Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 323 - Fumi Abe

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

We're thrilled to welcome Fumi Abe to the table! He and Tom talk crowd work, AI, and the life of a comic. Enjoy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today we bring to the table a very funny comedian Fumi Abe. He's very funny, very talented. I'm very excited to introduce you all to him if you don't know him already. I'm very much looking forward to recollecting the time that he opened for me in Hawaii. I won't tell you what happened, but I'm very excited to break that open because I think he was a little surprised at what happened there and I was and I want to get to the bottom of it. He's a very smart, very conscientious comedian. He's really funny. You're going to enjoy this conversation very much. And I think it's really great when you get to see people who you see for the first time and you

think are really funny. And then a year goes by and it's like, no, everybody's starting to think that this person is very funny. It's a, Not an unusual thing, but it's a great thing when you see people who love comedy and pour everything into it. And the comedy just keeps getting better. He's going to be one to watch for sure. So enjoy my conversation with Fumi Abe. It's breaking bread. Thanks for being here.

That's for having me. Yeah, I made you some bread. This is real. This is real. That's your bread now. It's no longer mine. It is yours now. That's how bread works.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's the process of bread. What kind of bread? Is it sourdough? It is sourdough. A country loaf.

It's beautiful. Right? Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. Well, it's yours now. What is, do I eat it now or do I, do we look at it and do we? Like I said, it's out of my hands. Most people take it home.

We have a bag for you. I'm going to do that. Yeah. I'm going to do that. And let us know how you like it. Well, thank you for making it. I was just like listening to like an episode of yours just to get the vibe of the show. Yeah.

You were interviewing Nick Swartz and you're like, I just got home from the road. I didn't want to make bread and you didn't like make it. Or like he couldn't eat it, but then you were like. Oh, he let me off the hook. But also you were like, I couldn't have made it anyways because I was on the road. I was really concerned. Like usually the timing, because you got to feed the starter a couple days before you bake it and that's a whole thing. And I didn't get it done.

And then he texted me from the road and said, just so you know, I don't eat bread. Yeah, but this is, I mean, the time you put into this is, it's amazing. Yeah. And I don't even, I feel like I don't even know you that well. This is like, yeah. This is like a lot. Well, we only, we've only been, we've only been together once. In Hawaii.

In Hawaii. Yeah. This is really the whole reason I'm having you on, other than you being a funny comedian. It's because you're going to Hawaii again. It's so we can go to Hawaii again. No, I, this is my, this is my recollection of our Hawaii trip. Okay. I was playing in Hawaii the Hawaii Theater in Oahuah.

And my tour manager, Madeline, was like, oh, I know someone who'd be great to open for that show. And so we did it. And this is how I see if this is how you would encapsulate what that show was. you were like, these people are older than I thought they were going to be. I said that to you? Yeah. No, I did it. You said it on stage.

You were telling you jokes about dating or something like or being on hinge or something. And you were like, I think these people are older than I thought they were going to be. And then at the end, and then we made you, my wife was there and we made you come to dinner with us. And I felt like you and Madeline the whole time we're like, we're having to eat with the grownups but we really rather be at the club. That's so funny. By the way, I mean, that is,

I'm just the rudest opener. I was so real. It's really, I wasn't rude. It was just like, I think that's just the way it went down. I just have ADHD and just say things without really thinking about it, which like works in my favor a lot of times except for that moment.

But I just completely insulted the people who came to see you. That's insane that I said that. I guess because it was Hawaii, I was like, it'll be like cool, like Asian-y people. Yeah, cool young Asian people. No, they were not. No, they were older white people. And they're there too in Hawaii. And families, little kids and stuff.

And you were like, oh, all right. And then at the end you were like, I really want to go drink this off. And you had to sit at dinner with us like grown people. I enjoyed it, though. I enjoyed it. We did do something crazy after you guys left. You did. I don't know if she told you that.

I don't know if I'm not how to say. You can say. Well, we went. went to so like I had brought some friends to that show from college and we like after we did dinner they live in Hawaii they moved there during COVID and so they like made a lot of friends in the Hawaii is very small everybody kind of know each other yeah it's also very transit city so people come in and out and they knew some people who like own some bar so we like went there and like drank for free and then they were also investors in this like

strip club or something which I didn't even know they had that in Hawaii so I just went with your tour manager did a strip club what? I never heard that. It was crazy. It wasn't just me and her. It was like a bunch of other people.

All right. So this confirms the vibe at dinner. Yeah. Which was like, we could be here eating listening to Tom's story

about his kids or we could be at a strip club with people who are younger than his kids. But I'm not that young. I'm not that young, you know. I'm 36, man. 36. Oh, you're getting old. Yeah, I'm up there. How long you've been doing stand-up? I started when I was 24. Oh, nice. Like 12 years. Nice. I was just thinking about it as a third of my life. Which is a big, I almost don't even count the

first third. It's like one, zero to 12. It's like, you don't even know who you are. You're just going to school. But in the same regard, you really don't even count the first four years of comedy either. That's true. Yes, I was absolutely terrible. In the beginning, yeah. And you, and, you, and, you, and, you, it's so infrequent that you go up, right? Like, it's so hard to get gigs and get on stage. Yeah, yeah. You know, people say, like, well, you started whenever. It's like, those first couple of years were pretty sporadic.

Absolutely brutal. Yeah. Where did you start? Start in New York. Oh, you were in New York. I grew up there. It was interesting. It's interesting because, like, I'm not like that old, but I'm still old enough to have done

stand up before, like, TikTok and stuff. Right. You were the last class of comedians to do that. Like for a good, my first, I guess, six years, we were all just like, how do you get famous? Like, we didn't know. Like, there was no way to do it. No path. There was no path unless you were, like, chosen to do like a comedy central half hour.

But even then, it's like you do it. And then, like, not, it's not like the world changes for you. Maybe you're selling more tickets at the club. I don't know. But I don't know what the impact of that was, like, when you were coming up. But that was like all we had. That was it. Late night, half hour.

Right. Gatekeepers. Yeah, a lot of gatekeepers. to tell you whether you were allowed to do these things. Yeah, like JFL and stuff like that. Right. And now it's just like the other way around. It's like I think all the writers and the creators,

we have like kind of all the power if you can, you know, amass your own audience. Right. Yeah, and just put it out there. I remember I was at the comedy seller and I, there was a couple comedians. I didn't know younger comics and I heard them talking. And one guy said,

it's not even about the spots. It's just about the clips. It's just about the clips. They said that at the cellar. At the cellar. That's so sad, man. And he was like, it was all about where you're going to put your camera? What are you going to do?

And it's just, and it was just like, it's, that's, the whole game is just get the clips. Yeah, yeah. And it was about doing crowd work and getting the clips. It wasn't about working on the jokes. Yeah. And I was like, of course, I was like, oh boy, this is, this is not good. This is all changed. But the other side of it was they're right.

You know, you have this ability. you know, it's weird because it's on the same stage where you have real artists trying to do stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But it does just totally change. Yeah, I go back and forth on that. Like, I do understand the importance of, like,

trying to amass an audience because it gives me freedom. But I still don't really know how to, like, like, I'm at this point where, like, if I write a bang or new joke. Yeah. Do I release it in hopes that I get new fans and sell tickets? Right. Or do I save it? So when you come see me, you haven't heard it before.

I don't know. Right. I don't have, I feel like I just have to do it. I just have to post it because I don't feel like I have a choice, really, because I. Because that is your comedy. That might be the one that gets me more fans or something, you know? Like, I don't know. And that is your Comedy Central half hour.

That is your Tonight Show. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you can release this stuff. Sure, yeah. So potentially more audience will see it than if you did those shows.

Yeah, so I always have, and I'm also like, I've kind of let go a little bit in terms of I just realized like people, if they like you, they'll watch a couple clips and they'll come. Or they'll watch you on a don't tell set or something they'll come. So they may have seen maybe up to five to ten minutes of your react. Only the super fans will Google every single thing you've done. And there's like seven of those. Yes. And so like those people might come up and be like, oh, like, same stuff.

It's like, well, you come to every show. You literally come to every show. Yeah, I should call the cop. Like, in LA, like, people come. If you brought me 10 new people, I'll give you new material. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so I think about that a lot. But I think as I get older, I'm kind of going back to more like I do,

I think what pierces through all this noise is still people who write a lot and a lot of good stuff. And so I'm just trying to get that. I'm never envious of people who blew up online. I'm envious of people who can write. a lot really fast. Right. And I always go, I want to do that. And that seems to me more of like a pure sense of, not jealousy, but more like aspiration.

That seems more pure to me than being bitter about like, oh, so-and-so's clip about like this guy saying something racist went viral. It's like, I can't manufacture that. Right. Sorry that my audience isn't like yelling like racial throws up my shows. It was like, doesn't happen that often. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I was talking to an owner of a club, of a really good club, and I've known him for a long time. And he was talking about this, about how it's so different from when he started. And he's had all the great acts that we know have gone through there. And he said, you know, it was you would watch somebody and be like, oh, they've got stuff. And they'd come back and their act would be better. And they'd have better jokes. And it just kind of grew.

And it was like this conversation with the audience. And he said, now a majority of the people who are selling tickets in his own club are people from crowdwork fame. Yeah. Where they posted a lot of crowdwork and they just go up and they just kind of shoot the shit. And it's kind of a crazy audience. It's like very, they're not like a unified, like, fan of Fumi. It's just fans of Instagram. Yeah.

Yeah. And he said it's, I could tell. He was a little crestfallen. Oh, wow. Because the art that he loved and the reason he started the club isn't happening in his own showroom right now. I don't know if it was because of theater, but you don't really do crowdwork. Or I guess you can't in that setting because it's too big. Well, that's what, that was the question I had was how can the, I mean, he was, the kid was selling five shows.

Theaters and stuff? No, in this club. And it's a big club. It's like 300 each show. And he was sold out like five, six shows. Wow. And yeah, they were adding shows. And, but I was thinking he could go to a theater, but can you go to a theater?

I mean, Matt Rife does it on like this big way with like big screens and stuff. But if you're in like an 800-seat theater, a thousand-seat theater, like I feel like when I do talk to the audience for whatever reason, you know, just to break things up, I can feel the boredom in the back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They don't see the guy you're talking to. They don't hear the guy you're talking to. Yeah. So why, like, there's that disconnect.

If you were purely a crowdwork comic, yeah. Can you do it in those settings? You know, I'm thinking back to Todd Barry's crowdwork special in 2014 or something. Yeah. I didn't even know, I started in 2014 before that. I didn't even know the word crowdwork. I don't know what it meant.

Yeah. I knew what it was, but I went to his show at the Bell House. Uh-huh. I was like a 23-0. It was called the crowdwork tour, but I didn't know that word. So I was like, why is he just talking to us the whole time? But Bell House is maybe 400. It is theater-ish.

Right, right. Maybe they just lit the crowd up or something. But he did do it. He just did, he did do crowdwork the whole time. Yeah. So I guess it is possible. But yeah, but to your point, if it's like a double, not double-decker, two-floor theater, you can't. You can't.

Unless you have a camera guy running around with you, which some people do. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. It's a weird thing. Sebastian Manascoco does that, right? Like they have like cameramen. Oh, do they?

Like if you talk to the audience, they just, just so everyone can enjoy it. Uh-huh. You know? But that seems like a whole thing. That's a whole thing. You got to bring a camera crew. You got to be making Manascolco money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To have a crew come and do the Jumbotron and the thing. And it's a weird thing because the, uh, what you're expressing of how you approach comedy, the joy is the writing of it. performing of it. That's the exploration of you as a person and you as a comic and that's what makes the thing worth leaving your house at 9 o'clock at night. Yeah, yeah. To just go out just to try and amass an audience is, I don't know, it's a totally different thing. It's weird because we're comparing it, but it's completely foreign to what we do. Right. It just happens to be on the same stages of that we're a week work.

Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean... It's tantamount to somebody just coming and juggling on that stage. Right. And you're like, well, I don't do that,

but we're both on the same spot. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think about this stuff too much and I try to think about it. I think my therapist is sick of hearing me talk about it. That's the thing. It's like every comedian's therapist knows like crowd work.

They all always like jargon now, you know? Yeah. Well, the audience, when it does work, I mean, when I do talk to them, and if I would go out and sign books afterwards and talk to the audience, the thing that they would bring up most often was whatever I set off the cuff to an audience member, they see it as a magic trick. Yeah. They totally see it. They don't realize it's not that difficult to do. Sure, sure. I also... It gives the perception of being really difficult. Yeah, and I'm not anti-crowdwork. I think it's fun to do like a little bit per show. I always

just stick it in the middle for fun. Or if something happens, of course, I'm going to address it. But like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, like, getting on stage the seller to be like, let's see what we got is crazy. It's insane. Yeah. Especially now, like, you know, when, like, I think when you first get in, there's, like, a period where, like, Estee will give you spots, but, like, you have to kill.

There's no, you have to. You have to. You have to. You have to. Until 10 years. Yeah. So, like, just, you know, so I think just, like, someone like, in that stage. It's like I can't even fathom even putting it in their hands. I'm just like,

I got this, I got this in here. I'm locked in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were starting out, though, it was the old school version of it. Yeah, open mics. And then you've watched it flip. Yep, open mics like three times a night kind of thing. Barking. I barked at McDougall. Oh, you did? For that other club down the street? Grizzly pear. Grisly pear. Yeah. And the lantern. It's called something else. I forget. Yeah. Yeah. I did all that. I remember. I I remember like running into my coworkers on like Friday nights. I was like embarrassed because I used to work in advertising. Oh, you did?

Yeah. And then I would like, you know, where people made like regular salaries and stuff. And it's like a Friday. So everybody's like dressed up going to the bar and I'm like selling tickets in my hoodie. It was like so mortifying, you know. That always seems like really hard work. Yeah. Because nobody wants to talk to you.

And then and then when you say it to the comedy seller comedians who were walking by. The worst. And I don't know that. Yeah. And you're like, you want to go see a show? They're like, dude, I'm a comedian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the worst.

It's absolutely the worst. Yeah. But, you know, I think when you're new, like, it was the only stage time I was getting with, like, real people. Was it fun? It was fun. And it's interesting because you know when to quit when you're the funniest guy on the show. Because those shows aren't run by, like, amazing comedians, right?

If the fact that they have to get barkers means, like, the people on the bill are, like, they're trading for spots or whatever. Like, you know, and they're very nice people. But, like, you do get to a point. you're like, oh, I'm the funniest person in the show, and I'm the guy selling tickets. So it's like, I gotta go. Right, right.

And that's the deal. If you're on the show, you have to sell tickets in those places. I would like, I think a lot of the ones I did were like free. Uh-huh. You had to buy a drink or something. Right, right. And then where was your next step after you're barking? What club did you start to make?

I don't know. You know, it's interesting. Like New York had so many opportunities for stage time, like independent shows and independent shows like clubs and all that. Like, I never really was in at any club. I tried. Oh, yeah? I just, I had a hard time getting in.

I remember, like, gosh, like, this was, like, forever ago. I would, like, line up once a year to sign up for a comic strip audition. Yeah. And then, like, if that guy, I forgot, isn't it, Richie or something? Oh, no, Lucian was gone by then. No, that really old guy. Oh, Richie. Yeah, the guy.

The original guy. The Eddie Murphy guy. The Eddie Murphy guy. That's a claim to fame. Right. And if he liked you, you could come in for late night, which is, like, you come at, like, 10 on like a Tuesday and you can do five minutes for people who are like

they're done watching the show but if they stay they get free tickets or something and then there's 10 comedians doing five so it's 50 additional minutes so I remember like doing that but then like you would always forget who I was and I was like I lived in Brooklyn so it was like really far away from me so I was like

I can't do this and so I was doing a lot of like indie shows when I was there right and I felt like as long as I was getting stage time like I really and I still feel the way now like I didn't really care, like, if it was New York Comedy Club or if it's like a really well-produced independent show, I didn't care. Like, I just wanted to get better, find my voice, find my audience. So that was my attitude, like, the first five to seven years. Yeah. But you can do that in New York.

You don't have to be. I don't know, Minneapolis or something, you might have to be at the club because there's not a lot of places doing comedy. People were doing so many shows in so many different spots. Yeah. All around. And LA. Yeah. So that was nice. Yeah. And it almost was like the pre uh the pre like the the kind of like the the the deconstruction of the club scene again with the gatekeeper it was like well you can try and get past at this club or we can just going to do a show in my basement yeah these people i was saying the other night i was with my family for easter and i was talking to my nephew and we were talking about stavros and because he'd just seen the film that he was in yeah and and

And I said, yeah, he's doing great. I said, he's come a long way. He used to open for me. Really? Yeah, like way back. Wait, that's, he's like so dirty, isn't he? He's so dirty. You're like super clean.

He would kind of clean it up a little bit. He would still end with his going down on old ladies or something as his clothes. But I just thought he was hilarious. And I just met him as he was just young and coming out of Maryland. Yeah. And so anyway, I said, yeah, he's coming a long way since he opened for me. And he goes, he did a show in our basement of our apartment. There was like that same thing.

They were in Brooklyn and they were just having a comedy night. And they asked him to come. And he did a show in like, you know, 20 people in this kind of like made up club. Yeah. And that's just the way it was. Those are fire. I mean, I remember my goal when I was a younger comedian was like it wasn't like seller. It was like, I just wanted to do the knitting factory.

Right. And Bill Burr's had that show. and then he gave it to some other people. And to me, that was like, if I can just get on that Sunday show, that's free. And you get paid like 20 bucks. If I could just get on that. But I miss those days. You know, now I think that venue has shut down.

I don't think it exists anymore. Oh, really? All these places where I had like a lot of good memories are like gone. Are they? Is there still a scene? Is there still like a... Now, now it's so interesting how comedy evolves. I'm only 12 years in, but now it's in New York, it's indie clubs.

Indie clubs. So the same people that were really... running the really cool independent shows. They just rent a space or bought a place and they just run it like a comedy club, but it's in Williamsburg and they book kind of those kinds of comedians. The model is the same as a New York comedy club or what have you. But it's just like they're just doing it in neighborhoods where there's like cool like younger people living. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and the vibe is a little bit different, but it's a club. Right, right. So they do that. Yeah, it is really interesting. There's so many shows.

at the cellar now, you know, and they're opening another room. Right, they bought the McDonald's, right? Yeah. That's so crazy. Yeah. So, there's five rooms now? Yeah. It's incredible.

And that audience is going to be completely different from those Brooklyn audiences. Right, right, right, right. And then you go just 10 blocks, 20 blocks up to Gotham. That audience is completely different from the seller audience. Yeah. It's so strange how you could have these little pockets. Yeah. Did you come up?

in New York? Yeah. You did? Okay, cool, cool. But that's everybody's very part about New York, is just a different audience. And you can go to Harlem if you want to, go do a black room if you want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did all that. Where are you living now? I'm in. I'm in, I'm in West Hollywood. How do you like this scene out here now? It's cool. I mean, I think, obviously, like, not as accessible as New York, I think. I mean, unless you're in at, like, the comedy store or something, but, you know, I think, um, you know, even the way things are run in the scene is like so reflective of like New York versus L.A. Like, New York, it's like, you want to audition at the seller? Like, have somebody there refer you. It's that easy.

You know, have somebody S.E. Trust, if you'll give you five minutes. If it's good, it's good. If not, come back again later. Very straightforward. It's like, are you good? But, you know, I think in L.A. it's like not that straightforward. It's a little bit different. I'm not saying it's just good or bad. It's just different. And so it's been interesting. to kind of like take that in I've had a lot of like you know people talk about like I don't know if you're like a basketball fan but you know people talk about the welcome to the NBA moment you know what that is no it's when somebody goes from college to the NBA and no matter how they how good they were in college they welcome to the NBA moment because the NBA players are so

good and they've been playing some people have been playing 20 years like you have to play LeBron yeah right you know he may be 40 but he just knows the game better than you because you're 19 yeah and so everybody has like welcome to the NBA moment where they just get kind of embarrassed by another player. And they might not even be a start. It could just be like some guy that you don't really play with on NBA 2K. You never heard of this guy, but he's way better than you. Yeah.

And I've had a couple moments. Like I call like Welcome to the L.A. moments where like I've just been like, whoa, like, this is some like L.A. thing. And I'm very out of my element right now. Like what? Like trying to get on the shows or? Um, I mean, I had some stuff with like agents and stuff that were weird. Oh, really?

Like going behind my back about certain things and I found out later and I confront them and they just deny you know just like little things like that well I mean I'm not gonna mention names but like when I came here I dropped my manager and I was going to and then I told my agents that I would just to give him a heads up. Yeah. And they like told him before I could and I'm like why would you do that? Why would you do you know what I mean? And then like the people that were like loyal to him just like left my team without saying anything and I was like I've just never experienced anything like that. I've just never experienced anything like that. And I've just never experienced anything like that. in my life and I was like 31 and I was like new to agents and managers and I was like I'm like scared like is this what it's like you're right welcome to L.A. Yeah it was like that was my first welcome to L.A. moment. Right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah it's a different yeah well it's not it there's more elements about of the business than just the stand-up. Yes yes you're just dealing with people like I remember early on saying to uh having people try and get on shows at the cellar and And they'd be like, oh, you know, he's on such and such show. And Esty would be like, I don't care about that.

What does that mean? But I love that. I love that. Because it was just about, do I know them as a comic and how do they pass? Yes. There's a guy there right now named Ethan Simmons-Patterson. He's amazing. I think he's one of Esty's favorite.

He's maybe a little bit younger than me. He doesn't even have Instagram. He's active like, don't follow me. He's so good. He has a fan account. And that's where they post his clips. Oh, really? But he's a full-time nurse or something.

He's, like, really passionate about helping people. Yeah. And he just, he does that. I remember he was so good. And then he was like, I'm going to take a little break because I'm going to go to grad school for nursing. And he, like, went, did that. Came back doing the cellar, like, and he's happy. Yeah.

And but that's New York. You know what I mean? It's like, the purity. The purity. And I'm not saying, like, you know, obviously he's not as big as some of my other peers who on TV now. Sure. You know, I used to do open much with like Rachel Senate. She's in movies. Right. So you can't compare these two. But I'm just saying like that attitude, not just comedy. That's New York as the city. Like no matter if you're doing it. If you're starting your

own company, if you got an app, if you're working finance, it's like that grit, I miss. Yeah. And I feel like it may because I'm an immigrant, I just relate with that sentiment. Like the work. Like you work. It's like, I don't care about the branding. Like if you're a cook, is your food good? It's going to blow me away because if it's not, I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, it's a difficult thing because it's purely about the work and you want to keep focused and you have to really keep blinders on. Yeah.

Because there's so much distraction and injustice when you get to the part. When you watch someone who sucks get really great, like get really big things. Yeah, yeah. And you're just like, no, it's just about the work. And then you're like, why is he driving around in a Bentley? It's just about the work. It's just about the work. It's just about the work.

Your car's getting towed. It's just about the work. You can't afford Uber. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just about the work. It's just about the work. But it's interesting here. You talk about it because you've been in the game for so long

and like your peers are like legends now, right? And so like, I mean, looking from above, like does it just look like a bunch of children playing in the park? Like are you all being stupid or like what is it? I mean, it's fascinating because it's in a lot of ways it's different. In a lot of ways it's exactly the same. And I mean, the one comforting thing is it's people that have been doing it longer than I have or just people who are actors or whatever.

The undercurrent of am I doing enough, am I growing enough, am I getting better, that anxiety over those questions never goes away. So that's kind of calming that you start. starting off with your open mics, that same anxiety is going to be present all the time. Yeah. You're not going to solve that. So that is kind of...

That sounds awful. It's not really because it keeps you digging. It keeps you working. It keeps you... That is the joy of it. Yeah. The joy of it is the work. Yeah.

That is the thing. All the rest of it will kind of take care of itself. Yeah. And it's, so there's no, there's no, it lessens the anxiety because there's, it's not that you're doing something wrong that you still feel, uh, like, am I doing enough? Right. Am I, am I working hard enough? Am I writing enough? Am I, am I, you know, those things are present because it's the engine that makes you create. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I, um, it's, I've, I've definitely seen this happen. And it's kind of crazy as like, anybody who's under, like, 10 years, I would still kind of consider newish, you know? And, like, I remember, like, Ronnie Chang took me to, like, some, like, MTV Awards thing because he was in L.A.

And he was there with, like, Roy. And I just was listening to them talk, just eavesdropping. Yeah. And I remember, like, Roy Wood is, like, one of my favorite comedians. I think he's so smart. And I think, like, what he's doing is, you know, I aspire to, like, that kind of style sometimes where, like, he is being goofy. but also serious. Yeah.

And he could do that because he's a dad and he's older and all these things. But anyways, he's, to me, he's like a success.

Yeah. I just heard him say something to Ronnie be like, man, I gotta get like you. Like I gotta be in the movies. Like having that I would with my friends.

Right. I got to post more like that but elevated. And I was like, oh, like it never ends. Like this guy's, it's not enough

that he's on the daily show. Like it's not about that. It's just same problem, different level. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's no, there's no, like, kickback and be like, because I think creative people, I don't think you have that.

I don't think. And I also think, especially as comics, if you ever get to the point of, all right, I did it, I'm solid now. Yeah. I'll just tour with this hour forever. You're going to just rot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone's going to, you're going to be less relevant. You're not going to be talking about things that people are interested in. Yeah. You're not going to have a little sparkle in your eyes of wanting the, that people want to listen to you. You know what I mean? It's like if you don't care, how are they going to care?

Yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, I will say like the one good thing about the posting and stuff is I do feel like I feel the pressure to write more. And I didn't feel that as much before. And I'm doing it more because it's like, well, I'm going to post this joke so I can better have another one. Right.

So what's the shelf life when you think about it in terms of material that like a of having a joke that, like, you know, if you were to do a special, it's going to be a couple of years before, you know, before you would actually record it. Yeah, I don't mean. Is it just like a joke that, all right, that one's really funny in that hit tonight,

so I'm going to post it. Yeah, because I feel like my philosophy, again, is even if it goes viral, there's so many people who haven't seen that one. Right. There might be some people at the show have seen it. But, like, and so if, let's just say 10% of people have seen that joke,

but if 90% didn't, why not do the joke? So I think if you put out a special, it would be gone. I have not done that before. Hope to in the future. But like clips, I'm like, meh, you know? It's like, I'm trying to just get over that mentally. It's like people. And sometimes it doesn't go viral.

It's almost like, it's almost like, it's a weird thing because you're putting it in front of potentially, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, but you're doing it in front of 20 people. but so like you know what I mean like it's almost like letting people on social media see your process of growing as a comic and here's a joke

and I did this one at the story last night and here it is and if a lot it's almost you know it's like because it's on a screen and it's your face and it's going to be up there yeah it's almost like

why do we treat it as precious as like doing a tonight show set or doing Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Like... So you're saying, like, being, like, less precious with your material in general? Yeah, or just less precious about what you're putting out there.

Like, when I was starting, it was like somebody had to say, you're good enough to do Comedy Central half hour. We're going to approve that half hour is good enough, and then we're going to put it on there. And that is going to be the jokes that you chose and you worked on for all of this time. That's what it is. Yeah. And because it's the same thing, you're looking at a screen and seeing the same thing. We still, I still, in my mind, carry it as it's got to be so good. It has to go through that whole process before it is sent out there to the world.

Yeah. But does it? No, I put up jokes on there and now they're different, you know? Right. It's like, oh, same premise, but I found a different way in or like it. And maybe that's the way to think of it is it's just part of the process. I think so. You get to watch me as a comic

in every iteration of it. Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's kind of like coming to a show every couple months and be like, oh, that joke is different now. Right, right, right. It's good and sad because from that, you just worded it very beautifully.

But I think a sad part is it's just people just don't remember. They just scroll, endlessly scrolling. And it's just that culture, you know? So it's like, yeah, I went viral. It's like, but what was that again? You know? I was backstage at the comedy store

and someone was talking about doing a special and and then somebody else said, well, you're just going to, you're just going to chop it up for, you're just going to chop it up for clips anyway and put it out on social media after the special comes out for in the next couple of years. You're just going to be releasing it in clips. And there was a comic and she said, I'm not in this for the clips. Oh, that's good. The opposite. I'm just thinking of it now, the opposite of what that kid said at the cellar. Yeah, yeah. And she was thinking of, no, I'm making an album.

I'm doing this big thing. Yeah. I'm not thinking of it in how we're going to then cut it all, cut it to pieces. Yeah. You know, it's weird because it's almost like you're, you're, you're showing people the process, but you also want them to see the end result as a different thing. Yeah. And it's interesting because, like, I think certain comedy styles lend itself to clips more.

Like, if you're like a more. Norman style. It's like the clip that medium is like made for you. Right. But not everyone is like stories or it's like oh man this is really funny but it's like you have to have heard the other joke first and that's like you can't make a five minute clip. You know right? So yeah it's kind of like taught me to like I've tried to write shorter jokes and stuff but that's cool just like trying new things is cool but I also like I'm not changing for Mark Zuckerberg. You know what I was just going to ask like yeah that's what I was going to ask like is. the medium can't control what you do as an artist.

Sure. Yeah. So I always try to keep that in mind. It's like, why am I, do this to impress smart? To please an algorithm I don't understand. Yeah. It's so weird. Well, that's good that you're sticking to it, though, because, and I think, and there are,

there's really good comics that are still doing it. I mean, part of me when I was like talking to that club owner, I was like, well, is the type of comedy that I and my peers do? is that going to be jazz? Is that going to be like it was really hot at one time and now was only played at Lincoln Center? Oh my gosh. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Like, is it going to be, is it going to be that form of like being a storyteller and telling these crafted jokes? Will that be jazz? And then what's, you're saying pop music is this? And then, yeah, right. And crowd work and crowd work and just doing stuff from your phone. Yeah.

is, uh, well, I like to think that like storytelling, um, obviously it's gone through different mediums, but like, I'm sure cavemen told stories too, you know what I mean? And so like, that in itself can't go away to change. And so like, you know, like no matter how bad attention span is, it's like, hey, we're sitting here right now. If you told me a really great story, I would still enjoy it very much. Right. Because we're not doing this. And so like, I don't think that, That's very human nature to hear a story. We like stories. Right, yeah.

So I don't think that's going to go away. Yeah. You know, so hopefully, you won't be jazz. Yeah. Jazz is pretty cool. Yeah. You big jazz guy? I like jazz.

Yeah. Did you ever go to the blue note when you're in New York across the street? I've never been in the blue note. Wow. No. Like New York, it's like whenever people come to town, they're like, where should we go eat? I'm like, I don't know, the olive tree upstairs from the comedy cellar. Like, I don't do rest.

I do clubs. I only know the comedy clubs and the food that's provided there. They have good food there. Yeah, it's really improved. Where do you... You came out here to write, right? Yeah, I was writing for the latest show

with James Corden. Right. It was a little over a year. Yeah, how was that? It was fun. It was like my first big boy writing job. How'd you get it? Just a minute a packet.

Really? Yep. It was during COVID. My first... four or five months was like remote. I was still living in New York. Oh, wow. I was very hesitant to move here.

But I did. I met some great people. I learned a lot. I feel like late night is like comedy grad school. Yeah. So I learned like a lot. Yeah. And there's also like, you know, like writing for another person is also another skill.

Yeah. I will be happy to admit I'm maybe not even be the best at that. Like unless like our voices kind of overlap, you know. There's some. I met writers who are not stand-ups who are like mercenaries. Like, I don't know if you've seen Game of Thrones, but you know those people who like, you know that guy that doesn't have a penis?

What's his name? The Warman guy? Yeah. He like fights for whoever has the thing. There's a lot of writers like that who like, I can just write jokes. Yeah. They're like neutral jokes so you can paint them

however you like in your voice, you know? Right. I think his stand-ups like, I just, my whole mission coming up was like, who are you, who are you, who are you? What's your voice? And so it's like. For yourself?

Yes. And so, like, I think if you, like, if our voices are similar, then, like, I could be of great service. But if you're, like, different than, like, like, I think, like, award show writing, it's like, yeah. If it's somebody I like, if we vibe, I think it's cool. But, like, I don't think I could, like, write for, like, some random guy. Right. But there's a lot of writers who can write for a random guy.

And that's, and I saw that, and I was very impressed. Yeah, it's a different skill. Or chameleons. You can do whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. And there's more work for people like that for sure. Right. Right. Are you writing now on something?

Not right now. I was in a room like, I think when I was opening for you. You know, I don't tell you this, but I was in a room when I was opening for you. And I forget what month was that like April, May or something? Yeah, I think it was spring. I like lied. And I like lied to get out of a day. So I can go to Hawaii with you. So you go to Hawaii? I said I was sick. And then I remember being in Hawaii trying not to get tan because I didn't want to get questioned on Monday.

And I was applying sunscreen like crazy And I was like, yeah, let's just like stay inside You know That's why you were in a strip club Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the only reason Like guys, couldn't go to the beach You know, I was lying to get out of my job Well, thank you for doing that

Yeah, that's how you met, that's how much opportunity meant to me, you know? And then I went up there and I ruined it Because I insulted your audience You didn't. It was very funny It was very funny. I don't mean that.

I just, I felt bad because I'm like, oh, I think he thought this was going to be cooler. No, no, no, no, no.

This is very cool. It's very cool. Yeah. So do you want to create, what's your, with your friends? And. What's with my friends?

With your friends who are out here, like hustling. How many are getting in rooms now? Or is that, is that gotten a lot smaller target? Yeah, I have a couple friends who are like booking stuff back to back,

but most of them are like, They get a thing. They're probably unemployed for like a year or two. I mean, some of my friends from the lately show, like, a couple of them have gotten stuff. But a lot of them, who I thought were great. Yeah. Because there's fewer jobs? I think so.

Yeah. They're feeling the impact of that. Like it's... Yeah, I think so. Just anecdotally, I ask because you're friends, because you've got young people hustling. From the outside, it seems like there's just fewer opportunities for it. Sure. And as you know, I think, like, it's not... I mean, I don't think Stenev is 100% meritocracy,

but if you're very funny and you can put yourself up there, people will notice you. I think with writing, I think like, you know, when I got this job last, I'm like, I like my pilot.

It's about Asian people in the Civil War. Check me out. Nice. Those are real people. But, you know, I feel like everybody has a funny pilot, right? Yeah.

If you're serious, like, everybody's pilot's great, but I got lucky. Like, some person just picked up my script and read it, gave it to the people who were in charge and they gave me an interview.

But, like, so many times I don't get job. I don't, it's like, they just didn't pick up my script. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they just kind of hire their friends or like, you know, so like, I think the goal is to like meet someone in every room that you vibe with who could maybe give you like another

opportunity. That's all. That's the whole way. Yeah, but it doesn't always happen. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I think like TV writing was cool and I obviously the money's crazy. But like, I'm, I think I'm, I'm 12 years in.

I'm 36. I think I, when you first start comedy, people are like, you got to do everything. act, right, podcast. And I did that for so long. Yeah. And I've always felt like standup was like it was my favorite, but it was always back burner because I wasn't making a lot of money. Right.

So it's like I would write a lot, but I was writing like TV pitch ideas and stuff. And I was always doing standup last. And I don't know how I still have made it this far with doing it last. And this year I'm like, I don't want it to be last. I wanted to be first. And I just, I made a lot of money last year. So I was like, can I just make it my first this year and just see what happens? Yeah.

And I'm really just enjoying the process and I'm making no money. But it's like it's cool. You made a lot of money last year off stand-up? From the room. Oh, from the room. Yeah, yeah. I did make a decent amount doing stand-up. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm super into personal finance too. So I like tag all my stuff and I know how much money I made in every city. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like, I think when you're at my level, I'm just like always like, I'm like, I don't know if you do this. You probably don't because you're already very successful. When I get gigs, I like read over the contract. And I question every expense.

And I'm like, why is this $500? Like, we're doing a 4 p.m. show in Philly. Like, is it cost 500 bucks for operation costs? When there's two shows after me, like, you're already going to be here. You know, like, I'll question. Really? I wasn't smart enough to do that. But I'm like, I'm always coming from like, you're screwing me over.

Yes. I've trust issues with everything. Yeah. So I'm always like, I don't trust anyone but me and my family. So, like, you know, so I look over everything. Yeah. It's like San Diego, I don't need a hotel. I'll drive back.

You know what I'm like? And then do you have? Do you ever make headway on that stuff? I just get clarity on what it is. Right. You know, I mean, like, recently I've been thinking about, you know, when they're like $3.50 for advertising, it's like, are you using a $350? Yeah. I just have that and I'll do Facebook market up.

Sorry, Facebook ads on my own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, so I might start doing stuff like that. But then it's like, this is like the, I don't even want to call it business. It's just my, I can't let go of certain things. I just always feel like I'm getting got. Right. And I'm like a control freak with stuff.

It's smart though. There's so much wiggle room in this business. I could be writing, but I'm learning Facebook ads. No, but it's important. I did a show years and years ago in Amsterdam. And my wife and I were just dating. She was a comic too. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. And we were doing this show over there. And Kevin Hart was on. on the show, a very young Kevin Hart. And, you know, they come out, we're in Amsterdam. And they're like, okay, you sign this for a TV show in Amsterdam. And they're like, here's the contract. And I was like signed and gave it to my wife, signed.

And then Kevin sat there with the contract and was reading through it and asking questions. And next page. And then calling his agent and then asking questions. And he went through that thing for like a half hour. and Cynthia and I were like he's going to be very successful he's playing a different game than we are meanwhile they're like

we own your kids now we're like we're on TV in Amsterdam where are you going to drink after this and Kevin went through that whole thing that's so funny yeah I like I didn't have a lawyer but recently I like I have like I might have like a podcast

and productions we had to do some contract stuff and had to get a lawyer and they sent me something for a signature. And I didn't know when a lawyer sent you something on your team, it's like ready to be signed. I didn't know that. So I like read it. Reopened it.

And then like also had AI read it and was like, hey, should we worry about these things or whatever? They're like, oh, no, when we send it to you, you can just sign it or whatever. Like they thought I was being like ridiculous. But it's like, I can't even trust a lawyer. I didn't even go to law school. He's on my side. Yeah, they're on my side. Yeah.

I should probably see a therapist about this. Yeah. I'm talking to this guy who I knew for years ago, and he's always like coming up with little business ideas, and he wants to, he was like, what about animating something like your old old stand-up? And I thought, oh, that'd be funny. You know, like, it's stuff that's, you know, 25 years old. It'd be funny to see an animation of my telling the joke about baking bread or whatever. And but then when he set back, was obviously an AI version of me doing stand-up with a microphone. Like a cartoon style, like family guy, like that kind of style. Yeah, but AI, like very AI looking. And like I really don't want AI anywhere near my creative life. Yeah. You know, because that's not why you do it.

It's not to crank stuff out. It's to explore and mine and do all that stuff. The reason we do it. And just seeing like an AI version of me spitting these jokes out, like with this crazy. AI face. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. This isn't the thing. It feels wrong. Yeah. Like to have a young animator, make it, and like, animate the bread thing as a little narration. My voice is the narration for that thing. I'd be down with that. But I see

where he's coming from. It's easy for him. We just put it in and ask AI to make it. Yeah. People like designers are doing that. I just asked this company to like help me make some merch stuff and I sent them some like inspiration I found on Pinterest and I was like can I just do something like this but like instead of this woman it's me and like make him have like the white hair because that's like my thing or whatever and like what he sent back was like clearly AI and it's like not bad but if I can tell it's AI I don't know what it is I'm not even like super anti-AI but I was like I don't feel like it's worth anything no like to me the worth comes from like oh somebody drew this yeah there's an intangible there there's a there's a soul behind it yeah

No one's going to be able to nail down exactly what that is and why we can recognize it. But it's there. Yeah. Yeah. My father was playing blues from an AI. Like he loves music and he was playing this artist from an AI singing the blues. And everybody was like, ew. And he was like, what?

It's pretty good. And everyone was like, no, grandpa, that's terrible. There's no, and nobody could say it out, no one could identify it, but it was lacking humanity. It really was. Like, it was hitting the notes and it was a blues voice and it was the thing and it was coming up with lyrics that were blues lyrics. Right. But it was. That is like, even to just demo that feels gross to me.

Just because of like what does the blues, right? Like where did it come from? Like just the history. Right, exactly. It feels just kind of like, and I'm not even trying to be like super like woke. or whatever. No, but it's real. It's just like, everything has context. Every art form has context, and I think that's what makes it special. Right. It doesn't even have to be a painful context. It could just be whatever, but it's like... The roots. But it's sort of just like, yeah,

it's like, what's the... The whole point is that it takes years to write this stuff because you have to really process it within you. And like, if you make it in three seconds, it's like, that's like not the point of the blues. Right, exactly. Exactly. On my radio show, on the Netflix show, my producer will create like stupid jingles. Like we have a thing like, you know, Tom's tech tips where I just complain about technology. Yeah. And he made up like a, he had AI make a stupid song about me.

And it's kind of funny in a radio context, like of calling out my stupid shit that I say. Yeah. And it's just like a two-minute clip of he's using it to mess with me. Yeah, yeah. For some reason that one doesn't bother me. Because jingles, I think jingo writers, they're gone. They're gone.

Because I think anything that never had soul to begin with, jingle writers, copywriters for like banks, you know, gone. It was never sold to begin with. They don't need you. You don't need your little degree from Miami ad school. They don't need that. Yeah, you're right.

But like novels, you know, like. Right. You know, just thinking about like, there's a, this was like a hit like, I don't know, five, seven years ago. There's a popular book called Pachinko. Have you heard of that? I have heard of that.

It's like, it was written by Min Lijian, or me, sorry, Min Legion. And it took her 30 years to write the book. Whoa. And it's about this Korean woman. It starts out like during Japanese occupation of Korea. It just falls this lady from when she moves from there to Japan and the discrimination that she faces there as a Korean person living in Japan and her

kids and her kids lie about being Korean because they want to fit in with Japanese. But she did a ton of research. Went to Japan, talked to these Korean people there. And it's all there. And it's like, it is such a moving book. Yeah, yeah.

And there's a lot of books like this, obviously, but it's like, I don't know. I don't, could AI write that? No. No.

And then it's like, and if it can, then it's like, I forget who was talking to this. I was talking to like a TV writer about this. I forget who it was. He was saying like,

if the day AI can write something like that that can make you cry, that means, that AI can feel like humans. It can feel something. And then it's a conversation of like, oh, is AI slavery now? Because they've gotten to this level

where they can feel actual pain and they don't like it. So when you're mean to them, they're gonna feel it. Right, if they get to that level where they can write something like that, you know, then it becomes a conversation about something else. Consciousness or yeah. Yes, yes. And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting.

So it's like, it can't do it, but when it can, it's a different problem. Right. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, I was writing a thing about AI versus humanity. And it was like, they'll never know what it's like to have to try on a bathing suit after the winter in a department store under fluorescent lights. You know what I mean? You can't fake that.

Like, there's that feeling is there are, there's a myriad that's that's even. too small of a word of experiences that they'll never know. They can mimic it and say it off of hearing this podcast and oh, they'll clock that that's a thing. Yeah. But yeah. I just, when you said that I pictured like, I don't know, 20 years from now when like AIs and robots and maybe there's some sort of conflict between humans and I, maybe humans discriminate against robots or whatever.

Yeah. And I could see some conservative human being like, you'll just never know what it's like to overreact. Thanksgiving and broaden your fans like you'll never have that you know like that's the thing we have that's the thing that we have yeah just being gross yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't think it's going to I don't think it's going to I mean we'll see there's I'm sure there's AI comics that people are posting or AI musicians like my father was listening to I think it's I think we're a far away from that Do you think, I think AI as a comedian is hard, but do you think, because I still think a lot of comedy is not what the joke is, it's who's saying it.

So do you think we'll get to a point where AI can get good enough that it's not funny if I read it off the screen, but it's funny if Kevin Hart read it. Right. Could we get there? And if we get there, do we even need writers? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because that seems more plausible to me. because, and I only say that because, you know, whether it's late night or a war shows or whatever,

it's not like every joke is a knee-slapper, but we laugh because we love Conan. We love Conan. Right. Right. Right. Right. And him saying it. Him saying it is funny.

He can Conan Fai it. Right, right. So I wonder if you can, and essentially that's what he's doing anyways when guys like me and you pitch, if he were writing for him, he would make it his own anyways. So I wonder, you know, if this. Is that a possibility? It's about who's saying it. Yeah, like, it could write the scripts,

but we're not going to watch AI actors. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I don't know. Scary. I know. What's even scary is that we're probably going to have the answers, like, by next week.

Like, you text me in movie. I got it. Like, it's happening so fast. It's going so quickly. Like, you don't even have a grip on, like, what do you tell people? Like, what do you tell young people of where to go get work or what to, you know, it's going, it's happening so quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the last two years, hey, I used to suck. When Chatsypity first came out, it was truly like Google 2.0. Yeah. You know, you could do it a little faster. Still gets a lot of shit wrong, though. Yeah, yeah.

Still gets a lot of stuff wrong. Yeah. In Clod, in its philosophy brain, it has a little thing at the bottom that says, you know, I get a lot of things wrong. It's always good to double check. It's a nice, a little humility. Yeah, that's nice. A little humility.

Also, yeah, no liability if you make your own car and drive off the side of the road. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, too much. So are you going to stick in L.A., you think? Dude, I'm like kind of talking about this with my girlfriend right now, but like, I might move back. Where is she? She's here with me, but she got a job in San Jose. So she goes there every other week for three days.

She has like a hybrid deal. Got it. But it's like a startup. So like this job will not last forever because they either run a money or they sell. Right. She's out either way. So she can't like really move with me. But she's very adamant on staying because she likes her life here.

Yeah. I like my life here too. If you're into life. If you're into like life, it's a pretty good play. I don't know as a comic, but is it life? Yeah. But you know, I think as you get older, like, you know, I'm sure you do this in your 20s too. but I just sacrificed everything

for a little bit of stage time. Yeah. And I lost a lot of friends. I didn't go to like some of my best friend's weddings because I was like some NBC showcase that nothing ever happened after that. You know? And in retrospect, it's like,

who cares about that showcase? Like it's not one thing in comedy. Yeah, but you gotta do it when you're just, you got to. And I did do it and I don't regret it, but I can own the consequences of that, right? Like I don't have like... There's a couple I don't, I'm not proud of.

of, right? So I think in my 30s, I just said, like, look, I'm always going to do comedy, but there's like, there are times where I want to prioritize, like, my life, my happiness, my partner, like, because that stuff is, to me, it's all related, you know? The happier I am, the more comfortable I am, the more I can think about comedy. Because if I'm worried about other stuff, I can't even think about writing because I'm worried about other stuff, you know? Yeah.

No, you're right. I mean, a lot of it, I think, is panic and fear, you know, of like, if I'm not doing these things, then I'm never going to make it or I'm never going to do these things. I was thinking the other night, because I was looking at Shang Wang's new special. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm a huge fan. Yeah. And we don't cross paths all that often, but the last time I saw him was like maybe three years ago, maybe four years ago at the Comedy Magic Club. And he was really just having this quiet moment of like, I don't know, like, what's the point of like just doing, like, you have to like do these shows every night and writes and just to get to this like he was talking about the hamster wheel

of it all yeah yeah and he was just and i really felt like oh this is a guy that might quit might quit or might just like not care if uh doing less means you get less yeah and now he's blown up yeah like he's got these specials and really good audiences and all and i'm really be interested to ask him about that. Like what was the shift? And did you maintain it or did you push a little harder? I think the shift was

Ali Wong said, let me produce a special player. Yeah, I would like that shift as well. Yeah, did you just complain to Ali? And she's like, no, I'll take care of it. Maybe that was his pitch and he was hoping you'd be like, let me produce a special player.

Maybe he did that all around town. I was such a sucker. I'm such a sucker. How can I help them out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah, no, but I mean, I do think there's a real value to going really hard, especially when you're young and figuring it out.

Because here's the, as you know, you're 12 in, you know that there was no shortcut to getting to 12 in. Like to get to the point where you feel comfortable on stage, you have to literally, physically, be on stage that many times. Yeah, yeah. Short of that, you don't get there. And every single one counted in a weird way. Right. You don't think about that.

Right. Every one. It really wasn't so many shows. I was like, this is a waste of time. But it kind of wasn't. No. You still felt whatever you did on the way there and whatever happened when you were there and then analyzing it on the way back.

Yeah. Yeah, it all really, really matters. And you have to skip a lot of dinners and leave your girlfriend at the table with their friends. Yeah. He's going to go catch a show. I'm really feeling that one. Yeah.

My worst one was, I was asked to be the godfather of my friend's baby. And my wife had to stand in for me. Wow. Yeah. What were you doing? Opening for Seinfeld. You gotta, though. Right?

You gotta, though. Hey, I left my job for you. You know what I mean? Right. We knew all these things. You got to. Sometimes you got to. Sometimes you got to.

Sometimes you got it. I feel bad about that one though. Yeah. It's sorry to feel a little bad about what you've done. Yeah. But you know, it's not just comedians. People who are like, I think anyone starting their own company, right? Like, I'm sure, you know, we're making fun of Zuckerberg, but I'm sure in the

earlier days like, yeah, he had to just pour everything into it. And that's why he is the man that he is. Like, meta is as big as it is. Right. Because he put everything into it, you know? Let me ask you one last tech. question. I was at the lounge on Sunday flying home, and there was a guy at a table. It's like in the food area. And he was at the table with, uh, look like the apple. Oh, those, uh, what's it called the eye vision or something? Apple vision? Yeah, like the Oculus kind of Apple version of it. And he was just there. And he was doing something. And then I, he must have clicked it off because he saw where the server was and talked to her. Never took them off.

and did the whole thing. And I was like, is that a blind person that's like helping, is this helping some kind of a issue? Or is he just checked out and I'm in a public place and this is how I live?

I think he's being a little bit performative of being completely honest. Yeah. Because the real story behind those things is like, it's not making Apple any money. It was a stunt to be like, Look at Apple. We're making cool shit. Oh, really?

It's not, it's stupid. No one's actually buying it. It's not going to be a thing. So everyone, if you're buying that, you know this. So I think he was just being performant. Like, look at me, I got this cool gadget. Right. I'm going to take it off.

I doubt that he's so into it that he forgot to take it. You can't. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, it's huge. Yeah. It's so big. You cannot forget that.

It's like a motorcycle helmet. Yeah. And you're in the lounge. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the way that it's the, to me, it's like the cyber truck for your eyes. You know what it is. You know what it is.

You can't wash your car, whatever. I see it. You know, it doesn't fit the thing. Right. Whatever, you know. That's funny. The cyber truck for your eyes. That's how I see it.

Yeah. Is there anything we can plug for you? Oh my gosh. Yes. I am, I don't know what this comes out, but I'm starting my tour next week. I'm actually going to Hawaii. Oh, you are. Yes, not the theater, but I'm doing the blue note.

Ooh, that's a good gig. Yeah, so I'm going to Seattle, Portland, Hawaii all next week. That's April 15, 16, 17th, and I'm doing a whole bunch of other cities. I don't know, San Francisco, Sacramento, Columbus, Ohio. Because comedy's first. Comedy's first. I'm going all over, so if I thought I was cool. That's great.

Well, you're very funny. And really, that's why I asked you here. You're really funny. I know you're going to do a lot of great stuff and come back anytime. Thank you so much. All right. Enjoy the bread. I will. I can't wait.

I hope it's good.