Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 284 - Nick Stoller

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Today on Breaking Bread Nick Stoller joins us at the table! You know him from making every funny movie ever, but today we get a peak into the real Nick Stoller: the insanely talented baker. Sally from Sally's Baking Addiction, please step aside. We might just end the podcast here, it will be nearly impossible to top. Enjoy! Check out Nick Stoller's show, PLATONIC. Season 2 now streaming on Apple TV + . Also follow Nick on Instagram for more baking content @nicholasstoller.   Text PAPA to 64000 to get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus FREE shipping. Message and data rates may apply.  As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every Butcher Box for a year PLUS $20 off your first box when you go to ButcherBox.com/PAPA.  -------------- 0:00:00 Cold Open 0:00:29 Tour & Nambe Shoutout 0:02:04 Nick Stoller Intro 0:04:04 Diving into baking 0:08:45 Croissants & Sally's baking addiction 0:11:00 Nick brought many treats 0:17:00 Baking conference in Japan  0:18:56 Growing up in Miami 0:19:16 Chocolate croissants  0:20:42 Growing up obsessed with comedy  0:25:15 NY to LA, getting an agent  0:26:56 Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen, Jason Segel relationships 0:31:39 IQ Bar Ad 0:33:52 Butcher Box Ad 0:35:40 First time directing 0:39:45 Nick's Babka  0:42:50 Platonic, working with Seth Rogen 0:48:33 Comedy stars yelling  0:50:18 Awards shows, state of comedy  0:52:07 Nick's creative process 0:55:20 Bad Magic  0:59:01 Uncomfortable moment 1:00:33 Being decisive, writing is therapy 1:06:40 Privilege and criticism  1:11:19 Perfect comedy movies 1:13:27 Booking Japan trip and bread & comedy -------------- Tom Papa is a celebrated stand-up comedian with over 20 years in the industry. Watch Tom's new special "Home Free" out NOW on Netflix! Patreon - Patreon.com/BreakingBreadWithTomPapa Radio, Podcasts and more: https://linktr.ee/tompapa/ Website - http://tompapa.com/ Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/tompapa Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tompapa Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/comediantompapa Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/tompapa #tompapa #breakingbread #comedy #standup #standupcomedy #bread #nickstoller #baking #croissant Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Depos minimum of 10 dollars. Veil to play in a fashion responsible. The conditions apply. I want you to put me in one of your movies. Oh, okay. Is that? And then I just, sure. Okay. Is that, yeah?

That's how you got out of it? That's how I get out of it. I mean, people lie all the time in this business. You can say whatever you want right now. Damn it. You're in. You're in. I didn't see a yes as an option.

Done. It's breaking bread. Hey, everybody. I'm out on tour on the Grateful Bread Tour. Make sure you go to tompapa.com and it will lead you to all of the dates. We just announced a whole bunch of dates going through next year, even. We're going everywhere. San Francisco, Austin, Oklahoma City, Stewart, Florida.

We have a run in New York. We're going to hit NJPack in Newark and then go up to Boston on the same weekend. We've got the Borgata coming up later on. It's so many dates. A super cool time. Go to tompapa.com. The shows have been amaze balls. And also, nambay.com slash tompapa.

Look at how cool this is. My friend called it the Tiffany of Bread Products. Look at that blue. We've got cutting boards. We've got spatulas. Everything that I use to bake these breads that I give to the guests all the time. I was able to design with this company, this super cool art deco versions of it. It looks great.

It's very useful. Even if you don't bake bread, they have these beautiful flour containers and sugar containers and just a great line of stuff. I'm super, super proud of it. And I would love if you got some. And go to nambay.com slash tompapa, and you will get this beautiful box as well. There's a gift set also with a whisk, a bench scraper, and something else in there. I forget.

It's beautiful, though. Yeah, bread products. Go get it. Today's podcast was a blast. It's so much fun. We have Nick Stoler on. He is a great filmmaker, a great creator in comedy. He's done amazing stuff.

We're going to get to it all. You'll be able to, you're surviving Sarah Marshall, neighbors, neighbors two. Just a great comedic voice. He's running Platonic now with Seth Rogan, a good friend of the program. The reason I'm giving you a little intro for Nick, which we normally don't do on this program, we usually just roll into it. I just want to just give a warning to everybody out there. Nick is a big bread baker. He loves baking as much as I do.

He's been doing it as long as I have. And we jump right into bread because we couldn't stop ourselves. So I wanted to give him a proper intro because you may be listening to this and thinking, why are these two people, this is inside baseball, these two guys are geeking out so much on flour and bread. I don't know what's happening. So I just wanted you to know, we're with a comedy legend right now and we'll get to it. But we're going to start off losing our marbles about flour and rise times and croissants. He's the only person who showed up on the podcast with a giant bag filled with homemade baked goods.

We've had people that brought stuff by. They've been nice. We love everybody. But nobody has shown up with such great quality stuff that they made themselves. So I lost my mind when I saw the baked goods. We just jumped right in and started talking about bread like crazy people. So I just want to give you the little, a little. I think you're going to enjoy it.

I just felt like this needed some kind of structure. So enjoy my conversation with Nick Stoller. This is fantastic. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is really a thrill. Yeah.

I love your podcasts. I love your movies. No, thank you. And your shows and all of the stuff. And it's exciting, but not as exciting as when I heard that you also bake. Yes. We are, I don't, there might be others of us, but the intersection of comedy and baking, I basically was like, I have to be on your podcast.

I'm going to force myself onto this podcast. because I'm slowly becoming more obsessed with baking than I am with anything else. I know, me too. It's really kind of crazy. Yeah. Do you find, when did you start baking? I mean, I've done it on and off. I've done it my whole life.

My grandmother baked and was really into baking. She was a terrible cook, but she was a really good baker. Oh, yeah. And so I remember baking brownies with her, like asking to get her. But I really started, I don't know. I started making sourdough like in 2017, 18 around there. Right. Yeah.

And then just got, and my goal was to, I wanted to make croissants. And so that was my goal was to learn enough about it to make quassons. That was your goal. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I had the, that wasn't my goal. Yeah. But I was like, oh, I can do this.

Yeah. When did you start? And I was like around the same time, a little before, maybe a couple of years before. And, uh, did you get annoyed? Which is very, yes. During the Pindana. Exactly. Exactly.

This is going to be, this is going to be a podcast of us talking about comedy and bread without saying words. We're just going to be like, yeah. Yeah. Because what you were going to say, yeah. Don't you get pissed off when people are like, oh, in the pandemic, you started baking bread?

No. No. No. Years before. Yeah. Years before. Yeah. Loaps were coming out when everyone was scrambling around.

Yeah. And I always used Jake Ellen Hall as an example of going on Colbert and being like, yeah, this is how you make bread. No. During the, no. During the height of the pandemic, I got a, And Chloe Grace Maritz, lovely, directed her in Neighbors 2. She texted me during the high of the pandemic.

Hey, I remember you talked about baking when we were shooting neighbors too. What is, how do you do the like sourdose starter? And I was like, oh, shit. She's lovely, but I was like, it's over. Yeah. Now I was going to think I did that. It's exactly what you just. Yeah.

But they've all gone away now. They're done. No one's making bread anymore. No, no. But we still have to deal with the question of. So did you start during the pandemic? Yeah, no. I guess the no.

need recipe, which was a long time ago. When that came out, that was the first time I started to make. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was like tartine. It was the Mark Bittman no need recipe. Right. That was in 2005 or six or something.

I don't know. And I was, this was like around 13, maybe. Do you have the tartine books? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Ken Forkish?

I just have, I mainly use tartine. I mainly use tartine. Flower water salt. Oh, I have that. Oh, I have that. Yeah. I have that book. That's a good one.

Yeah. They've got some really, and what's cool is, as a writer, right, like baking, like doing the process, like really fits in when you're home writing. It's the best. Right. Because you can do a little bit here a little bit. That's how it started. Like, I couldn't cook. Right.

Because it takes hours. But you could. You can bake. You could work. Yeah. And then be like, oh, it's 20 minutes. I got to go. You just stretch it.

Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. It's a little bit like I'm just talking to myself. Yeah.

I know. You know what? Do we have an extra pair of glasses? Yeah. Who can give me? It's really funny. So, let's stay on baking for a minute. Yeah.

It's going to be the whole podcast. You realize that's all we're all we're going to talk. I'm going to keep bringing it back. I know. I don't want to talk. No, I don't care. What about Seth Rogen? It doesn't matter.

I gave him some of my croissants. He liked, you know, white corn like him. What about Ken Forkish? Yeah. He's our real hero. Yeah. I actually went to Portland. and interviewed him in an early version of this podcast. And it was like an off hours and I went in

early and just met him meeting him. And he's this legendary guy up in Portland who made this great book, but he also had this great bakeries. And meeting him was like more intimidating the meeting anyone in show business. That must have been terrible. I was like, he is my hero. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that must have, yeah, that would have, that would freak me out. Yeah, I was like talking about my my baking and then I was like out to my hotel later. I was like, why did I say that to him? This guy makes perfect bread. Why am I talking about my attempts at making an olive loaf?

Yeah, I would have been real, very, very intimidated. Yeah. So when I learned, when, so you start kind of like investigating all the other things that you can bake and when I learned about croissants and then visited some bakeries, and they show you make croissons? No, I don't. And that's what I'm leading up to. I saw that as one of the baked goods that I'm better off just buying.

Oh. I figure it's just too difficult to get the layers. No. No. It isn't. Here's the thing. There are a lot of bad recipes out there that make it. And so I kind of shifted from the flour, water, salt, east, or that book to the tartine books.

Okay. And so I kind of just used the tartine books. and just the way these things happen. Yeah. And honestly, the croissant recipe in that book is not good. In the... In the tartine book. It's not good.

There's a lot of these recipes are like... I made it. I made that recipe twice. It didn't really work. Kind of chunky. Yeah, because it's like dense and it just didn't work. And then I was telling... Rachel, yes.

Sorry. That there's a website called Sally's baking addiction that has an amazing croissant recipe. That just a very clear. clearly explains the steps. Really? Yeah, and a lot of her recipes, I'm not whatever. But this recipe, it's like very clearly lays it out.

Right. And I did that recipe. And then I have a theory. You have to make a thing three times, and then you've figured it out by the third time. And then you can freeze them, you can freeze them before you bake them. So you can freeze them, and then you can take them out the night before, let them rise overnight, bake them in the morning. It's incredible. And there's nothing better than a fresh bake whistle.

No, it is the best. Yeah. It is the best. The range, though, of croissants is pretty amazing. Like, you go from, like, these tartine, like, if you go into the tartine shop, yeah. It's, I mean, it's such a perfect croissant. Oh, those are perfect, yeah.

They're so good. They just kind of flake off. And then you get on a Delta flight and bringing out their croissant. And it's like, you're just using the word. This has nothing to do with. This is a roll in the shape of a crescent. You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I brought some of my-desk. You did? Yes. I baked this morning. This morning. That's funny, because I baked this for you literally an hour ago. I was, I do my radio show with Fortune. Yes.

Oh, I love her. Yeah. She was just in one of your films. Yes. And she's like, why do you keep getting up? Why do we take so many breaks? And I said, because I have bread for Nick. And I've got to, I'm running out of time.

Yeah. You got to get the bread. Yeah. I just, well, yeah, everything in here was, well, I brought three things. Okay, let's see. Okay. Don't worry about noise. Don't worry about noise.

Okay, so these are the quassons. I'm like nervous. Wow. I'm literally nervous. You're definitely hesitant. I'm nervous. These are quesons. This is more quissons.

So these are three kinds of quissons. Plain, ham and cheese and chocolate. Oh my God. I think the ham and cheese run there. Ham and cheese. This is a bobka, which I made yesterday. I couldn't make it today. And then this is the last thing.

It's a sesame semolina bread, which I've been making constantly, because it's the best Sourdough, some sesame, some Alina Sourdough. Well, I just want to take this moment to apologize to Matt Damon and Jerry Seinfeld and Leanne Morgan and Jim Gaffigan and all the great people have been on this podcast. You've been dethroned. You've been dethroned. Kathleen Madigan once bought me a make-it-your-make-from-scratch biscuit in a bag. nothing has come close to this

yeah well thank you this is amazing holy crap look at that you could make these I can yeah you can make them really yeah I'll talk you through it it'll be bore your listeners but I'll tell you the whole thing

yeah no you're my best friend yeah yeah holy Toledo this is so I'm gonna just slowly open boxes as we go through yeah that's the plane one. Oh my god. Look at that. Yeah. It really flakes like a real. We'd like to thank the good people at

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This is it. Watching you enjoy this. No, it is legit. Rachel, come. Rachel, just come over. Just like... I would say no. There's a...

There's ham and cheese and chocolate, so... Split that with John over there. Yes. This is a... I mean, this is bakery level. Like, really kick-ass bakery level. Really? Thank you.

Oh, that's incredible, dude. Right? Thanks. Come on. No, but wait. There's these laminating machines. Yeah, you can do it at home. These giant machines, and you feed the dough through a whole bunch of times and get super, super thin,

and then you layer that with butter. Yeah. And so I was always under the impression, and I did try that I can't, well, I can't do that. I don't have that machine. You just got to just roll it? You got to listen to Sally. Sally's baking addiction. Yeah, she.

Sally, I love Sally. Yeah, Sally's, you basically, you make your dough, which is very easy. You just put in the kitchen. and then you put that in the fridge and let it kind of relax. And then you make your butter block. And it's very satisfying. All you do is you put some flour on your kitchen table

with European butter ideally, although I've done it with just normal butter and it was fine. And you, I found the easiest way to do it. And then you have to, it's all measuring. So you have to measure the butter block. And I could literally tell you the measurements now, but I won't get into the, and you, it's very satisfying.

You beat the butter with the, with your, no, not with a mallet, with your rolling pin. Oh. So you beat it with the flour. So you kind of incorporate it the flour until it kind of becomes like Plato. It kind of gets it. And then you put it into this envelope that you've made out of parchment paper and roll it so it fits in the parchment paper.

So it fits in the dimensions of the parchment. Exactly. And then you put it in the fridge. You let it all sit for a few hours. And then you take it out, let it sit for about 20 minutes to a half hour, the dough and the butter until they're most soft. And then you make like kind of an envelope. You roll it out. Roll it out.

It's like very... So how many layers? of butter are you doing that? You do that. You first roll it out and then you fold it so it's like three, it's like three layers, you know, and you do that three times. Okay. And each time you do it, it's like an exponential number of layers. Right. So by the, and time you're done, I want to say it's 72 layers of butter. But you're just doing it three times. Then you put it in the fridge, leave it for a few hours. Yeah, yeah. And then roll it out and cut them and make them. Oh my God. Yeah. This is, I feel like I just learned a secret.

It's just going to Sally. It's Sally. I don't know if I'm releasing this podcast to the public, actually. Funny, my wife actually emailed Sally of Sally's baking addiction to see if she would do, like, for my birthday, this was as a surprise, a private, like, Zoom lesson. Right. And she said, no. And I was like, it honestly made me respect her even more. I was like, hats off Sally. You're on set with.

Reese Witherspoon. Yeah. She was like, no. First name basis. I don't have time to do that. All right, Sally. Okay, cool. And I wouldn't necessarily, I mean, it's a different, the rest of her, her website is a lot, whatever.

It's like chocolate chip cookie dough stuff. Yeah. You know, whatever. Which is very funny. Which is funny. Yeah, but this one, she's just very good at explaining basic. This basic thing, she's very good at explaining. And I tried a few different recipes, and none of them were good.

And her recipe's excellent. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. There are, as you know, like, when you start getting into it, you start collecting books. Like you start just picking up. And there's some like really very basic, poorly produced cookbooks from years ago. But you'll find something in there for blueberry scones. That'll just blow your head off. Like you know what I mean? Like there's just like they're not not everything that

they do is great. The photography sucks, whatever, but you can find these gems. Oh, totally. Yeah. There'll be, yeah, there'll be one amazing thing in it and it's worth the whole book. Do you get emails for the, uh, I think it's the IBEE baking conferences around the world. No. Well, we should go. Yeah, we should go. That's happening.

They're having one in, like, Japan. One in Vegas. Oh, what is? I don't even know what this is. It's like, let's see if I can look it up while we're talking. They, it's, oh, there it is, I-B-I-E baking expo. It's really for professional bakers. Like, you'll go there and, and, you know,

know, look at ovens and all the, but when you start really looking at it, there's like, really, there's like, you're going to love it. Baking communities, breakthrough solutions, we can make new friends. We can make new friends who won't be bored by, I could talk about it all day. Right, exactly. I've seen someone who isn't like my family. Imagine a conference, a convention center filled with people who want to talk about it even more than we do. I'm so into this idea.

I know. We can, we, I guess we're going to Japan soon. I think we have to go to Japan. I've known you for like 20 minutes and we're now going to Japan. This is to a baking conference. Showcasing the trends fueling artisan style baked goods. In two weeks, the Artisan Village will showcase artistry and innovation shaping today's baking industry. Step into the heart of craftsmanship where tradition and innovation come together to celebrate bread, pastries, and specialty baked goods.

That's right, Nick. We're talking to you. Oh, I'm into this idea. Yeah, that's good. I'm going to eat this now. Yeah. So where did you grow up? I grew up in Miami.

In Miami? Yeah. I was born in London. My parents were American. We moved to Miami when I was four, so I grew up Miami. I know. Why were we born in London? My parents lived there from 1970, 1980, and they just wanted to have a kind of foreign adventure.

So they went there. And, yeah, how about you? I'm sorry, I'm eating a chocolate croissant now. And this is amazing. What kind of chocolate you use? I use the, it's a, I get, it's like a French chocolate that's, I can't remember the name of it, but they're called batons. They're a special shape for chocolate croissants because it's a pan in the butt to chop the chocolate.

And so these like, there are these, yeah. But usually I use Guittar chocolate, G-U-I-T-A-R-D. I can't believe you get these layers. It's so insane. Oh, thank you. This is so pro. Did you guys like it? I love this.

I'm a tough critic. Yeah, Rachel. I didn't know that about you. I know you're a tough critic in general. Where? Car. Where's that? Car.

Oh, yeah. It's good. It specializes in chocolate croissons. Oh, wow, okay. I'm going to try that. Rachel, I appreciate you being a harsh critic and all, but don't tell them about some other great baker. Why not we're eating his restaurant? I'm getting a little bit upset that you mentioned that.

I mean, I don't tend to go to many bakeries because I'm always baking all the time. I know, but that's like, you know who's a really good director? You know a comedy director I love? No. Exactly. So how did you start thinking comedy when you're in Miami? I was always obsessed with comedy from, I remember watching Silent Live. as a little kid or whatever and like being wanting to write for it I somehow knew that

not wanting to act on it not act for it I wanted to I mean I did like acting and stuff for fun as a kid but like it was but I wanted to write for it I knew like I started it was Mel Brooks I watched a lot of Mel Brooks and then Saturday Live and then Woody Allen and James Brooks and were your parents comedy fans or did you find out my dad is in particular as a comedy fan and so we would watch stuff together. And then in Miami, there's a writer, a syndicated newspaper columnist named Dave Barry. Oh, of course. You're familiar to Dave Barry.

Legendary. Yeah. And he, so I saw a book he would write a weekly column for the Miami Herald. So I'd read that and it was really funny. And then I saw a book of his when I was a kid that I bought for my mom called Claw Your Way to the Top. It's very 80s. It's very 80s book.

But I read it and I was like, this is so funny. And I started to kind of basically just copy his style. I just like write and so and I remember going to a like killing time in like a at the mall and there was like a word processor and I just started writing one of these little things and then I watched I walked away to do something else and I watched as like an adult man walked over and like read what I'd written and laughed and I was like oh it's not just in my head this is stuff is kind of funny and so do you remember what you wrote I'm sure it was pretty I'm sure it was just a rip off of Dave Barry I'm sure it was basically I just wrote whatever he made and I actually wrote as a kid wrote to to Dave Barry and asked him if he needed an intern when I was like 15 and he wrote back to me very nice. No, I don't need an intern, but thank you for the offer. And then in high school, I started a satire magazine and then I went to Harvard and I did The Lampoon, which I'd known about, been obsessed with forever. But I was always kind of obsessed with comedy and comedy. Wow. So you discovered the route to Harvard when you were a teenager. I knew about it just from being

a fan of comedy. I knew I was, I mean, I knew about like Doug Kenny. and then the, and the, you know, all those Lampoon people, I was obviously loved National Lampoon's vacation. And I think the magazine predated me a little bit. I didn't really know about National Lampoon, the National Ampoon. I knew it a little bit. As a kid, I loved Mad Magazine and all that stuff.

You know, it was all the basic. I'm a little older than you, not by much. But there was a book, a National Lampoon book, and we were walking through the woods, my friends and I, and there was a story from the point of view of a penis. And we couldn't get, we couldn't walk. We were trying to walk home from school and we were laughing so hard that our knees were giving out. Like just sitting on rocks.

Read it again. Read it again. But when you discover that like subversive stuff like mad and Lampoon as a kid, it really has an effect. A huge effect, yeah. So that must have been a pretty, when you. you get to the point of being at Harvard and you were running it? The lamp, oh, no, well, I, I'm sorry, I don't know why my throat.

I went to, I didn't run, I mean, I ended up becoming, like, the version of the vice president eventually of it by the time I senior, but I got, when I got to college, I tried out for the lampoon and got on it my sophomore year and then was love doing it. And I did that, and I separately did improv comedy, which, and both things weirdly helped me understand a lot about writing and directing, you know, both sides of it. But I never, I always enjoyed, you know, I did like some theater and stuff, but I was, I never wanted to do that. What I wanted to do was write and hopefully direct. Wow. That's amazing. That's so cool. I love the early focus is such a cool thing. Yeah, I was just obsessive about it in a way. I don't need, I don't even think I

realized that I was until later. I was like, oh, I was pretty obsessed with this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like laser focused. Yeah. And, and that, I don't even think I realized that. I was. I don't need, I don't even think I was. I was. I don't and it's so cool that you're not like, I want to be the star. No, I'm going to write this and direct this. Yeah, I just wasn't, yeah. It was a lot of, I mean, it's a lot of, like, I went to boarding school and there was like,

we had this radio station and I did skits. I had his little show and I would do skits. That were just rip-offs of S&L skits. Sure. You're just ripping everything off as you're learning, you know. So I did that. That was fun. Yeah, it was really, that's kind of how it,

I found my way to it. So did you come to L.A. right from there? Did you go to New York first? I went to New York for, year. I did advertising for a year. And I applied to the shows there. This is in 1998, 1999. And then I moved to L.A. and I got a job on this. I was very, it was very lucky I got a job on this Austin Powers animated series. I was going to be on HBO. It never happened. But it got

me, it got me my first agent. And then that show ended up not. And I met like the two people running it were Donate Carey, who's this really funny comedy writer, and Mike McCullors, he was really, and then anyways, I met them, and that was really great, and they've been friends of mindsets forever, and... Amazing. So, yeah. It's all meeting people. That's the only advice I give to comics when they ask.

Yeah. It's just go out and meet him, meet, the more people you meet it. Yeah. That's really the whole way it's going to happen. And then also on that, I was obsessed with Mr. Show, and I watched every Mr. Show, and I'm obsessed. And I got, I walked into the Austin Powers Animator Series office, and my office, mate was Brian Passain. Oh, wow. And I was terrified. And he's not like someone who like,

he changes his vibe for you. If he could tell he's like, he's, I mean, he's a very sweet guy. But you don't know that at first. And I always remember trying to make conversation with him early on. And I, I came in and I said, uh, I went to see, I went to the Hollywood Bowl with my roommates and I went to see a Jemiriqui concert. And he just went, why? And I was like, It was amazing. So, yeah. But that was, it was like, you know, that Ridersome was awesome.

And then about a year, and then a year later, through my, like, I ended up getting hired by Judd Apatow and undeclared. Right. And you mentioned Judd earlier. Was he, an influence before you worked for him?

Or was he? He, yeah, well, I'd watched Freaks and Geeks, which was just, like, spoke to me, like, I was like, this is, you know,

at the time, there was some very funny movies, There were some very funny movies, but it was more like Fairley Brothers, which isn't really my tone, you know, and I love, I mean, I think I cried laughing at there's something about Mary. But it just was a, it was a different tone. Yeah. And I remember watching Freaks and Geeks and being like, this is exactly what I want to make. It's like he was, it's like, it's like he had gone into my brain and made something. Like, you know what I mean?

Not that I had anything. I had nothing to do with that. But I think that when I remember for the meeting for Undeclared, I had to come with some, you know, I was pretty close to college. and so he was looking for writers who were young and close to college age, and I came with a bunch of personal stories that were just tonally, completely what he was looking for. Right. You kind of share a tone, I think. So it wasn't like...

And so, yeah, and so then he taught me a ton about story and about how to write and all that. But each of these things, you know, it's like each, you know, the advertising taught me stuff about writing. Like, you kind of learn stuff as you go along, and so Judd taught me a ton about writing. It is, it's obvious once you say it, but you and Judd both kind of share this, uh, very, this combination of being very funny, but also very heartfelt and very, very, um, uh, character based. Like, there's, there's like real depth to the characters in both of your work, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's the, it always just, the comedy comes from character and it comes from a dramatic situation.

Yeah. You know, and not from, you know, I would say like jokes are free. It's not the jokes. It's the situation. And then it's tone. Tone is what makes the thing funny. Yeah. What was the first film that you did on your own?

Without Judd or what? Without Judd? I mean, I don't mean like completely on your, like, you were writing and directed. Oh, for Gangster Marshall. That was. Yeah, that was the first one. God, was that perfect. No, thanks.

It was really. I mean, that's was right? I mean, it's, it was a dream that movie. the entire experience. Yeah. Man, it was, did you, how long it take you to write the script?

Well, Jason Siegel wrote it. Oh, he wrote it. So he wrote it. So he, on Undeclared, Jason and I bonded very quickly. Yeah. We both were, you know, we both were really interested

in writing about, like, romantic relationships. Like, I would say, like, at the time, you know, like, Seth, like Seth, like Seth, I remember getting to undeclared,

hearing that Seth Rogen was going to be a writer. Right. I being like, he's like 17 or 18. How is this possible? Like, he walked in and then said, immediately pitched the funniest joke in the room. And it was like, and he's, from the beginning was a brilliant writer. Yeah.

But, and Seth and I shared an office and we just, we really came up together. I would say Seth and his writing partner, Evan, at the time, their artistic project was more like male friendships. Yeah. And I would say Jason and I were very interested in male, female, like in romantic relationship. That was something that we were interested in talking about and whatever, you know, the way to just get interested in something. Yeah. And after, like, after undeclared was canceled, Jason and Jason and I really bonded,

and Jason was writing this script about a breakup. And I had written a spec script that, I had written and rewritten a spec script that had gotten me some attention to didn't sell, but it got me attention. And then Judd and I also started writing scripts together. We wrote a script for Sandler that didn't happen, but then we wrote Fun with Dick and Jane. And I was getting some, I was getting experienced writing movies.

Yeah. And so I went to Judd, and then Judd started to get, I mean, this all happened over a few years, started to get leverage as a producer, and suddenly super bad was happening. Right. And 40-old Virgin happened. And then super bad. So I said to Judd, if I guide or if I help Jason through the writing process, would you support me as a director? And he said, sure, because it's all tone, you know.

Right. Right. And so. And you hadn't directed anything. No. Wow. That was pretty balzy. Yeah.

I was very, I was kind of just, I was like, I think I see an opportunity. So I'm just going to try. And I remember the meeting. Universal right before the meeting, I turned to Judge, and I was like, I'm going to talk about how much I've been on set and how involved I am. Because honestly, I'm undeclared. There's all that. And he was like, no, don't say anything. Oh, really? It was like, just be quiet and cocky. And I was like, okay. So I just sat there silently. That's great advice. Yeah, yeah. He was like, don't say anything. What's this guy thinking about? Yeah, it's like, it's like,

oh, right, that's like, exactly, be the mysterious alpha dog, I guess. Yeah. So yeah, so that was kind of. That's brilliant. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. IQ Bar is the Better for You plant protein-based snack made with brain-boasting nutrients to refuel, nourish, and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash.

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the podcast and get some really great food in your face. And so they greenlit it and you were able to just go and direct it. I went and direct it, yeah. And at the time, I mean, it's not a small budget. You're in Hawaii. You're doing... It's a gigantic budget now. Yeah. Yeah. Man, oh man. Yeah. Did you have anyone shadowing you? Did you freak out? Or were you confident, like, I got this? I was, you know, the main thing I've learned as I've directed more and more is when to move on, like, in terms of, like, you shoot the scene and you know you've gotten it, you know. So I think that my lack of confidence, there were two things. I think I probably shot a few

too many takes. And the other thing was that at the time, like, I didn't understand coverage, like at all. I didn't understand it at all. And really? And later, when we finished the movie and it was fine, Jason said to me that first week I was a little worried about it. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I fully, and I had a great DP, this DP name Russ Also Brooke, who was very patient, and he'd worked with a lot of first-time directors. Uh-huh.

Or first time, he, he deped super bad. Greg Matole was not a first-time director, but he kind of was good at like, you know, and he kind of drew out on a piece of paper how coverage works. Right. I fully didn't understand it still he like was very patient He's like do you get it? I was like totally I like didn't get it And then I kind of yeah

And I remember that that first week Just being like you know But it was you know but it went Yeah I don't know it was besides coverage Yeah besides coverage Which I just relied on Russ to be like These are the shots we need I tone it's all tone

You know right tone And I got nice I would shoot stuff that was off tone Because I was just nervous But I kind of knew what I was shooting Was wrong And so then and then just get the confidence to be like, no, it's not this.

It's this. Right, right. Man, but that's, I mean, to be confident in your tone. Oh, yeah. Right? For that first thing is like, I mean, in the way, the story you're telling of having all of this experience in developing your taste and all of that, it's natural, but you could easily get to that position and be like, not trust yourself because you're in a new role, you know?

Yeah, it was, I think, the years of working with Judd and also all the stuff that I had personally fall in love with and wanted it to be. And I always said, I got to make, you know, I always thought that if I had the opportunity to direct, and I was lucky enough, I'd first have to direct a few things I didn't really want to direct. Yeah. And I got to direct exactly the thing I wanted to direct right away. Yeah.

It was a kind of amazing blessing. Yeah. No, that is amazing. And so I totally knew what it was in a way that I think if I'd had to do something, I don't know, broader or whatever that I might not have known exactly how to navigate it. Yeah. And it's probably honestly why Judd said, sure, I'll support you because he probably understood in some way that I had a sense of what it should be. Yeah. Yeah, man, if they had put you on like an episode of some bad show first, you know, to direct one of those, it could start to affect what you're...

Or you just don't know. I wouldn't know. It's like, it's like that National Ampoon, the Ryan Reynolds, like, van, whatever those movies are called. I can't remember what they're called. But, you know, it's like, at the time it was like broad stuff, like, or American Pie. Like, Bercuai is a funny movie. I would not know how to do that. It's like that kind of thing. Yeah. So I think the ability to get to do the thing that I knew how to do. And Jason and I also shared a point of view. Right.

And he was my partner on it. And then there's another great, an amazing writer. And director Rodney Rothman was a producer on it. He's a great writer. And then he hung out and helped too. So it was kind of a big group project. Right. Did you notice how during your last couple of answers,

how I complimented you in silence. Did you notice what I did? You nodded, right? No, I ate every, I ate a whole chocolate croissant in like three bites and then used the spit on my finger to get the crumbs off of the table. Should we have this or you want me to take this? I want you to take that home. Should we have the Bobka?

Yeah, because I can tell you're confident about it. I want you to try this because it's really, I think I might have a piece of it too. Oh boy. This is, this is really good. Like, like bobka? What? I'm good for now, thank you.

Are you sure? It's gonna be the best bovka you've ever had. Oh my God. I'm gonna say it right now. I'm just gonna be, I'm just gonna say it. Oh, it's dense.

Yeah. I've never had it. You've never had it? You've never had bobca? Well, what do you mean? You're like 23. Yeah. Oh, this is good.

This is a messy thing. Oh my God. I want to take a picture. of it. It's like a lava rock. I'm going to go portrait mode. It's a good. Oh boy.

It really is like a hot. I was in Hawaii and I was at a volcano. It does. Yeah, you're right. And the path was filled with these. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to give a thumbs up like it's good. Wait, I got to take it out of portrait. Because you don't know if it's good unless there's a thumbs up. Holy cow, it's amazing. I'm going to let you cut it.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, because you know your way around your vodka. Okay, let's see. For anyone just listening, it really just look like a lava rock. Okay, there we go. Do you guys want a piece? I'll try it.

Yeah. Yeah, come on. Okay, there we go. I can cut these. Note to self, we should get plates. We used to have plates. But after not one guest, bringing us shit.

Yeah. I just assumed that people brought them on hand. I was worried that people are always bringing you stuff. No. No. Yeah. She didn't bring you anything? Nothing. She does. She bakes. She claims she bates. She says she does. Yeah, because I emailed her a recipe for ammonia cookies, which are really good. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Whoa, look at that. Yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you. I'm going to take another picture. Okay. This is my, I have a similar joke in my ass.

about how I'm using my iPhone to look for cabins in the woods, in the woods, because I just want to get out of cities. And I'm like, what's happened to me? I used to look at, look for porn. And I'm looking for cabins. Oh, yeah. I just look at recipes. Yeah. I'm taking pictures of your.

Yeah. Oh, my God. How is it, kids? I didn't grab my piece. Oh, you don't have your piece yet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I'll do it for you. Hell of you. Thank you very much. Take it another piece. Oh, my God. It's good. Wow. Again, apologies to everybody listening. Bobca's good.

Look at the swirl. It's a good swirl. It's a fun recipe. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, no kidding. So, Plotonic is, it's wrapped, right?

We've done a second season. We're waiting to, it seems as if we are potentially going to maybe get a third season, but we don't know yet. Right, right. So I probably shouldn't even say that. Well, I'm just asking because we want you to come on the podcast every week. And if you're filming it's not going to. I'll come back anytime. Yeah.

How cool, though. I mean, talk about the friends' advice that all these years later, you're, you've got Seth and this very popular show. You guys are still rocking together. Yeah, I feel so lucky that I met him. We were both essentially kids, and we both kind of, we've just come up together,

and he's just so funny and just like, have you interviewed him? Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was on. He didn't mention it? He did not mention it. That's kind of messed up.

Yeah, it's kind of weird. I gave him bread, right? We gave him bread and then followed up to see if he liked the bread. and didn't hear anything. All right, Rach? Sorry, who is this? Seth Rogen.

Oh. Didn't we follow up to see? Sometimes people think that I'm using the bread to be their friends. Mm-hmm. You just want to know if they like it. I just want to know if they liked it. No.

Julie Bowen did the same thing. We were trying to... She didn't respond? No. I was like... Biennue at board of Via Rai. Embarked and profited. Embarked and relaxed.

Tirote, bookine, oh, so si. And profite. Vi-a-rail, the voice we love that we're. Did they? It's weird when you give someone a bake thing, and they don't respond in any way. No. I mean, you just want, like, that was good.

Yeah, right, exactly. You need a lot. No, you want to. Thanks, that was really good. Oh, I'm needy about it. When I hand it out to people in the neighborhood, you know, because you always bake more than you can eat, I give it to my neighbors.

If I don't hear anything by the morning, I'm like, so? How was it? Oh, yeah. Oh, amazing. It was the best bread. Yeah. But I'm not going to not get a compliment. But if they said, oh, my, it was good.

If they, like, proactively were like, it was, do you need more than that? Would I need more than that? Yeah. I guess it depends on the week. It depends how I'm feeling about myself. You know. Yeah. Who came up?

the idea for Platonic. Is that your idea? It's my wife's. Oh, really? So yeah. So my wife, Francesca, and I do the show together. And she, it's based on her, she had a, she had a few very close guy friends in her teens and 20s. She's still close with them. But she started to notice, as we all coupled up and got married, that we would go out to dinner and I would be talking to her guy friend and she would be talking to her guy friend's wife. And she likes, she loves their wives. It's not that she did, but she started to be like, it's weird that this is the way it always. separates. And then we were talking, we were battering on different TV show ideas. And she was like, what about this?

And I was like, that's a great idea. Right. Was she writer and stuff before? Like, she's, she did, her career.

So she is, she started as a novelist. And she wrote a novel around, around the time I met her, she, her novel was coming out. And then we, or a little bit before.

And then she, and then we did, a show called Friends from College for Netflix together. That was really fun and it was a blast and then after that show was canceled after two seasons we started talking about other ideas

when Plataa came up and then as we were figuring it out we were like oh it should be this you know man and women are best friends and they have had a falling out and we wanted to go to Rose we went to Rose and Rose she was into the idea and she said we asked her who she'd want us to go to and she said

Seth and Seth and Rose have neighbors and neighbors too. They have such incredible chemistry. Right, yeah. And so we went to Seth and they love working together. And so it kind of came together pretty quickly. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. They are so good together.

Yeah, they have, their chemistry is just off the charts. Yeah, yeah. It's really subtle. Yeah. They have like these very comedic moments of just... Well, they really find each other, they just do legitimately crack each other up. And their on-screen energy is just very, I don't know, it's really palpable. Yeah.

And yeah, and what was interesting is on neighbors and neighbors, too, it was, there was a thing where, because they're a married couple, they can't brutally fight with one another because it wouldn't be funny. Yeah. But I knew that with, and we knew, franchise guys, I knew that with, if it's a friendship, you can yell at each other. It's funny, you know? And so I was like, oh, this is going to be a whole other, like, area of comedy that we weren't able to explore in those two movies. Right. You know, so, yeah, you set the tone for that early with Seth being like. she was offended about a fight or something.

And I remember him saying something like, we're friends, we scream, we fight, we're, I'm over it. And I was like, because I don't live that way. Like if I get to a point of screaming at somebody, it's like, I'll be shook for weeks, you know? I'm that way too. Yeah, but to be able to just do it and be like, yeah, that was good.

I'm all right. I still love you. I think if someone, if someone, like, criticizes or yells, I feel like, oh, I guess it's over. I guess it's all over. Yeah. Yeah, I feel, I'm that way, too.

I'm not, I mean, I'm not that I'm not confident. You know, you have to be confrontational is not the right word. You have to, you have to be able to express your opinion clearly in the creative field, but I'm not, I'm not a yeller. I don't think that that's beneficial to get what you need. Yeah. Just terrorizing people. Yeah, just screaming, yeah. And I always think, too, that, like, the biggest comedy stars, I have a theory that they are funny when they yell.

Yeah. It's like not, like, when Sean Penn yells, it's just, like, scary. Yeah, but when Will, Farrell yells, it's the funniest thing in the world. Yeah, it's the funny. And, like, for whatever reason, I don't know why. And so when Seth yells, too, it's, like, really funny. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, Seth has a, Seth is, like, an instrument.

His yelling is, like, he's, he's different levels of, of all of that out. Oh, totally. Yeah. So, was he doing studio at the same time? He did this, so we did the first season of Platonic. And then they did, I think he said, I think he said, set up the studio after that. And then he had, then he shot the first season of the studio while we were in the writer's room

for the second season on Platonic. Got it. Yeah. Got it. And then, yeah. Very cool. So when we were shooting Platonic, he would come and show us different scenes and stuff from the studio.

It looked really. Right, right. They're both Apple, right? They're both Apple, right? They're both Apple, yeah. They're both on Apple. Yeah. Oh, man.

Yeah. I think he got offended because I said, uh, I recommended an ash tray that he should add to his line. It's pretty hard to offend him. Yeah. I felt like we, I mean, it seemed like it went well, right guys? Yeah, we had that beautiful tiger moment. Yeah, we had a good moment and, I don't know, I just thought we'd be friends. You could still be friends? No, we'll work on it. Yeah, he was busy. He was running around doing a lot of press at the time. It was really studio launching time. Yeah. So I'm sure I'm...

I would re-approach him after the Emmys. Yeah. Because he's really busy right now. Don't do it this week? I wouldn't do it this week. I would wait until Monday. And then I would text, email him, hey, what did you think of my bread?

Are you going to the Emmys? No. That's good. No. Do you hate going to those things, or do you like going to those things? I don't, I don't get invited to those things.

I don't know how to say it. It's not part of, it's not really a choice. I've been to the, I went to the Oscars because Muppets was up for best song and one best song. Wow. So I went as Jason's date for the Oscars. And did you guys write that together? We wrote Muppets. You wrote Muppets.

So good. Oh, thank you. That was so good. Yeah. So that was, so I went to that and then, but yeah, it's just not, you know, comedy's not important. I know, it really isn't. Yeah.

Yeah. It seems like there's some comedy. he's starting to pop up now and like things are loosening up a little bit. Well, the studio is funny, is really funny. I'm so excited. It's gotten so much Emmy, you know, love. Yeah, yeah. It's not going to what it does. It wins some stuff. But it's, uh, just because it is legit, it goes hard for jokes, you know. Yeah, yeah. Ike's so good in that too. He's so funny. He's so good. He's hilarious. He was the neighbors too. He's like the funniest human. Neighbors was one of the first, uh, first like kind of adult comedies,

late teen into adult comedies that I had a blast watching with my daughters. Oh, nice. Yeah. It was like that it hit us all. Yeah, yeah. And whatever moment we were when that was, it was really, it was so good. We just all be laughing at stuff that was reverent, but, you know, not completely over the top, you know. Yeah.

Really fun. Yeah. Writing that line, wherever it is. Yeah. I don't know where the line is, but wherever that line is is where I somehow live. How many projects can you have going at the same time for your brain space? I do. I mean, I, I tend to, like, I tend to have, like, a few things happening at once.

Or, like, for example, like, I was writing the movie that I just finished. I kind of wrote and rewrote over the, a little bit at the same time as we were in the platonic writer's room and starting to, and in prep and directing that. So I am doing, but I, but I, but I, but I, don't tend to, I don't have development, really. I tend to just be like, this is the next movie I'm going to do. So that's like, so I put all of my kind of eggs in one basket and then focus on that one thing versus having a few things I'm trying to figure out. Right. But what do you mean? So, so, because it's film and not. Oh, just like, I think a lot of movie directors will have a few

scripts that they're developing at the same time for the next slot or something like that. And I tend to just be like, I'm doing this. Right. If that makes sense. I'm going to do focus on this one thing. And hopefully that's the thing that happens. Right. You know, and I tend to always write or rewrite what I'm doing. Right. So, yeah.

Do you enjoy rewriting? Yeah, totally. I mean, it's part of the process. It's, to me, my, I just, I tend to write and, I tend to rewrite a million times. Like, I tend to, like, there's different ways of approaching it, I guess, you know, as you, you know. And, like, um, uh, I think some writers are very, very carefully over like six months, write a perfect draft. Yeah. I over six months write a hundred shitty drafts and they solely get to the place where it's good.

I think it's just the way I do it. I don't know. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm rewriting, it's amazing to me that every time you look at it, you can change something. It's every single time there's like something wrong. You're like, oh, finally. And you're like, then you look at it again. You're like, nope, I can still fix it and change it.

And I always wonder if I was. was more talented, would I get to that good enough draft or earlier? And I, the older again, I don't think that happens. No, I don't think anybody does that. No, you're just rewriting and, yeah, it's just, I think it's just the being diligent is talent. Right. Yeah. Just being like, I'm going to keep, keep at it and keep rewriting it and keep rewriting it.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that is like, that is equivalent to, that's what talent is, I think. on some level. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I tend to rewrite, I don't know, it's like a croissant, you know, it's many layers. I don't know, that work. I don't think that metaphor worked. It kind of worked. It kind of worked. It doesn't totally work, but it kind of worked. I was thinking of the same thing, like, how can I bring this back to bread? And you did it, so I don't care if it's just, if it's not completely nailing it, it did the job. Okay, it did the job. It got the job. It got close.

Yeah. I can't wait to learn from Sally. Yeah. Oh, how to do croissons. I mean, I'll be off mic, because it'll be so boring. Right. But I literally, I've made puissance so many times I can tell you the recipe and everything. Right.

Yeah. It's very, yeah. You have it in your head. Yeah. It's very fun. Yeah. I can't wait. Yeah.

And it's a good party trick because they're like, you can make them for breakfast. Do you ever try magic when you were young? Oh, of course. I'm a comedy nerd. Yeah. I had a, I did magic badly. I was not just. I was so nerdy, I was even bad at magic.

And I had a magic, I had a company that my friend Naomi and I would, she would juggle and tell jokes and I would do magic. And we were called N squared. And we had shirts that said N squared. And we would, we would perform at kids' birthday parties. Yeah. But the catch was, or what our, what we, what our promotion was is that we would clean up the birthday party. So that was how, and we knew. We were like, we're not that good at this.

We know how we'll get these moms and dads to hire us. We'll clean up your birthday party if you allow us to do some magic. And at one point I was doing something. And I didn't rehearse or prepare anything. I would, and I had one of those, did you do magic? No, but I mean, yeah. Yeah. Probably lost your Virginia earlier.

But there was like the bag that like would, whatever. Yeah, they had the lining. Yeah, they had the lining. And I did a trick for literally a bunch of four-year-olds. And they all started going like, it's still in the bag. Like they all knew. And I was like, whatever, I'm going to clean up this party. For like $20, too.

It was so cheap, even for 1980, whatever. I did find my plastic magic hat at my parents' beach house, like at the Jersey Shore. And I was just going through the room closet. And I found this plastic magic hat that was like, you know. That had tricks in it? Yeah, like you could hold the thing. Like, it's so terrible, you know, the wand and everything. I was like, oh, yeah, I should break that out again.

Yeah. I went to the Magic Castle for the first time. I'd never been there. It's pretty cool. Yeah, I've been there, yeah. Yeah. And there's an MC that came out. He was kind of chubby, and he had a drawl and a hat.

Yeah. You know, he spends like 20 minutes on one trick, you know, just kind of patting it out and doing the whole thing. And my daughter turned to me, said, I think I see what you're going to do when you're retire. Yeah, I went there. I had a friend who's a, I have a friend who's a member of it. Yeah. But it's like a little bit too much magic a night at the magic castle.

It's like, the first show, you're like, why don't I spend all my time here? And the second show, you're like, okay, this is getting, and then the third show, I'm like, get, I don't want to see more magic. I want to go home. I remember there's this one magician who was, I think, Spanish. And technically what he did was incredible. Yeah. But it was so boring. And what he did,

he was, again, I don't speak, he was a Spaniard Spanish. He didn't speak English, I well, I don't speak Spanish. So no, whatever, it's not, you know. But he was like, I'm going to do these cards. And we'd all kind of be sitting there and he's, and the trick was he would tell someone to cut the deck, then he would, you'd hand him part of the deck, and he would hold the deck and correctly guess how many cards he was holding.

Like he could tell by the weight. Wow. Which was technically amazing, but so boring. Right. It would be like if I was like, look, I can float an inch off the ground and you have to wait 20 minutes to see me do this. Right. And you'd be like, yeah, that's awesome. But who cares?

It's so funny. I had the same experience. I was like, we should be here every night. Maybe I, what does it cost to be a member? Right. I don't know. And then I saw the price. I was like, nah, we'll just come once in a while.

After the first show, I'm like, what's the cost? second show. I'm like, I'm not sure. Third show. I have to leave so badly. We do a thing on this program called An Uncomfortable Moment. Oh, yes. And where we take a deep dive and discover things about you and whatever. And we forgive us if it is uncomfortable, but it's just something that we do. Yeah, I love it. We looked for some stuff on you, but you work so much. It seems like, Working and baking is really all that you do. It's, yeah.

And kid stuff. So this is going to be an audio uncomfortable moment. Okay. I don't have a picture of you or anything. So I'm going to, the uncomfortable moment is this. I want you to put me in one of your movies. Oh, okay.

Is that, and then I just, sure. Okay. Is that, yeah. That's how you got out of it? That's how I get out of it. I mean, people lie all the time in this business. You can say whatever you want right now. Damn it.

You're in. I didn't see a yes as an option. Done. Name the part. Sorry, Tom. It didn't work out. If it was me, if I was making the decision, I would have put you in it. Yeah.

I'm so sorry. I tried. I tried, but you know, you know how it is. Just like vague. Yeah. Yeah. You get it. Yeah.

Oh, they loved you. When you hear that, you're in trouble. Yeah, they loved you. Everyone loved you. Oh, shit. Just don't say that. Yeah, stop it. That's really funny.

When you said, when you said, I think like this is going to be the next thing that I make, there's been a couple people in my life that have been that way. And I always find it very impressive of just not I'm going to ask for permission. or not, I hope this works. I'm just going to, no, I'm going to do this robot movie and they do it. Were you always that way? And do you think that it's just, does it take the maybe out of it? Yeah, I'm pretty decisive.

And I kind of think of writing, this is a weird way, as like self-therapy in a way. So I kind of think that if I want to do something, it's because I'm, even if I don't know what I'm interested in emotionally in the project, that over the course of writing it, I will unearth whatever has drawn me to that thing, you know? Yeah. At the beginning of my career, I was always writing about a few years earlier in my life in some way. Right. So like for Gangster Marshall, at that point, I was married.

Right. And we actually, by the time we were shooting, we were expecting our first child, but I had had breakups a few years before, you know? So like, and same with like, get them to the Greek. It's about like a couple deciding to get married. and like neighbors it's about a couple who are fire engagement a couple who get me right neighbors it's the first baby and neighbors a lot of that was thinking about when we had our first baby and all I had for Hollywood I had my children young I was like 31 when we had our first baby

and so everyone I knew was still like out partying and whatever and I was like so freaked out by that and so anyways the point be but I have run out of autobiographical things to say right totally and so now it's finding kind of my finding a point. personal way into something that maybe is a high concept idea that, you know. Right, right. Do you find when you go after the high concept now that you mind all the autobiographical stuff, do you ultimately get to a place where you're like, oh, this must have been what was on my mind, or is it kind of separate from that now?

Yeah, no, I ultimately tend to get to an autobiographical place. Like this movie I did with Will Ferrell, News Brother Spoon, called Your Quarterly Invited, became, you know, a lot of my thoughts on, you know, familial relationships and my relationship with my own daughters and, you know, the relationship that Reese has with her mom, there's some, I don't think my mom will listen to this, but there's some connections that, you know, there's like, there's, the relationship Will has with his daughter. So it became, what started as a high concept, which I knew would be a commercial idea of a double book destination wedding. I was like, oh, I have a way in that I think is personal to me. The movie I just did is,

not quite as, there's a little bit of personal stuff, but it's really the whole movie's just about why you shouldn't lie. Right. And that's more of like, I don't, it's not a polemic by any means, but it's more about, you know, a little bit of what's happening right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but, but, uh, but I think, but for the, for my first movies up through neighbors,

I was really, really writing about a few years before in my life, but, yeah, but I've, I've kind of said all this stuff. I always said I couldn't really write a movie that was directly autobiographical, my life's kind of boring. So, like, fortunately, it's more, It's like a fortunate thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I find that I've written these books, three books, their essays,

and they were all very much about family and stuff. And I've kind of gone through all of the stories, and I'm in the middle of the fourth one, which is still family-based. But I literally am like, I got to break out some way because I'm finding myself going back. I'm like, wait, I think I wrote about being stuck in an addict. once before.

Like, it's starting to, like, it's so, oh, there's only so much there. Yeah. You know, it's interesting you can find new things, but a lot, it's starting to feel a little bit like I've mined in the same spot for a little too long. Yeah, I think, yeah, when I talk to actors who are doing a lot of press, they have the same thing, which is like, I've told the stories. Right. Like, I don't know, I can't, I don't have other stories, you know?

Yeah. So, yeah, which is very funny. Yeah. You got to come up with some other stuff. Yeah, I have to come up there or just make up some stories. stories or use someone else's story. Right. As my own story.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's the same thing with writing movie stuff. It's like, it, you, or TV shows, whatever. It's like there's the personal stuff and you kind of burn through a lot of that. And then, and then the core will ultimately be, it has to feel real or it has to be, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I know. That is, when, uh, in Platonic, it's like, oh, yeah, you could see where, uh, it's so real of like that, the family dynamic just in itself. Yeah. That it's like, no, these, this is obviously coming from a real place. Yeah, Francesca and I definitely, the, I mean, because I look a lot like Luke McFarlane. Right, exactly. That's actually one place where, but there's definitely stuff in the family.

Because the music shows also a love letter to marriage and family and stuff. Yeah. And the, but the friendship between Rose and Seth, there are strong elements of, you know, male-female friendships I've had, certainly male-free, it's really based on Francesco's friendship. But it's also completely fictionalized. It's not, you know, there also aren't really those connections. Right.

There's a core emotional idea. Yeah, yeah. But it's not, it's pretty different, too. And that, it just changes as the actors get involved. Yeah. And there's anything just naturally evolves. Do you feel like it's a, um, a blessing to be doing what you're doing? Like, you, oh, hugely.

You can get, not only in just how lucky you are to be able to do it, but there's really no end in sight. Like, some of the best comedy directors and writers, like, crank out stuff when they're older. It's not like, right, you know, I mean, it's not like you have, like, a hit song. Like, musicians always kind of flame out. Yeah. But, you know, the capers of the world. And, like, it's, you can keep creating as long as you're discovering new things about your, about human. humanity. Yeah, I think that's my hope because I love doing it and I'm going to do it for as long as

the powers that be let me. Yeah. And I think it, I think it is about being open to everything, you know, and not shutting down. Like, I'm very open to criticism. I don't like it just because I'm lazy and I don't want to rewrite the thing, but like, I'm open to it. You know, I'm open to and I try to see everything and I try to, you know. Yeah. So I think that's a big part of it is being open to what's happening in the world as much as you can be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's always a balance of that I always find for myself of shutting it all out. Yeah. And just being me and whatever I'm trying to make. And then other times, because the outside influence, you just don't, you need to kind of just cave off for a while. But then other times of like kind of filling up the well and just digesting as much as you possibly can.

Yeah, well, you have to have a very strong point of view on whatever you're writing. Yeah. And then when people, when I always find when people read something or you do a table read and something's not working, that the like, what they're expressing that's wrong with it, or what they're pointing out that there's something wrong with it is usually right and the solutions are usually wrong. Right. It's usually.

So when someone's like, the third act is kind of boring, that's probably right. But when they're like, and I think the third act should be this, that's probably wrong. You know, is like, so I think it's hearing the like criticism. Yeah. And really being open to it. And I've just watched people shut that off and to their detriment, you know. Right. They're just going to power through.

Yeah, they just don't. They're like, no, it's this. And sometimes you have to, you know, there's obviously big swings that are incredible and genius level and whatever. Yeah. But I think that, but I think being open to criticism, not rounding the edges of your stuff, but just if you, if your goal is to express this about family and you're not, then you have to adjust something in your thing or this about relationships or this, whatever the thing is.

It is remarkable without anybody knowing, any degree of an audience of really being, knowing how things are made, or just watching or having no knowledge at all. Everybody feels when the beat is off. Yeah, totally. Isn't it? It's pretty remarkable. It is, yeah. Yeah. It's like, no, something's wrong with the rhythm here.

Yeah. It's really, and it's always interesting. I've become, as a writer, I don't know if you feel this way, very obsessed with point of view. I'm always obsessed with point of view in the movies that I write. Less so TV because TV is more long form, but the point of view, and it happened on Neighbors, and it just happened actually on this movie that I'm cutting right now, where on neighbors, we started the point, kind of a dual point of view on Zach, Zach Efron's character, and then we started with Zach Efron's character and met him,

and then we went to Seth and Rose's character and whatever, and our first test, or the first time we put it up, it was just something was just off about the whole thing. And then a friend of mine recommended, this great director, was like, oh, cut the whole Zach opening and start with Seth and Rose and have them, have them meet Zach, have them see Zach and have Zach be this mysterious figure. Right. And it completely made the movie a thousand times better. Right.

And it was like, it's all point of view. Yeah. This more thing just happened on this. Oh, interesting. And when he said that, my editor on that movie, Zine Baker's great editor, he was like, he was like, yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing. And I was like, why didn't you say anything? And is that because the point of view then provides the motor for, Yeah, the point of view of a movie, you start to realize that that the story, that you kind of want to be in Seth and Rose's point of view and experience this fraternity, that the fraternity is the weird thing that's entering their universe.

They're kind of normal. Right, right, right. And that the point, I mean, that movie in screen time is very much split between them and Zach's story. Sure. But it's probably, they're probably the A story, you know, if I just put it that way. Yeah. That's just an example of it. But I've become very interested in that

just because I think point of view is so, I don't know. People don't talk about it a lot in writing, and I think it's like a huge part of writing and directing. It's a huge part of it. And it just happened again on this movie. I just did. And I think we fixed it. We haven't tested it yet, but I think we fixed it.

Because we had the wrong point of view, basically. Yeah. Yeah, you don't hear people talk a lot about it. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. People talk about a lot of other stuff. Right, yeah. Do you have any perfect comedy movies that have been made?

Just the ones I've made, you know what I would say? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was obvious. I mean, like any classics that you always go back to. Annie Hall over and over again. I watched when Harry Mitt Sally. When Harry Met Sally, I watched like once a year, Rushmore election.

I mean, those movies like sideways. I'm obsessed with Alexander Payne. I just rewatched the descendants. which is a bit more dramatic than comedic, but his movies are just perfect. Yeah, I think those are all, and I really watch those over and over again. Oh, a broadcast news.

Oh, God. When he's sweating? Yeah. The kids are all right. That movie's amazing. I watched Marty last night. It was on Turner Classic. Ernest Borgonan.

You ever see that? Oh, you'd love it. Okay, I'm going to see that. It's so... I'm going to write that down. It's so... I'm running it on my phone. It's so...

heartbreaking in the most beautiful way. You don't end up... I'm not going to ruin anything. It's just the emotion and this real... It's just such this small little film. They were actually set on Turner that they were going to just... When they were releasing, United Artists released it.

They were just going to put it as like the second of a double feature at the time, you know, the kind of thing. And they really didn't believe in it. They ended up winning all these Oscars. Oh, wow. Yeah. Ernest Borg and I won for Best Actor

and I think Best Rout. writer screenplay. But it's beautiful. It was one of those, like, I just traveled and came home, and my wife was out, and I just turned on Turner Classic, as I always do. Like a baller. Yeah. I mean, there was cocaine and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine's that, you know, whatever. I'm just telling you, the movie part. Yeah, yeah. You're into, I guess. Exactly. I heated up a giant mug of Chai Chi. Turner Classic.

No, I'm going to see that. I love, oh, the apartment, Billy Wilder, the apartment of watch. Yeah. So good. It's really funny, though, when Harry Mitz-Sally, I watch every year. It's just like every year, and every year I cry. Yeah, every year. Yeah.

Amazing. So what is it about us that, because we are such a small club. Yeah. Of brilliant comedy minds. You have to get Favreau and the three of us, because if he's baking bread still. Yeah. We should reach out. Yeah.

Let's, I get it if you need to do it first one-on-one with him, but at some point. No, I think I'm going to use social media to get them. It's a very small club. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, yeah, the Japan trip. He's coming on the Japan trip. Yeah. You know, should I just book tickets?

Let's make it really awkward. Should I book the tickets now? You know what we got to get on? You just send me your travel info. I'm just going to book it. I'm just going to book it now. This is how you get clips for social media of your podcast. You know who we should invite to the bakery conference in, uh, in Japan.

Who? John Favra. Oh, that's a great idea. Oh, my gosh. Do you know him? Yeah, from years ago, yeah. Yeah, me kind of. You go way back.

You do? Oh, man, we got to get Fabro. How are we going to get Fabro? We go way back to a good euphemism for having seen him in 20 years. Right, exactly. He might remember me. He'd remember me, yeah. But what is it about us that makes us noodle and rewrite and work on comedy and bread?

And bread. I realized bread is the opposite of writing. Because you don't, well, it's not the opposite. It's just very like, there's no neuroses in bread. Right. There's no like, the worst thing that happens is it doesn't turn out, who cares? Right. But with bread, but there is one thing that is similar, which I just realized.

I question, I was wondering why I love baking and cooking. I just don't have as much time to do it. And it's because it forces you to be in the moment, which is, I think, inherently relaxing in a way that, like, are, you know, you're just never, I'm never in the moment. I'm always thinking about the next thing I'm doing or the future or like dinner plans, whatever. I'm always thinking about the future. And bread, and I think also writing, you're really in the moment. I think those are the two connections.

Yeah. It's very good. I don't know. Well said. Well said. I'm actually doing a bread products. I'm doing a calendar with like my wisdom on it. It's all different sayings that I have.

I watch the Billy Joel documentary. Oh, it's so good. So good. And that moment when he talks about writing about it, I think at the end, towards the end, when he talks about it being... I wish that thing had gone on forever. I could have watched it forever. I know.

When he talked about... When he's writing, you have to be alone. You have to be kind of isolated and be alone. And I was like, man, that's... It's true. I've been so distracted from writing recently in this version of this book. Because I've been with my family so much. We've been traveling.

We've been together. And you can't just be like, I got to go in the other room. I mean, you can. I think Sedaris does that. Oh, yeah. But you have to be kind of on your own to go right. Yeah, you have to. There was a book, a friend of mine pointed out that, I mean, that really, that was just like, that's book, deep work.

Mm-hmm. Or deep, deep thought, deep work. No, deep work, which is just like you can't, you, if you're going to really get into something, you need four hours of unbroken concentration. Four hours. Like, at least four hours. Yeah. Like, no internet, no emails, no text, nothing. Turn it all off.

And I found it's really true. It's like you start to get into this like zone and suddenly the work gets really... Yeah. I get very... Prolific, not the right word. I get... What's the word? You know, I get a lot of work done.

Yeah. I'm a writer, by the way. I'm working on words. Working on words, yeah. But I think that that's... Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah.

Well, this is amazing. I can't believe that you can be at this stage of your life and... become best friends with somebody. It's happened. I know. This is, I thought I had the crew. Yeah.

Like, yeah, but this is, yeah. Yeah, I know a couple of people that I'm going to kick out of the circle. Yeah,

exactly. Just to make room for, I have three daughters in my youngest one. Just got replaced by you. Oh, poor thing. I know. No,

it's fine. It's fine. Are they still at home? Yes. My oldest, though, is a senior. Oh,

you're just about to go. Yeah, She's about to, yeah, which we are, well, we have a very big age spread, so it's 12th, 12th grade, seventh grade, and third grade. Oh, okay. So it's going to be around for a while. Yeah. Both of mine are out now.

And, yeah, you're going to cry a lot. I'm pretty worried about it. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to be baking a lot. There's going to be tears in your bobka. Yeah. I'm just, yeah, the baking is also for them.

so I think when they leave, like I don't know who I'll be baking. Why do you think I started this podcast? I should probably start a, I start a rival baking comedy podcast. Like Shalube. Tony Shalube has this, this is called Breaking Bread with Tom Papa.

And he has a show coming out on CNN called Tony Shaloo Breaking Bread. No, you can't do that. Yeah. You're allowed to do that. And he has a, all my pictures. pictures of my logos and stuff is me like this, like from here up. Yeah.

And he has a picture of him with a baguette with his eyes peering off it. Is he just interviewing people while eating bread? He's traveling around, goes into like an Italy and talks to them about their bread. Oh. It's not a podcast. Yeah. I guess it's more bread focused. Whatever it is, we're coming for him.

Yeah, we're coming for him. If we see him at that Japanese festival. There's no way he'll be there. No, he's a poser. He's not even interested in bread. He's a, I'm going to say it, he's a fucking poser. Poser. He's a fucking, he's a bread poser.

He probably got interested in this in 2020 during the pandemic. Did you hear that, Shaloo? The worst insult. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you know, you know. All right, thanks a lot. Thank you so much.

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