Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 35 - Apollonia Poilâne

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

This week we fly to Paris and enter the Poilâne bakehouse with Apollonia Poilâne. She not only leads this legendary bakery but also has a new MasterClass 'Apollonia Poilâne Teaches Bread Baking' And we get a Quick Bite with the great actor and food lover Greg Grunberg.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey! sourdough. Hey, it's time for Breaking Bread with Papa. Hey, don't you know? Hey, it's also a show. Hey. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I'm Tom Papa.

So good to be with you in this glorious, glorious new year. Everyone's filled with hope that we will pull out of all of the darkness and troubles and strife and get a vaccine put in our butts, and we'll all go on to better days. And I wish that, of course, for all of you. Thank you so much for being a part of our weekly feast, comedy, and food feast. I really enjoyed hosting, and I enjoy that you come along.

Make sure that you subscribe. If you haven't subscribed, that really helps. And also give us little reviews, little stars wherever you can. Just put them in your notebook. Put them online. Put them on iTunes. Put it wherever.

On the YouTube, wherever it is that you listen to us. Make sure that you spread the word and we'll keep growing and keep doing great things. We have an amazing show for you today. We have Apollonia Poulon, who is a part of, of bread royalty. She is part of the Poulin bakeries in Paris and London. She comes from great, great bread heritage. Her grandfather, Pierre, started the bakery in 1932, when he decided that he wanted to create these breads like he had when he was a child, the idea is these giant big round meesh breads, these giant, like, take one of my loaves that you see

me post and double that. I'll also, I posted a picture of their breads already, and I'll do it again so you can see it. But the idea was to give people the ability to buy this one giant loaf of bread, and then they could live off of it for the whole week. And at first, it was probably a little controversial. People didn't understand. It's all great things. Usually, that's the story of a lot of great, innovative ways of putting things out into the world and eventually it catches on. And it's what she continues to do. Her father and mother took it over. And then she took over the bakery after they passed. And she's just a delight. She has a new master class on bread baking. If you don't have masterclass, this might be worth signing up just for this. She is, she takes you through all of

their different styles of the way they make stuff in their bakeries. And then you get to learn. And I actually made one of the giant breads on my own following her recipe before we spoke on today's, on today's interview. And it was good. It was weird making a giant bread. It was weird making something that is so massive, but it was great. And it did last for a good week, and we did eat all of it. And then just when I was done eating it, she was so sweet after our interview, and of course, we hit it off. She sent me a whole big gift basket, box of polon, pastries, cookies, breads, arrived literally on Christmas Eve. It was such a treat. We were getting ready for Christmas Eve, getting ready to do everything,

and then these giant, beautiful bake goods come all the way from Paris. And that's what her father did, I believe, is that he moved some of the bakehouses close to the airport so they were able to export and spread their bread all around the world. And it got to me in sunny California on Christmas Eve. She's a little Christmas elf is what Apollone is. She's so great. I first became aware of her, as I mentioned in the interview, in Daniel Leeder's book, Living Bread, which is this great book on bread baking. And he would talk about all these different great bakeries and great bakers. And Apollonia is, was a part of it.

And I was really intrigued because they show her in her bakehouse. It's like the same bakehouse that you go down these little steps and there's this wood-fired oven and it would just seem so romantic and so great. so that this podcast has led me to her directly and she sends me this bread and we're becoming friends and then we open up this whole nether relationship and I get to go to Paris one day and go and meet her and see these shops. That is why we are doing this, right? That is what breaking bread is all about. You open up your hearts and your minds and you share some food and you make a friend and if you hit it off, you hit it off and I think we hit it off and I will

be going to Paris as soon as I get a vaccine in my butt. We also have a quick bite with our good friend Greg Grunberg, a very talented actor from Heroes and Star Wars and a whole ton of things. He was a guest on the show earlier in the season, one of our first guests, actually. He's so great and big and gregarious and fun and loves food. And I figured who better to have a quick bite with than Greg right after the new year and see how he fared, see how much weight he's gained, how much joy he had, what did he eat, what went on in his life, in his house with his friends and family during the holidays. And we'll have a quick bite with him. Always great to check in. He's the best. What have I been doing? What have I been eating? Well, the last we spoke, we talked about, of course,

the Feast of the Seven Fishes, which was very exciting. Then we rolled into New Year's, and it really becomes a bit of a slog towards the end of the holiday, doesn't it? When you're just staring at all of the gifts and all of the things that were given to you, we've gotten wine and bread and cookies and pastries and more bread and candies and candies, and they're just all hanging around. And you could just keep eating them. You could keep eating every one of them for the end of time. but then you would end up with diabetes and you'd be five you'd have to you'd be poor because

you'd have to go buy all new clothes it's uh at a certain point you got to pull the rip cord you got you got to you got to call it quits and uh just turn it down just a hair and that's what i did over the last couple of days i was like all right if the cookie starts if you could start seeing the butter coming oozing out of the cookie it's just gotten to that stage. It's time for it to go. And of course, you know, eat a little on your way to the garbage, as we always do. But we got rid of a whole bunch of sugar, and that's okay. That's all right. They all did, they all served their purpose. They brought a lot of joy. There's still a little around. There's still somebody delivered chocolates. There's still stuff

if you want to break down and go. But at least, that's the only way I cannot eat it, by the way, is if it's not in the house. And it's either eat it or throw it away, or it can't be in the house, or I'll think about it all day long, and then I'll eat it, I'll find a way to cheat against myself and go grab another whatever.

But yeah, I have friends that go completely dry in January. They don't drink and they don't eat sugar and they really detox. I'm not, enough with the extremes. I can't go to that extreme. Will I cut back on the wine? Yeah, maybe a little bit. I don't know.

I don't think red wine is a problem. Will I bang martinis out every night and end the night with a nice lagaboo and scotch by the Christmas tree? No, that's not happening every day. But it was fun to do it for two weeks straight. But yeah, I think red wine continues to stay in the diet. I think just eating real foods, not eating a lot of sugary manufacturing. processed stuff that just, there really becomes no thought when at that point. And I think that's the only thing that I'm going to do is dial back and think a little bit, be a little more thoughtful of

what I'm putting in my face. I'm not going to stop putting stuff in my face. Last night, I had elk from my good buddy Joe Rogan. I grilled that up outside. It was a cold night, went outside, just got some steam broccoli on the side of this beautiful elk. My dogs were both circling around me. Frank the pug is not allowed to eat it because he's on a strict diet to clear up his bladder stones. Bella, on the other hand, knows that she doesn't have a problem, doesn't go to the vet, very healthy, was like, we're not both on this diet, and she was right. So I snuck her a lot of elk on the side when Frank wasn't looking. It's very easy to fool Frank.

He's got big, googly eyes and ends up staring off into space a lot. not the not the brightest uh i got a cool gift for uh christmas for my daughters i got a mortar and pastel the um you know like the big clay pot like a pharmacy thing with a pastel pastel pastel pastel pastel and uh you mush the mortar into the pestle. Pestle? I don't even know how you say it. The big mortar thing, you know, the big jug, the big when you don't have, when you live in a time when there's no food processors and you mush it all in. And then just happened to look at food and wine last night before I was going to sleep, as one does when he's faced with nothing but bad news on his absence. Like, well, let me just, food and wine won't give me a reason to stay up staring at the ceiling.

And there were all these recipes. It's how you make guacamole. It's a good recipe that you can make using this. Or you could make a nice pesto, take the basil and your garlic and oil and just go to town and mush it all up in there. So I'm anxious to use that. And it's a big item, big heavy clay item that's out on the counter. So either you use it or you lose it.

But I'm excited for that. Going to turn down some of the big things when we spoke last. We were talking about make something big. Go lasagna. you go big, make something big and fun. How about small and simple? Small and simple, but continuing to cook for sure, because it's one of the only things really to do right now.

So keep baking the bread, make yourself some kick-ass grilled cheese, make yourself some great breakfast sandwiches. That I gave bread to my pals Gil and Risa, and they have dialed in the breakfast sandwich with my bread. Ooh, they've got it down. the right amount of cheese, the right around an egg, little baby arugula. Oh, they, they bake it and then send me pictures like, why aren't you doing this with your own bread? But I am, I am. There's a lot more

toast, also to get into. I also saw this recipe for, it was, what was it? Oh, was pecorino cheese and mint and afava beans, which really doesn't really play, because spree. is really when those fresh ones come out. But yeah, there's so many different elements. I think that is where I'm going to put a lot of my focus. I always have the bread. It's always around, you know, avocado toast, ricotta and radish, different things like that, sardines, all those different combinations to have something really good and basic and then have a bowl of it. And then for your kids just roll in, take the bread, put it in the toaster. Pop that up and they already have the thing, they just have to spread it and eat it, and it's healthy and good for you and

delicious, that's what we should be doing. That's how I should be living. When I eat the elk, I eat alone. When I make the toast, everybody eats. All right, well, what do you say we jump right into it? Because this is a good, it's not a, it's not a gigantic interview. We don't go forever, but it's nice and it's a good serving. I'll say that. It's a nice, good serving. you're going to love her. She's such a great voice. So good to talk to. You learn a lot. Again, go to masterclass and look up her bread baking class. And you also get this downloadable book with it. It's really pretty great. And then we will have a quick bite with a good friend Greg Grunberg. Enjoy. Thank you so much. It's nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too, Tom. I've been baking bread for, I guess, about, about six years or so that I started discovering it and having my life be overtaken by the craft of baking bread. So I was very aware of you. And then before your master class came out, which is amazing, by the way, we'll get into that as well. I first saw a picture of you in Daniel Leeder's book, Living Bread. And then you thought, I need to build that 100 ton oven and bake breads in my backyard, right? Oh, my God. I know. Yes, that is 100% true. Whenever I see somebody with an amazing oven, I just, oh, I cry.

But there's this beautiful shot of you looking in the oven with the peel. And since I read that book and saw you, I've been thinking about you. And the biggest thing I think about is that you, they mention in it that you eat a, you eat sourdough toast every morning with your team. I do. This was pre-COVID though. Right. When you could be with a team. Exactly.

So every, so at the bakery, we have this tradition of having breakfast amongst the teams. just after we've opened the store and the first orders are fulfilled, we sit down and we share coffee, tea, experiences, laughters, and fun moments. And we toast bread. We've been toasting bread together for the past 18 years. That's amazing. So there's a lot of times when I come in now, and I'll come into. before I go on and do my radio show, it's very early in the morning,

and I think, well, Apollonia's doing it, so I'm allowed to do it. 100%. And it's not just me. It's not just me, the teams across the stores. So we're with you, Tom. And I found in Los Angeles, I found this little shop, this little cook shop that has this imported French butter, which I should have brought out so I could have the name of it. That was, that changed everything, too.

having this butter that comes directly from France with that bread. Oh, my God. What a nice way to start the day. Now, you've been doing this since you were a child because you're third generation in this bakery. Third generation. My grandfather started Puellaire in 1932, where on the left bank of Paris in the heart of Saint-Germain-Depre.

And we, and he started baking this traditional French, sourdough bread, these big hugs of bread that would feed your day, not only because people ate more bread, but also because they couldn't afford to waste it. So having a big bread made for a loaf that would keep longer and, you know, work on methods that would bake a bread that stains a workers' day. My father took over in the 70s, structured the family business, And I took over in the fall of 2002, barely 18, on a year off before I went to college. My parents unfortunately passed away in an accident. And I was pushed at the head of the family business a little sooner than planned.

Yeah. Now, were you, did you have in your mind you were young, but at that time were you thinking you would go into the family business? Absolutely. So that was always, no, no, yes. That was always the plan. That was not only with that all was the plan, but I was taking a year off before I went to college. So what happened was I was working in the bakehouse in the mornings and literally from one day to the next. Instead of going down to the bakehouse, I went up to my father's office.

Wow. Yeah. I've read that story where you sat at the desk after this tragedy and you're like, well, now I have to go to work. this is this is just the way that life has unfolded and and you've done an amazing, amazing job with it. But you went to Harvard when right before. Well, so actually I went afterwards. So when, um, so I took over the family business over my year off in the fall of, um, 2002. And I had been admitted at Harvard. So I had basically 10 months ahead of me to decide what I was going to do of my, um,

college admission and Harvard being Harvard. I was like, well, let's try. And four years later, I graduated with a degree in economics. And I feel incredibly blessed by my friends, my colleagues that all supported me in that journey.

And just being young that even if you have a few hours less sleep, you can absolutely survive it. I know. It's amazing. I have a daughter that's in college now. And the thing I'm so envious of is just the energy. Oh my God, yes. And the student body and being confronted to ideas to people who are passionate about things.

You wouldn't even dream existed. And I think that was something that really echoed the way I grew up, where I, in my families, well, with my sister, our parents really pushed us to be open-minded and hungry for new experiences, for learning new things. And I think that helped me develop my understanding of my craft at that intersection between cereal grains, grains, and fermentation. And in whether,

during the apprenticeship system where we really emphasize the five senses, or my most recent book where I offer methodologies of how to bake bread in a way that echoes the way I work at the bakery or in the master class, where I explain how to bake bread at home, I really try to give my readers, my viewers, the feeling, the sensations, the sense of touch, taste, smell, the sounds as well of bread baking. And all of these things make for that complete experience, that sensorial experience of baking bread. You really do capture it because, look, I have been, I have a stack of books over there of baking bread. I have them in my kitchen. I have, I'm in it. I've been, I've been digesting this stuff for a long time now. And yours is

exceptional. It really, to take a subject that I've been really into and digesting and then to have a new appreciation for it that you've opened up in both of these, I mean, the book is great. And the, hearing you, hearing you in the master class, is such a treat. It's such, it, the five senses thing, aspect of it really resonated with me because it's, it is an immersive craft. It is something that you are, as you move along, how it feels to you, or the timing of it,

the intuition of it, all of those things, I felt like I was just kind of, it was happening to me as I was learning, but I thought it was just me that was experiencing it. And then to hear you with even more experience kind of actually explain. Validating your, yeah. Yes. Yeah. And you know, the good news is that, well, first of all, thank you for the compliments, because what you're saying means that I've done a few things right to really convey

how things actually happen at the bakery. We train our bakers for nine months to learn how to bake our back. are batches of 50, 100 loaves. And they, the apprenticeship is all about attuning your five senses, getting to learn how to greet different seasons and different weather conditions and learning how to adapt and learning how to build that mental library of experiences

and situation meets gestures, meets consequence. Right. I love the, yes, gesture. I love that term gesture. I haven't heard that. I haven't heard people use that in any of the baking. I really like that because it is. It is this, it becomes a part of you. It becomes a part of your identity and what you're pouring into it. It's, it's, it's, my wife likes to bake and is, is into baking like in precision, like cakes and pastry, like that kind of thing, which I was never really into. I was more into cooking. But bread seems like it's kind of the in-between where, yes, it is measured.

Right? But don't you feel like it's a little more artistic? You have more play. Absolutely. And I think, and you nail it. It's exactly that. It's that balance between, on the one hand, a very artistic craft. And on the other hand, a sense of precision because you just can't.

And it's that dialogue. that makes for the perfect loaf. But it is a balance, and by nature it is thus imperfect, and you needs to be fed and nurtured. Yeah. So I baked your wheat loaf last night. Okay. Sweet.

Good job. Not bad, right? I tried to get your pee in the scoring. I don't, it's kind of close. You did pretty well. Good for you. Pretty good. Now this, I have to say. How did it do on the knock test? It's good. It's got a good little knock. Pretty good, right? I'll come in. Now, when I use the same amount of flour. Now, I followed your master class and then also the great part about getting the masterclass. It also has the cookbook download. to it as well. So you can kind of slow it down. You can get the feel from you about how you to do it,

but then you can actually sit and have the measurements out and all the rest of it. But this is the same amount of flour that I put into two loaves when I'm baking on my own. Really? This is a lot. This is a giant loat. My kids walked in this morning and said this is the biggest bread you've ever made. You know, like, so about in the 1900s, an average French person ate about 900 grams of bread per day. Wow. And they made such big loafs not only because you needed to feed yourself, and that was

probably your main source of nutrition. Sure. But it also because when you have such a big volume, then you can keep the bread long, because it just has more surface for the air to make its way through to dry it out. So there is, you know, the volume and the density and all of those factors are also important in the taste and in the keeping of the loaf thereafter. Now here's my question, though. When I was shaping it, I put it in the bowl and let it rise. and then when I was shaping it to go into the basket,

it was already a pretty massive size. It was pretty large. And you said in the instructions, like it should be about an inch or so below the rim of the basket. But I actually, I don't know if I screwed up, but I started out. It was kind of filling the basket already. All right.

Well, if that's the case, then just try a bigger basket. it so that you can have, I mean, well, I mean, the one thing you don't want is for it to go overflow, right? Right. It wasn't that it was overproofing. No, no, no. I entirely trust you. I really think. So, so I, when I tested recipes, of course, I have all the material I have in the baking.

I thought, okay, that's great. I have the professionals experience. What would I do if I don't have any of this material? So I started using just a simple kitchen colander. And then you can, of course, you know, there's different, comes in different sizes and shapes. So you're looking for a mesh one that will not be too, too small so that it can fit loaves and avoid having the issue you ran into. So I'm only half joking when I say and get a bigger baskets. And if you don't, then then just, you know, just let it rise either in a bigger bowl or.

or just on your, in a linen or cotton weave roven cloth. Right. Yeah, I just kept an eye on it. And I just, rather than let it go for another two hours, I put it in a little over an hour. And it worked out fine. But it was so, it was really like, oh, this is the, because your bread is legendary.

And it is legendary for being that size. So to have like this bigger, even Ken Forkish, who has this great bakery in Portland and he has fame here in the U.S. He even mentions your bread as being these bigger loaves. So it was very exciting, I have to say. When I pulled this thing out last night, it was like, oh, wow, it actually is. And you know, and what's great is that you clearly have the baking experience that you're not afraid of just saying, go all adapt, because I know how to do it. And I'm not afraid of trying. And I think that's another lesson about baking is it's a sensorial experience that you must go through and test and try over and over and trust that in the process, you're learning more than what the frustration of a less perfect loaf comes out on a given day.

Yeah. No, you have to, it's, it's really, what's kind of scary is when you learn something and you get good at it. Like, I'm good at making certain types of breads. And then if you branch out and go into something new, it's very humbling. And then you're starting all over again, right? Yeah. It's like learning anything new in life. It's like you got to kind of, you go back to being a five-year-old child of like not wanting to make mistakes or be embarrassed.

Yes. You know, that echoes so much. When I started working on my cornbread, 100% corn flour, I really felt like I was just starting from scratch all over again. And testing and trying, tasting, until I finally got to that right balance. It was, yeah, it's quite a great experience. And you're right. Bread baking is humbling because at the end of the day, it is what the dough, what before that the grain has to say. And it's different depending on the time of the year, the season, the weather conditions.

Right. Your voice is so great, by the way. You should have a master class. You should do more. It's just so nice listening to you, I have to say. Thank you, Tom. Okay, what do you say? We take a quick bite right now with our good friend Greg Grunberg. Let's see what he's been eating. Let's see how he's been living. He's a great guy. We were doing these great shows in L.A. together at the Woodshed where we were able to come in and bring us tiny audience, but it was really fun. And we were like, oh, this is the way we're going to come back. This is how we're going to bring back live comedy to Los Angeles. And then, of course, Los Angeles got even worse.

So they've been put on hold a little bit, which is a bummer for a lot of reasons, but mostly just because I don't get to see Greg's lovable face. So let's give a quick call on the phone and get our good pal Greg Grunberg on the line. Greg, happy New Year. Happy New Year. How are you? Good, man. How are you?

You know, hanging in there. Good. I can't believe I was just saying. saying to my wife last night. She's like, what happened to the Woodshed shows? I'm like, we can't do anything. Yeah. We're afraid of even being with five people at this point.

Yeah, we just did a New Year's show. And yeah, and I hosted it. And it was these mixologists that, you know, you buy a drink kit for 150 bucks and you get all the alcohol and everything and all the ingredients. And they hired a DJ and they hired. and they hired all these cabaret singers, and then they hired me to host it.

And I was like, okay, and we shot it at the building, and Brad had these cabaret singers come in one at a time in front of a green screen. And even that, I was like, I don't want to go in for that. Yeah. I don't even want to. No way. I mean, New Year's, I went in on New Year's at 9 o'clock,

and I sat at a table, and they had these cameras already set up, no one behind them. And they had like three or four people in the control room, I didn't feel comfortable. I was like, you know what, Brad, I'm going to do the beginning here, and the rest I'll do from home. It's a Zoom thing anyway. Why do I? Right.

Yeah. Oh, it's so crazy. Well, we'll get back. We'll get back. Yeah. We're clever. So how did you do? How were your holidays?

Isn't it funny how you actually, you know, without traveling, without doing too much production work, it still felt like a break where you could just sit around and eat and drink? Yeah, absolutely. And my son came back from, you know, college, LMU, you know, which is right by real close. Still, he came out. Yeah. And he fancies himself a chef. So we're like challenging each other. And the smoker got so much use, I will tell you.

It was incredible. What was your best one? Well, I do a, I do like a 17-hour brisket. Oh, my God. Which, yeah, but that's where you go to sleep and you have nightmares that your house is going to burn down because you're literally smoking meat through the night. I mean, when can you possibly, where could you possibly adjust it where you go, all right, I'm going to put this in the smoker and 17 hours later, it's going to be dinner time. Like, that doesn't happen. How big a piece of meat?

It's a nice size. I mean, we have this market out by us and it's like a small local market. So I went out and I'm like, all right, I got the boys. The thing is you know it's a problem when they don't go into the case and they go back into the back fridge to get your meat. Put it over the shoulder. Yeah. And you hear, like, you hear what sounds like rustling cattle. And you're like, wow, this is a big piece of fucking meat that guy's getting for me.

Oh, my God. Did you nail it? Was it after 17 hours? Was it? Perfect. Falling apart. Really? Yeah.

It's almost like chip beef at that point because it's. Yeah. It just falls apart and the juices and the last four hours I wrap it. So all the juice, it kind of steams in its own juice. Oh, my God. And is there a barbecue sauce on the side? We have, yeah, we got some barbecue sauce. And then, yeah, we have a lot of sauce from it to have on the side.

We do biscuit sandwiches and it's just, it's incredible. It's like, you know. Oh, my God. Yeah. So what about sweets? Do you go sweets during the holidays? Was it mostly just big man meat? No, it's big man meat, but I got to get out of the sweets.

And the sweets this year, I almost sent you something. Are you familiar with, I think we talked about it, what's it called, that app where you can get the best food from anywhere around the country. Oh, yeah, yeah. Gold belly. Right, right. Oh, no. What did you do? Well, so here's the thing.

It's like a challenge. Right. You know, I find something. I send it to you. I'm going to do this, actually. I'll send you what, and I'll tell you right now what it is. So I love a good carrot cake. Love a good carrot cake.

That's my fave. Oh, my God. Well, the best carrot cake in the world is this place called Lloyd's in New York. And a little place in Brooklyn. And it's been covered on the news. This guy apparently, he and his buddy, his buddies used to come over years and years and years ago. And he would make them carrot cake. And they just said, this is the greatest thing ever.

He has since passed away, but his wife is carrying on the recipe. They have a little shop. Whoa. They are exploding, exploding on Gold Island. I send it to JJ, my buddy. He sent it to, this is another guy where I'm doing a documentary with. I send it to Glenn. Glenn then sent it to another.

It's like this thing where it's the challenge. I'm going to send you one. Oh, my God. You're going to, it's the greatest carrot cake. Oh, it's amazing. Oh, I can't wait. All right. So last question.

What, how much weight do you think you gain between Thanksgiving and the new year? Well, as soon as this thing hit, I put on the COVID-19. I think that's what I call it COVID-19. Because I put on, and I've been. biking so i've definitely been balancing it out i think i lost about 20 oh nice during the holidays i think i've put on probably another 10 pounds of just yeah you know sheer um joy he's proffered sure joy right all that's good thing right oh that's amazing all right well i can't wait to uh i'll call you offline we'll we'll catch up and plot our return back to uh to uh to the world when

like it's under control. It was so great talking to you. You too. And I need your address offline. I think I have it, but confirm it with me because I'm sending you a carrot cake. Just what you need during the January resolution run. Exactly. I'll send it immediately. That's my New Year's resolution is to get my 10 pounds off of me and onto you. I knew who I was calling. Perfect. All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Okay.

Tell me, if we can, if we can nerd out a little bit, because this is talk about being humbled. Talk to me about the use of rye flour, because that, I just started playing around with rye, and that's a whole different creature. So let me set the stage here. I view Mycraft as the crossroads, the encounter, or even maybe the metamorphosis, grains through fermentation to bake. And so the consequence of that is I'd love in the years to come for bakers, with the professional or home bakers, or in the general language,

to stop using the word flour to generically mean, whether it's wheat flour or whatnot, but just not to mention what is, the grain you're working with. And that realization is what helped me really shift my view and understanding of my craft as that metamorphosis grains and fermentation. And so at Poiland, we've been baking using wheat flour and rye flour for historical reasons. These are two grains that you find in France quite widely.

wheat has more gluten than rye and rye is traditionally found in poorer in regions where the soil is poorer or harsher it's not a grain that's very highly regarded because it's very thick sticky heavy it's one that people enjoy especially in the winter with seafood associate with fish. But having a mother that was born in Eastern Europe, I actually realized that I love rye flour. I love rye flour because for me, it's got some smells,

some flowery, I mean, sorry, floral sense, and it's got a chew that is very different and one that I really appreciate. It is, in some ways, it can help working breads with rye flour

can be harder at some stages of baking or easier. I think broadly speaking it's not necessarily the easiest grain to work with because it doesn't have

as much ryes because it has less gluten than wheat flour. But I think that it's worth it's worth a trip because the flavors and and you know in the learning experience of how that grain reacts and how that

flower is yeah is something that's beautiful it's uh my grandfather was my one grandfather was from germany and so they always had a little more of the darker breads and the rise yeah they're like the pumper nickels exactly yeah and when i started playing with it i was like the same thing that you're saying, like that sensation was like, oh, this is familiar in some way. And I tried using, I think, too much rye. So it became very unmanageable. It was hard to shape and deal with. So then I just started playing around with cutting it back a little bit and putting it in the mixture with these other grains.

And, oh, but man, there's something so satisfying about that grain. Yeah, yeah. And especially like, so over the years, I've developed a collection of cookies at the bakery. They're Sables. So they're this Normandy sandy textured cookie that has where each cookie has a different grain. And in my journeys, and this stems from testing and trying with different grains. grains and getting to see the very unique flavors, which each one boosts, the inequalities that each one has. And it's what it is about rye is, I mean, it's really an incredible grain.

Whether it's in sweets or savory confections, it's, it's one that I have a sweet spot for, not only for, because it's one that I'm familiar with, but also one because that intrinsically has just an awesome taste. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm excited because deep in, that's your next, the next recipe in your book is the rye.

So I'm like, oh, now I get to go do that one. That's such a treat. How are things going for you now during this shift with the bakeries? And you're dealing with the same struggles that we are here in the States. Are you guys fair? are your workers okay? We are incredibly fortunate at the bakery, whether in Paris or London, that we are able to stay open

as essential businesses. We try and really focus on nurturing whatever we can do for the community, starting with the teams. And whether it's France or the UK, both countries have undergone lockdowns. And so we've been able to operate, but we also have an appreciation of the importance of being attentive to our gestures and responsibility to some extent of feeding the community. So whether it's bread, cookies, or baker's pastries,

I think that I have a sense of pride, but also my teams have that task and pride themselves of baking bread that feeds the community of Parisians, of Londoners, of friends, of friends. French people and worldwide, we ship worldwide if you go on our website. So it's, it really is both something that's very unique and very fulfilling, but something that is also that beautiful connection. Yeah. And it's amazing that you're able to have that reach and become really a large company, but have that heart still attached to it. That's not an easy task.

And I think it really is attributed to you because you're the heart and soul of it. And it's very easy for people to kind of sell out and move along and not be that attentive to the craft and to what they're doing. But you can tell that from what you're doing, that it permeates through the whole company. And these people have got to be very grateful

that they're able to still get this process, especially now, that familiar, that they can still go, they end up relying on you, which I hate to put all this responsibility on you, but it really is meaningful to people to be able to go in and get the thing that they get all the time, especially when their lives are a little more stressful. Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's the bread itself, because it's these big hugs of bread that keep, that will feed you, that nurture your body and soul. And it's the heritage of an 88-year-old sourdough, started by my grandfather in 1932 in the heart of Paris.

It's how my father confronted with the classic, I'm growing and need to develop my business, dilemma of quantity over quality and him choosing quality. But his response was not only about saying it, it was also realizing that his craft allowed for a very unique approach where each bakery or each bakehouse has one baker that works on their batch from start to finish. And that makes not only for, for, quality control, but also for the scaling of our baking or production of breads by having 24 ovens one next to the other at our manufacture right outside of Paris. And because he had to think about that, my father also thought about the way he was

teaching our bakers how to bake breads and therefore how to, how to develop that into our own unique apprenticeship system. And that explains where we are at today and how we are able to bake loaves, but yet never compromise on quality because behind every loaf you have in your hands, there's one baker that hand-shaped it and then drew a pea, which is ultimately their signature and their handwriting.

Beautiful. Well, I'm going to work really hard on trying to perfect the pee because my name is Papa, so the pee is appropriate. You need to ask 100%. And as soon as this is all over and I can take my passport out of my closet, I'm going to get on a plane and I'm going to come and give you a hug and a big thing. Thank you because it's been a real pleasure that you're doing this and that you continue to do what you do in your master class in the book. It's all so exciting that I just, I can't wait to meet you in person someday.

We can't wait to meet you too and share bread, share a tartine, slather it with butter, go and visit the bakehouse. That would be beautiful. I can't wait for the world to open up again and sharing more bread. it'll be great thank you so much for being here thank you tom holiday season likewise best wishes for the holidays to you and to everybody listening all right take care bye that was great thank you so much you're welcome um you welcome are you doing a lot of these now are you are you exhausted by interviews no no no no i'm not and i should actually let me just um my my my partner

set up the video tonight. And I know he loves, he loves, he loves your work a lot. So Sudeep and I look forward to greeting, to greeting you in the big house when you, when you can make it to Paris. I can't wait. Take care. Thank you so much. Okay, everybody, that's it for the big show.

We want to thank our good friend Greg Grunberg. and of course, Apollonia, Palan. I hope you guys all had a good time. Take care of yourself. Make something good. Listen to something funny and enjoy your life. And we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.