. And also they don't realize you're usually not the only person they've asked to give a speech. So then it's a parade of droneathons where people go on and on and you haven't eaten and they won't serve the food until the speeches are over. And, you know. There's nothing worse than watching someone drone on and then you see them put the page underneath.

And you see there's four more. And you're like, oh, no. Yeah. No, that's a killer. There's a real disconnect, though. There's like, I don't know if people just know that instinctively. Yeah, no, they don't. Because most people think, wow, I've been asked, you know, to give a speech to these people.

I have to show my love so that, you know, more is more. It's not. Yeah. Yeah. That's why it didn't take off as an expression. Less is more. Right. The getting a laugh in a serious moment.

like a wedding, like I do these weddings. Yeah. And I really take the time because this is big. Like the first time someone walked up, I was like, oh, this is real. This isn't me just that. Yeah. So you want to be heartfelt and you want to be kind and you don't want to mock what's happening and you want it to be special. So there's a little gravity to the situation.

There's nothing better than the laugh that comes in that setting that you've created. Yes. Right? Yes. Because it doesn't have, it's just, it's such a relief. Uh-huh. And you're expressing a lot of times something that people want to express but can't. Mm-hmm.

And also, of course, you know, in saying we want you to write a funny speech, there are ways, you know, of doing it without offending someone. Right. And we walk people through that step. But, you know, common things you know about this person and everybody else does about this couple, you know, is a great fodder for humans. because people also want to laugh at the officiant, you know, or the, I mean, the celebrant or the couple you're celebrating. What's your favorite speech to give in what proper environment?

Believe it or not, Tom, I really like speaking at celebrations of life. Because other than other speeches, it feels really catholicies. for me to get across what I'm feeling about this person and delivering it to people in a community that love this person feels so good. But also, like we talk about in the book, you can also be funny in those celebrations of life. And it's great because of having all the people there. Like, for example, I spoke at my cousin Jay's celebration of life. He sadly passed away at 55 of cancer. Oh, wow.

But he was an amazing people person, wherever he went, social butterfly. And everybody knew this about him. So I told the story about how we had gone to see with him and his wife, my wife, Lori and I, the Beach Boys. And we were invited to the after party. And I kept saying to Jay and everybody else, I want to see Mike Love. I want to go over to him because I opened for them at Harris, Lake Tahoe, a million years ago, and I just want to say hi again and see if it remembers me. Yeah.

So we got a little after party, and I'm trying to make my way over to Mike Love. You know, and when you see an opportunity, no, somebody else walked out. Another opportunity. So I go to the bar to get a drink. I turn around. My cousin Jay is talking with Mike Love like they've been friends for 30 years, laughing, talking to the point where I walk over. And Jay goes, hey, Mike, do you know my cousin Carol? She opened for you a million years ago.

Harris in Tahoe. That was the kind of person he was. And when I told that story, everybody laughed. Yeah. And you think so, look back on that person and their essence. Yeah, yeah. I had to give one of those when my aunt had died. And I was young.

I was probably 17 or something. Oh, wow. That's young, too. Yeah, but we didn't have a lot of speakers in the family. So I did it. And I did well. but then tried to put a message at the end of it. And no one needs a message from a 17-year-old

about living every day to your... You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't remember. But it was a real lesson of like, don't tell them exact. Don't impart on them what you're trying to say. Just say it. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And also it's just reminiscing, usually, about them. Yeah. And having funny stories. Like, I know someone who spoke about his mom at a celebration of, like, And it just told this story about how when he was growing up one day, she was going to the supermarket.

And she said to him, what do you want? And he said, I'd like some shredded wheat. And she came back home and she had three different boxes of shredded wheat. And she said, I didn't know which type you like. You know, so it's a cute story, but it also says what kind of person she was. Yeah, yeah. And it's good for the heart. But something we do say in the book is to always wrap it up with something.

You don't want to be, you know, Henny Youngman at the end of the speech. It's not about you getting a laugh. You want to wrap it up with something sincere. And just even when you say, let's raise a glass to whoever, that's a good way to wrap it up. You know, put a bow on the speech. But also what I found very weird is people, when they give a speech, you know, here's two. Mindy and Seth. And then they walk back to their seat.

It's like, go over to Mindy and Seth. and hug them, kiss them, whatever. Just acknowledge who you've just spoken about. Yeah. Here's a question. I've been trying to solve this one. Okay. It's kind of adjacent to what you're talking about.

But I, you know, you see movies. You see families that know how to behave. Someone stands up to give a toast and those, you know, a toast. And I always want to be the guy in the movie who says the witty thing and gives a little speech. says the thing and then we cook glasses. My family, as soon as you go, I'd like to make a toast, clink, clink, clink, clink, oh, yeah, and they all start drinking.

Right, that's interesting. How do I slow these animals down? Right. Hmm, I think that's a good thing you say. I have a bit more to say, but let's raise our glasses. That's different than a toast. I think toast signals clink, clink, clink. Right, right.

Yeah, maybe not even like bring out. Just start. Yeah. You can start talking without my glass. Well, or maybe say the thing you wanted to say first and then then then let's raise a glass and then they'll do it. Right. What was your best writing job? What was the most fun? Just pure fun. I know you're winning awards now. How many awards do you have? You know what? I just won my first Emmy. That was your first? Yeah, for working on hacks. Wow. And I won a Golden Globe, too, which was fantastic.

So yeah, I got those two beauties next to each other. Where do you put them? Well, they start to get in fights. Oh, geez. Competitive, so I have to separate them. You know what's so funny? The Golden Globe, I have on a beautiful shelf way high so that our 90-pound dog can't get to it.

Yeah. But it started to peel the bottom. So I got in touch with them just to kind of. to find out how I would fix it. And they're like, no, no, no, no. We'll come and pick it up. And we will go back to our Golden Globes workshop. And we pair it.

The guy just came today. Really? Is that like white glove service? That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's really good. Yeah, because people, yeah, people kindly thought I had won an Emmy before now.

Yeah. Yeah. But I would have to say my favorite writing job, and you're not going to be surprised. was Seinfeld. Yeah. Because, for a million reasons. But the biggest being,

you know, when you work on a hit show, it's different now because streaming and all that. But when we did Seinfeld, you know, it was the water cooler show. And I have to explain that expression to my son now. But it was Thursday nights, these giant ratings. Yeah.

And the next day, everybody saw it. I mean, you know, the marble. Rye is one of my episodes. Yeah, so great. And the next day, writers, we went to lunch at Brent Stelly in Northridge. And we walk in, there was a big banner already across the door. We have the famous Marble Rye from Seinfeld. You know, so not only that, yeah, but not surprisingly, Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David at the head of the show. Yeah. They set a tone that was so relaxed. And and good and equal, as nice to a grip as they were to a suit from Castle Rock. And that bled down to everybody else.

Right. And something that I also really admire about them, because I see it a lot now in other shows, is, you know, I don't know if you ever read Bernie Burlstein's book. He had a great book about show business. And one of his things was, it's tough to give bad news, but you have to learn how to give bad news. So like when someone wouldn't work out at the table read, where we all read the script beforehand, and a guest actor wasn't that good and they needed to fire them,

Larry David would either go over to them personally or call them and say, you know what, it's not working out for this entire part, this part specifically, but we'll have you back for something. And it just made such a difference. Nowadays, it's like they get the stage manager or some assistant to, fire the person. And it just, that old schoolness of show business, I still really appreciate. It's pretty remarkable because they both were just starting, you know, they had different, they had success in other ways. But it was early. Yeah. For them to be eloquent and thoughtful about that and the work and how to do it and keeping their eye on what was good and all of those things.

there's so much actually. It's kind of fascinating, right? When people are learning about all this stuff and knocking out of the park at the same time. Yeah. Right? And also what I think was amazing about Larry David, even in those early days of it not being a hit,

which today they wouldn't have given it the time to grow in the TV world. But he always stuck to his sensibility and his commitment to his comedy. Like, you started way after me, but, you know, he was a comic when I was a comic. He was a few more years in than me, but I remember he worked at the improv,

I worked at the improv. If you had an 840 spot at night, and he had the 820 spot, you came in at 815, because he could walk off at any moment if someone was in the audience looking a certain way or they didn't get certain jokes, he would go, you know, that's it.

And he would just walk off. And I wasn't there then during this Seinfeld episode, but I've heard this story that when they wanted to do the Chinese restaurant episode, where it takes place all in the Chinese restaurant, you know, the suits were like, it's not going to work. You can't do a show that's in one set in a Chinese restaurant.

the whole show. And Larry David stuck to his guns. You know, he was always like, well, that's what we're going to do. Right. So it's the beauty of having the confidence in your own vision that he's always had. That's, that's remarkable. Yeah. I admire that a lot. Yeah, because you get so swayed by all these forces. Yeah. And forces that many times you really have to buckle under. You really don't have a choice. Did it help that there was two of them that they had each other? Yes, absolutely. I always align their sensibilities to me. It's like Lennon and McCartney. You know, Jerry was like the McCartney and Larry David more like John Lennon. Right. And the mixture of it, the mixture of it made it really dynamite. Right. But they really, they really, they were.

were an amazing team. It wasn't like Jerry was a star and Larry War for him. You know, even in their office, their deaths were up against each other. Facing each other? Yeah, yeah. Right. And you would pitch to both of them story ideas. That was intimidating, but, you know, they were both there. And, um... Wait, uh, tell me about that, about it being intimidating, because you guys knocked around in New York together, your friends. Yeah. But now, and now, and now, and now, but now, Now it's a different role, right? Yes. You're working for someone.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's tricky because when you're friends and you work together, it can really go awry. Yeah. Or it can get better, which I'm happy that the friendship got even better with both of them. Right. And was that a big part of your attitude, I'm sure, of like you're not expecting something because you're a friend. You're there to do a job.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm just another writer on the show. Yeah. It was intimidating because at Seinfeld it was all about the ideas. If you had a great idea, you were part of the stable and you knew that your job security was intact. So when you would go in, if you just pitched a lot of stuff and it wasn't working and it was like, I don't know, come back with some more ideas, you would get worried that I've got to come up with more stuff because that's, that's the.

the blood that drives the show. Yeah, it's a weird thing because there are writers who are great at the ideas, the original ideas, and there are writers who are great at the jokes. Yeah. To build up the structure for those ideas. Uh-huh. Which are you? Did you have, which would you in your, is there one that you're better at or is that,

are they pretty equal? Well, I like to think as a comic, I love writing dialogue and jokes. But I really feel like I have a sense. I had a lot of pitches that got in. And so what was nice, then I worked for Larry on Kirby, enthusiasm, and I really knew his style of what he liked and what he didn't respond to. So I feel like that always gave me a leg up there.

And it was always a quirky, weird idea. Like if it was some kind of phrase he didn't like, like I told him, I hate when you go to pitch to suits, you know, an idea for a TV show. And they go, you know what? I don't love it. You know? And then he always takes things further than that where you want to say, so you don't like it. Yeah, I don't love it. You know, so something like that or just ideas that he incorporated.

Like when I had an Audi in the valley. Belly button. I would go to the service center and I had it decked out with a coffee machine and these nothing bunt cakes. Do you know that? Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So, you know, I'd have a coffee and I have a cake. And then I kind of found myself when I was in the valley and I passed the service center.

I'd go in and go, you know, guys, I'm hearing a ping, something that you could maybe check out. And then I'd have a coffee and have nothing bun cake. I knew that that was something that he would respond to. Right, right. And he changed it to licorice, but it was something that I knew. I mean, I just even had lunch with him recently. And I said, you know, I get frustrated now because I think of curb ideas that I, really have a good feeling you're going to like.

And there's no, we have no show to go. And I told him one of the ideas, like I have a lot of change at home. And I took it to my bank and they're like, uh, sister, no way. You know, we don't deal with change anymore. But I can't just get rid of it, you know? So I've put it in my,

not in my back seat, like on the floor of the backseat, hoping that when I get a car wash, somebody's going to take it. I'm putting the bait out there, guys. Come on. And, you know, he said, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, that is a great, terrible idea. So it made me just feel good.

Well, how many, what a cool relationship, right, to go from that. Did anyone else go with that? Well, I guess Byrd. John Heyman. Right. was there. But he was the only other Seinfeld writer. Alecberg was he?

Oh, Jeff Schaefer, who was his EP. Right. Executive producer. Yeah. He ran the show. But a small, just a handful of you. Yes. Did the whole ride.

Yeah. That's amazing. I wasn't there for the whole ride. I was just there for the last three seasons. Okay. But, boy, that was another fun job. Yeah. Really fun.

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Well, this was about you. And this is about you, but in a different way. Okay. Just things that maybe I would like to get your take on. Okay. You're a funny person. you look at the world differently. What ethnic group do you see and think?

I wish I could have tried that. Hmm. And I'm not just saying that because I'm here, Tom. But I really would have loved, I love being Jewish, but I really would have loved being Italian. Yeah. Because my best friend from growing up was Italian. Uh-huh.

And a lot like Jews. Very close. Yeah. Mine's Jewish. Like I grew up Italian, but. All my Jewish friends and families, it was like, I'd do well with them. Yeah. And I did growing up because Sundays at 2 o'clock, they'd have the big, we'd call it Sunday dinner, even though it was a two or three.

Yeah. And I just loved the banter and the love between everyone, the food, the focus on food. That's very much with the two, with the groups. I just, yeah, I wouldn't like. And even to, I liked when my Italian friends have expressions or nicknames for people like Jewish people. Like there's a movie out now, Nona's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, and it's my favorite food. Yeah, it's really good food. It's so good.

I know. What's your favorite? If you go to an Italian restaurant, do you have a go-to? I do. And I usually take John Heyman because he lives close by. There's a restaurant called Vito's in Santa Monica, and they have this dish. Look, it's called spaghetti a la Casa. I mean, they're not going to name it about their home unless it's great. This isn't related to Vito's pizzeria. No, no, it's its own thing.

Okay. It's spaghetti with the most delicate shrimp, but it's in a cognac sauce. Ooh. And it's just, I just, I just, dream about it. I too. I dream about it. You know, every now and then I'll just call a payment and go, let's go to Vito. We've got to go to Vito. I love it. Do you ever go to Mideos when the Italian place it was underground here in L.A.? It was legendary. It was legendary and they moved

because they put a parking garage over it. Oh, Medeos. It changed. I know. I don't like the new Medeos. I know. It's not good. This was a legendary place. Yes. Yes. It was under the building. You had to go down the stairs. Yes. But it was so good. And they made everybody feel important. And like I had just gotten here.

And there was like Scorsese over there. Yeah. I mean, it was just insane. Yeah. The food there was so good. It's amazing what a change of location can do to a place. Right? Yeah.

It's the same with clubs, like comedy clubs. It's like the comic strip will always work. That room is just, it's just. this comedy sellers just like and then other places they can't get going they move locations yeah there's something in the bones of the place yeah did you work the improv in new york right uh no no no catch and the improv oh okay we're gone because i'm very sad excuse me that they didn't hold on to the improv right the way it was because what a piece of history yeah before it was a comedy club it was a place Broadway stars just did their own thing.

They get, Bet Midler get up and sing a song. Who, you know. Yeah. And it was the perfect comedy room because it was a little box. Yeah. Box of laughs.

Yeah. And I always feel, and the great pictures on the wall, I'm always very sad that. Is the building still there? Do you know? The building's there, but it's an Italian restaurant.

And I can't even go in. I'd break out in tears. Oh, imagine though, if it's like the bones are there, We could get it back. I don't know. Do they know you're an award winner? Walk in.

Hello, I'm Carol Leifer. Award winner. Oh, this is good. This one I wanted to ask because something you said years ago is still bangs around in my head. Really? Mm-hmm. We were at a party. Okay.

A New Year's Eve party at the Seinfelds. Yes. You remember this? I don't. I don't. remember the party. And it was getting late. And it turned into

comedians and Broadway people. They were doing karaoke. Cariochi. I remember that. Yes. Broderick and all these great people were like singing. And all the comics got very small. And we're like, I think we may have to leave. And then they started dancing and you said to me, Tom, do you dance?

And I said, I don't know. You go, you said, you look like you've never danced before. And I think about that all the time. And you know what? I would say the same thing. If we went to a party tomorrow, I would ask you the same two questions. I'm always like, why do I look like I don't dance?

You know what? In a weird way, I think it's a compliment. You think so? Yeah. Yeah, why? Just because guys are usually bad. dancers. Yeah. They should not get out there. No. I like Obama talked about, you get a certain age, just do the dad thing. No more getting

out there really going for it. Just kind of keep it in here. Yeah. Just keep it in here. Yeah. Even what Trump does. Yeah. Just mimic that. Yeah. That's his dancing. All right. Yeah. Can you dance? I like to think I'm a very good dance. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, nice. I love getting out there. That's impressive. I don't know if I did that night because, you know,

Prishnikov is there. That was a crazy one. That was a lot of talent in that room. Yes. And they were getting up and doing, Nathan Lane, like, belting out karaoke. I know.

With Matthew Broderick. Right. We're standing there with Mario Joyner. Like, I guess we should go home now, right? I know. How am I going to sing Call Me by Blondie with these people there? What's your favorite thing to put ketchup on? Oh.

Do you like ketchup? I do like ketchup. But my wife, I used to love it on French fries. Mm-hmm. But my wife got me into, yeah, she got me into ranch dressing, tipping in ranch dressing. So that, there, the ketchup went away. Yeah, interesting.

I mean, I would say on a burger, but I'm vegetarian, so I have Beyond Burgers. Right. And they're not good on Beyond Burgers. My wife's vegetarian and my kids. Oh, and the kids. Yeah. And I was making burgers the other night. We would go with Morning Star most of the time.

They didn't have them. I'm noticing they're not a lot of places anymore. Prager's, do you like the Prager Burger? I just eat the beyond or impossible. My wife thinks that those are too meat-like. Oh, you see, but that's why I like about it. It turns her off. Huh.

Yeah. Okay. She's like, I don't need the experience of feeling like I'm eating meat and don't like meat. So she likes Prager's or a Morning Star. Yeah, or just ice cubes, plain ice cubes. How many years did you work on the Oscars? This past Oscars with Conan hosting was my 11th time. 11th.

That's so great. Yeah. What I love about that is there's, you just, people get that gig. Yeah. And they know they're going to need help. And they know we've got to go with someone who's great at this. Well, that's a, yeah, that's a high compliment. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I always love it. people, their biggest misconception I've found is that people think that the celebrities aren't involved with their pattern. Like you just give them a thing and go out and do it. Yeah. And that's not true at all. They like to collaborate. Right.

We also give them the sense that whatever you're not comfortable with will change. You've got to go out there and feel 100% comfortable because usually they're, actors who are not used to being themselves, going out as themselves, and they're really terrified. So in that way, we really, I love doing it because, you know, to talk to, um, oh, God, I'm blanking on her name, who's in, uh, speed. Sandra Bullock. Sandra Bullock. You know, talk to her on the phone. Hey, that's great.

She is, yeah. Yeah. Other celebs. You know, because of her. I know you're married and all, but Sandra Bullock. She's a lovely person. She is really great. So special.

Inside and out. Yeah. Yeah. So I really love doing it. And in the days, because I was lucky enough to write for the team with Billy Crystal. Right. And he was very big, like most hosts, going off to the side of something happens. I need a joke for that.

I need a joke for which has happened. Right. And it was one year that, one of the, Oscars had been stolen. I don't know if I remember that or not. Yeah. And so Erica Badu came out to present an award. And she had one of those headdresses that was way up high like this.

Yeah. And he came back and he said, we need something for this. And so I pitched, I think we know where the stolen Oscar went, you know? And he loved it. And he went out and he did it. And it's so thrilling, as you know, to do a joke. And it's a billion people. Yeah. God. Yeah. So I've always loved doing it. And I thought Conan this year was incredible.

He really, yeah. Really aced it. Yeah, he did. And it was like, it's such a weird gig because people are just like, I just hope they survive it. But then to excel at it is, it's pretty unique. He's doing it again, right? You doing it again? I don't know yet. You get good gifts at the end of that gig, right? We used to. Oh, what do you mean? get the gift basket that the celebrities got in the old days. And it was crazy what was in it. Really? Oh, my God. Well, little dumb things like a year's supply of jelly bellies.

To, it was the year that Lord of the Rings came out. And they gave us each a trip for two to New Zealand. and full accommodations. Jeez. And Lori and I went. We went, of course. Of course. Yeah.

Jeez. No more? No more. Somebody ruined it. Some celebrity gave it to a charity or something, and then they had a vet it and what the tax deduction was. And then it all went away, up and smoke. Oh, that's terrible. Yeah.

Thanks, big celebs. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Jeez. So does that make you have to steal things when you're there? You know, you get a jacket. Yeah. Like you normally do.

Whatever. Free snacks. We do a thing on this program called an uncomfortable moment. Okay. This isn't that uncomfortable, but, you know, as a comedian, I feel like you can point out the flaws in somebody and they're okay with it. I don't know if there's a flaw, but you tend to think that, I tend to think that you don't have much of an ego, that you, you're a, you are a, you. very talented and you continue to work and on stage and off. But I never see you, I never see you, I don't see you having like a crazy ego until I saw

this picture and it makes sense that you're at the Oscars. Is this true that you pitched this redesign of the Oscar? Biennue at board of VIA Rai. Embarked and profite. Embarked and celebrate. Rigolet. Publié. Savouré. Admire.

And profite. Via Rae, the voice that we I did. I did, yes. And what did they say? They're thinking about it. They're considering it. I love that.

It looks great. It does. It really does. Do you ever write screenplays? Now that we realize that this is the one reward you don't have. Well, I'm one quarter of the egot. That's not a big proportion. Right.

Yeah. Movies don't interest me because they're hard. They're hard to write. Did you try? You must have. I've tried a couple of times, but it's too involved, too many chefs. Yeah. No.

It's not my favorite. You know, half hour comedy, half hour. Right. It's a 30-minute, 30-page. script. Yeah. You know, a movie with a hundred, I don't have the patience for it. Yeah.

Yeah. Think of the elephant in the zoo. I want me to write a screenplay. Yeah, I'm not interested. Oh, 120 pages. Right. The trunk goes up. I don't want to.

Don't make me. Please. So you win these for hacks. it must be pretty cool to be writing for that show and those characters in that stand-up world of a veteran comedian as you are a veteran comedian. Right. I mean, there's very few people that really, really hit it on the head of like, if I want someone to write this character and know this character, who else is out there?

I was very glad when they added me last season. I loved it. I always like to say all great glory to the three showrunners because it really is their genius that makes it the hit it is. But I loved adding touches of my journey and what we could possibly give to Deborah Vance. Yeah. Because I was there back then when she was there. Right. As a character. So it was always fun to pitch them stories, things about my life is a comic. Yeah. It's interesting to watch comics pay respect to that show because it's very easy to see when it's not portrayed great stand-up and this one has pulled it off.

Yeah. When I first saw the show. Yeah. I was amazed because, you know, as a standup, when an actor does it, there are little tales that we see that are like, no, no, you lost me right there. Yeah. And Gene Smart is so far, to me, the only actor I've seen who's really pulled off being comedian. I mean, you totally buy her delivery, her stage presence. To me, it looks like any, any great comedian.

What do you think is the key? Is it the... That's such a good question. I don't know. I think it is a little bit of the magic of an actor lining up, matching the role that they've been given. Right, right. Magic. Yeah.

And she really pulls off the... I can make all these people laugh. But there's also an edge in my real life of the... Yes. Like that thing. That transfer. from and even when she's being mean offstage, there's still like humor in it.

Like it's darker and then she kind of turns it on and she goes, that thing that we see in comics all the time. Yeah. That back and forth I haven't seen before. Great acting. Yeah. Yeah, really good. Are you coming back on that?

No. I'm developing a show. Oh, yeah. For Ms. Valerie Bertonelli, comedy. Really? Yeah. Oh. So I've been busy.

Oh, boy, that was a crush. Really, right? Yeah. Yeah. Jeez. And she's still, still a looker. Does she ask about me? I'll ask her.

Thank you. Yeah. No, she's lovely, which is great, because you don't want to hook up. I think that's my phone. Yeah, you want to, especially when you're pitching a show, You want an actor who's like, I'm in on the pitches, I'll be there. Yeah. You know, open to ideas.

She's lovely. Did you go to her? Did she come to you? It's a little bit of both because we're both with the same agency. Oh, nice. So you know how they want to make that Shiddah if I could use one of my Jewish, Yiddish words. Yeah. Man.

So no screenplay, maybe a play? What about play play play? Play would be interesting. Yeah. Play would be interesting. I don't know. I really do like writing books. Yeah, that's fun because you get to go out.

Like when I do my gigs, like a corporate, they'll buy some books. Yeah. You know, you get to do book festivals. It is great. It's just fun to have. It's kind of like I always love selling Girl Scout cookies when I was a kid. It's just kind of like that. You go out, you know, call myself Wilma Loman.

go out on the road. It's great when people come up, ask you to sign the books that they've read already. Yeah. And it's like, oh, man, they carry this around and you made them laugh without even being anywhere near them. Yes. It's a pretty great thing. Do you have a routine? What's your routine about writing when you have a book project?

Are you strict about it? I'm pretty strict because this one they only gave us a six-month. Oh, wow. Yeah, window. So it's fun, especially having a partner this time. you write something, you know, you send it to the partner, back and forth. It just gets better and better. Yeah.

I've never written with somebody else that way. I don't think I'd like it. Do you like it? I did like it. Yeah. I did like it a lot. He's a really, really funny writer. Yeah.

Yeah. So sections where I was like, I'm out. Right. He could step in and do it. Right. Yeah. That's really cool. You really think I can't dance?

I don't know. I have faith in you. That whatever you put your mind to, Tom Popper, you can do it. Thank you. Yeah. I'm going to ask this question. I was going back and forth in whether to ask the question, but I'm going to ask it. All right.

Because I'm interested in it. It can be kind of corny, and I don't want to repeat what other people ask and that kind of thing. But you've had this journey from when. The Improv Catch a Rising Star, like these clubs are just emerging. This is a, this is a, the beginning of the flowering of stand-up comedy. Yes. And you work consistently the entire time and you've had great success and have a whole life in comedy. Being a woman in that journey, was it more challenging then than, than what?

what you observe now? Did you not see it as a challenge? And you just kind of... I didn't really see it as a challenge, but the fact that they're, you know, women comedians, there are a million of them. You know, that it's not unusual. It was unusual back in my day

because there were so many intros that were like, and now we're going to have a lady comic. Yeah. You know, it was really kind of the exception to the rule. Let's hear what the lady has to say, what her views are on things. So in that way, and they wouldn't put us up following each other. I don't know if you knew that. Even on another show, right, on the same show.

So I remember standing at the bar at Catch, Rita Rudner across the way, looking at each other like, shrugging our shoulders. What are you going to do? Right. And that's why I also encourage young people to like not fight a lot of things. Things will change on their own. Like, I think if we were rabble-rousers, whoever the female comedian was beside me, we want to go on after it. You know, it just wouldn't have played well. And it would be like, they were paying the ass.

I want to put them on the show. Right, right. You just have to kind of sometimes wait it out. I knew that things would get better. And once there were more and more women, it just didn't become, you know, the. abnormal thing of like, let's hear from the ventriloquist. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Were your peers, like the other comics and writers on the scene, were they always supportive? Always. That wasn't the thing. Yes, no. It's never, and I'm sure you've found that too. I'm assuming, people always assume comics were backbiting, you know, coming up. I always found, and especially I think being female and being in the, minority, so supportive and very welcoming, never felt they were like, ugh.

Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. From within the community, it always seems very supportive. It really just comes down to, are they funny? Yeah. Like, people will kind of, you know, shy away from someone who's not funny because it's uncomfortable. But it doesn't matter what they are.

And I think they always respected the fact, and this was always important. And to me, I didn't want to go up there and be like, am I right, ladies? You know, doing jokes like that was just geared towards the women. I wanted to do material and a lot of material that anybody could do. Yeah, it was universal. Yeah. Right. It's really kind of interesting.

I don't think people, you know, because everybody has a struggle. Everybody has a struggle. And everybody thinks whatever they are is the reason that it's not happening. Yeah. Right. We all have our own thing of why we are awful. Yeah. And why you're not getting something or whatever.

But the culture has changed so much. Oh, yeah. I mean, I used to know pretty much every comedian that was around. Right. And they were either in California or New York. Yeah. But I knew there were probably eight women comics then. I mean, it's crazy.

That is crazy. Yeah. And I knew even on the West Coast there was Lois Bromfeld. Lotus Winestock You know? That's it. Yeah. It's so weird.

Yeah. And now a million people. A million people. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many. It really is. And it just keeps coming. It does.

But, you know, I really admire the fact that you can, you know, keep going. And these specials, you know, one after another. It's just. What made you so resilient? because very few people have a career in comedy this long? I think because I learned a long time ago, you have to let a lot of shit roll off your back. There's, you know, so much rejection or hardships

or periods where it's just nothing's happening and you just have to have this not only belief in yourself that you can get over it, But, you know, bad things happened to good comedians. And, you know, you didn't get this gig or this happened or you really wanted this show to do great and it didn't. You just have to let it know that it's part of the process. Right. Having these peaks and valleys.

Right. Right. Don't you agree? Yeah. Yeah. I think of it rather than peaks and valleys as a big wheel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's like, oh, wow.

And you're like, oh, we're in one of these. Right. And then all of a sudden it starts to come around again. Yes. Yeah. I think of Lisa and Walter. Uh-huh. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. How she's hung in there all these years. She's so talented. So funny. And then she gets on this hit show. Yeah. The wheel stopped at Abbott Elementary.

Yeah. And not just stop there. She's great in it. She's a fantastic. Yeah. I remember watching it. I was like, wait that Lisa Ann Walter?

Because she would just kill in the club She was so funny Right And I always saw her out there Yeah Yeah And then you know It gets a little quiet

Or you just see Doing stand up And then boom It's just a start Yeah Yeah And really impressive Yeah

You just got to hang in there Right Amazing What else What else is the elephant What else are you going to do Right Exactly

You can't shift at this point No. You just got to wait it out. Okay, I'm here for the long run. Thank you for being here. Oh, I had so much fun. Take the bread. Can I keep the book?

Of course. Yes. Because I hear you can't get them anymore. You can't get it anymore. Except Barnes & Noble. Yeah, except everywhere you are. So you really made this bread. Yes.

I'm so impressed. I'm going to take it home and we're going to have it for dinner. Nice. Yes. All right. Enjoy it. Thank you. And thank you for being.

I loved it. You're special. We got a kid. When you were pretty, you've been brassed in class of recreat. Always in trying

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