Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 33 - This is big!

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

Meet Kate Pepper, founder of Kate's Bread in Ojai, CA. She's an amazing and inspiring artist and was kind enough to let us into her bakeshop! And one of the funniest people on earth, Kathleen Madigan, stops by for a Quick Bite, that's mostly about drinking.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, don't you know? Hey, it's also a show. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I am Tom Papa. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode filled with bread, food, wine, and comedy. You guys are the best. Thank you for supporting the podcast. Thank you so much for giving us all of your good vibes and your good likes and your

stars and your reviews, it means a lot and it helps spread the word and grow our community, which is what this is all about. Thank you so much for all of your pictures of all of your attempts at bread baking and all of your attempts at making some of the stuff that we've talked about, the sauces and the stuff, and you guys are the best. And thank you for, maybe we should just start a thing where we're just called breadheads, kind of like the dead followers, breadheads. think about it. We can get into it later. Today I'm very excited because we have a great couple of guests. We've got Kate Pepper from Kate's breads up in Ohio, California, one of the most artistic breadbakers I have ever met. I've been a fan of hers for a long time and I got in my car and I drove up to Ohio and spent a great afternoon with her.

She's amazing. And we take a quick bite with my good friend Kathleen Madigan. one of the funniest people on the planet. And we check in with her and see what she's eating and how she's surviving during the pan... What have I been eating? What have I been cooking? What have I been doing over the last week or so? I'm not going to spend too much time getting into it because I spent a lot of time with Kate and Kathleen, so I don't want to bog you all down.

But let me just say, if you haven't just broken out, the simplicity of spaghetti and meatballs, I think it's a good time to do it. It's cold out. It is a good nourishing dish and I'm telling you making meatballs is a joy. Some parsley, some chopped meat. You can throw on some pork if you'd like. I rarely do. Some egg, some Parmesan cheese, mush it all together, fry it up in some oil, throw some onions halfway through. when they're ready to be turned, they will free themselves from the bottom of the pan. It's a very easy way to know that you're getting it cooked the right way. Spaghetti and meatballs makes people happy.

And I did it last Sunday. Again, we talked a week ago about the importance of cooking on Sunday. And we had my niece in. She had gotten COVID at college. She's all filled with antibodies. so it was one of the rare instances where we could actually have somebody visit, and I love cooking for her because she's a college kid, and there's no greater audience than college kids. You don't realize or you forget when you were in school how hungry they are and how poor

they are. They just don't have any good, really good food, and when they can actually get it, Oh, she came in and she was like, what are you making me? It wasn't like, what are we getting? Are we ordering out? Are we getting pizza? It was like, please, feed me something. So happy to do it. And she's a meat eater.

So I just cranked out some spaghetti and meatballs. Man, just so solid, so good. And if you have a couple meatballs left over, oh, it's just one of those joyful things. It's like, yeah, it's simple. When you're out and about, do you rarely? You rarely order spaghetti and meatballs. Do it. Make it. Enjoy it. And also, I would like to give a shout out to chocolate and red wine. It is the Christmas season. And we had little treats nibbling around. We had some little nuts and some things hanging around on the counter. And we didn't go really put our

foot on the gas until recently. Actually, my niece was the one who brought over this box of truffles from Trader Joe's. And, oh, I forget how decadent and joyful really good chocolate is with red wine. Oh, you're not going to sleep great that night. There's a lot of sugar bolting through your system. but man oh man is it worth it oh that really says the holidays and especially this year when you're not going around and going to the fancy parties and doing the fancy things making your home a little fancy giving yourself fancy moments come on let's just let's just let's just plot that night out you made yourself meatballs which is not a hard thing to do and you had this great meal spaghetti meatballs, some garlic bread, salad, done. And then there's red wine left over from the meal,

and you break out the truffles, the dark chocolate truffles. There you go. Who needs to book a flight to New York? Who needs to travel anywhere? Who needs a crowd? Who needs a party? I don't. I don't. That is a special night. Cape Pepper, when I started baking bread and started really getting into it. I started looking on Instagram and looking at different bread accounts and seeing what other bread people liked other bread people. And it just, you know, you start going down the wormhole and what this community is. And Kate kept coming up on everybody's feeds. Everybody, everybody's account was linked to Kate. Kate has this little bread shop in Ohio, California.

She, you have to go to her website to order the bread. You put in your orders, not just bread, scones, croissants, yummy goodness. There is a artistic bent to everything that Kate does. I went up in, I've been there twice, I think, where I actually got bread from her, where I introduced myself online. It's this little shop off of the main house

where it's just a bread paradise. I can't tell you how happy I was to be sitting in there for an afternoon with Kate because this little, it's not a shack that's making it seem a little lower than it is, a hideout. Let's call it a bread hideout. Because everything in there is for baking.

The table where the flour stored, the little refrigerators, the oven. It is my dream. space. It really is. You just walk in there and it's like, this is what you would do in here. There's nothing else to do in here, but bake as great baked goods as you possibly can. But the difference is that Kate is the one in there making it. She is a just a beautiful soul. Follow her account on Instagram. You'll see that all of her stuff that she makes, her scones, her croissants, her bread. They all have this rustic, funky, cool, artistic style to them.

They really stand out as their own thing. I've never seen an array of stuff that is so individual and so linked up and so such an expression of the baker that is making it. She is so great. And to sit with her and just kind of like, get into, she loves talking about it, she loves doing it. She really truly, truly loves the history of bread baking, loves the process of doing it. She works hard. She's in there, you'll see from her Instagram, she's in there late at night, cranking this stuff up for all the people that are going

to show up on a Sunday morning ready for their orders to be filled. And she's in there most of the time cranking it out by herself. It is an incredible, amount of work. Baking, running a bakery is a ton of work, and she does it all herself, and it's fueled by her passion and love for it. She's amazing, and you're going to love the interview. You're going to learn about bread. You're also going to learn about the life of this artist. So enjoy Kate Pepper, and at the end, we'll give a quick bite. We will call in to our friend Kathleen Madigan, one of the funniest comedians on the planet. She's just legit, super, super funny, so naturally funny. She's just amazing. You're fans of comedy, so she needs no introduction,

but everybody needs compliments. And I can't tell you how impressed I am with Kathleen. I learn from her. I just, you almost can't learn from her because she's so naturally funny. She's so herself that she can only be her. And anybody that tries to copy it, good luck. You just don't live that life. You're not that person. Kathleen Madigan is special. And we check in on with her. Check in with her. And she gives me some tips on eating on the road. All right. So first up, Kate, and then Kathleen. Enjoy. So nice to be in here. We're really. Really? I'm glad you're here. I know. This is very exciting.

Got to talk real close. You've been doing well. You've been, you haven't missed a beat. You're cranking out a lot of stuff. You're leaving it out on the curb. People are just coming up and picking it up. Joczing it out there. If you want it, you can come get it.

I always worry about it. A neighbor said the other day said, you know, you really have this sort of honor system going here that says, you don't worry. And I'm like, well, you know, I actually didn't think about it. I didn't think that anybody would want to come up and steal a bag of bread. I mean, of all things to go steal. That would be really.

It's not going to be bag of bread. Yeah, it's like leaving the Halloween candy. It's like leaving the bowl. Exactly. Same thing. It's the same exact thing. Yeah, that would be pretty bad. I mean, if someone's into like artisanal bread and they'll drive all the way up here to get it,

to steal at the end. Well, I had a group that did come up and they threatened. And I, because I was, well, I was exhausted. And I just finished working and I was hiding. And they were texting me, texting me, come out, come out, come out. And then they finally wrote, we're going to just take some bread if you don't come out. And I was like, oh my gosh. What?

I'm running out. And they were like, well, we didn't know. We could just, you know, get something. If you still had something left, I said, no, no. No, I don't. So, but people, they get excited. Yeah. No, I would imagine.

I think this business and this product is a very exciting product for people. Why? What do you mean? There's nostalgia to it. There's something that's just sort of like an old thing. we all love it. I think that's like what I was saying to you earlier about bakery business is doing. Bakery business is doing relatively well during this pandemic.

Not incredibly well. I hate saying that as a general term. But relatively so because it's a pickup, you come, you grab your breads and your pastries and you, you know, and you go. And,

you know, and people love to know that they have that in their kitchen, you know? Right. Yeah, you're kind of set up for it. It was amazing when, the fear back in like March, April

when everyone was running out of yeast. Whoa. I was fearful. I was... You were fearful? I was sitting here and I was thinking, well, wait a minute. I mean, if everybody's taking all the yeast and the flour and the everything, and I don't use... I use a sourdough mainly, so I'm lucky that way. But there are certain things. My croissants are a sourdough base, but with it, they have a poolish in them, of course. So I use a little bit of yeast.

And so... But I was... I was having a butter. problem. I couldn't find butter. Oh my God. So butter was a tricky one. So I was going to all the stores, just going to the back rooms and just being like, do you have butter? Who has butter? Who is butter? Walking out with whatever butter I could find from whatever store I could find it from for the croissants. And I was like, I was, did you, was there a moment where you just had a week or so with that no butter? No, I made sure I had it. I was, I was, I was, because I had orders coming in and I was like, no, this is going to, we're going to make this work. And I don't know if it, but anyway, it was, But it makes you troubleshoot too.

It makes you go through everything and think, okay, how can I shift this if I need to? Right. You know, what can I do to make this work? If we can't do croissants, what else do we do? We make a ton of flap reds maybe or we make a ton, you know, we have to shift. And I think everybody's having to do that now. Oh, 100%. You know, thinking about different ways to accomplish whatever they, you know, used to do.

Yeah, everyone's getting very crafty. I know. They are. I had friends calling me up and saying, you better get, you know, pallets and pallets of flour in, you better call and order. And I'm thinking, I'm not sure where I would put it. I'm not like, you know, like, I could do that. And everybody's stressing out about you're not getting the, I'm like, no, I'm going to get my flour. I've got my source and calm down. Yeah. When was, when did you first bake bread? When was the first time that you? That I baked bread. I don't know. You know, I come from, it's actually kind of funny.

My mother is a very, very good cook. And she, of course, is a mother of four of us. Right. And she has made every meal, morning, noon and night from scratch our whole lives. That's what she does. How many kids? She has four of us. Four of you. And she actually used to bake bread all the time. And I remember her coming down to school and she'd bring the big spread of bread and garlic cheese and all this stuff.

She was great. She'd always cater these little things for the school events. That's great. So I came from that. And then she, of course, taught us, you know, okay, when there's a party, you're going to make the salsa, you're going to do this, you're going to like the lamps and we all had our jobs to do. Right. And so we did a little bit of cooking and learned that way. And then I ended up going away for a while to school, of course, to college and traveled a bit.

Yeah. When I came back, I had spent some time in Ecuador, and I came back and I ended up meeting a farmer who lived next door. Uh-huh. And he was an organic farmer and had a CSA program. And I ended up working with him and moved in with him, the whole thing. And for 12 years, we did that. But he also had a woodburning bread oven in the backyard that he'd built. And so we would do bread.

And I started messing around with bread. Right. And sort of getting some books and doing it. And then I started doing a Christmas holiday bake for our shareholders. And then I started doing. a weekly bread share program where I would bake two loaves of bread. Every week you'd get two loaves of bread with your big basket of veggies and your fresh eggs. And it was the whole thing.

It was beautiful. Yeah. It was really beautiful. And so... Was that on a big scale? We probably supported 40 to 50 families. Oh, wow. Yeah.

So not everybody got bread, but it was enough that I was doing two days a week baking. And then, you know, maybe like, I don't know. So I was probably doing about 30 families that I was doing bread for for the share program. Yeah. At that point, though, it was so much work to do the oven by myself. Right. That I started just doing it in the kitchen from a residential oven. So I was just baking a lot in just a simple little oven and whatever.

So when you're baking that bread, was it from a sourdough? No. No, I did a lot of shabbas. I did a lot of basic breads. I was just pulling books out and trying it. And I was experimenting with my customers and just seeing what would work. Did you have a sense that you were good at it already? No, no, no.

I mean, what do you have a sense that you're good at anything? You just cranking it out. I still don't really have a sense of that. I'm not there. No, I'm just, whatever I can do, I do. A lot of it ends up becoming necessity for me. Like, you know, so at a certain point, you know, we're doing that and everything. But then everything sort of shifted and changed.

And I, my life transitioned and I moved out and I'd been with my partner for 12. years and had a little girl and moved out. Right. And at that point, I was like, well, what, what am I, what can I do? Yeah. The part-time jobs that I had at the time being I was a single mother to a little three-year-old. I had to move in with my parents. Right.

The whole thing. Yeah. I had tons of horrible part-time jobs, like a lot of them that were very bizarre and strange. Like what? Well, well, catering for one thing. I'm not good at that, the waitressing. But I was catering.

I was working for my sister's cloth diaper business as a delivery girl. So I was driving the dirty diapers. Oh, no. Driving the clean ones too and picking up the dirties from. I was working down at a little cafe in town and the back line doing veggie burgers and just cooking up those. I was working at a friend's nursery doing plant work, an Australian native plant nursery. You were like the gig economy before the gig economy. Oh, I was like, it was crazy.

And then I was my, and my daughter was, you know, really little at the time. So it wasn't around. And then I then at that point had this idea and I was like, well, I was still baking bread. You know, I still had managed to hold on to a few of my shareholders, my bread shareholders. And I was doing it out of my mother's kitchen. And that wasn't great, going great. So it was just kind of whatever I could, just to hold on to a little bit of what I had been doing. Because I lost everything.

Right. And so it was just losing everything. and starting over. Yeah. And so I decided to go take a course at the women's economic ventures thing in Ventura, which is a business course for women. Right. And my brother at the time was working in Santa Monica at Rustic Canyon.

Right. As a chef behind Evan. And then he then moved over to Milo and Olive and was working there. And so I said, look, would you be able to get me down there? you know, so I started commuting down there, gosh, I don't know, once a week. Right. And I'd stay for three shifts. So I would hit every shift.

I'd get there at 11 in the afternoon and go till 7 and then get the three shift to 11. And then another afternoon shift and I drive home. Jeez. Doing what? In the kitchen doing bread. Oh, really? It was the first time I ever had gotten into a kitchen to work on bread. Right.

I'd gone to a lot of bakeries before. But they all said you don't have culinary background, you don't have schooling behind you. We can't take you into our kitchen. Really? This went on. I had checked out at least like, you know, eight, ten bakeries that said no. Jeez. And was that because of regulation or because they just didn't have faith?

No, just because I didn't. I didn't know. Yeah, they didn't have faith. Right. You're ridiculous. It's so crazy. I mean, how many people are coming into a bakery and being like, please let me work in here? I know.

And I'll do it for free. That's what I didn't get. So, but maybe they didn't want their form. formulas still. I don't know. I was going through the list of why don't they want me? I can't figure this out. Granted, and they, you know, some of them I'd be like, I'm a mother and whatever. And then they're like, oh, your mother with a little kid, that's not going to work out. But my brother, Sam, he had chatted with Zoe Nathan and they were incredibly accepting of the idea of me coming down and interning in their kitchen. And he's a, I'm sorry, he's a cook as well?

My brother is. Yeah. Yeah, he's a chef. And he lives in Colorado now, but he worked for them for a long time. Gotcha. And so I did it. So I went down and I was still working all the other jobs and I was doing the business course. And I was like, okay, I'm going to get in this car and drive down to L.A. You know, every week and not sleep. That's a lot. Try to learn.

Right. And the idea for me was I was planning in my head this business and I thought I need kitchen experience. I don't need bread experience. I need to know how to work a mixer. Right. need to know what a big oven does. I need to do, I need to learn what it means to have a production schedule. Yeah.

All that stuff. A lot of stuff. So you had, you had in your head, like you're cranking it out in your kitchen and you stole these families. I needed yet. But you know in your head this is a direction you want to go. Not necessarily that I wanted to go, but that I needed to go. At a certain point, I thought, this is something I know how to do.

Right. There's potential for it. Like, I can see this actually. My dad did not think so. He said, look, you can give this a try for a year. When it doesn't work out, we'll sell everything off and you can, whatever. And I was like, oh, thanks. Thanks, Paul.

Thanks for the support. So, so anyway, so, but if people don't do this sort of stuff or they're not in the food industry, I don't think that they understand what it, what it means, that this is something that people want. Granted, it's not a product that you can ask a huge amount for, but it's a product that people are going to come back for over and over and over again. Right. They're passionate about it. And it's, yes. And so instead of all of this idea of moving to these tech stuff and moving fast and no, this is a different sort of business that says, wait a minute, let's all slow down and come back to what's really good. That's healthy and that's wholesome and that, you know, feeds you a story and a feeling and all that stuff. getting that idea or do you have that feeling when you go to that kitchen and you're working with

your brother like it was like that it was different it was definitely I had never worked in a restaurant before I'd never been in one in the back kitchen and so I didn't I didn't know I really enjoyed going in there and just watching and they were kind to me they didn't treat me they kind of knew I was just in there for a little experience and I don't think they took it seriously right and I was some extra help so it's like you know and and so I got to see and and and and and so I got to see and and quietly learn what I could in a space like that. And at that point, I was like, okay, I can probably pull something together. It started to make sense.

Things started to make a little bit more sense. And so then I started trying to figure this out. Like, how is this going to happen? Because that is, that is a thing that there is like just the baking of the bread and getting into it being like, yeah, I'm good at this. But like you said, like, how does the mix work? How do you order stuff? It's a different thing.

What suppliers? Like all that kind of stuff is. huge thing, but it didn't intimidate you. No, I've been very slow. I've got a very slow business trajectory. Like, I'm like just every day, I'm like, oh, we'll see if this works. I'm like just slowly go with it. And so because of that, I've had the opportunity to learn.

The reason I'm slow is because I'm a mother and it's just been so much I can do. Right. Being able to try to spend time with my daughter still and, you know. Yeah. But because of that, I feel very lucky that I had the ability to really take things is very slowly in a step at a time to really hone my craft for one thing, which was not very good at the beginning. Yeah.

You know, and really understand, you know, what my orders are and what it takes and what supplies I need to get, how often, you know, timing a big bake is tricky. You're working backwards. Yeah. You know, you say to yourself, well, I have to have this done at 12 o'clock on a Sunday. Well, when do I start? Right. And that's two days beforehand.

Right. And so there's a lot of processes. Instead of, you know, you bake two loaves of bread, which you know. And that's still a process. Yeah. But you've got some time in between. There's things to do, you know. If it fails, no one's, nobody even knows.

Yeah, I hope nobody knows either when I fail on like, no, when you fail, everybody knows, no. When I'm just like, if it's cruised, I was like, oh. Oh, it still tastes delicious. Right. And then you just go about it and you just don't show it off to everybody. Right, right. But when you have people like waiting for you, that's a whole different.

Well, it's intimidating. Yeah. I am not a perfectionist, really. I am not a baker, like a lot of bakers. I see a lot of bakers and they are very particular. Work with temperatures. Right. Are very careful.

A lot of men actually, very much that way, which I kind of, it's so fascinating for me to see. Uh-huh. But very, very scheduled and really hitting temps and really careful about everything. My approach always has been just to see. Right. Yeah, yeah. With, yeah. And with baking, if you're not baking cakes and cookies, you actually have the ability to be a little bit more organic in the way you bake your breads.

And people get scared. But for me, to be a good bread baker, all it takes is time. It takes time to just practice and keep baking and baking and baking with every mistake you figure out that's even better. And like, it's a very organic process. And I hope that people can understand that about. my process and my bread because it's never the same. I mean, every bake is different. Yes.

So it's like. But there's also, there is an underlying consistency. Hopefully. Yeah. That maybe other people think. Right. Right. I don't know if it's fair.

Right. Exactly. But no, I could, I, I've, uh, the reason I was attracted to you from the beginning when I started getting into it and started learning about it. And I had read as something that you had written a couple times on your Instagram, you had posted some stuff that you wrote just about the process of going through and doing it. And that was the thing that piqued my interest was the artistic part of it. Like you weren't beholden to recipes.

You weren't like rigid. And I'm not that way either. I don't have a baker's head like that. But I try and tell people, I was telling my mother this the other day, that bread's kind of in between. You have a little give. Like you can kind of go by feel. It just depends on what kind of bread you want to make. and it's your choice.

Right. And that's the thing. You know, there is no specific thing you have to do. I mean, if you can figure out how to get your bread to rise, you're doing all right.

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. And you can adjust it, however you want to adjust it for flavor or for texture, and it's a game. And it's this ever-evolving game.

And I remember somebody telling me one time, this idea that, you know, as a cook or a chef, you're making an omelet. Right. And it's taking you five minutes to make an omelet.

mess up and you're like, oh, it was five minutes. Yeah. You're making bread and you pull out a loaf of bread from the oven and something happened. And you have to think back two days to figure out where you fucked up, where you messed up. And like, you have to figure out where that is. And that's really like, it's a long process of where you can really mess something up. I know. So you have to become excited at the fact that, oops.

Yeah. It's okay. Right, exactly. No, there is something cool to that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And do you now, when you're going through that process, just that thing, you kind of know along the way when, uh-oh, this was proof too long, or this was- Generally, I would say that majority of problems are going to start with your starter or your leaven.

That's where I find that most things start to go awry if they're going to. So when you mix your leaven, depending on the temperature and depending on how wet you mix it, depending on a lot of different things that can affect the amount of time. So then you're watching from the second you mix that, you're watching it. And you're like, okay, well, I'm going to give that this many hours. Well, by six hours after you've mixed it, you're ready to mix your dough and you're looking at it and it's not right. Then you're like, okay, I've got to push it another hour or not. Right.

Or I've overshot it already. Yeah. If you've overshot it already, well, then you guarantee know that all the bread is going to be overproofed along the way. And you're going to end up with really fluffy or flat bread by the end. It's just what happens. Yeah. So it's a game of like, wait a minute. And then it's hot.

It's 110 degrees outside. And you're like, oh, my God. Oh, I'm going to do this. Or then it's the next day it's, you know, really cold. And you're like, everything's just too cold. And I don't have temperature control in here. This is very much, I mean, once those ovens are on, and you can feel it because I had that oven on. It's hot in here.

Right. I mean, this is a warm. I remember looking at you posting during the summer. It was like during the heat, like during the 120. kind of like touching up against. Yeah. And you just, you were so sweaty. And miserable. And you knew that. And you knew that. And I'm And there was another one. Wasn't there another one where you were like, it's not happening? No, I'm sure. I'm not doing that this weekend. No. There's a certain point that I hit. And I'm like, I cannot, I cannot do this. And people are like, well, you know, yeah, it's so hot. It's going to be hard on you. And I'm thinking, well, honestly, it's not necessarily that I can't do it in the heat.

Yeah. But the bread's just not going to, it's just going to not be right. And it's just going to be a little bit too hard. And then again, I am sweating. I'm going to mess. Everybody makes fun of what I wear in the shop where I get all these comments of things. And I'm just like, look, it's hotter than hell in here. And I've got my elbows deep in dough. I'm working so hard.

So you can say whatever you want. Alone most of the time, right? Always, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had some workers for a bit. Great workers. Yeah. And it was sort of when we were, you know, expanding.

But then when COVID hit, I scaled back and I've been able to do it on my own. So the bakes are all me. I have some ladies that come in in, like, for a couple hours before people pick up to help me pack things and organize. But the bake is me. But they're not baking, yeah. And so it's a process and it's a long way. God. So back to the 11 when.

Oh, yeah. So you have one that you go from or do you have a couple? So I have a starter. I got my mother and I work with her. And I am basic. I'm basic with it. I don't do a lot. Like I have, it's basically it's a, it's a, it's a,

50-50 mix a whole wheat and white and water. So I don't do rye in it. Yeah, I don't do, you know, any of that stuff. I sort of just do the regular thing and then have a really basic starter. Before every mix, I'll make 11. So I'm basically bulking up my yeast is what I'm doing. Right. And so I bulk it up and then I let that sit for six hours or five or seven or whatever it takes. Right. And then that's what I mix into my dough. So, you know, the idea of behind a starter is just that you've got a yeast that you're working with and it's, you know, whenever, I mean, I should say it's not even with the leaven where it all starts. It's really with a starter. I mean, with a feeding of it. And, you know, do you want to push it to its peak and let

it fall before you mix it into your leaven or do you want it to be just before the peak or there's variations? What's, what it, what, yeah, I've gone through, but. Answer the question. You know, it's, I, I did it one way for a long time. Right. I'm not sure I really remember exactly what it was. And then I ended up going to tartine for a few days. I got the opportunity to go up there and work with some of the bakers randomly. And I was chatting with Richard one day. And he was the head baker up there, Richard Hart. And he was telling me kind of when they're using their starter and when they're making their leaven and when they're doing all that.

And their process for feeding and all that. And so I came back. I was like, I'm going to do that now. So I started that process. Sure enough, it changed my bread completely and I hated it. And I was like, this is not good. It had a really tight crumb and it had no flavor. And I was like, what, why did that shift?

Like, why was that? And what had happened was I was using it more on its rise and just as it was peaking. For me, I like it to be spent. It's over the top. It's way over the top. So I'll feed the mother in the evening at around 7 o'clock. And then I'm mixing my 11 the next day at around 10. Oh, so she's.

That's bubbled up and flattened back out. and that's when I used her. And I don't know why. I like it. And is that flavor or consistency? It's more flavor. Density. You know, I find that there's more air in my dough and a more open crumb with it.

But for me, it's more flavor. It's the flavor. I'm not a huge crazy nut about the crumb. Right. Yeah, I know. That became like very trendy. Like, oh, you have to do these big holes in it. Yeah, which are beautiful.

And if you get that, it's a lot of it. It's really exciting. Yeah, right. It's cool. But it's also, then I also get complaints around the house like that you can't put anything on it. You can't put anything on it. There's too many holes in it. Yeah, yeah.

But I think. But the flavor is a big one. And now my sourdough is not really crazy sourdough. It doesn't have that. But I find that it has a lot of layers of flavor, which I really like. Right, right. So like you'll bite into it and it's a little nutty and a little sweet. And then it walks into this sort of.

sour kick a little bit along the way. And I kind of love it. And I've learned to really love my bread. Now, is that consistency in the flavor? Is that because you're, it's all coming from that same starter and that that is, that's not going to vary too much, right? It's probably because it's mine and it's from here. Yeah. Yeah. This is very much a product of this kitchen. Right. Which is why I love bread. You know, I love that bread. I wish people would be excited to eat different bread all over. Yeah. Because it doesn't have to look a certain way and be a certain way.

The exciting thing about bread is that it's very much a product of your community and your town and your home. That's right. And your climate and environment. And that's why it's such a beautiful thing. Yeah. And your heart and soul. Exactly. Because it's work.

You're really paying attention to it. Yes. Yes. And you're really in tune. It's you're a part of it. And that's what I talk about the idea of time and really to really become a good bread baker, it's not about reading a book and what you know and getting your thermometer around, timing everything great. No, it's about learning over and over again what it is that makes

your bread, you know, your bread. And there is a creative element to this and there is an artistic element and there is a scientific element and it's all of that. Yeah. But there's a lot more room to be to play as a baker yeah you know it's so interesting like you come back from tartine and you would think and it really does it's i i always think about it when i was learning to play golf and i like i was managed to like kind of do it yeah it was it was a nightmare and i i managed like to get through games like i could hold my own and then i got uh i went for a lesson and he took it all away and was like you know you're doing it wrong and then you're going to start all over again and i was like no, this is horrible.

Like I have to, and that's how I feel with the bread. It's like you get good at like a certain like three different loaves. Right. Kind of have your idea. And then it's like, do I want to venture into this new world? And then you might make something else and it's just awful or you might end up and you just, it's just discouraging. I mean, I had, it really hurts your pride. It does.

I had a wedding. I know, no, I know. And I had a wedding I was baking for. When I first started this business and, oh, sure enough, weather was 100 and something out. Yeah. And I was relatively new to my space. And I baked, you know, hundreds of loaves that all overproofed and turned out frisbee's in the oven for a wedding. And I thought, I'm done.

I'm done. Like, this is it. I'm absolutely done. And, you know, and then I started, I had two weeks. I had two weeks one time where every single thing overproofed in the fridge is. I don't know why. So badly that I would take them out, loading them in the oven, and I'm throwing the dough on the ground. What's wrong?

Like, what happened? And, like, so mad. And it took me two weeks to figure out that I had put a new plastic thing over the rack, thinking that it would keep the dough from getting dry. Right. And instead, it was just creating this moist, like, greenhouse effect in the fridge and was overproofing all my dough. And it took two weeks before I realized what the problem was. And I was like, do you think you know things?

I know. And then you don't know anything. It's very humbling. I always say it's a lot like stand-up comedy. Like, you can get good at it and kind of know what you're doing, but you can fail at any moment. Oh, and fail really big, I'd imagine. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, instead of throwing the dough on the ground. I think that's got to be one of the hardest jobs out there is being a comedian. I can't even imagine. Oh, if you're not funny. No. Imagine. No, I mean, just have people staring at you like, yeah, didn't really go so well. But it's interesting, you come back from Tartine and you would think, like, you know, that's like, that's like mecca and you're going to, oh, whatever they say must be right.

But no. No. No. And that's what's so exciting about it. And it's like, and it's also deciding who you're going to listen to and what you're going to learn from who, you know. And like there are certain people that, you know, well, Crystal down at Wayfar Bread in San Diego. She worked up at the tartine.

She's lovely and she's got her way of baking. And Richard Hart, who opened up, you know, his bakery in Copenhagen. And he just makes me laugh. He's hilarious with this baking. He'll sometimes just take a handful of salt and throw it in a mixer and be like, yeah, and he's more. And you're thinking, well, that's what you like to see. You like to see that experimentation and that sort of, playing with what's going on.

100%. You know, you go to bakeries and oftentimes we have our product. So we have our system and we have our formulas and they're predictable because that's what our clients are wanting and that's what our menu is. Right. So it's fun to go to different places because you then can find, well, I really like that right over there and I really like this product over here and I really like and you piece together kind of what you love about these baked goods and you can come back to your place.

and be like, well, this is what my minions is going to look like. Right. This is how I'm going to piece this together to be kind of, you know, my bakery and my cool stuff. Right. There was one time when you had in one of your videos

where you were like, you were like, and you just took this water and just threw, you were like to dry and just, and just poured more water on it. I was like, well, yeah. Well, that's the thing. You don't know if that's 50 grams or 200 grams. Well, you don't need to know.

Yeah. That's the thing. And like, that's what's, but I start out generally, I scale out regularly like 70% hydration. Uh-huh. But it always ends up almost at 90 or more. 90 or more. Something because I hand mix.

Right. Because I hand mix, it's a lot easier to hand mix a ton of dough that's really hydrated than it is to mix dough that's not hydrated very much. That's why I do a wet dough. It's all loose. It's all about easy and being lazy. Right? Just to keep your arms alive. So for me, if I'm scaling everything at 70% initially, I put the flour in.

Not all flour is the same. So you're going to get a bag of flour that might take more. more hydration than another bag of flour, depending on the harvest of the wheat. In the same mill under the same label. Exactly. It goes, I mean, this goes all the way back. So you're getting a, you know, a wheat that grew during a rainy season and it had whatever, and it's going to be milled differently.

And it's, so your flower is going to hydrate differently every time. You can't go by, oh, it has to be this formula. Yeah, it was 300 grams last time. Right. You have to go by the feel. So for me, you start with your general thing. and then you move on from there and you see how it goes. And that's kind of the nature of it in here.

Let's see how it goes. Oh, man. Oh, man. So when you, when you, where were you at when you were cranking out a lot of bread for people where you were like, all right, I'm kind of in it now? Like, you know. When you brought in this oven. So I brought in the oven, which just recently I found out it's a lot older than I thought it was.

Oh, no way. I thought it was from 1980. That's what the guy told me. I found it in an alleyway in L.A. And it didn't work. What do you mean? You found it in an alleyway? Because it was really hard to find a deck oven to put it in a residential area because of the amount of BTUs that it takes of gas.

I don't understand those terms. But so I searched and all of the ovens that were big enough took way too much gas. And I didn't have the line to bring it up. Uh-huh. And so all of a sudden on Craigslist, I stumble across this thing, and she's a bute. When is this? Oh, God, this is when I kind of started the business. I had to have been maybe seven.

This is the oven. This is the oven. Oh, yes. There's never been another oven. Right. Seven years ago? Eight years ago? I don't know.

Something like that, like eight years ago. And I went down to L.A., you know, my dad's big truck. Yeah. And talked to the guy, and he said, look, I don't know if it runs. I've never tried it. And it had two broken stones in it, but he said, look, I'll give you three months to try to get it to run, and I'll give you two new stones. And if you can get it to run, you're good. And if you can't, I'll take it back. So I thought, well, it's just my time, you know. In addition to that, these old ovens, if something goes wrong in these ovens is just the burner. That's all it's got is a burner. So that's only about $300 to replace a burner, which is pretty cheap.

Yeah. So you're spending the money on the big, massive, cavernous thing. Yeah. It was about $1,000, and I got it, and I brought it up here, and we got it going. And so he's like, it's from 1980s. It was like a pizza oven. They used. So when I was having problems with everything a few months ago, everything was falling apart, the oven was having a problem. And so I had this guy come up, who's this oven guy.

Yeah. He had to have been in his 80s, I think. Oh, yeah. He was an older man, and had been doing this, had been working with ovens since he was like 17. And he said, you know what? He says, I got to tell you, this is the oldest oven I've ever worked on. And I said, are you serious? This is the oldest oven.

Before 1960. So I'm like, wow. Like, I'm working with an old oven. It's not a fancy oven. And it's not a bread oven. And there's no steam injection in this oven. And there's no anything. This is a real bare bones.

There's no steam in that? No, I don't bake with steam. Oh, no way. No. I don't. Really? I thought about it. You know, I could be putting every single one of my

loaves in a Dutch oven and sticking it in the oven. I could be squirting bottles of water in it, you know, all the time. I don't see the point. It's too much time and energy. Pizza ovens aren't built to hold steam. Right. They, so because of that, even if I try to shove as much water in there as I can, it's not going to hold it. So for me, I just decided this is the oven, this is the bread that is baked in this oven, and this is what we get. Wow. And that's great. That's it. That's it. That's what I've been working. But I'm able to bake the sourdose and all my pastries in it. So I mean...

Yeah, no, I'm going to admit something because, you know, I love seeing the pictures, especially when you put everything out and you're like the bake for whatever and you see it all. I was like, man, and the one thing that would kind of keep me keep myself a steam up

was, well, she's got a big steam oven. No, I don't have anything. Now it's just me. It's just you. Generally, it is. You know, what do they say about, you know, a poor somebody blames

his tools, you know, like, it's always us. So, yeah, I, I would love, I would love a, I would love a, a good bread oven. I would love to, well, I would love to see what my bread would do in it. Yeah, the only thing I worry about with that, though, is that they're so technical now,

and they're all computer-based. So, like, for me, I had a problem with this. The guy came up with a little thing, and he stuck it in a tube, and he's like, to-da, your burner works again. I was like, ooh, and that was it. burner. That's it. But if I've got something where I'm dialing in like, didl, all this stuff, and then the computer goes, poof, and whatever, and then I'm spending millions of dollars to fix my oven, scares me. That's, yeah, that is scary. And you don't need it. You're

cranking out good stuff without it. I'm doing it right now. If I was able to get a bigger space, I'd get a better oven. I would definitely get a better oven. Yeah, but this is a good mentality. It's, it's better to, like, outgrow what you're doing to the point where you just have to. Yeah. Then, like, go chase it. Exactly. And also, to know what I'm doing, you know, to learn this way so I know. And it's like, well, actually, you know, like, you don't need, you do need a lot to get something going. But I've managed in this space to be very thrifty. You know, people say, well, why do you shape your, your loaves, like your batard loaves and couche fabrics the way you do? Right. Well, it's because cooch fabrics are cheaper

than getting baskets, for one thing. And they also, I can fit more bread in my limited refrigeration space using the cooch fabrics and the baskets. So there's reasons why my bread is a product of my space. It's a product of my limitations. And so that's how I work. Right. Yeah, you just made it work. Just you have to make it work.

Like I said, my business was just basically a business of necessity. It was a get up and figure this out. And just go. So that's all your refrigeration. I have, I've got two here. This one I use for proofing or retarding, excuse me. And then the one behind you, which I have to shut with Velcro. is made in California.

But yeah, it's a racket. It's a roll in rack fridge. So I can fit maybe... Got it. I mean, I can bake off about 80 sourdose. 80. In a bake. So, limited.

So you're always... But you're always sold out. Oh, yeah. I'm always sold out. I'm pushing my limits. Yeah. So I pushed them pretty far. You're at the max of what you're going to be doing.

Oh, I'm at the max. If I could bake more during the week, right now I'm only doing two bakes. That's about four days of work plus a fifth day of the week, which is supply runs and getting everything. So it's a five-day work week. Right. And the work, the, the bakes themselves take a significant amount of time in hours.

Right. When you're by yourself. So it's hard for me to fit in like a third bake during the week unless I have help. Because what are you doing? Like from when you start. I usually start, depending on the bake. Start shaping.

I usually will start my mix at around 2.30 in the afternoon. So in the morning I wake up, I scale out all the flour. I get my 11 mixed up. I prep everything I need to prep. I'll have a couple hours off before I come back in to then start mixing at 2.30. I'm usually shaping probably around 8.30 or 9 o'clock at night. And then I'm usually up until it can be between like 1130 or 1 or 1.30. I'm up working and to be done, shaping and finishing up.

And then I go to bed and I wake up. I'm usually back out here at 3 or something in the morning. You just went to bed at what time? I know, right? 1 30? It depends. But it depends. Yeah.

So usually a bake is a very long... And then, so this is what I'm saying. It becomes very funny. It's like, so when people are like, why is she posting a video eating bread at like, you know, 4 in the morning? Because I've been up. Yeah. Things are getting weird. I was getting really weird.

So I'm really weird right now and I'm just hungry. And so that's what I'm doing. And then I'm trying to sell it. So this is a cottage food business. This isn't come up to my door and get a loaf of bread. This is like I'm only open between these hours. So my Instagram has become an essential part of selling for me and letting people know when I'm available, when I have bread available, and what I'm doing.

And so that's why it's all gotten to be very humorous to me. Are you running the website and the orders and doing all that? Yeah, oh, God, I do it all. I do the whole thing. I do everything on Instagram, everything on the website, everything. It's hilarious. Yeah, that's, yeah. Just that part is kind of maddening to think about, like, getting the orders and making sure these people are...

I had a guy, Chuck, he was great. He came in, like, years and years and years ago, and I said, oh, I wish I had some way of doing, like, orders and whatever. He left, and then he called me up. He says, I built you a website. So there you go. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's great. And so the website's been brilliant. And he moved to Washington, and I can call them up and say, hey, look, can we get another order thing up?

And then I understand it's basic, more basic. So I understand how to do it. When the COVID hit, we had to shift it a little bit just to make it work. Yeah. But no, it's all me. And it's funny. It is funny. Like, you need somebody that's like just doing that part so you can just bake.

So you can just do your thing. So I'm working like, you know, trying to figure out, okay, if I expand, what are the things I have to do? Yeah. To expand and get, you know, like, you know, how do you build a bigger production schedule and how do you, you know, divvy out jobs that need to be done and things like that. If you were to keep good. I mean, this place would have to be baking every single day. It would. It's hard because it's on my parents' property. Right. So I have to be, I have to be careful about how many people are on this property and what happens.

When we were doing our pizzas, it was getting to be very busy. And it was almost, I mean, it was almost hilarious how busy we were. Oh, really? You just started? We were doing pizzas on Sundays after the Sunday bake and, you know, pizza people come up and we had tables set outside and they'd get sourdough pieces. We'd offer veggie or meat. and you get what you get, and it takes forever. And, you know. And people were showing up, yeah.

They were showing up, and people are just laughing. We're shoving pizzas out the window, and, you know, but there's lines, hundreds of people coming up, lines out the drawer. Oh, yeah, it was big. Wow. And so the Sunday Bakes became a really big thing, and then COVID shut it all, you know, down. And so now I think the way it's set up now is much more appealing to my parents

and their property. Right. we're not going back probably to what it was until I can find a bigger space to expand. They were like, okay, this is a restaurant now. It was getting to that point. Yeah, we're getting to that point. I know. It was like, and I didn't know what was happening.

So I was really, I was losing control over what was going on and I was so tired that I was like, Thay. Just come on up. I'm making something. And it was just as you know, it was delirium. It's so cool because, I mean, this space is so perfect. I mean, it really is. It's a great space.

It's a beautiful space. space. It really is. I feel lovely working in it. It's got a very good feel to it. And it must have been a nice thing to like slowly, like you said in the beginning, like you slowly were making your way. So when you like add that I'm going to do croissants, which is huge.

And then you need a sheeter. That was a big thing though because you can't make, you know, people, people forget. Bread is, it's a funny thing because, you know, you can go down to the coffee shop and spend, I don't drink coffee. so I don't know, but a decent amount of money on an espresso or whatever or something. Five bucks. Five bucks. Let's say five bucks.

And it takes a second to whip it up and you take it and you swing it down in a second and you're like, okay. It takes us two or three days to make bread. Yeah. It will last a family a week. It's sustenance. Yeah. And we can't charge probably more than $8 for a loaf of bread.

Yeah. So to make money on bread is really hard unless you're able to. to mass produce that bread. So to supplement, croissants are brilliant. And you can make some money on croissants if you have the tools to do them. And so croissants have become a big thing. And they are a lot of work. They're a big process. Oh, yeah. But if you can do them, they're so damn good. Yeah. And people love them. So it really does contribute. You can charge more for what it is. for what it is. And so croissants end up being a very valuable part to a small bakery, I think, or any other

pastries of sort. Bread's not going to be a big money maker for you. Right. But bread's a big draw. Yeah. So if you have good bread, you bring people in, but you're not making a lot of money off good bread. Right. Right.

So when did you start bringing in the croissants? I don't remember. Like, were you a couple of years in to just do, were you just doing bread for a while? I was doing bread for maybe a year, and then I started doing croissants by hand. And then that was, so at that point, I was like, here we go. I'm like, really. And so that was, that was tricky. That's really tricky.

How did you learn that? I just figured it out. I mean, like, pull out another book and be like, oh, how did they do this? Yeah. And then, you know, going, I haven't really learned much when I've gone to places. Like, I've learned a lot about kitchens, but not necessarily about my product. My product, I really believe, has been very much my own experimentation. Right.

different formulas that I found that I like through different books and things like that. But then I, you know, I was doing the croissants and I thought, well, if this is going to be anything, I need to get a tool. So the laminator came in. Right. $5,000 for this thing. And I was like, I'm going to just do this. Yeah. And it's brilliant.

Oh, my God, after doing it by hand? These are great tools. I mean, I love my tools. Yeah. I really do love it. I'm like, oh, I got that. That was, you know, I had the money and I, you know, everything I've done is, been very methodical and like, okay, you know, do I, can I do this? You know, and I had saved the money,

and I was like, I'm going to get the laminator, and I did, and it's been, and it's a space saver one, and it's small, but it does the job. How many croissants are you making in a weekend? In a weekend? I don't know. I don't even know. I want to say probably a couple hundred croissants or something like that, but variations of it. Right. I love that you don't know. I have no idea. I mean, at a certain point, I don't know what I'm doing. Really? I do like that. No, there's something to that. There's something to not adding it up and just going.

It's like, if I've sold it, I've sold it, I've got to make it, and it's out the door. And then I'm like, got to sell it again. So it's this process of this never ends like making the bed, you know? Yeah, yeah, right in it at night to then remake it in the morning. And it's just, that's what this job is. And for some people, that would be hell. For some people, that would just be the worst thing in the world. But I kind of love it.

You still love it. You know, I was an art history major in college, and I did art stuff. And I remember reading something somewhere about somebody talking about art as, you know, true art is about creation and destruction. And it's about the idea of the cycle, the cyclical process of creating something for it then to either be put out into the world or given away or destroyed and rebuilt. And that if it's just created and just held in this one thing, it loses its appeal. And that's what this is. This is constant creation and then we eat it. And then we bake it again and then we eat it.

And it's this. Yeah, and you move on. And we just keep doing it. And I kind of like it. I kind of love what food is to people. I'm a big food fan. Where are you at now in your critical thinking of yourself and what you're making? Oh, I always think it's not great.

I mean, sometimes I'll have a day that I'm like, wow. Yeah. I nailed it. I don't know how I did it, but I did it. And, but, you know, most of the time it's like, in this space, it's either you wake up and you get good bread one morning and bad croissants or you're going to wake up and get good croissants and bad bread because one takes warmer temps and one takes cooler temps. And so I am in this constant flux of how do I, you know. And so that's, so it's, it's just a game. Yeah.

It's just a fun. No one's complaining. No, I do sometimes. Yeah, you're complaining. I'm complaining. but the people who are eating it aren't. Generally, it's all right. And like I say, you know, I kind of, it's like my stuff's beyond rustic.

It's like it's gone way beyond that point. Now it's just sort of wild and feral. And it's like I create feral pastries and feral bread. That's a good way to describe it. It doesn't have that perfect look and doesn't, you know, but it's good and it's dirty and it's there and it's thick and it's and they're big and they're just, you know. So we started doing these cinnamon rolls that people love and that was just extra croissanto. So it's like instead of throwing the dough in the trash, I'm able to use it and make $180

off of it. And I'm like, and they're delicious. And I'm like, why didn't I do this earlier, you know? So it's just about. Which one is, which one's on your mind right now? Is it like that's that you're playing with need to tweak that's got you a little frustrated maybe or excited? Right now, you know what's, my favorite one is the ham and cheese croissant by far.

I hate though that I can't make an episode. money off of it. Yeah. That's a hard one because it's expensive to make. And it's hard to ask more than $6 for a croissant, but it's got to be seven. Like, I'm struggling with that one. Yeah. But as for like, what I'm struggling, I'll tell you what I'm struggling with right now is

the limbo that we're in with everything. And because of that, I have a very specific bake I do. And it's the same product every time. Right. And I put it in a bag and I put it in the road. Yeah. And instead of being able to have that creative, And because it's just me, I don't have time to be like, well, I'm going to make experiment with this.

I don't have time to experiment. I don't have a crew in here baking what needs to get baked while I focus on other things. If we were pandemic free, you could have some people come in and you can do the thing. And, you know, we're getting there. But again, this is a small business. It's really built around one person. And it's, you know, to expand would be brilliant just to be able to have that space and have the ability to bring other people in and train. them or teach them or have them bring in their skills and kind of keep the food flow going and be

creative. So it's a lack of creativity at this point just because of our situation. Yeah, you know, it's so funny you say that because I've been feeling the same thing just like with writing. Oh, yeah. It's like you're able to kind of like, all right, we're going to adapt and then we're going to go, we're going to do it this way. And now 10 months in, it's like, all right, I've learned had to do it this way. Right. But we're not really moving forward. Nothing's going on.

Yeah. Nothing's going on. There's nothing going on. It's really hard. And it's, we are just having to just sit and just keep going, pressing through, which is fine and maybe it's necessary for us.

We have no choice. We have no choice. That's what we're doing. But it is a little bit like, oh, I didn't realize, I didn't realize that I was that sort of person. I didn't realize that I actually enjoy the adrenaline of what this business is

and the, the people and the moving forward and the constant creation of stuff. And that's sort of been like, oh. No, it's a whole other element that's missing. I mean, it's like me not going on stage. It's like when I came in here the first time and there's a line of people out the driveway and they're all giddy as I was. And it's like, oh, I'm coming in.

There's excitement. There she is. And there's all the flower. And this is the shop. And there's like an electricity. It's like there is. Yeah, that's missing. I get it.

Yeah. No, it's kind of bizarre. I get it. But it's... But you're still cranking out great stuff. I'm still doing it. And you know what? I'm making, quite frankly, I'm making a little bit more money now than I was before just

because I'm doing it all myself. Yeah, yeah. So now as we move, as we move into the holiday season, do you try stuff? Do you do like a stolen or any kind of those like weird reds? I would love to. Yeah. It's hard. Like, like, I do like, I.

For Easter, I usually do a hot cross bun, which is a beautiful hot cross bun recipe from Tivory Road. I don't know if you know them. Anyway, phenomenal. Yeah. And but to do that, it's as almost if that's all I'm doing. And I don't have the space or the ability to do all the other products that are needing to be done. Because it takes over. It takes over.

So I have to decide, well, am I going to take this day to just focus on this? thing and then take another day where I focus on this thing, you know, and have different days where I'm baking, well, you're going to get these breads on this day and this croissants on this day. So I just don't have the oven space to be able to bake off what I want. Yeah, it's limited. It's a very limited situation. Do you mess around with rye? Not often.

I do rye in our pizza dough, like when we do pizzas, I always throw rye in that. It's a powerful flower, isn't it? It's a very powerful flour, and I love it, and I'd love to do it. And I went, I've done some rye breads. And then I was in, when I was in Copenhagen, I was visiting a good old friend of mine in Copenhagen. And then I stopped in to see Richard. And he was, we were talking about a bunch of the, of course, the Scandinavian rise, which are beautiful. Yeah.

And really amazing. I've been fantasizing about it during this pandemic. Oh, yeah. I'll just have my iPad. I just keep looking at Copenhagen. Oh. I just. I loved it.

I absolutely loved it. It's beautiful. It's the most beautiful city. And people are so friendly. Yeah. And they're just, it's amazing. I'm dying to go back. Yeah, bakeries are great.

I didn't get to see Richard's bakery done. Oh, no? No. He was in the process, so he was working out of a greenhouse over at Noma and working through. And so I was able to go see that, which I felt really lucky. I was like, oh, this is an amazing thing to be able to see Noma and kind of what they're doing. Yeah. So it was beautiful.

My good friend, she gave me one of those old, the old Scandinavian bread slicers for rye bread, which is basically almost like a, what do they call those things? Guilotine. It's like, guillotine almost in a way, kind of. It's just this big, big thing. thing and you stick the bread in it. I've got it up in the corner and you push it down and it is the coolest bread slicer ever. But rye breads are so dense that they can take that sort of, you know, slicing. But I'd love to do some rye. Yeah. I messed around with one a couple of weeks ago.

I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe, I used mostly rye and I couldn't believe what that was. That was like, forget it. You're not even shaping it. Oh, no, no, no. It is very little gluten to it. Yeah. There's nothing to it. And that's kind, there's nothing. And it's very tricky to work. And you have to, with rise, I feel like that's one of those sort of, you generally are going to get a dense loaf. There's very little gluten in it to work with to keep any sort of structure. So, you know, it oftentimes. But it's a beautiful, it can be a very beautiful loaf because of that. And it's a very old grain that is lovely to work with because there's just the history of it, you know.

And so, you know, what people have used it for in a lot of these, a lot of these colder, you know, countries and places where they've got their rise and they're, you know, because it grows so well in the cold weather. Yeah, those dark black brown bread. Yes. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It was amazing.

Yeah. I love that you do that too. You seem to be very interested in the history of bread baking. I love it. I love it. The photos that I'm finding are I absolutely love. Yeah. I love seeing that the process hasn't changed that much.

And that's what's kind of cool. Not only is the process not changed much, but people's appreciation of it hasn't changed that much. Although I do have to say, this whole gluten. free movement, especially here in Ohio. I was worried when I first started my business. I was like, why am I starting a bread business in Ohio, California? Of all places, you know, everybody's going to be like, oh, I can't eat that, we can't eat that, we can't eat that. I'm just like, whatever, I'm just going to do it. And they'll come back around. And they'll come back around. And sourdows are great for that, you know. They're great for gluten intolerances.

Yeah. They're fermenting for a long period of time. So they're a healthy bread for that. And it's the old way of baking, which we so far got away from. So to look back at it, not only the history of it, but also to look at bread all over the world, I would love to travel and just check out everything I could to go to spend time. I mean, I am a man from Peru. He recently had texted, or it was a little bit ago, and he has a bakery down there. He came to visit and lovely guy, and he sent me this video of this man, this Peruvian man up in the Andes with the most massive stone, stone mill, but a stone. split in half, grinding and milling this wheat that had been winnowed by horses that were just running on the wheat in circles.

And I thought, that's what I want to go see. Like, I would love to just go everywhere and see how people are making their bread because it's special to those places. Right, exactly. And that's what I love about it. Have you visited where you get your flour? You use central milling, right? I do central milling. I haven't visited anything.

I, yeah, I go up. That would be cool just to see that. It would be really cool to see that. Right? It would be really cool. When I lived with my ex actually and we farmed, we grew wheat one time. Oh, yeah? So a few acres of it.

Wow. Did it work out? It worked out, but it was very hard to process. Oftentimes people, you know, there's this whole new thing about, you know, needing to get into more local wheat and grains and all this stuff. And the issue isn't the growing of any of these grains. Generally, the issue is going to be in the processing of the grains. And so processing places are hard to come by and hard to find.

So when we grew it ourselves, I was out there with the sight just knocking it down. And then I got it and I bundled it, dried it. And then I had to, you know, stomp on it. And then I took the big fan out and I started winnowing it. Oh, my God. I ended up with maybe 12 cups of flour. So then I got the wood out and I'm filling up the bread oven. And I'm like, I'm going to bake it wood fired and it's going to be sourdough.

And I was like, 12 cups of flour. And I was like, this just. That was like three acres of grain. And five months of work. I know. There's certain things you're like, you know what? All right, I see this process, but I'm going to buy this. Exactly.

And there are people that do that because that's their job. And you have to appreciate that. God bless them. God bless them. God's their place and what they're doing. And there's tools and they're set up. But I would love to check out different mills and to check out flowers. And it'd be fun to be able to just get out and really kind of see what people are doing all around.

I was really interested. I went to Gristent Toll. Oh, what did she think of that? Yeah. It was a cool little shop. And they're very well known for having all of these different. And I, in my mind, I've just always carried, oh, this is all wheat that's coming from around here in California. That's natural to this environment. And that's why you go there. And when I got to speaking with him, it was like from everywhere.

That's a shit. I didn't know that. There was stuff in Cincinnati. Maddie, there was stuff in like Montana, there was stuff in Utah and California, because the smaller places that are growing that we, it's not that big of a moneymaker where they can do it consistently. That's the thing. That's what ends up happening. So these smaller growers and millers aren't able to actually survive off of what they're doing.

And that's why it's hard to really start focusing in on these different sorts of heirloon grains and all these things because people. they can't make a living off of what they're doing. Right, exactly. So, and there's also, like, certain cross-contamination issues with, you know, joint production places. So if you have a bunch of different small farms that want to get one place to do their, you know, their cleaning and their processing, there's all these other things that happen. So it's really hard. But there is, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that they got from so many different places, though.

Yeah, I was pretty surprised. And it was cool. It was like, okay, but it really. You see like this model, and it's the same thing with meat production and all of it. It's like, how can you get that chain to sustain for everybody in it, the grower, the manufacturer, where they're always making money. It's a hard one. And, you know, like, I always felt that same way. I know a lot of farmers in town because we farm for so long.

And that idea of, you know, these farmers are not making a lot of money off of their stuff. And it's the restaurants that are pulling in the majority of the money off of what this produce is supplying. and it's kind of a bit of a warped system that way. Yeah. When it's that ingredient, that produce or that product that they're growing, that's the root of these extravagant meals or these things. Yeah. And they're getting, you know.

Well, they don't have candles and booze and all the rest of it. And that's what it's all about. So that's the thing. So exactly. I know. When you start your pizza thing, if you were able to, if you could sell alcohol, then you're really in a big spot. I know. Well, I've got a dream.

I want to expand the damn place. I want to find a place in town. Oh, yeah? I do. It's just so expensive in this town. I can't. It's like it would be a $2 million project. Yeah, I know.

And it's really hard to figure that out. And, you know, so it's, I mean, I've got the, I'm out. I got the work ethic. I've got the ideas. Yeah. It would be, it would be amazing. It would do really well. It would do really well.

But it's just getting, you know. You've got something special. It's fun. It's a fun thing. And I think people appreciate it. And I like it. Yeah. Like I say, I have fun.

I mean, everybody makes fun on my Instagram. It's really, it's all just humor to me. It's the best. It's like I just make a joke. It's like a joke of my life. It's like, here I am again. I'm doing this again. And like, it's like, you know.

And so it's all just a joke. I'm laughing as I'm posting. I'm like, oh, look what I just did. I know. I know, but there's something that takes it over. Yeah. Well, there's something about the work that I genuinely enjoy doing something crazy like this. I love it and it's, you know.

Keep doing it. Don't ever give it a second thought. I honestly don't have anything else I know how to do. So at this point, this is it until I dropped dead over in the corner because I haven't slept in two days, you know. But there's something strange to the process where like these years kind of tick by. And I have friends that are like, I'll hear every once in a while because it's comedy and bread is basically what's filling up my Instagram. Which is hilarious. What a strange combination. I know what it makes sense.

It really does make sense. But when I'm in here, I think the same thing. I'm like, what is going on? Because there's something, but there is something that you just get obsessed. Like, I don't even think twice. Like people are like, you're posting bread, you with the bread, the bread, the bread. I was like, well, yeah. Of course.

Why wouldn't I? This is me. Right, exactly. This isn't like something. And you're so involved in it that it makes sense. You're like, I'm so into this. Everybody's going to be into this. Right, of course.

I mean, why aren't they not going to be fascinated with this little thing that I made? Yeah, this thing that I just found. Yeah, why? So you just live in your own little head. No, I know. It's weird. It's weird. Maybe we're just weirdos.

We might be. I definitely would maybe say that about myself. I think it's a special sort of person who bakes bread. There are bakers of all sorts in the world. But I think a bread baker is a little bit different. Right. I think it's a little bit, a little bit off-kilter. Yeah, they're a little weird.

Yeah, a little bit strange. But it made me laugh when the pandemic hit, and then it was bread. It was so everybody wanted to make bread. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, this is crazy. I know. See how long they all last. I was curious, and I don't think they're doing it anymore. And I, well, there was this man in town who's a lovely man, Franzlitz, and he gets a lot of bread for me.

He loves my sesame ring. You know, my sesame ring is this, it's really good. I don't say a lot, you know, my stuff's my stuff, but the sesame ring is basically just our old pizza dough and it ferments for like five days. Oh, wow. When it's left over and we didn't sell it. So it was like, oh, I've got this dough in the fridge. So I started just dipping it in, you know, water and sesame and sea salt. Oh, wow.

And making it into these rings. And they're phenomenal. They're just phenomenal. So Franz loves them. He just loves them. He'll buy like, you know, 12 of them when I make them. And, but he's great. But he is a writer for the New York Times.

He does certain things. and writes for certain stuff. And so he had come up and he was doing this article because of course during that time it was all about sourdough and everybody's going crazy. So he was doing this article for the New York Times about a sourdough library. This guy collecting all these things.

And it was fascinating to me. He was telling me the story about these guys in the Klondike when the gold rush, you know, the that was going on. And these miners would head out there in the snow and they'd wrap their sourdough in the scarves around their necks. and they would keep the sourdough with them, you know, all the time because it's how they made their griddle cakes. So, like, they, and they would in their, you know, wrap it in their scarves.

Amazing. And I'm thinking, this is incredible. And then, so he's telling me these stories, and I'm thinking about all these people during the pandemic panicking. Yeah. And, like, they're, like, hoarding, and people are, these people that were posting, they're like, I'm drying all my starter, and I'm going to send it across the world. And so they're drying their starters, and they're bagging it up in little bags,

and they're mailing it to everyone. And everybody's like, well, wait. And I'm thinking, you know, wow, like this is, this is hilarious. So basic, though. It's so basic. It was like everybody went straight down to like, yeah, here we are again. Back at the bottom. We got to make the bread.

That's what it is. I know. Bread is at the bottom. It's so funny. I had to see these mason jars of starter in my refrigerator. It was like, it's gold now. It's like valuable. Well, that's what I thought was funny about these Klondike guys.

I'm thinking, you know, they're there out there searching for gold. And they're sitting there with this gold on this. neck, you know, this like pouch of sourdough where they can eat whatever, you know. There's a character in a lonesome dove. Oh, yeah. Which is the same thing. This guy, he keeps it in his satchel, like a leather bag. So great.

And he would make the biscuits in the morning and the pancakes just from this. I'm going to start walking around with a sack of sourdough. Pot dough. Pot dough. Yeah. I don't know why. Oh, I think that's brilliant, though. Making it in the pot.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. They always had it. I think that that's going to probably be the next new thing that happens. We're going to see people walking around. it. Man, I don't know what the next step is.

Do I try and destroy my grill outside and put in like a wood burning oven? Oh, you should. Of course I should, right? I think you should do it. Why would you not? I mean, that's ridiculous. It's funny, but there's things, like my brother has one of those Trager grills or whatever they're called.

I don't know what they're. Those like smokers. Smokers, but I was in Colorado. He's in Crested Butte. And it was colder than hell. God. Oh, yeah. Wow.

Beautiful, but cold. And so I was making, I told him, I said, look, I need to teach you how to make these savory pies because they're so good. And I said, you'd make a killing out here. He's the chef. I said, you just start a little pie business out in Crested Butte in the ski season. He didn't make a killing. So I'm showing him how to do it. So I did all the lamination for the puff pastry where he made these pies.

And I was going to put him in the oven. He says, no, let's go put him on the grill outside. And I was like, I can't do that. You're not going to bake him in a grill. He says, no, you've got to try this. So this Traeger grill, like stick it in there. It just baked up these little. pie so beautifully. I was like, that's amazing. I'm curious if you could do a loaf for bread in that.

Something like that. Like if you could rig it up in that way. I don't know, but it was pretty amazing. I mean, I don't know. I took a long time ago I did a hike. I did a camping trip out into the CESPi because my goal was I'm going to bake bread out in the wilderness. So I thought this is what I'm going to do. And so I packed up my bag. I had a couple guys that were going to come with me. One of them backed out. He didn't mean to, but he was going to be the one that was going to carry the Dutch oven. So I strapped the I got the Dutch oven on my back and I got everything

in and I've got my starter in a jar and I've got all my stuff I need and I go out there and dug a pit and burn for like two days and then we just put the bread in the Dutch oven stuck it in the lower sort of pit covered it with hot coals. It baked the most

beautiful bread I've ever made. Really? And so I think to myself, I'm like, wow. Like do you really need you might not need everything you need. You don't need that big steam oven. You don't. You just need a goddamn pit in a Dutch oven. You're fine.

It's amazing. But I just, I always, I like putting myself in those situations where it's like, well, I wonder. I wonder if that's going to work. And it may have just completely been a disaster, but it wasn't. I mean, I had to hang my leaven up in the tree at night. You know how you do, you know, bear sacks because of the bears, so you're like, you string things over the big limbs. The bears can't get it. So I've got this bowl wrapped in like something and it's hanging from the tree.

And I was like, I almost wanted a bear to get it. I thought, ooh, that'd be a fun story? Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. Bear with it. It's covered in my starter. It didn't happen. But it was a beautiful bread.

I was really impressed. So, yeah, so I bet you should build something out your back. Yeah, I know. If you're into bread, I know. You should do it. I should totally do it. I know. To make pizzas.

Pizas. You can also do slow roasted things. You know, you make a real, do flat breads and a slow roast pork. There's so many delicious things. I know. Man, you made a sandwich the other day that was like, it was bigger than my head. It was so good. You just kept putting more and more stuff on it. It was so delicious. It was like, oh my gosh. And you just keep going and you go and go, oh, the sandwiches. I think I'm going to, yeah, I love the sandwiches. He's a sandwich for every occasion. I know, well, you know, there's going to come a time where I'm going to have to come and just work with you during a bake. Oh my gosh, yes, you can. And just hang in here because this place is like, it's hilarious. If you love bread, this is like this is sort of, yeah, this is. kind of a funny, it's not your typical bakery. This is a bread shop. Yeah, it's a bread shop. It's a bread shop.

Exactly. Yeah, it's not, we don't have anything fancy going on here. Yeah. This is bread and croissants, and that's what I pump out of here. And it's a, it's great. It's great. It's fun. Like I said, it's just all a process. Everything's a process here. I think that's what, as you're saying it, I think this is what I love about it is that it's all for bread. It's all for the great, like the, the table and the sink. Well, everything, piece together that way though. And like, you know, I talk to a lot of people. In looking for a new place, I have a lot of people saying, well, you could do it here,

you could do it there. And I'm looking at them on, but a bread kitchen is very specific. It's not just a kitchen. No. So to go down and get a place that's already got a kitchen in it, then I'm thinking, well, I have to rework the whole place. It's easier to build one than to do that because, like, you know, all of this was stuff pieced together.

But like, I got the laminator and I needed a table. So I was like, my dad's got some guys at his show. shop that weld, so they welded me a table for it, you know, and like the sink, that was $200. I got the sink and this walk-in refrigerator for, I think, a total of like $700

cash down at this Dutch guy's place in Ventura. He's crazy. And he said, sure, so I, you know, and it was great. So everything was just sort of this piece thing, you know? You feel it. It's like an organic shot. It grew. Get this butcher block? Oh, this is a beautiful piece of wood.

Where'd this come from? I'm not sure where, because I got it, and I don't remember where. It's like some Mayan Wood Place in Ventura or Oxnard. And it's a big piece, and it's just one of the most beautiful things ever to work on. It's so great. When I went and did this show, and I met these bakers in New York. Oh, yeah. And they'd been there forever.

And they make it like the right way. Yeah. They're like, it's an Italian bakery, and they've been just doing it for years, the right way. Their tables. have like indents. Oh, I'm sure. They're like, they've worn down. Oh, see, I love that.

I know. So, like, you go out into the, you'll go out into the woods out here and you'll see the rocks and you'll see where they've been, like, the mortar and pestle sort of idea of when the Native Americans used to do the acorns and stuff. And, like, that idea, I mean, that's amazing and a table. Oh, my God. Yeah. No, it's the best.

Okay, thank you so much. This was amazing. This was fun. Yeah. I didn't think it was going to be this much fun. I know. I know. I know.

You do? Okay, good. I had no idea. I didn't know what you were asking me to do. This is it. No, it's fabulous. Good. Perfect. And you have some stuff here that I'm going to eat and I can't do it on mic, so I'm going to end the show. Yeah, all right. All right. What do you say? We check in with Kathleen Madigan. Let's give her a call and see how she's doing in the pandemic, what she's eating, how she's living. I love Kathleen Madigan so much. Let's give her a call. Hi, Kathleen. Hi, Tom. How are you?

Well, you're interrupting my viewing of Alabama snake on HBO Max, but I stopped it, even though we're getting to the good part where the preacher murders her by making her put her hand in a box of rattlesnakes, but that's how much I like you. You're the best. I miss you. Yeah, I miss everybody, as it turns out. Turns out I hate people, but I do miss them.

I know. It's such a weird feeling. It's like, don't you find like at like noon you're like, oh, I guess I'm done for the day. I don't have to go anywhere tonight. That's nice. Yeah, you know, nap time. Nap times come early, but I don't really need a nap because I don't have a show. Right.

So I guess that. Basically, I've just bled quite comfortably into my parents' lifestyle. It's really true. We're all like, we're all semi-retiretile. Yeah, now I know why my mom and dad when I called, I go, yeah, we got nothing. I know when they get so excited when the mail comes. You know, I'm focused on some idiotic detail that like in a busy life would mean nothing. She'll just go on and on about somebody not having their mass product program.

Mom, that happens everywhere. It's not, but that's all she did that day. Yeah, right, exactly. I know. I literally know how many steps it takes from my desk to my bathroom. Because it's the only place I've got. But for people like us that have never, like, I've never been home more than, you know, three weeks in roses.

I've been 23. So it's been kind of a treat. I don't want to say I'm having a great time during a pandemic because other people aren't. Sure. But I am enjoying, you know, and all the house things I say. said I would always do and I don't have time to do. I've done them. Yeah.

I've really exceeded my own expectations on myself, which are minimum, very minimal. And isn't it strange, like being home for the holidays? Like, I've never been home all of December. I'm like, I'm going to put up some more REIT. You should see. Well, I may, I don't put my brother's house on Instagram because we usually have a competition.

And I just had to lay down swords this year because he got COVID so he was home from work. So he got even, and he was pretty sick, but had enough energy to outdo me. And I thought I was really outdoing him. I am never home. And now I was home. I can go to Lowe's every day, Pat. Every day. They know me by name.

Hey, Kathleen. Hey, bye. You need some more timers? Yeah, the ones that are just to dawn if you could. I don't like those other ones are too hard. So great. How are you eating while you're home? What are you eating?

Way better than on the road, that's for sure. I've lost like 10 pounds because, like, well, how can you lose weight when you, because the other people, I don't know, I guess, because I don't eat as late at night because I'm in bed. by 1030. I know. Whatever time my most recent cult movie is over, I'm done. Or my Hallmark movie.

Like, I've eaten way better, way healthier than the road. Real food. It's not like, you know, even when you're on the road and you eat something, you're like, oh, I'm going to take the healthy choice. You don't realize, oh, it's packed with butter and salt. Well, and it's also 1130, and I'm going to add. So I'm going to eat this cassidia with Chuck Martin and act like that didn't happen. And I'm like, well, it's just chicken.

No, Kathleen. It's chicken on top with mayonnaise, top of with guacamole, in bread. It's terrible. But that's like the healthiest thing they have left at that hour. I know, I know. That part when you're on the road is so hard. I know. when you're in the 20 minutes left in your set on the late show

and you're just thinking your words you're still telling jokes and in your brain you're saying don't eat don't eat we really shouldn't eat where are we going to eat you go eat that's right or I just keep thinking what time did the Marriott say their bar closes meaning they have food there too like a full-service Marriott a courtyard I know the food's closed but you can still grab what you know crappy wine or whatever yeah um chuck's gonna get really mad at me if he can't get a steak that's another thought that runs through my mind on stage right if i'm with it midnight and a martini he needs both like he's not just okay at applebees i am he's not right

well look i've located frank steakhouse and uh total experience kathleen really chuck What's your go-to chain when you're on the road? Usually it's Applebee's because I don't know why. They're just always, I can't say it's my favorite. I'd rather go to Red Lobster, but that's really fattening. Yeah. You just stop after the cheddar biscuits. Just leave after that.

And Lewis gets so angry. I cannot believe you eat that crap. I said, Lewis, watch how you use that word. crap. Have you had this stuff Fowner? It's great. I know. There's a reason it's everybody's first fancy date night. There's a reason

there's a million of them. The first 99,000 didn't suck, Lou. That's how they got to own that millionth one. In time square, just to shove it in your face. And I love Cracker Barrel if it's daytime.

The daytime is Cracker Barrow? Yeah, I don't see it as a night to place. although a bunch of them did get a beer and wine license. I don't know what kind of beer, and I really don't want to know what kind of wine, but I know that some of them have it. What is your drinking strategy been when you've been home all this time? Well, well, I try to go, I'm not going to drink anything until five, but then I think, well, that's not right, because I wouldn't do that on the road,

because I would have a show. Right. So maybe I should go to eight, but I'm like, yeah, but if I was on the road, I'd be up to a one, and I'm not. I'm going to bed at 10, so that could be moved back three hours. So, yeah, I haven't, I think because this is so weird to us, I haven't lost my mind at all, like I've really enjoyed the time, but especially because there's, seasons here because I'm not in California so like I've never got to see all the seasons since

I've been a kid and it's been great yeah yeah I like it so that's good that's good you make me feel good because I because there is that thing there is that like we wouldn't have done this unless a global pandemic hit like we would be up there every weekend going super hard and there is a little part of me that feels guilty about being happy to be home with nothing to do Because I know when it reads boots we're going to start up again, but there's that little inkling of performer in me that's like, that doesn't want to allow myself to enjoy the time. Not so much on this end.

I'm pretty good with it. Turns out I could be my parents right now. Yes. Are you going into retirement? Well, I would love to. If I had enough money, yes. I would totally do that. But the other thing is, like, if you think about it,

I'm enjoying this and I don't even have contact really, because going to the bars and doing the things I normally would do for fun. I don't even have that and I'm still enjoying it. Right, right. If you let this be normal life, I see no need to ever work again. Oh, you're the best. I can't wait to see you. It's not just the work too, though.

It's usually the media thing. I hate, I don't hate it when I do it. I like it when I do it, but I hate knowing I have. to. Yes, I know. The shows are fine. It's all the other crap around the show. Like, and I said, here's the thing though.

Like, I was talking to Ron White and he said, no. Well, he goes, don't you, he goes, I don't really particularly feel compelled to be on stage. I said, me neither. Like, I'd love to go to Seattle for the weekend, but that show just interrupts my fun. Like, I'm having a lovely time. And then there's a boat you can take all around the islands of Seattle. of Seattle, but it leaves at five. Right.

I have to be on stage. Yeah, I have to take a nap. Be over there at seven. Oh, it's great. Well, I'm glad you're so happy. It makes me feel better about the whole situation. Yes, I'm having a lovely time. So is Ron White.

So is kind of Lewis Black. Those other people speak too frequently. And Chuck, he speaks. This is right up our friend Chuck Martin Dally, because he really hates people, and now there's a law that he can't go around them. This fits right into his whole personality. Stay home, don't talk to people.

He's been living like that his whole life. Oh, good news. The FedExman's here. I've got to go. Okay, great. Love you. Bye. All right, everybody, that's it.

That's our big show. Thank you to Kate Pepper of Kate's bread. I can't wait to go back and work as an intern in her bread shop. And thank you to Kathleen Madigan. Thank all of you guys for subscribing and liking and starring and enjoying your life. That's what it's all about. We'll see you next time.