Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 291 - Judd Apatow

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Today Judd Apatow joins us at the table! He and Tom talk about his new book, his long history with comedy, and those pesky network execs. Enjoy! -- Check out https://www.squarespace.com/PAPA to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code PAPA. -- Get 50% off 1 month of Trade at drinktrade.com/PAPA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Publié, savouring, admire, and profite. Vi-a-R-Ai, La Voa Kone Em. Sometimes my job is to not ruin things,

because sometimes things are so funny. Yeah. But I don't get it. Mm-hmm. Right? So, like, I remember reading Stepbrothers, and it really,

the first job was like 160 pages. Whoa. It was so funny. Yeah. But there would be a whole sequence. I would think, I mean, that's really funny. It makes me laugh sitting here. But would that work if you shot it?

Right. Like, can you really have it be that Will sings opera at the end? At the Catalina wine mixer? Well, people know what this wine mixer thing means? And in my head, I'm like, Judges, be quiet. Don't be the guy who doesn't get it. Yeah, yeah. Don't be square.

Then they cut it together. It's like, perfect. They're like, oh, good, good, you shut your mouth. It's breaking bread. Thanks for being here. I'm happy to be here. I know. This is really exciting.

I bake this bread for you and I favorite. I think I nailed it. Leslie is going to be so happy. It's her favorite type of bread. Oh, good. Sourdough. It's good. Like, we will eat this.

I know some people take it home and they don't eat it. Yeah. But we eat it. We know who they are. We eat it. Good. And send me pictures and let me know. And I was up at 6.30 making sure that this was done before I came to the studio.

Oh. And what kind of utensils did he use to make it? Oh, that's funny. You should ask that. My new Nambay line of bread tools, this cutting board and this knife and these beautiful whisks and flour containers. Thanks for asking. Yeah.

I'm excited for you to send me all this stuff for free. I will send it to you. If you use it, I'll send it. I'll use it. I'll post about it. All right. I'm going to promote. Write it down.

Judd. Because then maybe I can hook up with this company and create my own. line of ice cream spoons. Oh. Now you sound like Tony Shaloo. That's son of a bitch. I can't believe he stole your name. I know.

But every time anyone sees it, they're like, he stole it from Tom. I know. What a jerk. Someone told him like, there's this amazing podcast. You probably shouldn't do it. And he's like, fuck him. I take what I want. I'm Shalub.

I can't believe if there's an evil side of Shalub that we didn't know. anything about. You're just this lovable guy. That's what made the show great, is you sense the evil. Right, exactly. Just under the surface. Yeah, he's got another date for a show. WTF, that's his next show.

I posted a thing of Mia's monk. It had a coat and the whole thing. You know what? You just have to be part of the Shalube universe now. Yeah. Like just somehow it's going to help you. That's what I was. There'll be searches for breaking Brad and then it'll go to you.

That's what I was hoping that I could just kind of like drift in his in his promo, but I think ours has actually been better. I think we're more places than Shalub's been. You know what? Because of my bread line of products of bread tools. How long did that show last? I know. You know, he's going to get disinterested.

He'll get offered some play. Yeah. So he'll stop caring about the food on it and the bread. He won't be as consistently obsessed with bread as you are. No, right, exactly. Because he'll actually be cast in things. your book is amazing oh did you so i send it to you and that's comedy nerd comedy nerd in all life long obsession in stories and pictures comedy nerd look a little judd little juddy face

is an autobiography and a scrapbook form it's so good oh thank you it really is um i only got it two days ago and i just sat in my living room if you love comedy and this is this is this is not a plug. This is just real. If you grow up on comedy and love comedy, your career has just woven through all of it in our lifetime. Like, it's, there hasn't been anything big in comedy that you weren't somehow brushing up against directing being a big part, a small part. It's really, it's, you could just kind of go through this for hours. It's a, it's a mental break in, in paperback form. That's what I thought. When I finish it, I'm like, what is wrong with you?

Well, just take a nap or something. Well, how unusual that you have something that you love when you're like eight and it never goes away. Yeah. That is very rare. I know. It is a strange thing. And weird to get obsessed with it. I mean, back then, you know, I was born in 67.

So, you know, I was eight when Saturday Night Live came on. So everything timed out perfectly for the formation of my brain. Right. that when Richard Pryor and George Carlin and Steve Martin and Monty Python and all these people were at their height. Yeah. I see TV. It was right when I was getting interested in it. So it was all the best stuff.

And then it turned into Letterman and on and on and on. And but I don't know. I was always way, way too into it. But I also love that no one else was into it. Your buddies weren't? No one was. Because they were all into sports and and, you know, they tolerated it. I had a friend of mine, Ron Garner, like years ago.

just said to me, I think I just got what you were doing in high school. I think I get it now. So no one wanted to talk about it the way I wanted to talk about it. Right. And I think that's different now. I think comedy is in the culture in a big way. Yeah. But back then it really felt like there were only like 150 people in the country working

in the field of comedy. Yeah. So it was like a goal you could achieve. Like there's not that many people doing it. I think I could be like one of those people. Well, how I always say because I was born in the, the same time. And I always say seventh grade was when I learned that it was a job. Like when I heard George Carlin and Steve Martin's albums in like one summer week, that's when it clicked like, oh, no,

this is grownups doing this for a living. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was running around just being funny with my friends or whatever. And I was like, oh, man, this could be like a career. Yeah. I was so excited. Well, also, evening the improv was just starting. Yeah. Norm Crosby's comedy shop and making me laugh. So you're getting a little taste like there's a place in New York City where people go, this catcherizing star, the improv. And then in L.A., the improv and the comedy store, and you would get a little, like,

an image in a picture or a weird thing on TV. You didn't have a ton of access to it. Yeah. And it was like, where is this place? And then when I was a kid, suddenly this restaurant in the middle of Huntington, suddenly turned into Eastside Comedy Club. Right. Right, right.

It was just a restaurant in the center of a huge parking lot. And then it said comedy club. And I was like, what happens in a comedy club? Right. It's a comedy store? What do they sell? What do they do in there? And I got a job as a busboy and a dishwasher.

How old? I was 15. 15. And I would take a cab home every night. I spent all the money I made working there, went to the cab. home. Right, of course. But I didn't care.

I just wanted to be in there to see, you know, a lot of comedians in the 80s doing Coke. Go back even earlier. Wacky packs in Mad Magazine. Yeah, yeah, of course. Were you into those? Yeah. Right? Because that was, I mean, it's so cool to see in the book.

I think it's at least two times that Bad Magazine did a thing on you as a kid that was just obsessed with Mad Magazine. Because you saw that there was something, some grown-up somewhere. we're looking at the adult world and taking it apart and shitting on it and having a laugh at it. And as a kid, you're like, oh, not all these grownups are assholes. These assholes make fun of these assholes. I know. It's funny because Man Magazine was such a big part of my life as a little kid. I never think about it that much, but I was always reading it.

Always. I love Don Martin. Oh, my God. The Don Martin cartoons. Just the shoes and the faces. so funny. And Mort Drucker lived down the street from my friend Brand Eagan. And he was his neighbor. And we're like, the guy that draws like the big article in every mad magazine lives in that house. No way. It took us years to work up. The girl should just knock on the door. And then he let us in and showed us how he did it and gave us mad magazines before they came out. And we were like, why didn't we knock on his door sooner?

Oh, that's crazy. I was in Winnipeg doing a show a couple months ago. And, It was this crazy old bookshop, like where things are just like the shelves are caving in and just like just feel the place. Musty. And I said, Mad Magazines, you know, Mad Magazines? And he took me to two boxes of Mad Magazines. And every cover, I remembered every single cover.

You're just like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. It all just hit. Going up and knocking on the door like that, that I think is the thing that is unique to your story. because... I'm a door knocker. Yeah, you're not going to be stopped. Yeah.

Like you just... What was it in you as a little kid that made you able to ask for autographs, knocking people's doors, have... Ask for interviews. Like, you weren't just... You weren't going to be stopped.

I mean, I was a little bit like a... Long Island rat. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was like in a... Look at an obnoxious little kid. I walk up to you. Well, you're not so great. Right.

You're the Ramones. I had a little like East Side Kids, Bowery boys vibe to me. Because I remember we were on vacation once. We went to Hilton Head. Yeah. And there was a, like, a tennis tournament there. And I would walk up to all the tennis players. Like, it was all women tennis players.

So I'd walk up to Tracy Austin and Martina Navaritova and Dr. Renee Richards and Billy Jing can get their autographs. And it was really fun, like, to find them and hunt them down. because they were just kind of walking around the resort. I look now, like, you're all like 18-year-old girls. I'm like nine. Just chasing him down the way to the room. Tracy Austin's 15 years old.

And then once we saw the actor Robert Conrad from Baba Black Sheep, and he was the guy who had the commercial with a battery on his shoulder. And we saw him, and me and my brother started like following him on our bikes. And we followed him for miles, just stalking him. And then he was on the beach, and then, like, we were, like, walking up to him. And then suddenly he, like, turns around. What are you guys doing? And, like, we just wanted an autograph.

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So, hey, you want to go see Bert Convys, you know, doing tattletails? Or, you know, once we went to a taping of a, maybe it was a talk show starring Bert Convey. It was a pilot of a show that never went. And his guest was Richard Simmons in, like, 1977. You know, we would get those opportunities. And then we went to see the Hollywood squares. Wow. Because my grandfather recorded.

Peter Marshall as a singer at some point. And I remember somehow my grandmother walked Charo over to me. What did she do? Your grandmother? She was obnoxious. We're seeing why you're able to follow stars at nine years old. Somehow she got Charo to come over. And then Charo was like, you want to gooch, Gucci!

And did the Gucci with me. No way. But it was like making contact. Like, oh, you could get in this world. Like I went to see 1941, the Steven Spielberg movie. Oh, God, yeah. And like the Directors Guild,

maybe, you know, I don't know how we had tickets to it. And Phil Silvers was there. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. He just walked up to him and got his autograph. So, to me, those are like trophies. Access, yeah, access to this.

So wait, give me the family dynamic where you're in Long Island, which you had family out here. Yeah, I was on Long Island, and then my grandparents moved to Beverly Hills. My grandfather was like a jazz, producer also. He did the first Janice Joplin album.

But he did like Charlie Parker and Diana Washington and hardcore jazz blue stuff. And they were friends with Tody Fields. Right. Who was the legendary female comedian. Yeah. And you went to her show. And would go to her shows. And she murdered.

She was so funny. She was, you know, like a Joan Rivers style comedian, but sang. And I think as a kid, I was like, oh, that's the coolest person in the world to be that person. Yeah, yeah. To be different and everyone just loves you. Right. I think that was something like, wait, you can be weird and get a standing ovation. Yeah.

Not just get a beating. And she came out, you say in the story that she came out, she was missing a leg. Yeah, because she had diabetes. And so she had to have her leg amputated. And then she did this like comeback tour where she gets driven out on a golf cart and they would help her onto a stool. And then she would just rip the house down, do tons of jokes about. not having this leg. I remember there was like a bit about going into a gas station and needing help,

changing her tire, but then she has an extra leg in the trunk and how the gas station guy reacted to this. But she was brilliantly funny, but my family worshipped her. And so it also made me go, oh, why do they think she's the most special person in the world? Yeah, yeah. Why was it her do you think? I mean, she was just so nice and so funny. And so funny.

And did she know you? family? It seemed like... She was my best friends with my grandma. She was best friends with her. Yeah. Oh, I see, I see. We were here all the time. Oh, my God. And they're like, Tony bathed you when you were a baby. So when you came out here, was it just a visit or did you... I would visit and then I moved here to go to college, but I would for a bunch of times I would come visit and get a little taste of Universal Studios and things like that.

I love the Steve Martin story. Yeah, yeah. Another door knock. Another door knock. You just show up. It's so funny because if someone knocked on my door asking for an autograph, I would call the police. I would stun gun them. I would pepper spray them. Anything could happen. It was so funny.

Because you were funny. You were being funny already with him. I don't know if you're trying to be funny, but that line about, he says, I don't sign autographs in my house. And you said, well, can you come to the street? But that's like a Long Island rat. You want to do it in street? And he's so nice. He's like the nicest man of the world.

You know, back then people didn't have gates. That's when they learned to get gates. Big fences. There was too much access. You could just like knock on Jimmy Stewart's door. I know. It's so crazy. But then you went home and wrote a letter to him.

Yeah, I wrote him a letter like as a joke, but like a fake mad letter, you know. Yeah. Just because I wanted to continue the relationship. It's so crazy. You know, so I just wrote him a letter saying, you know, I'm sorry. No, I said, you wouldn't live in that house. I said you're the funniest man in the world, but you treat your fans like. garbage. You would live in that house. I did buy your records and go to all your movies. So you need

to send me an apology. Or I'm going to send you address to Homes of the Stars and you'll have tour buses passing by 24 hours a day. And then I put it in his mailbox no stamp. No just, oh really? Which is the ultimate stalker move. Yeah. Boat a return address. Well, there wasn't a return address. Right. And then six months later, he sent me a book of cruel shoes, this amazing short story collection he had written around that time. And he wrote in it to Judd, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to the Judd Apatow. And that was, honestly, that was 45 years ago. Wow. Isn't that crazy? It was 40, 1980. That's in 1980. And I always say, I feel like I made him laugh. Yeah. And that's the only reason why he sent me something funny. Right. Like my letter must have, like,

gave him a chuckle. And I thought, I think, unconsciously. Consciously, I just thought, oh, I made my hero laugh enough and he bothered to do that. That's amazing. And that it was very, very meaningful to me. Yeah. So you're in seventh, eighth grade when that happened. So you're not even doing your radio interviews yet. I know.

It's years before any of that. Right, right, right. So it's like, was it like a high? Like, is it drug? It was like these early autographs and these like. I know. To this day, I can't believe that happened. Right.

Like, I don't think I ever topped that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, once we were at something and someone asked him about it and they had me tell the story, which I had never told like in front of him. Yeah, yeah. And then at the end of it, they said, Steve, is that how you remember it? And he goes, in my memory, I knocked on his door.

So I was editing a vanity fair issue about comedy. And they allowed me to, you know, do all the articles and pick all the photos. And so we did a photo of him with like a TMZ, you know, tour bus knocking on my door. Yeah, and he's the guy doing the tour. Yeah. It's so funny. Man, so you have all this. So you just, did you just have this feeling? Most people grow up thinking show business is this unknowable, impenetrable thing. Yeah. But you very quickly seem to think, no, I'm, I have, I know the way in and I'm staying.

Yeah. Well, I felt like my grandparents were like kind of in it because they were in the music business. Yeah. And then my grandfather worked for the director, John Frankenheimer for a while doing some kind of development stuff. And he was a music supervisor on that movie, Lust in the Dust. And so he was floating around. And so I thought, oh, yeah, these are real people. I was always just trying to understand the rules of it.

Yeah. And how it works. So when I started interviewing comedians from a high school radio station, it really was just, an excuse to go, how do you get on an open mic? When do you sign up? How long do you do you do? How do you get funny? How do you write a joke? And I would just ask the comedians directly. Yeah. And they were nice and they would tell me. And so I look back and go, those 50 interviews I did 11th grade was bigger than my college education. Because, you know, to have Harold Ramas sit with you for 45 minutes and talk about comedy. Amazing. You know, most of them, you know, were very

giving of their wisdom. Yeah. It took me a long time to admit I wanted to get on stage. Because I was around the club and I was working at the club for a period, but I never had the courage to say, I want to be a stand-up to anyone. Right. They all assumed, but I wouldn't even say it to them, like, I want to be a comedian. Yeah.

I never said that to anybody. Right. And then I guess at some point I figured out how the open mic worked at chuckles. and I went in and just, all right, we're going to do this. It was truly awful. Almost started to riot the amount of heckles I got. I have a tape of it. My friends are literally like almost getting in fights with people in the crowd

to shut them up from yelling at me. Why did it go out of control so quickly? Because I did this joke where I said, you know, I don't know how to handle hecklers. So if you could all heckle me for a minute, I could practice. Oh, no. And then the place just lost its mouth. It was very Long Island.

Let's go. And they wouldn't stop and go, fuck, yeah. And my joke was supposed to be that they would like curse for a while. Then it would quiet down. And I would go, yes, yeah, I don't know what to say. That was a joke. But they never stopped cursing. How old were you in your first open mic?

17. 17. Yeah. Wow. And then I did it that summer on Long Island at Governors and East Side Comedy Club. And then I had to go to college. at USC, so I moved out here. So was there enough of a bug when you did it,

even though they were yelling and screaming? You were like, okay, no, I get it. I'm going to stick around. And all the comedians told me that all communities start, and they're terrible. Yeah. I always remember Seinfeld said the first time he went on stage. He kind of blanked, blacked out,

and he couldn't remember his jokes, and he just started saying the names of the bullet points. Right. Like, your parents, the car, you know. So I thought it was supposed to go bad. Yeah. And so it helped me. I was like, oh, yeah, you're supposed to be bad for like a year or two.

Right, right. And I was like ready for it. Yeah. I hated bombing. Part of the process. Yeah, this is fun. I'm in it. I'm a comedian.

I'm bombing right now. Bobby Shad. That's my grandfather, yeah. That's your grandfather. That's him with Dinah Washington. I love these photos because it's that classic. There's something great about this era of early show business where they look like they're dressed for NASA. Yeah, everybody's got the tie on.

You know, the short. sleeve white shirt with the tie and just going to work. Yeah, it's like when you would see pictures of baseball games and everyone's in a suit and a hat. Yeah, yeah. Just having that around must have been a pretty cool thing just because that's the other side of it. You're talking all these comics, but now you have like the nuts and bolts of how your people are making things. Yeah, and producing and that, you know, he was looking for talented people and trying to help them execute their vision and their creativity. So, like, just the idea that my grandfather was a producer.

Like, what does that mean? What did he do? I think you said in here that it was, he was the one that kind of, like, showed you had to kind of, like, create your own career. Yeah, that you could just hustle and you don't have to follow the normal path to succeed. Like, that's him and Quincy Jones, and Quincy Jones was like 20 years old. God, so young. Look at Bobby with his shirt all the way.

Look, my grandfather's shirt is unbuttoned. Down to his belly button. Show people the picture. It's such a funny. picture. Literally down to his belly button. And Goliard Quincy, I mean, he's such a baby. Yeah.

But that is a huge thing. But look at this article next to it. So on the left there's this article where my grandfather's explaining all of the jazz people that he's signed to his label, MRC records. And at the bottom, on the right there, look at the article, the bottom there, the RCA one. So my grandfather, he had just tried to sign Elvis, but he couldn't get the feedback from his company in time if they would pay him what he wanted. And in that pause, you know, because they didn't know, do we pay him at a country fund or the Blues Fund? And so they were like trying to figure it out.

RCA signed him and gave him more money in a Cadillac. But read the article. So this is the article when Elvis was signed to his first major label deal. Oh, I don't know if we'll be able to read it. You read it. You're asking. Mine aren't good. Wouldn't it be funny?

You hand it to me like, me neither. Which is actually the truth. Elvis Presley, country and western singer, has just recently signed with RCA Victor. Isn't that funny?

But it's that tiny, the article. It's so tiny. No one knows what's coming. Yeah, it's like nobody even knows who this guy is yet. Yeah.

God, what year would this be? 50 years. 55. She's about to completely change the world. And it literally is this tiny little shit article at the bottom of the... That's less important than my grandfather's jazz interview. When you meet Chandling, can you tell me how you meet Chandling? I met Chandling at the Comedy Magic Club when I was emceeing.

I think my manager, Jimmy Miller, was like, you should let John write some jokes for you? Because he was about to do the Grammys. Right. Gary didn't really respond to any way, positively. And then months later, I got a call. Oh, he's looking for jokes for the Grammys. For the Grammys.

And are you out of USC at this point? Yeah. Yeah. And so I went home and, like, wrote him like 100 jokes. Yeah. Because I was just like... They were looking for like 20 and you showed up with like a hundred. I just spent all night just writing it.

And was he on your radar as, like, what he was at that time? Were you... And that was when he was doing it's Gary Shanling's show. Right. on Fox, which was so... And he was the best. I mean, as a comic, and I watched him on The Tonight Show,

his first appearances, and just one of the great joke writers of all time. Yeah. And so I don't think I wrote him great jokes, but I think I wrote him great setups. I think I knew the premises and then he could think of the joke.

Because then you got on the phone with him after, and he... He would just tell me... He spent all this time with you going over those jokes because he's going to go... They made him funny. Right. And that was probably a lot of our relationship

that I never really nailed the joke. but I can tell him the neighborhood the joke was in, like what the idea of the joke was or what the circumstance was. Right. And he would write it 100 times better. And then he would finish it off. Yeah. What was your relationship with him from the start?

Was it like a feeling of, was he warm? Like, I mean, you're scrapping around. Yeah. Writing him all these jokes and you're aware of what he is. That could easily be a contentious relationship, relationship where he could be kind of taking you as a big brother or a father. Yeah, it was very, I mean, he was just so nice to me. Yeah.

To the point where you almost can't believe it. Right. That he was just so welcoming and he allowed me to go to the show at Radio City Musical and be on stage during the show. Right. You know, helping, you know, write jokes during the show for him. I mean, no one had ever like flew me somewhere. And then we would go to these writing sessions. We did one with Dennis Miller.

Dennis Miller was really funny. Neal and you know, so you need the people that he looked to for help. Like Ed Solomon and Ellen Zweybel. And they were all helping him with his monologue. They all trying to help him with the monologue. And then afterwards, you know, we just became really good friends. And, you know, he was dating Linda Doucette at that time. And I would just go over there and hang out and watch TV and do gigs with him.

I opened up for his HBO special. Right. And then he hired me to be on the Larry Sanders show. He was just always there for me. Always would really come through. And then when we got canceled, he's like, come on Sanders. And then he asked me to direct Sanders. You know, so now I look back and I just think it's just like a gift from God.

Absolutely. This person who, you know, in a way it was almost like, yeah, it was Big Brother stuff or like almost like, like, trying to see what it would like to be a parent on some level. He never had kids. Yeah, he like, he never had kids. Yeah. But years later and after he died, I thought, on some level, it's almost like he was trying to treat me

the way he wished his parents treated him. Right. He did that level of kindness. And, you know, for a guy who was very insecure at times and emotional and needy, he was like pretty just giving. to me. Right, right. Yeah, because he lost his brother, right? And then the relationship with his parents got really out of whack. Yeah, his brother died of cystic fibrosis and then his parents never talked about it ever again. Right, right. And he never really had a way to process it.

Yeah, yeah. Such an interesting guy. It's just like a, like a, such a unique human being. Yeah. And there's no one like him, like in the years since he's passed. Yeah. You really miss it board more every year. Like, oh, what would Gary say about this? It's just like a type of voice and a very supportive voice to a lot of people and just so damn funny. I mean, I'd watch him rewrite Sanders scenes in like two minutes and every once in a while he would just go into a trance and just write the greatest scene you've ever heard.

Yeah. So when you cross past with him, you're doing stand up and you're kind of making your way as a comic and things. when he starts giving you these gigs, it seems like there's a fork in the road between stand-up and going and making comedy and TV and these other ways. Is that what happened?

Yeah, because I never thought about storytelling. I mean, when I was a kid, I just thought about jokes. Yeah. It was like Rodney Dangerfield jokes. Right. I never thought about personal storytelling. I just thought, how do you be funny? Right.

You know, like Ghostbusters is funny. Right. You know, how to be funny, like caddyshack. Yeah. And Gary was the first person who talked about ego and the reasons why we don't get along and all the, like, the personal things that we're carrying around that, like, impede the way we live and screw up all of our connections with people. Yeah.

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It's a great way to support the podcast, and it's a great way to look better. You droopy, droid bastards, the perfect gene. You're starting to write for other people. You're starting to write for voices and shows and things. does stand-ups start to just kind of take a backseat at that point? Are you trying to do both at that point? I was doing both for a while.

So I wrote for Tom and Roseanne for a long time and did specials with them and did some work with Jim Carrey and helped produce one of his specials. And then the Ben Stiller show, the sketch show, got picked up. Right. And it was just a 14-hour-a-day job. Yeah. And so in that period, I couldn't do stay. end up. Yeah, right. And then when the show ended, I got a job at the Larry Sanders show and the

critic, like half a week on each. And I just thought, well, I don't think the universe wants me perform. Right. Yeah. And was that a big shift for you? Or is it, or did it just happen naturally? I just thought, well, they like me here. I mean, this is, you know, there's more money here. Right. I'd have to be on the road all year to do this, you know, the thing that just took a few weeks. I wasn't making any money as a comedian. Like $75 or $100 here or there. And so I just thought, oh, I will just follow this path. And I think I also felt like, these people are better than me.

Right. You know, and I was such a fan. I'm like, yeah, I get that Jim Gary's better than me. And I'm never going to be as good as him as a thinker, as a performer. Yeah. That these are legendary people. And so part of me was like, what are you doing? which is kind of sad

but I do stand up now and I see it differently because I can talk about my life and my experiences and I have a lot to say but as a 24 year old kid I had nothing to say and I didn't have a unique way of saying it I wasn't reinventing it like Stephen Wright

and so I was just like a mediocre Long Island comic and I did all the TV shows and did like okay but I never was really that good I loved it more than I was good right But as a writer, I could do it. Yeah, but it's interesting. Like, if you hadn't found your way into television and all of this stuff, you know,

you would have just been obsessed in cracking that. Yes. It could have been, it could have gotten some other way, you know. Yeah, I could have. Like, there was a moment where I was about to take the groundlings. Right. And I looked at the schedule and basically I would have to stay in town for four months or something like that.

But I had just been offered to go on the road to all the improvs around the, country and I'd worked for years to get that approval. Right. And so I'm like, I guess I'm not going to do the Groundlings classes. Yeah. So that was a big fork like, okay, we're not going to perform in that way. Right, right. Yeah. It's an interesting thing because they are the people that you're crossing paths with when you are you are analyzing. It's tough to as a stand up just to analyze like can I do this? Do I have a, will I have a place in this? But then to cross pass with Shanley and Jim Carrey is just like, I mean,

Talk about Jim for a minute. I mean, when I first saw Jim, I just thought, oh, this is the funniest person who ever lived. Yeah. This first time I saw him in a club. And I hadn't seen him on TV, but I hadn't seen him in a club. And he had just dropped his impressions and was improvising almost his entire set every night. Right. Trying to figure out who he was.

Right, because he was doing all impressions up to that point. And it was one of the most exciting things I'd ever seen, this exploration of his own mind. Yeah. And I remember I called my manager. I'm like, you have to see this. Yeah. It's happening. And then everything like that I thought just came true that he, he just one by one did all the things.

Yeah. He kind of thought a person like that could do. Right. And we would go on the road. I remember we went on the road to like the Atlanta punchline and he was so wild. This is maybe during the first year of a living color, that they didn't even invite him back. Oh, really? At the same money.

Like it was a crazy act. Really? It was intense and all or nothing. Really? And it was brilliant. And then later, you know, we did the special. At that time, was he playing to just a portion of the room, like, and who cares? Just comedy clubs, I mean, it was.

No, but I mean, like, the audience reception to it, was it too much for some of the audience? But when he was doing, like, post-nuclear Elvis impressions. I mean, some nights they would go for them 100%. Yeah. And, you know, other nights, it was more improvisational and sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it would bomb for a while and then he would pull out of it and annihilate off of the bomb. Right. Yeah. I mean, all sorts of things happened. But it was so creative. His mind was on fire. And you can see that in the early movies, like the power of his mind. Yeah. In addition to the physicality, he was just firing. Yeah. You know, trying to figure out who he was. Right. God, just a force. I literally said to, oh, look how beautiful your wife is. How'd you meet your wife? We worked together on the cable guy.

That was the cable guy. Yeah. Which was a lot lighter script, you said, than it ended up being. Yeah, it was a little more like a what about Bob type of movie. And then, you know, Jim wanted to make it more like a dark movie. And still, it was really into this like unlawful entry hand that rocks the cradle vibe. Yeah. And so, and then Leslie came on.

And Leslie, you know, is the one who, you know, really pushed me to get better as a writer. And, you know, how do you write well for women? and how can you be more truthful. So when we worked on the movies about her and Rudd, you know, we would have these multi-year conversations about the scenes and so many of the scenes. You know, she pitched as counters to scenes that I wrote. Well, if you're going to talk about this,

then you should talk about this. Oh, interesting. Was she a writer as well? She isn't an official writer, but she was pitching jokes and improvising and scenes and concepts. Right. You know. You could see how to put it all together.

Yeah. All the time would be like, oh, maybe the end of the 40 old virgin drunk driving scene. Maybe I should vomit on him. You know, like a lot of those. Right. Like she would think of the big button or the set piece. Yeah. When you were working with her and stuff, were you intimidated to hit on her?

I'm intimidated by all people, but I definitely was. I mean, I was a bumbling mess always and maybe still. Maybe still am. I was in my mid to late 20s. Late 20s. Yeah. Right. So you're not.

But I also, the second I met her, I just thought, oh, this is, yes, I'm supposed to be with the rest of my life. Right. Then you're really trying hard not to say the wrong thing. Yeah, no kidding. The stakes are much higher. Did she agree right off of that? Of course not.

It took a lot. There's a lot of convincing to do. Waring her down. This is the point. Okay. so wait in the book yeah we get up to freaks and geeks and so we've been in shanling's world jim carrie world freaks and geeks is such a is such a huge moment it was like this was like one of those that is uh you had to feel like all right this is this this is like hitting people in a

different way like people are talking about this right yeah it had that kind of a vibe to it and it was speaking to a generation that really hadn't been spoken to in a comedic but a heartfelt way. And I only bring it up now because we're only at this part of the book. That's what I mean about the mental illness part. We're literally only here. And you're about to launch off, but you've done so much. Like that little obsession that you had, it led you to these amazing mile markers and comedy. And we're only at this, only like page 50.

And the kids in the show, you know, that Paul Feig created were obsessed with comedy. So they had Steve Martin posters in their rooms. And they would debate stripes and what was wrong with the ending of stripes. Yeah. It seems like at this point, like you've been chasing these, you have all of these autographs and stuff of all these generation way ahead of you. Now it seems like you're at this point, it starts to shift. Like it's no longer chasing.

the legends. Now it's like, no, there's a young crew of people that you're starting to work with that are going to become legendary in comedy. It's such a pretty, pretty cool demarcation in comedy and your career. Like, it shifts. It's like... Well, it gets personal for the first time. Yeah. So, you know, when we did heavyweights, which was like our version of a, you know, summer camp for overweight boys, a movie that I did with, you know, Steve, Seabreel directed, wrote with me. You know, that was the beginning, I think, of like, nerd culture or, you know, our version of underdogs.

Yeah. And with freaks and geeks, you know, Paul had all these amazing stories. He was so clear-eyed and passionate and specific about exactly what it was. Yeah. And, I mean, he just had countless stories of humiliation. And he wrote this massive Bible with every detail of the music and the clothes and the vibe. And then Jake Kazan came into direct. it and he was pretty remarkable

and helping with the development of all of it and directing a lot of it. And that became personal because all the writers started telling their stories about what happened to them. Right. And then it became this, you know, soup all of our, you know,

personal challenges during that time. Yeah, yeah. And the way your friends and your family helped you get through it. You know, so it was a dark show because in most of the shows, things went wrong and then stayed wrong. Right, right. They didn't get cleaned up at the end. The thing that was the clean up was like,

well, your parents still love you. Yeah. Your friends are still there for you. Right. But there was a lot of losses. Yeah. The studio was always asking for more wins. But we're like, no, this is not about that. This is about what it's really like, which is you take a beating and then you'd hang out with your friends and lick your wounds and they help you move on. Yeah. And Amy Pollars pops up early on in these different projects. I loved Amy Pollard. I first saw on Conan when she was doing the Andy Richter's sister.

I just thought it might have been the funny thing I'd ever seen. And so we did a pilot that didn't get picked up and she did a bunch of episodes of undeclared. Yeah. And then we did another pilot. I just was always like, this is the funniest person ever. Really? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Talk about that, the sense of because you've seen everything. You've seen all this stuff. and now you're starting to make stuff and starting to produce and do these kind of things. But finding those people that was there, did you just know? Like when people walk in the room, you just know,

oh, this is, this one's special? I think it's as simple as just thinking, man, if she had a TV show, I'd watch it. Right. Like when I was a kid, I loved Danny Kaufman. And then one day someone said, he's going to be in this TV show called Taxi. I'm like, oh my God,

That's the best thing I've ever heard. Right. And I think that's how I always looked at it and tried to keep it that simple. Right. Oh, man. Seth is so funny. You know, in Frinks and Geeks and Unneclaired. Oh, we should have him in this movie.

Oh, I think he could be the lead. Right. I think I'd want to watch the whole movie with him. Right. And that's kind of it. That's it. Like, it doesn't matter if they're famous or not famous. Yeah.

My interests in them as people. Right. You know, both comedically, dramatically, they're, you know, their essence. Yeah. oh, this is like the type of person I want to know more about in a story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's brilliant.

And Colin Quinn's not one of those people. Colin Quinn, I did a pilot? There you go. Colin Quinn was in the train wreck as Amy's dad. I love that. I didn't realize that he had backed away from Celtic Pride. That's right. He had a script called Celtic Pride about fans of the Boston Celtics who kidnap a player from the Utah Jazz.

so their team can win. Yeah. And it was a great script and like really edgy. Yeah. A lot of drugs and gambling. And I had to say to him like, they're not going to, the NBA will not allow you to do this version of this. Yeah. And he gave the blessing for us to ruin it.

Yeah. To do the worst version of it. But I mean, you know, I hate to say this because it'll get back to him. he's just so special. Colin is so prolific. I don't know anyone who writes more often and more deeply and more on the nose. Like he just gets human,

he gets humanity in a way that other people really don't. I met Colin when I was living with Adam Sandler after college and Adam was doing remote control, which was the game show. And Colin was the sidekick. announcer to Ken Ober. And, and Sandler would come out, and he was like the question. He'd come out in a character with the question for the game show, like he'd be stud boy or somebody.

And so I, you know, we spent a lot of time with Colin around then. Yeah. And, you know, he was a little bit older than us, but seemed way wiser. Yes. And clearly way more talented and deep and funny. And he was a great mentor to Adam. and I got to hang with him a bit. And he was so nice.

And through the years, he's someone we all look up to. And yeah, it gets better by the year. It's like he's our Tom Waits or our Randy Newman. Right, right. And he was so good in train wreck. So good. Talk to me about Seth Rogen. Well.

He was here on the program. He took my bread. I think he liked it. Oh, yeah. I bet he ate it. I believe he's a bread eater. Yeah. I don't think he's.

He tossed it. And he was so good in the studio. But you saw him, met him when he was what? 16. 16. You know, he read for Freaks and Geeks. We saw it on tape. So you get a tape and there's like 40 people reading.

Yeah. And Paul had written some generic freak scenes. And, you know, one of them was like a kid doing a monologue about how he has a dream of having an underground pot farm. And then when, when the cops come, he could always like blow. the entrance. And then they just think it's a cornfield. And he's like explaining this like stone theory of like the underground grow lights.

And he did it so funny. Right. And so we had to bring, you know, the whole cast to NBC to get them approved. But there was a transition in the head of NBC. So the head of NBC was now kind of the money guy. The creative guy had left and they hadn't replaced him yet. Oh, geez. So this higher up guy was kind of in charge for a moment.

Oh, no. And then we had this tape of Seth and I somehow pulled some scam where I'm like, yeah, he's up in Canada and this guy too. It was just him on tape. So Seth's enough to fly down. And that guy approved the entire cast, which never happens. Usually they interfere and go, you know, these three and not these two. And that's why shows are bad. Yeah.

But this guy didn't know to try to take over. Right. And he just said, oh, yeah, this all seems good. And that's why the cast is good. And so, that's amazing. And then Seth would be, you know, we didn't really know what he was capable of. Because in the beginning, you know, he was, you know, it's a guy making kind of wisecracks. Right.

And, you know, just like the funny, sharp, edgy friend. Yeah. Who would just pop in with the great vicious line. Yeah. But the more we got to know him and the more we saw him work, we were like, wait, he's like a sweetheart. Right. So underneath that is a super sweet. guy. Right. And that's funny that he's got an edgy but a softie. And we would see him

improvise when we were trying to fix scenes sometimes. And we were like, oh, he's a writer. Yeah. Because what he's improvising is amazing. Yeah, yeah. And then we did undeclared the next year and brought him on. He was 18 as a writer. And he wrote amazing episodes. And he'd already written super bad on his own with his friend. At like 14. 14. Yeah, and he had a real strong... A very similar thing to you, really. Like, he had a real comedy obsession as a kid.

Yeah, the energy to, you know, to really work hard. He was doing stand-up, I think, at like 15. Yeah. And so when, you know, when the shows ended, we were all just like, well, what do we do now? And we all just started writing. Right. No one would make any of it. Right.

And then finally, they made, you know, Anchorman. And then the floodgates opened and suddenly. they were interested in all the things that we had all written. Right. But we just kept writing even though no one would let us do anything. Right. We didn't stop writing the next one, which is kind of a lesson. Like Superbad, no one was going to make it.

Yeah. And I said, well, you know, I have this idea about like a pot dealer, like running from assassins. Right. And then, you know, we put the grow lights concept from the freaks and geeks audition in it. Because that's, it ends in that barn underground. Right, right. So no good ideas left unused. And then they wrote that.

And then no one would make that. Right, right. And then finally after, you know, Anchorman did well. And then I think it was Taldaiga Knights after that. And Fortyield Virgin, then they were like, well, what else do you have? Oh, we happen to have all this other stuff. Getting Sarah Marshall is sitting here and this is sitting here. Jeez.

I mean, just that look, just that short little list right there. Yeah. That was like, man, that was the biggest moment of. in comedy at that time was just those films. Yeah. It was huge. And everyone was helping everybody. Right.

So because there were a bunch of things floating, right. We would do table reads and everyone would come to all the table reads and help punch up and pitch in. And that's why I think the quality was really high because, you know, you would do. Just getting Sarah Marshall table read. Yeah. And Seth and Evan would show up. And then you'd do Superbad and Siegel would show up. And that really made a big difference.

And just kind of feeding off each other. amazing. I can't believe I was trying to get past at the improv at the time. Try to get silver to appreciate you. I really was just so focused on stand-up. I was like, I should have been following you. You talk about in the Stepbrothers section, I guess I can call them chapters, about how you I don't know if you learned it or that you just saw the way that it was the way you put it together is joke to joke

that that was I don't know if it was revelatory at the time like the or you just were pointing it out of you know your job was to kind of make sense of it and kind of give it some heart and bring it back but yeah but that idea about putting a film a comedic film together it sounds kind of stupid as I say it out loud but that you are going from joke to joke

With a certain kind of movie, it's just surviving joke to joke. Right. Because, you know, when you do a hard comedy that's really going for it, wall to wall, if jokes don't work, the audience loses faith in you. And so one really bad joke makes you lose them for a few minutes. Right. Literally for... Yeah.

And you have to get rid of the bad jokes because they make them lose faith in you. Right. And so it's so much harder. I mean, for the people that can do that, like Will and Adam, It's a miracle. But, you know, when you have less emotional drive, you know, it's because in some movies, things can be mildly amusing, but you're following it in a different way. Right.

But when a movie tells you, no, everything we're doing is supposed to be a huge laugh. We're going for this dance right now. You have to come through. But even in stepbrothers, who is going for it that way, there is real heart. And you found it in the parents. Yeah, I mean, that was always in there. My job more than the comedic part was usually just trying to figure out, you know, how do we make this make sense? Right.

What is this about? Could it be about anything? Yeah. At least one foot on the ground. Exactly. Like, because when you don't have that, you run out of gas also. Right. If you don't have a emotional connection.

Yeah. Yeah. So I was always like, okay, these two guys, like, what are we really tracking? And at some point, we were all talking. and like, I guess it's about competing parenting styles. Right. And finally, they win. The kids win.

Like, we're unraiserable. It's so funny. And sometimes my job is to not ruin things. Uh-huh. Because sometimes things are so funny. Yeah. But I don't get it. Mm-hmm.

Right? So, like, I remember reading Stepbrothers. And it really, the first job was like, 160 pages. Whoa. It was so funny. Yeah. But there would be whole sequences where I would think.

I mean, that's really funny. It makes me laugh sitting here. But would that work if you shot it? Right. Like, can you really have it be that Will sings opera at the end? At the Catalina wine mixer? Well, people know what this wine mixer thing means? And in my head, I'm like, Judge, just be quiet.

Don't be the guy who doesn't get it. Yeah, yeah. Don't be square. Then they cut it together. It's like perfect. They're like, oh, good, good. You shut your mouth because you didn't understand this. You didn't get in the way.

What was that combination like the Will Adam thing? Just a magical chemistry. They're just completely in tune to each other's sense of humor and why they find things funny. I mean, a lot of these movies are about, you know, arrogant, dangerous, dumb men. Right. What's interesting is you look back now, right? Yeah. We shot Anchorman in, I think 2003, came out in 2004.

Right. I think they really anticipated a lot of what's happening in the country, and they were talking about it, you know, in metaphors and in these movies, like Talladega Nights, you know, just about guys who really think they're the shit who are just kind of going to destroy things for everybody else. Right, right. and who don't realize how awful they're being. Yeah, interesting.

It's interesting. It's funny because Adam now, I think, is involved with Tim Robinson and chair company. It's funny because he's kind of a new will in a way, Tim. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, and it's another almost hyper version of what you just explained. Yeah. Like that male just screaming. It's like stupid to another.

another level. It's capturing how we all feel right now. Yeah, with like, with tiny little glimpses of of heart, but that's, that's shrunk. It's now like so. When they look back on this time, that's what they're going to watch. Yeah. That epitomizes it. I meet you when you are back into stand-up, and it's kind of gone full circle. Like, you're back doing a lot of stand-up and doing a lot of Largo and a lot of charity shows and stuff, but also making these great docs and books about comedy and comedians, which is how it all started in the beginning, was you running around like the documentarian kid. You kind of like come back to that at this stage in your career. But it's with a different perspective because you now know all these people. You've been through

all that with them. It's a pretty cool bookend. Yeah, it makes it fun to do that because, you You can, you know, a lot of things are the things I wish existed. Like, just better documentaries about comedians. Yeah. Yeah. What I would see, the Bob Dylan documentary made by Scorsese, the idea that you could make one of those about Chanling or George Carlin or Mel Brooks. Yeah. And it was the dream, like the deep dive, the taking it very seriously and showing their emotional life in addition to their work life.

Right. Yeah. And it's been really fun. You know, we have one about Norm McDonald. That's going to come out next year. one about Maria Bamford. Yeah. And I really like doing it.

It is a version of the book. You know, the comedy nerd in me couldn't be happier sitting down having to watch every joke Maria Bamford ever told. Yeah. Trying to figure out which ones you would use in a documentary. Right. Yeah. That's so great. That's the dream.

Yeah. Man, oh, man. It's really impressive. Can I ask you a couple uncomfortable questions? Of course. Thank you. Are you having fun? I love it.

I love it. I don't like that you don't eat the bread during the conversation, but other than that, I think it works. It's Steelers' choice. It's your bread. New York or L.A. When you were little,

you've been braced in course of recreat, always in trying to negotiate, exchange these cards of hockey, the bonhom, these bracelets, even some of the collation. You know,

that each thing has a value, well, before to have to be able to be the things have not really changed. Nogicit-tit-T-D

you can't to renew with your instinct of negotiation. With without operation gratisite, no amount on minimum and no free

mensual. You're made for negotiate. And the app Negotiate T-D is made for you aid.

Telecharge it right now. Whoa, that's a rough one. New York or L.A.? I'll say New York just because I put in a lot of L.A. time

And I am nervous about my house burning down. Yeah. If you were near my house, there's like these signs from the city that say you are in a stage five

fire zone. Oh shit. It's like tons of of warnings, I'm like, why do I need to be warned this much on my block? I get it. All my friends' homes are gone. I know what's going on. Exactly.

By the way, proceeds of this book all go to... Fire aid and also to 826, which is a tutoring and literacy program for kids that Dave Edgar started. Oh, very cool. So all the money goes, all my proceeds go. And after expenses and expenses is like private jets and massages and stuff like that. Right, of course, prostitutes. We get it. Cheese or chips? Chips.

Favorite chip? Yeah, I like a good kettle, kettle barbecue chip. That's good. Donuts are masturbating. Donuts are masturbating? Are they different? The only reason why I'm going to say donuts is like right as I was walking out of the door, even though the Ozzympic was kicking in, I saw a donut at the office. And I'm like, I'm going to have one bite of that. And then I ate the whole donut.

And I could have masturbated. But I didn't. So I guess I know. There's nothing on that. Have you ever had to fire someone for not being funny? I did, yes. You did? I did once.

Once, only once. I don't think I said that. I said that there was a lack of chemistry. Mm-hmm. But it just, there just wasn't. Felt a thing, a spark wasn't happening that was supposed to. happen. Right.

Colin. Best executive fight. There's a story in the book where we did the Benziller show and the man who canceled it, who never liked it, kept his job for many years running Fox Network. Right. And then they asked me to make a TV show for them. You know, this is seven years after the cancellation of the Steelers show. And I said, well, I'll do it, but you have to give me the whole season.

You can't cancel me before the end of the season. Just give me a year to find the audience. Right. And then they said, okay. Wow. And then they canceled me in the middle of the season. So we were in Time magazine and it was the cover. Not the cover.

It was the best TV of the year article. And it was literally like, The Sopranos, undeclared. And it was this rave of the show. And back then, something like that in Time magazine was kind of a big deal. Yeah. And so I took it out and I framed it. And then I put a little post-it note on it. And I wrote to the executive,

I don't know if you just fucked me in the ass again or your penis is still in me from last time. And then I found out later that the executive who, I said it to that the assistant saw it was shocked and sent it right back to DreamWorks. And the executive at DreamWorks is Justin Valvey had it in his office for the last 25 years. And he sent it to me like a year ago. And he had it with the note on it. Amazing.

So the executive never saw it. The executive. Well, now he'll see it in the book. That's amazing. The book is amazing. Thank you so much for being here. This was really great. And it really, I was going to just stay in my office and just be able to like just flip through.

You do a really good job with books. Thank you, sir. The Shandling one was also. Yeah, the Shandling one was also really special. And the Sickenhead interview books are still out there. Yeah, just so great. Well, thank you for reading it. Yeah.

I hope you read it in the toilet. I didn't. Yeah, it's built for the toilet because every page you could just open to. Yeah. It's heavy, though, for the toilet. That's right. It is, you know what, it's a heavy book. It is heavy.

Even I'm a little shocked by its girth. Yeah. It's weight. You've done a lot, kid. It's a very thick, thick paper. Do you, where do you go from here? Do you, uh... Go to New York to do Colbert.

Oh. The View. Seth Myers. Nice. So I'm going to basically just talk politics and end my career. I was going to get really aggressive about my thoughts about things. And I'm going to stand behind it. Are you, uh,

Are you still hungry to go make things? I am. Film or TV things. Yeah, I'm going to make a movie next year and excited to finish up these documentaries. But I am. So it's certainly a weird atmosphere out there. Yeah, it is. But I've been working on a movie with Glenn Powell, a comedy about country music that we're going to shoot next year.

Oh, that'll be fun. Oh, cool. Yeah, you know, I was thinking about that. If you were a young kid today, you don't really have that. path that you took because the medium has changed so much. Where you find comedy is so different. I mean, someone else will find a different path, but this was unique to the time of like what you were able to digest and then go make. Now you can just get on SORA and make a two-hour movie in 40 seconds. It's very different. Yeah, it's going to have a lot of soul. It won't be creepy

at all. Thanks, Joe. This is great. Thank you, sir. Lazang sur-gillet, Puisance-Moyerned 15 minutes. We'd say that's the hour dojo. Prere to play?

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